[PICTURES] For those who hail Jasprit Bumrah, must acknowledge the greatness of the Real Head of the Table (Imran Khan)

ODIs are way different than tests.

Bilateral ODIs (and T20Is) in current days often have weakened teams due to them being more of a test ground due to overabundance of ICC tournaments as well as leagues.

Tests people play their first XI.

Naseem, Shaheen, Rauf (as well as Babar etc in batting) have overinflated stats due to bilateral bullying.

It is a consistent pattern of them failing in ICC/ACC tournaments where teams play first line ups and then doing well agaisnt weakened teams.
 
Comparing Bumrah's and Imran's average against ENA is just cope.

Imran played against **** tier Aus and England teams. 80s Aus team and 80s-90s Eng team are the weakest versions of those teams in the last 100 years. Aus only recovered in the late 80s with Waugh bros, Taylor and then McWarne in the early 90s. Eng became better under Fletcher in the early 2000s and then KP, Anderson, Bell, Cook, Broad etc made their debuts in the mid 2000s and made them stronger.

Bumrah plays against very strong Eng/Aus teams. NZ teams of the 80s and post mid 2010s are similar strong teams.

Imran averages 22 against WI. Bumrah 9.

See, two can play at that game.
 
Lol... Why shouldn't I because it will expose you. OK leaving it as per your request. By the way over 40 bowlers have better career avg than Bumrah and that too below 20....i am sure you have looked or checked the same stats before... That is why the plea don't apply it uniformly but by your so called "common sense"


And unlike you I didn't run away see below this is just a post above what you posted right now. It is wrong per current criteria but misleading at occasions too. Even you yourself have shed tears for IK first match avg being not recorded properly due to same method. What an irony
None of those 40 have more wickets than Bumrah.

And those 40 are joke bowlers with 1-2 wickets like Wasim Jaffer with bowling average of 9 with 2 wickets, Alistair Cook with average of 9 with 1 wicket etc. Are they better than Imran then lol?

100 wicket plus - only 6 . The last of whom played in 1914, which is 111 years ago when Pakistan didn't even exist as a country.

200 wicket plus - ZERO

Cope is reaching bottom tier if you have to pick these up.
 
Bowling Avg is Number of runs given away divided by number of wickets. Thats how its calculated world wide.

That's the standard practice

Your methodology and your reservations doesn't change the standard practice.

You have comfortably hidden the fact that Imran played 1 test versus SL in 1982. Took 14 wickets @ 8.28His career best figures of 8 for 58 came in the first innings of this test.

Btw Bumrah avgd 12.81 vs BD. Thats nearly 13 not 10

Hiding facts doesn't work.

So your this Bumrah played against BD excuse is of no use.

Bumrah takes 4.5 wickets in a match

Imran takes 4.1 wickets in a match


Viv Richards Sachin Tendulkar and Ricky Ponting have no test triple 100s. So?

Viv only has 3 double hundreds. So?
Interesting how did you calculated it???

Also name one ATG candidate that doesn't have a 10fer away let alone home plus away.

Comparing a 10fer with a 300 is not a right comparison @cricketjoshila . But I agree with you that if a batter doesn't have a 300 in his career but multiple 200s then it makes the 300 runs innings argument futile.
 
None of those 40 have more wickets than Bumrah.

And those 40 are joke bowlers with 1-2 wickets like Wasim Jaffer with bowling average of 9 with 2 wickets, Alistair Cook with average of 9 with 1 wicket etc. Are they better than Imran then lol?

100 wicket plus - only 6 . The last of whom played in 1914, which is 111 years ago when Pakistan didn't even exist as a country.

200 wicket plus - ZERO

Cope is reaching bottom tier if you have to pick these up.
And none of the ATG like Marshall etc have less than 350 wickets
 
Lol... Why shouldn't I because it will expose you. OK leaving it as per your request. By the way over 40 bowlers have better career avg than Bumrah and that too below 20....i am sure you have looked or checked the same stats before... That is why the plea don't apply it uniformly but by your so called "common sense"

LOL Go ahead Please feel free to claim that Kashif Ali is better than Bumrah because he has a significantly better strike rate and his avg is *JUST* 0.1 below Bumrah. But since his strike rate is so far superior ( only 30 vs 42 for JJ ) then therefore KA > JJ . Is this how you are interpreting my posts on this thread ?

Here you go here is the unfiltered stat sorted by bowling avg and you can see Kashif is right next to Bumrah YAY!! :​




And unlike you I didn't run away

Where and what did I run away from in this thread ?


see below this is just a post above what you posted right now. It is wrong per current criteria but misleading at occasions too.


What is wrong and what is misleading. Your method or the ICC method ? Make clear simple posts. Dont make these ambiguous vague posts that can be twisted around as you go along.

So lets sort this out:

1. Are you saying that Bowling Avgs should NOT be calculated like how its done on Cricinfo or any other popular cricketing site? YES /NO

2. If YES to above then YOUR method in Post# 178 is the correct way to do it ?


Even you yourself have shed tears for IK first match avg being not recorded properly due to same method. What an irony

I have absolutely not shed any tears at all. This is entirely the result of your poor understanding of Cricket and how stats are caluclated and interpreted. Let me explain:

A bowler gets a Bowling average IF and ONLY if he takes atleast one wkt in his entire career. And the moment he does that he can never be a bowler without avg for the rest of his life!

Imran took 2 test matches to get his first wkt. So what Cricinfo has listed in that link is *THE* Absolute Correct, accurate and the right interpretation and statistical representation of the fact that Imran went wicketless in his first testmatch ( Therefore no avg for his 1st Test match which is noted by a dash "-" under the avg column). There is absolutely nothing wrong with how it is recorded. Believe me !!. Now what is the problem here according to you ?. Spell it out in simple un-ambigous words so that we can understand your point.


here is that link again ( Imran's Cumulative Bowling stats):

 
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Imran took 2 test matches to get his first wkt. So what Cricinfo has listed in that link is *THE* Absolute Correct, accurate and the right interpretation and statistical representation of the fact that Imran went wicketless in his first testmatch ( Therefore no avg for his 1st Test match which is noted by a dash "-" under the avg column). There is absolutely nothing wrong with how it is recorded. Believe me !!. Now what is the problem here according to you ?. Spell it out in simple un-ambigous words so that we can understand your point.


here is that link again ( Imran's Cumulative Bowling stats):

First of all

Screenshot_20250213-191407.jpg
However I did give you other parameters to do like-for-like comparison such as these:

1. How many matches did it take for both players to bring their bowling avg below 30,25,20
2. Ditto for Strike rates to dip below 50,45
3. Whether they were dropped.

What do you have to say for that ?
Secondly you give the above parameter and then literally dumped and rubbished your own criteria in the same post 😂😂😂. Just because I instantly proved you wrong by providing phenomenal career transformation stats of IK in post 230.
Well the point is Bumrah never was soo ordinary to avg 30 after his first 30 tests. Thats very ordinary and thats a huge negative for Imran.
But even in above instance you conveniently ignored Bumrah's 45.44 overall and 31.66 avg in NZ.....I dare you even comment on that also I and @mominsaigol bro have brought this multiple times before.
Screenshot_20250213-192508.jpg
 
First of all

View attachment 150730

Secondly you give the above parameter and then literally dumped and rubbished your own criteria in the same post 😂😂😂. Just because I instantly proved you wrong by providing phenomenal career transformation stats of IK in post 230.

But even in above instance you conveniently ignored Bumrah's 45.44 overall and 31.66 avg in NZ.....I dare you even comment on that also I and @mominsaigol bro have brought this multiple times before.
View attachment 150731
I'm completly fine with putting Bumrah as no 2 just below Mcgrath, however he needs to fix that avg vs NZ and he needs to start taking a few more 10 fers.

I watched BGT in its entirety and the biggest problem with bumrah is longetivity and stamina.

This guy just can't bowl long spells and frankly he's pretty ordinary with the old ball compared to wasim.

He's arguably better then wasim with the new ball, however his biggest issue is that sides can easily exploit him by waiting him out.

Aus won BGT because After the initial 8 to 9 overs bowled by Bumrah, Dude would vanish for an entire session. If he bowled more then 11 overs straight, then aus would repeatedly bash him cause he tuckers out, which is a far cry from Imran and wasim who could go up to 20 to 25 overs straight if needed.

It's why Steve smith managed to score centuries and Travis went carnage mode. It's cause travis came when bumrah was tuckered out and Smith just played the waiting game.

It's a huge issue and idkw any Indian poster isn't acknowledging this and automatically rushing to conclusions. Not every fan is out to get India. Many are neutrals.
 
And @uppercut the best part from the discussion so far has been. 👇 😂😂. Yep Bumrah who has played 89 matches already does not play ODI much but Mohammad Amir has like some 61-62 ODIs matches in his entire tally. Just loved that after ten days you came with a hilarious criteria as mentioned in post 250 and you dumbed it in the same post yourself.

:ROFLMAO: Nobody here claims that Bumrah is a ODI great. He does not even play much ODI cricket (and has now sat out of even the CT ).
 
First of all



Secondly you give the above parameter and then literally dumped and rubbished your own criteria in the same post 😂😂😂. Just because I instantly proved you wrong by providing phenomenal career transformation stats of IK in post 230.


Nope you did not because you simply do not understand cricket at all !


But even in above instance you conveniently ignored Bumrah's 45.44 overall and 31.66 avg in NZ.....I dare you even comment on that also I and @mominsaigol bro have brought this multiple times before.


So Bumrah has a bad avg vs NZ therefore Imran > Bumrah .... this is your reasoning to rate Imran above Bumrah? Simple YES/NO
 
And @uppercut the best part from the discussion so far has been. 👇 😂😂. Yep Bumrah who has played 89 matches already does not play ODI much but Mohammad Amir has like some 61-62 ODIs matches in his entire tally. Just loved that after ten days you came with a hilarious criteria as mentioned in post 250 and you dumbed it in the same post yourself.

Ehh ? Please make some sense. You were the one that brought ODIs into a Test match discussion therefore there was no talk about ODI or T20 greatness untill you bought it up.
 
Nope you did not because you simply do not understand cricket at all !





So Bumrah has a bad avg vs NZ therefore Imran > Bumrah .... this is your reasoning to rate Imran above Bumrah? Simple YES/NO
Bumrah won't be GOAT unless

* He better his avg against NZ
* Claim 10fer against teams home and away
* Go past atleast 350 wickets mark with current or around 22-23 avg
Simple as that... although there were some other points too
 
Ehh ? Please make some sense. You were the one that brought ODIs into a Test match discussion therefore there was no talk about ODI or T20 greatness untill you bought it up.
Ok a YES/NO for you now.

Is Bumrah an ODI great or not as you claimed yesterday???
 
Ok a YES/NO for you now.

Is Bumrah an ODI great or not as you claimed yesterday???

I already told you he is not a ODI great because of very low number of matches. But its not like he is crap in ODIs his record is pretty darn good ... just does not have the number of matches.
 
I already told you he is not a ODI great because of very low number of matches. But its not like he is crap in ODIs his record is pretty darn good ... just does not have the number of matches.
I appreciate your sincerity after a great while
 
I appreciate your sincerity after a great while

What do you mean after a while ? .... i have not changed my views.

But After nearly a week you have still not acknowledged that you were dead wrong about how bowling avgs are calculated.
 
What do you mean after a while ? .... i have not changed my views.

But After nearly a week you have still not acknowledged that you were dead wrong about how bowling avgs are calculated.
What else do you expect me to say, lol I won't answer this question umpteen time now...
 
Nope you did not because you simply do not understand cricket at all !





So Bumrah has a bad avg vs NZ therefore Imran > Bumrah .... this is your reasoning to rate Imran above Bumrah? Simple YES/NO
So Bumrah has a bad avg vs NZ therefore Imran > Bumrah .... this is your reasoning to rate Imran above Bumrah? Simple YES/NO

That's not his only reasoning but its a major one.

Avg 45 against a certain team and being responsible for causing your team to lose a 3-0 test at home and get kicked out of wtc despite the fact that India has been proving for over a decade that their next to invincible at home is an embrassment and red flag on his portfolio.

Name one bowling great that has a WHOPPING 40+ AVG AGAINST a certain opposition.

Max they'll have 30 to 35 or maybe even 38, 45 is clown worthy.

Secondly the lack of 10 fers proves he's absolutely terrible when it comes to bowling long spells.

Fans who watched this year's BGT should know that The biggest reason India lost was due to Travis Head and steve smith + Bowling trio of Cummins, Hazlewood and starc + Boland.

While bumrah is > Them as a bowler, he's absolutely dreadful once the ball gets old and he got spanked by Travis and steve smith because he was tok tired to bowl.

After 9 overs this guy tuckers out, His speed drops, and India has to take him off. This allowed Travis and Smith to cash in on the trundler brigade like siraj.

It's a starc contrast to Imran who can bowl 25 overs without a sweat. Heck a 35 hear old starc can bowl 15 to 18 overs in a row without tiring, losing speed etc etc.

People missed the reason as to why India lost BGT. They think it's some otherworldly factor or will blame umpires cheating, But it was simply due to stamina.

Aussie bowlers can bowl longer spells and get rid of Indian batters and the likes of steve smith can just play the waiting game and painfully torment India by scoring 100 of 191.

Smith was the perfect example on how to neutralise bumrah since he mentally defeated him and every other Indian bowler.

But mentally defeating bowlers like wasim and imran is more difficult due to their 25 over onslaughts.
 
So Bumrah has a bad avg vs NZ therefore Imran > Bumrah .... this is your reasoning to rate Imran above Bumrah? Simple YES/NO

That's not his only reasoning but its a major one.

Avg 45 against a certain team and being responsible for causing your team to lose a 3-0 test at home and get kicked out of wtc despite the fact that India has been proving for over a decade that their next to invincible at home is an embrassment and red flag on his portfolio.

Name one bowling great that has a WHOPPING 40+ AVG AGAINST a certain opposition.

Max they'll have 30 to 35 or maybe even 38, 45 is clown worthy.

Secondly the lack of 10 fers proves he's absolutely terrible when it comes to bowling long spells.

Fans who watched this year's BGT should know that The biggest reason India lost was due to Travis Head and steve smith + Bowling trio of Cummins, Hazlewood and starc + Boland.

While bumrah is > Them as a bowler, he's absolutely dreadful once the ball gets old and he got spanked by Travis and steve smith because he was tok tired to bowl.

After 9 overs this guy tuckers out, His speed drops, and India has to take him off. This allowed Travis and Smith to cash in on the trundler brigade like siraj.

It's a starc contrast to Imran who can bowl 25 overs without a sweat. Heck a 35 hear old starc can bowl 15 to 18 overs in a row without tiring, losing speed etc etc.

People missed the reason as to why India lost BGT. They think it's some otherworldly factor or will blame umpires cheating, But it was simply due to stamina.

Aussie bowlers can bowl longer spells and get rid of Indian batters and the likes of steve smith can just play the waiting game and painfully torment India by scoring 100 of 191.

Smith was the perfect example on how to neutralise bumrah since he mentally defeated him and every other Indian bowler.

But mentally defeating bowlers like wasim and imran is more difficult due to their 25 over onslaughts.
What an analysis, Professor 🫡
 
Bumrah won't be GOAT unless

* He better his avg against NZ
* Claim 10fer against teams home and away
* Go past atleast 350 wickets mark with current or around 22-23 avg
Simple as that... although there were some other points too

Bumrah is considered the greatest bowler ever to play Test cricket simply because it is extremely difficult to avg well under 20 and take 200+ wkts. Especially as he has to play on unhelpful tracks in India. If you think this is easy to achieve go find me players who have done this in the past .... invariably you will have to start cherry picking stats ( like you did for Imran by removing his first match lol ) but there is nobody who has maintained a below 20 avg after 45 tests and he has done that by primarily playing.against the big teams eng,aus,sa. He has played 34 out of 45 tests against these top teams. Imagine if he plays bangla,zim,wi as often as some other players do.


BTW Shaun Pollock managed the under 20 avg for just One single test match in his 50th test but he plays a lot on extremely seamer friendly pitches.

Nobody gives a heck about avg against one particular team or 10fers.
 
Bumrah is considered the greatest bowler ever to play Test cricket simply because it is extremely difficult to avg well under 20 and take 200+ wkts. Especially as he has to play on unhelpful tracks in India. If you think this is easy to achieve go find me players who have done this in the past .... invariably you will have to start cherry picking stats ( like you did for Imran by removing his first match lol ) but there is nobody who has maintained a below 20 avg after 45 tests and he has done that by primarily playing.against the big teams eng,aus,sa. He has played 34 out of 45 tests against these top teams. Imagine if he plays bangla,zim,wi as often as some other players do.


BTW Shaun Pollock managed the under 20 avg for just One single test match in his 50th test but he plays a lot on extremely seamer friendly pitches.

Nobody gives a heck about avg against one particular team or 10fers.
Ready to get embarrassed 😂😂😂
Screenshot_20250213-223918.jpg
 
Name one bowling great that has a WHOPPING 40+ AVG AGAINST a certain opposition.

Just One ? Lookup Shane Warne vs India and Warne In WI ... he was dropped by Steve Waugh after a poor test match in WI.

Next lookup Murali in Aus and Ind ... lol

Sorry you just do not understand cricket if this is how you evaluate players :facepalm:
 
Just One ? Lookup Shane Warne vs India and Warne In WI ... he was dropped by Steve Waugh after a poor test match in WI.

Next lookup Murali in Aus and Ind ... lol

Sorry you just do not understand cricket if this is how you evaluate players :facepalm:
I'm talking about pacers not spinners.

Sorry you just do not understand cricket if this is how you evaluate players :facepalm:

^^ Anyone can talk tough, I can say the same thing aka You do not understand Math if you think 414 apples per year equates to eating 25 Apples per day.

Please stick to the argument at hand and address it rather then attacking the poster.
 
I'm talking about pacers not spinners.

Sorry you just do not understand cricket if this is how you evaluate players :facepalm:

Spin bowlers have the same criteria ... but here you go here is a list of players who avg over 40 in Aus and it includes Jimmy, Waqar,Walsh etc ... now what ?


^^ Anyone can talk tough, I can say the same thing aka You do not understand Math if you think 414 apples per year equates to eating 25 Apples per day.

Please stick to the argument at hand and address it rather then attacking the poster.

The problem there is about your English comprehension... I constructed that apples example on purpose to teach your buddy the concept of how averages are calculated in mathematics. He still doesn't get it though lol
 
Spin bowlers have the same criteria ... but here you go here is a list of players who avg over 40 in Aus and it includes Jimmy, Waqar,Walsh etc ... now what ?




The problem there is about your English comprehension... I constructed that apples example on purpose to teach your buddy the concept of how averages are calculated in mathematics. He still doesn't get it though lol
You are exposing yourself big time, no cover up will work now...
 
Spin bowlers have the same criteria ... but here you go here is a list of players who avg over 40 in Aus and it includes Jimmy, Waqar,Walsh etc ... now what ?




The problem there is about your English comprehension... I constructed that apples example on purpose to teach your buddy the concept of how averages are calculated in mathematics. He still doesn't get it though lol
Umm bro, you gave me an odi stat list? I thought we were talking about tests?
 
But Waqar does avg above 40 in Aus lol

Here you go > 40 in Aus tests

But i never said anything about waqar? Waqar isn't a great bowler and was hard carried by wasim in his prime and he stat padded a bit.

Theirs a thread on PP called why waqar was poor against top sides.

I already agree Bumrah > Waqar? What relevance does waqar have when in tests its

Imran > Wasim > Bumrah > Waqar

And in Odi it's Wasim > Imran > Waqar.

Not gonna include Bumrah in odi due to the 2 new ball era being different from the one ball era and more unfair towards bowlers.

But we were talking about tests not odi. You're mixing up formats.

Also even though Bumrah > Waqar, the waqar 40 comparison isn't fair.

For starters waqar's avg is still below Bumrah in aus to NZ. Secondly that was ATG classic Australia in their own den that schooled everybody.

This is freaking latham, Will Young and racjin ravindra and Williamson 🤣🤣
 
In just seven years, Bumrah has eclipsed the entire fast bowling legacy of Pakistan and their fans are now coping really hard bringing in all kinds of lame arguments to prop up their childhood heroes. Funny to see :alien:
 
But i never said anything about waqar? Waqar isn't a great bowler and was hard carried by wasim in his prime and he stat padded a bit.

Theirs a thread on PP called why waqar was poor against top sides.

I already agree Bumrah > Waqar? What relevance does waqar have when in tests its

Imran > Wasim > Bumrah > Waqar

And in Odi it's Wasim > Imran > Waqar.

Not gonna include Bumrah in odi due to the 2 new ball era being different from the one ball era and more unfair towards bowlers.

But we were talking about tests not odi. You're mixing up formats.

Also even though Bumrah > Waqar, the waqar 40 comparison isn't fair.

For starters waqar's avg is still below Bumrah in aus to NZ. Secondly that was ATG classic Australia in their own den that schooled everybody.

This is freaking latham, Will Young and racjin ravindra and Williamson 🤣🤣


Well you didnt specify all that extra criteria in your Post# 263. Infact you didnt even say FAST bowling great. All you said was Bowling greats with avg > 40 in a particular country.

This is what you said in that post ... and I gave you just one example of stats IN Aus. Do you want more ? :ROFLMAO:

Name one bowling great that has a WHOPPING 40+ AVG AGAINST a certain opposition.
 
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In just seven years, Bumrah has eclipsed the entire fast bowling legacy of Pakistan and their fans are now coping really hard bringing in all kinds of lame arguments to prop up their childhood heroes. Funny to see :alien:
He hasn't and their not excuses. Their genuine arguments but you guys just don't know how to argue.

Just unplug the Indian cord from your brains for once. Their old threads on PP where you guys posted the same rubbish about Zaheer Khan lol
 
But i never said anything about waqar? Waqar isn't a great bowler and was hard carried by wasim in his prime and he stat padded a bit.

Theirs a thread on PP called why waqar was poor against top sides.

I already agree Bumrah > Waqar? What relevance does waqar have when in tests its

Imran > Wasim > Bumrah > Waqar

And in Odi it's Wasim > Imran > Waqar.

Not gonna include Bumrah in odi due to the 2 new ball era being different from the one ball era and more unfair towards bowlers.

But we were talking about tests not odi. You're mixing up formats.

Also even though Bumrah > Waqar, the waqar 40 comparison isn't fair.

For starters waqar's avg is still below Bumrah in aus to NZ. Secondly that was ATG classic Australia in their own den that schooled everybody.

This is freaking latham, Will Young and racjin ravindra and Williamson 🤣🤣
May be he considers Usman Khawaja, McSweeney, Marsh and Lyon bigger batsmans than Ponting, Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh, Adam Gilchrist, Damien Martins etc lol....literally 1/3 of Bumrah BGT wickets were against the current era greats which had no match with the ma lowly batters like Ponting and Co :virat1
 
Your patient is amazing to be fair, I'd given up long ago.
You are right brother, @uppercut just knows digressing he is yet to provide one ATG candidate who has no 10 fer. And almost every ATG candidate has 10 fer even away from home, let alone (home and away) combine.

Infact the comedy continues and he says world give heck to 10 fer 🤡
 
Away averages against 8 major teams:-

Bumrah - 19
Garner - 19
Ambrose - 21
McGrath- 21
Marshall - 21
Hadlee - 21

A tier below,

Donald - 23
Holding - 23
Steyn - 24
Lillee - 24
Wasim - 24
Rabada - 25
Cummins - 25
Pollock - 25
Walsh - 25
Imran - 25
Waqar - 26




To conclude,

Tier 1 - Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Ambrose, Bumrah

Tier 2 - Garner(due to lack of 5-fee and not being lead bowler), Steyn, Wasim, Donald, Lillee, Holding

Tier 3 - Cummins, Imran, Pollock, Rabada, Waqar, Walsh


So, it seems Bumrah is a tier 1 bowler while Imran is a tier 3 bowler based on tier. :kp :inti
 
Away averages against 8 major teams:-

Bumrah - 19
Garner - 19
Ambrose - 21
McGrath- 21
Marshall - 21
Hadlee - 21

A tier below,

Donald - 23
Holding - 23
Steyn - 24
Lillee - 24
Wasim - 24
Rabada - 25
Cummins - 25
Pollock - 25
Walsh - 25
Imran - 25
Waqar - 26




To conclude,

Tier 1 - Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Ambrose, Bumrah

Tier 2 - Garner(due to lack of 5-fee and not being lead bowler), Steyn, Wasim, Donald, Lillee, Holding

Tier 3 - Cummins, Imran, Pollock, Rabada, Waqar, Walsh


So, it seems Bumrah is a tier 1 bowler while Imran is a tier 3 bowler based on tier. :kp :inti
Wow @Ab Fan what a turn around in less than a month.... didn't know this thread would make you guys this defensive. Clutching to cherry picking stats instead of holistic analysis
Wasim Akram is better than Jasprit Bumrah.

Where is the durability for Bumrah?

Wasim has 900+ international wickets, Bumrah has 450.

Fast bowlers who were consistently great all round and also durable:-

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Ambrose
IK
Wasim
Donald
Steyn

Bumrah and Cummins have their careers relatively hindered due to being injury prone. Same for Waqar who also doesn’t have great all round record vs top teams. Pollock, Anderson and Rabada don’t have great all round record vs top teams but they were extremely durable. Steyn had some injuries in latter part of his career but played enough games and picked enough wickets. Walsh was extremely durable too and so was Kapil Dev.
Do you still stands by your words @Ab Fan ??
 
You are right brother, @uppercut just knows digressing he is yet to provide one ATG candidate who has no 10 fer. And almost every ATG candidate has 10 fer even away from home, let alone (home and away) combine.

Infact the comedy continues and he says world give heck to 10 fer 🤡


That is correct because unlike batting records where batsmen can score as many runs as possible in an innings ( and most captains will even wait for the player to cross milestones before declaring ) .... bowlers however have a max limit of wkts that they can take in an inngs ( meaning they have to share them with other 3-4 bowlers in the team ).... which is why nobody who TRULY understands Test Cricket will use 10fer as one of the benchmarks to rate bowlers.

As I said you do not understand even the basics of Test Cricket.
 
That is correct because unlike batting records where batsmen can score as many runs as possible in an innings ( and most captains will even wait for the player to cross milestones before declaring ) .... bowlers however have a max limit of wkts that they can take in an inngs ( meaning they have to share them with other 3-4 bowlers in the team ).... which is why nobody who TRULY understands Test Cricket will use 10fer as one of the benchmarks to rate bowlers.

As I said you do not understand even the basics of Test Cricket.
Yes and all those who took 10fer were really mean and didn't care about their team mates....Logic of the century by a real cricket guru...Thank God then that I am not a cricket expert like you.
 
Well you didnt specify all that extra criteria in your Post# 263. Infact you didnt even say FAST bowling great. All you said was Bowling greats with avg > 40 in a particular country.

This is what you said in that post ... and I gave you just one example of stats IN Aus. Do you want more ? :ROFLMAO:
We are talking about bumrah's comparison. I don't need to directly say things for you to understand. You're not a baby so I don't need to treat you like one
 
Away averages against 8 major teams:-

Bumrah - 19
Garner - 19
Ambrose - 21
McGrath- 21
Marshall - 21
Hadlee - 21

A tier below,

Donald - 23
Holding - 23
Steyn - 24
Lillee - 24
Wasim - 24
Rabada - 25
Cummins - 25
Pollock - 25
Walsh - 25
Imran - 25
Waqar - 26




To conclude,

Tier 1 - Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Ambrose, Bumrah

Tier 2 - Garner(due to lack of 5-fee and not being lead bowler), Steyn, Wasim, Donald, Lillee, Holding

Tier 3 - Cummins, Imran, Pollock, Rabada, Waqar, Walsh


So, it seems Bumrah is a tier 1 bowler while Imran is a tier 3 bowler based on tier. :kp :inti
You created your own tier 🤣🤣. Is this another tier were ashwin ranks no 1 in?
 
Indians trying to downplay the greatness of sir Imran Khan.
@Ab Fan has some weird rankings.

He put laxman ahead of YK in tests which is hilarious since laxman doesn't avg 50 in any country besides India and excluding Eden gardens he's bang avg, dude has 17 centuries in 134 test games and a 46 avg, Was a circus clown at the top order until they fixed his place.

He also put virat kohli > YK in tests 🤣🤣.

Then afterwards he claimed Ashwin is = to Shaun Pollock as a cricketer and as a result Ashwin and Imran Khan are in the same tier?

Then he apprantly doesn't consider Pollock as an atg only a borderline atg basically someone who is slightly below an atg but he considers James Anderson a certified atg?
 
@Ab Fan has some weird rankings.

He put laxman ahead of YK in tests which is hilarious since laxman doesn't avg 50 in any country besides India and excluding Eden gardens he's bang avg, dude has 17 centuries in 134 test games and a 46 avg, Was a circus clown at the top order until they fixed his place.

He also put virat kohli > YK in tests 🤣🤣.

Then afterwards he claimed Ashwin is = to Shaun Pollock as a cricketer and as a result Ashwin and Imran Khan are in the same tier?

Then he apprantly doesn't consider Pollock as an atg only a borderline atg basically someone who is slightly below an atg but he considers James Anderson a certified atg?
I know something even more interesting, he doesn't consider Steve Smith a modern ATG at all because he hasn't as many runs in Test as Sachin. As you can see bro, indian friends change goal post everywhere. On one occasion they would cling to the avg while on the other occasion rubbish someone as Steve Smith because he hasn't as many runs as sachin
 
We are talking about bumrah's comparison. I don't need to directly say things for you to understand. You're not a baby so I don't need to treat you like one

But genius, I cant read your mind .... so if you want a meaningful discussion on a very subjective topic ( e.g.: who knew that you don't consider Waqar as a Great bowler lol ) .... so start by being explicit with some basic explanation that makes cricketing sense. And yes Bowlers regardless of whether they are Spinners or Medium Pace or Express are all by and large held to the same standard when it comes to performances in a particular country. Its not like spinners will get a free pass to not perform in a particular country especially if it is in ASIA where they are required to play the primary role of taking wkts. Its the same thing for batsmen too.

BTW here is Ambrose' record ... avg of 38.26 vs India ( And he never played a single test match IN India )


IN B4 you construct another arbitrary filter to exclude Ambrose :ROFLMAO:
 
So according to you a away Avg of 19 belongs in the same tier as away avg of 25 ?

@Ab Fan
What's even the point of engaging in a conversation with me? You don't want to listen or actually engage in a debate since you're not open to a conversation.

You just want to stick to one view and obsessively tell me why you're right and everyone's wrong which is how most Indian posters behave on this forumn. So why do you want my opinions?

Anyway let me explain, Test cricket in this era is easier for the bowlers for 3 main reason. Odi cricket is defo harder for bowlers due to to 2 new ball rule and rubbish PP changes but for tests it's the opposite.

A) Home side pitch citations. Back in the previous era while pitches were curated, they weren't curated to give teams an unfair advantage. In this age Australia is the only side that doesn't deliberately curate pitches to give themselves an advantage.

The tradition started with England who curated against aus in ashes and then other sides like India and pak copied it. Hence at home it's easier for bowlers to inflate their stats.

B) Flat track tests are extremly uncommon now. Only Pakistan were curating flat tracks before aqib. As a result less tests are drawn now. Infact excluding rain affected games i can't recall a single test game that has been drawn recently whereas their were dozens in the past. Targets like lara scoring 400 isn't possible anymore in this era unless Brooks bats in pakistan again.

The poster you're fanboying BTW, @Ab Fan himself used the very same logic to argue Steve smith > Sachin. His own words were smith bats in a bowling friendly test era while Sachin had a few games in flat tracks.

It's also why I don't rate laxman highly as excluding Eden gardens his scores were on flat tracks and I watched all his innings where he scored. He's easily the most overrated Indian batter of all time.

C) Bumrah has it easy when it comes to facing batters. The 3 best batters in this era are smith, root and Williamson whole every one else is bang avg and this includes Mr Flat track Brooks who's a clown on any pitch that has a bit of swing or turn.

Williamson is a circus clown in 4 countries and is the definition of a htb. Root is a solid test batter but he has a garnage conversion rate. Steve smith is the only certfied atg but was avg 33 In tests for a year during his form slump, Once he recovered he scored 4 cemturies in 5 test games, 2 of them were against India and this included Bumrah who had no answer for him.

It's why cricket fans are concerned about the quality fo test cricket and wondering if smith, root and Williamson are the last era of great test batsmen.

Duckett, Brooks, Babar, Rizwan, Gill, Rachin and many others are clowns in tests.

Only jaiswal seems to be good and shows promise for the next generation.
 
But genius, I cant read your mind .... so if you want a meaningful discussion on a very subjective topic ( e.g.: who knew that you don't consider Waqar as a Great bowler lol ) .... so start by being explicit with some basic explanation that makes cricketing sense. And yes Bowlers regardless of whether they are Spinners or Medium Pace or Express are all by and large held to the same standard when it comes to performances in a particular country. Its not like spinners will get a free pass to not perform in a particular country especially if it is in ASIA where they are required to play the primary role of taking wkts. Its the same thing for batsmen too.

BTW here is Ambrose' record ... avg of 38.26 vs India ( And he never played a single test match IN India )


IN B4 you construct another arbitrary filter to exclude Ambrose :ROFLMAO:
Read my above comment before this. I stated 38 was the highest bench mark. So don't claim it's in before
 
I know something even more interesting, he doesn't consider Steve Smith a modern ATG at all because he hasn't as many runs in Test as Sachin. As you can see bro, indian friends change goal post everywhere. On one occasion they would cling to the avg while on the other occasion rubbish someone as Steve Smith because he hasn't as many runs as sachin
Steve smith is significantly superior to Sachin in test cricket.

Having more runs and centuries is dependent on no of matches and is a garbage metric if one is using that argument because by this logic Anderson > Mcgrath.

Smith has the 2nd best conversion rate of all time only behind bradman. His avg and his record in every country is massively greater then sachin's all while he played in a harder pitch era one where the likes of India curate rank turners to offset sena teams.

His peak years had him avg 74 to 86 year by year something Sachin never once reached.

In his prime he top scored year by year 4 years in a row while Sachin only achieved that metric twice in 24 years. Their was always someone scoring more runs then him even though Sachin played more year by year test games or at the very least was always in the top 3 no of matches played.

Steve smith is easily > Sachin in test cricket by literally every metric except run tally and century tally but that's due to no of games.

Smith has way centuries and runs then Sachin did at the same no of games and same stage of his career.
 
Away averages against 8 major teams:-

Bumrah - 19
Garner - 19
Ambrose - 21
McGrath- 21
Marshall - 21
Hadlee - 21

That is stunning, the cricket world must enjoy him while we still can.

I called him the GOAT soon after the WT20 in 2024 and he's since only furthered his credentials by blowing away the aussies in the Border Gavasker trophy.
 
Read my above comment before this. I stated 38 was the highest bench mark. So don't claim it's in before

Just to give you a taste of your own "reasoning" 38.26 > 38 ( And don't forget he never played in India at all )... now what ?

And you better provide a proper Cricketing logic as to how a bowling avg of 38 is acceptable lol
 
That is stunning, the cricket world must enjoy him while we still can.

I called him the GOAT soon after the WT20 in 2024 and he's since only furthered his credentials by blowing away the aussies in the Border Gavasker trophy.
he's since only furthered his credentials by blowing away the aussies in the Border Gavasker trophy.

India lost 3-1 and technically 4-1 as they got hammered in that rained off game? Wdym blowed the aussies away? Travis head ans Steve smith went carnage mode on all of India including bumrah in 4 out of 5 tests?
 
he's since only furthered his credentials by blowing away the aussies in the Border Gavasker trophy.

India lost 3-1 and technically 4-1 as they got hammered in that rained off game? Wdym blowed the aussies away? Travis head ans Steve smith went carnage mode on all of India including bumrah in 4 out of 5 tests?

Scoreline was 3-1 because the top & middle order kept failing, especially the two mainstays Kohli and Rohit.

Bowlers did their job, for the most part. Bumrah was 32 wkts at 13.
 
Scoreline was 3-1 because the top & middle order kept failing, especially the two mainstays Kohli and Rohit.

Bowlers did their job, for the most part. Bumrah was 32 wkts at 13.
You claimed he blew aussies out of the water implying he murked them?

How did he murk em when Australia won 3-1 (techincally 4-1) and even scored 450+ twice against India in 2 test games?
 
Scoreline was 3-1 because the top & middle order kept failing, especially the two mainstays Kohli and Rohit.

Bowlers did their job, for the most part. Bumrah was 32 wkts at 13.
Was just curious do you guys appreciate Siraj's contributions who literally bowled with both new and old ball unlike Bumrah who would hide behind Rohit when he would realize that he couldn't take the wickets anymore.

Everybody criticizes Rohit but doesn't acknowledge that Bumrah was actually bowling on his own terms in BGT not solely on Rohit's request
 
Was just curious do you guys appreciate Siraj's contributions who literally bowled with both new and old ball unlike Bumrah who would hide behind Rohit when he would realize that he couldn't take the wickets anymore.

Everybody criticizes Rohit but doesn't acknowledge that Bumrah was actually bowling on his own terms in BGT not solely on Rohit's requestsm
It's cause he's rubbish with the old ball. Guy can't reverse that's why. Indians don't want to acknowledge this.
 
You claimed he blew aussies out of the water implying he murked them?

How did he murk em when Australia won 3-1 (techincally 4-1) and even scored 450+ twice against India in 2 test games?

Bumrah did his part in the BGT; the other bowlers and the batsmen failed to show up hence why India lost.

32 wickets at 13.

Is this so hard to understand ? Or are you just arguing for the sake of it ?
 
Bumrah did his part in the BGT; the other bowlers and the batsmen failed to show up hence why India lost.

32 wickets at 13.

Is this so hard to understand ? Or are you just arguing for the sake of it ?
No, you claimed he blew Australia out of the water yet while he was spearheading the attack you had

A) 2 Travis head centuries

B) 2 Steve smith centuries

C) A new konstas 60

D) Alex Carey, Beau Webster and Labu half centuries and specials.

^^ so why claim he blew them out of the water? I'm stopping you from spreading misinformation that's all. And you changing the story to illustrate statistical metrics is proof of that.

Be very careful with words next time.
 
Having more runs and centuries is dependent on no of matches and is a garbage metric if one is using that argument because by this logic Anderson > Mcgrath.

Does it occur to you that you don't agree with that exact same method when it comes to comparing bowlers like in this case Imran vs Bumrah ? Your friend even invented a artificial career wkt tally of 350 wkts which you dont seem to have a problem with.
 
Does it occur to you that you don't agree with that exact same method when it comes to comparing bowlers like in this case Imran vs Bumrah ? Your friend even invented a artificial career wkt tally of 350 wkts which you dont seem to have a problem with.
Lol...ok match Jimmy Anderson 704 happy now....even infact match Bumrah's all format wickets to his tally.lol
 
what is "technically 4-1" lol.

draw is draw.

plus bumrah has already won 2 series in aus, both including travis head and one including smith.

that's 2 series more than what pak has ever won in aus.
 
Wow @Ab Fan what a turn around in less than a month.... didn't know this thread would make you guys this defensive. Clutching to cherry picking stats instead of holistic analysis

Do you still stands by your words @Ab Fan ??

This thread is about Imran vs Bumrah. Not Wasim vs Bumrah.

I don’t rate Imran as high as Wasim purely on bowling because anyone can see that between 1980-88, Imran was heavily benefited with home wickets achieved by ball tampering. Those were absolute flat wickets and him averaging 14 over there with bowl during that period suggests the same. As a test cricketer, Imran is certainly in a top league but here we are comparing him with Bumrah as a test bowler.

What Bumrah lacks at the moment is durability. Otherwise, in terms of quality, Bumrah is operating in Tier 1, Wasim in Tier 2 and Imran a Tier below as a test bowler. If Bumrah gets to 300+ wickets maintaining an avg of 20-21, he will go past Wasim. :inti
 
That is stunning, the cricket world must enjoy him while we still can.

I called him the GOAT soon after the WT20 in 2024 and he's since only furthered his credentials by blowing away the aussies in the Border Gavasker trophy.

Quality wise, he is operating simply in a different league to any Pakistani fast bowler that has ever played the game.

Imran and Waqar mastered reverse swing and relied mostly on that due to which you will find a huge disparity in their home-away record. Wasim also benefitted with that but atleast he would make the new bowl talk and rely on conventional swing too. There hasn’t been a single great fast bowler to arrive for Pakistan since then, suggesting how much their bowling legacy has been dented post the decommission of ball tampering.

Bumrah is the one true great fast bowler that Asia has produced and your legacy as fast bowler is decided based on away performances vs top teams and match winning performances away from home. Bumrah is in a different league altogether. Durability is the only question for him so he needs to survive and perform at this level or slightly below for about 15-20 tests more.
 
Does it occur to you that you don't agree with that exact same method when it comes to comparing bowlers like in this case Imran vs Bumrah ? Your friend even invented a artificial career wkt tally of 350 wkts which you dont seem to have a problem with.
Read my first comment, I even told @The Bald Eagle that i disagree with the 350 metric and only focused on the others.

Not my fault you're choosing to skip and pick and choose
 
Read my first comment, I even told @The Bald Eagle that i disagree with the 350 metric and only focused on the others.

Not my fault you're choosing to skip and pick and choose
Just say Bumrah is the greatest of all time and no one will ever come close to him in next century and you are all good....

Bumrah is currently one of the greatest bowler, no doubt here..
 
Just say Bumrah is the greatest of all time and no one will ever come close to him in next century and you are all good....

Bumrah is currently one of the greatest bowler, no doubt here..
He's the greatest all format bowlers of all time.

However he's not the undisputed no 1. Mcgrath is still clearly > him.

As for wasim and imran they both have superior longetivity and I'm not referring to now of games I'm referring to stamina.

Bumrah plays in an era where test batters all suck besides Steven Smith who once he returned to form neutralised Bumrah.

I've seen bumrah bowl, he's > Wasim and imran as a new ball bowler but rubbish once the new ball fades away and hence he gets bashed to no end by Travis and Smith.

And 10fers is a huge metric. Not achieving that is a red flag and so is the whopping 45 avg against NZ despite the batting being the likes of latham, Williamson etc etc
 
I know something even more interesting, he doesn't consider Steve Smith a modern ATG at all because he hasn't as many runs in Test as Sachin. As you can see bro, indian friends change goal post everywhere. On one occasion they would cling to the avg while on the other occasion rubbish someone as Steve Smith because he hasn't as many runs as sachin

Tell me when did I said that. This is what I said about Steve Smith last time. Don’t provide false information.
 
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On topic, we have Bumrah having an away average of 19 when compared to Imran’s average of 25. This is clearly a gulf of difference in away average and here we have folks crying over getting a 10-fer. :facepalm:

Bumrah has 12-13 5-fers in 45 tests. That signifies his ability to run through sides. He doesn’t need to validate it with other statistical achievements. Performing in all conditions and against top opposition and winning games for his team is all what he has to do. He doesn’t have to focus on individual milestones like Imran would do.
 
@The Bald Eagle @uppercut,

During Imran’s era, Marshall and Hadlee were the top two bowlers and their away averages validates this point.

Marshall away avg - 21.5
Hadlee away avg - 21.7
Imran away avg - 25.7

Imran was a top cricketer but not a tier 1 fast bowler, in the league of Marshall and Hadlee.

Now compare the away averages of Cummins and Rabada with Bumrah and you will understand who is tier 1 bowler and who is not. :ab :inti
 
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