Pak "A" v Aus "A" (2nd test) score thread (17-20 sept)

[Amjid Javed]

game starts tmoz 17th sept - 20th sept

pakistan lead series 1-0 with 1 game to play.

place SCORE UPDATES ONLY on this thread

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Events/Australia_A_in_Pakistan_2005-06.html

 

[waquas_uk]

anywhere to watch this game?

 

[DM]

I cannot wait!! Hopefully by some miracle Yasir Ali plays and then he and Irshad can demolish Australia



And to keep in topic, the score's 0/0 off 0.0 overs

 

[Bitman]

Any team news?

 

[Nauman]

Well Shahid Nazir, Umar Gul, Sami and Salman Butt are not playing which means we might see Yasir Ali, Irshad or Najaf Shah.

 

[Mercenary]

Yasir Ali wasnt picked in the squad announced yesterday. If this match is anything like the first one then we wont get any update till the end of the days play at around 1600 hours London time! Below is the 15 man squad for this game...

Pakistan A
Misbahul Haq (captain),
Zulqarnain (wicketkeeper),
Asher Zaidi,
Imran Farhat,
Bazid Khan,
Hasan Raza,
Faisal Iqbal,
Mansoor Amjad,
Muhammad Asif,
Muhammad Irshad,
Yasir Arafat,
Muhammad Khalil,
Shahid Yousuf,
Najaf Shah,
Nomanullah.

Australia A
Brad Haddin (New South Wales, captain),
Michael Hussey (Western Australia),
Nathan Bracken (NSW),
Stuart Clark (NSW),
Daniel Cullen (South Australia),
Brad Hodge (Victoria),
James Hopes (Queensland),
Phil Jaques (NSW),
Michael Lewis (Victoria),
Marcus North (Western Australia),
Dominic Thornely (NSW),
Shane Watson (Queensland),
Mitchell Johnson (Queensland)
Cameron White (Victoria).

 

[MIG]

Cant believe that we have no PPers in Pak who can provide some updates ! Maybe I should check with Babu...

 

[hasan316]

where can we watch this game?

 

[MIG]

Unfortuantely - only in Pakistan !

 

[DM]

updates please, i'm dying for them! Is Irshad playing? Is Yasir Ali playing?

 

[hello143]

Latest update : Australia 220/ 2

Don't know who took the wickets.. Thats all i know now.

 

[DM]

thanks hello

doesn't look good....

 

[tahaqureshi]

And as per reports, sami and gul arent playing, I guess it shows they are our best bowlers doesnt it?

 

[Somali Pirate]

could'nt careless.good thing about this game is asif n khalil won't play again.........i hope

 

[Toony™®]

318/5 stumps

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/f/0/ff859.html

 

[KaSaNoVa_G]

day belongs to the aussies then....

 

[arsal_pakfan]

i hope we sneak a draw here so that we will win the series automatically!...i dont think with with this lineup we can beat them!

 

[Amjid Javed]

alot of pressure will fall upon pak "A" openers ashar zaid and imran farhat to perform. they will have to top anything malik/butt did in 1st game...

 

[DM]

anyone have any links to a report? How did our bowlers play?

 

[zaf1986]

Ashar Zaidi and Imran Farhat have a good chance to stake their claim for an opening slot for the Tests. The pitch seems flat, and fingers crossed they will do well..

 

[floatingslip]

scorecard

http://www.pcb.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/f/0/ff859.html

 

[OTW]

James Hopes opening? Thought he was a middle order bat - surprised that Phil Jaques is sitting out though. Jaques over bits-and-pieces Thornley (with Hopes then coming in the middle order) might have been a better bet. Still, kudos to Hopes to putting up the runs opening.

[Edit: Yep, he batted in the middle order for QLD, usually at six. Even more of a surprise then...]

 

[Jahangir Khan]

If this is a flat pitch and the Aussie A batsmen cashed in, there is no reason why the Pak A players can't do the same. The Aus A bowlers are not worldbeaters so the likes of Farhat, Misbah, Bazid, Raza and Faisal Iqbal can all score big when their turn comes.

Hopefully we can skittle them for under 400 tomorrow before building a big score. Don't forget that we have some of our best young hopes playing in this game. If we avoid defeat in this game, I would consider it a better achievement than winning the 1st game as we have more inexperienced players here, especially the bowlers.

Maybe Irshad and Najaf can show what they can do with an old ball tomorrow.

 

[Mercenary]

could'nt careless.good thing about this game is asif n khalil won't play again.........i hope

to be fair khalil isnt playing and Asif outperformed Irshad who got a spanking! I guess Woolmer knows what he's talking about when he says Irshad is still raw!

I hope day 2 sees an upturn in Irshad, Najafs and Mansoors fortunes.

I cant believe Faisal Iqbal and Bazid Khan and Misbah Ul Haq are playing in place of Shahid Yousaf

 

[Amjid Javed]

James Hopes opening? Thought he was a middle order bat - surprised that Phil Jaques is sitting out though. Jaques over bits-and-pieces Thornley (with Hopes then coming in the middle order) might have been a better bet. Still, kudos to Hopes to putting up the runs opening.

[Edit: Yep, he batted in the middle order for QLD, usually at six. Even more of a surprise then...]

#

james hopes is nothing more than a bits & pieces player. bats and bowls abit..
am shocked he opened and scored so many runs!

 

[Mercenary]

i think OTW said Thornley is a bits and pieces player

 

[tahaqureshi]

Irshad failed to impress. He got enough quota to prove himself. I've realised now that ppl on PP love to talk as if they cricket muftis, but in reality they dont know the first thing about Pakistan domestic cricketers. I dont expect anything form Yasir Ali either. Sami, Rana, Gul and Akhtar are our best bowlers and it hopefully stay that way for a long time to come.

 

[Mercenary]

Irshad failed to impress. He got enough quota to prove himself. I've realised now that ppl on PP love to talk as if they cricket muftis, but in reality they dont know the first thing about Pakistan domestic cricketers. I dont expect anything form Yasir Ali either. Sami, Rana, Gul and Akhtar are our best bowlers and it hopefully stay that way for a long time to come.

And u based that on one days bowling did you? This is Irshad's first bowl at some top batsmen on what seems to be a very flat pitch.

Do you expect him to take 20 wikets in his debut test as well?

 

[Nauman]

Australia A first innings    Runs	Balls	Mins    4s	6s
MEK Hussey	lbw b Mohammad Asif    15			  	  
JR Hopes	b Mohammad Asif    146			  	  
MJ North	b Mansoor Amjad    18			  	  
BJ Hodge	c Bazid Khan b Najaf Shah    68			  	  
DJ Thornely	run out    21			  	  
SR Watson	not out    20			  	  
*+BJ Haddin	not out    5			  	  
CL White	still to bat	 
ML Lewis	still to bat	 
DJ Cullen	still to bat	 
SR Clark	still to bat	 
Extras	(5 b, 1 lb, 19 nb)	25
Total	(5 wickets, 90 overs)	318
Fall of wickets:
1-84, 2-149, 3-243, 4-284, 5-308
Pakistan A bowling	Overs    Mdns	Runs	Wkts    Wides	No-Balls
Mohammad Asif	20	   3	80	2    -	-
Najaf Shah	13	   3	41	1    -	-
Mohammad Irshad	14	   2	60	0    -	-
Mansoor Amjad	23	   3	73	1    -	-
Ashar Zaidi	13	   0	34	0    -	-
Imran Farhat	7	   1	24	0    -	-

 

[Rob H]

I wonder what Haddin and Watson will do tomorrow. They are both hit and miss players.

 

[Amjid Javed]

i think OTW said Thornley is a bits and pieces player

thats strange. thornley rarely bowls in 1st class cricket (3/4 day games etc).

Hes a batsmen who can at times turn his arm over mainly in LOI games (odd occasion).

james hopes in all reality is probably the equivalent of a azhar mahmood etc... hes not to flash with bat or ball!

 

[Amjid Javed]

I wonder what Haddin and Watson will do tomorrow. They are both hit and miss players.

cameron white can bat aswell... so pak "A" bowlers still have alot to do.

 

[OTW]

i think OTW said Thornley is a bits and pieces player

I'd rate Hopes as more than just a bits and pieces cricketer.

Last season he played a major role in QLD getting to the Pura cup final, scoring 600+ runs at an average of over 40, and taking 18 wickets (two more than Watson, 5 fewer than Ash Noffke) at a very decent average of 26.44. He's no more than medium pace though, very similar to Scott Styris or Dwayne Bravo. Somewhere along with Andrew Symonds as far as all rounder potential goes IMO.

Thornley had an excellent season last year for NSW with the bat (scored 1000+ runs), but his bowling is nothing to write home about (unlike Hopes, who in fact did quite a good job with the ball in the one ODI he played against New Zealand. I reckon if he can nail down a place in the side, he could definitely fill in 7-10 good overs in ODIs, and be a useful side bowler to keep an end tight if he ever does play tests).

Thornley doesn't bowl too much for NSW which is understandable given the Blues' bowling strengths. Last season they had Clark/Bracken/Nicholson/MacGill forming a very potent attack, and with Jason Krezja and Doug Bollinger also bowling quite a bit, it's not surprising that Thornley rarely was given the option to bowl. Shows that he's not in that class bowling-wise, but more of a genuine part-timer.

In contrast, when playing for Surrey, Thornley bowled a heck of a lot more (given the weak Surrey attack) and had negligible success. IIRC, he took on the role of first-change bowler in one game and was ineffective.

 

[Mercenary]

Jaques over bits-and-pieces Thornley (with Hopes then coming in the middle order) might have been a better bet.

The text inside the brackets is an aside, read the complete sentence in bold. OTW says that Jaques would have been a better bet than bits and pieces Thornley.

 

[Mercenary]

if Thornley is a good batsman then he isnt a bits and pieces player is he

 

[Amjid Javed]

Merc, i think OTW has confused most peeps with contradicting statements.

hopes - bits & pieces player

thornley & hodge - Good batsmen who turn there arms over (hodge more so)

OTW, i recon jaques has been left out to give others ago. it wont be a cricketing decision.

 

[OTW]

if Thornley is a good batsman then he isnt a bits and pieces player is he

One good season for NSW. That's it; and I don't yet rate him as a batsman per se, especially given that just a season before that, he was incapable of holding a place in a NSW first XI (12 innings, average of 28.58. And in that season, bowled a lot more regularly).

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2003-04_NSW.html - Here's the data.

 

[Amjid Javed]

OTW, ive spoken to a few aussies at work and they recon that the future
for aussies isnt all bright.

Aussies still have the batting coming thru and a new leg spinner may come thru "the
academy". however, i was told that the seamer department aint to clever at moment.

Also unlike past years aussies under 19 sides, which have produced talent down years, have been pretty poor over last few years.

 

[Amjid Javed]

One good season for NSW. That's it; and I don't yet rate him as a batsman per se, especially given that just a season before that, he was incapable of holding a place in a NSW first XI (12 innings, average of 28.58. And in that season, bowled a lot more regularly).

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2003-04_NSW.html - Here's the data.

i seen him bat for surrey albeit in county cricket and he looked pretty good. then agen u may have a valid point. most overseas players fill there boots in county cricket.

 

[Somali Pirate]

Mohammad Irshad 14 2 60 0

Damn!

 

[Aurangzeb]

i told you so...irshad is overhyped...what happened buddy? i thought you could reverse it both ways at 90mph...the next shoaib? i think not...

 

[OTW]

i told you so...irshad is overhyped...what happened buddy? i thought you could reverse it both ways at 90mph...the next shoaib? i think not...

Calling him overhyped on the basis of 14 overs is about as bright as calling him the next big thing on the basis of one or two quick spells. Only a period of time on the international circuit will determine whether or not he really does have the ability, or whether it's all just hype.

 

[Officer Barbrady]

Najaf usually does a pretty good job in these A team matches and once again has pretty decent figures. Any way Pakistan did pick a ok side and a decent performance given the strength of the Aussie batting.

 

[Usman]

After a long injury lay off, no Umer Gul = no logic = no brains!

 

[Hash]

Calling him overhyped on the basis of 14 overs is about as bright as calling him the next big thing on the basis of one or two quick spells. Only a period of time on the international circuit will determine whether or not he really does have the ability, or whether it's all just hype.

well said.

 

[DM]

Calling him overhyped on the basis of 14 overs is about as bright as calling him the next big thing on the basis of one or two quick spells. Only a period of time on the international circuit will determine whether or not he really does have the ability, or whether it's all just hype.

seconded

Having not even seen him, i'd easily take Irshad over Khalil, Asif because i've seen what the latter can do and they don't cut the mustard whereas Irshad is as yet an unknown quantity and can bowl 90+mph. Yes speed is a factor.

 

[Somali Pirate]

seconded

Having not even seen him, i'd easily take Irshad over Khalil, Asif because i've seen what the latter can do and they don't cut the mustard whereas Irshad is as yet an unknown quantity and can bowl 90+mph. Yes speed is a factor.

u seem to be obsessed with pace.Understand that fast bowling is more than just pace.

 

[DM]

my obsession is with the seemingly lack of recognition amongst some fans of the value of pace in international cricket. I take solace in the fact that at least professionally, this isn't the case, where for example in the West Indies, one of the only fast youngsters with almost no cricket experience whatsoever make the test team ahead of many more experienced medium-pacers (eg Fidel Edwards) and many other similar examples around the world.

 

[Somali Pirate]

dm

pace is only lethal with good accuracy and L&L.Otherwise it is useless.

by the way fidel average is pathetic in tests.whereas medium pacer collymore n collins are much better

 

[Prince]

Exactly, I'd easily take Irshad and Yasir Ali over Khalil and Asif. Pace is a special weapon and if it is used accurately, it can be absolutely deadly. Medium-paced trundlers don't get you anywhere...lets throw Irshad and Yasir Ali in and see whether they can cut it in international cricket.

 

[razzler]

Exactly, I'd easily take Irshad and Yasir Ali over Khalil and Asif. Pace is a special weapon and if it is used accurately, it can be absolutely deadly. Medium-paced trundlers don't get you anywhere...lets throw Irshad and Yasir Ali in and see whether they can cut it in international cricket.

I am against this for now. A couple of more A tours and good showing in them coupled with atleast a one or two more good domestic seasons then they should be given a chance.

 

[Somali Pirate]

Exactly, I'd easily take Irshad and Yasir Ali over Khalil and Asif. Pace is a special weapon and if it is used accurately, it can be absolutely deadly. Medium-paced trundlers don't get you anywhere...lets throw Irshad and Yasir Ali in and see whether they can cut it in international cricket.

nice logic.Throw youngsters in to the sea without grooming them properly.

 

[Monsee]

This is what I wrote yesterday (in the Pak A thread) and looks like it will come true too

I predict a defeat for Pak A

With bowlers like M. Asif and Khalil instead of Yasir Ali...its a crying shame

Now everyone knows why I was so upset when Misbah didn't give Yasir Ali enough overs in that practice game between Pak whites and greens...I knew right there that the poor boy is getting set up

M.Asif and Khalil both will play and Aussie A will score 400-500 and will bowl us out quite cheaply...anyone knows Bari's home Address

Go Bari go , select Trundlers over real prospects...I hope I am wrong but Aussies will not loose from here barring a big collapse

 

[Officer Barbrady]

This is what I wrote yesterday (in the Pak A thread) and looks like it will come true too

Go Bari go , select Trundlers over real prospects...I hope I am wrong but Aussies will not loose from here barring a big collapse

Surprised to see that you say nothing about the coach who very much has a say in selection and is involved with the A team at the moment. He is the one who rates Khalil highly not Bari.

Woolmer says he liked what he saw of Shahid Yousuf and Ashar Zaidi and regardless of their domestic stats they have been selected since. If he really wanted Yasir Ali in the team he would have played.

 

[Officer Barbrady]

my obsession is with the seemingly lack of recognition amongst some fans of the value of pace in international cricket. I take solace in the fact that at least professionally, this isn't the case, where for example in the West Indies, one of the only fast youngsters with almost no cricket experience whatsoever make the test team ahead of many more experienced medium-pacers (eg Fidel Edwards) and many other similar examples around the world.

DM, have you thought of the possibility that perhaps we do not have an express bowler available at the moment? Bob Woolmer keeps insisting that he would love to have an express option playing for the senior team IF there was one available. He is not a stupid man by all accounts so perhaps we should look into the possibility that Irshad may be overhyped just like Raiz Afridi, Rao and others before him. Or that he really really isn't ready to play test cricket.

I'd reserve judgment till I watch Irshad in action. Most of us still haven't seen Irshad or even Yasir Ali in action so far. We go by rumors and Aaqib Javed interviews, who also believes Asif and Yasser Arafat are the best bowlers in domestic cricket. These two have played and were ordinary and unless things have drastically changed in a matter of months, Aaqib was wrong.

 

[Hussain]

320-5

 

[Officer Barbrady]

320-5

You mean today they have added the two runs?

 

[Baron]

The one thing the Aussies regularly produce are tough strong batting lineups, so seeing our boys struggle isnt surprising. Remember guys, when you play at this level you need to bowl well, at the right spots, with consistency and with movement. You cant hope to pick up wickets by simply bowling quick as we've seen the Pak bowlers of recent doing (Sami and Akhtar). Its quite telling that our best bowler at the moment is Rana. The key is to pick a balanced attack and not to pick another erratic ultra quick bowler who occassionally does the business. Thats why Bob isnt even putting Irshad in the picture yet and focussing his attentions towards Gul and Rana. Personally i think, Gul is exactly the type of bowler we're looking and if god willing, Sami and Akthar, especially Sami, can pick it up and bowl more consistent and with some movement. Then we should be able to challenge England properly. However, if they go in with the usual dumb notion of bowling just quick, they will honest to god get pummelled all over the ground all day by England, as whats happened to Lee in the Ashes.

 

[Saj]

some very good points there Baron. I've been saying this for a good few years, its not just about pace and running up to bowl as fast as you can.

 

[Hussain]

You mean today they have added the two runs?

yep
tht was the latest update i cud get

 

[Aurangzeb]

i wouldn't take a guy based on pace alone...i think we all know by now our good friend mohammad sami who only posesses pace and nothing else and how he fares...i'd take a guy like gul or even rao over sami to head my attack...pace alone does not trouble batsmen at this level...they laugh at pace...movement off the seam, swinging deliveries, tight line and length are the real keys to success...just ask the world's best bowler glen macgrath...

 

[Nauman]

Wether you like it or not at the end of the day a 9 out of 10 successfull bowlers will be those who bowled at atleast above 85mph anything lower than that is unacceptable in test cricket unless you have accuracy of Richard Hadlee, Glen McGrath or Shaun Pollock. That doesnt mean you only need pace you need to have pace and decent amount of control unfortunately Sami has pace but doesnt possess any control what so ever.

 

[Naz]

hopefully openers perform on this flat deck.

 

[Amjid Javed]

UPDATE ON games - says no play 2day!!

anyone know why?

 

[MWH]

From Woolmer's site:

" Yes today's play was washed out because water went under the covers and flooded the pitch. "

 

[Somali Pirate]

Wether you like it or not at the end of the day a 9 out of 10 successfull bowlers will be those who bowled at atleast above 85mph anything lower than that is unacceptable in test cricket unless you have accuracy of Richard Hadlee, Glen McGrath or Shaun Pollock. That doesnt mean you only need pace you need to have pace and decent amount of control unfortunately Sami has pace but doesnt possess any control what so ever.

hmph.....so guys like vaas,hoggard,glenn mcgrath,pollock are not acceptable in test cricket,

 

[Pathan007]

about Aus A
REPLY BY: BOB, (18 Sep 2005, 07h47:48)
Hi talalahmed,
1. Yes today's play was washed out because water went under the covers and flooded the pitch. The first day we bolwed well on a very flat surface.

 

[Nauman]

hmph.....so guys like vaas,hoggard,glenn mcgrath,pollock are not acceptable in test cricket,

I explicitly singled out McGrath and Pollock and you can hardly call Vass and Hoggard world class bowlers.

 

[Pathan007]

Vass without a doubt is World class bowler.

 

[Usman]

I explicitly singled out McGrath and Pollock and you can hardly call Vass and Hoggard world class bowlers.

Hoggard is not yet a world class bowler but Vass is without a doubt a world class bowler, I would rate him atleast in my top 10.

 

[DM]

by the way fidel average is pathetic in tests.whereas medium pacer collymore n collins are much better

You're missing my point - by saying i rate the value of pace very highly (and looking at history, rightly so) i am not saying that i do not value medium pacers. The point i'm making is that when someone comes along who bowls at 150kph, he is more likely than a slower bowler to make a team (and again, looking at history/statistics, rightly so).

 

[Somali Pirate]

hoggard is the work horse of the england team....the strike bowler.he won the game in trent bridge for eng and picked wickets too in the oval

In fact IN SA my friend he was the reason england won the series in the first place.

 

[DM]

DM, have you thought of the possibility that perhaps we do not have an express bowler available at the moment? Bob Woolmer keeps insisting that he would love to have an express option playing for the senior team IF there was one available. He is not a stupid man by all accounts so perhaps we should look into the possibility that Irshad may be overhyped just like Raiz Afridi, Rao and others before him. Or that he really really isn't ready to play test cricket.

I'd reserve judgment till I watch Irshad in action. Most of us still haven't seen Irshad or even Yasir Ali in action so far. We go by rumors and Aaqib Javed interviews, who also believes Asif and Yasser Arafat are the best bowlers in domestic cricket. These two have played and were ordinary and unless things have drastically changed in a matter of months, Aaqib was wrong.

Good post bro. And to reply to your opening question, yes, i have considered and if you look at many of the team threads (i've posted about 4 recently) i usually add:
"Mohammad Irshad (if 150kph)
Yasir Ali (if 150kph)"

So yes of course if Irshad is not as fast as he is purported to be, then i would not include him in the team (unless of course he is metronomically accurate, has brilliant swing or any other standout qualities)

 

[DM]

hmph.....so guys like vaas,hoggard,glenn mcgrath,pollock are not acceptable in test cricket,

they are exceptions for slow pacers. A higher proportion of 150kph bowlers succeed in test cricket, and when they do, they are the best in terms of factors such strike rate and usually in terms of average. This is why people are "obsessed" with an express pacer when he comes along.

 

[DM]

nice logic.Throw youngsters in to the sea without grooming them properly.

That can be the best way to learn to swim. It worked well for Waqar. He was a teenager. As were players like Akram and Mohammad Zahid. Michael Holding was about 20, as was Ntini. Fidel Edwards hardly played cricket before his debut yet he's already looking one of their most lethal bowlers.

Even if they start their test careers poorly with 0-100 as Jeff Thomson did, or Shoaib Akhtar (who had a huge average in the high 30s and early 40s) or Fidel Edwards' early matches, they'll eventually come good as Jeff Thomson and Shoaib Akhtar did and Fidel is now producing better results because they add accuracy to their gift of 150kph pace - developing pace is an awful lot more difficult than developing accuracy and some like Dennis Lillee say almost impossible (though i can think of two outsanding examples of developing express pace - Malcom Marshall and Imran - but they're exceptions to the rule "you're born fast"). Irshad is about 24 now, so if he really is as fast as they say, we shouldn't be taking long with his inclusion.

 

[Toony™®]

no play becos of rain..lol - 2 days left for the ozzies to save themselves from another series defeat.

 

[Amjid Javed]

no play becos of rain..lol - 2 days left for the ozzies to save themselves from another series defeat.

with a damp pitch it cud now become a seamers paradise!

 

[Somali Pirate]

they are exceptions for slow pacers. A higher proportion of 150kph bowlers succeed in test cricket, and when they do, they are the best in terms of factors such strike rate and usually in terms of average. This is why people are "obsessed" with an express pacer when he comes along.

other than harmy,freddie,bond,shoaib and ntini....can u tell me who else is a fear factor now.

U can put your exceptions to failures like fidel,tino,sami as well

 

[Somali Pirate]

That can be the best way to learn to swim. It worked well for Waqar. He was a teenager. As were players like Akram and Mohammad Zahid. Michael Holding was about 20, as was Ntini. Fidel Edwards hardly played cricket before his debut yet he's already looking one of their most lethal bowlers.

Even if they start their test careers poorly with 0-100 as Jeff Thomson did, or Shoaib Akhtar (who had a huge average in the high 30s and early 40s) or Fidel Edwards' early matches, they'll eventually come good as Jeff Thomson and Shoaib Akhtar did and Fidel is now producing better results because they add accuracy to their gift of 150kph pace - developing pace is an awful lot more difficult than developing accuracy and some like Dennis Lillee say almost impossible (though i can think of two outsanding examples of developing express pace - Malcom Marshall and Imran - but they're exceptions to the rule "you're born fast"). Irshad is about 24 now, so if he really is as fast as they say, we shouldn't be taking long with his inclusion.

just because it worked for waqar does'nt mean it will work for sami.Should'nt sami be averasging waqar's of 19 by now.

When you don't teach youngsters the complete art of bowling then they become clueless.

 

[Baron]

Ok, the main point is for Pakistan to present a bowling lineup that is varied in the pace department. Whether we like it or not, we do need a Vaas or Mcgrath type of bowler in our side, that will keep the opposition batting guessing. However, the Sami and Akthar of today can not compare with the Waqar and Wasim of yesteryear. Even when they were raw and bowling fast, they always used move the ball. Not sure where Bobs seeing Sami and Akthar swing the ball but i havent seen it for ages. If they do manage to, they only do it a tiny amount and seldom in the right areas. Something that is worrying especially when the English bowlers do it so much and so well.

Theres a comment Inzi made that made no sense. According to him, the English will be unable to swing the ball in Pakistan. Anyone please correct me but didnt Pathan, Nehra and darkman Balaji turn the ball around corners??? And if im wrong, our premier bowlers, Sami and Akthar, couldnt even get it to move in gale force winds!