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The Pakistani-British Youth

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I was researching for a politics essay a few years ago and I found some shocking data. I came across this table showing exam results by race - I can't remember the exact figures, but British-Indians were topping the list by a huge margin, and British-Pakistanis were near the bottom of the table.

It's strange because when I meet a person of Pakistani origin, they seem to be either exceptionally bright and cool guys, or like a faux-'gangsta' type of guy who thinks its cool to underachieve academically and sell drugs. Unfortunately, the latter group seems to be more prevalent nowadays (and yes, I have confirmed this with other Pakistanis).

Its such a shame though, because I know how much potential British-Pakistanis possess. They can be just as good as their indian counterparts, but something somewhere is very wrong. Is it parents who don't teach their kids the value of education, or pehaps something else?

Why is this happening when India and Pakistan were essentially one country a couple of generations ago?

This forum is an excellent example of Pakistani potential, full of articulate, intelligent members. Long may it continue!
 
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I think a lot of it has to do with type of immigration that came here

Majority of the Indians that came here were educated people (Mainly doctors i would guess) - whilst the majority of Pakistani's came from Mirpur, these people were farmer's so these were illiterate people that came over and they worked, worked extremely hard BUT i think with some of them the emphasis on education didnt pass over to their kids - something which the Indians did very well

Though im hopeful this situation will improve in coming generations, though i dont think we will ever get close to the Indians due to the large cardboard gansters that seem to be floating about
 
also a lot of the indians that come to UK are gujji, these guys are really hard working and put emphasis on education. without tarring us all with the same brush, us pakistani's tend to look for the easy option that requires the least amount of work. a lot does have to do with your parents, if they are educated and professionals, you will tend to go towards that goal as a son/daughter.
 
Geordie Ahmed said:
Those statistics are for 1999 - is there anything more recent? Though i doub it will have changed much
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Yeah, the Chinese have passed both Indians and Pakistanis since then.
 
I look upto guys like Imran, James Caan and Shaf Rasul. I think if these guys (and other successful people) started doing talks and helping small communities we could start moving forward.

A new mindset needs to be used - I like this chinese proverb which I will paraphrase. 'Life is easy for those who are hard on themselves.'
 
The indian immigration has nothing to do with their race.

The fact is that the really successful "Indians" and "pakistanis" among us tend to be from Africa. People who were kicked out.

Pakistanis in the UK tend to be from Mirpur or Gujar Khan. They don't have a tradition of education pushing them into Universities. This is however changing and more and more people are turning to Universities every year,
 
I dont think things have changed much, i think the bottom 3 are Pakistani, Bengali and Caribbean unfortunately.
 
Splinter said:
I was researching for a politics essay a few years ago and I found some shocking data. I came across this table showing exam results by race - I can't remember the exact figures, but British-Indians were topping the list by a huge margin, and British-Pakistanis were near the bottom of the table.

It's strange because when I meet a person of Pakistani origin, they seem to be either exceptionally bright and cool guys, or like a faux-'gangsta' type of guy who thinks its cool to underachieve academically and sell drugs. Unfortunately, the latter group seems to be more prevalent nowadays (and yes, I have confirmed this with other Pakistanis).

Its such a shame though, because I know how much potential British-Pakistanis possess. They can be just as good as their indian counterparts, but something somewhere is very wrong. Is it parents who don't teach their kids the value of education, or pehaps something else?

Why is this happening when India and Pakistan were essentially one country a couple of generations ago?

This forum is an excellent example of Pakistani potential, full of articulate, intelligent members. Long may it continue!
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God I HATE seeing apnay trying to be wannabe "gangsters". In my area it's mostly the Gujarati Indians that are like that, who roam the streets going "brap brap" to everyone they meet. And it's just like "get out of my face. Go and get some GCSEs and a proper job instead of harassing me on the street!" I'm scared that Asian youth will get into gang crime/ violence, and this will up the anti on Asians even more. It not like we haven't already got enough bad press being Pakistani AND Muslims anyways. :pissed:
Sometimes it is just the family background and lack of motivation, and sometimes it's just peer pressure and making yourself look cool and getting "street credibility". And believe it or not, people like this are dragging asian society down in one way or another. :po:
 
As other members have said, its all down to background and opportunity.

Most of the older pakistani population came here working in factories and their children didnt know any english and were bullied/ subjected to racism at school getting into fights daily so that most of them became taxi drivers or set up their own businesses.

Their kids grew up in areas with young black kids and to 'survive in the hood' i guess you can say they adopted 'gangster culture' too.
 
Splinter said:
I was researching for a politics essay a few years ago and I found some shocking data. I came across this table showing exam results by race - I can't remember the exact figures, but British-Indians were topping the list by a huge margin, and British-Pakistanis were near the bottom of the table.
Click to expand...

I read that working class white boys are now at the bottom, behind working class black boys.

All the Brit-Pakistanis I meet are articulate, motivated, qualified professional types, though perhaps that is just because of the circle I move in.
 
I think the situation is beginning to change now, you cant over haul something like that overnight but its getting much much better, there also seems to be alot more money within the community now.

I think all those restaurants, chippies, pizza places and self imposed Taxi tax cuts are actually beginning to build up alot of or atleast some finance within the community.
 
The Pakistani children growing up in the 70's were on a par, if not better, than the Indians and everyone else.
The tide turned in the late 70's when these kids became of marriageable age, especially the girls, and there was a clamour (before the law was changed and came into effect whereby fiance's were to be required to obtain Visa's in advance from UK Embassy's in Pakistan), to 'marry' off the kids quickly.

This marital haste was not based upon what was good for the child, but rather, let's get the son/daughter of a relative over to the UK.

This mentality has continued ever since, with each new generation, with the result that the children never get a stable upbringinging - the parent who came from Pakistan is rushing back every few months to see their own parents/bothers/sisters.
- And taking the children with them - depriving them from their schooling.

Look around you at the British Pakistani communities - and you'll see I am right.
 
I just think some are using the system. Some are just happy or satisfied that they are living better than what it would be in Pakistan. Some parents including of thoes above probably work very hard (like they would have to in Pakistan but for less) and they don't have time or energy to focus on kids. If a kid who is let's say 15 and doing bad in school or not listening or interested (forget about how it got there as it is too late to think about it) what can they do?

The oppurtunities are there - much better than Pakistan or most of the world. My guess is the situation of some is like the video some one posted about a reality show (Garewal or something). It is not good viewing looking at the father works and grownup kids are wasting time probably. He has no option other than throw them out if it is real
 
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Javelin said:
The Pakistani children growing up in the 70's were on a par, if not better, than the Indians and everyone else.
The tide turned in the late 70's when these kids became of marriageable age, especially the girls, and there was a clamour (before the law was changed and came into effect whereby fiance's were to be required to obtain Visa's in advance from UK Embassy's in Pakistan), to 'marry' off the kids quickly.

This marital haste was not based upon what was good for the child, but rather, let's get the son/daughter of a relative over to the UK.

This mentality has continued ever since, with each new generation, with the result that the children never get a stable upbringinging - the parent who came from Pakistan is rushing back every few months to see their own parents/bothers/sisters.
- And taking the children with them - depriving them from their schooling.

Look around you at the British Pakistani communities - and you'll see I am right.
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right on the money.
 
Javelin said:
The Pakistani children growing up in the 70's were on a par, if not better, than the Indians and everyone else.
The tide turned in the late 70's when these kids became of marriageable age, especially the girls, and there was a clamour (before the law was changed and came into effect whereby fiance's were to be required to obtain Visa's in advance from UK Embassy's in Pakistan), to 'marry' off the kids quickly.

This marital haste was not based upon what was good for the child, but rather, let's get the son/daughter of a relative over to the UK.

This mentality has continued ever since, with each new generation, with the result that the children never get a stable upbringinging - the parent who came from Pakistan is rushing back every few months to see their own parents/bothers/sisters.
- And taking the children with them - depriving them from their schooling.

Look around you at the British Pakistani communities - and you'll see I am right.
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That's a very accurate point indeed.
 
Wow, some really good points here. I'm hoping that the current young generation get married later on to the right partner so that they can have a more functional marriage for their children. Hopefully as time goes on, education will be focussed on more and we will reach our full potential. I think it will take a couple of more generations for this to happen though!
 
If there were farms around and you worked on it then it is different. Why is this education not needed going on unless they have their business/stores running but that will be a minority too. Isn't this want people ask in Pakistan that spend millions and make schools but if people are going to do this where it is avaiable then will it be waste of money. People adapt after 2-3 years and the parents have spent a lot more time than that. Education matters come when the child is 6+ years old so it is atleast 7 years being in the country (for the new comer as the spouse is there few years beore or maybe a generation) and both seeing what they have and what is good, bad and what is available. I just think it is laziness, feeling that they are better than some people, parent busy and getting things/benefits easily by parents and government etc
 
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People adapt after 2-3 years and the parents have spent a lot more time than that. Education matters come when the child is 6+ years old so it is atleast 7 years being in the country (for the new comer as the spouse is there few years beore or maybe a generation) and both seeing what they have and what is good, bad and what is available.
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My dad came here when he was ten, got into fights daily at school and didnt leave with any kind of education. He was brought up in salford along with his brothers which probably didnt help either.

People from working class backgrounds are the worst at school, i dont think it has anything to do with race unless you are also burdened with language problems.
 
SCI said:
also a lot of the indians that come to UK are gujji, these guys are really hard working and put emphasis on education. without tarring us all with the same brush, us pakistani's tend to look for the easy option that requires the least amount of work. a lot does have to do with your parents, if they are educated and professionals, you will tend to go towards that goal as a son/daughter.
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Huh Gujjus are the business community of India.
They do respect education but really not the most educated community.
For opening businesses and running them Gujjus rock :)
 
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I have never been to UK, and have never studied the reasons behind this stark contrast. But will this stop me from 'contributing' to this thread? Hell no. :)

Just kidding.

I would like to know the consequences of this difference in these grades though, in economic and other terms. What does this difference translate into in 'real' life, once the youngsters leave schools?

Anybody?
 
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Momo said:
I have never been to UK, and have never studied the reasons behind this stark contrast. But will this stop me from 'contributing' to this thread? Hell no. :)

Just kidding.

I would like to know the consequences of this difference in these grades though, in economic and other terms. What does this difference translate into in 'real' life, once the youngsters leave schools?

Anybody?
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good grades usually mean you can get into better schools and better universities. Extra curricular helps not the gangsta type though :P

I suspect that would also be the case in the UK?
Majority of the people who continue end up doing well thanks to studies compared to a minority who do substantially better without studies.

There are few Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, but there are a lot more highly educated people in all walks of life who are earning more than a decent income.
However that may not really be the case in the UK, US cause you don't need to be highly educated to earn a decent living unlike in India.

Though its changing in India as we speak. :)
 
No offence but most of the uneducated, gangster wannabes are of Kaashmir origin (Mirpuri) and are usually based up north from Birmingham,Bradford etc. The educated pakistanis are mainly from Punjab and live in the southern terrorities of the UK. It may sound stereotypical but it is generally true.
I beleive the Mirpuri youngsters come from an uneducated ,village background hence education and a decent upbringing is not fundamental to their aims and objectives. Instead they end up working in restuarants,selling drugs and driving taxis.
 
MaVeRiCk said:
No offence but most of the uneducated, gangster wannabes are of Kaashmir origin (Mirpuri) and are usually based up north from Birmingham,Bradford etc. The educated pakistanis are mainly from Punjab and live in the southern terrorities of the UK. It may sound stereotypical but it is generally true.
I beleive the Mirpuri youngsters come from an uneducated ,village background hence education and a decent upbringing is not fundamental to their aims and objectives. Instead they end up working in restuarants,selling drugs and driving taxis.
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A few things:
1. I agree with you on the Southern/Northern divide factor. It's true that most of the educated desi's are here in the South.

2. Most of the gangsta type cannot be kashmiri's because I am not Kashmiri, and half of the "gangsta population" of the UK consists of members of my family :P.

3. My father was 17 years old when he came to the UK. He couldn't speak a word of English. Back home he was from a small village, where hardly anyone was educated. His father (my dadaji) was an army soldier and my grandmother was uneducated. My fathers siblings were also uneducated. He came here, with no push from his parents and made a living for himself, and now he is a senior mechanical engineer working all over the world. Now to the point about being from an uneducated background. Yes sometimes it is true that your place of birth/growing up does play a big factor, but not all the time. It sometimes depends on your own determination to want to do something.

4. I wouldn't stereotype the MPs (Mirpuri's). They may get touchy---> :po:
 
I beleive the Mirpuri youngsters come from an uneducated ,village background hence education and a decent upbringing is not fundamental to their aims and objectives. Instead they end up working in restuarants,selling drugs and driving taxis.
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I wouldn't mix working with selling drugs or hanging around in a corner all day. Maybe Bollywood affects them more as a loser can become rich or hero in few months and have this beautiful girl. There were a few I knew in Pakistan who didn't care at all but they knew the father has a business and they will be there working and perhaps owning it and it would be bigger by that time.

Nothing wrong with driving taxi (I did something similar for a while) and it is work. Everyone starts from somewhere and some are able to achieve more than others. There are a few members here who do it or their parents did it and the kids are going to school. Selling drugs might be hard (mostly dangerous) but it is also laziness, a way to make a quick buck, choice in life they make and illegal
 
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MaVeRiCk said:
No offence but most of the uneducated, gangster wannabes are of Kaashmir origin (Mirpuri) and are usually based up north from Birmingham,Bradford etc. The educated pakistanis are mainly from Punjab and live in the southern terrorities of the UK. It may sound stereotypical but it is generally true.
I beleive the Mirpuri youngsters come from an uneducated ,village background hence education and a decent upbringing is not fundamental to their aims and objectives. Instead they end up working in restuarants,selling drugs and driving taxis.
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My mum seems to think this aswell. I think she sounds snobbish, but she always sounds really proud of the fact that she's from Karachi and also grew up in Lahore. Its seems like a class-war or something :98: .
 
KhushbuHussain said:
3. My father was 17 years old when he came to the UK. He couldn't speak a word of English. Back home he was from a small village, where hardly anyone was educated. His father (my dadaji) was an army soldier and my grandmother was uneducated. My fathers siblings were also uneducated. He came here, with no push from his parents and made a living for himself, and now he is a senior mechanical engineer working all over the world. Now to the point about being from an uneducated background. Yes sometimes it is true that your place of birth/growing up does play a big factor, but not all the time. It sometimes depends on your own determination to want to do something.
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That is the point. Determination and hard work are two things from which most Pakistanis run a mile. I know this is a sweeping genralisation, but the typical Pakistani will come over to England on the basis of a marriage visa with the sole ambition to become a taxi driver and thus avoid paying tax and claim maximum benefits. The children of such people then usually have no career ambitions either so fail in their own education and then become drug dealers or taxi drivers. At the serious risk of upsetting members here, I'm going to say that the problem is mainly with the Pakistanis who either come from Mirpur or have Mirpuri parents. That being said, its not the case with all Mirpuuris, just most of them. Most people from the bigger urban areas of Pakistan do not come to England to scrounge on benefits.

The Indians are culturally very different to Pakistanis. The focus in India is on an education, it is instilled in their culture. Take the example of cricketers; it is only in the rarest of situations that a Indian cricketer can't speak fluent English, and only on the rarest of situations when a Pakistani can. This is mainly due to the fact that India is in the process of industrialization and truly on the path of becoming the next world superpower. Pakistan however is on the road to destruction, branded by many as the most dangerous place on the planet. Education is therefore a key in Indian society, it is not in ours.

What really ****ed me of was when a few days ago, I read an article where a Pakistani with the full mulana beard appeared in a national newspaper, with a huge feast of food on his table. The article read that this man had claimed over £15k in benefits, over £3k in child benefits and God knows what else, but had the audacity to sit there and criticize the British Armed Forces very vocally for killing 'his people' in Afghanistan and elsewhere. This is the type of thing which creates real anger amongst Brits that here we are paying our taxes for this idiot to live in this country, enjoy his luxury life style with the welfare state and he has the balls to criticize British soldiers! Get the hell out of this country and go live with 'your people' you stupid man if you have such a problem! Honestly, these are the people who give Pakistanis a really bad name.
 
Usman said:
That is the point. Determination and hard work are two things from which most Pakistanis run a mile. I know this is a sweeping genralisation, but the typical Pakistani will come over to England on the basis of a marriage visa with the sole ambition to become a taxi driver and thus avoid paying tax and claim maximum benefits. The children of such people then usually have no career ambitions either so fail in their own education and then become drug dealers or taxi drivers. At the serious risk of upsetting members here, I'm going to say that the problem is mainly with the Pakistanis who either come from Mirpur or have Mirpuri parents. That being said, its not the case with all Mirpuuris, just most of them. Most people from the bigger urban areas of Pakistan do not come to England to scrounge on benefits.

The Indians are culturally very different to Pakistanis. The focus in India is on an education, it is instilled in their culture. Take the example of cricketers; it is only in the rarest of situations that a Indian cricketer can't speak fluent English, and only on the rarest of situations when a Pakistani can. This is mainly due to the fact that India is in the process of industrialization and truly on the path of becoming the next world superpower. Pakistan however is on the road to destruction, branded by many as the most dangerous place on the planet. Education is therefore a key in Indian society, it is not in ours.

What really ****ed me of was when a few days ago, I read an article where a Pakistani with the full mulana beard appeared in a national newspaper, with a huge feast of food on his table. The article read that this man had claimed over £15k in benefits, over £3k in child benefits and God knows what else, but had the audacity to sit there and criticize the British Armed Forces very vocally for killing 'his people' in Afghanistan and elsewhere. This is the type of thing which creates real anger amongst Brits that here we are paying our taxes for this idiot to live in this country, enjoy his luxury life style with the welfare state and he has the balls to criticize British soldiers! Get the hell out of this country and go live with 'your people' you stupid man if you have such a problem! Honestly, these are the people who give Pakistanis a really bad name.
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Is it also there fault that pakistan is a joke of a country it is now.
 
MaVeRiCk said:
No offence but most of the uneducated, gangster wannabes are of Kaashmir origin (Mirpuri) and are usually based up north from Birmingham,Bradford etc. The educated pakistanis are mainly from Punjab and live in the southern terrorities of the UK. It may sound stereotypical but it is generally true.
I beleive the Mirpuri youngsters come from an uneducated ,village background hence education and a decent upbringing is not fundamental to their aims and objectives. Instead they end up working in restuarants,selling drugs and driving taxis.
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you heard of Joak lane ? they're all plastics and almost all are mirpuri. Brum has alot of Kashmiris - i have cousins there and they're not- that are wannabe aswell but its definitely the mirpuri aka TPs that spoil our reputation.

i don't think Kashmiris are the same as mirpuri . . ? similar but not same - Jammu is where mirpuris are mainly from. not sure though
 
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mani1 said:
Is it also there fault that pakistan is a joke of a country it is now.
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No its not their fault that Pakistan is a joke, and I'm not blaming them for it. However, most uneducated Pakistanis from Mirpur come to England with the sole ambition of enjoying the easy life through tax evasion and living of the welfare state. They don't teach their kids any discipline but have plenty of them to rake in the child benefit. These kids then feature heavily in the tables for 'worst performing ethnic group at GCSE', because their parents are hardly an inspiration. It is a vicious, never ending cycle. This to an extent has to do with the lack of education in places like Mirpur, but when you've got one of the best educational systems in the world here in England and the kids are still failing big time, then you've got to point the finger at their parents who don't know the first thing about being determined and hardworking.
 
Usman said:
That is the point. Determination and hard work are two things from which most Pakistanis run a mile. I know this is a sweeping genralisation, but the typical Pakistani will come over to England on the basis of a marriage visa with the sole ambition to become a taxi driver and thus avoid paying tax and claim maximum benefits. The children of such people then usually have no career ambitions either so fail in their own education and then become drug dealers or taxi drivers. At the serious risk of upsetting members here, I'm going to say that the problem is mainly with the Pakistanis who either come from Mirpur or have Mirpuri parents. That being said, its not the case with all Mirpuuris, just most of them. Most people from the bigger urban areas of Pakistan do not come to England to scrounge on benefits.

The Indians are culturally very different to Pakistanis. The focus in India is on an education, it is instilled in their culture. Take the example of cricketers; it is only in the rarest of situations that a Indian cricketer can't speak fluent English, and only on the rarest of situations when a Pakistani can. This is mainly due to the fact that India is in the process of industrialization and truly on the path of becoming the next world superpower. Pakistan however is on the road to destruction, branded by many as the most dangerous place on the planet. Education is therefore a key in Indian society, it is not in ours.

What really ****ed me of was when a few days ago, I read an article where a Pakistani with the full mulana beard appeared in a national newspaper, with a huge feast of food on his table. The article read that this man had claimed over £15k in benefits, over £3k in child benefits and God knows what else, but had the audacity to sit there and criticize the British Armed Forces very vocally for killing 'his people' in Afghanistan and elsewhere. This is the type of thing which creates real anger amongst Brits that here we are paying our taxes for this idiot to live in this country, enjoy his luxury life style with the welfare state and he has the balls to criticize British soldiers! Get the hell out of this country and go live with 'your people' you stupid man if you have such a problem! Honestly, these are the people who give Pakistanis a really bad name.
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He is from London so by the assumptions made here he is punjabi and punjabis like hime give not only pakistanis but muslims a much worse name than some mirpuri drug dealer.
 
Usman said:
No its not their fault that Pakistan is a joke, and I'm not blaming them for it. However, most uneducated Pakistanis from Mirpur come to England with the sole ambition of enjoying the easy life through tax evasion and living of the welfare state. They don't teach their kids any discipline but have plenty of them to rake in the child benefit. These kids then feature heavily in the tables for 'worst performing ethnic group at GCSE', because their parents are hardly an inspiration. It is a vicious, never ending cycle. This to an extent has to do with the lack of education in places like Mirpur, but when you've got one of the best educational systems in the world here in England and the kids are still failing big time, then you've got to point the finger at their parents who don't know the first thing about being determined and hardworking.
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You got any proof of this or is it just what you want to believe when I went to school most of what you wrote described gujarkhanis and last I remember they are punjabis. I think people assume due to the similar language they are mirpuri they are not. Also majority of MPs are Mirpuris Lord Nazir is Mirpuri are they jahil and uneducated too. Also in Bradford most of the "gangsters" are pathan or punjabi (gujarkhan)same as "back home"
 
Usman, I think you have expressed the most widely held belief about the problesm of Pakistani society in Britain. I feel as we are all Pakistanis after all, that we need to help these ambitionless less children (before they become that way!) regardless of where they are from in Pakistan. I think most of the older generation have stuck to their regional groups (probably my parents included) and aren't friends with many people from different districts, although one of my dad's very good friends is Mirpuri (albeit the friend is a hard-wroking professional who speaks perfect english).

We need to be more integrated into mainstream society (as a community I mean) so that youngsters can see all the opportunities that can be had and interact with many different types of people (becoming friends with them instead of making a gang and wanting to beat them up!). I think that would be a good start..
 
This North/South thing has got nothing to do with Punjabi's/Mirpuri's (I am originally from Punjab and grew up in the North), but mainly to do with 2 facts.

1. The Pakistani's came to work in the cotton mills of the North, which closed down in the mid/late 70's, resulting in mass unemployment in the Pakistani communities of the North in the 80's..

2. This also coincided with the children of the 1st generation immigrants reaching their late teens/early 20's, and, as I have mentioned in my earlier post, the mass drive to marry them off (-especially the girls), so as to bring in fiance's (son/daughters of their brothers/sisters) to the UK.

Thus you had a situation whereby one partner had grown up in the UK from a young age, with Parents/brothers/sisters living in the UK, whilst the other came over as a fiance, ie as an adult with Parents/bothers/sisters still in Pakistan.

The children of these marriages were now a product of two cultures - a British Pakistani culture frozen in time/attitudes of the 60's/70's, and an evolving Pakistani culture from the 80's.

Add to that the desire of the Parent who had arrived as a fiance to see his/her own parents/brothers/sisters back in Pakistan, thus saving every penny to send to them, or pay for tickets to go and see them, and also drag the children out of school to go with them.

So what did you get? No job for the parents due to mass unemployment, and any spare money that was available was sent back or spent on tickets/presents going back, with the result that the children were deprived of 'goodies' along with being dragged out of school frequently, sometimes for months at a time.

Result? - No education.

And when these children became of marriageable age, why not get fiance's from the children of the brothers/sisters of the parent who himself/herself came over a fiance?

Thus the process was repeated - over and over again.

Look around you - see how many Pakistani children are married to others from the UK and how many to fiance's from Pakistan - and also see if their parents follow the same pattern.

One last thing.
If the fiance who came over was male, he was more likely to send money back, especially to support his parents.
If the fiance who came over was female, she was unlikely to work and just be a housewife, thus only one income coming into the house.

Either way, not as much money spent on the kids compared with those kids whose both parents grew up in the UK, and both likely to be working, thus having 2 incomes coming into the house. (link between Poverty and lack of education?)
 
No offence but most of the uneducated, gangster wannabes are of Kaashmir origin (Mirpuri) and are usually based up north from Birmingham,Bradford etc. The educated pakistanis are mainly from Punjab and live in the southern terrorities of the UK. It may sound stereotypical but it is generally true.
I beleive the Mirpuri youngsters come from an uneducated ,village background hence education and a decent upbringing is not fundamental to their aims and objectives. Instead they end up working in restuarants,selling drugs and driving taxis.
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The usual anti mirpurii prejudice rearing its ugly head again

The fact is mirpuris have worked in this country and sent money back to mirpur to make it the most affluent part of pakistan today, if people find their habits or traditions 'backwards' and look down at them, then the issue is with them and no i'm not mirpuri myself.

The second issue about drug dealing, against its do with poverty and unemployment and opportunity rather then being born to sell drugs because you have a mirpuri gene. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon and not everyone is driven to want to be a doctor or lawyer.
 
You dont need a degree in you back pocket to be successful.

There is nothing wrong with the path taken by some Pakistani youth. These individuals have made a series of choices which effects no body but them selves. They are reaping the positive and negative consequences of their decisions.
 
chacha kashmiri said:
The second issue about drug dealing, against its do with poverty and unemployment and opportunity rather then being born to sell drugs because you have a mirpuri gene. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon and not everyone is driven to want to be a doctor or lawyer.
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There is nothing wrong with selling drugs. I say good luck to drug dealers, drug traffickers and victimless criminals everywhere. They are providing products to the market etc etc


And to the poster who wants increase in integration; why? Why is assimilation good? Why do you care if they assimilate? NO BODY SHOULD HAVE TO assimilate if they don't want to because people should be free to choose how they live as long as they don't hurt anyone else.
 
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There is nothing wrong with selling drugs. I say good luck to drug dealers, drug traffickers and victimless criminals everywhere. They are providing products to the market etc etc
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I dont agree with you there but there are double standards. Pharmacists are just legal drug dealers and you could say so are pubs and off licences. Drug abuse leads to criminal acts as does alcohol abuse.


And to the poster who wants increase in integration; why? but why is assimilation good? Why do you care if they assimilate? NO BODY SHOULD HAVE TO assimilate if they don't want to because people should be free to choose how they live as long as they don't hurt anyone else.
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Agree with you there.
 
At the end of the day one must understand that the parent or parents have a major influence in the way that the child turns out. If the parents are educated and professionals it is extremely unlikley their son is going to turn out to be a drug dealer.

Im not saying this is always the case but if the parents are uneducated then it is less likely that they will encourage or instill that spirit of education amongst their offspring.

Its also a lack of islamic values amoungst some of the older generation and younger generation with more emphasis being put on culture which is another reason for the miserable situation of SOME youngsters mainly attributed to the villages that they hail from.
 
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I have to put some things straight here. My father is from mainland Pakistan and mum from the southern parts of Kashmir. We had a humble upbringing.

There is quite a substantial anti-Kashmiri sentiment amonst mainland Pakistanis, especially amongst the community that settled in the UK.

Some of it is justified in that the Kashmiris are at the forefront of dodgy stuff as explained above.

However, in response to 'Usman' above, we have roots in Kashmir- so how do you explain from a poor background without help from dodginess, all four of us in my family have all attained very good professions?

I find that the people from Kashmiri background as such don't integrate enough and can be fairly backwards and see people from Lahore etc as being uppety and toffee-nosed. However, it is also the responsibility of the people from the likes of Lahore, Faisalabad etc to also stop looking down on the people that are from a Kashmiri background.
I see things from both sides of the fence: but surely the division explains why the Pakistani community in Britain is in a dire state right now?

To put you all right: the Pakistani community in the UK are 70% from Kashmir. Most of the other 30% are from London and Scotland- in Scotland, most are originally from Faisalabad.

I await your responses, especially Usman

p.s. i consider myself a Pakistani that is also proud of his Kashmiri roots rather than the other way around
 
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To be perfectly honest,its not all kashniris that are backwards, uneducated,drug dealing etc but there is a healthy proportion that are mainly due to the fact that education is not considered a prime importance in many families due to their parents coming from the village background. Thats fact that cannot be denied. However i know of some kashmiris who are educated and hence that is passed down to their offspring.

One more thing the rest of the pakistanis that are mainly in the south are mainly from cities in Punjab and not restricted to faisalabad.
 
sure.in the south people are from lahore, gujranwala,pindi etcetera .we are from pindi. fact about kashmir and education here in uk cannot be denied but you fail to discuss how kashmiris dont integrate or the fact that many mainland folk look at kashmiris as being low lives
 
KhushbuHussain said:
Sometimes it is just the family background and lack of motivation, and sometimes it's just peer pressure and making yourself look cool and getting "street credibility". And believe it or not, people like this are dragging asian society down in one way or another. :po:
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Bro Im not too sure where youre from, but street fame is seen as very important to Pakistanis living in deprived areas. They have witnessed drug dealers who have "made it" and hope they can be like them some day. Indians cant survive on the streets, Pakistanis can. We're born thugs bro, lets face it! lol
 
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There are too many uneducated people in Pakistan (a lot more than UK). They work hard be it driving trucks, taxis, mazdori, servants, cottage industries etc. They earn a lot less than the UK people. Differences are that in Pakistan there are no social welfare programs or lack of decent to good public educational institutions. Some people take the easy way out or they think they are better than others. Maybe it is too many things given for free
 
Riff said:
Bro Im not too sure where youre from, but street fame is seen as very important to Pakistanis living in deprived areas. They have witnessed drug dealers who have "made it" and hope they can be like them some day. Indians cant survive on the streets, Pakistanis can. We're born thugs bro, lets face it! lol
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I seriously hope this is a joke. If not, I've known plenty of people who've been into that type of street culture (even one of my best friends growing up) because they think they're being cool. Yeah, jail is really cool, having dumb friends with no future is even better.

And what do you mean survive on the streets? Like you don't have a house with internet and get your mum to cook you food everyday?
 
Having been born and brought up in an inner city area of Birmingham called Aston which in the 80s and 90s was known for its drugs and violent gang culture, I count myself lucky that even going to school with a lot of guys who have ended up in long term prison sentences due to drugs or other crime, by the grace of Allah I didn't do too badly going on to uni and getting a degree and masters degree.. and a decent job now.

Here's my view on it - sadly I have to agree the majority of these 'troublemakers', so-called 'gangstas' , who give the Pakistan community in this country such a bad image, are from Mirpur side..

For my education I am grateful to my father, who incidentally also had to struggle here in the 60s and 70s working in factory, but he had an ambition in life -- one that he could not fulfil himself, but he wanted his kids to have a good education. He worked hard to make this dream come true, like many of our parents have I am sure, making sacrifices for their own needs but ensuring that we dont have any need unfulfilled that could affect our education.

The one thing I will say in my experience, which I say having lived in a Mirpuri community and grown up with these guys, and from the interaction I have had with Mirpuri people in most cases (without offence), is they do not seem to any ideals or expectations from their kids -- its like , they don't encourage them when it comes to things like education or finding good jobs etc. ITs just a case of trying to abuse the welfare benefits system, make the most of everything you can get for FREE in this country and sadly, this is why their kids grow up in such an environment where they are not getting the proper guidance, so they end up on the wrong path such as drugs, crimes, 'gangsta-culture' etc. And its almost like they take pride in their failure in life, in terms of lack of education and being unemployed -- mind you why should they want to work hard when they see parents doing nothing and getting money from state benefits, elder brothers and cousins with no education selling weed and now driving BMW cars on Alum Rock Road, pumping the loud music..

Another thing you find now particularly in the younger generation of Mirpuris, their is very little 'tameez' for elders, they speak to people with such disrespect, use filthy language on an everyday basis.. not just English but in Mirupuri, they know the dirtiest of swear words which in many cases you can be sure they have grown up hearing them from their elder generation. This is sadly the culture that is giving the PAk community a bad name,

I am sure there are exceptions to this rule, but I can say in my experience having lived in Birmingham and gone to school with a lot of guys who end up in crime, sadly a large percentage of the Mirpuri community do fit this stereotype 110%.

PS - I am from Gujar Khan , and no we are not all angels - I have had some cousins who have gone into the wrong path (but sadly I will say again, their negative influence has come from Mirpuri friends they have grown up with.. and I would class them as wannabe MPs).
 
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I've gotta say that some of the Mirpuri Vs. Punjabi stuff is the biggest nonsense i've ever read, as well as the North/South divide.

I'm Punjabi myself and to say that Punjabis, specifically the youth, are significantly different to Mirpuris is a joke. I'm from Reading and some of the 'biggest' (read Notorious) drug dealers are Punjabi (Faisalabadi, Jhelumi, Gujarati). Mirpuris aren't any better and even Pathans for that matter but Punjabi youth are just as much responsible for criminal activities. I have a lot of family in Blackburn too and it's the same story there. There are cities where the Mirpuris make up the largest minority of Pakistanis, which is why some people have this overly negative view of them compared to other ethnic Pakistani groups.

As for those that think the better educated Pakistanis live in the South of UK, they probably haven't heard of or visited parts of East London such as Ilford, East Ham and Walthamstow. Then we have parts of Southall, Slough (Chalvey and Manor Park) and Bristol.

Again in Reading where i'm from, 80% of Black cab drivers are Pakistani and an even higher proportion of Private hire drivers.
 
There may be a couple of factors contributing to this sad scenario. I guess it dates back to east india company when the English took over India. It has been proven by historical facts that indian muslim population was systematically restricted from getting educated. I have to dig out the source but from a vague memory, I think it was something like, in a matter of 50 years education ratio went drastically down among the indian muslim population and it went astronomically high among the indian hindu population under the English rule. Sir Syed and a couple of other Muslim leaders identified the hidden agenda and resisted against it by encouraging muslims to go back to schools and get the “F” educated but the tide was too high to be stopped. The VALUE OF EDUCATION was never released by the indian muslims as it was picked up by the hindu population. It simply has become part of our psyche and part of genes now. The ground breaking stones were set at this point and today we see the results.
Trust me, it’s not only in UK, we have the same scenario here in United States. Indians (99.99% hindus) are moving forward in leaps and bounds in educational endeavors while knowing the value of getting education and academic excellence is just not in our blood (except for the few exceptional cases).
 
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Wasim_Waqar said:
I have to put some things straight here. My father is from mainland Pakistan and mum from the southern parts of Kashmir. We had a humble upbringing.

There is quite a substantial anti-Kashmiri sentiment amonst mainland Pakistanis, especially amongst the community that settled in the UK.

Some of it is justified in that the Kashmiris are at the forefront of dodgy stuff as explained above.

However, in response to 'Usman' above, we have roots in Kashmir- so how do you explain from a poor background without help from dodginess, all four of us in my family have all attained very good professions?

I find that the people from Kashmiri background as such don't integrate enough and can be fairly backwards and see people from Lahore etc as being uppety and toffee-nosed. However, it is also the responsibility of the people from the likes of Lahore, Faisalabad etc to also stop looking down on the people that are from a Kashmiri background.
I see things from both sides of the fence: but surely the division explains why the Pakistani community in Britain is in a dire state right now?

To put you all right: the Pakistani community in the UK are 70% from Kashmir. Most of the other 30% are from London and Scotland- in Scotland, most are originally from Faisalabad.

I await your responses, especially Usman

p.s. i consider myself a Pakistani that is also proud of his Kashmiri roots rather than the other way around
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As I've said before, not all Mirpuris in this country are involved in drugs/benefit thieves etc. I realise that there will be many Mirpuris out there who are on the right path and are very successful. At the same time I realise that there are many 'mainland' Pakistanis in this country who will be on the wrong path and heading for destruction.

However, I will maintain that simply from living in this country from birth and seeing all the different Pakistani communities that exist in this country, it is by far the case that those who have immigrated from Mirpur and their children who are born here, are most certainly the most problematic Pakistanis in this country. That doesn't mean that the parents are necessarily bad people, although some of them are because they've come to this country to play the system. But even those that are good parents, they were still never educated so do not have the ambition to make something of their lives, hence the taxi driver businesses and benefit thieving. They mostly don't value education so don't give any importance on their children receiving it. The end result is that these children go on to become the druggies, taxi drivers and benefit thieves themselves.

That said, there are some Mirpuri parents who do have some determination and want their children to have a better life than they had. Its usually the children of these parents that end up in successful careers. But again, these are in the minority.
 
This is shocking. I have Pakistani friends all of whom are achieving up to 8 or 9 A* grades. How can we be at the bottom ?
 
Mohsin said:
I dont think things have changed much, i think the bottom 3 are Pakistani, Bengali and Caribbean unfortunately.
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But take u and Kushbu's grades as an example. They are far better than normal. So how can this be the overall case ?
 
i should know i live in east london!!!

i dont get it either, why whenever this sort of topic comes up people always generalise these gangster wannabes to be from 'mirpur' first and then somewhere else, fact is we're all pakistanis dont matter where you came from or how good/bad your background was.... my parents were poor my dad came to this country when he ws 18 and he never wanted to my dadabu sent him here he was fine living in pakistan, and he achieved nothing here the benefit system is such an easy trap to fall into its also unbelievable how many young kids are already on Job seekers allowance rather than looking for work or studying...

i do have friends in bham and yorkshire and yeh they all sound typical to me too but some of them are the nicest people ive met, these cities have been generalised so badly that if we aint from there we're quick to jump that they do drugs, into crime, wannabe gangsters etc not all guys and girls are like that, and no im not from there but i am from the roughest part of london its mixed here its not bad in just few places its everywhere now - same s*** goes on in pakistan too, i know in UK we have much more opportunities and welfare to have a better life than these kids do in pakistan but still its no excuse (i have experience from my own sibling and all i can say is NO it is not entirely the fault of the parents other things and people are an influence too)
 
BoomBoomCricket said:
This is shocking. I have Pakistani friends all of whom are achieving up to 8 or 9 A* grades. How can we be at the bottom ?
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They must be mummy daddy boys who can't survive on the streets :pissed:
 
But even those that are good parents, they were still never educated so do not have the ambition to make something of their lives, hence the taxi driver businesses and benefit thieving. They mostly don't value education so don't give any importance on their children receiving it. The end result is that these children go on to become the druggies, taxi drivers and benefit thieves themselves.
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Taxi drivers earn more then teachers so i don't know what we're basing our prejudice on apart from snobbery.
 
“It has been proven by historical facts that indian muslim population was systematically restricted from getting educated. I have to dig out the source but from a vague memory”.

Will be waiting eagerly for the source and clarification about the exact method used to enforce this exclusionary policy. BTW, could you also shed light on the supposed ‘motivation’ the Brits had behind this policy apparently specifically targeted against Muslims, is it?

“It simply has become part of our psyche and part of genes now.”
Some kinda accelerated genetic evolution that is religion based??? Wow…Darwin was all wrong!! :13:

“Indians (99.99% hindus)”
Could you also kindly point me to the source for this religious breakdown of Indians in the US?
 
agreed. the mirpuris are a race with no values in general for education. at uni, hardly knew any
 
chacha kashmiri said:
Taxi drivers earn more then teachers so i don't know what we're basing our prejudice on apart from snobbery.
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Oh please! Don't get me started on scum bags that are Mirpuri taxi drivers. They all submit income tax forms saying they earn below the minimum wage to be taxed, when in actual fact they are minting money. Unlike other professions where you earn a salary, taxi drivers are paid in cash and they ensure the cash is not traceable by storing all the money at home. Then they claim full benefits to supplement their already tax free incomes. Why do you think the country is full of Pakistani taxi drivers and not other low profile professions, like say Bus drivers? It's far too easy to play the system in this country and that is why so many of these stupid people come here.

It's not snobbery when you point out the quite frankly disgusting habits of all Mirpuri taxi drivers which are costing ME THE HONEST TAX PAYER. An honest Taxi driver in this country does not earn more than a teacher (salary of a teacher ranges from around £23k-£70k for headmasters). Unfortunately, there is not a SINGLE honest Mirpuri taxi driver in the land. FACT. So Mirpuri taxi drivers do earn more than most teachers through thieving. The fact that I know of many such people who also claim to be religious just makes me cringe.

There are loads of people here who think I've got some sort of prejudice against Mirpuris. That is not the case at all - after all they are the same race as me. I do however hate the way most live their lives and give all Pakistanis a bad name.
 
Generalisations are a dangerous a game. Do you not get pissed off when the British media insinuates that all Muslims are terrorists? Dont fall into the same trap.

The main reason why so many of the British-Pak scumbags are of Mirpuri origin is simply because the Mirpuris are the prevalent Brit-Paks in this country. Largely a numbers game.

Of course, education and class do come into the equation as most of the immigrants from Pak in the 60's/70's came from Mirpur to work in the textile factories in the North of England. Unlike their illiterate Indian counterparts, the Pakistani did not appreciate the value of education of their children, nor did they generally strive for upwardly mobile social climbing. Instead, they seemed content in their ghettos.

And lets not blame it on the lack of opportunities or social deprevation. Some of the highest achievers in the sub-group 'British Asians' are the offspring of the East African communities. Their parents were kicked out of Uganda by Amin the 1970's with **** all, yet they still established thriving. educated communities through hardwork and education. Massively outachieving their South Asian brothers despite have arriving a decade later - with no money/assets - and no existing community support to rely on.

Not a MP problem, but a Pakistani problem IMO.
 
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jaspa888 said:
Generalisations are a dangerous a game. Do you not get pissed off when the British media insinuates that all Muslims are terrorists? Dont fall into the same trap.

The main reason why so many of the British-Pak scumbags are of Mirpuri origin is simply because the Mirpuris are the prevalent Brit-Paks in this country. Largely a numbers game.

Of course, education and class do come into the equation as most of the immigrants from Pak in the 60's/70's came from Mirpur to work in the textile factories in the North of England. Unlike their illiterate Indian counterparts, the Pakistani did not appreciate the value of education of their children, nor did they generally strive for upwardly mobile social climbing. Instead, they seemed content in their ghettos.

And lets not blame it on the lack of opportunities or social deprevation. Some of the highest achievers in the sub-group 'British Asians' are the offspring of the East African communities. Their parents were kicked out of Uganda by Amin the 1970's with **** all, yet they still established thriving. educated communities through hardwork and education. Massively outachieving their South Asian brothers despite have arriving a decade later - with no money/assets - and no existing community support to rely on.

Not a MP problem, but a Pakistani problem IMO.
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Spot on especially the part in bold. It's a Pakistani problem and those who label it as just a Mirpuri problem are being ignorant.
 
i am disgusted and outraged by some of the comments made about Mirpuries,it is unjust and uncalled for just shows how much some people hate people from other back grounds this problem has existed back home,punjabies to Balochi,Sindi,Pakhtoons.Raja, Malik,chaudhary,Shia sunni,Deobandi brelvi, wahbies,
from Attock to Jehlum,Rawalpindi,Gujar khan a huge area this belt of punjab speak almost same language as Mirpuries, it is very hard to differentiate who is from where.
I am kashmiri my grandfather came to this country in 1930's he did door business as indian man with his suitcase. my father came in 1952 worked hard in steel industry in sheffield,as for as i can remember my father never claimed any benefit,they worked very hard for up to sixteen hours a day to support their families back home and thus these people contributed greatly to Pakistan's economy,four of my children are in universities, and i hope they will contribute to this country as members of our family contributed to this country's economy.
But i do agree that most of people who came from such Area as pohtowar mirpur,Attock were illiterate thus were unable to provide their children sound foundation for their education, also the Education in these parts of country is next to none ,
as far as drugs and taxi driving etc. no one as parents want their children to go down these routes, (exception of few) part of problem is education, discrimination in schools as well as work places how many degree holder people we know that are driving taxis or unemployed because they cannot get a decent job because of colour of their skin,I personally had to go lengths to fight for my son when he was
discriminated against in school,leaving him out of triple science, discrimination is Rife in this country specially where their is higher unemployment,so people are left to do the jobs no one else wants to do.

can anybody anti Kashmiri , Mirpuri ,who is responsible for the predicament Pakistan finds it self in today,?is Zardari Mirpuri,(mr 10%)was Musharaf mirpuri, who had total disregard for law and its system and more,
most of the leaders we had in Pakistan drained that country to fill their own Bank accounts,was their one of them Kashmiri or Mirpuri,
Allama Iqbal was Kashmiri.

what about the situation in Pakistan today and days gone by in Karachi no one is safe to walk down the street at night in many cities of Pakistan,you will not have this sort of problem in Mirpur.

can we grow out of this and and address the problems and challenges we are facing today,discrimination against muslims,in education,in employment because the colour of your skin,and also raise the awareness of good education to our fellow brothers who are taxi drivers or takeaway workers or any other profession that maybe.
 
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Usman said:
Oh please! Don't get me started on scum bags that are Mirpuri taxi drivers. They all submit income tax forms saying they earn below the minimum wage to be taxed, when in actual fact they are minting money. Unlike other professions where you earn a salary, taxi drivers are paid in cash and they ensure the cash is not traceable by storing all the money at home. Then they claim full benefits to supplement their already tax free incomes. Why do you think the country is full of Pakistani taxi drivers and not other low profile professions, like say Bus drivers? It's far too easy to play the system in this country and that is why so many of these stupid people come here.

It's not snobbery when you point out the quite frankly disgusting habits of all Mirpuri taxi drivers which are costing ME THE HONEST TAX PAYER. An honest Taxi driver in this country does not earn more than a teacher (salary of a teacher ranges from around £23k-£70k for headmasters). Unfortunately, there is not a SINGLE honest Mirpuri taxi driver in the land. FACT. So Mirpuri taxi drivers do earn more than most teachers through thieving. The fact that I know of many such people who also claim to be religious just makes me cringe.

There are loads of people here who think I've got some sort of prejudice against Mirpuris. That is not the case at all - after all they are the same race as me. I do however hate the way most live their lives and give all Pakistanis a bad name.
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I see nothing wrong with what these mirpuri taxi drivers are doing. Cheating the system should be encouraged not stigmatized.
 
Liberty said:
I see nothing wrong with what these mirpuri taxi drivers are doing. Cheating the system should be encouraged not stigmatized.
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Yeah so honest taxpayers lose out? :pissed:
 
Liberty said:
I see nothing wrong with what these mirpuri taxi drivers are doing. Cheating the system should be encouraged not stigmatized.
Click to expand...

Stupid, ill-thought, devisive comment.

The welfare state is there to protect the weakest members of society and depends on distribution of wealth through taxation revenue. If people do not pay there taxes, then who pays for the free schooling, free health, state pensions, welfare cheques, etc?
 
Splinter said:
Yeah so honest taxpayers lose out? :pissed:
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Honesty? You are only paying taxes because you and I both know the consequences of taking the kings shillings. Out of all the people in society it is only the government that obtains income stream through coercive means.

Taxation is theft on a grand scale; there is no ifs and buts about this.

jaspa888 said:
Stupid, ill-thought, devisive comment.

The welfare state is there to protect the weakest members of society and depends on distribution of wealth through taxation revenue. If people do not pay there taxes, then who pays for the free schooling, free health, state pensions, welfare cheques, etc?
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Only a fraction of government revenue is actually spend on the above programs. Vast amount spend on illegal wars, bureaucratic system etc etc. As for the welfare state.....maybe a debate for another day.

As for my statement, why shouldn't People find non-violent means to extract as much money from the government as possible? We all want to pay as little tax as possible. It's not wrong that we circumvent any regulations which we dont agree with that has been forced upon us.
 
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Liberty said:
It's not wrong that we circumvent any regulations which we dont agree with that has been forced upon us.
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What do you mean forced? If you don't like the taxes here you can leave. Anyway, here's another thing.

People who try and be all religious and do dodgy tax/benefit stuff. Surely they will go to hell for being dishonest/theft?

Surely a crime can never be justified.
 
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qadoos said:
i am disgusted and outraged by some of the comments made about Mirpuries,it is unjust and uncalled for just shows how much some people hate people from other back grounds this problem has existed back home,punjabies to Balochi,Sindi,Pakhtoons.Raja, Malik,chaudhary,Shia sunni,Deobandi brelvi, wahbies,
from Attock to Jehlum,Rawalpindi,Gujar khan a huge area this belt of punjab speak almost same language as Mirpuries, it is very hard to differentiate who is from where.
I am kashmiri my grandfather came to this country in 1930's he did door business as indian man with his suitcase. my father came in 1952 worked hard in steel industry in sheffield,as for as i can remember my father never claimed any benefit,they worked very hard for up to sixteen hours a day to support their families back home and thus these people contributed greatly to Pakistan's economy,four of my children are in universities, and i hope they will contribute to this country as members of our family contributed to this country's economy.
But i do agree that most of people who came from such Area as pohtowar mirpur,Attock were illiterate thus were unable to provide their children sound foundation for their education, also the Education in these parts of country is next to none ,
as far as drugs and taxi driving etc. no one as parents want their children to go down these routes, (exception of few) part of problem is education, discrimination in schools as well as work places how many degree holder people we know that are driving taxis or unemployed because they cannot get a decent job because of colour of their skin,I personally had to go lengths to fight for my son when he was
discriminated against in school,leaving him out of triple science, discrimination is Rife in this country specially where their is higher unemployment,so people are left to do the jobs no one else wants to do.

can anybody anti Kashmiri , Mirpuri ,who is responsible for the predicament Pakistan finds it self in today,?is Zardari Mirpuri,(mr 10%)was Musharaf mirpuri, who had total disregard for law and its system and more,
most of the leaders we had in Pakistan drained that country to fill their own Bank accounts,was their one of them Kashmiri or Mirpuri,
Allama Iqbal was Kashmiri.

what about the situation in Pakistan today and days gone by in Karachi no one is safe to walk down the street at night in many cities of Pakistan,you will not have this sort of problem in Mirpur.

can we grow out of this and and address the problems and challenges we are facing today,discrimination against muslims,in education,in employment because the colour of your skin,and also raise the awareness of good education to our fellow brothers who are taxi drivers or takeaway workers or any other profession that maybe.
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Qadoos, I completely agree with the points that you make in this post. The amount of racial slurs and typecasts being directed at Mirpuri’s is simply unbelievable. I am also of Kashmiri/ Mirpuri background, and I can categorically tell you that my father always emphasised the importance of education and this was something that my uncles also encouraged. All I remember from a young age is how hard my father and my uncles worked to ensure we had a good standard of living.

With the grace of Allah, and with the prayers of my parents, I was able to get through university, complete my professional studies, work for the two biggest accounting firms in the world and set up my own accountancy practice, achieving all of this having been married from the age of 17, and now having 6 beautiful children.

Although this may come as a surprise to some of the posters on this website, but within our close Mirpuri family we have quite a few university educated individuals with degrees in various topics such as Law, Engineering and IT, and amongst my brothers and cousins we have well-respected university lecturers in law, IT professionals, teachers and consultants.

Admittedly, within our family we have taxi drivers and restaurant owners/ workers, but I would much rather have this then someone who does not work at all and just claims benefits. The point is, it is wrong for us to judge an entire group of people based on a random sampling. I have travelled to many countries around the world and, unfortunately, Pakistanis have a bad reputation and, this may surprise some posters, a majority of these Pakistanis were not from Mirpur but Punjab, Sind etc.

As someone mentioned in one of the earlier posts, the Mirpuris make up a significant proportion of the Pakistani population in this country and are visible. However, it is wrong to attribute all of the bad to the Mirpuris. The Bangladeshis in this country have also performed badly in their education, but this cannot also be attributed to the Mirpuri population (although ironically they seem to have a major city called Mirpur).

Amongst some of the blatant anti-Mirpuri rhetoric on this thread, some posters have highlighted some really good causes for this perceived weakness in education amongst the Pakistani youth in this country. If you kid yourself into believing that all of the ills are attributable to Mirpuris, then you are simply sticking your head in the sand.
 
Liberty said:
Only a fraction of government revenue is actually spend on the above programs. Vast amount spend on illegal wars, bureaucratic system etc etc. As for the welfare state.....maybe a debate for another day.

As for my statement, why shouldn't People find non-violent means to extract as much money from the government as possible? We all want to pay as little tax as possible. It's not wrong that we circumvent any regulations which we dont agree with that has been forced upon us.
Click to expand...

There is a massive difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion, which is what you are advocating.

The whole of what we term 'society' would disintegrate if we all refused to pay our dues. And it would be the weakest members of society that would be affected by this behaviour, not the fat cats.

And it wouldnt be at the expense of illegal wars either.
 
Jaane Bhi Do Yaaron said:
“It has been proven by historical facts that indian muslim population was systematically restricted from getting educated. I have to dig out the source but from a vague memory”.

Will be waiting eagerly for the source and clarification about the exact method used to enforce this exclusionary policy. BTW, could you also shed light on the supposed ‘motivation’ the Brits had behind this policy apparently specifically targeted against Muslims, is it?

“It simply has become part of our psyche and part of genes now.”
Some kinda accelerated genetic evolution that is religion based??? Wow…Darwin was all wrong!! :13:

“Indians (99.99% hindus)”
Could you also kindly point me to the source for this religious breakdown of Indians in the US?
Click to expand...

Lets start by Qudrat ullah Shahaab's "Shahaab nama" ... How long ago did u read it?
 
Usman said:
Oh please! Don't get me started on scum bags that are Mirpuri taxi drivers. They all submit income tax forms saying they earn below the minimum wage to be taxed, when in actual fact they are minting money. Unlike other professions where you earn a salary, taxi drivers are paid in cash and they ensure the cash is not traceable by storing all the money at home. Then they claim full benefits to supplement their already tax free incomes. Why do you think the country is full of Pakistani taxi drivers and not other low profile professions, like say Bus drivers? It's far too easy to play the system in this country and that is why so many of these stupid people come here.

It's not snobbery when you point out the quite frankly disgusting habits of all Mirpuri taxi drivers which are costing ME THE HONEST TAX PAYER. An honest Taxi driver in this country does not earn more than a teacher (salary of a teacher ranges from around £23k-£70k for headmasters). Unfortunately, there is not a SINGLE honest Mirpuri taxi driver in the land. FACT. So Mirpuri taxi drivers do earn more than most teachers through thieving. The fact that I know of many such people who also claim to be religious just makes me cringe.

There are loads of people here who think I've got some sort of prejudice against Mirpuris. That is not the case at all - after all they are the same race as me. I do however hate the way most live their lives and give all Pakistanis a bad name.
Click to expand...

Just to let you know, just because yout type the word fact in capital letters and in front of a statement, does not actually make it a fact

To suggest there is not a SINGLE "honest" Mirpuri taxi driver in the land is frankly garbage because i know of an "honest" one, ME

As for you having some sort of prejudice against Mirpuri's? Its pretty blatant - the anger and the vitriol is seeping through every sentence you posted above. You should chill out
 
Geordie Ahmed said:
Just to let you know, just because yout type the word fact in capital letters and in front of a statement, does not actually make it a fact

To suggest there is not a SINGLE "honest" Mirpuri taxi driver in the land is frankly garbage because i know of an "honest" one, ME

As for you having some sort of prejudice against Mirpuri's? Its pretty blatant - the anger and the vitriol is seeping through every sentence you posted above. You should chill out
Click to expand...

Well GA, my comments were based on what I've seen with my own eyes. It's not called prejudice when you base an opinion on what you've seen. And perhaps I am angry, and why shouldn't I be at the disgusting habits I've seen? You expect me to sit here and say 'it's all cool, you keep enjoying your luxurious life whilst I work my as* off, pay my taxes and watch you reap the benefits of my hard labour'.

In the town I live, there are plenty of Mirpuri taxi drivers - hundreds of them. I personally know many of them, and not a single one is honest. You may be the one exception, so perhaps a better way of putting it is that 99% of all Mirpuri taxi drivers are not honest, if that makes you happy. But if you deny that GA, then I'm afraid you're living in some fantasy land.

Some people do not want me to point out the problems of Pakistani Brits because it exposes their own communities. I know I'm not a racist, nor do I hold prejudices against anyone I meet. You can believe whatever you want, but I'm not scared of speaking the truth.
 
Usman said:
Well GA, my comments were based on what I've seen with my own eyes. It's not called prejudice when you base an opinion on what you've seen. And perhaps I am angry, and why shouldn't I be at the disgusting habits I've seen? You expect me to sit here and say 'it's all cool, you keep enjoying your luxurious life whilst I work my as* off, pay my taxes and watch you reap the benefits of my hard labour'.

In the town I live, there are plenty of Mirpuri taxi drivers - hundreds of them. I personally know many of them, and not a single one is honest. You may be the one exception, so perhaps a better way of putting it is that 99% of all Mirpuri taxi drivers are not honest, if that makes you happy. But if you deny that GA, then I'm afraid you're living in some fantasy land.

Some people do not want me to point out the problems of Pakistani Brits because it exposes their own communities. I know I'm not a racist, nor do I hold prejudices against anyone I meet. You can believe whatever you want, but I'm not scared of speaking the truth.
Click to expand...

Luxurious life? Trust me a taxi driver is not a luxurious life, far from it. Not everybody makes good money out of it - from the outside looking in, it seems all rosy when you hear what a Taxi driver makes in a week - however do you know whether that guy owns his own taxi or does he rent? if he rents how much is he paying for that? how many hours does he work just to cover the rent? etc etc

Even those that do own their own taxi's, do make good money BUT its far from a luxurious life (trust me) - they work unsociable hourse, they hardly see their kids (which undoubtedly leads to the educational problem mentioned in this thread) and their main customers are drunks

Im lucky in that i have a degree and Inshallah i will get a job so this taxi driving is temporary for me - its not easy and i dont really blame people for trying to earn as much as they can whilst they can. A non educated taxi driver breaks his leg tomorrow, what on earth is he going to do?

Also the taxi driver "dishonesty" is not restricted to the Mirpuri community - its a taxi driver thing, whether they are white english, Bengali, Indian (admittedly not many of them), Afghan (more common now) etc etc and plenty of non Mirpuri Pakistani's as well - as another poster highlighted it just so happens to be that majority of Pakistani's in the UK are from Mirpur
 
Geordie Ahmed said:
Luxurious life? Trust me a taxi driver is not a luxurious life, far from it. Not everybody makes good money out of it - from the outside looking in, it seems all rosy when you hear what a Taxi driver makes in a week - however do you know whether that guy owns his own taxi or does he rent? if he rents how much is he paying for that? how many hours does he work just to cover the rent? etc etc

Even those that do own their own taxi's, do make good money BUT its far from a luxurious life (trust me) - they work unsociable hourse, they hardly see their kids (which undoubtedly leads to the educational problem mentioned in this thread) and their main customers are drunks

Im lucky in that i have a degree and Inshallah i will get a job so this taxi driving is temporary for me - its not easy and i dont really blame people for trying to earn as much as they can whilst they can. A non educated taxi driver breaks his leg tomorrow, what on earth is he going to do?

Also the taxi driver "dishonesty" is not restricted to the Mirpuri community - its a taxi driver thing, whether they are white english, Bengali, Indian (admittedly not many of them), Afghan (more common now) etc etc and plenty of non Mirpuri Pakistani's as well - as another poster highlighted it just so happens to be that majority of Pakistani's in the UK are from Mirpur
Click to expand...

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious, but if taxi drivers have such a hard life and are paid so little, then surely they could join other professions which pay similar low wages could they not? As I have already pointed out, there is a reason why there are so many more Mirpuri taxi drivers than bus drivers. And taxi drivers aren't stupid, they work night shifts voluntarily because it pays even more.

Let me give you this example: There is a Mirpuri taxi driver living on my street. He owns not one, not two but three houses. He has no mortgage on any of the properties, and two are rented out. His elderly mother lives with him. He applied for a council grant to build an extension to his house so that his mother doesn't have to climb up the stairs. Because he claims to earn below the minimum taxable income level, he was eligible for the full grant. With that graunt, he built a double story 3 bedroom, living room, one bathroom and an en suit extension to his house. He openly admits misguiding the government with tax claims and thieving full benefits off the state. Please do tell me GA, if this is not luxury living off the tax payer then what is?

This GA was just outrageous "i dont really blame people for trying to earn as much as they can whilst they can." Most honest people work really, really hard - many work much harder than any taxi driver could ever imagine. Does that then mean that we might as well all thieve from the state whilst we can? If not, then why? Why is it that you think Mirpuri taxi drivers come under some exception?

I absolutely despise it when people claim that what these people do is somehow ok and then if you disagree with it, then you hold a prejudice against them. And then you tell me to calm down GA!

And no GA its not a Pakistani thing in general. My parents came from mainland Pakistan with nothing and they worked hard for everything they got. The majority of mainland Pakistanis I've come across are not taxi drivers.
 
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