What's new

On This Day: February 9, 2013 - Afzal Guru was hanged in Tihar Jail

UN resolution allow India to keep its army in Kashmir but asks Pakistan to withdraw from it.Then plebicite can be held there.

Do you think Pakistan has a role in Kashmir?If yes then any talks of plebicite has been waived off by Pakistan.If no then Pakistan has no job staying in Kashmir.

There were not 600k army men in Kashmir before Pakistan sent its terrorists into Kashmir.So as soon as militancy stops Army will withdraw.

Afzal has admitted that he HELPED PEOPLE ATTACK the Parliament and kill 9 people.Their main motive was to take PM and MPs hostage.So if an Indian helps someone achieve that objective then thats treason and for that death sentence is applicable.

blah,blah,blah ....So what ? does your argument prove that Kashmir is not a disputed territory....

How long will it take to end insurgency?perhaps a a century more,already 2 and half decades have past...Why can not Pakistan send terrorists to other parts of India ..

Then why not death to Narendra Modi for helping terrorists in Gujrat massacre..?
 
I am against Capital punishment but there is a Capital punishment in India.

He went through the entire process and was awarded the punishment. What do people expect ? just leave him becase he was poor?

We can get rid of Capital punishment by changing the law and not by ignoring our judiciary verdicts. I will be happy to get rid of capital punishment but as long as it is there the court has to follow it and the enforcement people need to obey it.
 
Question for those who validate his action due to Kashmir as disputed terrotory.

If a pundit goes and blasts in Pakistan parliament, will Pakistan punish him or leave him as he is from Kashmir and was oppressed due to dispute ?
 
I am against Capital punishment but there is a Capital punishment in India.

He went through the entire process and was awarded the punishment. What do people expect ? just leave him becase he was poor?

We can get rid of Capital punishment by changing the law and not by ignoring our judiciary verdicts. I will be happy to get rid of capital punishment but as long as it is there the court has to follow it and the enforcement people need to obey it.

The point is not Afzal Guru's guilt. Its the quantum of punishment meted out to him. Its a fact that the Supreme Court admitted they only have 'circumstantial evidence' against the man. So how can you hang a man - the rarest of rare punishments in the Indian judicial system - on circumstantial evidence? The death penalty was a politically motivated judgment. The SC judges did not do an honorable thing by pushing the whole thing on to the citizens of India, claiming he must be executed to soothe our 'conscience.'
 
The point is not Afzal Guru's guilt. Its the quantum of punishment meted out to him. Its a fact that the Supreme Court admitted they only have 'circumstantial evidence' against the man. So how can you hang a man - the rarest of rare punishments in the Indian judicial system - on circumstantial evidence? The death penalty was a politically motivated judgment. The SC judges did not do an honorable thing by pushing the whole thing on to the citizens of India, claiming he must be executed to soothe our 'conscience.'
Neither you nor me has the entire picture on what process he went through. (during his trial)

He didn't get convicted in one court. He went though 3 courts and then to presidential review. The process is same for all.

The justice doesn't happen on forums and it is left to the court to decide. Are you saying we are supposed to decide his quantum of punishment on forums by posters?

The judiciary is the organisation which follows some laws and rules and if they find it appropriate everyone has to accept it.
 
Garuda what is this gibberish you are chatting about.
Firstly you are either are for or against the death penalty. Period. What is this rubbish middle ground you talk about following the Indian judicial process which like Pakistan's system has so much flaws and corruption riddled with it.

Anyway I am not questioning whether this individual was guilty or not it's the fact it stinks of political opportunasim by the Indian government.
Even the BJP Indian administered Kashmir leader Omar Abdullah has voiced big question marks on the timing.

And as we know another kid shot in Kashmir. But you will se no reporting of this let alone condemnation by the Indian media or the same gung ho nationalists here.
 
Neither you nor me has the entire picture on what process he went through. (during his trial)

He didn't get convicted in one court. He went though 3 courts and then to presidential review. The process is same for all.

The justice doesn't happen on forums and it is left to the court to decide. Are you saying we are supposed to decide his quantum of punishment on forums by posters?

The judiciary is the organisation which follows some laws and rules and if they find it appropriate everyone has to accept it.

Both of us have access to the entire picture. Read the judgment in full here:

http://www.outlookindia.com/articlefullwidth.aspx?228136

Justice doesn't happens on forums. But justice can be and should be debated on forums online and off-line. I am trying to understand why a man who abetted terrorism (but did not pull the trigger) is hanged while two men who had raped and murdered a 12 year old girl are given presidential pardons on their death sentences. Why a man who facilitated the logistics that led to a terror attack is executed while a man who facilitated a communal riot is projected as a future PM.

As for your assertion: "The judiciary is the organisation which follows some laws and rules and if they find it appropriate everyone has to accept it." I'm sorry I do not agree. That is slave mentality. The corruption in the Indian Judiciary is not a secret. Judicial probity, like everything else, can be bought, has been bought before and will be bought in the future. Therefore their judgments in such politically loaded cases are always suspect.
 
Both of us have access to the entire picture. Read the judgment in full here:

http://www.outlookindia.com/articlefullwidth.aspx?228136

Justice doesn't happens on forums. But justice can be and should be debated on forums online and off-line. I am trying to understand why a man who abetted terrorism (but did not pull the trigger) is hanged while two men who had raped and murdered a 12 year old girl are given presidential pardons on their death sentences. Why a man who facilitated the logistics that led to a terror attack is executed while a man who facilitated a communal riot is projected as a future PM.
Yes, you can discuss and disagree. There are N number of decisions which many feel injustice. Every decision is not going to make everyone happy.


As for your assertion: "The judiciary is the organisation which follows some laws and rules and if they find it appropriate everyone has to accept it." I'm sorry I do not agree. That is slave mentality. The corruption in the Indian Judiciary is not a secret. Judicial probity, like everything else, can be bought, has been bought before and will be bought in the future. Therefore their judgments in such politically loaded cases are always suspect.

The laws are not currupt. There will be currupt people every where.

What are you trying to day here? Some currupt person disrespect the law and announced the death penalty ?

Can you prove it?

If that is the case why he got the same punishment in all 3 courts ? There are many lawyers and people familiar with IPC and they were open to challenge the verdict in last 7 years.

Why shouting now after 7 years when the judgement is implemented?

Now don't tell me that every lawyer and person knowing law in India are currupted.
 
Garuda what is this gibberish you are chatting about.
Firstly you are either are for or against the death penalty. Period. What is this rubbish middle ground you talk about following the Indian judicial process which like Pakistan's system has so much flaws and corruption riddled with it.

Anyway I am not questioning whether this individual was guilty or not it's the fact it stinks of political opportunasim by the Indian government.
Even the BJP Indian administered Kashmir leader Omar Abdullah has voiced big question marks on the timing. (anyway Omar is not from BJP)

And as we know another kid shot in Kashmir. But you will se no reporting of this let alone condemnation by the Indian media or the same gung ho nationalists here.
There is no middle groud.

I am against death penalty. Period.








But the court is not going to decide on what I am for and against. Right ?

It will decide what is available to it as per the current law. As per current law, death pentalty is available to the judges as per their assessment of the case. And they will award it to the case where it is suitable.

If we want death penalty to be stopped, then we need to demand it to be removed from the law. Which means the judges won't have that punishment available to them.

What I am objecting is people who feel he shouldn't have got the punishment.

There is a lot of politics about the timings of the execution. No doubt about that and I have the same feeling. (Again Omar is not form BJP)
 
Last edited:
i dont see why people have a problem with the policies of aurangzeb following this assasination
 
I just read the Wiki of Afzal Guru and he is a true dumbo..

He finished his 1st yr of MBBS (Doctor) and then left everything for Jihad. Got trained in Pak Kashmir and came back to do Jihad in India.. :facepalm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzal_Guru


A potential Doctor who could serve his people has finally ended up as a terrorist and is finally dead :facepalm:
 
I just read the Wiki of Afzal Guru and he is a true dumbo..

He finished his 1st yr of MBBS (Doctor) and then left everything for Jihad. Got trained in Pak Kashmir and came back to do Jihad in India.. :facepalm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzal_Guru


A potential Doctor who could serve his people has finally ended up as a terrorist and is finally dead :facepalm:

Lot of dumbos out there, some of them even think wiki is divine and all-encompassing ;)
 
This thread truly exposes indians for what they really are.
 
I just read the Wiki of Afzal Guru and he is a true dumbo..

He finished his 1st yr of MBBS (Doctor) and then left everything for Jihad. Got trained in Pak Kashmir and came back to do Jihad in India.. :facepalm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afzal_Guru


A potential Doctor who could serve his people has finally ended up as a terrorist and is finally dead :facepalm:

the 700,000+ army of rapists, murderers in Occupied Kashmir............are they dumb or what???

they could be doing more useful things rather than oppressing, murdering, raping and God knows what....
 
Re: Afzal Guru hanged: Curfew declared in Kashmir valley

blah,blah,blah ....So what ? does your argument prove that Kashmir is not a disputed territory....

How long will it take to end insurgency?perhaps a a century more,already 2 and half decades have past...Why can not Pakistan send terrorists to other parts of India ..

Then why not death to Narendra Modi for helping terrorists in Gujrat massacre..?



Again.Prove Narendra Modi waa responsible for the riots.

How long will it take insurgency to be checked?Well thats unknown.

why cant Pakistan send terrorists to other parts?What do you think happened in Mumbai?

Kashmir disputed or not well depemds upon how you see it.

AFAIK most countries in the world has come accept it as a part of India.There were no problems in Kashmir till Pakistan started pushing terrorists in Kashmir.So i guess the problems in Kashmir stems from one and one country only.And because that country has failed to defeat India in a one on one war it is now using proxies to create trouble in Kashmir and keep the dispute alive when the dispute wants to die away.Twice in 1965 and 1971 Kashmiris helped defeat Pakistan.
 
Again.Prove Narendra Modi waa responsible for the riots.

How long will it take insurgency to be checked?Well thats unknown.

why cant Pakistan send terrorists to other parts?What do you think happened in Mumbai?

Kashmir disputed or not well depemds upon how you see it.

AFAIK most countries in the world has come accept it as a part of India.There were no problems in Kashmir till Pakistan started pushing terrorists in Kashmir.So i guess the problems in Kashmir stems from one and one country only.And because that country has failed to defeat India in a one on one war it is now using proxies to create trouble in Kashmir and keep the dispute alive when the dispute wants to die away.Twice in 1965 and 1971 Kashmiris helped defeat Pakistan.

Did you just imagine that part or do you have proof?
 
Whether terrorist training part is true or false, he surely could have been a Doctor.

Only a person who aspired to be a doctor but couldn't can say that :) Different people have different goals and aspirations and they change over the period of time... get over you lame desi thinking of doctore or IAS thing
 
Again.Prove Narendra Modi waa responsible for the riots.

How long will it take insurgency to be checked?Well thats unknown.

why cant Pakistan send terrorists to other parts?What do you think happened in Mumbai?

Kashmir disputed or not well depemds upon how you see it.

AFAIK most countries in the world has come accept it as a part of India.There were no problems in Kashmir till Pakistan started pushing terrorists in Kashmir.So i guess the problems in Kashmir stems from one and one country only.And because that country has failed to defeat India in a one on one war it is now using proxies to create trouble in Kashmir and keep the dispute alive when the dispute wants to die away.Twice in 1965 and 1971 Kashmiris helped defeat Pakistan.

Almost all nations see it as either occupied or disputed territory. The majority of people living there don't see it as part of India, never have and never will Mr Modi.

It's not rocket science. Stop raping, torturing, murdering, oppressing people who never wanted to live under your rule and they may just leave you alone from their stones or their attacks those who order their abuses. You won't get it though.
 
Again.Prove Narendra Modi waa responsible for the riots.

How long will it take insurgency to be checked?Well thats unknown.

why cant Pakistan send terrorists to other parts?What do you think happened in Mumbai?

Kashmir disputed or not well depemds upon how you see it.

AFAIK most countries in the world has come accept it as a part of India.There were no problems in Kashmir till Pakistan started pushing terrorists in Kashmir.So i guess the problems in Kashmir stems from one and one country only.And because that country has failed to defeat India in a one on one war it is now using proxies to create trouble in Kashmir and keep the dispute alive when the dispute wants to die away.Twice in 1965 and 1971 Kashmiris helped defeat Pakistan.

I know you have a habit of arguing over nothing...Its your people who are saying that trial was not free and fair at all...as the trial of Modi was never fair...
Lol..Whole world knows,including Americans who do not allow him to travel into their country..how can i prove it,it is job of your government and justice system...but they can not prove for the reasons that he is not a Muslim Kashmiri and he is populor Hindu...

Yep,remember what happened in Mumbai..See the difference of 2.5 decade of army rule vs few hours of operation...You can clearly see the difference when foreign terrorists attack a city and when local Kashmiri people demand their right to self determination...

Most countries are part of UN and according to UN Kashmir is a disputed territory..Plz stop being so ignorant now....
 
Last edited:
Like all other protest these will die down too. Rest of the world just doesn't care about Kashmir. No oil there.
 
Why do the Pakistanis want Kashmir? Don't they have enough geographical headaches as it is?

Masochism.
 
Not sure why so much debate on this topic? A person who attacks parliament, should be killed immidiately. Guru is lucky to have survived for so long.
 
Almost all nations see it as either occupied or disputed territory. The majority of people living there don't see it as part of India, never have and never will Mr Modi.

It's not rocket science. Stop raping, torturing, murdering, oppressing people who never wanted to live under your rule and they may just leave you alone from their stones or their attacks those who order their abuses. You won't get it though.

One billion Indians think kashmir theirs in its entirety. One billion Chinese initially offered help to Pakistan have distanced themselves. US has asked to respect LOC. Kashmir issue is out of UN for last 40 + years (way more than half the life of UN)...
So opinions of nations which matter have either sidelined or trying to sideline the matter.....
Do you think anyone gives a toss about what rest of world think?
 
Nice timing BTW, when Kashmiris celebrate the martyrdom of Maqbool Bhat India gives them chance to have another one.
 
One billion Indians think kashmir theirs in its entirety.

No shhh genius. It's very clear from the Indian posters on here and the Indian public not only consider Kashmir as theirs but don't even condemn the rape and murder of children by their heroic army.

One billion Chinese initially offered help Pakistan have distanced themselves. US has asked to respect LOC. Kashmir issue is out of UN for last 40 + years (way more than half the life of UN)...
So opinions of nations which matter have either sidelined or trying to sideline the matter.....
Do you think anyone gives a toss about what rest of world think?

LOL. China and the US along with most of the world see Kashmir as disputed land not Indian land. They probably don't teach you these facts in Indian schools. :sachin
 
Only a person who aspired to be a doctor but couldn't can say that :) Different people have different goals and aspirations and they change over the period of time... get over you lame desi thinking of doctore or IAS thing

So his aspiration was to attack Parliament and get hanged for it :))

Please man. There are several ways to express protest against Indian occupation in Kashmir. Attacking Parliament with a gun is surely not one of them.

If anything, this guy Afzal Guru is a dumbo. Whats with Guru in his name. Guru is supposed to be a learned man, a teacher.

Nobody attacks Parliament building with a gun and expects to survive.
 
No shhh genius. It's very clear from the Indian posters on here and the Indian public not only consider Kashmir as theirs but don't even condemn the rape and murder of children by their heroic army.
Their were some collateral damages in early nineties but Indian army has come a long way since then in targeting terrorist. It has incorporated lessons learned in its war against Pakistan sponsored terrorism...

However do you know that we have lost over 66K innocent civilians due to terrorism?
Had it not been Indian army/police/paramilitary protecting us, Pakistani sponsored terrorism would brought India and Indians on its knees.

Terrorist attack are directly against Indian civilians? Why kill Indian civilians? Dont tell me that brilliant brains of Pakistan cant find a solution to bring India on table without using them Terrorist....



LOL. China and the US along with most of the world see Kashmir as disputed land not Indian land. They probably don't teach you these facts in Indian schools. :sachin

So does India. We want our territory back. So diplomatic position of most nations is right there. You must understand that, no one is coming to bat for you....
 
Their were some collateral damages in early nineties but Indian army has come a long way since then in targeting terrorist. It has incorporated lessons learned in its war against Pakistan sponsored terrorism...

However do you know that we have lost over 66K innocent civilians due to terrorism?
Had it not been Indian army/police/paramilitary protecting us, Pakistani sponsored terrorism would brought India and Indians on its knees.

Terrorist attack are directly against Indian civilians? Why kill Indian civilians? Dont tell me that brilliant brains of Pakistan cant find a solution to bring India on table without using them Terrorist....

No I don't know. How about you show some evidence to prove 66k innocent people in India have been killed by Pakistani sponsored terrorism. Take your time.


So does India. We want our territory back. So diplomatic position of most nations is right there. You must understand that, no one is coming to bat for you....

I'm glad you have accepted reality, the majority of the world sees Kashmir as not belonging to India. It's not your territory and people want freedom, it';s time you accept this as well.
 
No I don't know. How about you show some evidence to prove 66k innocent people in India have been killed by Pakistani sponsored terrorism. Take your time.
We know we arent America.. Even with America their was a theory that 9/11 was sponsored by CIA itself... All the evidences are Pakistans word against Indians (Shimala Agreement). Same is true to all the charges you mentioned...

So what point in begging rest of world that pakistan is behaving rogue. Rest of world allready knows it....
And finally? Show it to whom? Pakistan? And why? We have right to defend our borders and citizens.

I'm glad you have accepted reality, the majority of the world sees Kashmir as not belonging to India. It's not your territory and people want freedom, it';s time you accept this as well.
LOL which world sees that? Or you are just having fun with words.. I can make similar general statement.
Apart from Pakistan rest of world doesn't think that Kashmir do not belongs to India...
 
Please don't waste my time.

Prove 66k innocent Indians have been killed by Pak sponsored terrorism as you claimed.

Most nations around the world accept the UN resolution which calls for a plebiscite because it's disputed land, this is a fact pal not playing with words.
 
Please don't waste my time.

Prove 66k innocent Indians have been killed by Pak sponsored terrorism as you claimed.
What part you are disputing at? Pak sposnoorship? Or casualities?

Most nations around the world accept the UN resolution which calls for a plebiscite because it's disputed land, this is a fact pal not playing with words.

No... Most of the world says India and Pakistan should resolve their differences bilaterally. Pakistan rejected plebiscite. UN legislation expired once no agreement was reached for 15 years. Case is out of UN since last 45+ years
 
Last edited:
What part you are disputing at? Pak sposnoorship? Or casualities?

How hard is this to understand?

Please prove 66k people were murdered by Pak sponsored terrorism as you claimed.

No... Most of the world says India and Pakistan should resolve their differences bilaterally. Pakistan rejected plebiscite. UN legislation expired once no agreement was reached for 15 years. Case is out of UN since last 45+ years

lol the Resolution is still valid and Pakistan hasn't rejected the plebiscite. In fact the PM only discussed this a few days ago.

Addressing an official function organised tonight to mark Kashmir Solidarity Day, which has been observed by Islamabad on February 5 since 1990, Ashraf said Pakistan has always supported dialogue with the Indian government as wars are not a solution to problems.

Pakistan wants "good and peaceful relations with all its neighbours", he told a gathering of political leaders and federal ministers.

Noting that UN resolutions called for a plebiscite in Kashmir, he alleged India had "forcefully occupied" the region and was ruling it against the wishes of the Kashmiri people.

Ashraf was also quoted by state-run Radio Pakistan as saying that "unfortunately India demonstrated intransigence for resolution" of the Kashmir issue.

He claimed that a "plebiscite is the right way to give the Kashmiris their right to self-determination".

http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=789003

Please don't throw down these 70mph long hops and waste my time.
 
How hard is this to understand?

Please prove 66k people were murdered by Pak sponsored terrorism as you claimed.



lol the Resolution is still valid and Pakistan hasn't rejected the plebiscite. In fact the PM only discussed this a few days ago.



http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=789003

Please don't throw down these 70mph long hops and waste my time.

First, India dont need to prove Pakistan sponsoring terrorism to anyone. Because its bilateral issue. So its your words against ours. Just because India isnt ready to go to US or UK to tell off Pakistan doesnt freally mean it doesnt have the stats.....


On second part... Asharaful needs to take history lessons and honour commitments previous government has made. Below is copied passage hopefully that wil enlighten you
On January 1, 1948, India sought assistance from the United Nations Security Council by filing a complaint alleging Pakistan had illicitly provided assistance to Kashmiri insurgents
India promised to settle the issue of final accession of Kashmir in accordance with the wishes of the people, but only after the invaders had been displaced from the region.23 Pakistan weighed in with a counter-complaint denying any wrong doing and challenging the validity of Kashmir’s accession to India and India’s military presence in the region.24 The U.N. never directly addressed the issues raised in India’s complaint, but instead responded by adopting a resolution establishing the United Nations Commission on India and Pakistan (UNCIP).


International attempts at mediation were a failure. The first United Nations
Representative in India and Pakistan (UNRIP) appointed to mediate the dispute was Sir Owen Dixon, an Australian jurist. Dixon’s suggestion of conducting a plebiscite regionally, rather than on a state-wide basis was rejected. A year later, Frank Graham, an American diplomat, took Dixon’s place. The UNSC proposed a reduction in military presence by both sides on December 23, 1952, which was accepted by Pakistan and rejected by India. The last serious UNRIP effort to find a solution was Graham’s proposal of February 14, 1953 which was rejected by both
sides.35 Mediation attempts continued to focus on creating optimal conditions for plebiscite,

The Present State of the India-Pakistan Relationship: the Simla Agreement
The Simla Agreement provides the most recent legal articulation of viable dispute
resolution techniques
for the Kashmir issue.
And terrorism, Kargil is Pakistans way of creating optimum condition
 
Last edited:
The resolution on Kashmir in UN wasnot binding.

Still,it asks Pakistan to remove its forces from Kashmir,but allows India to keep its.So first get your damn Army out.Hand over POK to UN and then ask India to carry out plebicite.

Your own leaders in 1971 shimla agreement and 1999 Lahore declaration has agreed that plebicite is not an option.

If other countries or the world or UN would view Kashmir as not being part of India,there would be sanctions on India.Kashmiris wont be allowed to travel on Indian passports etc etc etc.

Last time i checked it was only Pakistan who cried KAshmir,with CHina giving the occasional shoulder to cry.
 
First, India dont need to prove Pakistan sponsoring terrorism to anyone. Because its bilateral issue. So its your words against ours. Just because India isnt ready to go to US or UK to tell off Pakistan doesnt freally mean it doesnt have the stats.....


On second part... Asharaful needs to take history lessons and honour commitments previous government has made. Below is copied passage hopefully that wil enlighten you

And terrorism, Kargil is Pakistans way of creating optimum condition

Pakistan has broken every agreement on Kashmir.

1947 StandStill agreement which was enshrined in the Indian Independence Act

1948 Ceasefire agreement

1971 Shimla Agreement

1999 Lahore Declaration

And they think anyone will take their offer of peace seriously?

If they have peace with India,how will their Army get 20% of the budget and live in Luxury???
 
First, India dont need to prove Pakistan sponsoring terrorism to anyone. Because its bilateral issue. So its your words against ours. Just because India isnt ready to go to US or UK to tell off Pakistan doesnt freally mean it doesnt have the stats.....

:)) You really can't be this........

I'm only asking you to prove what YOU wrote to ME.

You claimed 66k Indian innocent people have been killed by Pakistan sponsored terrorism but have provided no evidence, because you made that up. :)


On second part... Asharaful needs to take history lessons and honour commitments previous government has made. Below is copied passage hopefully that wil enlighten you

And terrorism, Kargil is Pakistans way of creating optimum condition

Ashraful is a 5ft Bangladeshi batsmen, the PM of Pakistan is Ashraf. I'm done with you unless you can back up your claims.
 
The resolution on Kashmir in UN wasnot binding.

Still,it asks Pakistan to remove its forces from Kashmir,but allows India to keep its.So first get your damn Army out.Hand over POK to UN and then ask India to carry out plebicite.

Your own leaders in 1971 shimla agreement and 1999 Lahore declaration has agreed that plebicite is not an option.

Forget history the PM only a few days ago talked about the plebiscite. This is Pakistan's official view as posted above.

Pakistan is willing to do whatever it can but India has to first agree to hold a vote. It;s a bit idiotic Indians claiming Pakistan isn't doing it's bit when India doesn't want to offer the right to chose to the Kashmiri's.

If other countries or the world or UN would view Kashmir as not being part of India,there would be sanctions on India.Kashmiris wont be allowed to travel on Indian passports etc etc etc.


You're the guy who claimed this.

AFAIK most countries in the world has come accept it as a part of India.

:)) Either you're deluded or you can back up this claim.

Last time i checked it was only Pakistan who cried KAshmir,with CHina giving the occasional shoulder to cry.

Irrelevant , even if nobody voiced opposition to rape, murder and torture of Kashmiri's it still would be a crime against humanity.
 
On one hand Pakistan preached kashmiris as free independent Kashmir while on the other hand they disbanded JKLF as soon as they realised that JKLF was interested in a Kashmir that is not part of India, Nor part of Pakistan but a tryly independent country.
Instead they created smaller militant units which can never be considered big enough contender to be invited in serious bilateral/trilateral discussion.
All this talks of FREEDOM /FREE Kashmir UN resolutionand terrorist training camps is only resulting in loss of civilian lives both within valley and outside of the Valley.
 
So,you want to go back in history......

have a look at the BBC one article linked in its South Asia section and linked to historical issues of Kashmir issue;

"Exactly when Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession has been hotly debated for over 50 years. Official Indian accounts state that in the early hours of the morning of 26 October, Hari Singh fled from Srinagar, arriving in Jammu later in the day, where he was met by V P Menon, representative of Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, and signed the Instrument of Accession.

On the morning of 27 October, Indian troops were airlifted into Srinagar.

Recent research, from British sources, has indicated that Hari Singh did not reach Jammu until the evening of 26 October and that, due to poor flying conditions, V P Menon was unable to get to Jammu until the morning of 27 October , by which time Indian troops were already arriving in Srinagar.

In order to support the thesis that the Maharaja acceded before Indian troops landed, Indian sources have now suggested that Hari Singh signed an Instrument of Accession before he left Srinagar but that it was not made public until later.

This was because Hari Singh had not yet agreed to include the Kashmiri leader, Sheikh Abdullah, in his future government. To date no authentic original document has been made available.

Pakistan immediately contested the accession, suggesting that it was fraudulent, that the Maharaja acted under duress and that he had no right to sign an agreement with India when the standstill agreement with Pakistan was still in force.

Pakistanis also argued that because Hari Singh fled from the valley of Kashmir , he was not in control of his state and therefore not in a position to take a decision on behalf of his people.""

Further, as stated earlier, during partition plan of Punjab, havoc was wrecked during distribution of Distt Gurdaspur and its only one Tehsil Shakargarh (51 % Muslim) was given to Pakistan while other two Muslim majority Tehsils Batalla and Gurdaspur (51 & 53 % Muslim majority) were given to India just to make a link of Kashmir to India, they had already in mind to grab the Kashmir at the middle of 1947. The events which followed in other states are clear to proof that it was India which severed the Kashmir.....



We can just have a general idea of some of major conflict states; as per that independence formula, a princely state is having three options i) to remain independent ii) to accede to India iii) to accede to Pakistan. For exercising second or third option, the country had to take into consideration its communal factor and contiguity/geographical linkages.

Junagadh; accedes to Pakistan because its leader was Muslim, and it can take link to Pakistan through sea. Pakistan accepts the request and it is now part of Pakistan. India attacks it and says its majority of population is not Muslim so it should be part of India. After some months, India also holds a plebiscite to make its action justified. Request of Pakistan to UN against such attack never been taken further. [events started in September (16 or 17 Sept) 1947 and completed on 9 November, 1947]

Hyderabad: A big and economically viable state with around 46-48 % Muslim population, and its Nawab says it want to remain independent, but invaded by India on the plea that its majority is non-Muslim and its geographically intact by India. [events range from August 1947 to September 1948]

Kashmir: 77% population is Muslim, geographically attached by Pakistan, linked with India through Gurdaspur by verdict of Boundary Commission of Redcliffe. Its leader, having fear of mutiny by its subjects, says he want to keep independent status of the state. Later mutiny is started and he make a formal request on October 26 and very next day India attacks and battle is started). India went to UN and UN decides for a plebiscite but the action was delayed etc. If India had been serious of plebiscite she could had simply asked the UN observers to do it, but India had a fear that it might result in a failure for her, she did not carry with any such thing and constitutionally made her part.

On the other hand, Pakistan has neither made Kashmir nor Gilgit Baltistan as its constitutional part and gave greater autonomy in shape of Interim Constitution to AJ&K whereby its own legislative assembly works and it has its own administrative structure of policy and district administration etc




Pakistan’s stance / policy regarding Kashmir is totally chaste,

1) Act upon the UNSC resolutions
2) Kashmiris should be given the rights to live according to their wishes.
3) Liberty to speak, to vote
Pakistan’s point of view is clear, Kashmiris deserve respectful lives, independence and fearless activities throughout their homeland
 
:)) You really can't be this........

I'm only asking you to prove what YOU wrote to ME.

You claimed 66k Indian innocent people have been killed by Pakistan sponsored terrorism but have provided no evidence, because you made that up. :)




Ashraful is a 5ft Bangladeshi batsmen, the PM of Pakistan is Ashraf. I'm done with you unless you can back up your claims.
That number is correct and has been published by Indian government . Only thing is I cant find it on net and Indian government website is worse designed so you cantmake out which one is for what. Will need to Google it a bit more.
On part of Pak sponsorship, We havent been able to prove Hafeez Saeeds involvement. forget about rest....

So am I. Because I know, you have allready forgotten the text i have put in there and will search ur PM Ashraf comment again :)
 


Forget history the PM only a few days ago talked about the plebiscite. This is Pakistan's official view as posted above.

Those are agreements between nations.Not posts made by anonymous posters.They are BINDING.

Pakistan is willing to do whatever it can but India has to first agree to hold a vote. It;s a bit idiotic Indians claiming Pakistan isn't doing it's bit when India doesn't want to offer the right to chose to the Kashmiri's.

UN resolution asks Pakistan Army to move out first.Talk of plebicite will come later after each and every Pandiit is brought back an rehabilitated properly.And All pakistan has done for Kashmir in last 65 years is spread terrorism and brought wars.

You're the guy who claimed this.

AFAIK most countries in the world has come accept it as a part of India.

:)) Either you're deluded or you can back up this claim.



Irrelevant , even if nobody voiced opposition to rape, murder and torture of Kashmiri's it still would be a crime against humanity.

Please show me which country apart from Pakistan or sometimes China has refused to treat Kashmiris as citizens of India or applied sanctions on India.

Keep up your delusions mate.
 
That number is correct and has been published by Indian government . Only thing is I cant find it on net and Indian government website is worse designed so you cantmake out which one is for what. Will need to Google it a bit more.
On part of Pak sponsorship, We havent been able to prove Hafeez Saeeds involvement. forget about rest....

So am I. Because I know, you have allready forgotten the text i have put in there and will search ur PM Ashraf comment again :)

I wouldn't trust a government that can't design a freaking website to have proofs on outrageous claims like these and you should do same.
 
Web designing is best way to prove how pathetic the Indian government is..... :bow:

So, you really think it's an official website? :asif

Also, we can talk about evidence the day you understand the difference between ''and'' and ''hence''.
 
Last edited:

So,you want to go back in history......

have a look at the BBC one article linked in its South Asia section and linked to historical issues of Kashmir issue;

"Exactly when Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession has been hotly debated for over 50 years. Official Indian accounts state that in the early hours of the morning of 26 October, Hari Singh fled from Srinagar, arriving in Jammu later in the day, where he was met by V P Menon, representative of Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, and signed the Instrument of Accession.

On the morning of 27 October, Indian troops were airlifted into Srinagar.

Recent research, from British sources, has indicated that Hari Singh did not reach Jammu until the evening of 26 October and that, due to poor flying conditions, V P Menon was unable to get to Jammu until the morning of 27 October , by which time Indian troops were already arriving in Srinagar.

In order to support the thesis that the Maharaja acceded before Indian troops landed, Indian sources have now suggested that Hari Singh signed an Instrument of Accession before he left Srinagar but that it was not made public until later.

This was because Hari Singh had not yet agreed to include the Kashmiri leader, Sheikh Abdullah, in his future government. To date no authentic original document has been made available.

Pakistan immediately contested the accession, suggesting that it was fraudulent, that the Maharaja acted under duress and that he had no right to sign an agreement with India when the standstill agreement with Pakistan was still in force.

Pakistanis also argued that because Hari Singh fled from the valley of Kashmir , he was not in control of his state and therefore not in a position to take a decision on behalf of his people.""

Further, as stated earlier, during partition plan of Punjab, havoc was wrecked during distribution of Distt Gurdaspur and its only one Tehsil Shakargarh (51 % Muslim) was given to Pakistan while other two Muslim majority Tehsils Batalla and Gurdaspur (51 & 53 % Muslim majority) were given to India just to make a link of Kashmir to India, they had already in mind to grab the Kashmir at the middle of 1947. The events which followed in other states are clear to proof that it was India which severed the Kashmir.....


We can just have a general idea of some of major conflict states; as per that independence formula, a princely state is having three options i) to remain independent ii) to accede to India iii) to accede to Pakistan. For exercising second or third option, the country had to take into consideration its communal factor and contiguity/geographical linkages.


1.Neither The Maharaja or his descendents have ever claimed that the instrument of accession was signed under duress nor have they disputed the signing of the document.So when two parties between whom the agreement happen have no problem,how come Pakistan a third party who has no job telling a ruler of a sovereign Kashmir what to do,raise an objection?

2.Lets suppose the Army reached Srinagar before the Maharaj signed the documents.Was the Army there againist the wishes of the ruler of the state?No it wasnt.It was there on the specific invitation of the legal ruler of that state.

3.Now Kashmir had decided to be an independent nation and according to the declaration of independence it was allowed to do so.Why did Pakistan violate that declaration and invade Kashmir,and then shamelessly claim the shade of that very declaration and ask Kashmir be given to it as its Muslim Majority.Kashmir was an independent nation,ruled by its Independent ruler.He made a decision to remain independent.But the greed of Pakistan(which had missed out on almost every big princely state out of the 565) came in and the problem started.

4.Look at India's map,we have a whole state Himachal Pradesh bordering Kashmir.And Pakistan should have asked for those Tehsils when the division was done and not put out consipracy theories later.



Junagadh; accedes to Pakistan because its leader was Muslim, and it can take link to Pakistan through sea. Pakistan accepts the request and it is now part of Pakistan. India attacks it and says its majority of population is not Muslim so it should be part of India. After some months, India also holds a plebiscite to make its action justified. Request of Pakistan to UN against such attack never been taken further. [events started in September (16 or 17 Sept) 1947 and completed on 9 November, 1947]

As i said.Read History.India didnot attack it.India just broke off its relations with Junagadh and sealed India's borders with Junagadh.Which a sovereign state is legally allowed to do.All of Junagadh's resources where depleted as it depended on India for everything.The Nawab made an appeal to Pakistan to provide the resources.Pakistan didnt.Revolt started among the the Junagadh people.The Nawab abdicated and made the Diwan the new Nawab and fled.The Diwan/New Nawab held a meeting with the Army and all prominent Junagadh people and then invited the Indian Army.Please provide a source that says Indian Army entered Junagadh without the permission of the new Nawab.



Hyderabad: A big and economically viable state with around 46-48 % Muslim population, and its Nawab says it want to remain independent, but invaded by India on the plea that its majority is non-Muslim and its geographically intact by India. [events range from August 1947 to September 1948]

The population of Hyderabad was 85% Hindu.Thats by the 1941 census.

The non agression/StandStill agreement that was enshrined in the Declaration of Independence signed by India and Pakistan said that neither country will invade a Princely state.That agreement was broken by Pakistan in 1947 when Pakistan invaded Kashmir.With Pakistan setting a precedence and breaking the agreement,India was no more bound by the agreement to not to attack Hyderabad.So it attacked Hyderabad and annexed it.



Kashmir: 77% population is Muslim, geographically attached by Pakistan, linked with India through Gurdaspur by verdict of Boundary Commission of Redcliffe. Its leader, having fear of mutiny by its subjects, says he want to keep independent status of the state. Later mutiny is started and he make a formal request on October 26 and very next day India attacks and battle is started). India went to UN and UN decides for a plebiscite but the action was delayed etc. If India had been serious of plebiscite she could had simply asked the UN observers to do it, but India had a fear that it might result in a failure for her, she did not carry with any such thing and constitutionally made her part.

On the other hand, Pakistan has neither made Kashmir nor Gilgit Baltistan as its constitutional part and gave greater autonomy in shape of Interim Constitution to AJ&K whereby its own legislative assembly works and it has its own administrative structure of policy and district administration etc

The radcliffe boundary commisions recommendations were agreed upon by both India and Pakistan.

The situation of Kashmir and its King and everything has been explained in details above.

The UN asked Pakistan to remove its Army but allowed India to keep its.So first get out of Kashmir hand POK to UN and then talk about plebicite.

Why did Pakistan push militants into Kashmir and chased away the Pandits?There by altering the demography for ever and making any plebicite impossible?

Only a tiny piece of Kashmiri land under Pakistan is called AZK.Rest is is a separate area called Gilgit Baltistan,some of which has been gifted to China by Pakistan.what a huge favour to Kashmiris.

AZK is Azad?How?AFAIK its citizens hold a Pakistani Passport.Why doesnt Pakistan hand it over to UN.Let UN protect AZK againist India.LOL NO.They wont ,i wonder why.




Pakistan’s stance / policy regarding Kashmir is totally chaste,

1) Act upon the UNSC resolutions
2) Kashmiris should be given the rights to live according to their wishes.
3) Liberty to speak, to vote
Pakistan’s point of view is clear, Kashmiris deserve respectful lives, independence and fearless activities throughout their homeland

Kashmir's King aceded to India.So if there are demands and compromises it will be made between Indians and Kashmiris.Pakistan is no one to have any demands in Kashmir.Maan na Maan main tera mehmaan.

First yourself act on UN resolutions.Infact they must get out of POK and hand it over to UN.

Secondly Pakistan in Shimla Agreement and LAhore Declaration has said Plebicite is not an option.

So stop making fools out of anyone.

Except some part of the first part i quoted,the rest is not from any BBC article.The english is very very dodgy to say the least.If it is please link me.
 
Last edited:
When Pakistanis want UNSC resolution to be applied,

Why don't they first ask Pakistani army to get out of Kashmir ? Isn't it a pre-requirement for plebiscite ?


If they are not going to go then why demand India to do plebiscite?
 
When Pakistanis want UNSC resolution to be applied,

Why don't they first ask Pakistani army to get out of Kashmir ? Isn't it a pre-requirement for plebiscite ?


If they are not going to go then why demand India to do plebiscite?

UNSC rules to be applied to Kaaafirs only.
 
So his aspiration was to attack Parliament and get hanged for it :))

Please man. There are several ways to express protest against Indian occupation in Kashmir. Attacking Parliament with a gun is surely not one of them.

If anything, this guy Afzal Guru is a dumbo. Whats with Guru in his name. Guru is supposed to be a learned man, a teacher.

Nobody attacks Parliament building with a gun and expects to survive.

lol you can just imagine things and think they are real... may be u got something called hallucinations

I can say it was you who attacked Parliament with a gun... how stupid would that sound if i don't have any proof.
 
May Allaah (SWT) hastens the Ghazwa-e-Hind mission to be successful, so my people from Kashmir can enjoy the freedom to exercise - have been denied for more than 60 years, Ameen!

May Allaah (SWT) guides the people - fueled with ignorance and ego, to the right path and teaches them to learn to love humanity, Ameen!

^ I am not surprised at the reaction here especially from the neighbor country. What good are money and education that can not teach the whole India to love the humanity at all?

Good news for the Muslim in Kashmir, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan that Ghazwa-e-Hind has been prophesied by none other than Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Insha'Allaah! one day, it will happen in front of our eyes. Be patient for a while, our Kashmiri brothers and sisters! Justice will be served whether in Earth or Hereafter, Ameen!
 
Last edited:
May Allaah (SWT) hastens the Ghazwa-e-Hind mission to be successful, so my people from Kashmir can enjoy the freedom to exercise - have been denied for more than 60 years, Ameen!

May Allaah (SWT) guides the people - fueled with ignorance and ego, to the right path and teaches them to learn to love humanity, Ameen!

^ I am not surprised at the reaction here especially from the neighbor country. What good are money and education that can not teach the whole India to love the humanity at all?

Good news for the Muslim in Kashmir, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan that Ghazwa-e-Hind has been prophesied by none other than Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Insha'Allaah! one day, it will happen in front of our eyes. Be patient for a while, our Kashmiri brothers and sisters! Justice will be served whether in Earth or Hereafter, Ameen!
Islam respects all other religions right ? Then why you want to conquer land belongs to another religion
 
Last edited:
.Why did Pakistan violate that declaration and invade Kashmir,and then shamelessly claim the shade of that very declaration and ask Kashmir be given to it as its Muslim Majority.Kashmir was an independent nation,ruled by its Independent ruler.He made a decision to remain independent.But the greed of Pakistan(which had missed out on almost every big princely state out of the 565) came in and the problem started.


The population of Hyderabad was 85% Hindu.Thats by the 1941 census.



Kashmir's King aceded to India.So if there are demands and compromises it will be made between Indians and Kashmiris.Pakistan is no one to have any demands in Kashmir.Maan na Maan main tera mehmaan.

Great logic.
 
Islam respects all other religions right ? Then why you want to conquer land belongs to another religion

How Ghazwa-e-Hind mission will be succeed whether to defend after being invaded or conquering it, Allahu Alim! But at the end, Ghazwa-e-Hind will happen and it's prophesied for a reason.

^ As for response to your question, yes, at the end, it's for peace. If it takes a conquering India to freed Kashmir from Indian armies, then, yes, at the end, for the betterment for Kashmir and for peace. To be fair, India is to blame here. There is something called punishment for wrongdoing, and Ghazwa-e-Hind will be punishment to India for all the wrongdoings have been done to Kashmir.
 
Last edited:
How Ghazwa-e-Hind mission will be succeed whether to defend after being invaded or conquering it, Allahu Alim! But at the end, Ghazwa-e-Hind will happen and it's prophesied for a reason.

^ As for response to your question, yes, at the end, it's for peace. If it takes a conquering India to freed Kashmir from Indian armies, then, yes, at the end, for the betterment for Kashmir and for peace. To be fair, India is to blame here. There is something called punishment for wrongdoing, and Ghazwa-e-Hind will be punishment to India for all the wrongdoings have been done to Kashmir.

You must believe in Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy too?
 
How Ghazwa-e-Hind mission will be succeed whether to defend after being invaded or conquering it, Allahu Alim! But at the end, Ghazwa-e-Hind will happen and it's prophesied for a reason.

^ As for response to your question, yes, at the end, it's for peace. If it takes a conquering India to freed Kashmir from Indian armies, then, yes, at the end, for the betterment for Kashmir and for peace. To be fair, India is to blame here. There is something called punishment for wrongdoing, and Ghazwa-e-Hind will be punishment to India for all the wrongdoings have been done to Kashmir.
Why you need to conquer entire india to free kashmir.Its like killing all muslims because of islamic terrorism.So whats the future of pakistanis who were involved in similar sort of crime in bangladesh
 
1.Neither The Maharaja or his descendents have ever claimed that the instrument of accession was signed under duress nor have they disputed the signing of the document.So when two parties between whom the agreement happen have no problem,how come Pakistan a third party who has no job telling a ruler of a sovereign Kashmir what to do,raise an objection?

2.Lets suppose the Army reached Srinagar before the Maharaj signed the documents.Was the Army there againist the wishes of the ruler of the state?No it wasnt.It was there on the specific invitation of the legal ruler of that state.

3.Now Kashmir had decided to be an independent nation and according to the declaration of independence it was allowed to do so.Why did Pakistan violate that declaration and invade Kashmir,and then shamelessly claim the shade of that very declaration and ask Kashmir be given to it as its Muslim Majority.Kashmir was an independent nation,ruled by its Independent ruler.He made a decision to remain independent.But the greed of Pakistan(which had missed out on almost every big princely state out of the 565) came in and the problem started.

4.Look at India's map,we have a whole state Himachal Pradesh bordering Kashmir.And Pakistan should have asked for those Tehsils when the division was done and not put out consipracy theories later.





As i said.Read History.India didnot attack it.India just broke off its relations with Junagadh and sealed India's borders with Junagadh.Which a sovereign state is legally allowed to do.All of Junagadh's resources where depleted as it depended on India for everything.The Nawab made an appeal to Pakistan to provide the resources.Pakistan didnt.Revolt started among the the Junagadh people.The Nawab abdicated and made the Diwan the new Nawab and fled.The Diwan/New Nawab held a meeting with the Army and all prominent Junagadh people and then invited the Indian Army.Please provide a source that says Indian Army entered Junagadh without the permission of the new Nawab.





The population of Hyderabad was 85% Hindu.Thats by the 1941 census.

The non agression/StandStill agreement that was enshrined in the Declaration of Independence signed by India and Pakistan said that neither country will invade a Princely state.That agreement was broken by Pakistan in 1947 when Pakistan invaded Kashmir.With Pakistan setting a precedence and breaking the agreement,India was no more bound by the agreement to not to attack Hyderabad.So it attacked Hyderabad and annexed it.





The radcliffe boundary commisions recommendations were agreed upon by both India and Pakistan.

The situation of Kashmir and its King and everything has been explained in details above.

The UN asked Pakistan to remove its Army but allowed India to keep its.So first get out of Kashmir hand POK to UN and then talk about plebicite.

Why did Pakistan push militants into Kashmir and chased away the Pandits?There by altering the demography for ever and making any plebicite impossible?

Only a tiny piece of Kashmiri land under Pakistan is called AZK.Rest is is a separate area called Gilgit Baltistan,some of which has been gifted to China by Pakistan.what a huge favour to Kashmiris.

AZK is Azad?How?AFAIK its citizens hold a Pakistani Passport.Why doesnt Pakistan hand it over to UN.Let UN protect AZK againist India.LOL NO.They wont ,i wonder why.






Kashmir's King aceded to India.So if there are demands and compromises it will be made between Indians and Kashmiris.Pakistan is no one to have any demands in Kashmir.Maan na Maan main tera mehmaan.

First yourself act on UN resolutions.Infact they must get out of POK and hand it over to UN.

Secondly Pakistan in Shimla Agreement and LAhore Declaration has said Plebicite is not an option.

So stop making fools out of anyone.

Except some part of the first part i quoted,the rest is not from any BBC article.The english is very very dodgy to say the least.If it is please link me.


O you peace loving country,O you Liar!!!!Hyderabad state wanted to remain independent.. India invaded Hyderabad on 13 September 1948 And after knowing about all these invasions of states, do you still think Indian would have NO INTENTION of invading Kashmir at all, had we not started the issue? So,Pakistan army with local Mujahideen attacked in early part of October......

Pakistan's military involvement in Kashmir might had been something linked with the events at Junagadh which had formally been annexed with Pakistan on perhaps September 16/17 1947, quite before then any trouble started at Kashmir!
It is often said that the decision of Maharaja was made to pacify majority of his Muslim subjects for the time being. Pakistan did not invade it over night, the circumstances at Hyderabad and Junagadh (when it signed an instrument of accession with Pakistan in September, 1947) That was become a part of Pakistan but hue & cry /strong opposition by India against it compelled Pakistan to take some action, though it is also said that neither Quaid-e-Azam was in faovur of such a war nor Pakistan had enough resources to launch any war, because her defense and economical resources were stopped/captured by India right after independence because she wanted Pakistan to succumb at very initial years... And initially that was a war of liberation lead by ex-Kashmiri Muslim soldiers from Northern Areas (Col Hassan Khan etc) which caught attention of Muslims living in Kashmir and Muslims of tribal areas to help their brethren and that was 4th October and India was watching the scene cautiously and asked the Maharajja to sign instrument of accession and such a request was made by Mahajja on October 26, 1947 and it was readily accepted by Governor General Indian and already dressed up Indian army near Kashmir border started offense on very next day i.e. October 27, 1947..:13:

Yeh,i salute you on your double standards......No surprise that in that country Afzal Guru is hanged and buried in the jail and Modi is praised and respected.... if Hyderabad's population was Hindu in Majority then Kasmir's population was Muslim in majority...

Lol at the pundits blame game....Ok,i agree some hindus had to migrate , but that took place after 1990,Only for India 42 years were not enough..In the end it is not relative because Huindus were only 20 percent of Jammu and Kashmir combined..

Yes neither India nor Pakistan agreed to take out forces out of Kashmir due to obvious reasons that if Pakistan to withdraw first India will capture it and in case India will withdraw first, Pakistan will capture it.. Further, India knew that in case of any plebiscite she will not have chance of winning it otherwise she would certainly had done such a plebiscite at Kashmir as she did at Junagadh.


Indians are not too naive.... They had captured many states and they have lot of ingress in Nepal as well and they have passed a law whereby they can capture /arrest any person even from inside the territory of Nepal on suspicion of terrorism/spying etc.

unlike India, Pakistan has not grabbed the Kashmir and has left it to be decided by the wishes of its people. Though under control of Pakistan - as also necessitated under UN Resolutions - AJK is a self-governing state and is not constitutionally part of Pakistan.... It has parliamentary democracy having its own chosen legislature, P.M, President, its own High Court, anthem, flag, judiciary and its AJK Council controls its financial matters including taxes and budgets, so the political Government of AJ&K is responsible for all development works as well.... Nevertheless, there are development issues in provinces of Pakistan and they are quite drastic because of lack of interest by the political leadership, who are more interested in filling their own pockets instead of thinking for the masses.

Now,lets move beyond history, Kashmiris need recognition no matter if it is just a province or a sovereign state. Kashmiris ask a question who are they? If neither of the India or Pakistan is able to satisfy them with answer it should be left to them..status of Kashmir from being a disputed territory to a part of any country or having independence, the matter is with the United Nations, which cannot make any firm decision becasue of power disparity between countries.......

I know you will try your best to again take me back from where we began .....But in the end the logical conclusion according to every definition of human rights and freedom is that Kashmiris should be allowed to chose their own destination....
 
I ask again, why are the Pakistanis clamouring for that blasted piece of land that is Kashmir? Don't they have enough geographical headaches in their lives as it is?

Masochism.
 
So, you really think it's an official website? :asif

Also, we can talk about evidence the day you understand the difference between ''and'' and ''hence''.


lol you can just imagine things and think they are real... may be u got something called hallucinations

I can say it was you who attacked Parliament with a gun... how stupid would that sound if i don't have any proof.

Everytime i hear such arguments I am reminded of Richard Clarks statement on ABC News.
 
O you peace loving country,O you Liar!!!!Hyderabad state wanted to remain independent.. India invaded Hyderabad on 13 September 1948 And after knowing about all these invasions of states, do you still think Indian would have NO INTENTION of invading Kashmir at all, had we not started the issue? So,Pakistan army with local Mujahideen attacked in early part of October......

Are you deliberately trying to mix up the dates?Or a pathetic attempt at lying?Or you are confused.

Kashmir conflict happened in Sept 1947 to April 1948(When UN passed the resolution and asked for a ceasefire)

So Pakistan started a war in KAshmir 1 year before anything happened in Hyderabad.Get your dates right.And before calling anyone a liar look at the facts.

Pakistan's military involvement in Kashmir might had been something linked with the events at Junagadh which had formally been annexed with Pakistan on perhaps September 16/17 1947, quite before then any trouble started at Kashmir!
It is often said that the decision of Maharaja was made to pacify majority of his Muslim subjects for the time being. Pakistan did not invade it over night, the circumstances at Hyderabad and Junagadh (when it signed an instrument of accession with Pakistan in September, 1947) That was become a part of Pakistan but hue & cry /strong opposition by India against it compelled Pakistan to take some action, though it is also said that neither Quaid-e-Azam was in faovur of such a war nor Pakistan had enough resources to launch any war, because her defense and economical resources were stopped/captured by India right after independence because she wanted Pakistan to succumb at very initial years... And initially that was a war of liberation lead by ex-Kashmiri Muslim soldiers from Northern Areas (Col Hassan Khan etc) which caught attention of Muslims living in Kashmir and Muslims of tribal areas to help their brethren and that was 4th October and India was watching the scene cautiously and asked the Maharajja to sign instrument of accession and such a request was made by Mahajja on October 26, 1947 and it was readily accepted by Governor General Indian and already dressed up Indian army near Kashmir border started offense on very next day i.e. October 27, 1947..:13:

The Nawab of Junagadh abdicated and left the country to the Diwan,who invited India and then only Indian Army went into Junagadh.Prove that Indian Army was in Junagadh before that.

Indian Army was airlifted to Srinagar.And If the Army was along the borders it was not inside Kashmir.Indian Army was invited by the King of Kashmir who was the legal ruler.Pakistanis invaded illegally trying to get some land as they couldnt get any big states to cede to it.

Yeh,i salute you on your double standards......No surprise that in that country Afzal Guru is hanged and buried in the jail and Modi is praised and respected.... if Hyderabad's population was Hindu in Majority then Kasmir's population was Muslim in majority...

Pakistan illegally invaded Kashmir but could only get 1/3rd of it as the Maharaja ceded to India and India beat back Pakistan from near Srinagar to what is now POK.Again for your reference this happened in 1947.

India invaded Hyderabad in 1948.That time there was no standstill agreement as the agreement was voided when Pakistan invaded Kashmir in 1947.If Pakistan wanted it could have tried to intervene in Hyderabad.It couldnt/wouldnt



Lol at the pundits blame game....Ok,i agree some hindus had to migrate , but that took place after 1990,Only for India 42 years were not enough..In the end it is not relative because Huindus were only 20 percent of Jammu and Kashmir combined..

For 42 years your country tried to capture Kashmir by war.Got soundly beaten.Violated 3 agreements.Btw when the UN resolution demands that Pakistan leave POK,why its still there?

And you presume that all 80% Muslims support Pakistan?Thats why they sided with the Indian Army in 1965 and 1971?

Yes neither India nor Pakistan agreed to take out forces out of Kashmir due to obvious reasons that if Pakistan to withdraw first India will capture it and in case India will withdraw first, Pakistan will capture it.. Further, India knew that in case of any plebiscite she will not have chance of winning it otherwise she would certainly had done such a plebiscite at Kashmir as she did at Junagadh.

UN resolution asks Pakistan to withdraw not India.Pakistan must handover POK to UN.I doubt India will attack UN forces and take POK.Thats impossible.

Junagadh was totally with India.If India had total control of Kashmir it would have held the plebicite as promised.India repeatedly asked Pakistan to vacate POK and hand it over to UN as per the resolution.Pakistan declined.


Indians are not too naive.... They had captured many states and they have lot of ingress in Nepal as well and they have passed a law whereby they can capture /arrest any person even from inside the territory of Nepal on suspicion of terrorism/spying etc.

Now you shift to Nepal.May i tell you its a Sovereign country and doesnt need Pakistan's help and yes its not part of any brotherhood either.Pakistan has taken responsibility of whole brotherhood plus whole of S-E Asia it seems.

Next what?Bhutan?

unlike India, Pakistan has not grabbed the Kashmir and has left it to be decided by the wishes of its people. Though under control of Pakistan - as also necessitated under UN Resolutions - AJK is a self-governing state and is not constitutionally part of Pakistan.... It has parliamentary democracy having its own chosen legislature, P.M, President, its own High Court, anthem, flag, judiciary and its AJK Council controls its financial matters including taxes and budgets, so the political Government of AJ&K is responsible for all development works as well.... Nevertheless, there are development issues in provinces of Pakistan and they are quite drastic because of lack of interest by the political leadership, who are more interested in filling their own pockets instead of thinking for the masses.

If its free hand it over to UN forces.Let them protect it.

Now,lets move beyond history, Kashmiris need recognition no matter if it is just a province or a sovereign state. Kashmiris ask a question who are they? If neither of the India or Pakistan is able to satisfy them with answer it should be left to them..status of Kashmir from being a disputed territory to a part of any country or having independence, the matter is with the United Nations, which cannot make any firm decision becasue of power disparity between countries.......

I know you will try your best to again take me back from where we began .....But in the end the logical conclusion according to every definition of human rights and freedom is that Kashmiris should be allowed to chose their own destination...

How do you conduct a plebicite in a state where 20% population have been forced to leave or killed?

Pakistan must give POK to UN forces and stop supporting militancy in Kashmir.That will allow the Pandits to return.When they return and POK is under UN,the a Plebicite must be held.
 
Are you deliberately trying to mix up the dates?Or a pathetic attempt at lying?Or you are confused.

Kashmir conflict happened in Sept 1947 to April 1948(When UN passed the resolution and asked for a ceasefire)

So Pakistan started a war in KAshmir 1 year before anything happened in Hyderabad.Get your dates right.And before calling anyone a liar look at the facts.



The Nawab of Junagadh abdicated and left the country to the Diwan,who invited India and then only Indian Army went into Junagadh.Prove that Indian Army was in Junagadh before that.

Indian Army was airlifted to Srinagar.And If the Army was along the borders it was not inside Kashmir.Indian Army was invited by the King of Kashmir who was the legal ruler.Pakistanis invaded illegally trying to get some land as they couldnt get any big states to cede to it.



Pakistan illegally invaded Kashmir but could only get 1/3rd of it as the Maharaja ceded to India and India beat back Pakistan from near Srinagar to what is now POK.Again for your reference this happened in 1947.

India invaded Hyderabad in 1948.That time there was no standstill agreement as the agreement was voided when Pakistan invaded Kashmir in 1947.If Pakistan wanted it could have tried to intervene in Hyderabad.It couldnt/wouldnt





For 42 years your country tried to capture Kashmir by war.Got soundly beaten.Violated 3 agreements.Btw when the UN resolution demands that Pakistan leave POK,why its still there?

And you presume that all 80% Muslims support Pakistan?Thats why they sided with the Indian Army in 1965 and 1971?



UN resolution asks Pakistan to withdraw not India.Pakistan must handover POK to UN.I doubt India will attack UN forces and take POK.Thats impossible.

Junagadh was totally with India.If India had total control of Kashmir it would have held the plebicite as promised.India repeatedly asked Pakistan to vacate POK and hand it over to UN as per the resolution.Pakistan declined.




Now you shift to Nepal.May i tell you its a Sovereign country and doesnt need Pakistan's help and yes its not part of any brotherhood either.Pakistan has taken responsibility of whole brotherhood plus whole of S-E Asia it seems.

Next what?Bhutan?



If its free hand it over to UN forces.Let them protect it.



How do you conduct a plebicite in a state where 20% population have been forced to leave or killed?

Pakistan must give POK to UN forces and stop supporting militancy in Kashmir.That will allow the Pandits to return.When they return and POK is under UN,the a Plebicite must be held.

Yep,it was a mistake to mix up the dates...though the Indian treatment of other princely states showed their intentions.......
Yep, wars have been fought on Kashmir Issue ,whole world knows it,but only Indian govt used to say even after 3 wars that Kashmir was a non issue...

it were Mujahideen and tribal people who started kashmir uprising and not army,army did not have the resources

And do not be so naive and try to analyze by keeping aside your Indian-ism...India was never ready for plebicite..It was only a drama to snatch remaining part of Kashmir...UN resolution also asked India to minimize its army .....both India and Pakistan failed to arrive at a Truce agreement due to differences in interpretation of the procedure for and extent of demilitarisation one of them being whether the Azad Kashmiri army is to be disbanded during the truce stage or the Plebiscite stage.....Pakistan proposed simultaneous withdrawal of all troops followed by a plebiscite under international auspices,which makes sense but India rejected..
To this end, UN arbitrators put forward 11 different proposals for the demilitarization of the region. All of these were accepted by Pakistan, but rejected by the Indian government
..whether they are binding or non binding it shows India's reluctance for a solution..

and do not try to deny the facts,Yasin Malik did not come from Pakistan,though i agree Pakistan had some part in it but the whole responsibilty can not be fixed on Pakistan about militancy..Even some people who crossed from Pakistani side were mostly Kasmiris,and you can not call them Pakistani..

the state human right commission said it had evidence that 2,156 bodies had been buried in 40 graves over the last 20 year.[40] The authorities deny such accusations. The security forces say the unidentified dead are militants who may have originally come from outside India. They also say that many of the missing people have crossed into Pakistan-administered Kashmir to engage in militancy.[40] But according to The state human rights commission, among the identified bodies 574 were those of "disappeared locals", and according to Amnesty International's annual human rights report (2012) it was sufficient for "belying the security forces’ claim that they were militants

So,we began from the argument that Kashmir was never an issue and only Pakistan sent militants..above mentioned state human rights commision and Amnesty International prove it otherwise...

What an idea to make Pakistan withdraw its army ,only for India to capture it...No,total Hindu population was 20 percent,not all of them migrated at all....It does not matter as India had never any intention to go for plebicite..
 


Yep,it was a mistake to mix up the dates...though the Indian treatment of other princely states showed their intentions.......
Yep, wars have been fought on Kashmir Issue ,whole world knows it,but only Indian govt used to say even after 3 wars that Kashmir was a non issue...

it were Mujahideen and tribal people who started kashmir uprising and not army,army did not have the resources


Please show me this intent.You cannot be held responsible unless you act.And India didnt act,Pakistanis did.

And do not be so naive and try to analyze by keeping aside your Indian-ism...India was never ready for plebicite..It was only a drama to snatch remaining part of Kashmir...UN resolution also asked India to minimize its army .....both India and Pakistan failed to arrive at a Truce agreement due to differences in interpretation of the procedure for and extent of demilitarisation one of them being whether the Azad Kashmiri army is to be disbanded during the truce stage or the Plebiscite stage.....Pakistan proposed simultaneous withdrawal of all troops followed by a plebiscite under international auspices,which makes sense but India rejected....whether they are binding or non binding it shows India's reluctance for a solution..


India accepted the first resolution and that resolution asked Pakistan to leave POK.Pakistan didnt.Infact it kept trying to push in resolutions after resolutions until it got one that favoured it.If i am not wrong(i dont remember the dates)the resolution which asked both India and Pakistan to demilitarize was after 1965 war.When Pakistan had clearly been shown that it enjoys little support in Kashmir.So after a war in which Pakistan had broken the truce agreement and attacked KAshmir it wanted India to remove its armies.Was it even tangible?

Correct me if i am wrong,but Pakistan has broken every agreement it has signed on Kashmir.

StandStill agreement 1947

Ceasefire Agreement 1948

SHimla Agreement 1971

Lahore Declaration 1999

After this if they talk about India removing its armies.Its naive to trust them.


and do not try to deny the facts,Yasin Malik did not come from Pakistan,though i agree Pakistan had some part in it but the whole responsibilty can not be fixed on Pakistan about militancy..Even some people who crossed from Pakistani side were mostly Kasmiris,and you can not call them Pakistani..

Is Yasin Malik a terrorist?Sepratist Leader yes.Your own President and COAS Mussharaf has accepted that Pakistan used terrorism in Kashmir as a weapon againist India.

Anyone who holds a Pakistani passport is a Pakistani.Thats how they are recognised.They have no right to be on the Indian soil doing anything except when with valid papers.

Almost 2/3rd of the J and K rifles is made of Kashmiri people,you wont mind if they walk into Mirpur.Will you?

So,we began from the argument that Kashmir was never an issue and only Pakistan sent militants..above mentioned state human rights commision and Amnesty International prove it otherwise...

What an idea to make Pakistan withdraw its army ,only for India to capture it...No,total Hindu population was 20 percent,not all of them migrated at all....It does not matter as India had never any intention to go for plebicite..

And when did all these mass graves were dated to?Post 1980s,after the militancy started.As i said and accepted in my post,civilian casualties were a result of collateral damage that happens in war.Very regrettable and Sad and codemnable.But impossible to avoid.

Total Hindu population of the VALLEY was 20%.Jammu has Hindu Majority.Leh is 50-50 almost between Buddhists and Muslim(most of them Shia and hardly Pakistan
supporters).

Today Hindu population is very less in the valley.You cannot hold a plebicite in a place where 20% population has been chased away.

Regarding that 11 proposals by UN and Pakistan accepting them,that line is a copy paste from WiKi and based on the heresay of Pakistan Interior Minister.Hardly the credible source.

India at the very first instance asked Pakistan to leave POK and UN to come in there.Pakistan refused.Please tell me if UN forces protect POK how can India grab them?Thats impossible.
 
^
You are repeating again,what you have already said earlier...and if you think wikipedia article is wrong then go ,show them evidence/referrence and edit it.....

Anyways,you have read enough to know that Kashmir is a core issue which should be solved according to wishes of kashmiris...
 
A plebiscite in Kashmir in the current situation is impractical and makes no sense for so many different reasons. If the issue were to come up in the UN again, it would reach the same conclusion:

1. Pakistan did not honor the first condition for making a plebiscite happen because they never withdrew their troops as mandated by the UN resolution as a prerequisite for a plebiscite.

2. Pakistan has willfully given away Kashmiri territory to China.

3. The Shimla agreement overrides the UN resolution by saying that all issues between India and Pakistan have to be resolved bilaterally.

4. The demographics of the region have been irrevocably changed by force and terrorism.

5. A free and fair plebiscite cannot be held in prevailing conditions of violence and terrorism. You need a Qubec like peaceful situation to have a plebiscite which carried any meaning.

People talking about plebiscite show zero understanding of international law and conditions in which a plebiscite carries any meaning.
 
Why does Pakistanis cry about whats happening in kashmir when they are killing people in Balochistan. Why don't they shed tears for Baloch bros? Aren't they Muslims? Where is the anger against Pak army for killing baloch freedom fighters?
 
May Allaah (SWT) hastens the Ghazwa-e-Hind mission to be successful, so my people from Kashmir can enjoy the freedom to exercise - have been denied for more than 60 years, Ameen!

May Allaah (SWT) guides the people - fueled with ignorance and ego, to the right path and teaches them to learn to love humanity, Ameen!

^ I am not surprised at the reaction here especially from the neighbor country. What good are money and education that can not teach the whole India to love the humanity at all?

Good news for the Muslim in Kashmir, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan that Ghazwa-e-Hind has been prophesied by none other than Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Insha'Allaah! one day, it will happen in front of our eyes. Be patient for a while, our Kashmiri brothers and sisters! Justice will be served whether in Earth or Hereafter, Ameen!


Kindly also comment on the great humanitarian projects undertaken by the kashmiri militants across India resulting in the deaths of hundreds of civilians. What kind of love for humanity is it? You are just disgracing Allah here in my opinion and should apologize to Muslims for bringing his name in such discussions where all parties are flawed.
 
Kindly also comment on the great humanitarian projects undertaken by the kashmiri militants across India resulting in the deaths of hundreds of civilians. What kind of love for humanity is it? You are just disgracing Allah here in my opinion and should apologize to Muslims for bringing his name in such discussions where all parties are flawed.
I thought he will respond to my previous post but he stayed away from that.I hadn't see him shedding tears for those muslims who are being killed by muslims.
 
To push the topic back to the subject of this thread, someone up above put up a video of Afzal Guru confessing his crime. Here is Afzal Guru's letter to his lawyer, in full. We all know how easy it to get a man to confess in South Asia. Please re-view the video in this context.

Mohammad Afzal’s [Unedited] Letter To His Lawyer Sushil Kumar, Sr. Advocate, Supreme Court
http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?225472

Respected Shri Sushil Kumar,

Hello (I)

I am extremely thankful and feel very much obligated to you that you have taken up my case and decided to defend me. From the beginning of this case I was neglected and had never been given a chance to reveal the truth before media or in court. The designated court did not provided me the lawyer in spite of giving three applications. In the high court one human rights lawyer asked the court that Afzal had expressed his desire that he want to be killed by toxic injection rather by hanging which is absolutely false. I never told this to my lawyer. Since that lawyer was not of my own choice (or my family) but it was due to my helplessness and non-accessibility to proper lawyer. Being locked up in high security jail and without being in communication with that human rights lawyer I could not change him or to convey my objection regarding my death desire to High Court as I came to know this after High Court’s decision.

In the Parliament attack case I was entrapped by Special Task Force of Kashmir. Here in Delhi the designated court sentenced me to death on the basis of special police version which works in nexus with STF, and also came under the influence of mass media in which I was made to accept the crime under duress and threat by special police ACP. Rajbir Singh. That threat even get confirmed to designated court by T.V. interviewer (Shams Tahir Aaj-Tak).

When I was arrested in Srinagar bus stand I was taken to STF Headquarter from here the special police along with STF brought me to Delhi. In Srinagar at Parompora Police Station everything of my belongings was seized and then they beated me and threatened me of dire consequences regarding my wife and family if I reveal or disclose the reality before anybody. Even my younger brother Hilal Ahmad Guru he was taken into police custody without any warrant etc. and was kept there for 2-3 months. This was first told to me by ACP Rajbir Singh. Special police told me that if I will speak according to their wishes they will not harm my family members and also gave me false assurance that they will make my case weak so that after sometime I will get released.

The most important priority I gave to safety of my family. As I know from last seven years how the STF men kill, the Kashmiris, how they had made youth invisible and had disappeared them while killing them in custody. I am living and organic eye-witness to various tortures and custodial killings and I am myself the victim of STF terror and torture. Being an surrendered militant of JKLF I was constantly harassed, threatened and agonized by various security agencies like Army. BSF. and STF. But since STF. is unorganized, without being accountable a band and gang of renegades patronised by state government. They intrude every house, every family everywhere in Kashmir anytime day or night. If anybody is picked up by STF and his family came to know this, then family members only wait to get his dead body which they hope. But usually they never came to know his whereabouts. 6000 youths have disappeared. Under these circumstances and under this fearful environment persons like me are always ready to play any dirty game in the hands of STF. just for the survival. The people who are able to pay in terms of cash are not forced to do the dirty things the way I did as I was not able to pay. Even one of the policeman of the same police station of Parimpora named Akbar had extorted 5000 Rs. Long before attack and threatened me that he will charge me as selling duplicate medicines and surgical items of which I was doing business at Sopore, in 2000. He came here in designated court and became a witness against me. He was knowing me before parliament attack. In the court room he told me in Kashmiri that my family is o.k. indirectly it was a hidden threat which the designated court hardly could realise otherwise in court I would have questioned him but before court started recording his statement he told me this. Throughout the trial I remained mute and helpless spectator as witnesses, police and even judge they all became a single force against me. I remained a frustrate bewildered and confused between the security and safety of myself and my family. I protected and saved my family. That is how I am lying in death row.

(II) In 1997-98 I started a business of medicines and surgical instruments on commission basis as I could not get a govt job due to the reason of being an surrendered militant. Because surrendered militants were not given jobs. They were either to work as SPOs or STF or to join the renegades under the patronage of security forces or police. Everyday SPOs were get killed by militants. In these conditions I started my commission based business earning 4000Rs. – 5000Rs. per month. But since the police informers (SPOs) usually harass those surrendered militants who do not work with S.T.F. etc. From 98-2000 I usually used to pay 300Rs. sometimes 500 Rs. to local SPO so as to keep myself in business otherwise these SPO make us to present us before security agencies. Even one of the SPO one day told me that they too have to pay their bosses. As I was working hard in my business my business flourished. One day at 10 am I was on my two wheeler scooter that I had purchased just before two months. I was whisked away by STF men in bullet proof gypsy to Palhallan camp. There the D.S.P. Vinay Gupta tortured me, electrified me—put me in cold water – used petrol—chillies and other techniques. He told me that I possess weapons but at evening time one of his inspector Farooq told me that if I can pay 1000,000 Rs to him (D.S.P) I will be released or they will kill me. Then they took me to Humhama STF camp where D.S.P. Dravinder Singh also tortured me. One of his torture inspector as they called him Shanty Singh electrified me naked for 3 hours and made me drink water while giving electric shocks through telephone instrument. Ultimately I accepted to pay them 1000000 Rs. for which my family sold the gold of my wife. Even after this they could manage only 80000 Rs. Then they took the scooter too which was just 2-3 months old which I bought for 24000Rs. Thus after getting 1 lakh Rupees they let me free. But now I was a broken person. In the same Humhama STF camp there was one more victim named Tariq. He suggested me that I should always co-operate with STF otherwise they will always harass and will not let me to live normal—free life. This was a turning point of my life. I decided to live the way Tariq told me. Since from 1990-1996 I had studied in Delhi University I was also giving tuitions in different coaching centres and also home tuitions. This fact reached to the man named Altaf Hussain who is brother-in- law of S.S.P. Ashaq Hussain of Budgam. Since it was this Altaf Hussain who managed my family rather he became the broker between my family and D.S.P. Humhama Dravinder Singh. Altaf told me that I should teach his two children one on 12th , 2nd [second one] in 10th class as his children were not able to go outside for tuition due to militant threat. Thus I became very close to Altaf’s and Altaf also. One day Altaf took me to Dravinder Singh (D.S.P.). D.S. told me that I had to do a small job for him that has to took one man to delhi as I was well aware about Delhi and has to manage a rented house for him. Since I was not knowing the man but I suspected that this man is not Kashmiri as he did not speak in Kashmiri but I was helpless to do what Dravinder told me. I took him to Delhi. One day he told me that he want to purchase a car. Thus I went with him to Karol Bagh. He purchased the car. Then in Delhi he used to meet different persons and both of us he Mohammad and me used to get the different phone calls from Dravinder Singh. One day Mohammad told me that if he want to go back to Kashmir he can. He also gave me 35000 Rs. and told me that this gift is for you. 6 days or 8 days before I took a rented room at Indra Vihar for my family as I decided to live in Delhi with my family because I was not satisfied with my this life. I left the keys of rented house to my land lady and told her that I will be back after Eid festival on 14th Dec. after parliament attack about which there was a lot of tension. I contacted Tariq in Sgr. [Srinagar]. At evening he told me when I came back from Delhi. I replied just one hour before. Next morning when I was about to leave to Sopore from bus stand Sgr. police caught me and took me to Parampora police station . Tariq was there also with STF. They took 35000 Rs. from my pocket, beated me and directly took me STF Head Quarter. From there I was taken to Delhi. My eyes were blind folded. Here I found myself in special police torture cell.

In special cell custody I told them everything regarding Mohammad etc. but they told me that I Showkat his wife Navjot (Afshan) Geelani are the people behind parliament attack. They too threatened me regarding my family and one of the inspector told me that my younger brother Hilal Ahmad Guru is in STF custody. They can lift the other family members too if I don’t co-operate with them. They tried me and forced me to implicate Showkat his wife and Geelani but I did not yield. I told them this is not possible. Then they told me that I should not say anything about Geelani (be about his innocence). After some days I was presented before media handcuffed. There were NDTV, Aaj tak, Zee news, Sahara TV etc. Rajbeer Singh (A.C.P.) was also there. When one of the interviewer Shams tahir told me what is the role of Geelani in parliament attack, I just said that Geelani is innocent. This moment A.C.P. Rajbeer Singh got up from his moving chair he shouted at me and told me that he had already said me not to speak about Geelani in front of everybody (Media-personnel). Rajbeer Singh’s behaviour exposed my helplessness and media personnel atleast came to know that what Afzal is saying under threat or duress. Then Rajbir Singh (A.C.P.) requested T.V. personel that the question regarding Geelani should be washed away or not to be shown before public. At evening time Rajbir Singh told me that if I want to talk [to] my family. I replied in yes. Then I talked to my wife. After finishing my phone he told me if I want to see my wife & family alive I must cooperate [with] them at every step. They took me to various places in delhi. From where they showed that Mohammad had purchased different things. They took me to Kashmir from where we came back without doing anything. They made me to sign on atleast 200-300 blank pages.

I was never given an [a] chance in [the] designated court to tell the real story. The judge told me that I will be given full opportunity to speak at the end of case but at the end he even did not recorded my all statements neither the court gave me whatever even court recorded. If phone numbers recorded will be seen carefully the court would have come to know the phone numbers of STF.

Now I hope that the Supreme Court will consider my helplessness and the reality through which I had passed. STF made [me]an [a] scapegoat in all this criminal act which was designed and directed by STF and others which I don’t know. Special Police is definitely the part of this game because every time they forced me to remain silent. I hope my forced silence will be heard and justice will prevail. I once again pay heart felt thanks to your good self for defending my case. May truth prevail!

(Sd)
Mohammad Afzal
S/o Habibullah Guru
Ward No. 6 (High Security Ward)
Jail No. 1, Tihar
New Delhi 110064
 
A plebiscite in Kashmir in the current situation is impractical and makes no sense for so many different reasons. If the issue were to come up in the UN again, it would reach the same conclusion:

1. Pakistan did not honor the first condition for making a plebiscite happen because they never withdrew their troops as mandated by the UN resolution as a prerequisite for a plebiscite.

2. Pakistan has willfully given away Kashmiri territory to China.

3. The Shimla agreement overrides the UN resolution by saying that all issues between India and Pakistan have to be resolved bilaterally.

4. The demographics of the region have been irrevocably changed by force and terrorism.

5. A free and fair plebiscite cannot be held in prevailing conditions of violence and terrorism. You need a Qubec like peaceful situation to have a plebiscite which carried any meaning.

People talking about plebiscite show zero understanding of international law and conditions in which a plebiscite carries any meaning.

India never actually intended to go for plebiscite,hence Pakistan did not withdraw,resolution also asked India to minimise its troops,UN later on suggested other options to both countries and to withdraw simlutaneously but India never accepted....It was only a drama to gain remaining part of Kashmir ..How could they?knowing 80 percent Muslim majority..

Yep,your 7 lakh army is doing everything to change demographics by force and state terrorism,including murder of thousands of Kashmiris...Wanna see some pictures,read some human rights reports?

What exactly is mentioned in Shimla agreement about Kashmir?Anything?..India actually never accepted during last couple of decades that Kashmir is an issue.. how could they talk about Kashmir in Shimla...Its only an Indian view..

The truth is that India never accepted Kashmir an issue,or disputed territory which it is according to UN..They are still not ready to talk on Kashmir,becasue of which we fought 3 wars..Its a non issue for them..
 
The Hanging of Afzal Guru: How an Execution is Roiling Kashmir

On the morning of Feb. 9, India-administered Kashmir woke up to deserted streets. There were no newspapers to be bought that Saturday morning — no television, no Internet. Streets throughout the valley had been taken over by the Indian security forces before dawn broke on Saturday, setting up barricades and a strict edict for all residents to stay indoors. Locals who ventured out to look for breakfast essentials like bread and milk were sent back home. “I went out of my home to offer prayers in a local mosque and to buy milk for tea, but I was surprised when policemen didn’t allow me,” says Bashir Ahmed, a Srinagar resident. “When I asked them the reason, they tried to hit me with a bamboo stick and I ran away.”

What Ahmed didn’t know was that New Delhi was on a mission to keep as much information as possible out of Kashmir about the execution of Muhammad Afzal Guru early Saturday morning. In 2002, a special court convicted Guru of aiding terrorists in planning the 2001 attack on Parliament, in which five gunmen entered India’s legislative house, shooting indiscriminately. Fourteen people were killed, including the gunmen, and 18 were injured. The government accused Guru, a former Kashmiri militant, of being a member of the separatist extremist group Jaish-e-Muhammad (JeM), which the government held responsible for the attack. Fearing repercussions in the valley, where the 43-year-old was from, New Delhi cut off all Internet in the region, forced Kashmiri daily newspapers to stop printing for four days and prohibited cable networks from broadcasting news channels apart from the state-run Doordarshan. A curfew was imposed in ten districts.

The order did not go as New Delhi might have planned. As news of Guru’s execution reached the valley, Kashmir erupted into unrest that is still continuing nearly a week later, concentrated mostly in Guru’s home district. Small groups of protesters gathered together, defying the curfew, shouting anti-Indian slogans and burning the Indian flag. Three people died and 50 people, including 23 policemen, were injured in the protests. On Thursday, the curfew was temporarily relaxed in Srinagar’s old city, but was withdrawn when within minutes protesters started gathering in the streets. The unrest has prompted chief minister Omar Abdullah to appeal for calm in a televised address. On Feb. 14, lawyers from the Kashmir Bar Association took to the streets demanding the Indian government return the mortal remains of Guru, who was buried inside Tihar Jail in New Delhi. On Friday, a blanket curfew was re-imposed across the valley to prevent a planned protest march of separatists.

The draconian measures to keep information out of the region last weekend surprised none, but angered many. “In Kashmir everything is seen through the prism of security,” says Shameem Meraj, editor of the English-language daily the Kashmir Monitor. “Even newspapers that are the most authentic source of information are seen as possible inciters.”Many have said the restrictions were designed to stop people from visiting Guru’s family, who lives in the Kashmiri town of Sopore. Guru’s village, Seer Jagir, lies on the banks of the Jhelum River, which passes through an army camp. The official communiqué regarding Guru’s hanging reached his family two days after the hanging, angering many who questioned why the government couldn’t have used a quicker medium like the telephone to convey the message. Indian media reported that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was upset that the message of Guru’s hanging reached his family so late. ”As a human being, I find it very difficult to reconcile myself to the fact that we executed a person who was not given the opportunity to see his family for the last time,” Abdullah, Kashmir’s CM, told the Indian television channel CNN-IBN. “If in this day and age, we are relying on speed post to inform a family that their loved one is going to be executed, there is something seriously wrong.”

On Wednesday, the two-storied house where Guru spent all his free life was silent with grief. Tabassum, Guru’s wife and a paramedic in a nursing home in Sopore, sat in a corner of the living room, her face buried in her arms. When a neighbor came to offer condolences, she stood up and hugged them with dry eyes. She says she still hasn’t had the courage to read the last letter that her husband had written to her from Tihar Jail, where he had been imprisoned for the past 11 years. “When the news of his hanging broke out, it was more than mourning,” says Haji Farooq Ahmed Guru, Guru’s cousin. “He died as a martyr.”

Guru’s guilt was never established in the mind of many Kashmiris, who believe that he was falsely implicated in the case and was not given a fair trial. After he was sentenced to death, Kashmir’s chief minister Omar Abdullah often warned the central government that his hanging could have serious consequences. It would not be the first time. In February 1984, Maqbool Bhat (or Butt), a Kashmiri separatist leader and founder of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), of which Guru too was a former member, was also hanged in Tihar Jail for the murder of a Crime Investigation Department (CID) inspector. After Bhat’s execution, the valley exploded into a full-blown insurgency for almost three decades, a fact that was not lost in New Delhi as they planned their clampdown last week. “Most of the youngsters who are on the forefront at present were not even born when Bhat was executed,” says Khurram Pervez, a social activist in Srinagar. “Still he became the hero… [Guru] has lived in [the youth’s] heart as they have themselves witnessed everything. His death has only cemented the belief of hatred and radicalization among Kashmiris.”

Many in Kashmir, and elsewhere in India, see broader political maneuvers in Guru’s sudden hanging, carried out in absolute secrecy by the state. Until very recently, the last time India put somebody to death was in 2004. But Guru was hanged a mere few months after 26/11 attack convict Ajmal Kasab, one of 10 Pakistani terrorists who laid a siege in Mumbai in 2008, was executed. The opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) had been clamoring for Guru’s execution and accusing the ruling government of being soft on terrorism. New Delhi was also drubbed after Pakistani soldiers allegedly violated the border last month and cut off the head of one Indian soldier, reportedly in retaliation for Indian attacks on Pakistani troops. Critics have said the back-to-back achieved simultaneous political ends: to silence the opposition and to win back public confidence ahead of 2014 elections after the ruling Congress party has been beset by a string of scandals. “It does project the image of a government that is being reasonably determined in dealing with national security issues at a time when it is being accused of various other lapses,” says C. Uday Bhaskar, a Delhi-based political analyst. “It does shore up its image.”

It is unclear whether the valley will descend into further protests, as New Delhi feared when it put controls in place last week. Many Kashmiri youth today have more faith in the political process than in arms. “When Bhat was hanged I was not born. When I came to read about him later, he became our hero,” says Arifa Gani, a student of Masters in Diplomacy and Statecraft from University of Birmingham, UK. “I have never felt the way I am feeling this time [after Guru’s execution]… We will retaliate, but we won’t take to arms like our elders. We will react more intelligently.”

http://world.time.com/2013/02/15/the-hanging-of-afzal-guru-how-an-execution-is-roiling-kashmir/
 
To push the topic back to the subject of this thread, someone up above put up a video of Afzal Guru confessing his crime. Here is Afzal Guru's letter to his lawyer, in full. We all know how easy it to get a man to confess in South Asia. Please re-view the video in this context.

Interesting, looks like he was hanged on the basis of a forced confession

Has his body been handed back to his family yet?
 
afzal guru be gunah mara gaya ...was victim of politics , he was trapped in all this .
were is india sleeping when their army behave like terriorist in kashmir and kill people for fun , rape , destroy structures .. india democracy never reaches kashmir .. people get caged in kashmir .. impose strict curfew , ban cable tv and internet services wow what a democracy.. this hanging has increased hatred in kashmiris towards india .. from 96% to 100% , 3 innocent got killed last week from crpf , were is justice ? if india says kashmir is their part then why they didnt keep kashmir same like other states on hanging guru
why curfew is imposed .. ban of media, cause india knows they dont have any support in kashmir and it was never their part .. just by force kashmir is with india ...
guru was tortured so much in kashmir and then was forced to do these things , made him confess on tv that he did it ..
 
Back
Top