[PICTURES] For those who hail Jasprit Bumrah, must acknowledge the greatness of the Real Head of the Table (Imran Khan)

[uppercut]

No but I expect you not to jump towards conclusions

I don't get it .... see post# 306 there are two points there and since you are vehemently arguing IK > JJ and teaming up with your Eagle buddy what other conclusions are possible ?


If you want a serious discussion, start answering questions that are asked honestly

 

[Ab Fan]

I don't get it .... see post# 306 there are two points there and since you are vehemently arguing IK > JJ and teaming up with your Eagle buddy what other conclusions are possible ?


If you want a serious discussion, start answering questions that are asked honestly

All our little brothers do is pinpoint random statistical flaws but no acceptance to logical reasoning given to them. They don’t understand what is a discussion, let alone a serious discussion

Random statistical flaws:-

1. Bumrah doesn’t have a 10-fer.

Argument to counter it - He has 12-13 fi-fers in 45 tests, that shows his ability to run through sides. He has won player of series in a tour to England 2021 and a tour to Australia 2024 by picking most wickets. These are long tours we are talking about and here we have posters pointing baseless random flaws like not having a 10-fer

 

[mominsaigol]

I don't get it .... see post# 306 there are two points there and since you are vehemently arguing IK > JJ and teaming up with your Eagle buddy what other conclusions are possible ?


If you want a serious discussion, start answering questions that are asked honestly

JJ? You mean JB?

 

[uppercut]

JJ? You mean JB?

Yes his initials are JJ

 

[uppercut]

All our little brothers do is pinpoint random statistical flaws but no acceptance to logical reasoning given to them. They don’t understand what is a discussion, let alone a serious discussion

Random statistical flaws:-

1. Bumrah doesn’t have a 10-fer.

Argument to counter it - He has 12-13 fi-fers in 45 tests, that shows his ability to run through sides. He has won player of series in a tour to England 2021 and a tour to Australia 2024 by picking most wickets. These are long tours we are talking about and here we have posters pointing baseless random flaws like not having a 10-fer

Yeah it gets tiresome to discuss serious cricket with extremely parochial and utterly biased posters.


And then there was the "New" invention on how to calculate bowling avgs

 

[mominsaigol]

Yes his initials are JJ

Why? I didn't know that but why is it JJ?

 

[mominsaigol]

Yeah it gets tiresome to discuss serious cricket with extremely parochial and utterly biased posters.


And then there was the "New" invention on how to calculate bowling avgs

It's just a discussion brother. Not the end of the world. Please calm down. I haven't said anything to you.

I just have a rivalry with @Ab Fan who i view as very annoying and hypocritical. No issues with you though.

If you don't wish to continue then that's AlrightE have a good day .

 

[uppercut]

Why? I didn't know that but why is it JJ?

The other J is probably from his middle name... not sure.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Stay on topic guys instead of having personal fights

 

[uppercut]

It's just a discussion brother. Not the end of the world. Please calm down. I haven't said anything to you.

I just have a rivalry with @Ab Fan who i view as very annoying and hypocritical. No issues with you though.

If you don't wish to continue then that's AlrightE have a good day .

Please respond to my post# 266

 

[mominsaigol]

Bumrah is considered the greatest bowler ever to play Test cricket simply because it is extremely difficult to avg well under 20 and take 200+ wkts. Especially as he has to play on unhelpful tracks in India. If you think this is easy to achieve go find me players who have done this in the past .... invariably you will have to start cherry picking stats ( like you did for Imran by removing his first match lol ) but there is nobody who has maintained a below 20 avg after 45 tests and he has done that by primarily playing.against the big teams eng,aus,sa. He has played 34 out of 45 tests against these top teams. Imagine if he plays bangla,zim,wi as often as some other players do.


BTW Shaun Pollock managed the under 20 avg for just One single test match in his 50th test but he plays a lot on extremely seamer friendly pitches.

Nobody gives a heck about avg against one particular team or 10fers.

Bumrah is considered the greatest bowler ever to play Test cricket simply because it is extremely difficult to avg well under 20 and take 200+ wkts.

The problem with this is the quality of test batters he has had to face vs the quality of test batters that someone like mcgrath has had to face. Excluding steve smith, No one can say with a straight face that brooks, Williamson, Root are better test batters then Sachin, lara, Kallis, Pointing and many others.

Especially as he has to play on unhelpful tracks in India.

Their not unhelpful, their super helpful, in this era of tests home sides curate pitches tonsuit their needs compared to the past era where their were multiple flat tracks and 5 day test games were drawn more often then not.

If you think this is easy to achieve go find me players who have done this in the past

Go find me a player in the present whos > a batter in the past excluding smith and excluding Pakistan during the ramiz era, Provide me the data of number of drawn test games in the past upto now.

Nobody gives a heck about avg against one particular team or 10fers.

They do, its indians who wish to ignore it, cause it exposes their agendas.

 

[uppercut]

Nobody gives a heck about avg against one particular team or 10fers.

They do, its indians who wish to ignore it, cause it exposes their agendas.

I will start with this point which I most vehemently disagree with ... ( I will get to the other points later)

So you dont rate Ambrose due to his bad record against India that too at home ?

Also do you rate Hadlee higher than Ambrose because he has far more 5fers and 10fers in 29 lesser inngs?

How about Joel Garner who has Zero 10fers and only 7 5fers?

How about Holding who has a similar bad avg vs NZ of 47.85 like JJ. And you have already said that you don't rate Waqar because of his avg in AUS

As you can see if start applying these filters for 10fers 5fers and avgs in a particular country all sorts of great bowlers would not make the cut.

Also pls list any reputed cricket expert that takes these filters into account for rating bowlers.

 

[mominsaigol]

I will start with this point which I most vehemently disagree with ... ( I will get to the other points later)

So you dont rate Ambrose due to his bad record against India that too at home ?

Also do you rate Hadlee higher than Ambrose because he has far more 5fers and 10fers in 29 lesser inngs?

How about Joel Garner who has Zero 10fers and only 7 5fers?

How about Holding who has a similar bad avg vs NZ of 47.85 like JJ. And you have already said that you don't rate Waqar because of his avg in AUS

As you can see if start applying these filters for 10fers 5fers and avgs in a particular country all sorts of great bowlers would not make the cut.

Also pls list any reputed cricket expert that takes these filters into account for rating bowlers.

Am watching a live game, will respond tmr. Rn watching NZ vs Pak.

 

[Bilal7]

Anyone who has real insight into the sport of cricket acknowledges Imran Khan as the greatest Asian cricket player of all-time.

- Arguably the GOAT Asian fast bowler (although Wasim is my personal #1).
- Very good batsman (50+ test average for 10 years, match-winning innings in ODI WC final).
- GOAT Asian captain.
- Good fielder.
- A legend off the field as well (philanthropy and politics).

No player comes close. Wasim, Sachin and Murali are the best pacer, batter and spinner from Asian respectively but as all-rounder cricketers they cannot touch Imran Khan.

As for Bumrah, let him get some actual longevity in his career before comparing him with the greats. He's very injury prone and so far, hasn't won India anything in test or ODI cricket.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Tell me when did I said that. This is what I said about Steve Smith last time. Don’t provide false information.

Who is this guy @Ab Fan?

Post in thread 'Is Steve Smith the best Test batter since Don Bradman?'

Nov 9, 2024

No Australian batter in modern era is fit enough to tie the shoelaces of the legendary Sachin Tendulkar.

Smith’s combined runs tally( Test+ ODIs+ T20) is half of Sachin’s combined runs tally even though he is at verge of his career end and that tells you how much behind he is to the legendary Sachin Tendulkar in the reckoning.

In terms of class of batting, AB de Villiers alone is in a different class to Smith as visible by their performance in the Sandpaper series where Starc and Cummins used illegal tricks to counter SA batting but had no answers to ABD’s calibre of batsmanship vs high...

• Ab Fan

 

[The Bald Eagle]

@The Bald Eagle @uppercut,

During Imran’s era, Marshall and Hadlee were the top two bowlers and their away averages validates this point.

Marshall away avg - 21.5
Hadlee away avg - 21.7
Imran away avg - 25.7

Imran was a top cricketer but not a tier 1 fast bowler, in the league of Marshall and Hadlee.

Now compare the away averages of Cummins and Rabada with Bumrah and you will understand who is tier 1 bowler and who is not.

Ok Marshall and Hadlee have better away bowling avg than IK, True and according to you he isn't even Tier 1 bowler of his era. Fine....but keeping in mind your below criterion how many 5fers this 2nd or 3rd tier as you guys may like to call Imran has? 5fers after same number of Tests... @Ab Fan @uppercut

Would you guys answer or should I do???
Bumrah 13 fifers after 45 matches and 86 innings
Imran 13 fifers and three 10 fers after 45 matches and 81 innings

Bumrah has 12-13 5-fers in 45 tests. That signifies his ability to run through sides. He doesn’t need to validate it with other statistical achievements. Performing in all conditions and against top opposition and winning games for his team is all what he has to do. He doesn’t have to focus on individual milestones like Imran would do.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Anyone who has real insight into the sport of cricket acknowledges Imran Khan as the greatest Asian cricket player of all-time.

- Arguably the GOAT Asian fast bowler (although Wasim is my personal #1).
- Very good batsman (50+ test average for 10 years, match-winning innings in ODI WC final).
- GOAT Asian captain.
- Good fielder.
- A legend off the field as well (philanthropy and politics).

No player comes close. Wasim, Sachin and Murali are the best pacer, batter and spinner from Asian respectively but as all-rounder cricketers they cannot touch Imran Khan.

As for Bumrah, let him get some actual longevity in his career before comparing him with the greats. He's very injury prone and so far, hasn't won India anything in test or ODI cricket.

Wasim has won 11 matches in SENA in his career, Bumrah has already won 10.
The point about ODI cricket is right but he has 6 years for that solitary world cup win that Wasim could manage.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Anyone who has real insight into the sport of cricket acknowledges Imran Khan as the greatest Asian cricket player of all-time.

- Arguably the GOAT Asian fast bowler (although Wasim is my personal #1).
- Very good batsman (50+ test average for 10 years, match-winning innings in ODI WC final).
- GOAT Asian captain.
- Good fielder.
- A legend off the field as well (philanthropy and politics).

No player comes close. Wasim, Sachin and Murali are the best pacer, batter and spinner from Asian respectively but as all-rounder cricketers they cannot touch Imran Khan.

As for Bumrah, let him get some actual longevity in his career before comparing him with the greats. He's very injury prone and so far, hasn't won India anything in test or ODI cricket.

- Good fielder.
Lets not go overboard now, lol. There are accounts of Pakistani players saying that he never liked to field and mostly used substitute.

 

[charlie007]

I have never really understood beating up others to prop up your own guy. It’s painful to see we attempt to bring down bonafide legends of the game by carefully selected stats to show them in poor light - on both sides. Imran is an ATG, and so is Sachin, and so is Wasim, and Kohli, and Bumrah is an absolute wonder and among the best ever thus far, well on the path of becoming an ATG when he retires.
We should enjoy what they have given us to cherish and we have been fortunate to see the legends play live and entertain us.
It’s hurtful, but I guess that’s the way it is. Alas!

 

[uppercut]

Ok Marshall and Hadlee have better away bowling avg than IK, True and according to you he isn't even Tier 1 bowler of his era. Fine....but keeping in mind your below criterion how many 5fers this 2nd or 3rd tier as you guys may like Imran has 5fers after same number of Tests... @Ab Fan @uppercut

Would you guys answer or should I do???
Bumrah 13 fifers after 45 matches and 86 innings
Imran 13 fifers and three 10 fers after 45 matches and 81 innings

See post# 60 that tells you how IK took most of those wkts ( bottle caps ) and also look into the "calibre" of the notorious Pakistani umpires during those days. For instance IK got 11 LBW in that "famous" home series vs India where he took 40 wkts out of those he had 11 LBWS .... compare that to Bumrahs best series the BG trophy last month and you will know the difference ... he got only 5 LBW's out of 32 wkts. This is the difference between IK and JJ where there is no doubt whatsover about any hanky-panky business. So don't ever bring up these laughable stats which only lead to more embarrasments for you because despite that huge handicap JJ avgs much better than IK at 45 match stage in their careers



​

 

[The Bald Eagle]

See post# 60 that tells you how IK took most of those wkts ( bottle caps ) and also look into the "calibre" of the notorious Pakistani umpires during those days. For instance IK got 11 LBW in that "famous" home series vs India where he took 40 wkts out of those he had 11 LBWS .... compare that to Bumrahs best series the BG trophy last month and you will know the difference ... he got only 5 LBW's out of 32 wkts. This is the difference between IK and JJ where there is no doubt whatsover about any hanky-panky business. So don't ever bring up these laughable stats which only lead to more embarrasments for you because despite that huge handicap JJ avgs much better than IK at 45 match stage in their careers



​

And here is a break down of Bumrah's wickets in the BGT

Khawaja (6 Times)
Mcsweeney (4 Times)
Cummins (3 Times)
Marsh (3 Times)
Lyon (2 Times)
Starc (1 Time)

Yep 19/32 that is almost 2/3rd wickets were against those batters who completely failed in BGT or the bowlers but yep Imran has worst quality wickets

 

[uppercut]

And here is a break down of Bumrah's wickets in the BGT

Khawaja (6 Times)
Mcsweeney (4 Times)
Cummins (3 Times)
Marsh (3 Times)
Lyon (2 Times)
Starc (1 Time)

Yep 19/32 that is almost 2/3rd wickets were against those batters who completely failed in BGT or the bowlers but yep Imran has worst quality wickets

forget good/bad/worse quality .... I'am saying plain illegal wkts that IK benefited from. Understand the big difference.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

forget good/bad/worse quality .... I'am saying plain illegal wkts that IK benefited from. Understand the big difference.

Subjective statement nothing more.... Ian Botham even lost the case on same premise

 

[uppercut]

Subjective statement nothing more.... Ian Botham even lost the case on same premise

Botham lost the libel case .... in that case Imrans lawyer actually presented evidence to prove that ball tampering was widely prevalent in cricket for many many years lol. Michael Atherton, David Lloyd, and I think Boycott provided testimony. And Atherton is on record saying that ball tampering should be made legal ... lol
​

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Botham lost the libel case .... in that case Imrans lawyer actually presented evidence to prove that ball tampering was widely prevalent in cricket for many many years lol. Michael Atherton, David Lloyd, and I think Boycott provided testimony. And Atherton is on record saying that ball tampering should be made legal ... lol
​

Hahahah... interesting...Your posts in CF are way better than TPS.

On above comment...well I never claimed Bumrah to be a chucker and won't do it now unlike majority of other posters...but if this make you feel Bumrah is better than IK then I have no issue with it.

 

[Ab Fan]

Who is this guy @Ab Fan?
View attachment 150780

Post in thread 'Is Steve Smith the best Test batter since Don Bradman?'

Nov 9, 2024

No Australian batter in modern era is fit enough to tie the shoelaces of the legendary Sachin Tendulkar.

Smith’s combined runs tally( Test+ ODIs+ T20) is half of Sachin’s combined runs tally even though he is at verge of his career end and that tells you how much behind he is to the legendary Sachin Tendulkar in the reckoning.

In terms of class of batting, AB de Villiers alone is in a different class to Smith as visible by their performance in the Sandpaper series where Starc and Cummins used illegal tricks to counter SA batting but had no answers to ABD’s calibre of batsmanship vs high...

• Ab Fan

This is my last and most recent comment on Steve Smith.

Terrific player and arguably best since Bradman in Test cricket.

I am always correct little brother.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

This is my last and most recent comment on Steve Smith.



I am always correct little brother.

Oh...got it. You had mood swings. Don't worry it happens to some people.

Hopefully Sachin is not greater than Steve Smith at all for you.

 

[uppercut]

Hahahah... interesting...Your posts in CF are way better than TPS.

but You know very well that most everything that I say on PP is pretty accurate and facts and logic based. I know my Cricket and desi politics, current events and history.

On above comment...well I never claimed Bumrah to be a chucker and won't do it now unlike majority of other posters...but if this make you feel Bumrah is better than IK then I have no issue with it.

Its not about making excuses ... facts are facts. Tomorrow if Bumrah gets called for chucking most people will abandon him and rightly so. But Pakistani fans are a different breed altogether as a whole bunch of cheating ex-pakistani cricketers are still relevant and in the news lol.

 

[mominsaigol]

I will start with this point which I most vehemently disagree with ... ( I will get to the other points later)

So you dont rate Ambrose due to his bad record against India that too at home ?

Also do you rate Hadlee higher than Ambrose because he has far more 5fers and 10fers in 29 lesser inngs?

How about Joel Garner who has Zero 10fers and only 7 5fers?

How about Holding who has a similar bad avg vs NZ of 47.85 like JJ. And you have already said that you don't rate Waqar because of his avg in AUS

As you can see if start applying these filters for 10fers 5fers and avgs in a particular country all sorts of great bowlers would not make the cut.

Also pls list any reputed cricket expert that takes these filters into account for rating bowlers.

Curtly Ambrose never played against India in test cricket? Infact he doesn't avg over 25 in any country he played in?

As for Garner, Garner doesn't have a stupidest high 45 avg red mark against any team however yes, Garner isn't all that great in test. Ambrose and Hadlee are better then he is in that era.

Ambrose > Hadlee > Garner > Bumrah in tests cricket.

Now as for Holding, He avg 47 in NZ which is fair but not 47 against said opponent. Bumrah is worse cause he played againat them in his own den.

Another thing people fail to acknowledge is that the bowlers you mentioned played against a far tougher opposition and the likes of Ambrose were consistent vs every opposition.

Bumrah has stat padded against Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and west indies who are absolutely joke Test teams in this era. Current wi, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh aren't beating even a Kenyan 2003 test team in a series that's how bad they are.

If you actually remove these stat pad series bumrah avg 26 in test cricket lol

 

[mominsaigol]

@The Bald Eagle

Let me debunk this whole 19 avg myth.

Bumrah heavily benefitted from playing 6+ test games against Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and WI. Current Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and wi are the 3 weakest test team in history with current Pakistan ranking next to them.

Their pathetically bad hence bumrah avg 9 against them.

If you remove these stat pad games, Bumrah avg 26 in test cricket, something @jeeteshssaxena @RexRex or @Ab Fan don't wish to acknowledge.

The insane weakness of these 3 teams + current Pakistan is beyond laughable.

I love bumrah but he's not > Ambrose, Hadlee or Mcgrath in test cricket.

Imran, wasim etc etc sure, Argue away, But you guys lose credibility when you put bumrah as an undisputed no 1 over the likes of mcgrath, Garner, Ambrose etc etc.

 

[RexRex]

@The Bald Eagle

Let me debunk this whole 19 avg myth.

Bumrah heavily benefitted from playing 6+ test games against Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and WI. Current Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and wi are the 3 weakest test team in history with current Pakistan ranking next to them.

Their pathetically bad hence bumrah avg 9 against them.

If you remove these stat pad games, Bumrah avg 26 in test cricket, something @jeeteshssaxena @RexRex or @Ab Fan don't wish to acknowledge.

The insane weakness of these 3 teams + current Pakistan is beyond laughable.

If SriLanka, Bangladesh and WI are so pathetically bad as u put it, Cummins and Rabada would have averaged only 9 against them, like Bumrah does. Do they ?

 

[mominsaigol]

If SriLanka, Bangladesh and WI are so pathetically bad as u put it, Cummins and Rabada would have averaged only 9 against them, like Bumrah does. Do they ?

Cummins and rabada are no where near bumrah. Don't make an apples to orange comparison.

I'm not the one comparing bumrah to proper atg's. Never claimed that Cummins and rabada are > Bumrah. However their not that far apart. Cummins avg 14 against Sri Lanka etc etc.

Someone like curtly Ambrose avg 21 against classic Australia which is more impressive then avg 17 against khawaja, konstas etc etc. Aus literally only has 2 rest batters one is smith and the other Travis is a htb and bang avg himself.

You have to be a dishonest liar to actually claim wi, Bangladesh and sri lanka + Pakistan aren't the weakest test teams in history.

Only team i can think of that's maybe worse is Zimbabwe but the Zimbabwe that Ambrose played against would whoop these 3 sides.

Their a freaking joke.

 

[uppercut]

Curtly Ambrose never played against India in test cricket? Infact he doesn't avg over 25 in any country he played in?

As for Garner, Garner doesn't have a stupidest high 45 avg red mark against any team however yes, Garner isn't all that great in test. Ambrose and Hadlee are better then he is in that era.

Ambrose > Hadlee > Garner > Bumrah in tests cricket.

Now as for Holding, He avg 47 in NZ which is fair but not 47 against said opponent. Bumrah is worse cause he played againat them in his own den.

Another thing people fail to acknowledge is that the bowlers you mentioned played against a far tougher opposition and the likes of Ambrose were consistent vs every opposition.

Bumrah has stat padded against Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and west indies who are absolutely joke Test teams in this era. Current wi, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh aren't beating even a Kenyan 2003 test team in a series that's how bad they are.

If you actually remove these stat pad series bumrah avg 26 in test cricket lol​

Where did I Say Amby did not play against India ? I said he has a very poor avg of 38.26 against India ( Which implies he has played against them). But all of that was at home where the pitches back then were predominantly pace friendly unlike Indian pitches which are predominantly spin friendly and Bumrah has played 12 tests on such pitches. What is the equivalent handicap for Amby at Home ?

If you think Indian pitches are supposed to favor fast bowlers therefore there is no excuse for Bumrah to have a poor record against any opposition IN India then there cannot be a honest conversation with you at all. Thats just plain dishonest.

And then you completely ignored these points:

1. 10fers and why are you ignoring them while rating Amby Ahead of Hadlee
2. Holdings poor avg IN NZ which definitely has seamer friendly pitches.
3. List of experts who use lack of 10fers, 5fers and poor records in ANY country to not rate bowlers.​

(And as I said I will get to the point of bowling to inferior batsmen later .... but I will not respond if you make blatantly dishonest points like Bumrah has no excuse to not do well at home but Amby can despite the pitches in WI being more suitable for fast bowling)

 

[mominsaigol]

Where did I Say Amby did not play against India ? I said he has a very poor avg of 38.26 against India ( Which implies he has played against them). But all of that was at home where the pitches back then were predominantly pace friendly unlike Indian pitches which are predominantly spin friendly and Bumrah has played 12 tests on such pitches. What is the equivalent handicap for Amby at Home ?

If you think Indian pitches are supposed to favor fast bowlers therefore there is no excuse for Bumrah to have a poor record against any opposition IN India then there cannot be a honest conversation with you at all. Thats just plain dishonest.

And then you completely ignored these points:

1. 10fers and why are you ignoring them while rating Amby Ahead of Hadlee
2. Holdings poor avg IN NZ which definitely has seamer friendly pitches.
3. List of experts who use lack of 10fers, 5fers and poor records in ANY country to not rate bowlers.​

(And as I said I will get to the point of bowling to inferior batsmen later .... but I will not respond if you make blatantly dishonest points like Bumrah has no excuse to not do well at home but Amby can despite the pitches in WI being more suitable for fast bowling)

I'm saying Ambrose never played tests in India. When did he play a test in India?

 

[uppercut]

I'm saying Ambrose never played tests in India. When did he play a test in India?

yes I know that ... which is why I said all of those tests that Amby played vs Ind were IN WI .... So its ok to have a bad record against a Particular country as long as it is at home and for WI and maybe Pak too but not for Indian fast bowlers in India ? Who makes these arbitrary rules and most importantly which reputed cricket experts follow these rules in order to rate bowlers ?

 

[mominsaigol]

yes I know that ... which is why I said all of those tests that Amby played vs Ind were IN WI .... So its ok to have a bad record against a Particular country as long as it is at home and for WI and maybe Pak too but not for Indian fast bowlers in India ? Who makes these arbitrary rules and most importantly which reputed cricket experts follow these rules in order to rate bowlers ?

Ambrose was playing against Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly, laxman etc etc?

Bumrah was facing latham, Williamson, Rachin ravindra?

And 38 avg vs a team filled with atg test batters including Sachin vs 45 avg against team filled with avg test batters including NZ who's a proven HTB?

You're not even making any sense.

Bumrah benefitted from sri lanka, Wi and Bangladesh inflation due to these 3 test teams being absolute jokes ans possibly the weakest test teams of all time.

Removing his inflations against 3, he avg 26 in tests overall

 

[uppercut]

Ambrose was playing against Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly, laxman etc etc?

Bumrah was facing latham, Williamson, Rachin ravindra?

And 38 avg vs a team filled with atg test batters including Sachin vs 45 avg against team filled with avg test batters including NZ who's a proven HTB?

You're not even making any sense.

Bumrah benefitted from sri lanka, Wi and Bangladesh inflation due to these 3 test teams being absolute jokes ans possibly the weakest test teams of all time.

Removing his inflations against 3, he avg 26 in tests overall

But your earlier point was a bowler is not allowed a bad series in any country. Now you are adding additional criteria when I showed you that Amby, Waqar and Holding have had similar bad records vs some countries ?

 

[mominsaigol]

But your earlier point was a bowler is not allowed a bad series in any country. Now you are adding additional criteria ?

One of my earliest points was bumrah benefitted from facing very weak test sides.

India literally lost to the weakest aussie test side in bgt excluding 2018, since this side has an aged khawaja, a rookie konstas/Mcsweeny, An ageing Steve smith, a htb Travis, an out of form labu not that he was ever any good to begin with etc etc.

How does bumrah avg 9 against horrifically weak teams like sri lanka, Bangladesh and wi but avg 26 otherwise including 45 against nz which has Williamson htb has their best batter remotely close to Ambrose dominating all oppositions but only being somewhat neutralised by Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly and a lineup packed with 50+ batters excluding laxman?

One of your rules was that bumrah doesn't stat pad against weak teams yet that's a blanantant lie since Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and wi are even weaker then pretty much every past time Zimbabwe and Kenya included?

Infact the only downside is that India and pakistan don't play tests because bumrah would have another joke side to feast on.

None of these 4 sides are beating any side that Ambrose faced in test cricket. They'd lose 100 out 100 test games.

 

[uppercut]

One of my earliest points was bumrah benefitted from facing very weak test sides.

India literally lost to the weakest aussie test side in bgt excluding 2018, since this side has an aged khawaja, a rookie konstas/Mcsweeny, An ageing Steve smith, a htb Travis, an out of form labu not that he was ever any good to begin with etc etc.

How does bumrah avg 9 against horrifically weak teams like sri lanka, Bangladesh and wi but avg 26 otherwise including 45 against nz which has Williamson htb has their best batter remotely close to Ambrose dominating all oppositions but only being somewhat neutralised by Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly and a lineup packed with 50+ batters excluding laxman?

One of your rules was that bumrah doesn't stat pad against weak teams yet that's a blanantant lie since Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and wi are even weaker then pretty much every past time Zimbabwe and Kenya included?

Infact the only downside is that India and pakistan don't play tests because bumrah would have another joke side to feast on.

None of these 4 sides are beating any side that Ambrose faced in test cricket. They'd lose 100 out 100 test games.

Dude Iam JUST talking about scrutinizing avgs vs certain countries( without any filters ).

1. Are you saying that thats a legit way to do it
2. OR it depends on a whole bunch of additional criteria like batting pedigree, pitches etc.

Which is it ?

And most importantly do not forget to mention the Cricket experts who use your methodology where these experts take into consideration things like Williamson and Co = HTB so if no wkts against that team then it outright disqualifies or removes him from contention of any ATG lists .

If you dont I will simply not respond to your post. Straight answers and I need names of these experts and links to such analysis if possible so I can read over the weekend.

 

[mominsaigol]

Dude Iam JUST talking about scrutinizing avgs vs certain countries( without any filters ).

1. Are you saying that thats a legit way to do it
2. OR it depends on a whole bunch of additional criteria like batting pedigree, pitches etc.

Which is it ?

And most importantly do not forget to mention the Cricket experts who use your methodology where these experts take into consideration things like Williamson and Co = HTB so if no wkts against that team then it outright disqualifies or removes him from contention of any ATG lists .

If you dont I will simply not respond to your post. Straight answers and I need names of these experts and links to such analysis if possible so I can read over the weekend.

What I'm saying is very simple so let me highlight my premise very clearly and articulately. After this I hope theirs no more confusion.

First let's get this out of the way, This isn't even about Bumrah vs Imran anymore as this is now turned into a whether bumrah is no 1 thread.

^^ I'm basing this assumption based of your earlier claim where you outright called Bumrah no 1.

Secondly here all my points.

A) Test teams in this era are far far weaker then they were back then. Sri lanka, SA, England, NZ, Pak, Wi, Aus, India are all a joke now compared to their past selves.

The best batters of this era are

1) Steve smith who's class but before his resurgence in BGT, was avg 33 for 1.5 years kn test.

2) root who is good only in certain conditons and has a pretty poor conversion rate

3) Williamson who's horrible in 4 countries and is a htb.

Everyone else like Brooks, Travis are basically frauds in test cricket. Their essentially bootleg David Warner's only capable of punishing oppositions in certain dens.

B) As a result, Bumrah has benefettited greatly from Bashing Bang, Sri Lanka and WI to inflate his avg to 19, whereas the truth is had mcgrath faced such an attack or Ambrose, they'd easily be avg 10 to 15. That's how pathetic these attacks are.

Bangladesh with the exception of Liton Das got bundled for 26/6 againat Pakistan on a flat deck road. The same road where Brooks butchered pk for 310.

These teams are pathetically weak compared to what mcgrath or Ambrose faced.

C) Finally deapite Bumrah having pathetic batters to deal with excluding root and smith, one who is aging and the other who's just decent, he avg 26 against full strength oppositions if you exclude his wi, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh stat pads.

Avg 45 against NZ and having no 10 fers in a pie easy era is a red flag and avg 26 if you exclude his stat pads vs weak teams is another.

Ambrose doesn't have a red flag vs India as those batters include Sachin( Top 3 in test all time), Dravid (Top 10 to 15 in tests all time), Ganguly (Top 20 in test all time) etc etc, 1997 india's weakest batter is Laxman who himself is pretty good.

Compare that to today's India where you have a circus clown like rohit and kohli playing.

 

[uppercut]

What I'm saying is very simple so let me highlight my premise very clearly and articulately. After this I hope theirs no more confusion.

First let's get this out of the way, This isn't even about Bumrah vs Imran anymore as this is now turned into a whether bumrah is no 1 thread.

^^ I'm basing this assumption based of your earlier claim where you outright called Bumrah no 1.

Secondly here all my points.

A) Test teams in this era are far far weaker then they were back then. Sri lanka, SA, England, NZ, Pak, Wi, Aus, India are all a joke now compared to their past selves.

The best batters of this era are

1) Steve smith who's class but before his resurgence in BGT, was avg 33 for 1.5 years kn test.

2) root who is good only in certain conditons and has a pretty poor conversion rate

3) Williamson who's horrible in 4 countries and is a htb.

Everyone else like Brooks, Travis are basically frauds in test cricket. Their essentially bootleg David Warner's only capable of punishing oppositions in certain dens.

B) As a result, Bumrah has benefettited greatly from Bashing Bang, Sri Lanka and WI to inflate his avg to 19, whereas the truth is had mcgrath faced such an attack or Ambrose, they'd easily be avg 10 to 15. That's how pathetic these attacks are.

Bangladesh with the exception of Liton Das got bundled for 26/6 againat Pakistan on a flat deck road. The same road where Brooks butchered pk for 310.

These teams are pathetically weak compared to what mcgrath or Ambrose faced.

C) Finally deapite Bumrah having pathetic batters to deal with excluding root and smith, one who is aging and the other who's just decent, he avg 26 against full strength oppositions if you exclude his wi, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh stat pads.

Avg 45 against NZ and having no 10 fers in a pie easy era is a red flag and avg 26 if you exclude his stat pads vs weak teams is another.

Ambrose doesn't have a red flag vs India as those batters include Sachin( Top 3 in test all time), Dravid (Top 10 to 15 in tests all time), Ganguly (Top 20 in test all time) etc etc, 1997 india's weakest batter is Laxman who himself is pretty good.

Compare that to today's India where you have a circus clown like rohit and kohli playing.

As I said ... unless and until you find some reputed Cricket experts that rate Williamson and co as HTB's and most importantly follow your methodology to rank bowlers you will not get any response from me because there is no end to this and I most certainly can build a similar exclusion criteria to practically rule out any bowler. It then becomes a very futile discussion.

 

[mominsaigol]

As I said ... unless and until you find some reputed Cricket experts that rate Williamson and co as HTB's and most importantly follow your methodology to rank bowlers you will not get any response from me because there is no end to this and I most certainly can build a similar exclusion criteria to practically rule out any bowler. It then becomes a very futile discussion.

Why do I need a reputed cricket expert? That's an argument from authority fallacy.

Williamson is a clown in 4 test countries, where he avg 20+, and he isn't that great in other countries? He's clearly a NZ bully? Check howstat and easily deduce it.

All those reputed cricket expert and methodology is simply an excuse from your end for not answering or addressing points.

In debating it's a logical fallacy to not address the points at hand.

Read up on argument from Authority fallacy. What you asked of me is a fallacious argument by default and a concession from your end if you're unable to actually argue directly.

 

[Bilal7]

- Good fielder.
Lets not go overboard now, lol. There are accounts of Pakistani players saying that he never liked to field and mostly used substitute.

Both things are true. He was certainly a good fielder, he had to be when he demanded so much from his players.

That said, being a Pakistani fast bowler in the 70s and 80s was hard work. I would use subs as much as I could in his shoes too.

 

[mominsaigol]

As I said ... unless and until you find some reputed Cricket experts that rate Williamson and co as HTB's and most importantly follow your methodology to rank bowlers you will not get any response from me because there is no end to this and I most certainly can build a similar exclusion criteria to practically rule out any bowler. It then becomes a very futile discussion.

I most certainly can build a similar exclusion criteria to practically rule out any bowler. It then becomes a very futile discussion.

Good luck

 

[uppercut]

Why do I need a reputed cricket expert? That's an argument from authority fallacy.

Williamson is a clown in 4 test countries, where he avg 20+, and he isn't that great in other countries? He's clearly a NZ bully? Check howstat and easily deduce it.

All those reputed cricket expert and methodology is simply an excuse from your end for not answering or addressing points.

In debating it's a logical fallacy to not address the points at hand.

Read up on argument from Authority fallacy. What you asked of me is a fallacious argument by default and a concession from your end if you're unable to actually argue directly.

I see .... so you are saying that there has been no better cricket expert than you yet ? Thats what I make of that statement.

 

[mominsaigol]

I see .... so you are saying that there has been no better cricket expert than you yet ? Thats what I make of that statement.

You can make what you wish of anything, in the same way some people on earth still believe the world is flat. Whatever suits your boat.

I'm just explaining what an argument from authority fallacy is and what you committed now is an ad hominem.

^^ Ad Hominem, Strawman, Argument from authority, Red hearing and finally argument of belief.

^^ Read up on these 5

 

[uppercut]

You can make what you wish of anything, in the same way some people on earth still believe the world is flat. Whatever suits your boat.

Naah YOU tell me as this is about YOUR cricket expertise and claim that you dont need any expert to validate your analysis as you are better ... So are you claiming that there has been no Cricket expert like you before who has a better understanding of the game ?

I'm just explaining what an argument from authority fallacy is and what you committed now is an ad hominem.

^^ Ad Hominem, Strawman, Argument from authority, Red hearing and finally argument of belief.

^^ Read up on these 5

Hang in there we will get to who is resorting to strawman, ad-hominem and logical fallacies. Answer that question above in RED first

 

[BouncerGuy]

Reality is, you cannot compare a bowler from 2025 with a bowler from 90s. Simple... different eras, different rules, different pitches. You can never justify some is better than etc etc,,,

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

@The Bald Eagle

Let me debunk this whole 19 avg myth.

Bumrah heavily benefitted from playing 6+ test games against Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and WI. Current Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and wi are the 3 weakest test team in history with current Pakistan ranking next to them.

Their pathetically bad hence bumrah avg 9 against them.

If you remove these stat pad games, Bumrah avg 26 in test cricket, something @jeeteshssaxena @RexRex or @Ab Fan don't wish to acknowledge.

The insane weakness of these 3 teams + current Pakistan is beyond laughable.

I love bumrah but he's not > Ambrose, Hadlee or Mcgrath in test cricket.

Imran, wasim etc etc sure, Argue away, But you guys lose credibility when you put bumrah as an undisputed no 1 over the likes of mcgrath, Garner, Ambrose etc etc.

Bro you are wrong here.

Bumrah averages 21 even if you remove SriLanka, Bangladesh and West Indies.

Pls check your data again.

That average is still better than all Asian pacers.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

@mominsaigol for reference.

 

[Ab Fan]

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

@mominsaigol for reference.

Wonder what would be Imran’s wicket tally after removing the true minnows, SL during Imran’s era?

316 wickets at 24, lol

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

People and especially Indian fans are always in so awe for Jasprit Bumrah and they have every legit reason to exhibit and express so much faith in his ability but the things and tall claims to paint him as the ATG are far from the reality because there were many other great bowlers before him too which exhibited such skills that hardly could any replicate.

The legendary World Cup winning captain, Imran Khan is a case in hand who was and is head and shoulders above Bumrah. While Bumrah has cost India many matches due to his No-balls, in comparison the Pakistan former captain hasn't bowled one in his entire career. Let's leave the small matrix and delve into some big statistics; You name it be it wickets taken in similar number of matches, 5fers or Test 10 fers. Khan reigns supreme over the current generation Indian sensation. Furthermore, a Comparitive analysis between both bowlers in their prime also show who is the real Tribal Chief.

So a question to Jasprit Bumrah's ardent fans, would they acknowledge the real Tribal Chief?

View attachment 150310
View attachment 150308
View attachment 150309

Bottle caps and home umpires with no DRS say Hello!!!

Imran took 41 wickets at home with all the biased advantage at average of 10
Away from home it was the average was 19.

None of Pakistan's record at home before neutral umpires era has any relevance.

Bumrah averaged 12 away and 17 at home.

 

[uppercut]

Bottle caps and home umpires with no DRS say Hello!!!

Imran took 41 wickets at home with all the biased advantage at average of 10
Away from home it was the average was 19.
View attachment 150807
None of Pakistan's record at home before neutral umpires era has any relevance.

Bumrah averaged 12 away and 17 at home.

see post# 60

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

see post# 60

Coke and Pepsi, the 12th man of Pakistani cricket

 

[Ab Fan]

No matter whatever way we put things forward, fact remains same. You include minnows or exclude them, it won’t change anything.

Away averages:-

Bumrah - 19
Imran - 25

Away averages vs top 4 teams for Bumrah- 20
Away average for Imran vs all teams excluding SL - 26

Overall avg vs top 4 teams for Bumrah and all teams excluding SL for Imran,
Bumrah - 21
Imran - 24

Bumrah is simply operating in a different league altogether to Imran Khan, the bowler. Imran is a top level cricketer but as a bowler atleast a tier or two below where Bumrah is operating till now.

 

[mominsaigol]

Bro you are wrong here.

Bumrah averages 21 even if you remove SriLanka, Bangladesh and West Indies.

Pls check your data again.

That average is still better than all Asian pacers.

26, calculate it properly

 

[mominsaigol]

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

@mominsaigol for reference.

Go to howstats, Add all the avg and divide by number.

That's how you calculate mean. You don't need espncricinfo.

You guys need to get better at math. @uppercut was claiming 414 apples a year equates to 25 apples eaten in a day, good god.

 

[mominsaigol]

Naah YOU tell me as this is about YOUR cricket expertise and claim that you dont need any expert to validate your analysis as you are better ... So are you claiming that there has been no Cricket expert like you before who has a better understanding of the game ?




Hang in there we will get to who is resorting to strawman, ad-hominem and logical fallacies. Answer that question above in RED first

Naah YOU tell me as this is about YOUR cricket expertise and claim that you dont need any expert to validate your analysis as you are better ... So are you claiming that there has been no Cricket expert like you before who has a better understanding of the game ?

The reason why im not answering this is because this is a strawman.

Hang in there we will get to who is resorting to strawman, ad-hominem and logical fallacies. Answer that question above in RED first

No need to hang in their. It's a strawman, I'm telling you as is.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

@The Bald Eagle

Let me debunk this whole 19 avg myth.

Bumrah heavily benefitted from playing 6+ test games against Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and WI. Current Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and wi are the 3 weakest test team in history with current Pakistan ranking next to them.

Their pathetically bad hence bumrah avg 9 against them.

If you remove these stat pad games, Bumrah avg 26 in test cricket, something @jeeteshssaxena @RexRex or @Ab Fan don't wish to acknowledge.

The insane weakness of these 3 teams + current Pakistan is beyond laughable.

I love bumrah but he's not > Ambrose, Hadlee or Mcgrath in test cricket.

Imran, wasim etc etc sure, Argue away, But you guys lose credibility when you put bumrah as an undisputed no 1 over the likes of mcgrath, Garner, Ambrose etc etc.

Btw even though I think Bumrah is an ATg, for me he is still not above the likes of Hadlee, Mcgrath, Ambrose.

If he takes 300 wkts with an avg<22 I would put him in that category.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Go to howstats, Add all the avg and divide by number.

That's how you calculate mean. You don't need espncricinfo.

You guys need to get better at math. @uppercut was claiming 414 apples a year equates to 25 apples eaten in a day, good god.

Bro, that is so wrong.
I really don’t want to insult you here but believe me you are completely wrong, averages are not added. Thats not how you calculate overall average.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Go to howstats, Add all the avg and divide by number.

That's how you calculate mean. You don't need espncricinfo.

You guys need to get better at math. @uppercut was claiming 414 apples a year equates to 25 apples eaten in a day, good god.

Fields Medal winner among us

 

[uppercut]

Go to howstats, Add all the avg and divide by number.

That's how you calculate mean. You don't need espncricinfo.

This is EXACTLY why the world relies on things like experts, empirical evidence and things of that nature. This is sooo wrong that I do not even know where to begin. I will have to seriously reset

You guys need to get better at math. @uppercut was claiming 414 apples a year equates to 25 apples eaten in a day, good god.

Dude !!! I explicitly told you in post #271 that I had purposely created that example to teach your buddy how to calculate avg's

Here is that post :

U

Post in thread '[PICTURES] For those who hail Jasprit Bumrah, must acknowledge the greatness of the Real Head of the Table (Imran Khan)'

Feb 13, 2025

I'm talking about pacers not spinners.

Sorry you just do not understand cricket if this is how you evaluate players

Spin bowlers have the same criteria ... but here you go here is a list of players who avg over 40 in Aus and it includes Jimmy, Waqar,Walsh etc ... now what ?

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

^^ Anyone can talk tough, I can say the same thing aka You do not understand Math if you...

• uppercut

And here is the original discussion with @The Bald Eagle which was meant to TEACH EXACTLY why you shouldn't be calculating the avg's like the two of you are suggesting.

Post in thread '[PICTURES] For those who hail Jasprit Bumrah, must acknowledge the greatness of the Real Head of the Table (Imran Khan)'

Feb 5, 2025

Forget about whether we should use averages or not for evaluating a player. I am just talking about HOW to correctly calculate overall avg. According to you we can just add up avgs in each country and divide by the number of countries. Correct ?

It ought to be but it isn't so. Because as you are the witness yourself it help some to hide bad avg against particular teams. IYKWIM.

It may not be the best criteria but certainly appears better than current one. If they want to make it more accurate than need to bring in the contemplation of economy rate too.

And it's fine that if you...

• The Bald Eagle

Since I have spectacularly failed to demonstrate how to properly calculate Weighted Averages ( BTW thats the correct mathematical technical term to describe the scenario ) let me see if I can find a different example ... lol

 

[Buffet]

Why not simply explain? People can learn.


Here you go, using an extreme example to make it clear how to calculate average.

99 tests - avg 20
1 test - avg 40

Avg of 100 tests =/= (20+40)/2

Avg of 100 tests will not be 30, but very close to 20 due to weight of 99 tests.

Avg of 100 tests: (99*20 + 1*40)/100 = 20.2

 

[mominsaigol]

Bro, that is so wrong.
I really don’t want to insult you here but believe me you are completely wrong, averages are not added. Thats not how you calculate overall average.

Okay then enlighten me

 

[uppercut]

Okay then enlighten me

See @Buffet previous post.

 

[mominsaigol]

This is EXACTLY why the world relies on things like experts, empirical evidence and things of that nature. This is sooo wrong that I do not even know where to begin. I will have to seriously reset




Dude !!! I explicitly told you in post #271 that I had purposely created that example to teach your buddy how to calculate avg's

Here is that post :

U

Post in thread '[PICTURES] For those who hail Jasprit Bumrah, must acknowledge the greatness of the Real Head of the Table (Imran Khan)'

Feb 13, 2025

I'm talking about pacers not spinners.

Sorry you just do not understand cricket if this is how you evaluate players

Spin bowlers have the same criteria ... but here you go here is a list of players who avg over 40 in Aus and it includes Jimmy, Waqar,Walsh etc ... now what ?

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

^^ Anyone can talk tough, I can say the same thing aka You do not understand Math if you...

• uppercut

And here is the original discussion with @The Bald Eagle which was meant to TEACH EXACTLY why you shouldn't be calculating the avg's like the two of you are suggesting.

Post in thread '[PICTURES] For those who hail Jasprit Bumrah, must acknowledge the greatness of the Real Head of the Table (Imran Khan)'

Feb 5, 2025

Forget about whether we should use averages or not for evaluating a player. I am just talking about HOW to correctly calculate overall avg. According to you we can just add up avgs in each country and divide by the number of countries. Correct ?

It ought to be but it isn't so. Because as you are the witness yourself it help some to hide bad avg against particular teams. IYKWIM.

It may not be the best criteria but certainly appears better than current one. If they want to make it more accurate than need to bring in the contemplation of economy rate too.

And it's fine that if you...

• The Bald Eagle

Since I have spectacularly failed to demonstrate how to properly calculate Weighted Averages ( BTW thats the correct mathematical technical term to describe the scenario ) let me see if I can find a different example ... lol

@jeeteshssaxena @Aang_The_last_airbender

Bumrah's avg and how it's calculated on howstat

17.16 +12.82 + 22.17 +45.44 + 20.76 +9.00 +9.23 ÷ 7 = 19.4

Exclude Sri Lanka + wi + bang and you get 26 .

^^ Seems like a fool proof method to me

 

[mominsaigol]

See @Buffet previous post.

I've seen his posts, it's based of no of matches calculation.

Whether you calculate via country avg, or opponent avg or year by year avg

You will always get the no 19.4 and 26.

The math is exactly the same. Don't believe me? Input it in yourself.

 

[uppercut]

I've seen his posts, it's based of no of matches calculation.

Whether you calculate via country avg, or opponent avg or year by year avg

You will always get the no 19.4 and 26.

The math is exactly the same. Don't believe me? Input it in yourself.

Lets try this .... if you sleep on an avg 8 hrs/day during weekdays and on weekends you sleep on an avg 10hrs/day what is your avg sleep duration for a week ?

according to your calculation it is = (8 + 10) /2 = 9hrs/day but the reality is like this:

Total hours slept = (8 * 5 ) + ( 10 * 2 ) = 60 hrs
Total days in a week = 7

So the avg for a week = total hrs slept / total days in a week = 60/7 = 8.571 hrs which is almost half an hour less than your calculation.

This is the same problem with Bumrah's avg calculation because he has waay too many wkts against AUS + ENG + SA which make up for 75% of his career.

 

[uppercut]

@jeeteshssaxena @Aang_The_last_airbender

Bumrah's avg and how it's calculated on howstat

17.16 +12.82 + 22.17 +45.44 + 20.76 +9.00 +9.23 ÷ 7 = 19.4

Put that in a calculator and you will get this answer : 19.511

because 17.16 +12.82 + 22.17 +45.44 + 20.76 +9.00 +9.23 = 136.58
136.58/7 = 19.511 ( and not 19.4)

Its just a sheer coincidence that it is "close" to his correct avg of 19.4. But it is WRONG !!

 

[mominsaigol]

Put that in a calculator and you will get this answer : 19.511

because 17.16 +12.82 + 22.17 +45.44 + 20.76 +9.00 +9.23 = 136.58
136.58/7 = 19.511 ( and not 19.4)

Its just a sheer coincidence that it is "close" to his correct avg of 19.4. But it is WRONG !!

Hmm fair

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

This thread became legendary from the third page

 

[uppercut]

I've seen his posts, it's based of no of matches calculation.

Whether you calculate via country avg, or opponent avg or year by year avg

You will always get the no 19.4 and 26.

The math is exactly the same. Don't believe me? Input it in yourself.

BTW most importantly why are you even using a calculator to determine any avg of any player in this day and age to begin with ? Both Cricinfo and Howstat websites have the functionality to determine overall avg based on whatever filter you want !!

 

[Buffet]

I've seen his posts, it's based of no of matches calculation.

Whether you calculate via country avg, or opponent avg or year by year avg

You will always get the no 19.4 and 26.

The math is exactly the same. Don't believe me? Input it in yourself.

No, you may get one number coincidentaly, but that's a wrong way to calculate average. I did not bother to read full thread, just saw the last 3-4 comments and thought let me share. Don't know what you guys discussed earlier. I learn lots of stuff by reading eveyone's input in all kinds of topics. Just chiming in about average calculation because I genuinely enjoy math.

Only time adding avg and dividing by 7 will give you correct answer when number of tests are exactly the same against all opponents.T If you want I can walk though examples but in abstract think about it this way,

Career Avg = total career runs/ total career wickets
Avg against set of teams = total runs against set of teams / wickets against set of teams
Avg against individual opponent = runs against individual opponent / wickets against individual opponent

All you need is : total runs/ total wickets for whatever sample set you are trying to calculate.

Avg against 2 teams = total runs against 2 teams/ total wickets against 2 teams
Avg against 7 teams = total runs against 7 teams/ total wickets against 7 teams

if the number of tests are exactly the same against 7 teams only then taking a short cut by adding avg and dividing it by two will get you correct avg against 7 teams. Because frequency of tests are not the same against each opponent, we can't add them up. When you have the same frequencies then a common factor can be taken out it gets cancelled that's why you can still get the same answer by taking the short cut, but short cut will give wrong answer if freqencies are different.

If you want to find out avg against 7 teams then simply find out runs against 7 teams taken together and divide it by total wickets against 7 teams taken together. Do it for any bowler, you should get same result as ESPN or whatever site is showing aggregate avg against specific set of oppositions.

 

[Buffet]

It's late for me otherwise, I would have used actual example and calculations. Anyway, it won't take too long. Lets take Bumrah against Aus, NZ, SA and Eng. No need to worry about nuber of tests,

Avg of bowler(Bumrah here) against Aus/Eng/SA/NZ = Runs against those 4/ wickets against those 4 = 3626/171 = 21.20
Same way his career avg = total career runs / taotal career wickets = 3977/205 = 19.40

As I said, tyring to use number of tests while calcualting average against 4 teams of 7 teams will make it calculations longer and not needed. Just total runs for whatever set / wickets against the same set will do much faster.

Out of curiousity, I added invidualal avg and divided it by 7, you get 19.5 and not 19.40 It's coindently very close but it's just coincident and that may have created the confusion. Addition is 136.55 and then dividing it by 7 gives you 19.50, but bumrah career avg right now is 19.40

 

[Buffet]

BTW most importantly why are you even using a calculator to determine any avg of any player in this day and age to begin with ? Both Cricinfo and Howstat websites have the functionality to determine overall avg based on whatever filter you want !!

I deal with numbers most of the times due to my profession, but mostly do rough calcualtions in my head without relying on calcualtors. But yah, I think lots of sites do this for you and result will be more accurate and faster.

 

[uppercut]

Naah YOU tell me as this is about YOUR cricket expertise and claim that you dont need any expert to validate your analysis as you are better ... So are you claiming that there has been no Cricket expert like you before who has a better understanding of the game ?

The reason why im not answering this is because this is a strawman.

Hang in there we will get to who is resorting to strawman, ad-hominem and logical fallacies. Answer that question above in RED first

No need to hang in their. It's a strawman, I'm telling you as is.

It is definitely not a strawman at all and I just proved it to you live as to why you need to consider expert opinions. Simple common sense should tell you that there must be a really really good reason why there is hardly any differing opinion amongst the absolute elites of the game when it comes to his greatness ( and BTW literally the entire who's - who of the cricketing world was either watching from the stadiums in Aus or watching ball-by-ball live coverage of THE Most watched Test series ever in the history of the game.

And I am not even talking about Indian experts who can be biased and prone to hyperbole. But why are random neutral experts including ex-Pakistani players going gaga about him ?

And for good measure fox sports put together a mind blowing coverage with all sorts of tech gadgetry that tracked every centimeter or degree or bounce of the ball across 5 tests. Once you watch that it becomes very obvious why he is in a different level. There is simply no way any batsman now or in the past that can handle that level of bowling for any length of time and it shows in the form of elite level stats. Yes it is not easy to maintain that but this in itself is soo surreal that it should be enjoyed by true cricket lovers just as I simply love the wizardry of Waz.​

Take it easy.

Watch this and enjoy :

 

[mominsaigol]

It is definitely not a strawman at all and I just proved it to you live as to why you need to consider expert opinions. Simple common sense should tell you that there must be a really really good reason why there is hardly any differing opinion amongst the absolute elites of the game when it comes to his greatness ( and BTW literally the entire who's - who of the cricketing world was either watching from the stadiums in Aus or watching ball-by-ball live coverage of THE Most watched Test series ever in the history of the game.

And I am not even talking about Indian experts who can be biased and prone to hyperbole. But why are random neutral experts including ex-Pakistani players going gaga about him ?

And for good measure fox sports put together a mind blowing coverage with all sorts of tech gadgetry that tracked every centimeter or degree or bounce of the ball across 5 tests. Once you watch that it becomes very obvious why he is in a different level. There is simply no way any batsman now or in the past that can handle that level of bowling for any length of time and it shows in the form of elite level stats. Yes it is not easy to maintain that but this in itself is soo surreal that it should be enjoyed by true cricket lovers just as I simply love the wizardry of Waz.​

Take it easy.

Watch this and enjoy :

An argument of authority is when you claim something to be 100% valid simply because someone else said so based of the fact that their in a position of authority to do so such as being an expert in that field,

The reason is a fallacy is because despite being experts in a field, their still giving opinions and not facts while makes them debunkabke in the first place.

Claiming one guy is superior over another due to said position is a fallacious claim.

A strawman is when you claim someone said something or implying their implying it based of a meaningless assumption which is what you did earlier.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Its not about making excuses ... facts are facts. Tomorrow if Bumrah gets called for chucking most people will abandon him and rightly so. But Pakistani fans are a different breed altogether as a whole bunch of cheating ex-pakistani cricketers are still relevant and in the news lol.

Don't worry Bumrah will never be called for Chucking....keep faith in Jay Shah

Read my first comment, I even told @The Bald Eagle that i disagree with the 350 metric and only focused on the others.

Not my fault you're choosing to skip and pick and choose

Yep @mominsaigol it's a very arbitrary criteria but I choose it as none of @Ab Fan Tier 1 bowler has less than 350 wickets infact all touch 400...350 bit is just a magnanimous offer for Indians as the focal person of this thread IK had 362 Test career wickets...so the reason behind this leniency.

 

[RexRex]

Cummins and rabada are no where near bumrah. Don't make an apples to orange comparison.

I'm not the one comparing bumrah to proper atg's. Never claimed that Cummins and rabada are > Bumrah. However their not that far apart. Cummins avg 14 against Sri Lanka etc etc.

Someone like curtly Ambrose avg 21 against classic Australia which is more impressive then avg 17 against khawaja, konstas etc etc. Aus literally only has 2 rest batters one is smith and the other Travis is a htb and bang avg himself.

You have to be a dishonest liar to actually claim wi, Bangladesh and sri lanka + Pakistan aren't the weakest test teams in history.

Only team i can think of that's maybe worse is Zimbabwe but the Zimbabwe that Ambrose played against would whoop these 3 sides.

Their a freaking joke.

Your reliance on statistical contortions to drive forward a favourable narrative is impressive but it gets tired after a while. Try arguing in good faith for a change.

 

[Kianig89]

Good that Bumrah is missing CT, chucker would have ruined the tournament his action is dubious, name one bowler from the past who action like Bumrah or close to Bumrah or synchronised with Bumrah