Bewal Express
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Why are those guys wearing Orange? Are they Dutch football fans?Hindus don't need to wear their religion. That's the very basic difference between you and a Hindu.
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Why are those guys wearing Orange? Are they Dutch football fans?Hindus don't need to wear their religion. That's the very basic difference between you and a Hindu.
Lol.
Opinion of Paranjoy Guha Thakurta as Evidence.
First of all, is that a fact or opinion? Do you understand different persons will have different views, opinions on this matter? This is where hindusim fundamentally differs from islam viewpoint.Why do you think that Hindus search for appeasement from Muslims at stated by uppercut and cricket cartoons?
Even in a hindu family, there are atheists .
As an example for this case: In a family, one person can turn into a atheist. He doesn't recognize himself as a Hindu and not practise any hindu rituals. But he won't go on and whiplash his family for practising Hinduism.Are you saying a person can be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time?
It is an opinion.First of all, is that a fact or opinion? Do you understand different persons will have different views, opinions on this matter? This is where hindusim fundamentally differs from islam viewpoint.
Hindus are not programmed in a factory sort of setup. We are not a herd. Even in this thread, some Hindus may have different views. Even in a hindu family, there are atheists . We have a higher limit for accommodating diverse views. We don't say you should agree with me or else you are not a Hindu.
Do you understand English? As an example for this case: In a family, one person can turn into a atheist. He doesn't recognize himself as a Hindu and not practise any hindu rituals. But he won't go on and whiplash his family for practising Hinduism.
Be glad most differences stop at name calling. Tbh, the other batch also calls these ppl andhbhakts, RSS, right wingers etc., Each group tries to push their narrative. That's natural and It is fine as long as done within the law ambit.It is an opinion.
Yes, you can be a hindu culturally but not theistically. I know at least one muslim guy in real life who doesn't believe in the supernatural things mentioned in his holy book and doesnt believe in a personal god watching over humans, but loves the muslim tradition of festivals, imagery, poetry and community.Are you saying a person can be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time?
The strata that outsiders fail to grasp which was addressed by German sociologist max weber.97% of worlds Hindus live in India and Nepal.
What variations in society and stratas are they facing?
First point on Romanian - not me. See post#479 regarding diverse viewpoints. Tbh, no one raised that topic in this thread until you did.Yes you do. You guys blamed a " riot" by Romanian gypsies on the Muslims when you knew it was lie. You talked about triple talaq and halal being forced on people without any evidence because you read on some right wing websites. You may not care for Hinduism because apparently it gets in the way of progress and that is fine but you are not like us, we generally care
What did Weber say?The strata that outsiders fail to grasp which was addressed by German sociologist max weber.
I have yet to see any Hindu openly discuss things like Karma and Caste system.First point on Romanian - not me. See post#479 regarding diverse viewpoints. Tbh, no one raised that topic in this thread until you did.
Second point - I didn't say muslims are doing it. You passed a blanket comment that most Hindus ditch their religion in the west. By the same coin you should also implement every islamic tradition in a western country otherwise you would be "ditching" some part of islam. Ain't it? Therefore, It was a rhetorical question asking you if halal, triple talaq and other bits etc are something you want to be implemented in the west. Else, you are ditching some part of Islam for progress
Those people are exceptions rather than the norm. I can categorically assure you that these people are in no way representative of real Hindu Beliefs whatsoever . It Is exactly like the whiskey drinking and pork eating muslims. Doesnt mean that those are no longer prohibited in your religion.
I don’t think it’s as straight forward as this and you guys know it too. Hinduism is not well defined and rigid in its rules like Islam. This is something Hindus actually take pride in and have expressed this trait several times here. Some Indians may truly believe in protecting cows but there are others who actually eat cows and don’t believe it should be protected as such.I know Muslims who drink alcohol, eats pork.
They don't need to do anything.
They can go and jump into the sea if it makes them happy. What can I do?
We are just having a conversation and exchanging views. You don't need to act upon it or consider it binding.
Instead you seem to want one way propaganda about Hindus being enlighten and evolved and no right of reply.
So, Paranjoy's opinion doesn't matter and your opinion does. Is that what you are saying?
I have yet to see any Hindu openly discuss things like Karma and Caste system.
Usually when these topics are discussed they just hehehe and talk about something else.
This is just my observation and hence why I made the point I did earlier.
Even there is a chance to discuss it they will try and frame it in a different point of view to make it more palatable. Such as the cow thing for example. Only when a brave man who wears his heart on his sleeve had the guts to explain just how holy cow is was I able to understand it. Otherwise the mainstream Hindu arguments were linking it to pork and alcohol.
Under last 10 years of Modi rule I have started to see this change. Mainly from a nationalist perspective but slightly from religious perspective too.
We are saying it more and more. I think it's a good thing. Some of my fellow Muslims call it hindutva because they think it's extremism...but for me I think it's a reclaim of heritage and pride in Hinduism itself.
These topics aren't stand alone. You guys ran to the gypsy thread and attacked Muslims. When that happens, u don't hold back. You look to attack us at every opportunity even when it's none of your business. On these threads you fellow contributors told us how much they cared for white supremacists and how you are worried for their survivalFirst point on Romanian - not me. See post#479 regarding diverse viewpoints. Tbh, no one raised that topic in this thread until you did.
Second point - I didn't say muslims are doing it. You passed a blanket comment that most Hindus ditch their religion in the west. By the same coin you should also implement every islamic tradition in a western country otherwise you would be "ditching" some part of islam. Ain't it? Therefore, It was a rhetorical question asking you if halal, triple talaq and other bits etc are something you want to be implemented in the west. Else, you are ditching some part of Islam for progress
I am open to any question on these topics.I have yet to see any Hindu openly discuss things like Karma and Caste system.
Usually when these topics are discussed they just hehehe and talk about something else.
This is just my observation and hence why I made the point I did earlier.
We can agree on the last paraUnder last 10 years of Modi rule I have started to see this change. Mainly from a nationalist perspective but slightly from religious perspective too.
We are saying it more and more. I think it's a good thing. Some of my fellow Muslims call it hindutva because they think it's extremism...but for me I think it's a reclaim of heritage and pride in Hinduism itself.
For the first concern, me as Hindu not believing it and what Hinduism doesn't believe are very different aspect. Just because some guys do eat beef doesn't mean Hinduism allows it. It's just a blanket statement those people that you know used in order to convince their sanity that they still follow Hinduism. It again goes back to identity crisis. Just because Hinduism is flexible doesn't mean it doesn't have restricted rules.I don’t think it’s as straight forward as this and you guys know it too. Hinduism is not well defined and rigid in its rules like Islam. This is something Hindus actually take pride in and have expressed this trait several times here. Some Indians may truly believe in protecting cows but there are others who actually eat cows and don’t believe it should be protected as such.
But more importantly, why do Hindus feel this protected status should be shoved on others? Muslims don’t eat pork but they don’t force Hindus don’t observe it. So why do muslims have to abide by Hindu religious norms?
Starting from 18th century, the study of society always followed a euro centric model. It was based upon somewhat along the principle of Darwinism's theory of evolution. While European societies took the position at the apex (the perfect version after years and years of evolution of societies) but the eastern societies are homogeneous and still will have to pass through the phases that European societies passed through once.What did Weber say?
Thanks for info will read it in detailStarting from 18th century, the study of society always followed a euro centric model. It was based upon somewhat along the principle of Darwinism's theory of evolution. While European societies took the position at the apex (the perfect version after years and years of evolution of societies) but the eastern societies are homogeneous and still will have to pass through the phases that European societies passed through once.
Weber opined that, the variations which were being taken in to consideration while measuring the evolution of a society, since they were taken from the frame of reference that of European society, thus eastern societies will always be behind. One needs to understand meaning that is attached by the local people in order to understand the variations and heterogeneous nature of the society.
In short, you are following the theory of evolutionary sociology, which has been out of interest due to its failure of addressing non European society.
Currently it's interpretive method which is used in order to understand various parameters of the society including variations.
Read my question, I asked if you wanted such practices spelt out in your books should be implemented in west. I didn't talk your personal practice of Islam. I'm not an authority on your religion to judge your Islam adherence and I don't even act like one contrary to the Muslims here. I'm here to correct some of your misconceptions of Hinduism in the language you understand. It takes an idiot to find out an idiot, I leave it to you if you called me anything.These topics aren't stand alone. You guys ran to the gypsy thread and attacked Muslims. When that happens, u don't hold back. You look to attack us at every opportunity even when it's none of your business. On these threads you fellow contributors told us how much they cared for white supremacists and how you are worried for their survival
As far as Islamic principles are concerned, once again another idiot tells what they are. I am pray, I fast, I have been to Hajj, and I give charity. Which principle have I compromised.i openly show that I am Muslim and I am happy to say it to anyone on any forum.
I going no idea what you are on about. You asked if I have compromised to live in the West and I haven't. When you guys believe yourself to be honoury whites to attack us, then why are you surprised when we point that you guys are happy to ditch your religion( generally) without a 2nd thoughtRead my question, I asked if you wanted such practices spelt out in your books should be implemented in west. I didn't talk your personal practice of Islam. I'm not an authority on your religion to judge your Islam adherence and I don't even act like one contrary to the Muslims here. I'm here to correct some of your misconceptions of Hinduism in the language you understand. It takes an idiot to find out an idiot, I leave it to you if you called me anything.
What rules or laws are Islamic countries shoving down other people?For the first concern, me as Hindu not believing it and what Hinduism doesn't believe are very different aspect. Just because some guys do eat beef doesn't mean Hinduism allows it. It's just a blanket statement those people that you know used in order to convince their sanity that they still follow Hinduism. It again goes back to identity crisis. Just because Hinduism is flexible doesn't mean it doesn't have restricted rules.
Secondly, it has nothing to do with religion. It's a side effect of democracy. You'll always see majority dominating in different aspects of a state unless minority appeasing goes on. In democracy, you'll have to follow what majority people wants. Islamic nations shove many rules which you don't realise because you'll take them as taken for granted.
Except beef, what else restriction you see in India?What rules or laws are Islamic countries shoving down other people?
Apart from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc, you can consume alcohol if you want, you can eat what you want. There is no restriction on such stuff. If you are not Muslim you can practice your faith. You can eat pork in Pakistan is you can find it and I’m sure nobody will stop you from it.
There is no imposition of stuff like that.
They want to act as victims of some Muslim takeover. I have never s Muslim that gives a toss about themWhat rules or laws are Islamic countries shoving down other people?
Apart from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc, you can consume alcohol if you want, you can eat what you want. There is no restriction on such stuff. If you are not Muslim you can practice your faith. You can eat pork in Pakistan is you can find it and I’m sure nobody will stop you from it.
There is no imposition of stuff like that.
Why will Hindus discuss their beliefs in open? They don't need to convince anyone to convert to their beliefs.
Unless and until there is a deliberate attempt to outrage his beliefs Hindus will keep their religion private.
Where have I lectured about secularism. It is something you guys debate all day long amongst your political parties and it makes the news.Pakistan is Islamic republic with no democracy, yet pakistanis will lecture Indians on secularism and democracy.
Paranjoy Guha Thakurta writes for Newsclick. Newsclick is one of the several media outlets that are under investigation for taking Chinese money to spread propoganda.
They were outed by the NYT.
Paranjoy Guha Thakurta also alleged that there was scam in Rafale purchase. Opposition parties went to supreme court on basis of that only for the court to find no corruption.
But Muslims who drink whisky and eat pork do it because they are not religious, they don't try and claim it as halal behaviour.
With Hinduism, we see many hindus on these forums claiming it is ok to be a hindu atheist, and that surely means the cow is not a sacred animal, so cow slaughter and beef consumption is not a problem for hindus. They claim hinduism is a culture not a religion.
I going no idea what you are on about. You asked if I have compromised to live in the West and I haven't. When you guys believe yourself to be honoury whites to attack us, then why are you surprised when we point that you guys are happy to ditch your religion( generally) without a 2nd thought
My observation of the Hindus i know. When I do a peer reviewed study, I will send you the findingsWhat is the yardstick you used to decide if Hindus have ditched their religion in the West?
My observation of the Hindus i know. When I do a peer reviewed study, I will send you the findings
Some of the nicest people you could meet but That religion matters not. Almost embarrassed about their religious heritage.What were your observations?
On the other hand the Ind Christians were proud of their beliefs. Would make a real song and dance( quire literally) about the culture and beliefs. Also very nice people and amazing kidsWhat were your observations?
Some of the nicest people you could meet but That religion matters not. Almost embarrassed about their religious heritage.
Fair enough. As I said my observations aren't your cup of tea.Hindus rarely wear their religion on their sleeves like Muslims do ... but if crowds at Temples are any indication you will find massive numbers in western countries . And no beef at Indian restaurants is another proxy measure.
And we're back to the start. Let's revise the arguments.I don’t think it’s as straight forward as this and you guys know it too. Hinduism is not well defined and rigid in its rules like Islam. This is something Hindus actually take pride in and have expressed this trait several times here. Some Indians may truly believe in protecting cows but there are others who actually eat cows and don’t believe it should be protected as such.
But more importantly, why do Hindus feel this protected status should be shoved on others? Muslims don’t eat pork but they don’t force Hindus don’t observe it. So why do muslims have to abide by Hindu religious norms?
And we're back to the start. Let's revise the arguments.
However virtually every Muslim majority country makes insulting the Prophet punishable by death.
I agree with the principle of not imposing your views on others but are you going to be the one who tells
- A fervent Muslim that you revere the Prophet but don't react at all if someone else makes fun of him in front of you even if you're in the majority in your country?
- A deeply religious Hindu that you avoid beef but don't react at all if someone slaughters your sacred animal in front of you even in a Hindu majority country?
Religious people have eccentricities and need some exceptions. Let's allow them those as long as they're able to do it democratically.
Based on my personal experiences the reason why the simple concept of mutual respect does not resonate with most Muslims Is because they have been brought up with the notion that there is one and only one true religion( no exceptions) and all others are not and to be not trusted and dealt with contempt. And This is all sanctioned.
Now you would think that well educated Muslims would not subscribe to that thought process but shockingly that is not the case at all !! The evidence is right here on this forum and soo many Pakistani Cricketers saying atrocious things .... with Ahmed Shehzad taking the cake for telling Dilshan to convert or else he is going straight to hell.
Hitler also said German race is the superior to all races..we know from history what followed next
very simple : Brute force.
Here is the question again:
why are cows being killed in india by muslims despite being aware that the cow is sacred for Hindus? This suggests that they do not value Hindu religious sensitivities and are plain intolerant bigots
Believing that only one God exists is not intolerance lol.
It is the defining feature of Abrahmic religions.
Abrahamovic or not, Why can't other religions also have their own beliefs? There is a difference between
1. My religion is good for me. It serves me the best. I should preserve it from disappearing.
2. My religion is the best. Rest all are trash. My religion is also the best for everyone else too. They don't know this and I'm going to make them realize it I will trash and treat their current beliefs with utter contempt but they can't say anything back.
We know who is following which method. This is not medieval period where you can get away with second method without any repercussion atleast in some parts of the world still.
Yes, they can eat but not in Indian states where it is banned legally. They will prosecuted as per applicable law. Indian Muslims can elect their representatives, get electorate majority, change the law and then eat in those states too technically.Indeed, hope you'll agree that hard-right hindus should be tolerant & not prevent other religious folk from enjoying cow meat.
My previous reply is as per law. Now, on a societal level, tolerance is mutual. There are villages and towns where Hindus and Muslims celebrate festivals of both religions together. It is a give and take.Indeed, hope you'll agree that hard-right hindus should be tolerant & not prevent other religious folk from enjoying cow meat.
Indeed, hope you'll agree that hard-right hindus should be tolerant & not prevent other religious folk from enjoying cow meat.
its just codification of intolerance.Believing that only one God exists is not intolerance lol.
It is the defining feature of Abrahmic religions.
So you mean Hindus must set aside their beliefs for others who dont value our beliefs ?
I asked you for scholarly studies and research on this issue and you reply with two words.
Isn't there any evidence or literature on mass forced conversion campaigns in the Mughal era ?
its just codification of intolerance.
Its the equivalent of Slavery is moral becos it says so in the old testamant, neither does new testament and quran condemn it.
Its by the "book"
So me being intolerant towards slavery is being intolerant towards judaism/Xtianity and islam?
While that's an ideal scenario i.e. total freedom to do with your words, body and possessions as you wish as long as you're not physically hurting anyone else, there is no society on earth that's able to enforce it.Your beliefs will be valued by others only to the point that they aren't personally affected by it. Cows aren't hindu property. They belong to everyone in India.
Virtually every country has public decency laws on how much of your body you're allowed to show in public. These are not governed by some universal standard of body coverage but the sensibilities of the majority of the population. By your standards, everyone's body is their own and showing an extra organ or two doesn't personally affect anybody else.
In public yes, in private no.
There are nudity beaches and nudity clubs in many places in Europe and the USA where decency laws don't apply.
Are you saying there are no laws based on people's feelings and social norms in the western world? Only cold, logical, science based laws? How about abortion laws, gun laws, holocaust denial, LGBT marriage, LGBT adoption? Why allow social norms space but not religion?In public yes, in private no.
There are nudity beaches and nudity clubs in many places in Europe and the USA where decency laws don't apply.
In that case, we should also create special spaces where we're freely allowed to insult religious figures, burn religious books, allow in public etc. I think I might just move to these free for all spaces that you're advocating the creation of.So, to bring the analogy to full circle, I've mentioned in earlied threads that India could create special zones where cow is slaughtered and meat sold, areas that orthodox hindus can stay away from so that they're sensibilities are not affected.
If orthodox hindus can tolerate neighbouring states like Kerala or Bengal where cow slaughter is allowed, I'm sure they won't object to zones within their state that allow for cow slaughter, to cater to non-hindus. It is a distinction without a difference.
Are you saying there are no laws based on people's feelings and social norms in the western world? Only cold, logical, science based laws? How about abortion laws, gun laws, holocaust denial, LGBT marriage, LGBT adoption? Why allow social norms space but not religion?
In that case, we should also create special spaces where we're freely allowed to insult religious figures, burn religious books, allow public etc. I think I might just move to these free for all spaces that you're advocating the creation of.
It took decades of universal education, political campaigning, court judgements etc. to get these basic freedoms. Even after that, it's only a few years since Same-Sxx marriage was legally allowed in the States when it didn't affect anyone except the two poor dude/dudettes actually getting married. The US I'm sorry to tell you is no libertarian utopia and is in danger of sliding back if Trump comes to power.There are laws based on social norms & people's feelings but their usually confined to the public realm. Like you said - obscenity laws.
I don't know about the rest but the lone superpower of our world, the USA, has tried to be .. a libertarian utopia, where anything is allowed in privacy of your property.
What do you think the something is that India is doing well?Gotta love the craving to impinge on other religion beliefs.
India must be doing something really right to be doing so well in recent years. The respect India has globally speaks for itself. On the other hand, Pakistan created exclusively for Muslims is in a pathetic state looking for loans every year. So, I guess India needn't change anything for Muslims or based on outside muslims' opinions.
If Indian Muslims are too worried about something, they can make it happen through normal process - get majority, convince electorate and make the new laws. Until then, learn to live abiding by the current laws.
Do you really believe all Hindus fall into category 1 and all Muslims fall into category 2?Abrahamovic or not, Why can't other religions also have their own beliefs? There is a difference between
1. My religion is good for me. It serves me the best. I should preserve it from disappearing.
2. My religion is the best. Rest all are trash. My religion is also the best for everyone else too. They don't know this and I'm going to make them realize it I will trash and treat their current beliefs with utter contempt but they can't say anything back.
We know who is following which method. This is not medieval period where you can get away with second method without any repercussion atleast in some parts of the world still.
Not all.Do you really believe all Hindus fall into category 1 and all Muslims fall into category 2?
You can say that about any competing ideologies that people feel deeply about - capitalists/communists, conservatives/liberals, cultural issues etc. Religion is stronger than most but i'm not even sure it's as bad as political ideologies nowadays. When I see the vitriol between the Imran Khan fan club vs. PMLN supporters or Modi Bhakts vs. haters on this forum, I sometimes feel Hindu-Muslim conflict is a pale shadow. In most western countries, the conflict between Social/poltical philosophies is so shrill today, it's constantly breaking out into violence.Both religions are at odds with each other with contrasting philosophies. Liberals for sure can claim dosti yaari, but devoted Hindus and Muslims can only form superficial bonds, cracks will appear eventually.
Not all.
Category 1: majority Hindus fall into this category and a minor extent of muslims possibly
Category 2: majority Muslims and minority Hindus.
As majority will drive the narrative and push the agenda, that's good enough for argument sake.
Even if this small thread is sample, you can find the above trend. To your credit, you acknowledged cow slaughter is a sensitive issue to Hindus. Except you, all others were arguing contemptuously that we don't value what Hindus think. While that maybe so privately or in islamic countries, is it a desirable tendency in a society where Hindus and Muslims must co-exist? If Hindus are majority but still can't their views and opinions respected, what is the use? Tomorrow, they will say we will do something else. Where is the end?
What do you think the something is that India is doing well?
Oh ok that has nothing to do with the thread discussion.Education, business leadership, internet literacy and digital penetration, support for the poorest, lower corruption, Generally good policy making in the interest of the nation to begin with.
Respect to you and such people for respecting our sensitivities.I am disappointed by the arguments of some in this thread but that's the internet for you.
In real life in India - Dar Ul Uloom Deoband has called for Muslims to not eat beef in bans are in place. I think that is a better measure of the respect of the sensitivity of beef than the opinion of posters on this forum.
I think you are being too generous with Hindus here with your split of majority of Hindu falls under category 1.
I do think there is something to what he says. It's changing because of dedicated efforts by the likes of the VHP, BJP and other associates parties but Hinduism has a tradition of being big tent and tolerant compared to other major religions.I am disappointed by the arguments of some in this thread but that's the internet for you.
In real life in India - Dar Ul Uloom Deoband has called for Muslims to not eat beef in bans are in place. I think that is a better measure of the respect of the sensitivity of beef than the opinion of posters on this forum.
I think you are being too generous with Hindus here with your split of majority of Hindu falls under category 1.
How could Muslims be bigot to eat an animal that is also permissible in your religion. And if they do eat and sacrifice in not open or conspicuous places then what is wrong with that. And cows are not endangered species too.Asking that question again that nobody wants to touch. Once we find the answer to that it will go a long way in addressing the OP posed by @The Bald Eagle
I'm not sure who this strange guy is but are you saying he is a major Hindu guru and vedic expert? He doesn't look like it.How could Muslims be bigot to eat an animal that is also permissible in your religion. And if they do eat and sacrifice in not open or conspicuous places then what is wrong with that. And cows are not endangered species too.