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Sachin Tendulkar vs AB de Villiers - The overall complete batsman?

Ab Fan said:
Then why a quality player like Rahane is struggling in odis...?He avgs 32-33 and at SR of 76-77..Why Dhoni has hardly two -three quickfire knocks in last four years?
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Dhoni is finished, simple :) In his prime he would have murdered these bowlers.

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street cricketer said:
Now this is overegging it. Yes, the rules have become much easier and the quality of the bowlers have gone down. But all these are not ABD's faults and he is the best ODI player of this era by some distance. So it is only fair that comparisons are made with the previous best players of their respective eras, although I'm not sure you can come to a credible conclusion by comparing across different eras. But nevertheless, the comparison is valid.
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ABDV is fantastic...no doubt, atleast comparing to his contempories. Andhon me kaana raaja wala case. But lets not fool ourselves by comparing him with SRT, Ponting or Lara.

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Indian_Supporter said:
ABDV is fantastic...no doubt, atleast comparing to his contempories. Andhon me kaana raaja wala case. But lets not fool ourselves by comparing him with SRT, Ponting or Lara.

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True because AB is a better ODI player than those names you mentioned.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Even Boycott's grandma can score runs in this era of flat decks, heavy bats, small grounds and against lack of quality bowlers. The best bowler in the world plays in his own team.

Rohit Sharma also has 2 Double hundreds when Sachin had only 1 and Viv Richards none. What does it say? Batting got extremely easy these days.

I have no doubt ABDV would have avg late 30's - early 40s had he played in 90s.

But yeah people can debate though...adds lot of entertainment value. Comparing with Sachin :facepalm:

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It has always been easy on flat Indian pitches.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Dhoni is finished, simple :) In his prime he would have murdered these bowlers.

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In the last four years, mention at least five such Dhoni innings where he murdered the bowlers even a quick fire 50-60 is acceptable here..AB has 4-5 this year only..
 
Also guys dont go by AB's heroics against Indian bowlers. I mean scoring runs against B.Kumar, Mohit and Yadav is no biggie. I am sure even SA/Aust/Pak domestic set up has better bowlers than them. AB only faced 1 quality bowler this series Ashwin and struggled both the games. Now imagine had he faced the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Mcgrath, Walsh, Ambrose, Warne, Lee etc. in 90s pitches like Sachin did...I have no doubt he is a 38 avg and 77 SR kinda batsman.

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Indian_Supporter said:
Also guys dont go by AB's heroics against Indian bowlers. I mean scoring runs against B.Kumar, Mohit and Yadav is no biggie. I am sure even SA/Aust/Pak domestic set up has better bowlers than them. AB only faced 1 quality bowler this series Ashwin and struggled both the games. Now imagine had he faced the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Mcgrath, Walsh, Ambrose, Warne, Lee etc. in 90s pitches like Sachin did...I have no doubt he is a 38 avg and 77 SR kinda batsman.

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He would have averaged 65 against those bowlers.
 
I am pretty sure AB is good enough to average high in the 90s. Whether he could have destroyed bowling like he is doing today in the 90s is a disputable idea - and most people who followed cricket in the 90s would agree that it was always going to be difficult to surpass Sachin for that era in the department of high averages and scoring rate. The rules of that would not have permitted scoring century after century at S/R in excess of 150 or 200. Viv Richards has just 43% of fifties/hundreds at S/R exceeding 100 and Viv wasn't destroying bowling attacks the way AB is doing these days. But we still recognize Viv as the best destroyer because we know Viv faced tougher bowling and conditions - run a ball knocks were exceedingly rare during Viv's days but Viv was still making them every two or three games. Similar conditions apply to Sachin, though Sachin played in an era that was more easy on openers (with field restrictions etc). Sachin did over an entire career what AB has been doing for five years, so Sachin would be ahead of AB at this time. If AB can carry on with the same game for a few more years, he might be better than Sachin. As of now, Viv > Sachin > AB, but there is a good possibility that by the time AB ends his career, it might be Viv >= AB >= Sachin.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Also guys dont go by AB's heroics against Indian bowlers. I mean scoring runs against B.Kumar, Mohit and Yadav is no biggie. I am sure even SA/Aust/Pak domestic set up has better bowlers than them. AB only faced 1 quality bowler this series Ashwin and struggled both the games. Now imagine had he faced the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Mcgrath, Walsh, Ambrose, Warne, Lee etc. in 90s pitches like Sachin did...I have no doubt he is a 38 avg and 77 SR kinda batsman.

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How many centuries Sachin scored against these bowlers on their backyards in 90s? AB scored 92 of 70 balls facing McGrath and co in 2007 WC while chasing at age of 22..So keep all these ridiculous arguments with yourself only..
 
Lets put it this way Sachin is probably the only batsman who faced bowlers accross most eras.

As a teenager he was already scoring runs against the likes of Marshall, Imran and Hadlee. ABDV probably didnt even got a chance to practice in nets for SA as a teenager.

Then he faced likes of Akram, Waqar, Donald, McGrath, Warne, Murali etc. as an adult. ABDV never faced any ATG bowlers. The good bowlers like Asif and Ashwin troubled him big time.

When he grew old, SRT also faced modern day bowlers like Steyn, Ajmal etc. etc. (struggling to even pen down good 5 bowlers this era)

No other batsman ever faced bowlers across so many generations. Yes he struggled against few no doubt. But maintaining an avg of 45 with a SR of 85+ in a span if 25 years against bowlers of such quality is amazing. Sorry cant put any batsman to that level. We can debate for the sake of debating though.

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freelance_cricketer said:
If Tendulkar had debuted today at the age of 16, i'd say with his talent and work ethic, he'd hit 15 double hundreds in tests and around 20 ODI hundreds at 200 SR.

Put ABD in the 90s though and i can barely see a 40 averaging test player and a 32 averaging ODI batsman with an SR of mighty 79.
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TBH, posts like these are what create animosity between the two sets of fans, because they are so imbalanced. You know with whom you have equated AB here? Some one like Carl Hooper or Jonty Rhodes!! Is that what you really believe?
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Lets put it this way Sachin is probably the only batsman who faced bowlers accross most eras.

As a teenager he was already scoring runs against the likes of Marshall, Imran and Hadlee. ABDV probably didnt even got a chance to practice in nets for SA as a teenager.

Then he faced likes of Akram, Waqar, Donald, McGrath, Warne, Murali etc. as an adult. ABDV never faced any ATG bowlers. The good bowlers like Asif and Ashwin troubled him big time.

When he grew old, SRT also faced modern day bowlers like Steyn, Ajmal etc. etc. (struggling to even pen down good 5 bowlers this era)

No other batsman ever faced bowlers across so many generations. Yes he struggled against few no doubt. But maintaining an avg of 45 with a SR of 85+ in a span if 25 years against bowlers of such quality is amazing. Sorry cant put any batsman to that level. We can debate for the sake of debating though.

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Live in denial
 
Sachin opened the innings and he mostly batted when field restrictions were in play.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Even Viv said, Kohli is a better batsman than him. Would you take his words for granted?

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I don't think Viv said Kohli was bettet. But you won't take Sachin's words? That's good. I laughed when Bradman taljed about Sachin.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Heard he was dropped from tests, then worked on his short ball game in FC and looked good but selectors found a stable team so he was never picked.

Bevan is a scary scary dude.

The hypocrisy of how much tests are favoured is shown when almost none of the experts chose Bevan in their World Cup XI that was circulated around.

Even I didn't choose Bevan in my team (forgot about him) and later felt like an idiot.
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:))

Yeah Oz were chockablock full of gun batsmen in those days I guess. If they didn't have it all together when they finally got the chance baam out the door. Long wait before that door ever opened again if at all. I mean even Gilly had massive insecurities about his place in the side. Anyway came across this interview with Bevan. Interesting read.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/480796.html

A lot of people blamed your failures at Test level on a weakness against the short ball. Was that fair?

I couldn't work it out at the time because I'd never really had an issue with it in the past but the more it happened, the more of an issue it became. I don't think I helped myself. I probably put too much focus on trying to play it well and gave it too much priority. I probably lacked a little belief that I could play it, even though a first-class average of 60 would suggest that it shouldn't have been a problem. I think in the end that my problems at Test level were more psychological than anything physical or technical.

Did you ever see yourself as a one-day specialist?

I never saw myself as being just a one-day player. It's just a tag I was given and have to live with. I guess when I first started I hoped I would play 100 Tests, but obviously it didn't pan out that way. In the end I think I was dropped from the one-day side too soon. I was left out because I think my role at No. 6 had been diminished by virtue of us having so many great players - I was simply required less.
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Buffet said:
Sanga used have SR in mid 70s even in 2012. Only in his last two and half years he had a good SR. I am 100% sure that it's simply due to new rules. Same rules also helped AB to have a SR of 115 in the last 3 years and it boosted his career SR but you are unfairly making a parallel with Sanga here. AB had gun numbers few years before that as well. Clearly, taking stats at face value for comparison with older era will be delusional but AB's situation is not the same as Sanga. AB was late bloomer and new rules surely inflated his stats but his situation is not just due to new rules.

And no, I and many other SA fans don't rate AB in league of Viv or SRT, but just making a point here.
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Hahaha yeah okay. So since 2009 he averaged 36 with a SR of 122 in T20 v the top teams because of what?

When you only have a couple of other reliable bats in your side and your job is to hold fort obviously a 90/100+ SR isn’t the main concern. Not everyone has the luxury of playing care free cricket. He definitely started upping his LOI game after 2009. So around the same time as T20 cricket took off. His last few years obviously the rules would have helped but to say that was the only reason for his success is laughable. He was just a much better LOI bat towards the end and batted with a lot more freedom.

Btw just curious what’s your connection to SA. A proper South African or just a SA cricket fan from elsewhere.
 
Sachin136 said:
If Sachin played today I do not think he would replicate what AB is doing today (in terms of the strike rate). He had an amazing power game way ahead of his time (maybe even equivalent to how far ahead AB is), but that doesn't mean he can do what AB does in this era. But as a top order batsmen he has a different role in the team, power hitting isn't the only factor in judging an ODI batsman.
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Good post. I would also add that if Tendulkar had played in this era, he would have scored numerous doubles. He already has a double and multiple 160+ scores in ODIs.

In the earlier of 15 over restrictions or bowling pwerplays, he would normally attack in the beginning and then consolidate in the middle. Given the fewer number of fielders in the middle overs, Sachin would be able to carry on his attacking style. Yes, that doesn't mean he could slog like AB, or score 31 ball hundreds, but he would still dominate the bowling and definitely score multiple 200s.
 
SL_Fan said:
Hahaha yeah okay. So since 2009 he averaged 36 with a SR of 122 in T20 v the top teams because of what?

When you only have a couple of other reliable bats in your side and your job is to hold fort obviously a 90/100+ SR isn’t the main concern. Not everyone has the luxury of playing care free cricket. He definitely started upping his LOI game after 2009. So around the same time as T20 cricket took off. His last few years obviously the rules would have helped but to say that was the only reason for his success is laughable. He was just a much better LOI bat towards the end and batted with a lot more freedom.

Btw just curious what’s your connection to SA. A proper South African or just a SA cricket fan from elsewhere.
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Rules make up 50% of the factor. The other 50% comes from attitude - due to playing T20 cricket.

The 80s ODI game was mostly about building a solid base in the first 30 overs, reach some thing like 100 odd in the first 30 overs and then taking the score to 220odd.

The 90s were somewhat different in that the opening phase was more hectic due to field restrictions. But as stats show, very few batsmen actually took advantage of the field restrictions - only Jaya, Sachin, Gilchrist and Anwar made proper use of the fielding restrictions on a consistent basis. Even Lara had a S/R of only 74 when he opened. So the 90s game was all about a quick start with attempt being made to get 75+ off 15. The middle overs (15-35) were mostly consolidation phases trying to keep the score board ticking at 3-4rpo with minimal risks. Then slog at the end and try to get 230-250.

The early part of 2000s wasn't very different strategy wise but flatter pitches started producing bigger scores and 250+ scores were happening with increasing frequency. Towards the later part of the noughties, pitches were flatter than ever before, bats started becoming bigger, boundaries were shortened, new types of balls, new rules like powerplays were making scores like 250 average ones.

But towards the close of the noughties, T20 influence was felt in ODIs. The so called consolidating middle phase was becoming old fashioned - preservation of wickets was no longer considered very important and more and more teams packed lower order with capable batsmen. Teams started realizing that 320/9 was a much better score than 275/4 so ODI game underwent drastic morphing. The current strategy in ODIs is to take as many risks as possible, and to use up as many wickets as possible to maximize the runs. But the surprising thing is that the more risks batsmen take in ODIs, runs started coming faster which put pressure on the bowlers - and this meant that batting team was often able to score huge totals without losing many wickets. High averages and high strike rates suddenly combined together unexpectedly. Even batsmen like Kallis who had strike rates of high 60s and low 70s in the 90s and early 2000s were scoring heavily this decade at S/R in excess of 80. Sanga too benefited from this arrangement.

Scoring at a S/R of 90 in the 80s and 90s at a high average was unusually hard. Most of the present day batsmen who are in the 90 S/R would have struggled to breach S/R of 80 or even 75 in the 80s and 90s.
 
IndianWillow said:
Rules make up 50% of the factor. The other 50% comes from attitude - due to playing T20 cricket.

The 80s ODI game was mostly about building a solid base in the first 30 overs, reach some thing like 100 odd in the first 30 overs and then taking the score to 220odd.

The 90s were somewhat different in that the opening phase was more hectic due to field restrictions. But as stats show, very few batsmen actually took advantage of the field restrictions - only Jaya, Sachin, Gilchrist and Anwar made proper use of the fielding restrictions on a consistent basis. Even Lara had a S/R of only 74 when he opened. So the 90s game was all about a quick start with attempt being made to get 75+ off 15. The middle overs (15-35) were mostly consolidation phases trying to keep the score board ticking at 3-4rpo with minimal risks. Then slog at the end and try to get 230-250.

The early part of 2000s wasn't very different strategy wise but flatter pitches started producing bigger scores and 250+ scores were happening with increasing frequency. Towards the later part of the noughties, pitches were flatter than ever before, bats started becoming bigger, boundaries were shortened, new types of balls, new rules like powerplays were making scores like 250 average ones.

Scoring at a S/R of 90 in the 80s and 90s at a high average was unusually hard. Most of the present day batsmen who are in the 90 S/R would have struggled to breach S/R of 80 or even 75 in the 80s and 90s.
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Then what would be your take on today's generation attacking batsmen like Virat and Rohit..?Would they also be having a SR of 75 in Sachin's era?
 
Ab Fan said:
Then what would be your take on today's generation attacking batsmen like Virat and Rohit..?Would they also be having a SR of 75 in Sachin's era?
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Kohli could be between 75-80 like Lara/Aravinda like players. Rohit and Dhoni around 75 like Inzy. And these S/R were considered attacking brand of cricket back then.
 
IndianWillow said:
Rules make up 50% of the factor. The other 50% comes from attitude - due to playing T20 cricket.

The 80s ODI game was mostly about building a solid base in the first 30 overs, reach some thing like 100 odd in the first 30 overs and then taking the score to 220odd.

The 90s were somewhat different in that the opening phase was more hectic due to field restrictions. But as stats show, very few batsmen actually took advantage of the field restrictions - only Jaya, Sachin, Gilchrist and Anwar made proper use of the fielding restrictions on a consistent basis. Even Lara had a S/R of only 74 when he opened. So the 90s game was all about a quick start with attempt being made to get 75+ off 15. The middle overs (15-35) were mostly consolidation phases trying to keep the score board ticking at 3-4rpo with minimal risks. Then slog at the end and try to get 230-250.

The early part of 2000s wasn't very different strategy wise but flatter pitches started producing bigger scores and 250+ scores were happening with increasing frequency. Towards the later part of the noughties, pitches were flatter than ever before, bats started becoming bigger, boundaries were shortened, new types of balls, new rules like powerplays were making scores like 250 average ones.

But towards the close of the noughties, T20 influence was felt in ODIs. The so called consolidating middle phase was becoming old fashioned - preservation of wickets was no longer considered very important and more and more teams packed lower order with capable batsmen. Teams started realizing that 320/9 was a much better score than 275/4 so ODI game underwent drastic morphing. The current strategy in ODIs is to take as many risks as possible, and to use up as many wickets as possible to maximize the runs. But the surprising thing is that the more risks batsmen take in ODIs, runs started coming faster which put pressure on the bowlers - and this meant that batting team was often able to score huge totals without losing many wickets. High averages and high strike rates suddenly combined together unexpectedly. Even batsmen like Kallis who had strike rates of high 60s and low 70s in the 90s and early 2000s were scoring heavily this decade at S/R in excess of 80. Sanga too benefited from this arrangement.

Scoring at a S/R of 90 in the 80s and 90s at a high average was unusually hard. Most of the present day batsmen who are in the 90 S/R would have struggled to breach S/R of 80 or even 75 in the 80s and 90s.
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Yeah the ODI game has undergone drastic transformations since the 70s, especially in the 2010s, and the numbers back that up.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e;orderby=start;template=results;type=batting

By the end of this decade I reckon that ave would be somewhere around 30/31 and the SR around 82/83. So that's a massive jump. There's more to it than just the new rules. Since the late 2000s the T20 mindset would have to be the biggest contributor I would say. Rules or no rules.
 
Actually if you look at SR of players in 90s decade, then only Jayasuriya with an avg of 29 had a better SR than Sachin..But in 2000s there were 6-7 players with better Strike rate like Jaya, Gilly, Viru, Yuvi,Afridi and the likes of Gibbs, Ponting had similar SR..So this is where Sachin lost his image of being one of the most explosive batsmen of his era...
 
Ab Fan said:
Actually if you look at SR of players in 90s decade, then only Jayasuriya with an avg of 29 had a better SR than Sachin..But in 2000s there were 6-7 players with better Strike rate like Jaya, Gilly, Viru, Yuvi,Afridi and the likes of Gibbs, Ponting had similar SR..So this is where Sachin lost his image of being one of the most explosive batsmen of his era...
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That is true but the tennis elbow he contracted during early part of last decade massively affected his attacking game. He just was not the same player anymore. But to his credit, he greatly adapted to his injury and changed his game, where many players would have just retired. That is one of the best qualities about him. To remain at the top for the best part of 24 years despite the amount of injuries he got during his long career.
 
street cricketer said:
That is true but the tennis elbow he contracted during early part of last decade massively affected his attacking game. He just was not the same player anymore. But to his credit, he greatly adapted to his injury and changed his game, where many players would have just retired. That is one of the best qualities about him. To remain at the top for the best part of 24 years despite the amount of injuries he got during his long career.
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And he ended with excellent stats even in 2000s avg 46 @SR 86 which is better than anyone else from that decade...
 
Sidilicious said:
Good post. I would also add that if Tendulkar had played in this era, he would have scored numerous doubles. He already has a double and multiple 160+ scores in ODIs.

In the earlier of 15 over restrictions or bowling pwerplays, he would normally attack in the beginning and then consolidate in the middle. Given the fewer number of fielders in the middle overs, Sachin would be able to carry on his attacking style. Yes, that doesn't mean he could slog like AB, or score 31 ball hundreds, but he would still dominate the bowling and definitely score multiple 200s.
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Sachin won't score nemerous doubles. He couldnt even score numerous doubles in tests. He has no stomach for fight
 
Sachin batted with field restrictions too but he doesnt have a 60 balls hundred.
 
Ab Fan said:
Actually if you look at SR of players in 90s decade, then only Jayasuriya with an avg of 29 had a better SR than Sachin..But in 2000s there were 6-7 players with better Strike rate like Jaya, Gilly, Viru, Yuvi,Afridi and the likes of Gibbs, Ponting had similar SR..So this is where Sachin lost his image of being one of the most explosive batsmen of his era...
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It was probably India's strategy. Sachin behaved like India's Sehwag during the 90s. But once India had a Sehwag, Sachin was no longer required to play the role of Sehwag. Two Sehwag like dashing batsmen was not required for ODIs. So Sachin toned down a bit and let Sehwag take over. Sachin could attack like Sehwag but Sehwag could not defend one end like Sachin so it was natural to let Sehwag go after the bowling. But even the toned down Sachin was a tremendous player and he formed one of the most lethal opening pair along with Sehwag. If a batsman like Sehwag was not discovered by India it is very likely that Sachin would have played more aggressively in the 2000s. When you have a batsman like Sehwag in the side, other batsmen can relax and play without taking too many risks.
 
sivaji said:
Sachin batted with field restrictions too but he doesnt have a 60 balls hundred.
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82 of 49 as an opener against NZ at age of 22, 186 of 150 in 90s, 200 of 150 against SA, 163 of 133 vs NZ, 175 of 140 vs Aus while chasing, 98 of 75 in WC against trio of wasim, waqar,shoaib and then the desert Storm...141 not out vs Aus even after the desert Storm...And the list goes on...
 
During the 90s Tendulkar used to hit a lot of aerial shots and play high risk game. But later on Tendulkar cut down on his aerial shots because there was lesser need to take that risk. As a statistical measure, take this.

In 92 matches Sachin played as an opener during the 90, he hit 92 sixes and 684 boundaries - 7.43 boundaries/game and one six per game. He had a batting average of 48.6 and a strike rate of 91.43 as an opener during this period. Tendulkar made 74% of his runs in boundaries/sixes in the 90s.

Post 2000 - Sachin played 202 matches as an opener, he hit 75 sixes and 1092 fours - 5.4 boundaries per game and 0.37 sixes/game. He had a batting average of 48.08 and a strike rate of 85.84 as an opener during this period. Tendulkar made 49% of his runs in boundaries/sixes post 2000.

It should be obvious that Tendulkar cut down significantly on big shots towards the later half of his career, which coincided with the arrival of Sehwag. He stopped hitting sixes almost completely and even cut down on boundaries and scored lots of runs in singles and twos. While the world was moving progressively towards bigger shots in the 2000s, Tendulkar was playing calmer than ever before. Many in this forum have not seen Tendulkar bat in the 90s and early 00s, so they are not used to seeing the big aerial shots Tendulkar used to play in every match. So they think he can't slog big. Tendulkar was a big hitter in the 90s as seen in his S/R of 91+ (and high percentage runs in boundaries) which was far ahead of his peers.
 
SL_Fan said:
He definitely started upping his LOI game after 2009. So around the same time as T20 cricket took off. His last few years obviously the rules would have helped but to say that was the only reason for his success is laughable. He was just a much better LOI bat towards the end and batted with a lot more freedom.

Btw just curious what’s your connection to SA. A proper South African or just a SA cricket fan from elsewhere.
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Well, Let's see how much he upped his game in ODI format starting from 2009.

2009-2012 - 100+ ODIS - 25% of his total ODIs so a big sample size.
.
2009-12.jpg


Now let's see what Sanga did in his last two and half years. That's upping his game or better explanation would be new rules.

2013.jpg

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So we have here,

Sanga from 2009 - 2012 : 102 ODIs - 4 tons - avg 43 & SR 78

His last two and half year: 67 ODIs - 11 tons - avg 59 & SR 91 -- That's called upping the game

So he jumped from being near the bottom to near the top in his last two and half years in SR. I will leave it here.

If you think above output means meaningfully upping his game in ODI from 2009 ,specially in context of comment in this thread, then I don't have much to add here.

I am not 100% SA origin. One parent from SA. So you could say 50% ;)
 
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IndianWillow said:
What excuse? That is a team strategy. Tell me one good reason why any team needs two dashing Sehwag like openers instead of one dashing Sehwag and one solid Tendulkar.
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How long did Sehwag play and he generally wasnt good outside of India so Sachin needed to play better.
 
Ab Fan said:
82 of 49 as an opener against NZ at age of 22, 186 of 150 in 90s, 200 of 150 against SA, 163 of 133 vs NZ, 175 of 140 vs Aus while chasing, 98 of 75 in WC against trio of wasim, waqar,shoaib and then the desert Storm...141 not out vs Aus even after the desert Storm...And the list goes on...
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No 60 ball hundred.
 
Buffet said:
Well, Let's see how much he upped his game in ODI format starting from 2009.

2009-2012 - 100+ ODIS - 25% of his total ODIs so a big sample size.
.
View attachment 61661


Now let's see what Sanga did in his last two and half years. That's upping his game or better explanation would be new rules.

View attachment 61663

----------------

So we have here,

Sanga from 2009 - 2012 : 102 ODIs - 4 tons - avg 43 & SR 78

His last two and half year: 67 ODIs - 11 tons - avg 59 & SR 91 -- That's called upping the game

So he jumped from being near the bottom to near the top in his last two and half years in SR. I will leave it here.

If you think above output means meaningfully upping his game in ODI from 2009 ,specially in context of comment in this thread, then I don't have much to add here.

I am not 100% SA origin. One parent from SA. So you could say 50% ;)
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What is Dhoni's record in this time. I assume that the relaxed rules in favour of batsmen would reflect in his batting too.
Sachin's best batting came in 90s therefore it must have been easier in 90s. That is the line of thinking you are applying to Sanga. Why can't it be that he improved as a batsman.
 
Mamoon said:
But from observation, I'd say that other than de Villiers, Sangakkara leads the way when it comes to cashing in under the new rules.
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I will add some data point and see if you think AB really leads the way in cashing in here after batsmen adapted to new rules.

2009-2012:

AB - avg 69 & SR 101 [ 10 tons in 56 ODIs ]

Sanga - Avg 43 & SR 78 [ 4 tons in 102 ODIs]


The last 2-3 years:

AB - 65 avg & SR 114 [ 10 tons in 63 ODIs ]

Sanga - 59 avg & SR 91 [ 11 tons in 67 ODIs ]

What AB did was to up his SR and nothing else in the last 2-3 years. He was making tons with the same frequencies. He was actually averaging a bit higher earlier as well.

So yah, AB benefited just like many others but did he really cash in too much or was he the biggest beneficiary under new rules? Answer is a clear no here.

It's about time, all of us acknowledge that AB is not about new rules. We are witnessing something magical here and it has been going on for the last 6 years now. Now 6 years of being the top dog is not enough for me to put him as the best ODI batsman in history, just like I didn't put Ponting as the second best in history in the Test format after his brilliant run. But AB can write the script from here on as well, so let's wait and see.
 
So lets say AB is benefitting under new rules, so he must average 70 at the SR of 140?
It is that people have set their mind on some people already and cant accept when something new comes in and takes over.
Same thing happened when Armstrong landed in moon. People literally refused to believe it. People refused to accept ODI cricket and now it is a part. They refused to accept t20 earlier and now we play t20 WC.

Sachin benifitted more from batting with field restrictions in first 15 overs too.
AB is consistently making lot of runs at good strike rate. He doesnt play a fantastic knock once in a while. He plays them regulalry.
 
sivaji said:
Sachin's best batting came in 90s therefore it must have been easier in 90s. That is the line of thinking you are applying to Sanga. Why can't it be that he improved as a batsman.
Click to expand...

Your argument is illogical in so many points that I din't know what to say. Sanga was pretty average or just above average ODI batsman till end of 2013. He started in 2000. That's freaking 13 years of his career. His best came starting from 2013. 2 and half years of best is not really the best which can be compared with batsmen with gun track record of 9-10 years. A huge failed analogy here.
 
Buffet said:
I will add some data point and see if you think AB really leads the way in cashing in here after batsmen adapted to new rules.

2009-2012:

AB - avg 69 & SR 101 [ 10 tons in 56 ODIs ]

Sanga - Avg 43 & SR 78 [ 4 tons in 102 ODIs]


The last 2-3 years:

AB - 65 avg & SR 114 [ 10 tons in 63 ODIs ]

Sanga - 59 avg & SR 91 [ 11 tons in 67 ODIs ]

What AB did was to up his SR and nothing else in the last 2-3 years. He was making tons with the same frequencies. He was actually averaging a bit higher earlier as well.

So yah, AB benefited just like many others but did he really cash in too much or was he the biggest beneficiary under new rules? Answer is a clear no here.

It's about time, all of us acknowledge that AB is not about new rules. We are witnessing something magical here and it has been going on for the last 6 years now. Now 6 years of being the top dog is not enough for me to put him as the best ODI batsman in history, just like I didn't put Ponting as the second best in history in the Test format after his brilliant run. But AB can write the script from here on as well, so let's wait and see.
Click to expand...

When Ponting was in great form, he had probably the second greatest record after Don but you know he isn't as good as Lara or Sobers. He did not have the genius of Sobers. But watching AB play this micky mouse ODI, I can make a judgement based on his skills. Have never seen anyone like that.
 
sivaji said:
When Ponting was in great form, he had probably the second greatest record after Don but you know he isn't as good as Lara or Sobers. He did not have the genius of Sobers. But watching AB play this micky mouse ODI, I can make a judgement based on his skills. Have never seen anyone like that.
Click to expand...

You are surely free to make your own judgement. Nothing wrong with that. I myself put AB in the same class as Viv, SRT etc but I don't rate him as the best due to limited number of years. When years get more, I think class+ output may put him as the best in history, but I will wait for that.
 
Buffet said:
Your argument is illogical in so many points that I din't know what to say. Sanga was pretty average or just above average ODI batsman till end of 2013. He started in 2000. That's freaking 13 years of his career. His best came starting from 2013. 2 and half years of best is not really the best which can be compared with batsmen with gun track record of 9-10 years. A huge failed analogy here.
Click to expand...
No. Given that you failed to explain, I assume that there is no really good reason. Lara had a really good period in early 90s and he fell below his standard. Dilshan all of a sudden started making runs. Vaughen had a period when he was cery good in test. Harmison had a very good period. Kasprowics had a late career resurgence. Harris had a late career boom after being an average FC player for a long time. There have been enough examples of players suddenly playing a lot better than they have had before. Sachin was better in 90s than 00s. You can't just equate rules change and Sanga's improvement. Dhoni played with the same restrictions and all why hasn't his record show an improvement.
 
Sivaji thambi...

South Africa poitu ipdi "hardcore Saffer dude" aita.

App appo namma Sachin, Kohli um support pannu thala.
 
sivaji said:
No. Given that you failed to explain, I assume that there is no really good reason. Lara had a really good period in early 90s and he fell below his standard. Dilshan all of a sudden started making runs. Vaughen had a period when he was cery good in test. Harmison had a very good period. Kasprowics had a late career resurgence. Harris had a late career boom after being an average FC player for a long time. There have been enough examples of players suddenly playing a lot better than they have had before. Sachin was better in 90s than 00s.
Click to expand...

Suddenly playing - tons of examples. There can be hundred of reasons for that and you can think that batsman did it due to XYZ and I can think that batsman did it due to ABC. Perfectly fine with both scenario.

13 years of average and 2 years of brilliance is totally different thing than 8 years of average and 8 years of brilliance in any order. You never equate those two situations when making an analogy. In fact the longer the brilliance period is , less likely that batsman was dependent on anything specific in ODI format where rules are changing all the time. But if you happen to be average for pretty much entire career and then suddenly become a gun player with some new rules then it's fair to say that batsman was very good in exploiting new rules. Nothing shameful about it. You need to have specific set of skills to exploit it. If you see things differently then let's agree to disagree here.
 
sivaji said:
How long did Sehwag play and he generally wasnt good outside of India so Sachin needed to play better.
Click to expand...

Sehwag always gave India fast starts, regardless of whether India played at home or away. When Sehwag wasn't in flow, Tendulkar usually made amends. You keep repeating that 100 off 60 balls as if 60 balls were some kind of milestone. Regular openers generally didn't make that kind of scores during Sachin's peak - if I remember right, only a pure slogger like Afridi made that kind of score as an opener, and too just once. Even Dravid has made faster fifties compared to Tendulkar, and Azhar has made faster hundreds than Sachin. I have not heard till date anyone claiming that Dravid and Azhar were better or more big hitting ODI players from any perspective just because they made lightning fast fifties and hundreds. I think Tendulkar's fastest fifty took 30 balls and his fastest 100 took 72 balls - other Indians have better "fastest" knocks but none of them are regarded as Sachin's equals in any respect, even in power hitting.
 
[MENTION=138135]sivaji[/MENTION]

Another point about why Dhoni or Ponting or SRT or Lara didn't start averaging 80 in ODI because they did great in 7-8 years is a weird argument.

For all his improvements, Sanga didn't really stood out among his peers. He simply elevated his level from near bottom to near top. Now it's much more harder to elevate from top to stratosphere.

I thought it's pretty clear for most folks and that's why didn't bother to give any explanation. If you see things differently then let's agree to disagree here.
 
Last edited:
Buffet said:
You are surely free to make your own judgement. Nothing wrong with that. I myself put AB in the same class as Viv, SRT etc but I don't rate him as the best due to limited number of years. When years get more, I think class+ output may put him as the best in history, but I will wait for that.
Click to expand...

But AB still don't have that one knock comparable to Sachin's desert Storm or Viv Richards dady hundred in finals or Kohli Hobart knock while chasing.He has played some great innings while chasing but there still lacks a storm like inning while chasing on whatever pitch he does.Its quite like Sachin who doesn't have that great knock in test and that goes against him and hence isn't considered the greatest test batsmen after Bradman and is rated not much higher than ponting/Lara either even though he has better stats than them.
 
Ab Fan said:
But AB still don't have that one knock comparable to Sachin's desert Storm or Viv Richards dady hundred in finals or Kohli Hobart knock while chasing.He has played some great innings while chasing but there still lacks a storm like inning while chasing on whatever pitch he does.Its quite like Sachin who doesn't have that great knock in test and that goes against him and hence isn't considered the greatest test batsmen after Bradman and is rated not much higher than ponting/Lara either even though he has better stats than them.
Click to expand...

AB is in his peak and I sure that he will produce some gun knocks. Let's wait and see. SRT's that kind of gun period was also not his entire career. It was in late 90s.

AB is still playing and going great at this moment so I won't start picking points at this moment to hold it against him.

I do put him in the same class based on what I have seen so far. Simply based on watching him.
 
Last edited:
This 60 ball hundred works for openers like Gilly, Jaya,Viru whose job was to give a flying start to their team and if they would stay on after that they would further destroy bowling attack and hence score a 60 ball hundred...Sachin's job was to play throughout the innings and score daddy hundreds and made sure that wickets don't fell regularly and later accelerate and that's why you would see innings like 163 of 130 balls or 189 off 150 balls because he would score a 100 at SR of 95-100 and then up the ante..
 
Buffet said:
Well, Let's see how much he upped his game in ODI format starting from 2009.

2009-2012 - 100+ ODIS - 25% of his total ODIs so a big sample size.

Now let's see what Sanga did in his last two and half years. That's upping his game or better explanation would be new rules.

----------------

So we have here,

Sanga from 2009 - 2012 : 102 ODIs - 4 tons - avg 43 & SR 78

His last two and half year: 67 ODIs - 11 tons - avg 59 & SR 91 -- That's called upping the game

So he jumped from being near the bottom to near the top in his last two and half years in SR. I will leave it here.

If you think above output means meaningfully upping his game in ODI from 2009 ,specially in context of comment in this thread, then I don't have much to add here.

I am not 100% SA origin. One parent from SA. So you could say 50% ;)
Click to expand...

I said he started upping his game around 2009. Before then he was more like a 35 ave 75 SR sort of batsman. Then after 2009 he became a 45 ave 80 SR sort of batsman. And the last few years threw caution to the wind and went haywire. As I pointed out in my previous post since 2009 he was striking well over 120 with a healthy ave in T20Is where teams are allowed 5 outside the circle after the first 6 overs. So to put it all down to the rules is rubbish.

Anyway this should show what’s what

vs the top teams

Screen%20Shot%202015-10-30%20at%202.23.58%20am_zpsz1l4j1bj.png


Btw his 2011 SR was only 70 odd but he did average 90+ in the WC and won the 2011 ICC ODI player of the year award as well.
 
Buffet said:
AB is in his peak and I sure that he will produce some gun knocks. Let's wait and see. SRT's that kind of gun period was also not his entire career. It was in late 90s.

AB is still playing and going great at this moment so I won't start picking points at this moment to hold it against him.

I do put him in the same class based on what I have seen so far. Simply based on watching him.
Click to expand...

Yes..we have seen him scoring 120-130 of 80 balls while batting first..Just expecting one such knock while chasing where he destroys the bowling attack..
 
Ab Fan said:
Yes..we have seen him scoring 120-130 of 80 balls while batting first..Just expecting one such knock while chasing where he destroys the bowling attack..
Click to expand...

It's bound to happen sooner or later.
 
Buffet said:
It's bound to happen sooner or later.
Click to expand...

But for that he needs to come up the order.While batting first, he would come up around 30 overs and can score a 100 but that won't be the case while chasing.. And when he has to chase a 300+ target, he can't come up at 30-2 and play a storm like inning...IMO, while batting first that no.4 position is perfect but while chasing a 300 + target, he should come up at no.3 and if he would have done that in the 4th odi against India, he won't have found him in a position where he had no support from other end and had to score all those runs alone at a fast SR..
 
Last edited:
Also different players have different roles within the team. You can't expect 90/100 SRs out of batsmen who are supposed to hold the inning together, especially in a fragile batting line-up. Last few years Dilshan has been the one doing that which has allowed Sanga to play more freely and take on the bowlers. Faf for example is striking around the 85 mark while Amla/de Kock/AB are in the 90s/100s. Faf can hit out with the best of em (T20I SR of 135 btw) but instead he keeps things steady because that's the job given to him.
 
Last edited:
SL_Fan said:
Yeah the ODI game has undergone drastic transformations since the 70s, especially in the 2010s, and the numbers back that up.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e;orderby=start;template=results;type=batting

By the end of this decade I reckon that ave would be somewhere around 30/31 and the SR around 82/83. So that's a massive jump. There's more to it than just the new rules. Since the late 2000s the T20 mindset would have to be the biggest contributor I would say. Rules or no rules.
Click to expand...

Should add that interestingly from the bowling side of things (Ave/SR/Eco) not a whole lot has changed from decade to decade since the 90s.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;orderby=decade;template=results;type=bowling
 
Buffet said:
[MENTION=138135]sivaji[/MENTION]

Another point about why Dhoni or Ponting or SRT or Lara didn't start averaging 80 in ODI because they did great in 7-8 years is a weird argument.

For all his improvements, Sanga didn't really stood out among his peers. He simply elevated his level from near bottom to near top. Now it's much more harder to elevate from top to stratosphere.

I thought it's pretty clear for most folks and that's why didn't bother to give any explanation. If you see things differently then let's agree to disagree here.
Click to expand...

Sanga's evolution is not just due to the new rules. The influence of T20/IPL played a role too. Sanga gained lot of experience in power hitting playing T20s and IPL and carried them over to ODIs. Since Sanga is a seasoned international batsman he made this transition quickly. Sanga's S/R went from 75 to 100+ towards the close of his career, the rules cannot make that kind of difference.
 
From an interview with Sanga earlier this year

How have demands on one-day batsmen changed since you began?

Roles of batsmen have changed. When I started, for a long time they told me my job was to bat 40 overs and let everyone else bat around me. It was a case of just holding the fort and playing, playing, playing. That was basically my job at No. 3. But when the sides changed, when your role changed from being a guy who bats 40 overs to someone who could score quickly and bat for only 20 overs, and that's still good enough for the side. Everyone is thinking about making an impact with their run-making.

Now when I go in to bat, if the situation calls for it, I've tried to keep my strike rate at around 100. I know that if I'm anywhere between 85 to 100 when the Powerplay comes, I know I can kick that up to 120-130 or even further. The mindsets have all changed. You don't hold the fort for the rest of the guys anymore. The rest of the guys are capable of doing that.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/855753.html
Click to expand...
 
street cricketer said:
Woah, this guy is an Indian?
Click to expand...

He chose his username based on Rajnikanth's Sivaji. I asked him and he told me that.

So likely. [MENTION=138135]sivaji[/MENTION]

Pak Warrior said:
What language is that bro, and what are you saying here
Click to expand...

Its Tamil.

IndianWillow said:
Sivaji bro,

After going to south africa, you have become a "hard core Saffer fan".
Please remember to support our own Sachin and Kohli once in a while. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah bro.

You are a Mallu who lived in Chennai for a while too naa?

You also know Telugu right?
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
How would you rate the 4 ODI batsmen: Viv, SRT, Ponting and ABD?

Interested to know.
Click to expand...

My single biggest (and simplest) Parameter to judge a batsman is the bowling quality they faced under different conditions ... SRT comes way ahead of anyone in that regard. Its a shame that Viv did not have to face the great WI fast bowlers in TEST+ODI cricket and there were just too many of them in his times. The only outstanding ODI Bowler he faced was Wasim ( but in his early days ) . He did ok against Waz and Iam sure that he would have succeeded in the 90s but this is just speculation. Also Viv played lot less ODI's ( just 167 inngs compared to SRTs 452 ! ) than the rest . One strange fact is that Viv never made a Hundred at home in ODI's !!

So :
1. SRT
2. Ponting
Some Gap
3. ABD

In terms of Brutality factor and the ability to just Bully the crap out of opposition none better than Richards and Sehwag.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Even Viv said, Kohli is a better batsman than him. Would you take his words for granted?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

He didn't. And neither did Bradman say same for Sachin. Hear these 2 imaginary lines a lot
 
Tusker said:
My single biggest (and simplest) Parameter to judge a batsman is the bowling quality they faced under different conditions ... SRT comes way ahead of anyone in that regard. Its a shame that Viv did not have to face the great WI fast bowlers in TEST+ODI cricket and there were just too many of them in his times. The only outstanding ODI Bowler he faced was Wasim ( but in his early days ) . He did ok against Waz and Iam sure that he would have succeeded in the 90s but this is just speculation. Also Viv played lot less ODI's ( just 167 inngs compared to SRTs 452 ! ) than the rest . One strange fact is that Viv never made a Hundred at home in ODI's !!

So :
1. SRT
2. Ponting
Some Gap
3. ABD

In terms of Brutality factor and the ability to just Bully the crap out of opposition none better than Richards and Sehwag.
Click to expand...

Lara actually did better against ATG bowling in ODIs than Sachin. There was a phase between 1992-1997 when Lara destroyed Wasim/Waqar/Donald at their peak, and that too opening ! Check out some of his performances in SA in WI 92,Pak/SA/WI tri series 92,Pak in WI 93, CU series in Aus 96 etc. Sachin did well too, but Lara was more dominant during the 90's against ATG attacks.

Not saying Lara was a better ODI batsman than SRT/Ponting or ABDV. But if your criteria is solely playing against ATG bowlers than Lara should be somewhere near, if not, at the top.
 
Tusker said:
My single biggest (and simplest) Parameter to judge a batsman is the bowling quality they faced under different conditions ... SRT comes way ahead of anyone in that regard. Its a shame that Viv did not have to face the great WI fast bowlers in TEST+ODI cricket and there were just too many of them in his times. The only outstanding ODI Bowler he faced was Wasim ( but in his early days ) . He did ok against Waz and Iam sure that he would have succeeded in the 90s but this is just speculation. Also Viv played lot less ODI's ( just 167 inngs compared to SRTs 452 ! ) than the rest . One strange fact is that Viv never made a Hundred at home in ODI's !!

So :
1. SRT
2. Ponting
Some Gap
3. ABD

In terms of Brutality factor and the ability to just Bully the crap out of opposition none better than Richards and Sehwag.
Click to expand...

Without a doubt, Tendulkar was the most destructive ODI batsman of the 90s along with Jaya, but it is not true that he was the greatest ODI batsman against great bowlers. Sachin did not make a single hundred outside Asia (against a non minnow nation) throughout the 90s. His only 100s outside Asia were against Zimbabwe and Kenya. So there is no evidence that Sachin flourished against the greatest bowlers of the 90s. Sachin was exceptionally good in Asia during the 90s, but he was less than spectacular outside Asia against good bowling sides in the limited opportunities he got. This basically means that argument that Viv did not have to face a lot of great bowlers does not mean much. Average of 47 at S/R of 90 (over 200 odd matches!) during the 70s/80s era is nothing short of superhuman, which is why Viv's position at the top is difficult to dislodge.
 
Slog said:
He didn't. And neither did Bradman say same for Sachin. Hear these 2 imaginary lines a lot
Click to expand...

Bradman didn't say Sachin was better than him. He told that his wife said Tendulkar's playing resembled his style very much while watching Sachin on telly.

Iirc Viv tweeted that kohli's way of attacking play reminded of his play (though I'm not sure about this one. Have to check)
 
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