PTI's Tsunami March on 14th August [Mega Thread]

[Fallen King]

Either logic or the English language appears to be a pivotal problem here. Your post makes no sense at all. I've asked you repeatedly to show examples in history where a popular overthrow of government has resulted in a 'dangerous precedent' - in response you ignore this crucial question for your theory and just repeat your statement again. Describing Marshall law also doesn't answer the question I posed. Both situations are when a 'democratic' government is toppled. One you support because you claim it is independent although it will always hand off to civilian rule so in effect is just a transition to another party, and the other is - another party.

Your position is entirely hypocritical and self contradictory.

You are asking for example which can lead to unforseable consequence once PTI's tactics is legalized, currently illegal and unconstitutional, for reasons. Re-read my posts carefully to ponder. All the best.

 

[Vegitto1]

PML-N considering giving tough political time to PTI in KPK after dharnas end.


View attachment 48939



Translation:

Sources indicate that after the anti-center politics by Imran Khan, PML-N and its allies have started considering its stance toward not intervening in the provincial government in KPK, currently being run by PTI. A reliable source in PML-N has told the news that once the dharna ends, government has signaled its allies to adopt "wait and see" policy. Furthermore, government is also evaluating the strength of forward block in PTI. The higher leadership of PML-N has assured that given the forward block of PTI grows amid increasing discontent within PTI and a no-confidence motion is moved again Pervaiz Khattak, PML-N will support the vote. In a recent meeting of Maulana Fazulr Rehman with PM Nawaz, maulana claimed that PTI is using its provincial government for anti centre politics. The majority of leadership in PML-N has started to support Maulana's view that Imran has failed to establish his political acumen in KPK. However, PM Nawaz Sharif has adopted a "Wait and See" policy so far. Sources have also claimed that a majority of PTI's parliamentarians are already in active contact with Maulana and seem to fed up with the behavior of PTI's leadership.


^ This will be interesting once Azardi is ended and PMLN is not toppled, Allahu Alim.

Only difference being that KP government has been the best performing provincial government since May 2013 and people are happy with its performance. They can see the improvements in their daily lives.

Electricity, Price Hikes of food and petrol are all Federal responsibility - hence PML-N is hated at the moment in KPK.

Recent by-election result of PK68 should serve as a wake-up call for those who are wishing for PTI to fail in KPK. People such as [MENTION=10992]MalikMohsin[/MENTION]

 

[Vegitto1]

You are asking for example which can lead to unforseable consequence once PTI's tactics is legalized, currently illegal and unconstitutional, for reasons. Re-read my posts carefully to ponder. All the best.

There is nothing unconstitutional in toppling a government by holding protests.

They have failed to deliver and therefore we are throwing them out.

 

[Sakss]

There is nothing unconstitutional in toppling a government by holding protests.

They have failed to deliver and therefore we are throwing them out.

I think malikmohsin has his own book of constitution

 

[Fallen King]

I think malikmohsin has his own book of constitution

Pakistan Parliament has declared PTI's tactics regarding Azadi march, illegal and unconstitutional. Not me.

I am surprised this is coming from you. Perhap, it is better if you don't indulge in certain topic that you aren't aware of.

I expect immature behavior from [MENTION=1024]Vegitto1[/MENTION] who has been proven liar with evidence to back. So, i don't take him serious of whatever he says. A liar is always a liar.

 

[ehjaz]

MM, MFR, KA, NS,SS and likes of these are perfect angels and rest are just full of flaws..........

 

[the Great Khan]

Cricketing hero’s anti-Sharif campaign is overstepping the mark

Imran Khan was a true cricketing hero for Pakistan. He was an exceptional all-rounder, a graceful batsmen and a formidable fast bowler. But as a politician – seemingly hell-bent on becoming prime minister at whatever cost to his country – he makes a far less edifying spectacle.

rubbish. Ive read plenty of this sort of opinion masquerading as fact. If he wanted to be PM he would be by compromising like everyone else. In Pakistan this is the worst way to become a PM. So the FT should go back and do some research.


Mr Khan has spent the past month camped out in a shipping container next to a parliament whose legitimacy he has questioned in fiery speeches. With Tahirul Qadri, a moderate cleric, he is calling for the resignation of Nawaz Sharif, the prime minister whose election last year marked the first democratic transition in Pakistan’s 67-year history. He has, however, taken his protest too far. In his stubbornness, he threatens to tear the very democratic fabric he claims to be protecting.

Mr Khan may well be right that last year’s elections were marred by irregularities. However, given the easy margin of victory, it is simply not credible to claim that Mr Sharif’s Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz party stole the election. Mr Khan is also right to bemoan the poor performance of the government, which has failed to address a worsening energy crisis and pursued a confused policy towards Pakistan’s terrorism. Mr Sharif, who has been prime minister twice before, appears almost bored with the job, taking long trips abroad and rarely bothering to show up in parliament. None of this, however, justifies Mr Khan’s determination to force Mr Sharif’s resignation and plunge the nuclear-armed country of 200m people into political crisis.

On the contrary the above is just some of the things that justify a peaceful protest and the desire for change. the FT seems to be afraid to see real change in Pakistan and is peddling the "stability at all costs" line from most uninformed western sources. So the Pakistani people should be happy with a "bored" PM as long as the "system" that is evidently corrupt and broken caries on? what a load of nonsense and actually its quite racist if you look at it from another point of view!

Indeed, the campaign has caused significant damage. Xi Jinping, China’s president, cancelled last week’s visit to Islamabad, adding insult to injury by spending an extra day in India, Pakistan’s arch rival. It is not as though Pakistan does not have enough to contend with. In some areas, 20-hour power cuts are the norm. Floods have killed hundreds of people. While the political elites tussle for power, the economy, which had been marginally improving, shows signs of sinking back into malaise.
The stand-off also risks bringing the military back into politics. The army has been able to present itself as a neutral “third force”, a mirage in a country that has been under military rule for almost half of its independent years. Mr Khan has vehemently denied suggestions that he is being manipulated by the military, which is angry with Mr Sharif for pursuing the prosecution of Pervez Musharraf, a former military ruler, and for trying to seize control of foreign policy. Yet Mr Khan’s actions are playing into the hands of those who would bring the whole shaky democratic edifice toppling down.

again the FT ignores the fact that all of the above has nothing to do with Imrans protest. If there wasn't a protest all of the above except the Chinese visit would still have occurred. Who's fault would that be then?

At least Mr Sharif, unlike Mr Khan, has shown some appetite for compromise. He has agreed to several opposition demands, including a judicial inquiry into last year’s election and discussion of electoral reforms. He must not sully this by resorting to arbitrary arrests of opposition forces or violent suppression of demonstrators. Above all, he should concentrate on re-energising his lacklustre government and tackling the country’s urgent problems.


really? firing tear gas, killing over 30 people and then reneging on negotiating the five point agenda is an appetite for compromise? this article has clearly been written by one of those so called analysts that simply have a problem with IK no matter what he does , because they themselves have a stake in the system. And I could name a few one of whom I have known for a long time.

There is much riding on a peaceful resolution of this crisis, and not only for Pakistan. In too many Asian countries, from Afghanistan to Thailand, democracy has been jeopardised when those who contest elections refuse to accept the result. Cynics will argue that this proves many countries in Asia lack the institutional foundations on which to build a stable democracy. There is some truth in this. But what is the alternative? Rule by the military or by unelected technocrats installed by force? It is the duty of Pakistan’s warring political elites to show that democracy can be better than that.


the alternative mr FT is accountability, or re-elections that seem to be ok for "western" democracies but not ok for Pakistan? What a rubbish article. it took me less than a few minutes to pull holes into it, id have wiped out every sentence if I ahd more time. As usual the western press are simple ill equipped to discuss anything about Pakistan. they have no idea about the situation in the country and the situation the population finds itself in.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/bbb645ba-39c3-11e4-93da-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DVOvDjh2

regards

 

[the Great Khan]

Pakistan Parliament has declared PTI's tactics regarding Azadi march, illegal and unconstitutional. Not me.

I am surprised this is coming from you. Perhap, it is better if you don't indulge in certain topic that you aren't aware of.

I expect immature behavior from [MENTION=1024]Vegitto1[/MENTION] who has been proven liar with evidence to back. So, i don't take him serious of whatever he says. A liar is always a liar.

theryre declaration is unconstitutional hence can be simply ignored .

 

[saeedhk]

These clowns loot the public in the name of democracy.

 

[anakin]

I think you guys are big fans of V for Vendetta movie....
Remember the movie ends but life has to go on....

Overthrowing an elected government ... yup very constitutional when you people still have the right to vote, Judiciary is there to safeguard your rights.
But who gives a damn, We are all Afridi fans, We want it all now in one shot.

 

[saadibaba]

Good show by Talat. PTI MNA from Swat stating how she was asked to submit resignations without any discussion, that SMQ told them to do it for media consumption and later he went to the Speaker himself begging him not to accept his resignation. When Speaker asked PTI members to come to his chambers to discuss resignations, no one showed up.

Also stating how PTI is fighting a war for Punjab but not acknowledging KP. There is not even one MNA from KP in the Core Committee. You get an overall sense that she is upset how PTI despite taking its strength from KP is operating based on the dictates of PTI Punjab politicians.

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x260n1g" allowfullscreen></iframe><br /><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x260n1g_live-with-talat-15th-september-2014_news" target="_blank">Live With Talat - 15th September 2014</a> <i>by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/awaztoday-tv" target="_blank">awaztoday-tv</a></i>

 

[saadibaba]

No end to comparisons with Jinnah, now he is even better than Jinnah.

 

[zimmz]

Good show by Talat. PTI MNA from Swat stating how she was asked to submit resignations without any discussion, that SMQ told them to do it for media consumption and later he went to the Speaker himself begging him not to accept his resignation. When Speaker asked PTI members to come to his chambers to discuss resignations, no one showed up.

Also stating how PTI is fighting a war for Punjab but not acknowledging KP. There is not even one MNA from KP in the Core Committee. You get an overall sense that she is upset how PTI despite taking its strength from KP is operating based on the dictates of PTI Punjab politicians.

ONly God knows if she is telling the truth but...

1. If SMQ said anything to speaker then do you think PMLN would kept it secret? Facing political uncertainity, their power at stake, they would have blown the whistle by now, especialy speaker who is at risk of losing his seat as court/ECP has finally allowed the recount/investigation of his seat.

2. Core committee is not formed for MNAs and is not changed post elections. If existing CC member became MNA then how is it his fault for belonging to some xyz province. No sense at all in this argument.

 

[waqar goraya]

Ruin comes when the trader, whose heart is filled up by wealth, becomes ruler or when the general uses his army to establish a military dictatorship - Plato

Story of Pakistan.

 

[saadibaba]

ONly God knows if she is telling the truth but...

1. If SMQ said anything to speaker then do you think PMLN would kept it secret? Facing political uncertainity, their power at stake, they would have blown the whistle by now, especialy speaker who is at risk of losing his seat as court/ECP has finally allowed the recount/investigation of his seat.

2. Core committee is not formed for MNAs and is not changed post elections. If existing CC member became MNA then how is it his fault for belonging to some xyz province. No sense at all in this argument.

I think this rumor has already been out that SMQ asked Speaker not to accept their resignations, I've heard it from pro PML- N journos likely leaked by PML- N, she is just confirming it. They could not have blown it up so much as it would challenge the Speaker's supposed neutrality.

The Core Committee point was a small example of the overall neglect shown by IK and party's main leadership toward PTI's KP members.

Unlike other PTI MNA's who usually come across as belligerent idiots on TV, only there to defend the cult of IK and pledge allegiance to IK's every nonsensical POV, I was actually quite pleasantly surprised by this lady MNA from Swat. She came across as very mature and educated, also belonging to that region for generations, she seemed well versed with the problems of her people and the proper mechanisms of solving them. It's unfortunate to see IK surrounding himself with sycophants and hot headed pseudo-revolutionaries. Those members obviously learned quickly that being blindly faithful to him is the only way to move up the party ladder, while members like her can't even get two minutes of his time.

PTI is lucky to have people like her in their fold. He should listen to them who despite everything are still with IK because they believe in the core message of change through democratic means.

 

[KarachiKing]

Pakistan Parliament has declared PTI's tactics regarding Azadi march, illegal and unconstitutional. Not me.

I am surprised this is coming from you. Perhap, it is better if you don't indulge in certain topic that you aren't aware of.

I expect immature behavior from [MENTION=1024]Vegitto1[/MENTION] who has been proven liar with evidence to back. So, i don't take him serious of whatever he says. A liar is always a liar.

shows how much knowledge you have honestly.

Parliament is not the institution to declare any thing constitutional or unconstitutional

 

[KarachiKing]

I think this rumor has already been out that SMQ asked Speaker not to accept their resignations, I've heard it from pro PML- N journos likely leaked by PML- N, she is just confirming it. They could not have blown it up so much as it would challenge the Speaker's supposed neutrality.

The Core Committee point was a small example of the overall neglect shown by IK and party's main leadership toward PTI's KP members.

Unlike other PTI MNA's who usually come across as belligerent idiots on TV, only there to defend the cult of IK and pledge allegiance to IK's every nonsensical POV, I was actually quite pleasantly surprised by this lady MNA from Swat. She came across as very mature and educated, also belonging to that region for generations, she seemed well versed with the problems of her people and the proper mechanisms of solving them. It's unfortunate to see IK surrounding himself with sycophants and hot headed pseudo-revolutionaries. Those members obviously learned quickly that being blindly faithful to him is the only way to move up the party ladder, while members like her can't even get two minutes of his time.

PTI is lucky to have people like her in their fold. He should listen to them who despite everything are still with IK because they believe in the core message of change through democratic means.

your post would be good and would make a lot of sense if you knew how the core committee was formed in the first place. But unfortunately you talk about matters you are clueless about. Many of the MNA's from KP are first time parliamentarians and IK and PTI should be acknowledged for the fact that they handed out tickets to political unknowns. And as obviously they were unknowns political entities when the Core committee was elected, they could not become part of it

 

[saadibaba]

your post would be good and would make a lot of sense if you knew how the core committee was formed in the first place. But unfortunately you talk about matters you are clueless about. Many of the MNA's from KP are first time parliamentarians and IK and PTI should be acknowledged for the fact that they handed out tickets to political unknowns. And as obviously they were unknowns political entities when the Core committee was elected, they could not become part of it

So only known and old political entities can become part of the core committee? Your post actually furthers my point. Ironically, the clueless comment has landed right back on your face. Just read the part in bold a few more times and try to get a clue of what I was saying.

 

[blinding light]

All the analysis, breaking down reputed articles, biased journalism in any/everyone's favour aside.

This was part of my first reading on an advanced political philosophy course I was forced to take because of an unprecipitated enrollment crisis. 2 pages into my reading, and this is what I come across:

Immanuel Kant 1784
An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment?


But that a public should enlighten itself is more possible; indeed this is almost inevitable, if only it is left its freedom. For there will always be a few independent thinkers, even among the established guardians of the great masses, who, after having themselves cast off the yoke of minority, will disseminate the spirit of a rational valuing of one’s own worth and of the calling of each individual to think for himself. What should be noted here is that the public, which was previously put under this yoke by the guardians, may subsequently itself compel them to remain under it, if the public is suitably stirred up by some of its guardians who are themselves incapable of any enlightenment; so harmful is it to implant prejudices, because they finally take their revenge on the very people who, or whose predecessors, were their authors. Thus a public can achieve enlightenment only slowly. A revolution may well bring about a failing off of personal despotism and of avaricious or tyrannical oppression, but never a true reform in one’s way of thinking; instead new prejudices will serve just as well as old ones to harness the great unthinking masses.

Can be interpreted in many a ways, pro-PTI and pro-PMLN, whathaveyou - but I personally find these words to hold a lot of truth.

 

[saadibaba]

Chalo ji....even Ayaz Amir has given up on the "revolution"

Bozos who make morons look good


Ayaz Amir
Tuesday, September 16, 2014

There’s something like too much of a good thing. Have the twin bozos of the Reverend Qadri and Imran Khan – for this is the title their over-stretched antics are earning for them – not heard of the law of diminishing returns? Do they understand anything of what boredom means, of what fatigue implies? The best play in the world palls if it goes on for too long. And God knows this is not the best play in the world.

There is a critical moment in everything, in love as in war. Or how the Bard puts it: of there being a tide in the affairs of men, etc. For whatever reason – and we may search for the reason long and hard in the archives of half-cocked conspiracies – the tide has ebbed for the assault on Islamabad. Any leader who claims for himself the mantle of leadership should know when the decisive moment has passed, owing this as much to himself as to his followers.

The twin shows in Islamabad are now more than anything else an exercise in extended boredom. Imran Khan had precious little to say even in the beginning. He has nothing whatsoever to say now. He has been blessed with many gifts by his good fairies but the power of speaking, alas, is not amongst them.

The Reverend is an outstanding orator. But as the days pass and he goes through his evening speaking routine it is all too obvious that he is on increasingly thin ground and he too has very little to say. And he has started gesticulating more and raising both his arms, which is his habit, more than is normal with him.

The Allama is an intelligent and sharp man, smarter than most other men in the political arena today. He has much going for him but having gained much in stature why is he now bent on reducing it?

Every military fool who has read nothing else is familiar with the adage ‘don’t reinforce failure’. Imran and Qadri are now reinforcing failure and the way they are going about it, with their repetitive speeches, they are coming across as fools in their own right. And such fools that they make the Sharifs look good.

What has also helped the Sharif cause is that Pervaiz Rasheed while not wholly quiet – it would take a miracle for him to be that – is not as voluble as before. And Saad Rafique is not shooting from the hip and Khawaja Asif is not letting fly his verbal rockets which like Porus’ proverbial elephants were always more destructive for his own side. But low ministerial volume apart, the twin bozos now qualify as the government’s hidden assets.

D Square, our version of Tahrir Square, was first an emblem of hope, at least for the optimists who yearned for some sort of creative disorder, even if it meant smudging that sacred document called the constitution. Then as the days lengthened into weeks and the weeks into something longer, the hope became a distraction. Now it is a downright nuisance. But trust Imran and Qadri not to see it. Trust them not to see what is obvious to most other people.

If azadi means Imran’s speeches we can keep azadi in a locked-up cupboard for some more time. And if the Reverend’s ranting – the last time I listened it sounded very much like ranting, a professor trying extra hard to make a point – is revolution, doubts are bound to be raised about the usefulness of revolution.

Why can’t our two geniuses get this into their minds? Recognising failure is not a failure of leadership. If anything, it is a mark of leadership, to be so strong in your conviction that you can say in plain words that we played for high stakes but because of circumstances not in our control we have lost. Nonetheless, we have gained valuable experience. Having passed through fire we are the tougher for it, our steel more tempered, our courage more assured, our determination no less than before. We have come to recognise our strengths and weaknesses…let us redouble our strength and remove our weaknesses. Let us prepare ourselves for the trials that yet await us.

If they turn their minds to the next elections, if they start preparing for them now, they – along with their Sunni Ittehad and Wahdatul Muslimeen allies – can become a power in the land, or at least in Punjab. Will that be a small achievement? Which other party has such dedicated workers? The MQM certainly which has a mass base in Karachi and Hyderabad and a tight-knit organisation. The Jamaat-e-Islami but on a much smaller scale. That’s all. On such a foundation a strong political alliance can be built.

There’s a political vacuum in the country, the PML-N leadership protecting their vast political and commercial interests in Punjab and the PPP leadership protecting their equally vast political and commercial interests in Sindh. Where will the alternative come from? This is the chance for Qadri and Imran (provided the Reverend doesn’t skip off to Canada). They were hoping for a shortcut. That hasn’t occurred. Now lies the challenge for the long haul. Are they up to it?

Qadri and Imran were able to attract only limited crowds on Constitution Avenue, nothing on the scale of the Arab Spring. But what of that? Is it a small thing that PAT and PTI crowds have proved their toughness and endurance, especially PAT workers whose discipline and organisation have to be admired? The least these workers and partisans deserve is honesty. Whether Qadri and Imran were clear about their aims, whether they had thought through the venture upon which they were embarking, whether they were the authors of their purpose or there were other tutors…these will remain items for debate and discussion. But one thing is clear that the venture has failed.

Whether it was built on false assumptions is beside the point. The principal thing is that it has failed. The PML-N government has not been toppled. Nawaz Sharif is still prime minister while the Reverend and the Captain are out there giving their increasingly lacklustre speeches. No excuses are needed for calling off the dharnas, no excuse of floods or anything else – none of this nonsense about an exit strategy – just a statement of aims and objectives and then a frank admission of failure.

Fidel Castro launched on attack on the Moncada army barracks near Santiago in 1953. The attack was a failure and Castro was arrested. In court he declared, “History will absolve me”. The Cuban revolution succeeded in 1959 when the revolutionary forces led by Castro toppled Batista from power. Hugo Chavez launched a military adventure when he was a serving colonel in the Venezuelan army. He was arrested and spent time in prison. He later founded a political movement at whose head he came to power when elected president of Venezuela.

Far be it from me to suggest any resemblance, even the slightest, between our jokers and those heroes. (To keep things in perspective it should be noted that while Chavez stands in the minor or rear ranks of revolutionaries, the great Fidel stands tall in the first ranks.) Those historical parallels are drawn only to make the point that a setback is not the end of the road. (In Lawrence College in my time we used to have academic champions for whom it was not unusual to spend three or four years in one class. With them it was a favourite motto: “Failures are the grand pillars of success.”)

By the way, what does one say of a country the central square of whose capital is called D Square? If such is our imagination then perhaps it is entirely appropriate that we have morons for leaders and bozos dressed up in the robes of revolution.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9-273032-Bozos-who-make-morons-look-good

 

[KarachiKing]

So only known and old political entities can become part of the core committee? Your post actually furthers my point. Ironically, the clueless comment has landed right back on your face. Just read the part in bold a few more times and try to get a clue of what I was saying.

)

Stop trying to win an argument when you can't.

The core committee is elected and hence chosen by the people. People will vote for who they know can perform and is not corrupt and as it is not a general election you are not voting a ticket but an individual.

There is no favoritsm and neither is it a family limited partnership like PPP and PML-N. How about this 'landing back on your face.

 

[ehjaz]

Who is more richer, NS or AZ?

 

[Fallen King]

Addressing the National Assembly, Nawaz Sharif says there should be no compromise on supremacy of constitution.

Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif has said that democracy will continue to function and flourish in the country and nobody will be allowed to impede this process.

Speaking in the National Assembly on Wednesday amidst the thumping of desks by the members of the House, he expressed the resolve to uphold the rule of law and constitution for a bright future of the country.

The Prime Minister thanked the political parties for unanimously passing a resolution in support of democracy and the constitution. He said this demonstration by the parties is unprecedented and will be remembered in the history of the country.

He said the Prime Ministers and the governments come and go but it was actually the triumph of the ideology and the democracy that the political parties put their weight behind the continuation of the system.

He also thanked other segments of the society including intellectuals, lawyers, traders and minorities for supporting this cause. He assured that he will abide by the constitution at all costs and live up to the sentiments of the people.

He reminded that in 2008 elections, his nomination papers were rejected and he was not allowed to contest the elections. But still his party took part in them and did not create any obstacles in the way of the system and the PPP government completed its five year tenure.

He said following 2013 elections Imran Khan assured him to play the role of a constructive opposition while supporting the government in all its positive initiatives. He said we also wanted to work together for the resolution of problems faced by the country.

It was under this spirit that he went to Bani Gala residence of Imran Khan where the PTI Chairman again assured him of his support. He said the government should be held accountable for its acts but the opposition parties should also back the government's good initiatives.

Nawaz Sharif said that a thirty three member electoral reforms committee has already been formed to bring reforms in the electoral process. He said now it is the responsibility of the political parties to give their inputs to make the electoral process more transparent.

Referring to the protest of PTI and PAT, Nawaz Sharif said this agitation has dented the economy with stock exchange and rupees witnessing serious downfall. The current circumstances have shattered the confidence of the businessmen and they have shown their concerns that how could they invest their money in the prevailing situation.

He however said that march towards development will be continued with more serious and concerted efforts. He said it is utmost desire of the government to provide all basic amenities of life to the people and alleviate unemployment and poverty.

We have laid the foundation to achieve these targets but these cannot be achieved overnight. He said several projects are in the pipelines to overcome the electricity shortfall. These include Dasu and Diamer Bhasha hydel projects and coal based projects at Gaddani and Port Qasim.

He said fifty five billion rupees have been released for the accusation of land for Karachi Lahore motorway project. Similarly there are revolutionary plans to develop Gwadar port and Balochistan province. He said we should refrain from negative politics to keep the economy on the right track.

The house will now meet tomorrow morning at 11.

http://radio.gov.pk/newsdetail/70354/1


^ Good news about electoral reformative being considered.

 

[saadibaba]

)

Stop trying to win an argument when you can't.

The core committee is elected and hence chosen by the people. People will vote for who they know can perform and is not corrupt and as it is not a general election you are not voting a ticket but an individual.

There is no favoritsm and neither is it a family limited partnership like PPP and PML-N. How about this 'landing back on your face.

Elected by whom? Can you tell me who the members of the core committee are and how they got elected. A link to a page detailing that would be helpful. I'm just unable to find that myself so I will reserve my judgments till you can find me that info.

 

[Fallen King]

theryre declaration is unconstitutional hence can be simply ignored .

Fair enough. But the reasons behind this declaration does carry heavy weight. There has been mentioned about setting dangerous precedent in the future which explains why Pakistan Parliament had to declare unconstitutional and illegal. In my opinion, Pakistan Parliament has strong point.

 

[KarachiKing]

Elected by whom? Can you tell me who the members of the core committee are and how they got elected. A link to a page detailing that would be helpful. I'm just unable to find that myself so I will reserve my judgments till you can find me that info.

Google 'PTI Central Executive Committee elections.' Learn how to use it. Helps for other things too

Apart from Secretary Information and Head of Social Media, which are confirmed by the CEC itself, the rest of the members were elected in an intra party election before the general elections last year. Hashmi, Qureishi, Swati, Mazari, Asad Umar and the provincial presidents were all elected in these elections.

Also there is a 2 term limit to being chairman unlike some parties where the chairman is elected unopposed as 'Chairman for life.'

 

[Fallen King]

shows how much knowledge you have honestly.

Parliament is not the institution to declare any thing constitutional or unconstitutional

If you don't consider Pakistan Parliament as worthy to be institution to declare unconstitutional or constitutional. Then, why are you worried? I don't understand why people overreact then. Pakistan Parliament as institution has declared PTI's tactics regarding Azadi march as unconstitutional and illegal which shouldn't faze PTI and its supporters at all.

 

[KarachiKing]

If you don't consider Pakistan Parliament as worthy to be institution to declare unconstitutional or constitutional. Then, why are you worried? I don't understand why people overreact then. Pakistan Parliament as institution has declared PTI's tactics regarding Azadi march as unconstitutional and illegal which shouldn't faze PTI and its supporters at all.

I'll repeat again that this shows how much you know about or understand the Pakistani political system or any other political system.

Parliament does not have the authority to declare anything constitutional or unconstitutional. At most it is allowed to debate about it.

The sole power to declare any act as unconstitutional rests with the Supreme Court. Learn a bit about the political system before acting like you are an expert on it.

 

[Fallen King]

I'll repeat again that this shows how much you know about or understand the Pakistani political system or any other political system.

Parliament does not have the authority to declare anything constitutional or unconstitutional. At most it is allowed to debate about it.

The sole power to declare any act as unconstitutional rests with the Supreme Court. Learn a bit about the political system before acting like you are an expert on it.

Pakistan Parliament already declared unconstitutional and illegal. Past tense

PMLN has support from Pakistan Parliament including opposition parties barring PTI. That's why PMLN is arresting anyone partaking Azadi march under the pretense of unconstitutional and illegal declared by Pakistan Parliament. That being said, Pakistan Parliament may not carry the weight, but that's all PMLN needs to justify its move regarding ordering arrests and whatnot.

 

[KarachiKing]

Pakistan Parliament already declared unconstitutional and illegal. Past tense

PMLN has support from Pakistan Parliament including opposition parties barring PTI. That's why PMLN is arresting anyone partaking Azadi march under the pretense of unconstitutional and illegal declared by Pakistan Parliament. That being said, Pakistan Parliament may not carry the weight, but that's all PMLN needs to justify its move regarding ordering arrests and whatnot.

I feel like we are going around in circles.

But I'll try again. The Pakistani parliament does not have the constitutional authority to declare any act or event as unconstitutional which is why the government was forced to release PAT and PTI workers after arresting them because the High Court ruled that they should be released. It is once again the government overreaching and extending its authority beyond what the constitution allows it to and hence why this system is declared, rightly or wrongly, as 'badshahat' instead of democracy.

 

[Indiafan]

There is nothing unconstitutional in toppling a government by holding protests.

They have failed to deliver and therefore we are throwing them out.

Failed to deliver in not even one year of rule. And then throwing that government out and that government and that government. Keep on throwing them out instead of voting them out and the power of your vote, already down because of corruption and rigging, won't even be worth a penny

 

[anakin]

I feel like we are going around in circles.

But I'll try again. The Pakistani parliament does not have the constitutional authority to declare any act or event as unconstitutional which is why the government was forced to release PAT and PTI workers after arresting them because the High Court ruled that they should be released. It is once again the government overreaching and extending its authority beyond what the constitution allows it to and hence why this system is declared, rightly or wrongly, as 'badshahat' instead of democracy.

I am not in know of the laws of Pakistan... but I agree with you.
Legislature cannot declare something unconstitutional, they can make/amend laws.
Its the judiciary that judges on the legality of events, while the executive carries out the governance.

Legislature can denounce the protest as unconstitutional, but their declaration as such has no legal standing unless they create a law claiming so.
Then also, it will be judiciary who can judge upon the legality not the legislature.

 

[Fallen King]

PTI, PAT demands unconstitutional, SC told


ISLAMABAD: The government on Tuesday said the demands made by the chairmen of PTI and PAT not only unconstitutional but were rather issued as intimidation and threats, intended to cause total shutdown of normal life in the country and of the functioning of the federal government in general.



The Federation filed a concise statement before the Supreme Court through Deputy Attorney General Sajid Ilyas Bhatti in the petition filed by Supreme Court Bar Association (SCBA) seeking Supreme Court’s direction that no authority or state functionaries be allowed to take any extra-constitutional steps in the prevailing political situation of the country.



It contended that the regrettable speech of PTI Chief Imran Khan and the launching of civil disobedience movement by a political party which has been registered under the laws of Pakistan (Political Parties Ordinance Order 2002) read with the Constitution is predominantly against the integrity, sovereignty and security of Pakistan and is a clear violation of Articles 4, 5, 7 and the oath of the members of Provincial and National Assemblies as prescribed under the Third Schedule of the Constitution.



A five-member larger bench of the apex court, headed by Chief Justice Nasir ul Mulk and comprising Justice Jawad S Khawaja, Justice Anwar Zaheer Jamali, Justice Mian Saqib Nisar and Justice Asif Saeed Khan Khosa, asked the attorney general the other day to submit concise statement on behalf of the federation in the instant matter.



Kamran Murtaza, president Supreme Court Bar Association, has filed a petition in the apex court contending that, in view the prevailing political situation of the country, there is reasonable apprehension that some one from the state functionaries or administrative heads or having constitutional responsibilities may deviate from the Constitution of Pakistan and take the law in hand to derail the democratic system of the country.



On Monday he filed additional application requesting the court to ask the political parties not to enter the Red Zone.On August 15 the court after issued an interim order restraining all the state authorities and functionaries from acting in any manner unwarranted by the Constitution and the law.



The federation contended that the chairman, PTI and PAT gave a call for long/inqilab/azadi marches towards Islamabad for August 14, 2014, the Independence Day of Pakistan. “The declared objectives of the said long/azadi/inqilab march were to force the federal government to resign and also to seek the dissolution of the National Assembly, the provincial assemblies and the Election Commission of Pakistan”, the federation submitted. .



The federation informed the apex court that the PTI and its chairman earlier made several demands including the appointment of a commission comprising of the judges of this court to look into the allegations leveled by them.



However, before the launching of the proposed long march, PTI and its chairman changed their stance and called for, inter-alia, the resignation of the federal government as well as of the provincial government of the Punjab without due process of law.



“Such demands were ex-facie unconstitutional and illegal. It is also important to mention here that the sole grievance of PTI related to the alleged malpractices in the general elections, held on 11 May 2013 for which PTI and Imran Khan maligned all the state institutions, including the judiciary, the federation submitted”.



It contended that the demands made by the chairmen of PTI and PAT were not only unconstitutional but were rather issued as intimidation and threats, intended to cause total shutdown of normal life in the country and of the functioning of the federal government in general.



The federation submitted that practically due to dharna, life and property of the residents of Islamabad have come under a serious imminent danger. The whole gamut of daily life is being brought to a standstill by such processions/dharnas which are still continuing since 13th August, 2014”, the concise statement contended.



It added that the availability of basic necessities including food items and other things essential for life is becoming increasingly difficult, as most of the people have been besieged in their own houses.



“It is but certain that the fundamental rights of the people at large, guaranteed under Articles 9 and 18 of the Constitution, have been, and are continuing to be violated”, says the federation.



It submitted that the illegal and subversive activities of those political parties such as strikes, processions and dharnas have caused uncertainty with resultant financial loss of over Rs400 billion in the stock market. Public property worth millions of rupees has been destroyed by the workers of PTI and PAT, despite repeated express verbal and written assurances given by the leaders of these political parties for carrying out peaceful marches.



The federation submitted that it is the fundamental and constitutional duty of the federal government to protect the life and property of the people and to save the residents of Islamabad and diplomatic communities residing inside the Red Zone.



It stated that the current situation threatens the existence of public order, supplies and services. In this respect, it is also submitted that the term “public order” occurring in sub-Article (1) of Article 17, as it is separately used, has to be construed in the ordinary context as being synonymous with public peace, safety and tranquility. Public order is an elemental need in any organised society and no association can flourish in a state of disorder.



The federation contended that the petitioner’s apprehensions relating to violation of the fundamental rights of the people at large and the affected areas in the particular areas (by the local traders and business community) due to the long/azadi/inqilab marches and dharnas having unconstitutional and illegal object, have been accentuated by the declared pronouncement by the PTI and PAT leaders about entering into the Red Zone and civil disobedience movement, thereby raising important questions of great pubic importance qua the interpretation of Constitution and the law which require a determination by the Honourable Court. The larger bench will resume hearing today (Wednesday) in the instant matter.


http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-268095-PTI-PAT-demands-unconstitutional-SC-told

^ This article released on August 20th, 2014. This should clear some of confusions, but that doesn't explain specific details about how that declaration came to pass, Allahu Alim.

 

[Fallen King]

I feel like we are going around in circles.

But I'll try again. The Pakistani parliament does not have the constitutional authority to declare any act or event as unconstitutional which is why the government was forced to release PAT and PTI workers after arresting them because the High Court ruled that they should be released. It is once again the government overreaching and extending its authority beyond what the constitution allows it to and hence why this system is declared, rightly or wrongly, as 'badshahat' instead of democracy.

We have two sides of the story; One that has no authority to label constitutional or unconstitutional, thus the arrested one that partaked in Azadi march has been unarrested and the other one where it has already declared its decision, albeit thin reputation, that may not carry the weight, but under that pretense, PMLN ordered the arrest and whatnot.

 

[KarachiKing]

PTI, PAT demands unconstitutional, SC told


ISLAMABAD: The government on Tuesday said the demands made by the chairmen of PTI and PAT not only unconstitutional but were rather issued as intimidation and threats, intended to cause total shutdown of normal life in the country and of the functioning of the federal government in general.



The Federation filed a concise statement before the Supreme Court through Deputy Attorney General Sajid Ilyas Bhatti in the petition filed by Supreme Court Bar Association (SCBA) seeking Supreme Court’s direction that no authority or state functionaries be allowed to take any extra-constitutional steps in the prevailing political situation of the country.



It contended that the regrettable speech of PTI Chief Imran Khan and the launching of civil disobedience movement by a political party which has been registered under the laws of Pakistan (Political Parties Ordinance Order 2002) read with the Constitution is predominantly against the integrity, sovereignty and security of Pakistan and is a clear violation of Articles 4, 5, 7 and the oath of the members of Provincial and National Assemblies as prescribed under the Third Schedule of the Constitution.



A five-member larger bench of the apex court, headed by Chief Justice Nasir ul Mulk and comprising Justice Jawad S Khawaja, Justice Anwar Zaheer Jamali, Justice Mian Saqib Nisar and Justice Asif Saeed Khan Khosa, asked the attorney general the other day to submit concise statement on behalf of the federation in the instant matter.



Kamran Murtaza, president Supreme Court Bar Association, has filed a petition in the apex court contending that, in view the prevailing political situation of the country, there is reasonable apprehension that some one from the state functionaries or administrative heads or having constitutional responsibilities may deviate from the Constitution of Pakistan and take the law in hand to derail the democratic system of the country.



On Monday he filed additional application requesting the court to ask the political parties not to enter the Red Zone.On August 15 the court after issued an interim order restraining all the state authorities and functionaries from acting in any manner unwarranted by the Constitution and the law.



The federation contended that the chairman, PTI and PAT gave a call for long/inqilab/azadi marches towards Islamabad for August 14, 2014, the Independence Day of Pakistan. “The declared objectives of the said long/azadi/inqilab march were to force the federal government to resign and also to seek the dissolution of the National Assembly, the provincial assemblies and the Election Commission of Pakistan”, the federation submitted. .



The federation informed the apex court that the PTI and its chairman earlier made several demands including the appointment of a commission comprising of the judges of this court to look into the allegations leveled by them.



However, before the launching of the proposed long march, PTI and its chairman changed their stance and called for, inter-alia, the resignation of the federal government as well as of the provincial government of the Punjab without due process of law.



“Such demands were ex-facie unconstitutional and illegal. It is also important to mention here that the sole grievance of PTI related to the alleged malpractices in the general elections, held on 11 May 2013 for which PTI and Imran Khan maligned all the state institutions, including the judiciary, the federation submitted”.



It contended that the demands made by the chairmen of PTI and PAT were not only unconstitutional but were rather issued as intimidation and threats, intended to cause total shutdown of normal life in the country and of the functioning of the federal government in general.



The federation submitted that practically due to dharna, life and property of the residents of Islamabad have come under a serious imminent danger. The whole gamut of daily life is being brought to a standstill by such processions/dharnas which are still continuing since 13th August, 2014”, the concise statement contended.



It added that the availability of basic necessities including food items and other things essential for life is becoming increasingly difficult, as most of the people have been besieged in their own houses.



“It is but certain that the fundamental rights of the people at large, guaranteed under Articles 9 and 18 of the Constitution, have been, and are continuing to be violated”, says the federation.



It submitted that the illegal and subversive activities of those political parties such as strikes, processions and dharnas have caused uncertainty with resultant financial loss of over Rs400 billion in the stock market. Public property worth millions of rupees has been destroyed by the workers of PTI and PAT, despite repeated express verbal and written assurances given by the leaders of these political parties for carrying out peaceful marches.



The federation submitted that it is the fundamental and constitutional duty of the federal government to protect the life and property of the people and to save the residents of Islamabad and diplomatic communities residing inside the Red Zone.



It stated that the current situation threatens the existence of public order, supplies and services. In this respect, it is also submitted that the term “public order” occurring in sub-Article (1) of Article 17, as it is separately used, has to be construed in the ordinary context as being synonymous with public peace, safety and tranquility. Public order is an elemental need in any organised society and no association can flourish in a state of disorder.



The federation contended that the petitioner’s apprehensions relating to violation of the fundamental rights of the people at large and the affected areas in the particular areas (by the local traders and business community) due to the long/azadi/inqilab marches and dharnas having unconstitutional and illegal object, have been accentuated by the declared pronouncement by the PTI and PAT leaders about entering into the Red Zone and civil disobedience movement, thereby raising important questions of great pubic importance qua the interpretation of Constitution and the law which require a determination by the Honourable Court. The larger bench will resume hearing today (Wednesday) in the instant matter.


http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-268095-PTI-PAT-demands-unconstitutional-SC-told

^ This article released on August 20th, 2014. This should clear some of confusions, but that doesn't explain specific details about how that declaration came to passed, Allahu Alim.

I feel like I am talking to a wall, Allahu Alim!

The fed govt. has submitted a petition claiming the dharna to be unconstitutional and then the SC will decide about whether its constitutional or not. Which support my point that the Parliament CANNOT declare any act unconstitutional

 

[Fallen King]

Unconstitutional, illegal demands cannot be accepted: Nawaz
http://www.juancole.com/news/the-dawn/2014/09/unconstitutional-illegal-accepted

Balochistan Assembly passes resolution against PTI, PAT

The resolution reads, “This representative house of Balochistan province expresses its deep concern over the situation emerging in the federal capital caused by the sit-ins and unconstitutional and illegal demands by Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf and Pakistan Awami Tehreek and terms it a conspiracy against the Constitution of the country, democratic system and masses”.

http://www.aaj.tv/2014/08/balochistan-assembly-passes-resolution-against-pti-pat/


‘Go Nawaz Go’ slogans provoke PM to order action against PTI, PAT

“All constitutional and legal demands of PTI and PAT have been discussed and the government is ready to pay heed to the demands but will not accede to the unconstitutional and illegal demands,” the PM reportedly said.

Political impasse: Cabinet says no to ‘illegal’ demand
http://tribune.com.pk/story/761672/political-impasse-cabinet-says-no-to-illegal-demand/


Shah for not bowing to unconstitutional demands of PTI, PAT

He reiterated that the opposition parties would firmly adhere to the resolution unanimously adopted by the House pledging supremacy of the Parliament and upholding the constitution.

http://www.aaj.tv/2014/08/shah-for-not-bowing-to-unconstitutional-demands-of-pti-pat/

LHC declares Imran Khan and Tahirul Qadri's demands unconstitutional

The detailed verdict says that PTI Chairman Imran Khan’s demands are unconstitutional. It says that demanding resignation from the Prime Minister, dissolution of federal and provincial assemblies, reformation of the Election Commission of Pakistan (ECP) and establishment of technocrats’ government are illegal.

http://dunyanews.tv/index.php/en/Pakistan/232562-LHC-declares-Imran-Khan-and-Tahirul-Qadris-demand


Fazl terms PTI, PAT demands unconstitutional

Talking to media outside the Parliament House he said, "All the political parties in parliament are unanimous that Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif should not resign from premiership."

He said the national assembly had rejected the unconstitutional demands from PTI and PAT for the resignation of the Prime Minister and the dissolution of the assemblies.

http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/22-Aug-2014/fazl-terms-pti-pat-demands-unconstitutional

NA terms PM resignation demand unconstitutional

The resolution stated that the parliament completely rejects unconstitutional measures.

The demand for prime minister’s resignation is unconstitutional, the resolution’s draft added.

http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/21-Aug-2014/na-terms-pm-s-resignation-demand-unconstitutional


No unconstitutional change will come in Pakistan now: Ex-CJ

He said that those desirous of unconstitutional changes in the country should change their mindset.

http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/01-Aug-2014/no-unconstitutional-change-will-come-in-pakistan-now-ex-cj


SBC to boycott court proceedings today in support of democracy, parliament

Mehmood, while strongly criticising the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) Chairman Imran Khan and Pakistan Awami Tehreek (PAT) chief Tahirul Qadri "for making illogical demands" said that there was no constitutional way to meet their illegal demands.

He said that in presence of a proper parliamentary system, the government cannot be ousted from power through a display of street power. He declared that if any unconstitutional step was taken under the garb of a showdown between the governments and both parties, the legal fraternity would resist it with full might and observe a boycott of court proceedings for an indefinite period besides staging protest demonstrations.

http://paktribune.com/news/SBC-to-b...n-support-of-democracy-parliament-270992.html


^ I can post more examples, but how did that declaration come to pass?

 

[anakin]

Unconstitutional, illegal demands cannot be accepted: Nawaz
http://www.juancole.com/news/the-dawn/2014/09/unconstitutional-illegal-accepted

Balochistan Assembly passes resolution against PTI, PAT

http://www.aaj.tv/2014/08/balochistan-assembly-passes-resolution-against-pti-pat/


‘Go Nawaz Go’ slogans provoke PM to order action against PTI, PAT



Political impasse: Cabinet says no to ‘illegal’ demand
http://tribune.com.pk/story/761672/political-impasse-cabinet-says-no-to-illegal-demand/


Shah for not bowing to unconstitutional demands of PTI, PAT

http://www.aaj.tv/2014/08/shah-for-not-bowing-to-unconstitutional-demands-of-pti-pat/

LHC declares Imran Khan and Tahirul Qadri's demands unconstitutional

http://dunyanews.tv/index.php/en/Pakistan/232562-LHC-declares-Imran-Khan-and-Tahirul-Qadris-demand


Fazl terms PTI, PAT demands unconstitutional



http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/22-Aug-2014/fazl-terms-pti-pat-demands-unconstitutional

NA terms PM resignation demand unconstitutional

http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/21-Aug-2014/na-terms-pm-s-resignation-demand-unconstitutional


No unconstitutional change will come in Pakistan now: Ex-CJ

http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/01-Aug-2014/no-unconstitutional-change-will-come-in-pakistan-now-ex-cj


SBC to boycott court proceedings today in support of democracy, parliament

http://paktribune.com/news/SBC-to-b...n-support-of-democracy-parliament-270992.html


^ I can post more examples, but how did that declaration come to pass?

The Legislature has every right to pass resolution and "term" something "unconstitutional" if they feel so.
If someone feels that this resolution is not fair/illegal/unconstitional... there is Judiciary to sort it out.

Legislature, if it passes a resolution, it can declare anything within the bounds of Constitution.
The legality of Resolution can be challenged by the Courts.

PS: to be fair, some demands of IK are illegal and unconstitutional. He is resorting to street justice, and ignoring path available of judicial recourse.

 

[saadibaba]

Google 'PTI Central Executive Committee elections.' Learn how to use it. Helps for other things too

Apart from Secretary Information and Head of Social Media, which are confirmed by the CEC itself, the rest of the members were elected in an intra party election before the general elections last year. Hashmi, Qureishi, Swati, Mazari, Asad Umar and the provincial presidents were all elected in these elections.

Also there is a 2 term limit to being chairman unlike some parties where the chairman is elected unopposed as 'Chairman for life.'

"Learn how to use google" is that all you have. Lol. Seriously, you couldn't dig up one link for me on how the "Core Committee" is elected. My heart pains me to say it but someone should tell you before you embarrass yourself even further, ahem...you seem to suffer from a severe lack of comprehension skills. I'm asking about "Core Committee" not "Central Executive Committee" mere laal. And since I clearly don't know how to use google maybe you can now look up for me how the "Core Committee" gets elected. Last time I checked back in April this year, three new members were added to the (once again) "Core Committee" based on Chairman's recommendations and not through some election. Please also shed some light on those appointment if you can.

http://www.insaf.pk/news/general-news/item/1787933-three-new-members-notified-to-pti-core-committee

I remember seeing this in the news few months back. Had to "google" them up (pardon the pun). This former PTI guy has now formed his own version of 'Aam Aadmi Party'. This among other issues were the reasons for his resignation.


"Randhawa called for dissolution of the PTI’s core committee being an unconstitutional body and all its decisions taken so far be reversed, particularly the one which removed the elected bodies of PTI Balochistan at the behest of what he alleged mafia.

The disgruntled party activist emphasised that a 15-member core committee be formed after getting it elected by the Central Executive Committee through a secret ballot."

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-29024-Randhawa-quits-as-PTIs-deputy-information-secretary



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[KarachiKing]

"Learn how to use google" is that all you have. Lol. Seriously, you couldn't dig up one link for me on how the "Core Committee" is elected. My heart pains me to say it but someone should tell you before you embarrass yourself even further, ahem...you seem to suffer from a severe lack of comprehension skills. I'm asking about "Core Committee" not "Central Executive Committee" mere laal. And since I clearly don't know how to use google maybe you can now look up for me how the "Core Committee" gets elected. Last time I checked back in April this year, three new members were added to the (once again) "Core Committee" based on Chairman's recommendations and not through some election. Please also shed some light on those appointment if you can.

http://www.insaf.pk/news/general-news/item/1787933-three-new-members-notified-to-pti-core-committee

I remember seeing this in the news few months back. Had to "google" them up (pardon the pun). This former PTI guy has now formed his own version of 'Aam Aadmi Party'. This among other issues were the reasons for his resignation.


"Randhawa called for dissolution of the PTI’s core committee being an unconstitutional body and all its decisions taken so far be reversed, particularly the one which removed the elected bodies of PTI Balochistan at the behest of what he alleged mafia.

The disgruntled party activist emphasised that a 15-member core committee be formed after getting it elected by the Central Executive Committee through a secret ballot."

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-29024-Randhawa-quits-as-PTIs-deputy-information-secretary



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The elected CEC in consultation with the Chairman decide on the Core Committee whose members, in most cases, are elected to the CEC aswell. Its an indirectly elected body as elected representatives make that decision. Very much like the election of a President in a parliamentary system. I see no issue or controversy here.

There's probably some mistakes here and there and its an iterative process which will fix itself as more intra party elections are held but its much better than 'Chairman for life' positions in other parties. It's all relative in Pak politics. I have never called PTI angels and have criticised them severely on other matters.

Also keep the 'mere laal' to yourself. Maybe you go that way but I dont.

 

[saadibaba]

The elected CEC in consultation with the Chairman decide on the Core Committee whose members, in most cases, are elected to the CEC aswell. Its an indirectly elected body as elected representatives make that decision. Very much like the election of a President in a parliamentary system. I see no issue or controversy here.

There's probably some mistakes here and there and its an iterative process which will fix itself as more intra party elections are held but its much better than 'Chairman for life' positions in other parties. It's all relative in Pak politics. I have never called PTI angels and have criticised them severely on other matters.

Also keep the 'mere laal' to yourself. Maybe you go that way but I dont.

An unelected body is somehow elected because the members who select them are themselves elected, lol....sounds like hogwash to me. You really clutching at straws here. Much different from your previous posts where you were chiding me about my cluelessness and inability to use google.

As for "mere laal" I meant "my beloved friend" in colloquial conversation, the lack of comprehension is still quite apparent. Don't take it personally but I never meant it in any different way, lol.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[cricketpolitics]

Resolutions mean nothing ... They pass that everyday .. It is ordinance and a bill which once added to constitution defines what is legal and what is not ...

Even that interpretation can be challanged in court ...

Hence some rigged parliament passing a resolution saying x thing is uncostitutional does not make it .. Unconstitutional

 

[godzilla]

An unelected body is somehow elected because the members who select them are themselves elected, lol....sounds like hogwash to me.

Isn't that how zardari came to power?

 

[zimmz]

Saadibaba, so you thinks it's so simple to elect each and every party office bearer directly by common people? In which world this happens?

As per PTI constitution (http://www.scribd.com/doc/228936287/Pakistan-Tehreek-e-Insaf-Constitution) a bottom up approach is used for elections.

-> A national council is a body of directly elected personals (http://www.scribd.com/doc/132058981/Office-Bearers-of-the-National-Council).

-> CEC contains elected central office bearers plus 30 members from National Council nominated by Chairman (who as well is elected person).

-> 15 member Core committee is then formed by secret ballot of CEC members.

I think we had enough discussion about PTI intra-party elections. The lady from KPK complains why she is not in core committee? Why not every other PTI person be in core committee? She lies that KPK don't get rep in CEC or core committee. As per current membership (http://www.scribd.com/doc/172720128/Notification-PTI-Core-Committee) there are 5 KPK members. That's good enough when proportionally KPK comes third in term of population. Baluchistan has 1 or 2 reps in core committee, while Sindh has close to 10. So how is this core committee a punjab committee?

Also as per constitution chairman has the authority to add members to committees if he consider them useful. So all those who complained about adding members should appeal against chairman in National council as per constitution instead of spreading propaganda. I am sure they themselves have not read the constitution when joining or leaving PTI.

Lastly the link for PTI documents for your convenience: http://www.scribd.com/PTIOfficial

 

[the Great Khan]

Fair enough. But the reasons behind this declaration does carry heavy weight. There has been mentioned about setting dangerous precedent in the future which explains why Pakistan Parliament had to declare unconstitutional and illegal. In my opinion, Pakistan Parliament has strong point.

if its unconstitutional it carries zero weight and just shows up the incompetence of the organisation that they don't even know their own laws.

 

[godzilla]

Saadibaba, so you thinks it's so simple to elect each and every party office bearer directly by common people? In which world this happens?

As per PTI constitution (http://www.scribd.com/doc/228936287/Pakistan-Tehreek-e-Insaf-Constitution) a bottom up approach is used for elections.

-> A national council is a body of directly elected personals (http://www.scribd.com/doc/132058981/Office-Bearers-of-the-National-Council).

-> CEC contains elected central office bearers plus 30 members from National Council nominated by Chairman (who as well is elected person).

-> 15 member Core committee is then formed by secret ballot of CEC members.

I think we had enough discussion about PTI intra-party elections. The lady from KPK complains why she is not in core committee? Why not every other PTI person be in core committee? She lies that KPK don't get rep in CEC or core committee. As per current membership (http://www.scribd.com/doc/172720128/Notification-PTI-Core-Committee) there are 5 KPK members. That's good enough when proportionally KPK comes third in term of population. Baluchistan has 1 or 2 reps in core committee, while Sindh has close to 10. So how is this core committee a punjab committee?

Also as per constitution chairman has the authority to add members to committees if he consider them useful. So all those who complained about adding members should appeal against chairman in National council as per constitution instead of spreading propaganda. I am sure they themselves have not read the constitution when joining or leaving PTI.

Lastly the link for PTI documents for your convenience: http://www.scribd.com/PTIOfficial

excellent post, and points very well made. as a further example, cabinet members of the uk government are not elected, they are appointed by the pm.

i wonder if the same standards of scrutiny are applied to the ppp or pmln? if not, why not?

 

[godzilla]

You are asking for example which can lead to unforseable consequence once PTI's tactics is legalized, currently illegal and unconstitutional, for reasons. Re-read my posts carefully to ponder. All the best.

unfortunately, none of that is actually comprehensible english. ive read your posts, its you who need to re read everyone else's.

the question remains and is very, very clear. you keep stating as fact that if this march results in the overturning of the government, it will set a dangerous precedent for future governments. ive asked you to demonstrate this principle with a single example from history, although in fairness, if you are stating it as fact, you should be able to quote many examples. there have been governments overthrown by the people throughout history, and throughout the world, so there is no shortage of samples to pick from.

the reason i suspect you cant find an example, is because they dont exist. a peoples revolt only work if there is a large number of people behind it. its a fallacy, or to use your terminology, a barefaced, shameless lie to suggest the march is backed by only a few hundred or few thousand people. if it were, there would be no worries for the government. the government are worried because they know this is potentially a very large and popular issue - it certainly has the potential to be so.

to that end whether its a past government or a future one, it is a very healthy precedent, that should the government fail the people miserably, extort, rob and cheat them, murder them and live lives where there is one law for the people and another for them, then yes, there should be peoples revolts and the governments should be overturned, whether they go by the name of the pmln, pp or pti.

revolts only work if there is widespread oppression and injustice - thats why its not an automatic precedent that should this government be overthrown, future ones will be at risk too with a handful of people. if future governments are oppressive, unjust and corrupt, then they might and should be at risk.

 

[zimmz]

i wonder if the same standards of scrutiny are applied to the ppp or pmln? if not, why not?

Two possiblities...

EITHER because of our 'national' mentality that includes following common thoughts:

- Laugh off or criticize anyone struggling to change or improve because system as it is somehow running (to their benefit) and impossible to change
- That 'struggling someone' has to pass high standards or better be PERFECT while at the same time rest of the lot and the system NEED long painful time to 'improve/change' -> conclusion: Either you be angel or don't try (else you are derailing the democracy/system)!

OR the person with such views is someone who just want to be COUNTED IN despite has nothing to do with the system/country/politics. So just pick any hot topic or personality and pretend to be pundit.

 

[godzilla]

fair enough.

to my mind the only two reasons i can think of is trolling and disingenuousness, or that there is personal benefit and agenda superseding principle.

its deplorable and digusting, either way.

 

[KarachiKing]

An unelected body is somehow elected because the members who select them are themselves elected, lol....sounds like hogwash to me. You really clutching at straws here. Much different from your previous posts where you were chiding me about my cluelessness and inability to use google.

As for "mere laal" I meant "my beloved friend" in colloquial conversation, the lack of comprehension is still quite apparent. Don't take it personally but I never meant it in any different way, lol.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

How is the President elected? Or the senators?

 

[saadibaba]

)

Stop trying to win an argument when you can't.

The core committee is elected and hence chosen by the people. People will vote for who they know can perform and is not corrupt and as it is not a general election you are not voting a ticket but an individual.

There is no favoritsm and neither is it a family limited partnership like PPP and PML-N. How about this 'landing back on your face.

Google 'PTI Central Executive Committee elections.' Learn how to use it. Helps for other things too

Apart from Secretary Information and Head of Social Media, which are confirmed by the CEC itself, the rest of the members were elected in an intra party election before the general elections last year. Hashmi, Qureishi, Swati, Mazari, Asad Umar and the provincial presidents were all elected in these elections.

Also there is a 2 term limit to being chairman unlike some parties where the chairman is elected unopposed as 'Chairman for life.'

The elected CEC in consultation with the Chairman decide on the Core Committee whose members, in most cases, are elected to the CEC aswell. Its an indirectly elected body as elected representatives make that decision. Very much like the election of a President in a parliamentary system. I see no issue or controversy here.

There's probably some mistakes here and there and its an iterative process which will fix itself as more intra party elections are held but its much better than 'Chairman for life' positions in other parties. It's all relative in Pak politics. I have never called PTI angels and have criticised them severely on other matters.

Also keep the 'mere laal' to yourself. Maybe you go that way but I dont.

How is the President elected? Or the senators?

First you chided me on how the core committe is "elected" than you started talking about CEC and not the "core committee" than you said its actually "indirectly elected", than you compared it with the election of a President in a parliamentary system. Do you know that in a parliamentary system the President is symbolic and basically has no powers. In case of PTI, the core committe seems to be the most powerful body in the party....I know they are not angels and all (a response usually given when the previously stated claims of superiority and neutrality fail miserably) but then I never said they were. All I was guilty of was to restate what a sitting PTI MNA from Swat had expressed in a TV show. But instead of a response like the one which you ultimately gave you went on a mission to prove me wrong.

There's probably some mistakes here and there and its an iterative process which will fix itself as more intra party elections are held but its much better than 'Chairman for life' positions in other parties. It's all relative in Pak politics. I have never called PTI angels and have criticised them severely on other matters.

 

[saadibaba]

Saadibaba, so you thinks it's so simple to elect each and every party office bearer directly by common people? In which world this happens?

As per PTI constitution (http://www.scribd.com/doc/228936287/Pakistan-Tehreek-e-Insaf-Constitution) a bottom up approach is used for elections.

-> A national council is a body of directly elected personals (http://www.scribd.com/doc/132058981/Office-Bearers-of-the-National-Council).

-> CEC contains elected central office bearers plus 30 members from National Council nominated by Chairman (who as well is elected person).

-> 15 member Core committee is then formed by secret ballot of CEC members.

I think we had enough discussion about PTI intra-party elections. The lady from KPK complains why she is not in core committee? Why not every other PTI person be in core committee? She lies that KPK don't get rep in CEC or core committee. As per current membership (http://www.scribd.com/doc/172720128/Notification-PTI-Core-Committee) there are 5 KPK members. That's good enough when proportionally KPK comes third in term of population. Baluchistan has 1 or 2 reps in core committee, while Sindh has close to 10. So how is this core committee a punjab committee?

Also as per constitution chairman has the authority to add members to committees if he consider them useful. So all those who complained about adding members should appeal against chairman in National council as per constitution instead of spreading propaganda. I am sure they themselves have not read the constitution when joining or leaving PTI.

Lastly the link for PTI documents for your convenience: http://www.scribd.com/PTIOfficial

Thanks. That explains. So there are total 27 members in the core committee right now but only 15 are actually elected by the CEC members....almost half simply appointed by the Chairman?

 

[Vegitto1]

Thanks. That explains. So there are total 27 members in the core committee right now but only 15 are actually elected by the CEC members....almost half simply appointed by the Chairman?

So if you had a choice to choose between a partially elected or a fully selected core-committee. Which one would you go for? Remember ideally we would want a fully elected core committee but that option is not on the table so let us choose from what we have.

 

[saadibaba]

So if you had a choice to choose between a partially elected or a fully selected core-committee. Which one would you go for? Remember ideally we would want a fully elected core committee but that option is not on the table so let us choose from what we have.

So you agree PTI core committee is partially selected, point proven. As for what I like, I'm supposed to be a supporter of the corrupt status quo here so let's just leave it at that.

 

[Vegitto1]

So you agree PTI core committee is partially selected, point proven. As for what I like, I'm a supporter of the corrupt status quo here so let's just leave it at that.

Where did PTI come into this? I presented you with a scenario, aren't we a bit too desperate to win an argument

 

[saadibaba]

Where did PTI come into this? I presented you with a scenario, aren't we a bit too desperate to win an argument

Where does winning an argument come into this? I'm just making a point.

 

[Vegitto1]

Where does winning an argument come into this? I'm just making a point.

When there was none to be made. Anyway, you didn't answer the scenario question

 

[Indiafan]

Two possiblities...

EITHER because of our 'national' mentality that includes following common thoughts:

- Laugh off or criticize anyone struggling to change or improve because system as it is somehow running (to their benefit) and impossible to change
- That 'struggling someone' has to pass high standards or better be PERFECT while at the same time rest of the lot and the system NEED long painful time to 'improve/change' -> conclusion: Either you be angel or don't try (else you are derailing the democracy/system)!

OR the person with such views is someone who just want to be COUNTED IN despite has nothing to do with the system/country/politics. So just pick any hot topic or personality and pretend to be pundit.

Once again nothing but personal attacks by PTI supporters. Easiest thing in the world is to put labels on people because then you will not have to treat them as individuals and answer their valid points. Also twist their point to prove your agenda instead of what they said

1) No one is laughing at the critics of system because it is somehow running. All people are saying is that no system has been allowed to exist in Pakistan for 67 years. Last thing they need is ONE MORE revolution. Just because this time the army is not involved doesn't mean that this revolution stands alone, it is the consequences of ONE MORE revolution which Pakistan will have to bear, this revolution will not stand in isolation

2) The struggling needs higher standard because it is not about throwing out a corrupt politician only is it? It is the higher implication of subverting the constitution yet again and it's long time consequences people are weighing and wondering whether it is worth it

If you do not have the basic decency to stick to the point instead of attacking posters then do not indulge in debates at all

 

[saadibaba]

When there was none to be made. Anyway, you didn't answer the scenario question

The partially elected one but if you are comparing it with PPP (which I am assuming you are), they doesn't make tall claims of having a democratically elected power structure unlike PTI.

 

[zimmz]

The partially elected one but if you are comparing it with PPP (which I am assuming you are), they doesn't make tall claims of having a democratically elected power structure unlike PTI.

Again, you think it is that easy to elect every single position directly by common people? For example all the ministers (including PM), the senate, committees both in Parliament and senate, the cabinet, the president, the speaker, the chairman of senate etc etc?

Directly elected people have the power, as per party constitution, to form councils, committees, and other organizations. Same way the chairman who is elected bottom up approach has the power to nominate people for certain committees. What's wrong with that? Already PTI took one or more year to conduct first elections (surely with mistakes) and you expect that it be perfect in first go. It was a party and not a country with resources to do that yet unlike all other parties they took a step and you lot have problem with it.

 

[zimmz]

Once again nothing but personal attacks by PTI supporters. Easiest thing in the world is to put labels on people because then you will not have to treat them as individuals and answer their valid points. Also twist their point to prove your agenda instead of what they said

1) No one is laughing at the critics of system because it is somehow running. All people are saying is that no system has been allowed to exist in Pakistan for 67 years. Last thing they need is ONE MORE revolution. Just because this time the army is not involved doesn't mean that this revolution stands alone, it is the consequences of ONE MORE revolution which Pakistan will have to bear, this revolution will not stand in isolation

2) The struggling needs higher standard because it is not about throwing out a corrupt politician only is it? It is the higher implication of subverting the constitution yet again and it's long time consequences people are weighing and wondering whether it is worth it

If you do not have the basic decency to stick to the point instead of attacking posters then do not indulge in debates at all

There is a saying in our culture "chor ki daarhi may tinka" and that fit well to your post. I didn't even name you and didn't attack anyone here personally.

Besides I am ignoring your rest of post because once again you repeat the stuff which has been addressed before by other posters.

 

[Strike Rate]

haha are they talking about all this **** channels in joint session? what a statement haha

 

[Kianig89]

haha are they talking about all this **** channels in joint session? what a statement haha

Geo n achakzai they are all from same clan

 

[saadibaba]

Again, you think it is that easy to elect every single position directly by common people? For example all the ministers (including PM), the senate, committees both in Parliament and senate, the cabinet, the president, the speaker, the chairman of senate etc etc?

Directly elected people have the power, as per party constitution, to form councils, committees, and other organizations. Same way the chairman who is elected bottom up approach has the power to nominate people for certain committees. What's wrong with that? Already PTI took one or more year to conduct first elections (surely with mistakes) and you expect that it be perfect in first go. It was a party and not a country with resources to do that yet unlike all other parties they took a step and you lot have problem with it.

Never said its easy nor did I chastised PTI for not being perfect. Simply stating the POV of a PTI MNA from Swat. Also, a former deputy information secretary of PTI quit citing the core committee as unconstitutional, his demand being that the core committee consists of only 15 member, all elected by the CEC through secret ballot. Seems like almost 12 more have been added by the Chairman who I know is elected and if anyone has a problem should take it to the proper channels but still, it's a valid point to make don't you think. In any case, good that PTI is at least semi- democratic unlike other parties we have.

 

[Indiafan]

There is a saying in our culture "chor ki daarhi may tinka" and that fit well to your post. I didn't even name you and didn't attack anyone here personally.

Besides I am ignoring your rest of post because once again you repeat the stuff which has been addressed before by other posters.

Yes you didn't you just categorized anyone who had opposing points into buckets, which is the same thing, you are putting labels on people

None of the stuff I have said has been satisfactorily addressed by any poster except repeating the same old corruption and rigging logic so you should be the last person to talk about repeating stuff

And for your one saying, I will give you two

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

"Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it"

 

[Strike Rate]

Amazing Baba from PTI Dherna hahaha

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x267rtp" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Strike Rate]

Today joint session was all about Geo wow the biggest issue in country is Geo?

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x267eqc" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Strike Rate]

Govt favoring nephew of ex Supreme Court Justice Ramdy for DG ISI post. General Javed Iqbal Ramday serverd as Instructor Infantry School...

 

[PetroDollars]

Govt favoring nephew of ex Supreme Court Justice Ramdy for DG ISI post. General Javed Iqbal Ramday serverd as Instructor Infantry School...

NS must be a high pro troll to go into a meeting with Gen Raheel and suggest this guy for the post, im sure he will be aware now, GEN RAHEEL IS CALLING THE SHOTS and NS can do nothing but sit down, listen and nod his head up and down.

 

[Strike Rate]

NS must be a high pro troll to go into a meeting with Gen Raheel and suggest this guy for the post, im sure he will be aware now, GEN RAHEEL IS CALLING THE SHOTS and NS can do nothing but sit down, listen and nod his head up and down.

Yes Army isn't in the mood to appoint another Gen Khawaja Ziaudin Butt as DG ISI lol there are reports of Gen Raheel meeting NS before NS leave for USA in a few days

 

[waqar goraya]

Majority of middle class, other than direct beneficiaries and religious extremists, are tilted towards PTI/Qadri although they are not a part of it. Middle class is sick of these plunderers who are hiding behind the name of democracy.

The truth is that resistance to usurpers is not in accordance with the best traditions of our society, hence no outright participation in protests.

 

[saadibaba]

Middle class has also historically been the biggest supporters of military rule and martial laws in our country. It's understandable as the business minded bourgeois class prospers during times of stability and relative peace and the technocrats get more power and say in national matters. Once their stomachs get full and their bank balances start growing, the bug of freedom and democracy start biting them in their behinds and you see them suddenly pining for a western style stable, honest and fully accountable democratic system to come at once, as if the system and it's angelic purveyors will simply land from the heavens and take over. How I wish if it was that simple. Unfortunately, institution building goes down the drain during military rule and it's a fantasy to just expect an overnight transformation. The problem comes when the middle class while wanting a perfect democratic system seem unwilling to wait for the system to correct itself overtime, just like every other country where democratic rule is strong and prosperous today had to go through. They want their cake and they want it now, hence the support for IK and Qadri sb who for them represent an ideal honest, upright, patriotic, self reliant, religiously conscious yet at relative ease with modernity leadership and an economically secure future. But even they know in their hearts that without Army's intentional or tacit support, that dream will never be possible. The electoral reform business using constitutional means to address the problems in our system will take years. That's too long. Why can't the COAS strong arm the PM into submitting his resignation, disqualify the corrupt old guard from participating in the next elections and just have their boy take power in a glorious sweep. Problem again arises that by using unconstitutional means, you end up winding the clock back to zero on institution building and go at the back of the long and bumpy road towards true democracy.


Thing to understand is there are no shortcuts, there is no messiah that will come and clean it all up in a few months or even years. The roots of corruption and nepotism run deep. Our political parties even PTI have a long way to go before becoming truly democratic. PTI went on the right path two years ago by rejecting Qadri's advances on the parliament, even though at that time they were outsiders and had no skin in the game. Shireen Mazari wrote the party's reason for not joining TUQ quite forcefully and eloquently at that time and the gave the reasons which are more true today than ever. PTI should have been even more cognizant of their responsibilities this time as part of the system. This slide towards political martyrdom, and all or none zero sum game that PTI had adopted reeks of desperation and need for personal glorification. Unfortunate to say the least but obviously a weak system is always going to be vulnerable to such moves. Now it's up to the rest of the political forces to reject such maneuvers and stick with our much despised and unpopular democratic experiment, having faith in our people to eventually reject populist rhetoric over the long and arduous process of gradual institution building.

 

[blinding light]

Middle class has also historically been the biggest supporters of military rule and martial laws in our country. It's understandable as the business minded bourgeois class prospers during times of stability and relative peace and the technocrats get more power and say in national matters. Once their stomachs get full and their bank balances start growing, the bug of freedom and democracy start biting them in their behinds and you see them suddenly pining for a western style stable, honest and fully accountable democratic system to come at once, as if the system and it's angelic purveyors will simply land from the heavens and take over. How I wish if it was that simple. Unfortunately, institution building goes down the drain during military rule and it's a fantasy to just expect an overnight transformation. The problem comes when the middle class while wanting a perfect democratic system seem unwilling to wait for the system to correct itself overtime, just like every other country where democratic rule is strong and prosperous today had to go through. They want their cake and they want it now, hence the support for IK and Qadri sb who for them represent an ideal honest, upright, patriotic, self reliant, religiously conscious yet at relative ease with modernity leadership and an economically secure future. But even they know in their hearts that without Army's intentional or tacit support, that dream will never be possible. The electoral reform business using constitutional means to address the problems in our system will take years. That's too long. Why can't the COAS strong arm the PM into submitting his resignation, disqualify the corrupt old guard from participating in the next elections and just have their boy take power in a glorious sweep. Problem again arises that by using unconstitutional means, you end up winding the clock back to zero on institution building and go at the back of the long and bumpy road towards true democracy.


Thing to understand is there are no shortcuts, there is no messiah that will come and clean it all up in a few months or even years. The roots of corruption and nepotism run deep. Our political parties even PTI have a long way to go before becoming truly democratic. PTI went on the right path two years ago by rejecting Qadri's advances on the parliament, even though at that time they were outsiders and had no skin in the game. Shireen Mazari wrote the party's reason for not joining TUQ quite forcefully and eloquently at that time and the gave the reasons which are more true today than ever. PTI should have been even more cognizant of their responsibilities this time as part of the system. This slide towards political martyrdom, and all or none zero sum game that PTI had adopted reeks of desperation and need for personal glorification. Unfortunate to say the least but obviously a weak system is always going to be vulnerable to such moves. Now it's up to the rest of the political forces to reject such maneuvers and stick with our much despised and unpopular democratic experiment, having faith in our people to eventually reject populist rhetoric over the long and arduous process of gradual institution building.

Well said. The long and short of the entire debate.

But oh no, now we're N-leaguers, ill-wishers, stupid deluded status-quo-lovers, benefactors who thrive on PMLN or PPP support, patwaris, distant relatives of some nameless MPA or the best yet, downright corrupt individuals who just want to see the country looted or sth.

The next thing - we'll suddenly be labelled "Indians" (even though they've contributed qualitatively to this thread).

 

[Fastandfurious]

Middle class has also historically been the biggest supporters of military rule and martial laws in our country. It's understandable as the business minded bourgeois class prospers during times of stability and relative peace and the technocrats get more power and say in national matters. Once their stomachs get full and their bank balances start growing, the bug of freedom and democracy start biting them in their behinds and you see them suddenly pining for a western style stable, honest and fully accountable democratic system to come at once, as if the system and it's angelic purveyors will simply land from the heavens and take over. How I wish if it was that simple. Unfortunately, institution building goes down the drain during military rule and it's a fantasy to just expect an overnight transformation. The problem comes when the middle class while wanting a perfect democratic system seem unwilling to wait for the system to correct itself overtime, just like every other country where democratic rule is strong and prosperous today had to go through. They want their cake and they want it now, hence the support for IK and Qadri sb who for them represent an ideal honest, upright, patriotic, self reliant, religiously conscious yet at relative ease with modernity leadership and an economically secure future. But even they know in their hearts that without Army's intentional or tacit support, that dream will never be possible. The electoral reform business using constitutional means to address the problems in our system will take years. That's too long. Why can't the COAS strong arm the PM into submitting his resignation, disqualify the corrupt old guard from participating in the next elections and just have their boy take power in a glorious sweep. Problem again arises that by using unconstitutional means, you end up winding the clock back to zero on institution building and go at the back of the long and bumpy road towards true democracy.


Thing to understand is there are no shortcuts, there is no messiah that will come and clean it all up in a few months or even years. The roots of corruption and nepotism run deep. Our political parties even PTI have a long way to go before becoming truly democratic. PTI went on the right path two years ago by rejecting Qadri's advances on the parliament, even though at that time they were outsiders and had no skin in the game. Shireen Mazari wrote the party's reason for not joining TUQ quite forcefully and eloquently at that time and the gave the reasons which are more true today than ever. PTI should have been even more cognizant of their responsibilities this time as part of the system. This slide towards political martyrdom, and all or none zero sum game that PTI had adopted reeks of desperation and need for personal glorification. Unfortunate to say the least but obviously a weak system is always going to be vulnerable to such moves. Now it's up to the rest of the political forces to reject such maneuvers and stick with our much despised and unpopular democratic experiment, having faith in our people to eventually reject populist rhetoric over the long and arduous process of gradual institution building.

I understand your thoughts but I've a question: should people not speak out against rigging and ask for electoral reforms just to keep the democratic system going? This question has nothing to do with what Imran's doing.

 

[Fastandfurious]

Well said. The long and short of the entire debate.

But oh no, now we're N-leaguers, ill-wishers, stupid deluded status-quo-lovers, benefactors who thrive on PMLN or PPP support, patwaris, distant relatives of some nameless MPA or the best yet, downright corrupt individuals who just want to see the country looted or sth.

The next thing - we'll suddenly be labelled "Indians" (even though they've contributed qualitatively to this thread).

Indian.

 

[blinding light]

I understand your thoughts but I've a question: should people not speak out against rigging and ask for electoral reforms just to keep the democratic system going? This question has nothing to do with what Imran's doing.

No problem in that whatsoever.

Taking up mob antics and resorting to blackmail and street justice however, is a different issue.

Indian.

Acha

 

[Fastandfurious]

I want Saadi's take.

 

[blinding light]

K.

 

[saadibaba]

I want Saadi's take.

My take is same as [MENTION=14431]blinding light[/MENTION]. Nothing wrong in it at all, in fact its essential that we hold the party in power accountable.

 

[Fastandfurious]

My take is same as [MENTION=14431]blinding light[/MENTION]. Nothing wrong in it at all, in fact its essential that we hold the party in power accountable.

I figured. How do the people go about doing so? And what if there is no response from the government?

 

[saadibaba]

Well said. The long and short of the entire debate.

But oh no, now we're N-leaguers, ill-wishers, stupid deluded status-quo-lovers, benefactors who thrive on PMLN or PPP support, patwaris, distant relatives of some nameless MPA or the best yet, downright corrupt individuals who just want to see the country looted or sth.

The next thing - we'll suddenly be labelled "Indians" (even though they've contributed qualitatively to this thread).

That's quite disheartening isn't it. It feels like once they become IK supporters, they suddenly gets bestowed with powers to shame and ridicule anyone who is not in agreement with their POV. They immediately get the right to be the moral and ethical police, the sole proponents of truth and justice and the rightful champions of true (clean) democracy. Must be a great place to be in. I wonder at times that my life on this forum would have been so blissful and easy if I would have also joined the ranks of the loyal cult following IK. I could have easily operated in the realms of pure black and white, not having to pay any attention to the grey areas in our political discourse and of course avoiding constant repetition. But alas, I decided to be the antagonist, a villain to my hero insafian brothers, at times wondering why am I even doing this. For what purpose do I wage this debate as I've known long before that I wont get anything from it but labels, colorful names and epithets. Still, the enthusiasm has not gone down and unfortunately IK and PTI keeps adding more fuel to the fire. When will I finally learn.