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[PICTURES/VIDEOS] Jasprit Bumrah is the best fast-bowler in the world right now

We are having sound sleep but it seems you are having nightmares of bumrah being greatest ever bolwer. Typical pakistani full of hatered just tgey can’t digest that greatest fast bowler is indian. Its quite amusing they become neutral just to undermine bumrah. See something more for you

Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath will have something to say about it.
 
Oh got it. You were referring to wickets against top countries. Off course volume against top sides will be far less than volume including bottom tier and minnows. My bad. Apologies I did not pick that up.

To not have that issue, a better comparison will be to limit comparison to top countries for both, that way volume won't be too different. You can see over all and away in tests involving top 5 based on W/L. Same sample size for both. There is no difference between number of wickets against top sides.


Bumrah has the same longevity as Wasim against top sides of his era.

-------------------------------------------

Bumrah in tests involving top 5 sides away in his era: 145 wickets - Avg 20.3 - SR 44
Wasim in tests involving top 5 sides away in his era: 105 wickets - Avg 26.9 - SR 61


Bumrah in tests involving top 5 sides of his era : 171 wickets - Avg 21.2 - SR 45
Wasim in tests involving top 5 sides of his era: 187 wickets - Avg 24.7 - SR 55

---------------------------------------------


Wasim averaging 26.9 away with SR of 61 is not due to era being hard. McGrath/Ambrose bowled at the same time. Donald also had better outputs away. Away was at equal footing where we don't need to worry about flat Pakistani pitches.

Bumrah is averaging 9-12 against WI/SL/BD etc. Him bringing his career average down by picking lots of wickets against bottom team or minnows won't make him greater depite wickets tally looking great. If you are waiting for Bumrah to pick up cheap wickets against bottom tier/minnows like SL/WI/BD/Zim etc before rating him then it's a different issue. I don't think that does anything for any bowler. That's just stats padding and not very meaningful for stature of players.

Okay, these are more meaningful stats and comparison makes sense.

Which teams are picked here? I am sure you picked different teams as you mentioned “of their era”.

Bumrah - Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand and 1 more? Sri Lanka?

Wasim - Windies, Australia, South Africa, England and India?

I think we may also have to consider that players decline in second half of their careers. The decline can be like a Botham, Kapil, Waqar, Pollock or there may not be any major decline. +1-2 average can be done for Bumrah as his career is far from over now.
 
Okay, these are more meaningful stats and comparison makes sense.

Which teams are picked here? I am sure you picked different teams as you mentioned “of their era”.

Top 5 in Wasim's career and top 5 in Bumrah's career: All tests involving top 5 tests teams. Stats are for those teams for both.



1736479187018.png


1736479098066.png
 
I think we may also have to consider that players decline in second half of their careers. The decline can be like a Botham, Kapil, Waqar, Pollock or there may not be any major decline. +1-2 average can be done for Bumrah as his career is far from over now.

That point is a good one. I do expect Bumrah to decline as well. But question should be decline from where and how much. For example, in away.. he can pick 50 more wickets at avg of 30 and still will be much lower avg with better SR by some margin and go above in number of wickets as well. I don't expect or predict that avg will be 30 going forward, just making a point.

Decline is gunrateed. But after taking a huge lead, you can sustain some decline and still do very well.

He has already played as much as Wasim against top sides. In future also, he is simply going to play more games against top sides than Sl/WI/BD/Zim. So even with decline, he is simply going to have longevity advanatge over Wasim against better sides.


----------------------

Anyway, it's just arguement for fun. I had priviledge to watch Wasim. I tuned in to watch Pakistani games just to watch Wasim bowl. I had him as the best Pakistani pacer due to seeing him trouble batsmen often. But recently after looking closely, I have changed my opinion a bit. I think the best test pacer from Pakistan is IK. His output simply is better than Wasim against good teams. We often confuse and mix elite shorter format Wasim with not so elite test format Wasim. IK had many of the elite test outputs if not all. I don't see elite outputs over his career for Wasim. It's not even about poor start or decline. You can take out first 2 and the last 2 years for Wasim and he had similar outputs. I had looked at Waqar's output closely but never did for Wasim. Now I did for all 3 great Pakistani pacers and think IK is the best test pacer and falls into elite category. In skills, Wasim was as elite as you get though. Talking about output here.

I loved watching Wasim, Warne, Ambrose then. I loved watching Steyn in middle. Now enjoy watching Bumrah. Arguments are just for fun. Main thing is having a great priviledge to watch all these greats performing their art in real time. Cricket is far rich due to all playing one time or another. I will be glad if we get more gun players in future. That's the point of watching sports.
 
Right now, he is the best. No matter what situation you use, umrah will be among the best of the best among the current bowlers.

Don't wanna go into past or future talks. I don't think they matter that much. What matters is the present and Bumrah is best atm
 
We are having sound sleep but it seems you are having nightmares of bumrah being greatest ever bolwer. Typical pakistani full of hatered just tgey can’t digest that greatest fast bowler is indian. Its quite amusing they become neutral just to undermine bumrah. See something more for youView attachment 149491
Greatest ever who has a combined tally of 354 wickets in ODIs and Tests and already looking like he’s going to retire soon because he can’t keep up with high levels of fitness required to play cricket lol. Some should give an award to Indians for being the most delusional people ever in history.
 
There is an even more basic requirement for forming a legacy which is that all sporting achievements be made without violating any rules and ethics. So Indulging in ball tampering, match fixing etc makes any discussion about legacy a non-starter.

But like I said even if we ignore the legalities and Ethics aspect of it you still have to deal with the uncomfortable fact that none of your Cricketers achieved anything noteworthy despite cheating ... certainly not before India who you are claiming have no fast bowling legacy. Everything from winning WC to Away Test series in multiple countries we have done it way before your phasth ballers could achieve those. So what are you even flexing about here ? Forget Test cricket your supposedly world beating Phashth ballers have not even won a ODI WC match against your arch rival. LoL

As for the document... well its called the MCC Cricket rules where It says that a team needs to bowl out the opposition twice for lesser Runs than your team in order to win a Test match. Something your great phasth ballers have failed to do in every Single test Match against the top side Australia for 25 yrs and counting. And why Australia you ask ? Well they are the Top cricketing team by far and therefore players will be measured based on their achievements against them.Thats
cricket 101.

So you should be the last person to flex on the topic about legacy. You don't even understand what legacy is 🤣
Hang on. You have exposed yourself again.

You claimed that Australia is the top cricketing nation and if you don’t win in Australia, you cannot have a legacy as a player.

You are clearly ignorant of the fact that during Imran Khan’s career, Pakistan was consistently better than Australia. In fact, Pakistan was the #2 team after West Indies.

The tide turned post mid 90s and that is when Australia went ahead of Pakistan.
 
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You are clearly ignorant of the fact that during Imran Khan’s career, Pakistan was consistently better than Australia. In fact, Pakistan was the #2 team after West Indies..

If they were consistently better then lets see the list of series that Pak won in Aus during the sher Khan's career ...

Got nothing? No worries.. How about draws ?

Get the drift ?
 
That point is a good one. I do expect Bumrah to decline as well. But question should be decline from where and how much. For example, in away.. he can pick 50 more wickets at avg of 30 and still will be much lower avg with better SR by some margin and go above in number of wickets as well. I don't expect or predict that avg will be 30 going forward, just making a point.

Decline is gunrateed. But after taking a huge lead, you can sustain some decline and still do very well.

He has already played as much as Wasim against top sides. In future also, he is simply going to play more games against top sides than Sl/WI/BD/Zim. So even with decline, he is simply going to have longevity advanatge over Wasim against better sides.


----------------------

Anyway, it's just arguement for fun. I had priviledge to watch Wasim. I tuned in to watch Pakistani games just to watch Wasim bowl. I had him as the best Pakistani pacer due to seeing him trouble batsmen often. But recently after looking closely, I have changed my opinion a bit. I think the best test pacer from Pakistan is IK. His output simply is better than Wasim against good teams. We often confuse and mix elite shorter format Wasim with not so elite test format Wasim. IK had many of the elite test outputs if not all. I don't see elite outputs over his career for Wasim. It's not even about poor start or decline. You can take out first 2 and the last 2 years for Wasim and he had similar outputs. I had looked at Waqar's output closely but never did for Wasim. Now I did for all 3 great Pakistani pacers and think IK is the best test pacer and falls into elite category. In skills, Wasim was as elite as you get though. Talking about output here.

I loved watching Wasim, Warne, Ambrose then. I loved watching Steyn in middle. Now enjoy watching Bumrah. Arguments are just for fun. Main thing is having a great priviledge to watch all these greats performing their art in real time. Cricket is far rich due to all playing one time or another. I will be glad if we get more gun players in future. That's the point of watching sports.

I won’t really put it against any bowler in case he doesn’t get to play as many games vs top teams at his prime as some other bowler might get.

Wasim and Waqar were at their prime between 1990-1995 and Wasim was good after that too but a lot of the matches Pakistan played were against NZ. Can’t really put that against them.

Also, home performances shouldn’t be undervalued either. Picking wickets in Asia at home and then going overseas and picking wickets there bowling different line and length is not an easy task. Being able to do one thing and not do other is easier. That’s why I feel Bumrah needs a bit more home matches sample vs top teams before we finally get into any conclusions.
 
This debate still going on>??? LOL

Bumrah is currently the best one to play this game. Period
 
I won’t really put it against any bowler in case he doesn’t get to play as many games vs top teams at his prime as some other bowler might get.

Wasim and Waqar were at their prime between 1990-1995 and Wasim was good after that too but a lot of the matches Pakistan played were against NZ. Can’t really put that against them.

Agreed, Wasim was good in most of his career and we can't say that he did not get to play enough tests against top teams during his career. He has played lots of tests. For prime, we can examine.

Wasim and Waqar were at their prime between 1990-1995: Let run with that and see what they did away in matches involving top 5 tests sides in that period.

1736567816513.png



Even in prime/peak period, it's not sub 25 avg. You can get supee flat era or something so always see relative with others. In the same period, Ambrose/Bishop away averaged 16-20 with mid 40s SR. So clearly, some bowlers were able to outperform Wasim and Waqar even during their prime.


Yes, you are correct about not ignoring home. Home good record is pretty much present for all greats and also for a bit below level, but good away records becomes rare. I am not ignoring home record at all. I am taking it for granted for most good players. I have not come across any great pacer with great away but ordinary home record.

If you want to see home and away combined in prime of Wasim and Waqar,


1736568290035.png

Streak and Reid have less tests, so we can ignore, but we can't ignore Bishop and Ambrose occupying the top spot.

Wasim produced good home + away in his peak without outperforming others. Wasim's peak record is similar to career record of many greats , which includes their peak and non-peak both. Waqar's output was clearly even below that level and not that great even in his prime home and away combined against good teams.

Agree that bowler's peak comes at different times and some time you play some teams more. No fault of bowler, but whatever tests you play against top team in your peak, you got to make it count. Wasim/Waqar both were outperformed by many bowlers away and some bowlers over all even during their prime. We are not talking about entire career. If you can't outperform others even in your prime, how can you stand out in history and be a contender for the top 5-7 pacers spots?

If you think 14/15 tests were very low, that's 1/3rd of Bumran's entire career and around 1/5th of Mashall's entire career.
How many tests can you expect to play against top teams when you start looking at narrow window of 5 years due to being bowler's prime. I don't think we can say that bowlers need to get 40 tests against top sides and that too in his 5 years of prime. It will happen rarely.


Having said all this, we are talking about top 15 tests pacers here. I include Waqar in that list.
 
Agree mcgrath ,Hadlee, Marshall , Bumrah and steyn make top 5 of all time in test matches
But don't forget bumrah doesn't get to stat pad on seaming tracks Luke steyn Marshall etc.
Or mcg in Australia with nice bouncy pitches

He gets crap turning raging dust bowls at home.

But yes I agree
For now I have booms at top 8 ish. Cause of longevity. All time. But if he gets to say 65 tests to 70 then sure yea top 5.
 
350 wickets with the same average and SR in Tests, I'd rate him top 5. But sorry to say, hard to look past the great Glenn McGrath.
 
350 wickets with the same average and SR in Tests, I'd rate him top 5.

If any bowler does that with a high impact, he becomes undisputed best in history. Not top 5. I don't think Bumrah will do it, he will start declining.

Agree mcgrath ,Hadlee, Marshall , Bumrah and steyn make top 5 of all time in test matches
Not yet, some more to get to top 5 in test format. Right now, comfortably in the top 10.

Marshall, Hadlee, Mcgrath, Steyn, Ambrose makes top 5. Once undisputed top 5 then it will be obvious. Right now top 10 is obvious.
 
If any bowler does that with a high impact, he becomes undisputed best in history. Not top 5. I don't think Bumrah will do it, he will start declining.


Not yet, some more to get to top 5 in test format. Right now, comfortably in the top 10.

Marshall, Hadlee, Mcgrath, Steyn, Ambrose makes top 5. Once undisputed top 5 then it will be obvious. Right now top 10 is obvious.
Best from Asia for sure

Are we accounting for rubbish home pitches

Boom doesn't get the privilege to star pad at home on lovely seaming tracks.

Yes i know he averages 16 at home but that average would be even better if he bowled on sea pitches
 
Agreed, Wasim was good in most of his career and we can't say that he did not get to play enough tests against top teams during his career. He has played lots of tests. For prime, we can examine.

Wasim and Waqar were at their prime between 1990-1995: Let run with that and see what they did away in matches involving top 5 tests sides in that period.

View attachment 149544



Even in prime/peak period, it's not sub 25 avg. You can get supee flat era or something so always see relative with others. In the same period, Ambrose/Bishop away averaged 16-20 with mid 40s SR. So clearly, some bowlers were able to outperform Wasim and Waqar even during their prime.


Yes, you are correct about not ignoring home. Home good record is pretty much present for all greats and also for a bit below level, but good away records becomes rare. I am not ignoring home record at all. I am taking it for granted for most good players. I have not come across any great pacer with great away but ordinary home record.

If you want to see home and away combined in prime of Wasim and Waqar,


View attachment 149545

Streak and Reid have less tests, so we can ignore, but we can't ignore Bishop and Ambrose occupying the top spot.

Wasim produced good home + away in his peak without outperforming others. Wasim's peak record is similar to career record of many greats , which includes their peak and non-peak both. Waqar's output was clearly even below that level and not that great even in his prime home and away combined against good teams.

Agree that bowler's peak comes at different times and some time you play some teams more. No fault of bowler, but whatever tests you play against top team in your peak, you got to make it count. Wasim/Waqar both were outperformed by many bowlers away and some bowlers over all even during their prime. We are not talking about entire career. If you can't outperform others even in your prime, how can you stand out in history and be a contender for the top 5-7 pacers spots?

If you think 14/15 tests were very low, that's 1/3rd of Bumran's entire career and around 1/5th of Mashall's entire career.
How many tests can you expect to play against top teams when you start looking at narrow window of 5 years due to being bowler's prime. I don't think we can say that bowlers need to get 40 tests against top sides and that too in his 5 years of prime. It will happen rarely.


Having said all this, we are talking about top 15 tests pacers here. I include Waqar in that list.
Agreed, Wasim was good in most of his career and we can't say that he did not get to play enough tests against top teams during his career. He has played lots of tests. For prime, we can examine.

Wasim and Waqar were at their prime between 1990-1995: Let run with that and see what they did away in matches involving top 5 tests sides in that period.

View attachment 149544



Even in prime/peak period, it's not sub 25 avg. You can get supee flat era or something so always see relative with others. In the same period, Ambrose/Bishop away averaged 16-20 with mid 40s SR. So clearly, some bowlers were able to outperform Wasim and Waqar even during their prime.


Yes, you are correct about not ignoring home. Home good record is pretty much present for all greats and also for a bit below level, but good away records becomes rare. I am not ignoring home record at all. I am taking it for granted for most good players. I have not come across any great pacer with great away but ordinary home record.

If you want to see home and away combined in prime of Wasim and Waqar,


View attachment 149545

Streak and Reid have less tests, so we can ignore, but we can't ignore Bishop and Ambrose occupying the top spot.

Wasim produced good home + away in his peak without outperforming others. Wasim's peak record is similar to career record of many greats , which includes their peak and non-peak both. Waqar's output was clearly even below that level and not that great even in his prime home and away combined against good teams.

Agree that bowler's peak comes at different times and some time you play some teams more. No fault of bowler, but whatever tests you play against top team in your peak, you got to make it count. Wasim/Waqar both were outperformed by many bowlers away and some bowlers over all even during their prime. We are not talking about entire career. If you can't outperform others even in your prime, how can you stand out in history and be a contender for the top 5-7 pacers spots?

If you think 14/15 tests were very low, that's 1/3rd of Bumran's entire career and around 1/5th of Mashall's entire career.
How many tests can you expect to play against top teams when you start looking at narrow window of 5 years due to being bowler's prime. I don't think we can say that bowlers need to get 40 tests against top sides and that too in his 5 years of prime. It will happen rarely.


Having said all this, we are talking about top 15 tests pacers here. I include Waqar in that list.
But don't forget bumrah doesn't get to stat pad on seaming tracks Luke steyn Marshall etc.
Or mcg in Australia with nice bouncy pitches

He gets crap turning raging dust bowls at home.

But yes I agree
For now I have booms at top 8 ish. Cause of longevity. All time. But if he gets to say 65 tests to 70 then sure yea top 5.

Yeah about 20 tests should do.All the greats from mid 80s onwards have sample of atleast 80 tests so he would look to get it to 65 considering he has played a lot vs top teams.
 
This debate still going on>??? LOL

Bumrah is currently the best one to play this game. Period

Bumrah tends to choke during important knockout games (2017 CT final, 2023 WC final etc.).

I think Cummins is the best pacer in the world in terms of impact.
 
Best from Asia for sure

Are we accounting for rubbish home pitches

Boom doesn't get the privilege to star pad at home on lovely seaming tracks.

Yes i know he averages 16 at home but that average would be even better if he bowled on sea pitches

The best from Asia, yah strong case. But none of the Asian pacers will make into top 5.

You are right. Asian bowlers don't get lovely seaming tracks at home, but if you take only away for all bowlers then Asian pacers are getting those lovely pitches and at the same time non-asian pacers don't have home pitch included in that. Bumrah is right up there among the best so far, another 40 wickets with a good output, he will be undisputed top 5. Away for all removes pitches at home for everyone. No arguemnt for stats padding for anyone at home when eveyrone is playing away.

He is surely a candidate for top 5 but does not becomes an automatic choice due to lacking a bit in over all volume against top sides.


---------------------------------------------

To see historically,


Wickets in tests involving top 5 sides in their respective eras(away) - There is no stats padding due to lovely home pitches by anyone here. Bumrah is better in away conditions against top teams in the last in longevity and quality both compared to all 90s greats. Nothing to prove for Bumrah in away conditions. Neither in quality nor in volume.

Bumrah - 145 wickets
McGrath - 131 wickets
Ambrose - 106 wickets
Wasim - 105 wickets
Donald - 73 wickets





Even wickets in tests involving top 5 sides in their respective eras( home and away both)

McGrath - 298 wickets
Ambrose - 206 wickets
Wasim - 187 wickets
Donald - 180 wickets
Bumrah - 171 wickets


---------------------------------------------


Here he needs to add 30-40 wickets to make volume irrelevant for comparison. It's already irrelevant when compared to Donald and Wasim. 30-40 more, Ambrose does not have volume advantsge either.

Once he gets to 30-40 more wickets against top teams, he will be undisputed top 5 test bowler in quality and volume both. Only McGrath from 90s can be ahead on volume. From 80s you take Marhsall and Hadlee, so comfortably in top 5 even if you make a case for one additional pacer.

I did not list data for Steyn/Marshall/Hadlee here because it gets hard to filter top 5 sides for all eras. But you can see that Bumrah has already high up there in volume and quality both in tests involving top 5 sides. 30-40 test wickets, no arguemnt left to not have him in the top 5.

People still stuck with career volume( 300 - 400 test wickets) due to cheap wickets against minnows and bottom sides - well he is averaging 9-12 agasint WI/BD/SL, but it does not add much to the greatness for anyone. Anyone holding onto volume argument is missing the point. That way you can just make a case for Anderson for the best pacer in history because no one else has that volume.
 
Bumrah tends to choke during important knockout games (2017 CT final, 2023 WC final etc.).

I think Cummins is the best pacer in the world in terms of impact.

When it comes to group stage/bilateral/unimportant games, Bumrah is the best.

When it comes to knockout/impprtant games, Cummins and Starc are the best.
 
Yeah about 20 tests should do.All the greats from mid 80s onwards have sample of atleast 80 tests so he would look to get it to 65 considering he has played a lot vs top teams.
Yah, 65 tests will do given most of his tests/wickets have come against top sides and likely to be the case in future as well. With 65 tests, longevity becomes a non-issue.

Having 15 extra tests against poor teams BD/Zim/SL/WI won't add anything in legacy. Its just stats padding and given his avg of 9-12, he can do that statspadding better than pretty much anyone in history. It's meanigless when comparing. If he gets 50 cheap wickets at avg of 10 against them , I am not going to start rating him higher. 50 wickets at good avg against top sides, then he is golden.
 
Agreed, Wasim was good in most of his career and we can't say that he did not get to play enough tests against top teams during his career. He has played lots of tests. For prime, we can examine.

Wasim and Waqar were at their prime between 1990-1995: Let run with that and see what they did away in matches involving top 5 tests sides in that period.

View attachment 149544



Even in prime/peak period, it's not sub 25 avg. You can get supee flat era or something so always see relative with others. In the same period, Ambrose/Bishop away averaged 16-20 with mid 40s SR. So clearly, some bowlers were able to outperform Wasim and Waqar even during their prime.


Yes, you are correct about not ignoring home. Home good record is pretty much present for all greats and also for a bit below level, but good away records becomes rare. I am not ignoring home record at all. I am taking it for granted for most good players. I have not come across any great pacer with great away but ordinary home record.

If you want to see home and away combined in prime of Wasim and Waqar,


View attachment 149545

Streak and Reid have less tests, so we can ignore, but we can't ignore Bishop and Ambrose occupying the top spot.

Wasim produced good home + away in his peak without outperforming others. Wasim's peak record is similar to career record of many greats , which includes their peak and non-peak both. Waqar's output was clearly even below that level and not that great even in his prime home and away combined against good teams.

Agree that bowler's peak comes at different times and some time you play some teams more. No fault of bowler, but whatever tests you play against top team in your peak, you got to make it count. Wasim/Waqar both were outperformed by many bowlers away and some bowlers over all even during their prime. We are not talking about entire career. If you can't outperform others even in your prime, how can you stand out in history and be a contender for the top 5-7 pacers spots?

If you think 14/15 tests were very low, that's 1/3rd of Bumran's entire career and around 1/5th of Mashall's entire career.
How many tests can you expect to play against top teams when you start looking at narrow window of 5 years due to being bowler's prime. I don't think we can say that bowlers need to get 40 tests against top sides and that too in his 5 years of prime. It will happen rarely.


Having said all this, we are talking about top 15 tests pacers here. I include Waqar in that list.
Somone does that bowler's peak analysis on Cricinfo, Waqar had the best peak of all the bowlers, and Imran had the best average.
 
The best from Asia, yah strong case. But none of the Asian pacers will make into top 5.

You are right. Asian bowlers don't get lovely seaming tracks at home, but if you take only away for all bowlers then Asian pacers are getting those lovely pitches and at the same time non-asian pacers don't have home pitch included in that. Bumrah is right up there among the best so far, another 40 wickets with a good output, he will be undisputed top 5. Away for all removes pitches at home for everyone. No arguemnt for stats padding for anyone at home when eveyrone is playing away.

He is surely a candidate for top 5 but does not becomes an automatic choice due to lacking a bit in over all volume against top sides.


---------------------------------------------

To see historically,


Wickets in tests involving top 5 sides in their respective eras(away) - There is no stats padding due to lovely home pitches by anyone here. Bumrah is better in away conditions against top teams in the last in longevity and quality both compared to all 90s greats. Nothing to prove for Bumrah in away conditions. Neither in quality nor in volume.

Bumrah - 145 wickets
McGrath - 131 wickets
Ambrose - 106 wickets
Wasim - 105 wickets
Donald - 73 wickets





Even wickets in tests involving top 5 sides in their respective eras( home and away both)

McGrath - 298 wickets
Ambrose - 206 wickets
Wasim - 187 wickets
Donald - 180 wickets
Bumrah - 171 wickets


---------------------------------------------


Here he needs to add 30-40 wickets to make volume irrelevant for comparison. It's already irrelevant when compared to Donald and Wasim. 30-40 more, Ambrose does not have volume advantsge either.

Once he gets to 30-40 more wickets against top teams, he will be undisputed top 5 test bowler in quality and volume both. Only McGrath from 90s can be ahead on volume. From 80s you take Marhsall and Hadlee, so comfortably in top 5 even if you make a case for one additional pacer.

I did not list data for Steyn/Marshall/Hadlee here because it gets hard to filter top 5 sides for all eras. But you can see that Bumrah has already high up there in volume and quality both in tests involving top 5 sides. 30-40 test wickets, no arguemnt left to not have him in the top 5.

People still stuck with career volume( 300 - 400 test wickets) due to cheap wickets against minnows and bottom sides - well he is averaging 9-12 agasint WI/BD/SL, but it does not add much to the greatness for anyone. Anyone holding onto volume argument is missing the point. That way you can just make a case for Anderson for the best pacer in history because no one else has that volume.
Away from home in sena is still away pitches so it'd not the same. Same sort of pitches have to be replicated and provided to Asian pacers cause otherwise it wouldn't be home advantage. I disagree with that notion.

Conditions etc are vastly different. A player who grew up on seaming tracks has a huge advantage in such wickets.

Asian players bowling average should always be reduced by 3 points I feel.

They don't have that privilege at all to plunder wickets at will on lovely bouncy seaming tracks that sena teams get.
 
Away from home in sena is still away pitches so it'd not the same. Same sort of pitches have to be replicated and provided to Asian pacers cause otherwise it wouldn't be home advantage. I disagree with that notion.

Conditions etc are vastly different. A player who grew up on seaming tracks has a huge advantage in such wickets.

Asian players bowling average should always be reduced by 3 points I feel.

They don't have that privilege at all to plunder wickets at will on lovely bouncy seaming tracks that sena teams get.

South African bowlers have skewed strike rate. Conditions where you can pick up 2 or 3 wickets in very quick time. They thrive in similar conditions as well.
 

Somone does that bowler's peak analysis on Cricinfo, Waqar had the best peak of all the bowlers, and Imran had the best average.

Yes, I am aware of that stats. Statistically without taking account of quality of opposition, Waqar's peak is as great as anyone.

In tests involving top 6 sides, he has avg of 25-26 during his peak. Leaving out one Minnow/7th best teams during his peak and he can't get his avg sub 25 collectively against others. That's not really a great peak and not worth hyping.

On other hands, from Pakistan itself - IK had a great peak when you take account of quality. That is something to talk.
 
Away from home in sena is still away pitches so it'd not the same. Same sort of pitches have to be replicated and provided to Asian pacers cause otherwise it wouldn't be home advantage. I disagree with that notion.

Conditions etc are vastly different. A player who grew up on seaming tracks has a huge advantage in such wickets.

Asian players bowling average should always be reduced by 3 points I feel.

They don't have that privilege at all to plunder wickets at will on lovely bouncy seaming tracks that sena teams get.


You missed the point I was making.

No Asian and non-Asian pacer is getting advantage or disadvanteg for home pitches when you see only away record for all. It's more of a equal footing with diverified conditions. That's why, away separates true greats from good players. You can't be a great by doing HTBs and being ordinary away.

That's the reason I want Rabada to improve his record in India/Pakistan. Him getting cheap wickets at home won't make him higher in stature.
 
You missed the point I was making.

No Asian and non-Asian pacer is getting advantage or disadvanteg for home pitches when you see only away record for all. It's more of a equal footing with diverified conditions. That's why, away separates true greats from good players. You can't be a great by doing HTBs and being ordinary away.

That's the reason I want Rabada to improve his record in India/Pakistan. Him getting cheap wickets at home won't make him higher in stature.
Tbf I don't expect anyone to do well in slow raging turning pitches of india.
 
Tbf I don't expect anyone to do well in slow raging turning pitches of india.
Fine, but collectively away for bowlers will be lots of other venues taken together.

Example : For Eng players - they are not just bowling in India, they are also bowling in SA, NZ and AUS as top oppositions. If you don't have skills to do well in India then you should have skills to do so much better in SA/NZ/Aus that you make it up for poor performance in Ind. If you can't do well taken together in top venues then it's surely an issue.

Collectively, you have enough chance to show your skills in all kinds of pitches when playing away. Eveyone has differnet home conditions, but they are on more equal footings when playing away due to getting chance in different kind of pitches. That's more of one to one comparison. That's why I like collective away a lot more than career figure, which is heavily influenced by home conditions.
 
Major Blow For India As Jasprit Bumrah Advised Bed-Rest For Back Swelling: Report

Jasprit Bumrah has reportedly been advised bed rest until the swelling in his back subsides, in what would come as a massive blow to India’s hopes of seeing the premier fast-bowler back for the 2025 Champions Trophy.

According to The Times of India, Bumrah returned home from Australia last week and is supposed to visit the Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI)’s Centre of Excellence (formerly, the NCA). However, a date for his visit hasn’t been set, which makes it difficult to set a timeline for his recovery.

“Bumrah could go to the CoE next week but right now there is no fixed date yet. He has been advised bed rest at home to help the muscles recover and the swelling to subside. Once that is done, future course of action will be ascertained," Times of India quoted a source as saying.

The exact diagnosis of the injury is still unclear. However, the hope is that the injury is nothing more serious than swelling.

“Bed rest doesn’t sound good. I hope it’s not a disc bulge or a muscle swelling which is of a higher grade. The approach has to be similar with him – wrap him in cotton wool and preserve the talent like him," the cited source added in the report.

Bumrah picked up the injury after carrying the extra workload of the inexperienced Indian attack in the 2024-25 Border-Gavaskar Trophy in Australia. He couldn’t bowl in the final innings of the last Test in Sydney and was seen going out of the Syndey Cricket Ground (SCG) for treatment during the match.

The report also quoted former India strength and conditioning coach Ramji Srinivasan. According to him, swelling in back isn’t as serious as a ‘disc bulge’, which might rule the pacer out for a longer time.

“Swelling happens if there is a tear because of edema formation – which depends on the grade of tear in the muscle. If it’s a disc bulge or swelling then recovery also depends on grade, individual capacity, medical intervention and post medical rehab work," says Srinivasan.

India are yet to announce their provisional squad for the 2025 Champions Trophy. The final list needs to be submitted by February 13.

 
Bumrah felt it was time to step up

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Agreed, Wasim was good in most of his career and we can't say that he did not get to play enough tests against top teams during his career. He has played lots of tests. For prime, we can examine.

Wasim and Waqar were at their prime between 1990-1995: Let run with that and see what they did away in matches involving top 5 tests sides in that period.

View attachment 149544



Even in prime/peak period, it's not sub 25 avg. You can get supee flat era or something so always see relative with others. In the same period, Ambrose/Bishop away averaged 16-20 with mid 40s SR. So clearly, some bowlers were able to outperform Wasim and Waqar even during their prime.


Yes, you are correct about not ignoring home. Home good record is pretty much present for all greats and also for a bit below level, but good away records becomes rare. I am not ignoring home record at all. I am taking it for granted for most good players. I have not come across any great pacer with great away but ordinary home record.

If you want to see home and away combined in prime of Wasim and Waqar,


View attachment 149545

Streak and Reid have less tests, so we can ignore, but we can't ignore Bishop and Ambrose occupying the top spot.

Wasim produced good home + away in his peak without outperforming others. Wasim's peak record is similar to career record of many greats , which includes their peak and non-peak both. Waqar's output was clearly even below that level and not that great even in his prime home and away combined against good teams.

Agree that bowler's peak comes at different times and some time you play some teams more. No fault of bowler, but whatever tests you play against top team in your peak, you got to make it count. Wasim/Waqar both were outperformed by many bowlers away and some bowlers over all even during their prime. We are not talking about entire career. If you can't outperform others even in your prime, how can you stand out in history and be a contender for the top 5-7 pacers spots?

If you think 14/15 tests were very low, that's 1/3rd of Bumran's entire career and around 1/5th of Mashall's entire career.
How many tests can you expect to play against top teams when you start looking at narrow window of 5 years due to being bowler's prime. I don't think we can say that bowlers need to get 40 tests against top sides and that too in his 5 years of prime. It will happen rarely.


Having said all this, we are talking about top 15 tests pacers here. I include Waqar in that list.
Can you categorize this based on the type of pitches they bowled in ? How about pitch by pitch / ground by ground comparison ? Pak played against SL a lot back then, and most SL pitches were spin friendly, obviously. This is just one example. What if pitches were tailored as highways, just to kill the impact of Wasim and Waqar ? I'm sure Aus, Eng etc would have done this ! Can we compare the bowling AVG of Rifle, McDermott, Fleming, Gough, Caddick etc Vs 2W in the same game ?
 
Should there be different benchmark for greatness for Asian pacers compared to non Asian pacers?

Non Asian or SENA pacers get to bowl to weaker teams at home and cash on cheap wickets. Asian pacers don’t get those cheap wickets in Asian conditions because the conditions are usually dominated by spinners.

We have seen that Bumrah sometimes takes rest from home games and Cummins also sometimes skips a tour to Asia.

I think it will be very hard for Indian, Pak and SL to produce pacers with 300+ test wickets because on home pitches, they won’t easily get 150 test wickets at a rate of 4 WPM.
 
Rohit Sharma during the press conference today:

"We're not sure of Jasprit Bumrah at this stage, so we wanted someone who can take up that role, we picked Arshdeep Singh."

Meanwhile Ajit Agarkar said in same press conference:

"We're waiting on Jasprit Bumrah's fitness and will know his status in early February from BCCI's medical team."
 
Rohit Sharma, while addressing the press conference ahead of the 1st ODI against England:

“We are waiting for some updates on his scan, which are due to happen over the next few days. Once we get that scan report, we will have more clarity in terms of where he stands right now, and if he will be available for the last ODI.”
 
Jasprit Bumrah Is All Set To Start His Rehabilitation At NCA | Champions Trophy 2025 | Bumrah Injury


Star Indian fast bowler Jasprit Bumrah is all set to start his rehabilitation at the National Cricket Academy (NCA) in Bengaluru. According to a report in Times of India on Sunday, the 31-year-old pacer, who last played for India in the fifth Test against Australia at Sydney Cricket Ground from January 3-5, underwent scans recently for his back injury under the watch of BCCI’s medical team. It has been reported that the reports were internally discussed, and now the seamer is likely to start physical activity (like gym, light bowling) in the next 24 to 48 hours.The BCCI is expected to play a waiting game with Bumrah before finally taking a call on his participation in the ICC Champions Trophy 2025, which starts on February 19. The teams are allowed to make changes to their provisional squad for the eight-team ICC event till February 11.


 
Weren't they supposed to confirm today if he will be in the CT or not?
They are desperate to have him in the team and will wait until the last minute to take a call. Even if he is 90% fit they will play him which will be a wrong move IMO. I think Indian team was banking on Shami to fill the void in Bumrah's absence but since he is struggling too with the form, team management wants Bumrah desperately. Indian bowling attack is looking very poor at the moment.
 
They are desperate to have him in the team and will wait until the last minute to take a call. Even if he is 90% fit they will play him which will be a wrong move IMO. I think Indian team was banking on Shami to fill the void in Bumrah's absence but since he is struggling too with the form, team management wants Bumrah desperately. Indian bowling attack is looking very poor at the moment.
Deadline is 12th?
 

Jasprit Bumrah set to miss India's Champions Trophy campaign​


Wow, this is a setback for Ind..
 
They are desperate to have him in the team and will wait until the last minute to take a call. Even if he is 90% fit they will play him which will be a wrong move IMO. I think Indian team was banking on Shami to fill the void in Bumrah's absence but since he is struggling too with the form, team management wants Bumrah desperately. Indian bowling attack is looking very poor at the moment.
He is not ready to Bowl before our last league match against NZ on 2nd March.

Indian team is taking the risks with him if they selected him for the champion trophy .

Better to dropped Jaiswal ( Anyways he is not going to get chance now ) and select Another pacer Harshit rana.

We need four Pacers if Bumrah is selected because he is not going to play in first two matches ( confirmed)

What if one the shami/ Arshdeep feel some uncomfortable before the match than who will be another pacer to replace? No one .

Shami, Arshdeep, Rana and Bumrah Should be four Pacers .

:kp
 
In what is a significant jolt to India, Jasprit Bumrah, their premier fast bowler, is set to miss the 2025 Champions Trophy. ESPNcricinfo has learned that Bumrah is yet to completely recover from the discomfort in his back, an injury he picked up during the Sydney Test in January that also ruled him out of the white-ball series against England.
While the latest scan, which Bumrah underwent in Bengaluru over the weekend, did not reveal anything untoward, it is learned he is not entirely ready to return to bowling yet. His progress will continue to be monitored by the BCCI's medical team based at the Centre of Excellence in Bengaluru. There is no confirmation on the timeline of his return to bowling. It is likely he will resume running in a couple of weeks and then start to bowl gradually after that.
This is the second ICC tournament Bumrah will miss due to injury, having sat out the 2022 T20 World Cup in Australia due to back injury which eventually forced him to have surgery.

The ICC had set February 11 as the deadline for all eight participating teams to submit their final 15 for the Champions Trophy. Any subsequent changes would need to be approved by the tournament's technical committee. Bumrah's replacement is likely to be Harshit Rana, who made his ODI debut during the ongoing England series.
When the BCCI announced the provisional squad for Champions Trophy and the England series in January, Rana was named as Bumrah's back-up for the England ODIs. Rana made his ODI debut in the first ODI of the England series in Nagpur, sharing the new ball with Mohammed Shami. After an impressive start, Phil Salt thrashed Rana for 26 runs in his third over, but the Delhi seamer bounced back picking three wickets to transfer the pressure back on England, which played a key role in the eventual victory for the hosts.

Source : Cricinfo
 
In what is a significant jolt to India, Jasprit Bumrah, their premier fast bowler, is set to miss the 2025 Champions Trophy. ESPNcricinfo has learned that Bumrah is yet to completely recover from the discomfort in his back, an injury he picked up during the Sydney Test in January that also ruled him out of the white-ball series against England.
While the latest scan, which Bumrah underwent in Bengaluru over the weekend, did not reveal anything untoward, it is learned he is not entirely ready to return to bowling yet. His progress will continue to be monitored by the BCCI's medical team based at the Centre of Excellence in Bengaluru. There is no confirmation on the timeline of his return to bowling. It is likely he will resume running in a couple of weeks and then start to bowl gradually after that.
This is the second ICC tournament Bumrah will miss due to injury, having sat out the 2022 T20 World Cup in Australia due to back injury which eventually forced him to have surgery.

The ICC had set February 11 as the deadline for all eight participating teams to submit their final 15 for the Champions Trophy. Any subsequent changes would need to be approved by the tournament's technical committee. Bumrah's replacement is likely to be Harshit Rana, who made his ODI debut during the ongoing England series.
When the BCCI announced the provisional squad for Champions Trophy and the England series in January, Rana was named as Bumrah's back-up for the England ODIs. Rana made his ODI debut in the first ODI of the England series in Nagpur, sharing the new ball with Mohammed Shami. After an impressive start, Phil Salt thrashed Rana for 26 runs in his third over, but the Delhi seamer bounced back picking three wickets to transfer the pressure back on England, which played a key role in the eventual victory for the hosts.

Source : Cricinfo
And there goes whatever little chances we had.
 
It will be fun watching the CT now that I have basically no expectations from my team.
 
While talking to a local Indian media outlet, Mohammad Amir:

"I think, if you talk about fast bowling, Bumrah is a complete package. You make him play Test cricket, he will bowl with the new ball, old ball, semi-new ball. Make him play ODI or any other format, whenever the team needs him in whatever situation, he always delivers. It’s the same in T20Is as well, hence he’s a complete package and should be a role model. I feel Bumrah is the best fast bowler in the world. The rest of the bowlers have a flaw in a particular format. However, Bumrah is the best across all three formats. That’s why he’s the number 1."
 
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