Hitman
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Averaged 23.5 in this series in 6 innings with 0 fifties. In the series prior to that, he averaged 30 in 4 innings with 0 fifties.
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The battle of the keepers, Rishabh Pant versus Mohammad Rizwan
- Thread starter Babar_Azam_fan
- Start date
jeeteshssaxena
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There was no time or duration in the history of earth where Rizwan was a better t20 bat than Jos Butler.
jeeteshssaxena
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Rizwan is struggling in lo formats too, his odi stint has been poor.
Mamoon
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Rizwan was not better than Buttler as a white ball WK batsman at any point. Not even for a single day.
No one in his right mind would have ever picked him over Buttler in an ODI/T20 team.
Hextro
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He certainly was the best T20I batsman in the world at the time of my comment. The stats and rankings prove it. The only argument you have to support your point is your opinion, which is useless more often than not.
Someone who has a strike rate in the 120s can never be the best T20 batsman in the world. The rankings are irrelevant because Pakistan is the only top team who doesn't rest their best players in meaningless bilaterals. Buttler missed 7 T20s in September alone and lost many rating points because of that.
Rana
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Nasser Hussain loves to hype him to the moon. Maybe someone should ask Nasser if he would swap Butler for Rizwan even when Rizwan was in his best form in T20.
Let’s see how honest his assessment is
Mamoon
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Individual stats & rankings don’t take so many factors into account. This is why players like Babar & Rizwan topped the T20 charts even though neither of them were great batsmen in the format at any stage.
The notion that Buttler is better than Rizwan in the shorter formats is as much of an “opinion” as saying that Kohli is a better batsman than Azhar Ali.
Rizwan’s T20 career turned around when Misbah ended his misery in the middle-order & promoted him as opener in New Zealand in December 2020.
Since December 2020, Rizwan has played 57 T20Is.
Buttler in the same period has played on 29 T20Is.
In other words, he has practically played 50% less T20s than Rizwan in the same period.
This is the ONLY reason why Rizwan had a better ranking than Buttler.
In ICC player ranking system, the more you play, the more ranking points you accumulate.
Unless two players are playing equal number of matches against the same opposition in the same conditions, their respective rankings will never fully capture how good or bad they are compared to each other.
Besides, Buttler & Rizwan never played against each other in this period. The only stage where they both played together were the two WT20s in 2021 & 2022.
Rizwan:
13 matches, average 36.77, strike rate 125.79
Buttler:
12 matches, average 61.75, strike rate 147.90
Buttler completely outclassed Rizwan when they shared the same stage. The difference in their numbers is very much representative of the actual gap between the two in this format.
If Rizwan played for England or if Buttler played for Pakistan, Rizwan would have never opened & he would still be flopping in the middle-order with an average of 18 & strike rate of 95.
If you really think that over their entire careers, there was a single moment where you would have Rizwan in your ODI/T20 team over Buttler then you deserve to support a rubbish team like Pakistan. Such fans do not deserve anything better.
Congratulations on Rizwan’s rankings & stats. England is very much satisfied with their inferior Buttler & would never trade him for the superior Rizwan.
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Mamoon
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Nasser loves to suck up to Pakistan for some weird reason. He turns into a cliche machine & a cheerleader when it comes to Pakistan cricket. Hopefully he will shut up after the 3-0.
I’m sure it was a very painful moment for him to see Pakistan get thrashed in this fashion & he could not bring out his usual cliche ridden crap about how unpredictable Pakistan is, how you cannot write them off, how much talent they have etc.
Rana
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Butler was fully fit to play but just sat and watched the T20i series against Pakistan
Can you imagine Babar or Rizwan being fully fit and sitting out, watching others play in their position?
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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Both of them are struggling at the moment. 
Hextro
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Average of 70 and an SR of 134 for a period of 3 years in T20Is. Most runs scored in a calendar year in T20Is, most 50s in a calendar year, No 1 ranked batsman, etc.
During the time my comment was made it was completely relevant.
mamoon will not use the same excuse regarding rankings in test cricket when it comes to Pakistani players but he will use it to fit his narrative.
Mamoon
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I would, if Pakistan produces a genuine contender for number one ranking in Test cricket - batsman or bowler. If they do & he doesn’t get ranked first because of less number of matches, I will point it out.
However, the last time Pakistan had a genuine contender was back in 2014-15 when Younis Khan went on a phenomenal run against Australia & New Zealand.
Hextro
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Shamelessly ignorant response.
I'll reiterate my point since you clearly have comprehension issues. During the time I made my comment Rizwan was the best T20I batsman in the world. Contrary to what you believe, the argument for him being the best went beyond just rankings.
This section of your argument can be summarized in three words, coulda, woulda, shoulda.
How can I give Buttler credit for the innings he didn't play? Players don't and shouldn't get extra appreciation for the matches they miss. I'm talking about pure performance not potential when I talk about the best T20I batsman during that period.
We can't predict a player's performance for the matches they didn't play, so saying Buttler would've destroyed teams if he played the matches he missed is a stretch because who knows, maybe he would've failed if he played the matches he missed or he could've made a lot of runs. We don't know, so it's best to use the data we have and not make assumptions.
Stats can help us find out. I made the comment that triggered you on September 5th. Here are Rizwan and Buttler's stats up to that date.
PS, I only included the top 5 ranked T20I teams because I know how much you love to moan about "minnows".
Rizwan:
Innings - 19, Runs - 964, Avg - 69, SR - 135.5
Buttler:
Innings - 28, Runs - 934, Avg - 39, SR - 156.4
Whether you think either one of these guys has better stats than the other in the given timeframe is up for interpretation. I for one thought and still think Rizwan has the better stats during this timeframe. It isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. Throw away your hatred of Pakistani players for a second and try to think objectively.
In case you were wondering, Buttler averaged 16 against the top 5 teams in 2022. Remember, these stats are for before September 5th.
Laughable filtering.
Rizwan played 7 out of the 13 matches you filtered after I made my comment, which means those matches aren't relevant to this discussion. Also, as I said previously, the concept of judging players only based on the tournaments they played together is extremely dumb. By this imaginary benchmark you've created someone can easily say that Azhar Ali is a better Test batsman than Virat and you'd have no counterargument to make because neither of Azhar and Virat has ever played in a Test tournament together against each other.
In this portion of your comment, you're just repeating the rubbish you've been posting for many years. It doesn't deserve a response.
I'll reiterate my point since you clearly have comprehension issues. During the time I made my comment Rizwan was the best T20I batsman in the world. Contrary to what you believe, the argument for him being the best went beyond just rankings.
This section of your argument can be summarized in three words, coulda, woulda, shoulda.
How can I give Buttler credit for the innings he didn't play? Players don't and shouldn't get extra appreciation for the matches they miss. I'm talking about pure performance not potential when I talk about the best T20I batsman during that period.
We can't predict a player's performance for the matches they didn't play, so saying Buttler would've destroyed teams if he played the matches he missed is a stretch because who knows, maybe he would've failed if he played the matches he missed or he could've made a lot of runs. We don't know, so it's best to use the data we have and not make assumptions.
Stats can help us find out. I made the comment that triggered you on September 5th. Here are Rizwan and Buttler's stats up to that date.
PS, I only included the top 5 ranked T20I teams because I know how much you love to moan about "minnows".
Rizwan:
Innings - 19, Runs - 964, Avg - 69, SR - 135.5
Buttler:
Innings - 28, Runs - 934, Avg - 39, SR - 156.4
Whether you think either one of these guys has better stats than the other in the given timeframe is up for interpretation. I for one thought and still think Rizwan has the better stats during this timeframe. It isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. Throw away your hatred of Pakistani players for a second and try to think objectively.
In case you were wondering, Buttler averaged 16 against the top 5 teams in 2022. Remember, these stats are for before September 5th.
Laughable filtering.
Rizwan played 7 out of the 13 matches you filtered after I made my comment, which means those matches aren't relevant to this discussion. Also, as I said previously, the concept of judging players only based on the tournaments they played together is extremely dumb. By this imaginary benchmark you've created someone can easily say that Azhar Ali is a better Test batsman than Virat and you'd have no counterargument to make because neither of Azhar and Virat has ever played in a Test tournament together against each other.
In this portion of your comment, you're just repeating the rubbish you've been posting for many years. It doesn't deserve a response.
Mamoon
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I am not reading this word salad. You lost credibility when you claimed that Rizwan was the best WK batsman in T20Is at one point over the last two years. That was never true.
You keep coming up with stats & you keep exposing your ignorance because Buttler's SR is almost twice to Rizwan no matter how you slice the pie.
Please carry on with your delusions. Rizwan is (or was) the best WK batsman in T20Is in the same delusional world where Babar is the best batsman in the world, Shadab is the best all-rounder & Naseem is the best young fast bowler.
In spite of having so many best this & best that, we keep getting spanked left, right & center.
If you are going to reply trying to convince me & others that Rizwan was better than Buttler in T20Is at some point, it is better you don't reply. I still don't believe for a moment that over the last two years, there was a ever a point where you would have given preference to Rizwan over Babar in your T20I team. If you did, this sport is not for you.
Babar Azam is a genuine contender he's currently at 3 and doesn't play half the tests other country top players play.
Mamoon
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He is not. Babar barely gets into the top 10 if we take everything into consideration. He has a long way to go before he can be considered as the best Test batsman in the world.
So now the t20 rankings are incorrect alongside the test rankings great.
I didn't say THE Best Test batesman in the world I am talking about genuine contender two separate things.
Mamoon
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I didn’t say they are correct or not. I said that if a Pakistani batsman or bowler is deserving of the number one ranking but falls short because of not playing enough matches, I will acknowledge it.
Babar is not that guy.
Hextro
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I've already dismantled every argument you made in favor of Buttler's performances during the period I was referencing. You shouldn't have hastily replied to my original comment if you didn't understand its context.
You're letting your lack of comprehension leak again. Here are the stats again.
Rizwan:
Innings - 19, Runs - 964, Avg - 69, SR - 135.5
Buttler:
Innings - 28, Runs - 934, Avg - 39, SR - 156.4
Despite playing 9 fewer innings Rizwan had scored 30 more runs than Buttler while averaging almost twice as much. The difference in runs and average is way bigger than the difference in SRs. Here, Rizwan definitely has the better record.
You can't keep your irrational hate for Pakistani cricketers out of an argument, can you?
I've made my point clear, whether you understand it or not isn't my problem. Trying to convince someone as stubborn as you of something is damn near impossible.
Mamoon
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The only context here is that you have no idea what you are talking about & are utterly clueless.
That is the only rational explanation for someone who has the audacity to argue that Rizwan was a better T20 player than Buttler at some point over the last two years.
In my 10 years on PakPassion, I have seen some ridiculous comments & analysis. This is right up there with some of the most absurd nonsense that I have had the displeasure to read.
It is the highest form of delusion that one can possibly reach & it is no mean feat because Pakistani fans are as delusional as they come. However, even for their standards, the notion that Rizwan was better than Buttler is comical.
Apart from maybe Rizwan’s family, you are the only person in the world who would pick him over Buttler in a T20 team. I still have this small hope in my heart that you were trolling & were not serious, but that hope is fading rapidly with each reply of yours.
I hope you stop now so that I can retain that tiny tidbit of hope that you were joking. Please tell me that you were.
In Tests there is no comparison, Rishabh Pant is miles ahead of Rizwan. In T20Is though Pant hasn't cracked it yet at the highest level so Rizwan is better. In ODIs though Pant is slightly ahead as he has a better average and a SR of over a hundred but neither have set the world alight in that format.
Hextro
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Have your brain blown knowing the fact that I'm being serious when I say that there was a point in time when Rizwan was the best T20I batsman in the world. Take off your blue-tainted glasses and you'll be able to see that a lot of people agree with my assessment.
The more I read your response the more I realize that you're doing what you've been doing for over 10 years on this forum, trolling. It's as if you copy and paste your past responses over and over again with little alteration.
Don't bother replying if you don't have a solid argument. Reading your copy-pasted comments gets old real quick.
Sidilicious
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The point people are trying to make is, being a no.1 ranked batsmen is different from being the best batsman, especially in T20s. In this format, teams don’t really send their main players a lot of the time, and thus start using their 2nd string players.
So, this has 2 impacts two effects on the rankings 1) someone like Butler who would skip a lot of matches will have points deducted if he doesn’t play England matches. There is a calculation somewhere, and the impact of skipping a series is significant. 2) Players like Rizwan who play all matches irrespective of opposition will get to play more against 2nd string bowlers than those who don’t. Thus, the rankings of players that play all matches will be inflated.
Now, that doesn’t mean that Rizwan doesn’t deserve the no.1 spot. He can’t be blamed for other batsmen not playing or other teams sending 2nd string sides. His job is to score runs, which he did well and thus deserve the number 1 ranking.
But that doesn’t mean he is the best WK batsmen in the world. Butler in the few matches he plays, creates a greater impact than Rizwan and this has been clear for all to see. His SR, which is way more important than average in T20s, is way higher than Rizwan. When you start filtering out minnows and matches where Rizwan played against second string bowling, the difference becomes even starker.
Finally, this mostly applies to T20Is and only to an extent to ODIs. This rarely applies to test. Because you lose points if you do not play the match, but your team does. If your team plays less matches the ranking points are not affected as long as you play all matches that your team plays. Unlike T20s, No one really skips a test match. Even against Bangladesh and Ireland, teams would generally play their best XI. So, players sitting out matches to give others chances or to take rest is very rare in test cricket. Thus, the same measure cannot be applied in tests matches.
PS .though you could argue that by playing fewer matches the opportunities are limited. But then you would need to blame PCB for that, as they are the master of reducing tests to 2 match series and adding more T20s.
BreadPakoda
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In T20s, high average + mediocre SR is worse than mediocre average + mediocre SR. You don’t want a 60 average + 125 SR batsman
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Mamoon
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Only delusional clowns will agree with you that Rizwan > Buttler in T20Is. You have to be absolute bonkers to think along those lines.
You have to have an awful understanding of the T20 game to think the stats above somehow shows Rizwan to be a superior bat in this format.
Beyond a point, runs average becomes meaningless in T20 and SR matters so much more. If the batsman with a higher average like Rizwan is playing at a SR that is 20 points below Butler then it means he's taking up precious balls and not scoring quick enough for his team.
Hextro
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If you made a reasonable argument that'd support your point then I'd agree, but unfortunately, you're incapable of doing so.
Mamoon
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If you need a “reasonable argument” to conclude that the earth is not flat then there is something wrong with you.
Hextro
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During the period I was quoting, on average Buttler was scoring 33 runs off 21 balls and Rizwan was scoring 51 runs off 37 balls per innings. The consistency alone makes Riz the best T20I batsman during that period.
If we were to believe that runs scored at a very acceptable rate mean nothing then 2013-16 Shahid Afridi should be considered one of the best T20I batsmen of all time. During that period Afridi on average scored 16 runs off 9.7 balls per innings. According to you, Afridi isn't taking up precious deliveries and is scoring according to your imaginary standard thus he's one of the best of all time. You should keep your logic consistent and start rating Afridi above the likes of Buttler, Virat, etc.
Hextro
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Deluded take as always. Again, avoid quoting me unless you have something meaningful to say.
Front Foot Pull
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mentioned that period, that period so many times that i assumed the S/R to be astronomically high during that period lol
if a batsman with lower S/R has a higher average then it is more damaging to the team. this is such a basic thing in T20s. after a certain average, may be 25 or 30 it is the strike rate which matters. for finishers even lower average can be accepted provided they have even more higher S/R.
this average fetish of PAK fans, players, management is weird. first of all, the S/R of rizwan in the mentioned period is nothing extraordinary to boast about and then just check their career & last 1 year S/R, laughable.
these "average" batsmen are getting saved by pak's good bowling unit in T20Is. as an opposition i will always wish for pak to continue with these "average" batsmen, as the score will never be higher, only thing is to tackle pak's bowling.
Mamoon
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The guy who would pick Rizwan over Buttler in his T20 team is calling me deluded. Beautiful.
If this makes me deluded I am happy to be called one. Fans like you deserve Rizwan in your T20 team & not Buttler.
Hextro
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Who said I'd pick Rizwan over Buttler in my T20I team? If we were talking about them till Sep 5th sure, but not at this moment. That's been my point this whole time.
If you couldn't understand that till now then yes, you are deluded.
Rana
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So until the 5th of September 2022…Rizwan was better than Butler?
Hextro
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I only mentioned the rankings as a factor, it isn't the be-all and end-all. When Rizwan was at his peak he scored an unprecedented amount of runs and It's unlikely that anyone will have that type of peak anytime soon. Given the number of records he has broken I thought it was a no-brainer that he was the best batsman in the world at his peak, but clearly not for some people.
I checked the scorecards of the matches both Riz and Buttler played during the timeframe I'm talking about and it's clear to see that both of them had their fair share of 'second-string' bowling lineups. If you take a look at most T20 matches nowadays you'll see that teams are missing some of their 'frontline' bowlers almost every match. Even a team like Bangladesh misses some of their main bowlers in T20Is. This isn't just a problem in T20s but also in the other 2 formats, but maybe not to the same extent. So should we start discrediting every T20I batsman in the world because they haven't played against 1st string bowling lineups 100% of the time? The answer is no.
To answer your third paragraph, I've already filtered out 'minnows' from their stats and only included the top 5 ranked T20I teams in the world. I didn't filter out second-string teams because both the batsmen we are comparing faced almost the same amounts of second-string bowling lineups.
Mamoon
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Yes
)This is probably the worst assessment I have seen on PP to date & I have seen many. Never thought I would get to see this day.
Hextro
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Read the whole thread and come up with your own conclusion.
Rana
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Yes
This is probably the worst assessment I have seen on PP to date & I have seen many. Never thought I would get to see this day.
The month of September holds great importance in the history of Earth
Things changed dramatically on the 5th and the 11th
Hextro
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Yes
This is probably the worst assessment I have seen on PP to date & I have seen many. Never thought I would get to see this day.
You are writing as if you think I care, rest assured I don't.
Hextro
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That's the day I made my comment genius. We are talking about records up until that point. Anything that happened after is irrelevant to the discussion.
Hextro
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You're making the same points some other guy made in this thread earlier. Just read my reply to that guy since it pretty much covers everything you're saying.
So you believe Babar does play enough matches ?
Rana
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So, the records up until that point suggest Rizwan was better than Butler (up until that point)?
Pant is better than Rizwan in Tests and ODIs.
Rizwan is better in T20s but for a one off game, if you ask me whom to pick, I will always go with Pant over Rizwan because Rizwan type batsman are in abundance but very few can match the calibre of Pant.
Rizwan is better in T20s but for a one off game, if you ask me whom to pick, I will always go with Pant over Rizwan because Rizwan type batsman are in abundance but very few can match the calibre of Pant.
Hextro
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If you read the whole chain of comments I made you wouldn't be asking very obvious questions.
Ab Fan
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Stats and ICC rankings don't matter much in T20Is because the format is all about impact knocks. Based on batting position, the role of a player changes.
I would take Pant over Rizwan in all formats. Rizwan was a nobody when he was at Pant's age.
I would take Pant over Rizwan in all formats. Rizwan was a nobody when he was at Pant's age.
Mamoon
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People are free to bookmark this post & challenge me in 2032 if I am wrong.
jeeteshssaxena
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Anyone who can't see the difference in ability and talent between Pant and Rizwan is basically a cricket illiterate.
Rizwan had his peak as a batsman and is on the way down now. He could never be considered as a comparison to a once in a generation player like Pant.
Pant has also grown so much as a keeper over the last 2 years and is easily among , if not the best, keeper in the world.
Pant has also grown so much as a keeper over the last 2 years and is easily among , if not the best, keeper in the world.
Romali_rotti
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There was never a comparison, legside Rizwan was nothing but a bits n pieces test player, Pakistan seem to create these types of players often, Umar akmal, Kamran Akmal etc...While Pant so far looks like the best wickie bat since Gilchrist.
shaz619
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Pant can help break the jinx in tournaments, will be interesting comparing him with Rizwan during the World Cup.
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Rizwan is definitely the best in tests atm. His record speaks for itself but Pant can match him in no-time. Impact-wise, Pant is way ahead, if he can be the same as he was before the injury.
mominsaigol
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Rizwan isn't better then any international keeper in any format. Literally none. Only Kyle Verryene and Joshua Silva comes to mind from SA and WI mainly come to mind due to quinton who just retired.
Unless Zimbabwe, Uganada and those teams are counted.
1) Afghanistan (Gurbaz)
2) Australia (Alex Carrey, Josh Inglis)
3) Bangladesh (Liton Das, Mushfiqar Rahim)
4) England (Butler, Jamie Smith)
5) India (Pant, Rahul, Sanju)
6) New Zealand (Tom Blundell, Conway, Rachin)
7) South Africa (Quinton)
8) Sri Lanka (Kusal Mendis, Chandimal)
9) West Indies (Nicholas Pooran)
So congrats Rizwan is better then Kyle and Joshua 2 players who aren't even frontline keepers in their squad and are only fill ins for pooran in WI and Quinton who just retired.
shaz619
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All this talk about the severely handicapped Bumrah, but it was Pant who was the biggest difference down-under.
To me anyway, Rizwan is just not fit enough for the highest level, best way to sum up the battle between these two is that if Pant passed some wind, Rizwan would be hospitalised.
To me anyway, Rizwan is just not fit enough for the highest level, best way to sum up the battle between these two is that if Pant passed some wind, Rizwan would be hospitalised.
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In test format, he definitely is the best one.
Rana
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You are not sure about T20 and ODI?
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In odis yes he has got a place but in T20s, I will opt to rest or drop him.
mominsaigol
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False, the innings that both Carrey and Das have played this year were not only match saving but match winning from ridiculously difficult positions, Bangladesh could have easily been bundled quickly and forced to follow on, Instead his innings alone contributed towards a win as pakistan couldn't fluke another 200+ score against their pacers and spinners.
The rest are either similar or have a better avg on hone soil which are far more difficult pitches to play on then pindi where even Imam is averaging 63 on.
The only difference however was Australia which was Rizzu's best series to date in that he performed and did extremely well, However before this he was so bad on home turf that he got replaced and embrassed by A 36 year old has been sarfi on home soil.
So you're telling me the world's best test keeper got dropped for a 36 year old has been keeper, despite the fact that he himself is category A and the beloved Ladla of the team and it was against babar's wishes to even drop him?
Damn I wonder why sohaib Akhtar and half of the planet demanded him to be dropped against NZ.
mominsaigol
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I'm sure, He is a Gand no 4 in odi. And no I didn't autocorrect Gun for Gand. You heard me
Rana
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Rest him and bring him back if others don’t average 50 at a sr of 110?
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Nay. If we have someone better then drop him for good.
RyanRyan10
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Pant has won 2 overseas in Aus and is also a T20 WC winner whereas Rizwan's gun performances have taken Pakistan to no.8 in tests and no.7 in the t20i rankings.
RyanRyan10
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Rachin doesn't keep. Phillips does.
Rana
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You need to be clear about what it means to be better than Rizwan in T20s
According to many, Fakhar or Sharjeel isn’t better than Rizwan as a T20 opener. So what exactly do you want from the batter who plays in his position?
mominsaigol
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Sorry my bad
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Is sharjeel or Fakhar the keepers that we are looking for???
Rana
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Oh right I see the goal posts shifting already
So now it has to be a keeper who opens in T20 or an opener who hits the ball with the intention of utilising the powerplay?
That’s why I am asking you to be very clear about what you want as his replacement
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I want a keeper to replace a keeper bro.. No matter the number. BROOO
Rana
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Muhammad Harris is a more versatile and appropriate batter for this format, he’s an ok Keeper too. You have an issue with him?
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KingLiton
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Liton Das is better than both combined.
sweep_shot
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I think Rizwan is better.
Pant did well in that Gabba Test. But, what has he done since then?
Rizwan wins.
Pant did well in that Gabba Test. But, what has he done since then?
Rizwan wins.
mominsaigol
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Brother, The nexus mindset is affecting you, I am here to help.
Please understand that rizwan is a fraud opener hiding behind the keeping clause. You can hire virtually anyone from domestic literally anyone amd they'd be happy to play at no 7 or 8 just like sarfraz did and contribute to the team.
Let openers be openers and keepers be keepers. We don't need fake keepers who can't understand drs pretend to be fake openers and No 4's who have imaginary issues with the side screen and fake injuries every game
Rana
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I don’t even know why I am trying to make you see the light, but I hope someone else does….
Let’s take it step by step, should Rizwan open in T20s?
Rana
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Yeah I mean Rizwan’s 178 against Bangladesh at Rawalpindi puts him right up there
sweep_shot
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Did Pant score anything substantial after that Gabba innings (which happened like 4 years ago)?
Without 178, Pakistan could've lost by an innings in that Test.
Also, Rizwan contributed well during Pakistan's 2-0 win over Sri Lanka.
I am not saying Rizwan is the best but Rizwan is a better option than Pant.
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