tyron_woodley
T20I Debutant
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2019
- Runs
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india in odi would win.
india would win t20
draw in test. both are equal.
india would win t20
draw in test. both are equal.
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Based on those XIs you just mentioned I’d say pakistan but would replace zaheer with perhaps ijaz Ahmed who I thought was very good against India. Tempted to add Shoaib akhtar somewhere but don’t know where.
I still think in Test definitely and in ODI marginally PAK will be ahead, but not for long.
This thread was opened just about a decade back - since then, AT Indian ODI XI has added 3 players in playing XI (means the squad has improved from that point) - Kohli, Sharma, Bumrah. PAK has added may be Babar in squad ......
In Test squad, last PAK entry in the squad will be YK, debuted 20 years back, since then IND has added probably 3 men in playing XI - Kohli, Ashwin & one of Ishant, Shami, Bumrah. A 4th man (Sehwag) debuted few months ahead of YK I believe.
And, if I make a 2nd XI, that comparison will be almost insulting in last 20 years.
This is what happens when you lease your own cricket development to 3rd party and boast on talent .......
I understand you have seen Ijaz's 139* at Lahore and never Zaheer Abbas, but at least try CricInfo some times........
I think one of the reasons why India have an upper hand in ODIs over Pakistan is that Pakistan even with any of their team have never been able to win a World cup match against India. They had the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Miandad in some of those games back in 90s while Indian team was highly mediocre with Azharrudin and a 18 yr old Tendulkar only making it in all time ODI XI for India.
It's after the turn of the millennium that Dhoni, Yuvraj, Kohli, Rohit and Bumrah happened to India and all these walk into ODI sides comfortably. India not only have the skills and ability in that lineup but also has delivered under crunch situations which is why we have two world cup wins and better world cup head to head record.
Pakistan also have been a good team in big matches and under pressure as their record suggest against South Africa or England or NZ but perhaps not convincing enough against India.
Hey hey i have seen Zaheer Abbas play but just think that the 1999 Pakistan team jelled well and were unbeatable for their time which included Ijaz Ahmed.
It's difficult to judge but looking at the records yes Zaheer had an average of 50 against India and SR of 97 but that was based off of 13 matches only.
Whereas Ijaz has played 50+ matches against India, has an average of around 35 and SR just under 80 which is fairly decent.
Although Zaheer looked good, it would have been interesting had he played more cricket against India but i did come across his innings against Australia in Australia where he looked nothing short of phenomenal.
Tests
Pakistan:
Saeed Anwar
Hanif
Mohammed Yousuf
Miandad
Younis Khan
Imran Khan (c)
Moin Khan
Wasim Akram
Abdul Qadir
Waqar Younis
Shoaib Akhtar
India:
Sehwag
Gavaskar
Kohli
Tendulkar
Azharuddin
Kapil Dev
Dhoni
Srinath
Zaheer Khan
Shami
Bedi (capt.)
Pakistan would win due to greater pace power. Unless India came up with some real Bunsen wickets.
Dravid is a must. Drop Azhar as he averages 27 and 23 Vs Aus and SA respectively and 41 Vs England.
Also Latif instead of Moin in Pak XI.
Zaheer Abbas has 1800 Test runs against India at an average of 87, and that SR will be over 70, in 1970s & 1980s....
Zaheer played only 62 ODI hence, he is beaten by volume - if you ignore that, he'll make the all-time ODI squad. ODI context has changed so much over the period that talking stats is useless - these days Josh Butler has better figures than some Vivian Richards (If you had seen Zaheer, must have seen this fella Vivian as well). Zaheer had a career stats of 48/86, in an era when Viv had 47/90 ..... and guys like GG Grineedge ~46/62, Gooch ~38/61, AB 30/69, Haynes ~42/65 ..... that should be eye opener.
Zaheer's game was built on front-foot drives with God gifted timing & wrists, something very similar to Graeme Hick 2 decades later - and both were monsters in County cricket, because of the average speed and use of bouncers in County cricket. That was the reason, both were much inferior Test batsman, but in LO cricket - Zaheer was a different beast, matched Viv stats by stats with a little footnote - Viv never played his own bowlers, Zaheer did.
And, if you add one more filter - how those runs were scored, very few in history will match him. And, those runs were scored with a 2 pound 3 oz bat!!!!!!
You are right. Zaheer is definitely the better of the two you can say and not going to disagree with anything you've said there bro. Very much a majestic batsman.
I stand corrected but still think that squad could use Shoaib Akhtar somewhere as he used to have a knack of getting Tendulkar out. Perhaps you could be bold and play 4 seamers and just one spinner which leaves either Mushi or Afridi out. Only saying this as India and Asian teams as a whole play spin better than pace.
Pakistan all time test team would thrash India on decent pitches. India can win on dust bowls
In ODI it will be a closer battle given all time greats India have produced recently
T20s India ahead.
modern india play pace and bounce way better. Post 2010 india are far better vs pace and bounce. They actually struggle vs quality spin.
modern india play pace and bounce way better. Post 2010 india are far better vs pace and bounce. They actually struggle vs quality spin.
india in odi would win.
india would win t20
draw in test. both are equal.
Pak well above in test, India has no fast bowlers
bumrah
shami
srinath
zaheer
ishant
more than good emough. india would beat pakistan in sub continent, australia and south africa. pakistan would only win in England and new zealand. indian all time is underrated in tests. they would beat almost everyone at home. Actually they would beat everyone at home. Away with depth in bowling it would be competitive.
They haven't played enough. Zaheer, Ishant would struggle to be in top 10 pak fast bowlers ever. Srinath not top five. Bumrah and Shami have need to play significantly more tests to qualify. Othwerise blokes like Cummins would already be in their countries all time team. Shami still averages like 27, well below pak's top four.
My teams would be:
Pak:
Hanif
Saeed Anwar
Younis Khan
Miandad
Inzamam
Yousuf
Mushtaq Mohammad
Imran
Wasim
Bari
Waqar
Shoaib
Ind:
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Kohli
Hazare
Dhoni
Dev
Srinath
Kumble
Bedi
Pak bowling blows India's out of the water
They haven't played enough. Zaheer, Ishant would struggle to be in top 10 pak fast bowlers ever. Srinath not top five. Bumrah and Shami have need to play significantly more tests to qualify. Othwerise blokes like Cummins would already be in their countries all time team. Shami still averages like 27, well below pak's top four.
My teams would be:
Pak:
Hanif
Saeed Anwar
Younis Khan
Miandad
Inzamam
Yousuf
Mushtaq Mohammad
Imran
Wasim
Bari
Waqar
Shoaib
Ind:
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Kohli
Hazare
Dhoni
Dev
Srinath
Kumble
Bedi
Pak bowling blows India's out of the water
put shami in there. Ah not played enough hey?
Yea makes sense. Based on the team above I would give india the edge in sub continent flat pattas, turning pitches and still in my opinion would have the edge in australua.
pakistan would have the edge in New zealand, England.
so overall I still believe India has a slight edge. Add in shami in the future, bumrah etc.
averages are not everything. philander averages 22. We all know that he is overrated.
shami is more than good enough to hurt the pakistan batsmen.
Even based on the above mentioned teams, take out bedi and put in shami. It changes the whole composition of the team.
India would win in subcontinent slow patta pitches, rank turners and in Australian plus south african conditions. Their record suggests so. Pakistan have always been terrible players of bounce.
pakistan would beat india in englsnd and new zeland. overall I would say india still has the edge in tests.
srinath and zaheer peaked late and their averages could have been a lot better had they been supported well by first change bowlers.
With an all star t3am that support would exist hence making that trio a formidable one.
Averages indicate a lot, I agree not everything. Philander is better than any Indian pacer except maybe Dev. Shami hasn't been that good. In Johnson, Lee tier at best, well below Gillespie, Broad tier never mind Waqar, Wasim and Imran. Srinath, Zaheer not even that good
K Shami with an average of 27 can go in, doesn't make a huge difference. Pak better in SA and WI easily. Ind have only done well in Aus recently, used to get smashed. Pak would also win in SL, ball often swings a bit
Averages indicate a lot, I agree not everything. Philander is better than any Indian pacer except maybe Dev. Shami hasn't been that good. In Johnson, Lee tier at best, well below Gillespie, Broad tier never mind Waqar, Wasim and Imran. Srinath, Zaheer not even that good
I think Pakistan would still win because Test cricket is the pure format without any modern modifications. An all time Pakistan XI would have a batting order certainly able to be on Par/match with India on the same track. India may score 400 runs at the loss of one wicket on Day 1, the same ATG Pakistan side would score 350 for the loss of 2-3 on Day 1.
Batting would be India’s edge, but there is no edge on Day 5 for any team and spinners operating. And ATG Indian team could fall to Swann and Panesar on Day 5 on a dustbowl.
For me Pakistan takes the edge because it’s bowling resources for day 1-2-3 would be much more potent. Whilst India’s current Test bowlers are great, they still have a long time to establish their name as Test ATGs
Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Miandad
Younis
Yousuf
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Sarfaraz Ahmed wk (can’t think of anyone better)
Imran khan (c)
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis
Abdul Qadir
Plus Imran’s charisma and ability to turn average players into fighters is an important factor. As I said, I believe that you have to have bowlers who can make huge breakthroughs on day 1-2-3 to win Test matches. India’s bowlers are most likely to take the game away from you on Day 4-5 whereas they would just keep their batsmen in the game on the first 3 days of a Test match on Sub continent tracks
I definitely wouldn't pick phainlader over any of our bowlers in non SENA conditions. For SENA? sure.
pakistan is definitely not better in south africa. not a chance. pakistan have a terrible track record there. India will outplay them on any bouncy tracks. period. Far better players of bounce. shami is the best bouncer specialist from Asian countries.
Sri Lanka is literally India's bunny. india would annihilate pakistan in Sri Lankan conditons. ball rarely swings.
in odi west indies pitches pitches were bouncy. India would still win there. Modern ones could go either way.
I'd pick him over Indian bowlers in SL, WI. He plays a good holding role in Asia which many of those Indian bowlers cannot do in SENA
Surprises here..Picking Philander in Sri Lanka over Indian best bowlers is one of the most dumbest decision one can make. Faf literally stopped bowling Philander in his previous tour of Sri Lanka because he was pretty insignificant there.
let's agree to disagree here. india has a massive advantage in Australian, south african conditions. in dustbowl india has the edge. In pattas it's even.
pak has the edge in swing conditons.
overall pretty equal. slight edge to india.
I'm not saying he is better in subcontinent, but him in subcontinent is better than many of the indian fast bowlers in SENA
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Kohli
Laxman
Dhoni
This batting can destroy any fast bowler or spinner.
Indian all time would crush pakistan in Australian and south african conditions. Absolutely no chance pakistan beats india there. On pattas india would win there too. turning pitches would be 50 50, more likely a draw.
pakistam would win in England and new zealand.
let's agree to disagree here. india has a massive advantage in Australian, south african conditions. in dustbowl india has the edge. In pattas it's even.
pak has the edge in swing conditons.
overall pretty equal. slight edge to india.
All of India's bowlers are very short, they can't make good use of bouncy conditions, with the exception of Shami. Shoaib, Wasim will make use of the conditions. I don't know how you can compare Shami as a bowler to Imran, Wasim, Waqar.
India's recent strength in Aus is purely down to their batting. Until this most recent series their bowling has not looked threatening
Hell no.
India won’t bash Pakistan all time anywhere bar dust bowls. Even there Pakistan all time can compete with great batsmen against spin like Miandad, younus and zaheer
India all time would be facing Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Shoaib at there peak in SA and Aus conditions. This is 3 ATG 90 mph + fast bowlers with a 95 mph speedster
I'm not saying he is better in subcontinent, but him in subcontinent is better than many of the indian fast bowlers in SENA
That’s one hell of a batting line up, no question about it - but also remember and history will bear witness that few fast bowlers in the game would have bowled as many ‘unplayable’ deliveries that could uproot the middle stump of any batsman then peak form Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib <— look at the dynamics of what they did with the cricket ball when they had their tails up and video evidence is available on YouTube , the batsman on many an occasion did nothing wrong but was just beaten by a delivery that was unreal - yes,including two of the above chaps (Tendulkar and Dravid) in this ATG Indian batting line up as they experienced on consecutive deliveries against Shoaib Akhtar at Calcutta in 99. And Shoaib himself will acknowledge he could not match the magic that Immy, Wasim and Waqar could do.
Not the fault of the batsmen but remember it takes 6 unplayable deliveries from these bowlers at their peaks and the batsmen above only have one life each, which can be over in a single ball. That’s cricket for you.
Even India’s best ever bowlers are pretty average if you compare them to Imran, Wasim and Waqar
A very important aspect people tend to ignore (especially Indian fans),
All Cricket experts would include the following names in an all time India XI: Tendulkar, Dravid, Dhoni, <B>Laxman</B>, Sehwag, Harbajhan, Kumble. Undeniably these would be 6 out of 11 names in the side. However you must bare in mind that Pakistan has beaten India a few times with all of these big names in the side, and this was without its ATG top 4 bowlers. Pakistan has defeated sides with all of those legendary batsmen with bowling attacks consisting of Shoaib Akhtar, Mohammad Asif, Rana Naved, Mohammad Sami, Shabbir Ahmed, Danish Kaneria.
None of these names would make the Pakistan ATG side, unless someone wants to play the 4th pacer and pick Shoaib Akhtar or Mohammad Asif.
Pakistan has also piled on runs against India with Kumble and Harbajhan bowling very long spells in the sub continent. Younis Khan and Mohammad Yousuf’s marathon innings on a number of occasion against this pair are not forgotten. Inzimam was also a very good player of spin without a doubt.
Indian bowlers have a long way to go to match standards set by IK, Wasim and Waqar.
To answer this thread, I think it will come down to Indian inferior bowlers bowling to Pakistani inferior batsmen. It's hard to predict for me. I think at this moment it's a slight edge to Pakistan, but it's shifting Indian way by passing decades.
Kohli in place of Laxman.
And I think in 2000s decade, India have better test record than Pakistan. They won 2 test series compared to Pak's 1 and they had batsmen like Inzy, Yousuf, Younis and Akhtar.
<B>I said 7/11 names include Laxman
Kohli
Bumrah
Gavaskar
Zaheer Khan
Are the remaining 4</B>. Yes India won slightly more Tests but the top 6/7 batsmen in their ranks where not impossible to get out with the bowling attack Pakistan had
When you add peak Imran, Peak Wasim, Waqar and Qadir into the occasion, it becomes a much, much more difficult proposition to deal with
Pakistan and it is not even a question, to be honest...
We have had classy bowlers and steady batsmen.
Pakistani will say Pakistani.
indian will say india.
in odi india is ahead.
in t20 india is ahead.
in tests it's close but india still ahead now with the likes of shami bumrah and one of the other oldie legends.
Pakistani will say Pakistani.
indian will say india.
in odi india is ahead.
in t20 india is ahead.
in tests it's close but india still ahead now with the likes of shami bumrah and one of the other oldie legends.
Not sure i agree with any of this. I'm talking purely in the context of the thread here.
Pakistan don't have the batting history that India have, but a few very high quality batsmen have come through. When you pull all of them from their different eras and place them within the 11 then suddenly you have a very strong top 6. I'd evaluate that they are slightly outmatched by India's superior top 6.
Bowling isn't even a question and would be like comparing Ferrari's and tricycles.
I'm unsure how you conclude India is ahead to be honest. The batting isn't going to have a big enough edge enough of the time to make up for the canyon sized chasm in bowling ability.
in odi and t20 india is well ahead. I think it's pretty obvious.
In big tournaments many of Pakistan's top bowlers failed often.
in tests it's close. With the addition of srinath bumrah and shami india would be able to compete with pakistam comfortably.
Remember india had weak bowling only because there was at best 1 good bowler at a time. Poor first change bolwing options increased their averages. Now with all of the top players in the same team, india close the gap on pakistan and would be able to beat them even in tests due to superior batting lineup and marginally weaker bowling lineup.
On one team you have 5 of the most talked about bowlers in the world. Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Imran Khan and Saqlain Mushtaq.
On the other side to face them you have Zaheer Khan and Javagal Srinath.
If you think this consists of a 'marginally weaker bowling line up' then this is pretty laughable. But the more i think about it i feel you are just trying to troll.