Unpopular Opinion: South Africa would've been a serial ICC events winner had Hansie Cronje been alive

[The Bald Eagle]

South Africa have won their one and only ICC mega event trophy ie ICC Knock Out trophy final 1998 that too without even a single loss in that whole tournament under Hansie Cronje. They also made it to the Semi-Final of ICC WC 1996 before crashing out due to Allan Donald's run out folly. The South African side looked formidable and at times invincible too under Hansie Cronje. Sachin Tendulkar also termed Cronje as the toughest bowler that he ever faced.

So the question is had the fate of South African team be any different, had Hansie Cronje lived long?

 

[DRsohail]

SA lost 96 and 99 while he was there, so It would have been there.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Your thoughts on their 1998 win in ICC Knock out tournament then?

SA lost 96 and 99 while he was there, so It would have been there.

 

[AAli98]

They were good in 98/99 only warne separated them & Australia.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

They were good in 98/99 only warne separated them & Australia.

Yep it was Alland Donald folly not choking that cost them WC 1999 besides Warne special.

No way were South Arica chokers then.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

South Africa's biggest choke in history came in 1999 under cronje

 

[The Bald Eagle]

South Africa's biggest choke in history came in 1999 under cronje

Bro if you are referring to that Semi-Final of WC 1999 then I disagree with your assertion it was a run out mess up not a choke.

 

[kingusama92]

Doubt it.

I have two reasons.

The first reason was his bowling had faded by that point in his career and he was only going to be older in 2003.

Plus, the Australians were still dominant throughout that time winning in 2003 and 2007 (if he made it that far). Also, the South Africans weren't as strong in 2003 even if you added Cronje.

Maybe they could have snuck in another CT win under him which the Aussies never took as seriously.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Cronje himself couldn't lead with his performances at the 99 World Cup.

Steve Waugh on the other hand stepped up even against tough opponents despite generally being an average ODI batter.

I was a massive Saffers fan, but man for man , they were not a match for the Aussies despite what bilateral results portrayed.

Nobody was. Not Pakistan either

The Waughs, Gilly, Ponting, Lehmann, Martyn , Bevan.

A bit too much quality in that lineup that neither SA nor PAK could match.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Cronje's phenomenal record as captain:

He captained the One Day International team to 99 wins out of 138 matches with one tied match and three no results. He holds the South African record for matches won as captain, and his record of captaining his side in 138 matches stands bettered only by Graeme Smith's 149 matches as ODI captain.

His 99 wins as captain makes him the fourth-most-successful captain worldwide in terms of matches won, behind Ricky Ponting, Allan Border and Mahendra Singh Dhoni and in terms of percentage of wins (73.70), behind Ponting and Clive Lloyd.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Doubt it.

I have two reasons.

The first reason was his bowling had faded by that point in his career and he was only going to be older in 2003.

Plus, the Australians were still dominant throughout that time winning in 2003 and 2007 (if he made it that far). Also, the South Africans weren't as strong in 2003 even if you added Cronje.

Maybe they could have snuck in another CT win under him which the Aussies never took as seriously.

No Ponting also won a ICC event in 35 years of age so did Clark.

Yep the Aussies of 2000s were formidable but not invincible.

Cronje himself couldn't lead with his performances at the 99 World Cup.

Steve Waugh on the other hand stepped up even against tough opponents despite generally being an average ODI batter.

I was a massive Saffers fan, but man for man , they were not a match for the Aussies despite what bilateral results portrayed.

Nobody was. Not Pakistan either

The Waughs, Gilly, Ponting, Lehmann, Martyn , Bevan.

A bit too much quality in that lineup that neither SA nor PAK could match.

In the 1998 ICC KnockOut Trophy Final, Cronje played a major role with the bat with his 61 not out, leading the team to victory by 4 wickets.

His form in 1999 may have been down but Dhoni and Clark also won WC on back of poor tournaments in 2011 and 2015. So Cronje's side may would have done that against Pak in 1999 WC final.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

No Ponting also won a ICC event in 35 years of age so did Clark.

Yep the Aussies of 2000s were formidable but not invincible.

In the 1998 ICC KnockOut Trophy Final, Cronje played a major role with the bat with his 61 not out, leading the team to victory by 4 wickets.

His form in 1999 may have been down but Dhoni and Clark also won WC on back of poor tournaments in 2011 and 2015. So Cronje's side may would have done that against Pak in 1999 WC final.

Well dhoni was motm in the final, even clarke played well in the final. Crojne couldn't step in the wc when it mattered

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Well dhoni was motm in the final, even clarke played well in the final. Crojne couldn't step in the wc when it mattered

Success has many fathers but failure is orphan. Cronje would have been great had he won that tournament. But nobody ever talks about 'if' but everybody talks about 'what is'

 

[Nikhil_cric]

No Ponting also won a ICC event in 35 years of age so did Clark.

Yep the Aussies of 2000s were formidable but not invincible.

In the 1998 ICC KnockOut Trophy Final, Cronje played a major role with the bat with his 61 not out, leading the team to victory by 4 wickets.

His form in 1999 may have been down but Dhoni and Clark also won WC on back of poor tournaments in 2011 and 2015. So Cronje's side may would have done that against Pak in 1999 WC final.

Dhoni played a great knock in the 2011 final though.

1998 Champions Trophy had understrength teams with Australia , West Indies, Pakistan sending depleted sides to the tournament.

 

[sweep_shot]

South Africa's only ICC trophy came under Cronje (1998 CT).

But, it is hard to tell whether or not South Africa could've been better under Cronje. Smith wasn't a bad captain either.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Dhoni played a great knock in the 2011 final though.

1998 Champions Trophy had understrength teams with Australia , West Indies, Pakistan sending depleted sides to the tournament.

OK bro following are the so to say "depleted squads". It appears now they might would have won a WC too in 2000s because even 1998 ICC knock out tournament Aussie squad had almost more than 50% squad members of Australian WC squad of 2003.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

OK bro following are the so to say "depleted squads". It appears now they might would have won a WC too in 2000s because even 1998 ICC knock out tournament Aussie squad had almost more than 50% squad members of Australian WC squad of 2003.
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Did you watch the tournament? Australia played only 1 match and they played without both McGrath and Warne and got knocked out because it was a KO format throughout.

Australia without both McGrath and Warne in a side is absolutely depleted.

England played without Gough, Mullally, Thorpe and Stewart.

West Indies played without Ambrose and Walsh

Pakistan's only match did not have Anwar, Inzamam, Shoaib Akhtar, Waqar.

NZ did not have Chris Cairns.

 

[Ab Fan]

1999 was their best chance to win the World Cup and they choked then. SA were never that good to win the trophy post that.

Klusenar and Donald weren't there in 2003 World Cup and Pollock wasn't at its best as he was in 90s with bowl.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

1999 was their best chance to win the World Cup and they choked then. SA were never that good to win the trophy post that.

Klusenar and Donald weren't there in 2003 World Cup and Pollock wasn't at its best as he was in 90s with bowl.

Klusener and Donald were both there in 2003 World Cup.

 

[Hitman]

On another note, SA used to be my second favorite team in the 90's. Fans who missed the 90's can't fathom how good they were. Fans used to be debate which team was the best in the world, them or the Aussies.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

On another note, SA used to be my second favorite team in the 90's. Fans who missed the 90's can't fathom how good they were. Fans used to be debate which team was the best in the world, them or the Aussies.

Yep the 1990s SA side were just on a different level. All the talk of being the chokers came later. If they would have won another tournament under Cronje then this mental block had never been around. Just like Pak 8-0 is partially result of mental block the same way South Africa lost their way post Cronje due their mental infirmity.

 

[Hitman]

Yep the 1990s SA side were just on a different level. All the talk of being the chokers came later. If they would have won another tournament under Cronje then this mental block had never been around. Just like Pak 8-0 is partially result of mental block the same way South Africa lost their way post Cronje due their mental infirmity.

Some of their players were absolutely fab. Allan Donald till this day remains my favorite fast bowler ever.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Klusener and Donald were both there in 2003 World Cup.

Sometimes its not about players but about the leadership they are working under. Tell me would India have still won all those trophies had MS dhoni not been around? The answer to this question will make it clear to you what Cronje would have won. Also Pollock was never a great captain.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Sometimes its not about players but about the leadership they are working under. Tell me would India have still won all those trophies had MS dhoni not been around? The answer to this question will make it clear to you what Cronje would have won. Also Pollock was never a great captain.

Cronje was hardly a great captain. Very rigid in his ways and could never think out of the box.

His captaincy was very bland , as noted by Steve Waugh himself in his autobiography

 

[The Bald Eagle]

He captained the One Day International team to 99 wins out of 138 matches with one tied match and three no results. He holds the South African record for matches won as captain, and his record of captaining his side in 138 matches stands bettered only by Graeme Smith's 149 matches as ODI captain.

Cronje was hardly a great captain. Very rigid in his ways and could never think out of the box.

His captaincy was very bland , as noted by Steve Waugh himself in his autobiography

Check the above stats bro

 

[Mamoon]

I think that under Cronje, South Africa would have played the final of the 2003 World Cup but would have still lost to Australia.

The 2003 World Cup would have been his last, it was in South Africa and they had a very strong team. That World Cup proved to be a disaster under Pollock’s captaincy and the result could have been different under Cronje’s leadership.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I think that under Cronje, South Africa would have played the final of the 2003 World Cup but would have still lost to Australia.

The 2003 World Cup would have been his last, it was in South Africa and they had a very strong team. That World Cup proved to be a disaster under Pollock’s captaincy and the result could have been different under Cronje’s leadership.

Yep pollock was too bad a captain. Would have been difficult but its always easier to win WC at home unless you are India of 2023. So Cronje might would have picked a great victory then.

 

[Jazx]

South Africa failed to win twice when Cronje was the captain and if he was alive, 2003 could have been the last world cup for him. So, there is no chance he could have made any difference. Moreover he was suffering a life ban on fixing charges.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

The South Africans have a gloden opportunity now to replicate the success of 1998, but the question is could Markaram be the Cronje for them

 

[sweep_shot]

The South Africans have a gloden opportunity now to replicate the success of 1998, but the question is could Markaram be the Cronje for them

They definitely have the best chance this time.

They also had a chance in 2009 World T20 but Pakistan knocked them out in semi. South Africa had a monster team in 2009 World T20.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

South Africa have won their one and only ICC mega event trophy ie ICC Knock Out trophy final 1998 that too without even a single loss in that whole tournament under Hansie Cronje. They also made it to the Semi-Final of ICC WC 1996 before crashing out due to Allan Donald's run out folly. The South African side looked formidable and at times invincible too under Hansie Cronje. Sachin Tendulkar also termed Cronje as the toughest bowler that he ever faced.

So the question is had the fate of South African team be any different, had Hansie Cronje lived long?

Let me get this right.... South Africa would have won tournaments if a serial convicted match fixer would not have been discovered and continued in the game? Am i Getting it right???

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Let me get this right.... South Africa would have won tournaments if a serial convicted match fixer would not have been discovered and continued in the game? Am i Getting it right???

Well he died in 2002, what else have Proteas won since then?

 

[Statpadder Inc]

This is their best ever chance to win a wc, can't fumble now. They haven't won an icc trophy since 98, thats even more insane

 

[The Bald Eagle]

This is their best ever chance to win a wc, can't fumble now. They haven't won an icc trophy since 98, thats even more insane

Best chance for India too as Australia, West Indies and New Zealand no more there

 

[GillEdits]

Best chance for India too as Australia, West Indies and New Zealand no more there

Best ever chance for SA to make it through to the final, considering they're playing against Afghanistan.
I'm not underestimating Afghanistan, but it's better than facing India/Australia in the semis.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Well he died in 2002, what else have Proteas won since then?

My point is, he wasn't just fixing matches on his own. He was forcing his teammates to fix too. We dont know the extent of his fixing and maybe SA could have won 96 or 99 if the team culture was not infected by him.

 

[pratiktc]

Man world cup knockout results always have a bit of luck involved. If a team has reasonable quality and some rub of the green goes their way they can finagle a result.

All this mentality, mindset, grindset, final step are just post hoc guff. All teams put effort into strategy, tactics and try hard. We only remember the successful ones.

In another timeline, RSA's golden generation under Smith and then ABD maybe has back to back WCs in 2011 and 2015. They were pretty much equal or better than any other team in those tourneys.

 

[deltexas]

Well, his captaincy was the beginning of the choke phenomenon. He is the leader of the Sa " choke circus "

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I think that under Cronje, South Africa would have played the final of the 2003 World Cup but would have still lost to Australia.

The 2003 World Cup would have been his last, it was in South Africa and they had a very strong team. That World Cup proved to be a disaster under Pollock’s captaincy and the result could have been different under Cronje’s leadership.

Their bowling was poor. Don't think Cronje was going to make difference .

Donald was 37 and on his last legs and Pollock was bowling in the 120's by 2003. Ntini was never truly elite anyway .

Didn't have a good spinner either.

Not sure what Cronje could have done about that

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Well, his captaincy was the beginning of the choke phenomenon. He is the leader of the Sa " choke circus "

That initially wasn't a choke but a donald folly but it was so traumatic for them that it opened a chokers floodgates for them. Great chance of redemption this time for them.

 

[pakistani pride]

Dhoni played a great knock in the 2011 final though.

1998 Champions Trophy had understrength teams with Australia , West Indies, Pakistan sending depleted sides to the tournament.

Really Pak sending a depleted side for an event such as the CT?

 

[Sir Alex]

Lol what a funny headline.

Had he been alive he most probably would have been behind bars or ostracized forever following his match fixing shenanigans.

SA unearthed a ATG captain - Graeme Smith in his absence. They might not have won any ICC events but they definitely won tests all over the globe under him.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Really Pak sending a depleted side for an event such as the CT?

Injuries most likely.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Stars are aligning for SA. This is the best chance. No team left is invincible or extra clutch.

 

[Mamoon]

Their bowling was poor. Don't think Cronje was going to make difference .

Donald was 37 and on his last legs and Pollock was bowling in the 120's by 2003. Ntini was never truly elite anyway .

Didn't have a good spinner either.

Not sure what Cronje could have done about that

South Africa were the most consistent ODI team after Australia in that period with the same bowling attack, and a lot of attacks in that World Cup were average. The way they got eliminated in the midst of confusion was a sign of weak leadership, it really reflect Pollock in poor light. Perhaps things would have been different under Cronje.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

South Africa were the most consistent ODI team after Australia in that period with the same bowling attack, and a lot of attacks in that World Cup were average. The way they got eliminated in the midst of confusion was a sign of weak leadership, it really reflect Pollock in poor light. Perhaps things would have been different under Cronje.

Both England's and India's attacks were more potent.

The SA vs NZ match was more of a shocker to be honest. On a good batting wicket , NZ chased down 235 odd in 36 overs with only 1 wicket down.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Markaram would have an exceptional to win it against England whom his side have defeated before but now his side will have to face India who might treat them as Afghanistan now or may be we see some miracle.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Can Markram be the hero for the South African cricket, Cronje also depicted in picture

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Can Markram be the hero for the South African cricket, Cronje also depicted in picture
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Abd will be trolled so much if SA win. The chokebd memes on the internet won't stop

 

[FearlessRoar]

When will South Africa's cricket fortunes rise?

 

[TheSultan]

People unfairly gave S.A. the chokers tag in the mid 90s for their loss in the 92 semi, followed by a loss to West Indies in a test when they were all set to win. This was followed by poor showings in every test in Australia.

Unfortunately the group game and the semi final of the 99 World Cup really underlined their tag. The problem is, even if it was unfair, the South Africans themselves started believing it after that. Whoever the captain would have been, nothing could stop it after that.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

SA never had the players back then. Didn't have the batters to compete with OZ. Or a world class spinner