Virat Kohli - A bottler in ODI knockouts?

[QalandarFan]

I’ve been disappointed and I’m sure he will agree too that he hasn’t lived up to the expectations in the knockouts, and in world cups as a whole.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

He is just trying to hard. The time he put in his head that tis 35 from Kohli is a very good knock and won the match for India it was finished for him.

Sachin played a farrrrr greater knock in 1996 SF while having zero support.

Got dismissed in an unlucky manner.

And that knock is barely mentioned in his career knocks.

And here one 35 by Kohli is the main career highlight in a tourney.

If not for others in the final, the same knock by Kohli would have been called a failure.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Kohli failed in

2011 qf, sf
2015 qf, sf
2019 sf

And played an excellent support role in 2011 sure but others had to do the main grunt work.

And you think calling him as being obliterated as an emotional response?

What can i say.

Check what other GOAT contenders have achieved.

There's also X factor. ABD once came into bat after 38th over then scored 149 off 44 balls, then again 162 off 66 in World Cup.

Kohli unfortunately hasn't done anything noteworthy in ODIs other than chasing in bilaterals.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Same way if not for Jaddu and Ash defending a below par total in CT 2013 (with Ishant getting some fluke wickets)..that knock would have been done and dusted too.

When will Kohli take responsibility and lead the charge.

In World T20 he was super duper clutch. Insane player.

In ODIs, he has been hiding behind

Tendu
Yuvi
Dhawan
And now Rohit

How can this be defended?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

There's also X factor. ABD once came into bat after 38th over then scored 149 off 44 balls, then again 162 off 66 in World Cup.

Kohli unfortunately hasn't done anything noteworthy in ODIs other than chasing in bilaterals.

Absolutely. So disappointing.

He is the chase master.

He hasnt chased anything. Even 240.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Kohli is never under pressure while batting so the thing astonishes me that why he continues to fail in big ICC knockout matches , there is no reason whatsoever for this. He scored 5 fifties in a row in the world cup and i don't think anyone else has done this before. Amir was bowling very well against him in the CT final and boult was more than amazing against him. In the last two matches you can't really fault kohli.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Same way if not for Jaddu and Ash defending a below par total in CT 2013 (with Ishant getting some fluke wickets)..that knock would have been done and dusted too.

When will Kohli take responsibility and lead the charge.

In World T20 he was super duper clutch. Insane player.

In ODIs, he has been hiding behind

Tendu
Yuvi
Dhawan
And now Rohit

How can this be defended?

In ODI WCs i mean.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Kohli is never under pressure while batting so the thing astonishes me that why he continues to fail in big ICC knockout matches , there is no reason whatsoever for this. He scored 5 fifties in a row in the world cup and i don't think anyone else has done this before. Amir was bowling very well against him in the CT final and boult was more than amazing against him. In the last two matches you can't really fault kohli.

If you cant fault Kohli who has lost us multiple tourneys..then when can you fault him?

After his career is over?

I dont buy this logic.

So we have to lose countless tourneys and wait patiently for the legendary kaptan to score in one knockout so we can proclaim him as the GOAT?

Nah we aint doing that.

 

[satheesh]

Kohli failed in

2011 qf, sf
2015 qf, sf
2019 sf

And played an excellent support role in 2011 sure but others had to do the main grunt work.

And you think calling him as being obliterated as an emotional response?

What can i say.

Check what other GOAT contenders have achieved.

no ..... you are discrediting Kohli's 4 knock out inns as virtually of nothing worth .I fully agree with you that he has been below par by his own standards in world cups.But simply projecting his failures by fully discarding all these knock out inns is not fair at all.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

no ..... you are discrediting Kohli's 4 knock out inns as virtually of nothing worth .I fully agree with you that he has been below par by his own standards in world cups.But simply projecting his failures by fully discarding all these knock out inns is not fair at all.

He has been below par by anyone's standards.

He has been a joke in WC knockouts.

Acknowledge it bro.

I have defended Kohli countless times and i rate him above Tendu in certain aspects but we are not doing the "he's been below his usual standards" here.

He's been an utter failure in the biggest event of them all.

 

[jnaveen1980]

WHen he is under the pump he tends to play a highly low-percentage shot. In CT final he went right across to splice it to point. Even here he went right across to swinging ball. When you are not 100% confident even your go-to shot will desert you. That is what happening to him

 

[Joseph Gomes]

"He's been below his usual standards" is a poor excuse for a supposedly GOAT contender (which Kohli isn't anymore).

 

[satheesh]

He has been below par by anyone's standards.

He has been a joke in WC knockouts.

Acknowledge it bro.

I have defended Kohli countless times and i rate him above Tendu in certain aspects but we are not doing the "he's been below his usual standards" here.

He's been an utter failure in the biggest event of them all.

"He's been below his usual standards" is a poor excuse for a supposedly GOAT contender (which Kohli isn't anymore).

no doubt that he has been far way off . But yet , his exploits other than that in world cups can't be neglected as a whole which in turn calls for an evaluation w.r.t his position as a batsman. Here I think he is still destined to be an ATG batsman.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

no doubt that he has been far way off . But yet , his exploits other than that in world cups can't be neglected as a whole which in turn calls for an evaluation w.r.t his position as a batsman. Here I think he is still destined to be an ATG batsman.

He is already ATG.

No one will deny that barring a small minority.

He didn't have a bad WC.

Just doesn't seem to turn up when its most needed.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

no doubt that he has been far way off . But yet , his exploits other than that in world cups can't be neglected as a whole which in turn calls for an evaluation w.r.t his position as a batsman. Here I think he is still destined to be an ATG batsman.

Nobody is arguing (except haters ) that Kohli isn't an ATG in ODIs. All this talk is about him being a GOAT contender, like Viv, Tendulkar, Ponting and ABD.

 

[Mobashir]

Such a shame for him that Steven Smith looks to be in the mood to play another Masterclass.
Has shown Kohli how to do it when the ball is swinging early.

 

[RamLakhan]

That's why it is important to cover up all loopholes! If India had good batsmen at No.4 & No.5, I am 100% sure that they would have chased this total (This is not 300 or even 270!) with Pant at No.6, Pandya at No.7 & Jadeja at No.8... If you make such tactical mistakes then it will come back and bite you personally! If India had won this match (tough match), then finals would have been lot easier maybe! (like How Australia had tough semifinal in 1999 and easier final!) Then these accusations of knockout-bottling would vanish! Let Kohli pay for this for backing ill-things in team-management!

 

[RamLakhan]

Such a shame for him that Steven Smith looks to be in the mood to play another Masterclass.
Has shown Kohli how to do it when the ball is swinging early.

Smith may fail in the finals OR Australia may not even win this semifinals! If Kohli had won it against NZ and then failed in the finals then he would have been again accused (personally) for shining against weaker opponent/chasing easy target and then failing in the BIG finals! That's why you (or rather people like Kohli) should see this as a team game and get the team-composition right! If the team wins then normally people won't point any individual for failures and they won't have any issues! It is not like only ATG player should step up in the big finals, the whole team should step up!

 

[LongtimeLurk3r]

*Yawn*

Kohli will be back to being the greatest in a few months time. He has done more than most batsmen through their careers. So, he had a middling wc. Big deal!

 

[Joseph Gomes]

*Yawn*

Kohli will be back to being the greatest in a few months time. He has done more than most batsmen through their careers. So, he had a middling wc. Big deal!

Given that WC is by far the biggest deal in ODIs, yes it's a big deal.

 

[LongtimeLurk3r]

Ppl find issues with Tendulkar and other Indian greats using some ridiculous filters on this site. Not surprised to see this as well. Whether PakPassioners' find him worthy or not, pretty sure what the rest of the cricket world consider his worth to be.

 

[Mobashir]

Against SA: Just show your bias or your incompetence to analyse anything related to Kohli or other indian batsmen.
To point out Ponting against South Africa is a big lol.
Ponting's record against them in that period is very very good. He has the most runs against SA in ODI's from 95 to 2011 at a very good average of 40 and also the second best strike rate (after Gilly) for batsmen scoring over 1000 runs.

In the same period if you look at the record against South Africa away from home or on neutral venue to avoid home advantage you will see how well Ricky Ponting did against South Africans. Over 26 innings he keeps his average of over 40 at a SR of 86 with 2 hundreds and 6 fifties.
Compare this to other legends from the same era and you will see:
Tendulkar : 27 innings, avg 31, SR 70. 1 hundred
Lara : 16 innings, average 35, SR 79 2 hundreds

Ponting was the best batsman vs South Africa during his playing days. You can disagree with this, but to point it out as a failure... Bravo!

Against Pak : Pakistan pace attack was strong till 2003. His average against them is 46, SR 85 with one hundred and 7 fifties in 21 innings. Again, this is one of his strongest point and you are listing it at a weak point.
Again you compare it to Tendulkar, Lara, Azharudeen, or any other batsman in the same period and Ricky Ponting will come on top.

And even if you look at the whole career against pakistan, his stats are more than fine. No, non-asian batsman can claim to have done better.

His record against west indies is okaish for the era but yes others have done better. West Indies was already not such a good side anyway from 1996.

Again you are not considering different eras into consideration, on purpose or you forget it?

Ricky Ponting played in 5 world cups from 96 to 2011 and he was arguably the best batsmen over these 5 world cups.
Excluding minnows from those era and sticking to top 8 : Ponting has the most world cup runs, most hundreds, on of the best averages, Some of the finest knocks.
To just point out 3 scored in semis and then tell a story is not enough.

On the other hand, if you look at Virat's record for batsmen playing in world cups in his era, he will be lost and counted as a normal batsman. Average of 46 and SR of 86 where some of the greats are averaging over 90 and SR of 100 or even 120's for ABDV. And most of the good batsmen are averaging over 50-60.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

 

[tyron_woodley]

most overrated fodder odi player in KO stages. dhawan is the real superstar.

 

[frenchcut]

Amusing how tendulkar’s finals record (grand total of two innings) was used to beat him with a stick, and now he is the Original King of Pressure Matches once Kohli has failed to score in a few big knockouts.

Move along gents, they both are nonetheless the #1 and #2 best limited overs cricketers in history (feel free to choose the order - an acceptable, albeit tedious, discussion).

League-stage world cup matches (and five consecutive punchy fifties) that get you into semi finals no longer count for squat?

A 55 average in a global tournament without a single self-indulgent innings is now considered a “middling” outing?

World has gone nuts.

 

[tyron_woodley]

you have to perform in the KO stages to be considered an all time great. Kohli isn't. neither is tendulkar. if he scored a 50 in semis and finals in the next world cup or atleast a reasonable score which helps india win the title then we can herald kohli as an all time GOAT. until then he is a choker.

 

[frenchcut]

you have to perform in the ko stages to be considered an all time great. Kohli isn't.

ok/true

neither is tendulkar.

ok/true

if he scored a 50 in semis and finals in the next world cup we can herald kohli as an all time great

#ref

 

[OffDrive]

Amusing how tendulkar’s finals record (grand total of two innings) was used to beat him with a stick, and now he is the Original King of Pressure Matches once Kohli has failed to score in a few big knockouts.

Move along gents, they both are nonetheless the #1 and #2 best limited overs cricketers in history (feel free to choose the order - an acceptable, albeit tedious, discussion).

League-stage world cup matches (and five consecutive punchy fifties) that get you into semi finals no longer count for squat?

A 55 average in a global tournament without a single self-indulgent innings is now considered a “middling” outing?

World has gone nuts.

Tendulkar was never a "King of pressure" matches, in fact, he failed in quite a few of them, another Indian batter who wasn't that good.

 

[jnaveen1980]

you have to perform in the KO stages to be considered an all time great. Kohli isn't. neither is tendulkar. if he scored a 50 in semis and finals in the next world cup or atleast a reasonable score which helps india win the title then we can herald kohli as an all time GOAT. until then he is a choker.

Gautam Gambhir must be a GOAT. So is adam gilchrist. GOAT is loosely defined. You cannot score only in play offs and suck everywhere else and consider yourself a GOAT.

 

[Mirpur express]

Never mind kholi, take a look at our own group stage bottlers *

 

[mastermind_quad]

He is champion player and will go down as a legend for sure.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India has to address this top order collapses in crunch games. Yes Middle order is woeful. But you cannot be 5 for 3 under no circumstances. Kohli handled a much more penetrative Anderson with 4 slips much better in the test series. Only difference is he was playing with straight bat in Test series. In one dayers his instinctive shot is to play across the line. A low risk shot against new ball.

 

[jnaveen1980]

He is champion player and will go down as a legend for sure.

He played well in the world cup upto this point.

 

[MP2011]

Amusing how tendulkar’s finals record (grand total of two innings) was used to beat him with a stick, and now he is the Original King of Pressure Matches once Kohli has failed to score in a few big knockouts.

Move along gents, they both are nonetheless the #1 and #2 best limited overs cricketers in history (feel free to choose the order - an acceptable, albeit tedious, discussion).

League-stage world cup matches (and five consecutive punchy fifties) that get you into semi finals no longer count for squat?

A 55 average in a global tournament without a single self-indulgent innings is now considered a “middling” outing?

World has gone nuts.

lol, its amusing, isn't it? Only the KOs matter and not league games. If that was the case, a certain team would've been in SF.

 

[MP2011]

Such a shame for him that Steven Smith looks to be in the mood to play another Masterclass.
Has shown Kohli how to do it when the ball is swinging early.

lol, what a masterclass! England still won with close to 18 overs still to go.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Sorry for the late reply. I post from my phone so I don't get to check my notifications.

You have completely missed the point of my post regarding Ponting. As I said, if you analyse every player, you will find holes in their careers but if you have watched and followed the career of that player, you would know that downplaying the player because of those holes is wrong. You are justifying his 30s average against South Africa, Pakistan, West Indies as well has failures in three World Cup semi-finals because they don't paint a true picture, and I completely agree with you.

If you follow my posts on Ponting, you would note that I have repeatedly dispelled the notion that Ponting became prolific only when the great bowlers of the 90s retired. People often use that argument to downplay him because they state that between his peak years, i.e. 2002 to 2007, the bowling attacks were not very strong and Ponting had the luxury of not facing Australian bowlers such as McGrath and Warne. I completely disregard that assessment because it was a coincidence that Ponting's peak and the retirement of the 90's bowlers happened simultaneously.

The problem is that you are not applying the same logic to Kohli. Anyone who has followed his career from the start know that he is far from a bottler. He is an extremely competitive player who has performed several knocks under pressure that other batsmen cannot dream of. Anyone who thinks Kohli is a choker either (a) is biased against him or (b) doesn't understand cricket. As far as you are concerned, I am afraid it is (a).

An ODI bottler cannot have a chasing record like Kohli's. No batsman in history is even close to Kohli when it comes to chasing down big totals and the consistency with which he does, and he has done it not only in ODIs but in T20Is as well. You keep comparing Kohli's World Cup record with Amla's, but Kohli's hundred against Pakistan in the 2015 group game is far better than Amla's hundreds against Netherlands, Ireland and in the dead rubber against Sri Lanka. Kohli is 10 times the batsman in tournaments Amla will ever be.

Yes Kohli has failed in three successive semi-finals like Ponting, but that doesn't make him a choker. Anyone is allowed a few bad games. He has played some terrific knocks in tournaments and he will do so in the future. However, Ponting had the luxury of playing in an invincible team who were able to qualify for the final in spite of his failures. Similarly, Gilchrist failed in 7 semi-finals but his team were still good enough to carry him into 5 of those finals.

If we are going to highlight Kohli failing in the Champions Trophy Final then we should also talk about his excellent innings in the 2013 final and the fact that Ponting failed in the 2002 and 2004 Champions Trophy semi-finals as well, both matches which Australia lost.

So to summarise:

Ponting has failed in 5 semi-finals in his career, but you and others are ignoring this point because his team was dominant enough to carry him into several finals and thus giving him opportunities to set the record straight. Any other player with 5 semi-final failures in his career will remembered as a bottler, but that is the luxury players like Ponting and Gilchrist had for playing for that Australian team.

Kohli does not have that luxury. Because the Indian selectors have neglected the the middle-order, the team is over-reliant on him and Rohit, especially now that Dhawan is injured. Unless Kohli fires, they have almost no chance of winning semi-finals and finals. If India were strong enough to play the 2015 World Cup final or the 2019 World Cup final without Kohli firing, and he had he fired in the finals, people would forget about his semi-final failures just like they have forgotten about the semi-final failures of Ponting and Gilchrist.

I have absolutely no issues with people not agreeing that Kohli is the greatest ODI batsman of all time. However, to say that he is a bottler and the likes of Smith, Williamson and Root are better is absolute nonsense. He is leagues above any active ODI batsman in the world.

 

[Tiger96]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Sorry for the late reply. I post from my phone so I don't get to check my notifications.

You have completely missed the point of my post regarding Ponting. As I said, if you analyse every player, you will find holes in their careers but if you have watched and followed the career of that player, you would know that downplaying the player because of those holes is wrong. You are justifying his 30s average against South Africa, Pakistan, West Indies as well has failures in three World Cup semi-finals because they don't paint a true picture, and I completely agree with you.

If you follow my posts on Ponting, you would note that I have repeatedly dispelled the notion that Ponting became prolific only when the great bowlers of the 90s retired. People often use that argument to downplay him because they state that between his peak years, i.e. 2002 to 2007, the bowling attacks were not very strong and Ponting had the luxury of not facing Australian bowlers such as McGrath and Warne. I completely disregard that assessment because it was a coincidence that Ponting's peak and the retirement of the 90's bowlers happened simultaneously.

The problem is that you are not applying the same logic to Kohli. Anyone who has followed his career from the start know that he is far from a bottler. He is an extremely competitive player who has performed several knocks under pressure that other batsmen cannot dream of. Anyone who thinks Kohli is a choker either (a) is biased against him or (b) doesn't understand cricket. As far as you are concerned, I am afraid it is (a).

An ODI bottler cannot have a chasing record like Kohli's. No batsman in history is even close to Kohli when it comes to chasing down big totals and the consistency with which he does, and he has done it not only in ODIs but in T20Is as well. You keep comparing Kohli's World Cup record with Amla's, but Kohli's hundred against Pakistan in the 2015 group game is far better than Amla's hundreds against Netherlands, Ireland and in the dead rubber against Sri Lanka. Kohli is 10 times the batsman in tournaments Amla will ever be.

Yes Kohli has failed in three successive semi-finals like Ponting, but that doesn't make him a choker. Anyone is allowed a few bad games. He has played some terrific knocks in tournaments and he will do so in the future. However, Ponting had the luxury of playing in an invincible team who were able to qualify for the final in spite of his failures. Similarly, Gilchrist failed in 7 semi-finals but his team were still good enough to carry him into 5 of those finals.

If we are going to highlight Kohli failing in the Champions Trophy Final then we should also talk about his excellent innings in the 2013 final and the fact that Ponting failed in the 2002 and 2004 Champions Trophy semi-finals as well, both matches which Australia lost.

So to summarise:

Ponting has failed in 5 semi-finals in his career, but you and others are ignoring this point because his team was dominant enough to carry him into several finals and thus giving him opportunities to set the record straight. Any other player with 5 semi-final failures in his career will remembered as a bottler, but that is the luxury players like Ponting and Gilchrist had for playing for that Australian team.

Kohli does not have that luxury. Because the Indian selectors have neglected the the middle-order, the team is over-reliant on him and Rohit, especially now that Dhawan is injured. Unless Kohli fires, they have almost no chance of winning semi-finals and finals. If India were strong enough to play the 2015 World Cup final or the 2019 World Cup final without Kohli firing, and he had he fired in the finals, people would forget about his semi-final failures just like they have forgotten about the semi-final failures of Ponting and Gilchrist.

I have absolutely no issues with people not agreeing that Kohli is the greatest ODI batsman of all time. However, to say that he is a bottler and the likes of Smith, Williamson and Root are better is absolute nonsense. He is leagues above any active ODI batsman in the world.

Good Post.

Your failures as batsmen are overshadowed when you are part of a strong team who can win you games even when you fail and allow you to have more opportunities to play that one defining knock. As happend with Ponting.

But if you are the among the few reliable batsmen in the team and fail, then all the blame falls on your shoulders, your team loses and you get no more chance to rectify youe record. As happens with Kohli.

 

[fanofcricket4life]

He has been below par by anyone's standards.

He has been a joke in WC knockouts.

Acknowledge it bro.

I have defended Kohli countless times and i rate him above Tendu in certain aspects but we are not doing the "he's been below his usual standards" here.

He's been an utter failure in the biggest event of them all.

In the last three knockout matches Kohli has played in, ct final, 2015 and 2019 semi's, he has scored a grand total of 7 runs. There is no need to argue with anyone who finds excuses with this. One can be bad luck, two can be coincidence, three times means you're just not good enough.

I would pick Smith over Kohli anytime in a do or die high pressure match.

 

[Mobashir]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Sorry for the late reply. I post from my phone so I don't get to check my notifications.

It's ok, no worry.

You have completely missed the point of my post regarding Ponting. As I said, if you analyse every player, you will find holes in their careers but if you have watched and followed the career of that player, you would know that downplaying the player because of those holes is wrong. You are justifying his 30s average against South Africa, Pakistan, West Indies as well has failures in three World Cup semi-finals because they don't paint a true picture, and I completely agree with you.

I don't know who are missing the points here, me or you. I asked you to point out holes in Ponting's ODI career and you said his record against three teams. I went into detail and told you that you were completely wrong. You can't just take numbers and said he failed. Ponting played from 95 to 2011 and in this period he was the best batsman in the world against South Africa in ODI's.
My question is simple to you : Is Ponting's performance against SA a hole?
Same against Pakistan, I showed you the record against Pakistan till the fast bowlers were playing. Again, he is the best in the world against them in that period. So how can you say it is a hole?

The problem is that you are not applying the same logic to Kohli. Anyone who has followed his career from the start know that he is far from a bottler. He is an extremely competitive player who has performed several knocks under pressure that other batsmen cannot dream of. Anyone who thinks Kohli is a choker either (a) is biased against him or (b) doesn't understand cricket. As far as you are concerned, I am afraid it is (a).

I am not biased against Kohli but I have strong bias against overrating. If someone considers Kohli the best batsman in the world it is fine for me. The problem with Kohli and Tendulkar previously, is that Indian fans (like you) put them on a level they are not. In all honesty, Smith is better than Kohli and Root on the same level. But you guys already put him over Ponting, Abdv and Viv. That's out of question, he has done nothing of note, nothing special to be put there.

An ODI bottler cannot have a chasing record like Kohli's. No batsman in history is even close to Kohli when it comes to chasing down big totals and the consistency with which he does, and he has done it not only in ODIs but in T20Is as well. You keep comparing Kohli's World Cup record with Amla's, but Kohli's hundred against Pakistan in the 2015 group game is far better than Amla's hundreds against Netherlands, Ireland and in the dead rubber against Sri Lanka. Kohli is 10 times the batsman in tournaments Amla will ever be.

Yes Kohli has failed in three successive semi-finals like Ponting, but that doesn't make him a choker. Anyone is allowed a few bad games. He has played some terrific knocks in tournaments and he will do so in the future. However, Ponting had the luxury of playing in an invincible team who were able to qualify for the final in spite of his failures. Similarly, Gilchrist failed in 7 semi-finals but his team were still good enough to carry him into 5 of those finals.

If we are going to highlight Kohli failing in the Champions Trophy Final then we should also talk about his excellent innings in the 2013 final and the fact that Ponting failed in the 2002 and 2004 Champions Trophy semi-finals as well, both matches which Australia lost.

So to summarise:

Ponting has failed in 5 semi-finals in his career, but you and others are ignoring this point because his team was dominant enough to carry him into several finals and thus giving him opportunities to set the record straight. Any other player with 5 semi-final failures in his career will remembered as a bottler, but that is the luxury players like Ponting and Gilchrist had for playing for that Australian team.

Kohli does not have that luxury. Because the Indian selectors have neglected the the middle-order, the team is over-reliant on him and Rohit, especially now that Dhawan is injured. Unless Kohli fires, they have almost no chance of winning semi-finals and finals. If India were strong enough to play the 2015 World Cup final or the 2019 World Cup final without Kohli firing, and he had he fired in the finals, people would forget about his semi-final failures just like they have forgotten about the semi-final failures of Ponting and Gilchrist.

I have absolutely no issues with people not agreeing that Kohli is the greatest ODI batsman of all time. However, to say that he is a bottler and the likes of Smith, Williamson and Root are better is absolute nonsense. He is leagues above any active ODI batsman in the world.

You are again missing the point.
Ponting has failed in some WC matches as everyone does, that's not the problem. In Ponting's era (95-11) he is the best WC player in the world; full stop.
Virat Kohli, the greatest cricketer ever according to you, over 26 innings has been nothing more than ok. That's the problem. And if you ad to it now the extreme failures in knock out games it doesn't look good for him. Surely no one is going to play brilliantly in every knock out game.

Regarding chasing: It's very important you understand some things about records in chasing etc because this myth of Kohli is the best because he is master chaser will not work with me.

When you win the toss, what do you choose to do? You choose to do what is the easiest way for your team to win the match. If chasing was so hard, India, England wouldn't have so often bowled first.

Second thing is that if you are chasing 280-370 it means in 95% of the cases that the pitch is very flat. So it's normal that in the second innings are going to make a lot of runs. ODI cricket has greatly changed over the past 15 years. When you are chasing 300 or more surely someone is going to score big behind.

Now, I will wait, and if needed, wait long, for you to show me some Kohli's chasing innings against good (or very good) attacks on a not so flat pitch? Give me a list please.

Is it understandable for you that guys like me don't rate anything against bowlers like Faulkner, Boland, Tye and extreme batting pitches or it is pure bias?

Now tell me what makes Kohli a GOAT candidate so far according to you?

For me, Viv is the GOAT because of his SR (and avg) being about 40 years ahead of his time. He was unique in that sense.

ABDV can be a candidate because over 10 years he has done what no one else can dream to do. Again he was unique. Scoring so heavily at such a SR is unparalleled (and I doubt it will be done again).

Ponting, a level below Viv, but the best of his generation because so complete, nearly no holes in his career.

What about Kohli? Plays more than others so score more than others and has more hundreds? I hope you come with something good. Not just about run scoring, because no doubt he is a run scoring machine.

Last thing to keep in mind : This discussion is only about ODI's.

 

[Vegitto1]

Kohli has played in WCs with:

1. Rohit Sharma
2. Dhoni
3. Tendulkar
4. Yuvraj Singh
5. Dhawan
6. Bumrah
7. Zaheer Khan
8. Jadeja

Are you telling me that in the current Indian team, Kohli is the only star player?

 

[frenchcut]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Sorry for the late reply. I post from my phone so I don't get to check my notifications.

You have completely missed the point of my post regarding Ponting. As I said, if you analyse every player, you will find holes in their careers but if you have watched and followed the career of that player, you would know that downplaying the player because of those holes is wrong. You are justifying his 30s average against South Africa, Pakistan, West Indies as well has failures in three World Cup semi-finals because they don't paint a true picture, and I completely agree with you.

If you follow my posts on Ponting, you would note that I have repeatedly dispelled the notion that Ponting became prolific only when the great bowlers of the 90s retired. People often use that argument to downplay him because they state that between his peak years, i.e. 2002 to 2007, the bowling attacks were not very strong and Ponting had the luxury of not facing Australian bowlers such as McGrath and Warne. I completely disregard that assessment because it was a coincidence that Ponting's peak and the retirement of the 90's bowlers happened simultaneously.

The problem is that you are not applying the same logic to Kohli. Anyone who has followed his career from the start know that he is far from a bottler. He is an extremely competitive player who has performed several knocks under pressure that other batsmen cannot dream of. Anyone who thinks Kohli is a choker either (a) is biased against him or (b) doesn't understand cricket. As far as you are concerned, I am afraid it is (a).

An ODI bottler cannot have a chasing record like Kohli's. No batsman in history is even close to Kohli when it comes to chasing down big totals and the consistency with which he does, and he has done it not only in ODIs but in T20Is as well. You keep comparing Kohli's World Cup record with Amla's, but Kohli's hundred against Pakistan in the 2015 group game is far better than Amla's hundreds against Netherlands, Ireland and in the dead rubber against Sri Lanka. Kohli is 10 times the batsman in tournaments Amla will ever be.

Yes Kohli has failed in three successive semi-finals like Ponting, but that doesn't make him a choker. Anyone is allowed a few bad games. He has played some terrific knocks in tournaments and he will do so in the future. However, Ponting had the luxury of playing in an invincible team who were able to qualify for the final in spite of his failures. Similarly, Gilchrist failed in 7 semi-finals but his team were still good enough to carry him into 5 of those finals.

If we are going to highlight Kohli failing in the Champions Trophy Final then we should also talk about his excellent innings in the 2013 final and the fact that Ponting failed in the 2002 and 2004 Champions Trophy semi-finals as well, both matches which Australia lost.

So to summarise:

Ponting has failed in 5 semi-finals in his career, but you and others are ignoring this point because his team was dominant enough to carry him into several finals and thus giving him opportunities to set the record straight. Any other player with 5 semi-final failures in his career will remembered as a bottler, but that is the luxury players like Ponting and Gilchrist had for playing for that Australian team.

Kohli does not have that luxury. Because the Indian selectors have neglected the the middle-order, the team is over-reliant on him and Rohit, especially now that Dhawan is injured. Unless Kohli fires, they have almost no chance of winning semi-finals and finals. If India were strong enough to play the 2015 World Cup final or the 2019 World Cup final without Kohli firing, and he had he fired in the finals, people would forget about his semi-final failures just like they have forgotten about the semi-final failures of Ponting and Gilchrist.

I have absolutely no issues with people not agreeing that Kohli is the greatest ODI batsman of all time. However, to say that he is a bottler and the likes of Smith, Williamson and Root are better is absolute nonsense. He is leagues above any active ODI batsman in the world.

Fantastic post, couldn’t have put it better myself but looking at the replies you have received insisting that his 3 semi final failures are the be all and end all of his career, you are wasting your time.

If his overall world cup/big tournament record including league stages had no meaningful knocks in there it would be understandable but instead he is castigated for scoring runs in certain matches (when the tournament was very much alive) but not others.

Very simple question to those saying he performed in non-crunch matches that didn’t matter; if you take out each of his innings one by one, what would India’s league table position have looked like?

 

[tyron_woodley]

Fantastic post, couldn’t have put it better myself but looking at the replies you have received insisting that his 3 semi final failures are the be all and end all of his career, you are wasting your time.

If his overall world cup/big tournament record including league stages had no meaningful knocks in there it would suddenly be understandable but instead he is castigated for scoring runs in certain matches (when the tournament was very much alive) but not others.

Very simple question to those saying he performed in non-crunch matches that didn’t matter; if you take out each of his innings one by one, what would India’s league table position have looked like?

well ponting scored in every game including league games and crucial KO games. ponting, VIV Richards are better than kohli until kohli helps india win another world cup title.

 

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well ponting scored in every game including league games and crucial KO games. ponting, VIV Richards are better than kohli until kohli helps india win another world cup title.

According to your narrow criteria, agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Bilal7]

Because there are no KO games in test matches, maybe?

Maybe we can have this conversation when we have the first Test championship final in 2021.

And CT2013 final was a curtailed game. It wasn't a T20 match. All the stats from that match went into the ODI record books, not the T20I record books.

And btw there is no such category as "virtual" KO. It's either a KO match or a league match.

Also, quite disingenuous of you to be okay with bending the rules to allow stats for Babar's "virtual" KOs (read league matches) but suddenly be a stickler for rules when it comes to Kohli's T20I innings which actually came in KO matches. Real KO matches.

You're sounding like someone who does not understand the game. Yes, the records went into the ODI books but a cricket fan would know that it was a T20 match in all but name. Yes, there is no category called "virtual KOs" but a cricket fan would understand that the game against New Zealand was a do-or-die situation for Pakistan and the pressure was the same that is found in KOs. Yes, there are KO matches in T20 cricket as well but T20s are not taken as seriously as ODIs and the pressures they carry are quite different. You don't have to deal with the pressure of building an innings in T20s for example.

 

[Bilal7]

The top three ODI batsmen of all-time:

1) Viv Richards
2) AB de Villiers
3) Ricky Ponting

The order can be debated but these three are a cut above everyone else. Not only did they have long, successful careers and enjoyed periods of time where they were the best in the world, they also stood up when it really mattered during WC KO matches. Sachin comes in at four because he had a near-perfect career other than failing in the two biggest matches of his life.