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[VIDEOS] Indian pace attack the greatest of all time: Mohammed Shami

Both our fast bowlers, Bumrah and Shami, are closing near to a milestone.

Shami 195 wickets, AVG 27.5
Bumrah 97 wickets, AVG 22.7

Should get it by the end of the series. Given that home matches are dominated by our spinners mostly, it is not possible to expect them to get to WPM of 4.0-5.0 like SENA pacers.
 
Nz bowling attack got obliterated in Aus, will get obliterated in India and other Asian countries.

So I think it's you who needs to actually think twice and factor in all conditions instead of asking us to broaden our perspectives.

Rather than me take your subjective opinions, best to look up rankings of Indian vs NZ bowlers on ICC website - where NZ blows India away. That should remove any doubts you may have.

You can also check their away bowling records, which are comparable.

Perspectives are good, but informed perspectives are better.
 
Rather than me take your subjective opinions, best to look up rankings of Indian vs NZ bowlers on ICC website - where NZ blows India away. That should remove any doubts you may have.

You can also check their away bowling records, which are comparable.

Perspectives are good, but informed perspectives are better.

As a combined pace attack,

India average 24.91 with the ball away from in the last 5 years. In comparison, NZ average 30.04 with the ball away from home in the same period. That is a huge difference.

The individual bowlers in the Indian attack might not be ATGs, but as a pack, they have stats that compare with the great attacks of the past with only the GOAT West Indian and Australian attacks towering above everyone.
 
Rather than me take your subjective opinions, best to look up rankings of Indian vs NZ bowlers on ICC website - where NZ blows India away. That should remove any doubts you may have.

You can also check their away bowling records, which are comparable.

Perspectives are good, but informed perspectives are better.
India blows Nz away on batting rankings even though Nz's batting lineup is way stronger, Rankings don't always depict the truth.
Ravi Ashwin is no. 2 on rankings he isn't even a part of our playing eleven, Nz bowlers have been grade A home bully that's about it.

I just have to look at their last series in Aus to know all about how their bowlers respond to flat pitches and if you are still in doubt, Nz is touring India in Nov that should clear a lot of doubts in your head.

Their Away bowling records are anything but comparable
 
Most away Test wickets by a bowler (from 1 Jan 2018):

Jasprit Bumrah - 97 wickets in 21 matches
Mohammed Shami - 72 wickets in 20 matches
Shaheen Afridi - 63 wickets in 15 matches
Ishant Sharma - 58 wickets in 15 matches
Suranga Lakmal - 55 wickets in 14 matches
Pat Cummins - 51 wickets in 9 matches
Jack Leach - 51 wickets in 12 matches
James Anderson - 46 wickets in 15 matches
 
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Oh my days. Libel action should be taken against Shami for the original post.
India not even best bowling attack of last 2 years!! Aussies are better. They slightly better test attack than Pakistan fgs.
Sporting blasphemy. Stop this silliness. Average bowling attack at best compared to the best ones never mind the atgs.
 
Most away Test wickets by a bowler (from 1 Jan 2018):

Jasprit Bumrah - 97 wickets in 21 matches
Mohammed Shami - 72 wickets in 20 matches
Shaheen Afridi - 63 wickets in 15 matches
Ishant Sharma - 58 wickets in 15 matches
Suranga Lakmal - 55 wickets in 14 matches
Pat Cummins - 51 wickets in 9 matches
Jack Leach - 51 wickets in 12 matches
James Anderson - 46 wickets in 15 matches

Wow 3 from India!

Pakistan needs to find one more Shaheen.
 
Oh my days. Libel action should be taken against Shami for the original post.
India not even best bowling attack of last 2 years!! Aussies are better. They slightly better test attack than Pakistan fgs.
Sporting blasphemy. Stop this silliness. Average bowling attack at best compared to the best ones never mind the atgs.

Not sure if you are serious or don't watch much cricket.

ATG debate is separate debate, but Indians have had a better all around attack than everyone else in the last 5-6 years. They have bowlers, who can bowl well in bounce, swing and spin. It can't be said about any other team.

I won't take 1-2 years, because Aus has not even stepped out of their den in 2 years,

In the last 6 years,

Overall bowling avg :

India 25
Aus 29
Pak 31

Away bowling avg:

Ind - 26
Aus - 29
Pak - 34

I am aware of potential yada yada and current attacks not reflecting past attacks etc, but actual performance for an extended period matters.

If you can do 25-26 overall and away for 6-7 years then a bowling attack is simply an outstanding attack.
 
India’s current bowling attack is good but it is not great.To call it the greatest attack in history is nonsense.The West Indies,Australia and pre-war English attacks were great.India used to play three spinners when WI and Aus were play four pacers.The first Indian bowler with decent pace was Srinath.
 
Not sure if you are serious or don't watch much cricket.

ATG debate is separate debate, but Indians have had a better all around attack than everyone else in the last 5-6 years. They have bowlers, who can bowl well in bounce, swing and spin. It can't be said about any other team.

I won't take 1-2 years, because Aus has not even stepped out of their den in 2 years,

In the last 6 years,

Overall bowling avg :

India 25
Aus 29
Pak 31

Away bowling avg:

Ind - 26
Aus - 29
Pak - 34

I am aware of potential yada yada and current attacks not reflecting past attacks etc, but actual performance for an extended period matters.

If you can do 25-26 overall and away for 6-7 years then a bowling attack is simply an outstanding attack.

Probably the most diverse. 2 spinning all rounders of this caliber never played in the past for any side. Only thing probably is missing is a genuine swing bowler to be even more potent. Otherwise as a unit they have been doing a great job. Australia to some extent had a rounded attack Mcgrath, Gillespie later Brett Lee, Warne, Mcgill. But West Indies lacked a spin bowler. They struggled on turning pitches. SA always had a potent attack. Good spinner was missing. With Maharaja in they can be a force to reckon with. NZ current attack is also a good one with variety of bowlers. Nowadays your attack has to be all round. You cannot get away with completely seam oriented attack or completely spin oriented attack like in the 80s.
 
Oh my days. Libel action should be taken against Shami for the original post.
India not even best bowling attack of last 2 years!! Aussies are better. They slightly better test attack than Pakistan fgs.
Sporting blasphemy. Stop this silliness. Average bowling attack at best compared to the best ones never mind the atgs.

There's delusion, and there's this:91:
 
Not sure if you are serious or don't watch much cricket.

ATG debate is separate debate, but Indians have had a better all around attack than everyone else in the last 5-6 years. They have bowlers, who can bowl well in bounce, swing and spin. It can't be said about any other team.

I won't take 1-2 years, because Aus has not even stepped out of their den in 2 years,

In the last 6 years,

Overall bowling avg :

India 25
Aus 29
Pak 31

Away bowling avg:

Ind - 26
Aus - 29
Pak - 34

I am aware of potential yada yada and current attacks not reflecting past attacks etc, but actual performance for an extended period matters.

If you can do 25-26 overall and away for 6-7 years then a bowling attack is simply an outstanding attack.
This is what matters! FACTS!
 
India not even best bowling attack of last 2 years!! Aussies are better
Same Aussie attack which couldn't help their team in winning any of the 2 consecutive home series against us?

If they can't even succeed at home on favourable pitches how could they be the best? OTOH, Indian attack has been the best in all kinds of conditions.
 
Extremely proud of this Indian pace attack.
Shami, Bumrah and Siraj are truely world class pacers. Umesh, Ishant, Bhuvi and Thakur are great bowlers too. We have quality backup bowlers like Deepak, Natarajan, Prasidh, Khalil, Saini, Unadkat 👌
 
India having Best Bowling attack in the world - It is impossible to get a full-verdict on this here on PP... Pakistanis can never digest this fact...
 
Extremely proud of this Indian pace attack.
Shami, Bumrah and Siraj are truely world class pacers. Umesh, Ishant, Bhuvi and Thakur are great bowlers too. We have quality backup bowlers like Deepak, Natarajan, Prasidh, Khalil, Saini, Unadkat 👌
Unadkat and quality back up.. Not matching.
Ishan Porrel much better than Unadkat and khalil.
 
I am really impressed by shami , he is relentless , really bends his back in every spell and keep coming back at you , must go down as one of indias greatest cricketers.
 
I am really impressed by shami , he is relentless , really bends his back in every spell and keep coming back at you , must go down as one of indias greatest cricketers.
Same with Siraj.Great attitude and passion.
 
Unadkat and quality back up.. Not matching.
Ishan Porrel much better than Unadkat and khalil.

You are judging him by his IPL performance mate. Siraj and Shami are also ordinary by IPL standards, but look at their performances in test cricket.
Same thing with Unadkat, he is a high quality and very consistent performer in domestic circuits and deserve a rerun in test arena.
 
Yes definitely, but you've had quality seamers in the past.

Kapil
Srinath
Prasad
Zaheer
And more..

We had some great individual pacers but not a great pace unit like current attack. This is by far our best ever bowling unit. But we need a decent left arm pacer for variety.
 
KL Rahul (in Press) said "Indian pace attack is difficult to play in nets, especially for me and they scare us a lot in nets - we are lucky to have this bowling attack".
 
How Indian Pacers Have Thrived Overseas Under Virat Kohli's Captaincy

Leading the three-match series 1-0, India will look to clinch their first-ever Test series win in South Africa when both teams take the field for the second Test, starting January 3 at the Wanderers Stadium in Johannesburg. While KL Rahul's ton in the first innings in Centurion provided some much-needed thrust for the struggling Indian batters, the fast bowlers -- Jasprit Bumrah, Mohammed Shami and Mohammed Siraj -- fired on all cylinders, forcing South Africa's batting collapse in both the innings.

India have never lost a Test match in Johannesburg and Virat Kohli will hope that his pacers can help them maintain that record in the second Test, starting on Monday.

India have enjoyed much success in overseas conditions, and stats prove that the Indian bowlers, especially the pacers, deserve a lot of credit for that.

For the record, the Indian pacers have taken 340 Test wickets since 2018 - also the most by any team in the same period.

Moreover, India's pace bowling unit has a strike rate of 51.0 in away matches under Virat Kohli's captaincy - best for a captain who has led one's team in 20 or more Tests.


97ibtfvo_team-india_625x300_02_January_22.jpg



In the first innings of the Centurion Test, the Indian bowlers took all 10 wickets for a 10th time in an away Test since 2018, which is also a record.


l757v748_team-india_625x300_02_January_22.jpg



Last but not the least, the last time India played a Test in Johannesburg, all 20 wickets were taken by the pacers.

This was only the second instance when all 20 wickets were taken by pacers in Tests -- the other being the Nottingham Test against England last year -- and both have come under Kohli's captaincy.

https://sports.ndtv.com/south-afric...-captaincy-2684776#pfrom=home-ndtv_topstories
 
It's been an incredible run for India's fast bowlers under Virat Kohli, it's up there with all the ATG teams as shown in the statistics above. At this stage, anyone quibbling over the quality of this Indian attack is horribly misinformed.
 
Most heartwarming aspect is how well Indian pacers do in India. Guys like Umesh and Shami have done exceptionally well on not so pacer friendly conditions.
 
The greatest bowling attack in the world fell short when it really mattered. India will not get a better chance to win a test series in South Africa again
 
Uncle Tom is Shami. And not being able to defend two decent scores against a noob batting line up in embarrassing.
 
Yes we saw the greatest pace attack in action today and when they conceded 152 without taking a wicket against Pakistan.
 
Even Shami/Bumrah were completely outbowled by Rabada/Ngidi/Jansen.

Less said about the rest of the attack the better.
 
Age of India’s pace attack in the recent series.

Bumrah - 28
Shami - 31
Yadav - 34
Sharma - 33
Thakur - 30


Compared to Pakistan’s.

Shaheen - 21
Hassan - 27
Faheem - 27
Abbas - 31 (+4)
Dahani - 23

4/5 bowlers in the Indian team are past their peak, they’ll be gone in the next 4 years. Bumrah will be 32 and past his peak by then.

India’s future doesn’t look too bright in terms of their bowling attack.
 
The greatest bowling attack in the world fell short when it really mattered. India will not get a better chance to win a test series in South Africa again

They are still India's best bowling attack ever. They should have played Ishant in all 3 tbh,
 
Where was greatest ever bowling attack in 2nd and 3rd tests in 2nd inns on helpful wickets? seem to have not shien up.
 
Where was greatest ever bowling attack in 2nd and 3rd tests in 2nd inns on helpful wickets? seem to have not shien up.

Exactly!!! Absolutely diabolical comments in he original post. Sporting blasphemy. Like comparing Frank Bruno to Muhammad Ali!

The indian bowlers were not good enough to bowl out an average South African batting side twice on wearing, helpful wickets. Completely and utterly overated bowling attack. Any bowling attack where a tubby village cricket standard trundler like Thakur is a key component should not be using words like 'great' when describing them. Bumrah is very good not great. Shami is good. Ashwin is a home track bully. And Thakur is comedy.
 
By the way. Ashwin. Lol. This 'great' spinner has been absolute pants hasn't he? I've seen a double decker bus spin more then blinkin Ashwin on this tour. Useless bowler abroad. Two wearing pitches and he produced garbage.
 
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Age of India’s pace attack in the recent series.

Bumrah - 28
Shami - 31
Yadav - 34
Sharma - 33
Thakur - 30


Compared to Pakistan’s.

Shaheen - 21
Hassan - 27
Faheem - 27
Abbas - 31 (+4)
Dahani - 23

4/5 bowlers in the Indian team are past their peak, they’ll be gone in the next 4 years. Bumrah will be 32 and past his peak by then.

India’s future doesn’t look too bright in terms of their bowling attack.

As someone who has seen the last two QEA trophies extensively, these are my observations on Pakistan's bowling resources.

Hasan needs a specific set of conditions to be successful. He's a skiddy bowler who needs the pitch to be abrasive with low bounce for his in-cutter to become successful. He's neither consistent with line nor length and is prone to bowling many no-balls. He may prove me wrong but from the body of work that he has behind him, he's not world-class yet and totally unproven in alien conditions.

Faheem makes it to the team only as an all-rounder and that too is due to his good batting form over the last season. His bowling is not even close to being test class. His domestic team even gives him the new ball when he plays but he still hasn't done anything of note.

Abbas is pretty much done for. He has lost his pace and the zip that he got for a short while in 2018. It will be surprising to see him play ever again for Pakistan. Coaching and county cricket is his best bet for a career in cricket, I feel.

Dahani is an absolute rookie who has no clue how to set up batters in the longer format. Sindh didn't make it to the finals because of the inability of Hasnain and Dahani to exert pressure after the opening bowlers ended their first spell. As much as we wish for him to be successful, he's nowhere near test class at this moment.

Shaheen - the only one who makes it to the team without question. There's too much burden on him and we need to carefully manage him. He's also the only bowler who can make it in the bowling attack of the neighbors (any team would be lucky to have him).

There's also no one in the domestic circuit who's ready for long format.

KPK has some good prospects in Irfanullah, Sameen, Arshad, & Wasim but they all need to learn the art of length bowling.

Balochistan has Akif but he's injury-prone. The other bowlers are in fact so ordinary that I can't even remember their names without serious thinking (Taj and Najeeb are the only two I can recall for now)

Northern has Athar but he's Hasan Ali lite. Kashif is a rookie who has height but is short on pace. Musa is well, Musa. They have Amir Jamal but he's an all-rounder and I didn't see him play 4-day matches. They even played Rauf a match and he got six wickets there or something and set up a win for the team.

Sindh has Umar but he's ignored for now and the three seniors they have are Sohail, Tabish, & Mir Hamza and these three are ironically the three most difficult bowlers in the domestic circuit. Hasnain can't pitch the ball at the same spot three balls in a row to save his life at the moment.

Southern Punjab literally has an army of trundlers and so-called batting all-rounders that neither score too heavily nor take too many wickets. Randhawa, Talat, & Yamin are the guilty three who headline this mediocrity. Ilyas is skilled but he is short and hence unable to get the desired bounce that you need to trouble high-quality batters consistently. I'm not even sure what happened to Zia ul Haq. He's stringier than a bean pole and looks like someone whose heart is not in the sport anymore. He's probably just waiting for a call from the USA so he can join the MCL or whatever that league is called and chill out with Sami Aslam over the weekdays.

Central Punjab has bowlers who are old and slow. The two Waqas's are their main bowlers when Hasan is away on international duty and both of them look frankly 40 plus instead of being in their 30's (they may well be young, they just look old, tired, and angsty). Ehsan Adil is literally the same as Zia-ul-Haq, they can play as each other in the cricketing field and not a single person will notice any difference except better hair for Ehsan but that's just a minor inconvenience.

I haven't seen second eleven bowlers but if they are playing there, it'll be hard to see them being any better than the first eleven players.

Let's not confuse ourselves between T20 bowling talent and long-format bowlers as both of these areas require a totally different skillset from each other. We definitely do have bowlers aplenty who can clock north of 140 kph in T20's and can bowl a mean yorker every now and then but our long-format bowling cupboard besides Shaheen is pretty bare.

While Shami's original statement may be a bit over the top and more like a rallying cry to motivate his team and get under the skin of the opponents, let's be very clear that the neighbors have an extremely potent test bowling attack suitable for almost all conditions. They lack a left-arm pacer and an out-and-out tall fast bowler (as Ishant has lost considerable pace) but that's a much smaller problem than what we have at our hand.

Please give credit where due instead of just creating a hypothesis that doesn't stand any logical reasoning.
 
The 3 best bowlers in terms of BOTH quality and stats were Jansen, Rabada and Ndidi. Comfortably by some distance outbowled the Indians over the 3 tests.

And the trundler Thakur had a better average then the Bumrah and Shami! He took 12 wickets - same as Bumrah. Shami took 14. The mighty Ashwin took 3 wickets at 60 average in helpful conditions!

This tells me 2 things:

- The South African batting can't be all that of Thakur got 12 wickets (honestly I am not exaggerating but I think he would struggle in the Birmingham League)
- And worse - if Thakur is the number 1 bowler in your team across a full series - numbers 2, 3 and 4 need to look in the mirror, ask some serious questions and then smash the mirror in anger and shame.
 
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To any Indian fans - this is just banter. Give and take. Remember I have said many times India are a GOOD team and a GOOD bowling attack and they are better than Pakistan - so you can't say I am totally biased
 
As someone who has seen the last two QEA trophies extensively, these are my observations on Pakistan's bowling resources.

Hasan needs a specific set of conditions to be successful. He's a skiddy bowler who needs the pitch to be abrasive with low bounce for his in-cutter to become successful. He's neither consistent with line nor length and is prone to bowling many no-balls. He may prove me wrong but from the body of work that he has behind him, he's not world-class yet and totally unproven in alien conditions.

Faheem makes it to the team only as an all-rounder and that too is due to his good batting form over the last season. His bowling is not even close to being test class. His domestic team even gives him the new ball when he plays but he still hasn't done anything of note.

Abbas is pretty much done for. He has lost his pace and the zip that he got for a short while in 2018. It will be surprising to see him play ever again for Pakistan. Coaching and county cricket is his best bet for a career in cricket, I feel.

Dahani is an absolute rookie who has no clue how to set up batters in the longer format. Sindh didn't make it to the finals because of the inability of Hasnain and Dahani to exert pressure after the opening bowlers ended their first spell. As much as we wish for him to be successful, he's nowhere near test class at this moment.

Shaheen - the only one who makes it to the team without question. There's too much burden on him and we need to carefully manage him. He's also the only bowler who can make it in the bowling attack of the neighbors (any team would be lucky to have him).

There's also no one in the domestic circuit who's ready for long format.

KPK has some good prospects in Irfanullah, Sameen, Arshad, & Wasim but they all need to learn the art of length bowling.

Balochistan has Akif but he's injury-prone. The other bowlers are in fact so ordinary that I can't even remember their names without serious thinking (Taj and Najeeb are the only two I can recall for now)

Northern has Athar but he's Hasan Ali lite. Kashif is a rookie who has height but is short on pace. Musa is well, Musa. They have Amir Jamal but he's an all-rounder and I didn't see him play 4-day matches. They even played Rauf a match and he got six wickets there or something and set up a win for the team.

Sindh has Umar but he's ignored for now and the three seniors they have are Sohail, Tabish, & Mir Hamza and these three are ironically the three most difficult bowlers in the domestic circuit. Hasnain can't pitch the ball at the same spot three balls in a row to save his life at the moment.

Southern Punjab literally has an army of trundlers and so-called batting all-rounders that neither score too heavily nor take too many wickets. Randhawa, Talat, & Yamin are the guilty three who headline this mediocrity. Ilyas is skilled but he is short and hence unable to get the desired bounce that you need to trouble high-quality batters consistently. I'm not even sure what happened to Zia ul Haq. He's stringier than a bean pole and looks like someone whose heart is not in the sport anymore. He's probably just waiting for a call from the USA so he can join the MCL or whatever that league is called and chill out with Sami Aslam over the weekdays.

Central Punjab has bowlers who are old and slow. The two Waqas's are their main bowlers when Hasan is away on international duty and both of them look frankly 40 plus instead of being in their 30's (they may well be young, they just look old, tired, and angsty). Ehsan Adil is literally the same as Zia-ul-Haq, they can play as each other in the cricketing field and not a single person will notice any difference except better hair for Ehsan but that's just a minor inconvenience.

I haven't seen second eleven bowlers but if they are playing there, it'll be hard to see them being any better than the first eleven players.

Let's not confuse ourselves between T20 bowling talent and long-format bowlers as both of these areas require a totally different skillset from each other. We definitely do have bowlers aplenty who can clock north of 140 kph in T20's and can bowl a mean yorker every now and then but our long-format bowling cupboard besides Shaheen is pretty bare.

While Shami's original statement may be a bit over the top and more like a rallying cry to motivate his team and get under the skin of the opponents, let's be very clear that the neighbors have an extremely potent test bowling attack suitable for almost all conditions. They lack a left-arm pacer and an out-and-out tall fast bowler (as Ishant has lost considerable pace) but that's a much smaller problem than what we have at our hand.

Please give credit where due instead of just creating a hypothesis that doesn't stand any logical reasoning.

So you don’t think it’s worrying that India have 4 bowlers over 30 years old?

Pakistan has a young pace attack, I will give Hassan and Faheem another 2 years until they peak.

Dahani and Wasim jnr are unproven but I see one of them taking over Abbas.

India are banking on their seniors, whilst Pakistan are planning for the future.

In the next 2-5 years, Pakistan will have an experienced bowling attack that should be at the peak of their careers, whereas India will have a bowling attack consisting of 2-3 inexperienced bowlers who aren’t ready for the long format.
 
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India are banking on their seniors, whilst Pakistan are planning for the future.

In the next 2-5 years, Pakistan will have an experienced bowling attack that should be at the peak of their careers, whereas India will have a bowling attack consisting of 2-3 inexperienced bowlers who aren’t ready for the long format.

So you're saying, you're hoping to have something to look forward to :rabada2

I prefer living in the present, enjoying a beautiful bowling attack that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.
 
[MENTION=133726]GoUgandaCranes[/MENTION]

That is a superb analysis, but I don't think you can compare a strike bowler like Shaheen with a support bowler like Faheem.

I was very heavily influenced by the 1984 West Indian tourists in England. They discarded the tried and tested model of 4 "equal" pace bowlers (Holding, Marshall, Roberts and Garner) because with 3 Number 11's in the team they were getting bowled out too often.

By the end of the summer they were playing with 3 strike pace bowlers (Marshall, Holding and Garner) plus a fast-medium support all-rounder (Eldine Baptiste, who was not as good as Faheem Ashraf) and a modest spin-bowling all-rounder who was an electric fielder (Roger Harper, who was not as good as Shadab Khan).

To me for tours like this one of South Africa, that's the model for India or Pakistan. You don't need a spinner like Ashwin, who took 3 wickets at an average of 55 in the series.

You pick a Number 7 for his batting and fielding who can also give you a few overs of spin. That's why on the last tour of South Africa we saw Shadab Khan take 4 wickets for 80 and average 52 with the bat. Yasir Shah took 1 wicket in 2 Tests.

You al pick a Number 8 for his batting and support pace bowling, which is largely to give your 3 strike pace bowlers a break. In one Test in South Africa 3 years ago we saw Faheem Ashraf score 0 and 15, but take 3-57 and 3-42.

So I have already nailed down:

7. Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
11. Shaheen Shah Afridi

All that is left is requiring 2 more pace bowlers.

One of them is almost certainly going to be Naseem Shah, whom I expect to flourish at Gloucestershire.

So I need one more quick bowler. I'm leaning towards Sameen Gul for his height, but I'd love a county to sign Mohammad Hasnain so that we can see what his potential actually is. Failing that I'd probably go with Haris Rauf to be honest ahead of Hasan Ali.
 
So you're saying, you're hoping to have something to look forward to :rabada2

I prefer living in the present, enjoying a beautiful bowling attack that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

What I’m saying is, the Indian bowling attack will be at a rapid decline after the likes of Shami, Thakur, Sharma, and Yadav have retired. The fact that Sharma and Yadav are still in the squad suggests that India are struggling to find replacements. Or are Sharma and Yadav then best bench players India have?
 
So you don’t think it’s worrying that India have 4 bowlers over 30 years old?

Pakistan has a young pace attack, I will give Hassan and Faheem another 2 years until they peak.

Dahani and Wasim jnr are unproven but I see one of them taking over Abbas.

India are banking on their seniors, whilst Pakistan are planning for the future.

In the next 2-5 years, Pakistan will have an experienced bowling attack that should be at the peak of their careers, whereas India will have a bowling attack consisting of 2-3 inexperienced bowlers who aren’t ready for the long format.

I don't think that it's a worry for now but it may become a concern if the next-in-line bowlers fail to live up to their potential. There are some good youngsters waiting in the wings and the culture in their cricket has changed completely so they may become even better than the ones that are playing now.

[MENTION=133726]GoUgandaCranes[/MENTION]

That is a superb analysis, but I don't think you can compare a strike bowler like Shaheen with a support bowler like Faheem.

I was very heavily influenced by the 1984 West Indian tourists in England. They discarded the tried and tested model of 4 "equal" pace bowlers (Holding, Marshall, Roberts and Garner) because with 3 Number 11's in the team they were getting bowled out too often.

By the end of the summer they were playing with 3 strike pace bowlers (Marshall, Holding and Garner) plus a fast-medium support all-rounder (Eldine Baptiste, who was not as good as Faheem Ashraf) and a modest spin-bowling all-rounder who was an electric fielder (Roger Harper, who was not as good as Shadab Khan).

To me for tours like this one of South Africa, that's the model for India or Pakistan. You don't need a spinner like Ashwin, who took 3 wickets at an average of 55 in the series.

You pick a Number 7 for his batting and fielding who can also give you a few overs of spin. That's why on the last tour of South Africa we saw Shadab Khan take 4 wickets for 80 and average 52 with the bat. Yasir Shah took 1 wicket in 2 Tests.

You al pick a Number 8 for his batting and support pace bowling, which is largely to give your 3 strike pace bowlers a break. In one Test in South Africa 3 years ago we saw Faheem Ashraf score 0 and 15, but take 3-57 and 3-42.

So I have already nailed down:

7. Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
11. Shaheen Shah Afridi

All that is left is requiring 2 more pace bowlers.

One of them is almost certainly going to be Naseem Shah, whom I expect to flourish at Gloucestershire.

So I need one more quick bowler. I'm leaning towards Sameen Gul for his height, but I'd love a county to sign Mohammad Hasnain so that we can see what his potential actually is. Failing that I'd probably go with Haris Rauf to be honest ahead of Hasan Ali.

I'm not comparing Fahim with Shaheen, I was just quoting the poster above and saying that Pakistan isn't thriving with fast bowling riches as the poster was claiming. I like Fahim, even want him to work on his bowling seriously so he can be the fourth seamer. He can help us win overseas tests and even be a good option in home tests so he's someone that I really want to succeed.
 
Cape Town: India captain Virat Kohli reckons that the Indian fast bowlers are the best in the world and they have proved that over the years by being so successful anywhere in the world and to compare them with the South African fast bowlers is not fair as their strength lies somewhere else and there are different ways of picking up wickets.

“I think the two times South Africa chased the scores down, they batted really well and applied themselves. We have different strengths, so to compare their bowlers’ to ours’ will not be correct because the kind of help we get on all pitches across the world, I don’t think any bowling attack is able to do that at the current moment. Precisely, why we have been so successful anywhere in the world. Our strengths are different and we bowled at different areas as there are many different ways to pick up wickets,” said Kohli in the post-match press conference.

However, Kohli did concede the fact that India’s batting was below par and the South African exploited the conditions better than his team.

“It’s important to focus on your strengths as a team. Appreciate the opposition who did well and exploited the conditions with pace and bounce. They know the pitches so well as they have grown up in these conditions and which areas to bowl at and consistently hit them. You have to give credit for that and at the same time, you speak to your strengths and understand that they have got you results in the past, that should hold you in good stead moving forward,” added Kohli.

India started off really well in the first session but failed to get the edge as the South African batters kept playing and missing the ball.

“That’s part of sport. I mean, I can’t sit here and say this or that has happened. The reality of the situation is that we have lost 2-1, those balls did not take the edge and come to the slip cordon,” feels the India captain.

“Ifs and buts don’t have a place in sport because it is such an amazing thing to be a part of where you are playing one moment at a time and when the moment passes away, there is no point thinking about it because there are more and more moments that follow. You have to make sure that you stay present in those moments and capitalise on them individually,” he further added.

“We can just think about the mistakes we made and try to correct them. I am not going to think over things that could have gone our way. If they had to go our way, they could have gone our way already. I don’t think there’s any point focusing on those anymore,” concluded Kohli.

https://www.cricketcountry.com/news...africa-they-are-the-best-in-the-world-1011121
 
As someone who has seen the last two QEA trophies extensively, these are my observations on Pakistan's bowling resources.

Hasan needs a specific set of conditions to be successful. He's a skiddy bowler who needs the pitch to be abrasive with low bounce for his in-cutter to become successful. He's neither consistent with line nor length and is prone to bowling many no-balls. He may prove me wrong but from the body of work that he has behind him, he's not world-class yet and totally unproven in alien conditions.

Faheem makes it to the team only as an all-rounder and that too is due to his good batting form over the last season. His bowling is not even close to being test class. His domestic team even gives him the new ball when he plays but he still hasn't done anything of note.

Abbas is pretty much done for. He has lost his pace and the zip that he got for a short while in 2018. It will be surprising to see him play ever again for Pakistan. Coaching and county cricket is his best bet for a career in cricket, I feel.

Dahani is an absolute rookie who has no clue how to set up batters in the longer format. Sindh didn't make it to the finals because of the inability of Hasnain and Dahani to exert pressure after the opening bowlers ended their first spell. As much as we wish for him to be successful, he's nowhere near test class at this moment.

Shaheen - the only one who makes it to the team without question. There's too much burden on him and we need to carefully manage him. He's also the only bowler who can make it in the bowling attack of the neighbors (any team would be lucky to have him).

There's also no one in the domestic circuit who's ready for long format.

KPK has some good prospects in Irfanullah, Sameen, Arshad, & Wasim but they all need to learn the art of length bowling.

Balochistan has Akif but he's injury-prone. The other bowlers are in fact so ordinary that I can't even remember their names without serious thinking (Taj and Najeeb are the only two I can recall for now)

Northern has Athar but he's Hasan Ali lite. Kashif is a rookie who has height but is short on pace. Musa is well, Musa. They have Amir Jamal but he's an all-rounder and I didn't see him play 4-day matches. They even played Rauf a match and he got six wickets there or something and set up a win for the team.

Sindh has Umar but he's ignored for now and the three seniors they have are Sohail, Tabish, & Mir Hamza and these three are ironically the three most difficult bowlers in the domestic circuit. Hasnain can't pitch the ball at the same spot three balls in a row to save his life at the moment.

Southern Punjab literally has an army of trundlers and so-called batting all-rounders that neither score too heavily nor take too many wickets. Randhawa, Talat, & Yamin are the guilty three who headline this mediocrity. Ilyas is skilled but he is short and hence unable to get the desired bounce that you need to trouble high-quality batters consistently. I'm not even sure what happened to Zia ul Haq. He's stringier than a bean pole and looks like someone whose heart is not in the sport anymore. He's probably just waiting for a call from the USA so he can join the MCL or whatever that league is called and chill out with Sami Aslam over the weekdays.

Central Punjab has bowlers who are old and slow. The two Waqas's are their main bowlers when Hasan is away on international duty and both of them look frankly 40 plus instead of being in their 30's (they may well be young, they just look old, tired, and angsty). Ehsan Adil is literally the same as Zia-ul-Haq, they can play as each other in the cricketing field and not a single person will notice any difference except better hair for Ehsan but that's just a minor inconvenience.

I haven't seen second eleven bowlers but if they are playing there, it'll be hard to see them being any better than the first eleven players.

Let's not confuse ourselves between T20 bowling talent and long-format bowlers as both of these areas require a totally different skillset from each other. We definitely do have bowlers aplenty who can clock north of 140 kph in T20's and can bowl a mean yorker every now and then but our long-format bowling cupboard besides Shaheen is pretty bare.

While Shami's original statement may be a bit over the top and more like a rallying cry to motivate his team and get under the skin of the opponents, let's be very clear that the neighbors have an extremely potent test bowling attack suitable for almost all conditions. They lack a left-arm pacer and an out-and-out tall fast bowler (as Ishant has lost considerable pace) but that's a much smaller problem than what we have at our hand.

Please give credit where due instead of just creating a hypothesis that doesn't stand any logical reasoning.

How many games did dahani play in this qaid e azam same with Husnain?

What do you class sameen and irfanullah if they ain't line and length bowlers ?
 
How many games did dahani play in this qaid e azam same with Husnain?

The televised game between Sindh and KPK is the match that I'm specifically talking about. Mir and Sohail looked a different class to them and helped Sindh win the match while Hasnain and Dahani leaked runs and lacked control in the first innings.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._wickets_career.html?id=14173;type=tournament

You can also see on the top wicket-takers chart the difference between Mir & Sohail with Hasnain. Sohail is at 5, Mir at 8 while Hasnain has a bowling average of 50.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._wickets_career.html?id=14173;type=tournament

Don't get me wrong, I rate Dahani but he needs to learn the art of taking wickets. You cannot run in, bowl a short ball, and expect international batters to give their wicket away.

What do you class sameen and irfanullah if they ain't line and length bowlers ?

I said that they need to learn the art of length bowling; the test match hard length ala Cummins instead of the white ball bowling where there's a variation every other ball. Sameen is impatient and while I rate Irfan a lot, I feel he needs to work with better coaches on his health and fitness so he can gain the ability to bowl a bit faster and remain at his peak for a longer duration.
 
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The televised game between Sindh and KPK is the match that I'm specifically talking about. Mir and Sohail looked a different class to them and helped Sindh win the match while Hasnain and Dahani leaked runs and lacked control in the first innings.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._wickets_career.html?id=14173;type=tournament

You can also see on the top wicket-takers chart the difference between Mir & Sohail with Hasnain. Sohail is at 5, Mir at 8 while Hasnain has a bowling average of 50.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._wickets_career.html?id=14173;type=tournament

Don't get me wrong, I rate Dahani but he needs to learn the art of taking wickets. You cannot run in, bowl a short ball, and expect international batters to give their wicket away.



I said that they need to learn the art of length bowling; the test match hard length ala Cummins instead of the white ball bowling where there's a variation every other ball. Sameen is impatient and while I rate Irfan a lot, I feel he needs to work with better coaches on his health and fitness so he can gain the ability to bowl a bit faster and remain at his peak for a longer duration.

Fair enough but its proberly due to husnain not getting a consistent run in the longer format hence why his average was alot higher also husnain and dahani are hit the deck bowlers they will proberly be more successful in conditions such as Australia but yes I agree they do need to learn the art of bowling long spells and taking spells:).

Also agree with the assumption regarding Irfanullah.
 
What I’m saying is, the Indian bowling attack will be at a rapid decline after the likes of Shami, Thakur, Sharma, and Yadav have retired. The fact that Sharma and Yadav are still in the squad suggests that India are struggling to find replacements. Or are Sharma and Yadav then best bench players India have?

I think things will change from next cycle and will see a lot of new faces! New captain (new overall setup) may try new things, because they will not be under the pressure of retaining the tested formula... The new captain (whoever it is) a long-term fresh captain (who is not mere substitute to Kohli like how Rahane, Rohit & Rahul did for few matches) should take his own stand/step. If he simply tries to follow & continue whatever Kohli did then he will go nowhere & will not be successful...
 
I think Rahul Dravid (the coach) is now coming out of the Kohli/Shastri bond and his emphasis and inclination will be towards identifying more youth talents, as he coached and blended a lot with under-19 & younger cricketers! So ideally someone line Pant becoming the captain under Dravid will be an interesting chapter in Indian Cricket...
 
Shoaib Akhtar :

“All the Indian pacers are good; I love Umesh Yadav, I love Jasprit Bumrah"

“I think Mohammed Shami is great. I feel it would be great if they could develop attitude too, like that of their Pakistani counterparts.”
 
Didn't expect India to lose the ODI series with a result of 0-3 vs a noobish SA batting lineup.

Junaid Khan won us an ODI series in SA against a vastly superior SA Batting lineup.
 
Bumrah, Shaheen and Shami would be an amazing attack. Shaheen is a wicket taker.
 
Well I don't know about the greatest of all time, but that was high class bowling from Bumrah, Shami and Siraj today.

Made the England batters earn every run, absolutely no freebies.

Tremendous effort that.
 
Well I don't know about the greatest of all time, but that was high class bowling from Bumrah, Shami and Siraj today.

Made the England batters earn every run, absolutely no freebies.

Tremendous effort that.

Definitely the best ever Indian attack by miles…but i would still rate it behind IK, Akram, Younis trio in Asia.
 
Definitely the best ever Indian attack by miles…but i would still rate it behind IK, Akram, Younis trio in Asia.
Imran played more as a batsman after Waqar started. I think best Pak pace trio was Wasim , Waqar , Akhtar.
 
If the attack includes spinners, then the Indian attack from last 6 years is by far the most successful in history - including the fabled Windies and Aus attacks of their world beating teams.

But if we mean just the fast bowling attacks, then Bumrah, Shami and Siraj/Ishant over the last five years have a record that puts them in the same league as the Windies attack of Marshall, Holding, Roberts/Garner and marginally ahead of Aus attack of McGrath and company.
 
If the attack includes spinners, then the Indian attack from last 6 years is by far the most successful in history - including the fabled Windies and Aus attacks of their world beating teams.

But if we mean just the fast bowling attacks, then Bumrah, Shami and Siraj/Ishant over the last five years have a record that puts them in the same league as the Windies attack of Marshall, Holding, Roberts/Garner and marginally ahead of Aus attack of McGrath and company.

Right now because they have thakur in there who despite being good, I feel he lessens their overall quality in my humble opinion.

I would say they are on par with Aussies for all conditions. Current Aussie attack. But addition of green makes Aussie attack slightly better because green is better than thakur in my opinion

Top 2 yes.

Wasim Waqar and shoaib when they played weren't all in their primes together so unfortunately can't compare the two attacks.
Would have been a mouth watering clash though.

Both are equally good attacks. We dint have the 4th option and the spin support to match india. But pure fast bowlers both are equally good.

Great Aussie attack of 2000 is the best because of Warne and mcgrath. Especially Warne. He is a freak of nature. But in terms of attack alone, West Indies is the best. Windies of 80s were the best.

Then Gillespie mcgrath Lee is the second best.
 
As an all round attack, it is the best because in subcontinent, they have Ashwin, Jadeja and Axar combination.

Outside subcontinent, it has enough options to go with 4 pacers + Jadeja. Even Ashwin doesn't warrant a place, I understand he is no Warne or Murali but in favourable conditions, he is simply magnificent.
 
Saw Imran, Waqar and Wasim bowl together. And by then, Imran was not in his prime. Even otherwise, that attack did not achieve what the Indians achieved consistently in SENA. Pakistans attack in late 90's under Wasim Akram was great. Stil they underachieved abroad.
in my humble opinion, the Indian attack has been formidable in the last few years. Although they don't boast of a name like Wasim or Imran, but as a pack, they are more mean and ruthless.
 
Yes, best ever. We saw how they defended targets against SA and now in England.
 
The present Indian attack is good but to call it the best attack of all time is a joke.
 
Yes, best ever. We saw how they defended targets against SA and now in England.

The present Indian attack is good but to call it the best attack of all time is a joke.

Its just one test match, But most attacks now a days in test matches bowl in favorable conditions where test matches are always decided.

In Asian conditions ball is always turning and away either bounce or swing. Pakistan due to teams not touring for over 10 years is a throw back from the past where flat pitches were served against Australia and SA.

This Indian attack who almost always bowl on favorable condition were not used to the flat pitches of England this season due to BAZ asking for pitches favorable for shot making.

Plus India only has 3 world class bowlers outside of India and only 2 played they left Ashwin out.
 
In India, on most tracks, all Indian "spinners" do is pitch the ball on a testing length, line does not matter much :yk, and magic happens. Jadeja tried to do the same thing vs Root without any results.

On proper testing wickets where batters are smashing the ball, bowlers have to dig in deep.

That's what separates an ordinary attack from extraordinary.
 
This is why you should shut up, do the business and let history judge you.
 
LOL hahahahahhaha let's laugh at all these Indians.
They just can't keep quiet. This bowling attack is not even best in the world right now let alone the best attack of all time.
They have only achieved one thing that's Australia series won even in those matches regulars so called best bowlers weren't playing.
 
The GOAT Indian team SENA results since 2015

1) Lost 2-1 to South Africa in 2016
2) Lost 3-1 to England in 2018
3) Won 2-1 against Australia in 2018
4) Lost 2-0 against New Zealand in 2020
5) Won 2-1 against Australia in 2021
6) Drew 2-2 against England in 2021/2022

Surely with their best pace bowling unit in their entire history, they would have expected much better results

Please keep in mind Pakistan still has a better record in England and New Zealand where historically they have routinely won series in the 90's
 
The GOAT Indian team SENA results since 2015

1) Lost 2-1 to South Africa in 2016
2) Lost 3-1 to England in 2018
3) Won 2-1 against Australia in 2018
4) Lost 2-0 against New Zealand in 2020
5) Won 2-1 against Australia in 2021
6) Drew 2-2 against England in 2021/2022

Surely with their best pace bowling unit in their entire history, they would have expected much better results

Please keep in mind Pakistan still has a better record in England and New Zealand where historically they have routinely won series in the 90's

India lost in South Africa earlier this year 2-1 In the test series
 
The Indian bowlers, the reason for India's Test dominance over the years, have not had the best run away from home in 2022, with the side losing all three overseas games when they have had to defend a target.
 
Its just one test match, But most attacks now a days in test matches bowl in favorable conditions where test matches are always decided.

In Asian conditions ball is always turning and away either bounce or swing. Pakistan due to teams not touring for over 10 years is a throw back from the past where flat pitches were served against Australia and SA.

This Indian attack who almost always bowl on favorable condition were not used to the flat pitches of England this season due to BAZ asking for pitches favorable for shot making.

Plus India only has 3 world class bowlers outside of India and only 2 played they left Ashwin out.

If you read my posts carefully, it's not just one match. 3rd test vs SA, they were chased down in the 4th innings, same in the 2nd test and now this test match.
 
I wonder if India's golden period of fast bowling is coming to an end. The thrashing they received just now will be one to remember for many years.
 
The title of this thread is sporting blasphemy and frankly an insult to the great bowlers of the past. To call an attack comprising Bumrah (under 200 wickets), Shami (test average of 27 is not remotely an average of a great player), Ashwin (home track bully who gets battered overseas) as great is ridiculous.
 
India’s bowling attack (first choice minus Ashwin) will need to try and bounce back quickly from this record defeat, as other teams have now seen their vulnerability and will look to replicate what England have done. This is set to be a psychological test for Bumrah & Co.
 
Sure to an average bowler like Shami it is the best attack ever his country has! It would have only been a surprise had a real classy fast bowler said it. As it is a very average bowler making these nonsensical claims most sane Cricket fans know Shami is speaking through his back side.
 
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