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Virat Kohli showing AB de Villiers and Hashim Amla who the boss is

Never. :yk

#Aanay do

On a serious note, averages 5.25 with a strike rate of 38 while batting first against Pakistan in 4 ODIs. Averages 11 vs Pak if you take out that 183* innings. Even with it, averages 33 against Pak. So chillax with those 50 centuries.

averages 75 against pakistan in T20s :msd
 
I think Tendulkar's 175 against Australia was chasing 359 which you agree is a daunting task and he brought India so close.. also it was mostly a one-man-show.

That 320 in 40 overs was setup beautifully by Sehwag and Tendulkar and Kohli bulldozed the rest. I don't think that was Kohli's best effort.. I rate today's innings much better.

That day's Sachin dismissal would tell us why Sachin is never equal to Kohli in temperament.

Today's innings was crazy but Hobart innings would go down as one of the very best in LOI history.

Its sheer class the way he constructed the innings that day too.

Of course, I agree opinions vary.
 
Yes, lets leech that performance of 1.5 years ago for the rest of our lives :)))

Lolz. Troll its you who drags same thing in every thread.

On a serious note, when Junaid did that to Kohli thrice were you able to get some sleep? Did you went to shrink? Cuz by what I see post traumatic stress disorder symptoms are apparent :rana
 
I am not doubting IndianWillow's posting sense, I think he talks a lot of sense. But I have a habit of replying to the post and not to the poster (play the ball not the bowler.. he he he).

Unless Kohli owns Junaid in swinging conditions, can't say "he will be toast".

I think you are right in pointing out to me that I micro analyse, but I try and ask questions for clarifications first so that I make sure I get the right intention of the post rather than just rely on the words, hence I asked the question to him rather than interpreting it myself.

Yes, I totally get your point of playing the ball rather than the bowler.

But don't you think that argument can't be applied 100% to conversations?

Like if your close friend says something, you would know from where he is coming and not micro analyze his statements apart from rare cases when you are not sure.

That being said, I get it that we are all wired differently.

Thanks for clarifying your view.
 
I will take Rahul Dravid's opinion about LOI batting if I get some free time.. there are better experts out there.

really? Dravid is underrated as ODI bat.

He averages 39.1 in ODI at 71 strike rate and 12 centuries, 83 half centuries.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/player/28114.html

Incidently Inzi averages 39.5 at 74 strike rate with 10 centuries, 83 half centuries.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/India/content/player/40570.html

and Inzi played down the order and has lot more not outs than him.
 
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I think Tendulkar's 175 against Australia was chasing 359 which you agree is a daunting task and he brought India so close.. also it was mostly a one-man-show.

That 320 in 40 overs was setup beautifully by Sehwag and Tendulkar and Kohli bulldozed the rest. I don't think that was Kohli's best effort.. I rate today's innings much better.

The context were different. Kohli in a must win game, and had to win a bonus point as well. India had to chase 320 from 40 and cruised through in 36.4. Today's innings was a T20 game where more luck is at play, and obviously does not match his incredible ODI knock.

Sehwag and Tendu had both exited at 2/86 and under no ordinary circumstances does a team win a bonus point from there by making 320 off 36.

Tendulkar does have three or four games like this, but he played 450 odd games for that. Kohli at 25 has played only 130 odd, about a fourth of Tendulkar, so we can expect a lot from him, by the time he is done and dusted. Kohli is a master chaser, most of his hundreds in chases led to Indian wins.
 
That day's Sachin dismissal would tell us why Sachin is never equal to Kohli in temperament.

Today's innings was crazy but Hobart innings would go down as one of the very best in LOI history.

Its sheer class the way he constructed the innings that day too.

Of course, I agree opinions vary.

When you talk about one-man-show, you will agree Tendulkar having an edge there..

Also an advice, please watch old videos of some of Tendulkar's ODI innings of 90s when he didn't choke (temperament wise).. he corrected it to some extent in late 2000s..

Tendulkar's innings in 2008 tri-series final in Australia of 117 was his best innings in terms of composure, and playing alone (he took Rohit Sharma along).
 
Is it impossible for a Pakistani to recognize and appreciate the brilliance of an Indian?

Why is my nationality always the subject of debate?
 
AB might choke in a big event held every other year, but most of the year he's not going to lose 15 games in a row like Kohli does. He's a genius batsman. Tackled Irfan a lot better than Kohli who was a sitting duck in front of Irfan and genuinely looked scared. Kohli doesn't have it in him to score a 28 ball 69 that AB scored in his previous match.

He has a 52 ball 100 against Australia with inform renovated MJ2.0

and handles Setyn and Malinga with ease, all three much superior bowlers than Irfan.
 
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The context were different. Kohli in a must win game, and had to win a bonus point as well. India had to chase 320 from 40 and cruised through in 36.4. Today's innings was a T20 game where more luck is at play, and obviously does not match his incredible ODI knock.

Sehwag and Tendu had both exited at 2/86 and under no ordinary circumstances does a team win a bonus point from there by making 320 off 36.

Tendulkar does have three or four games like this, but he played 450 odd games for that. Kohli at 25 has played only 130 odd, about a fourth of Tendulkar, so we can expect a lot from him, by the time he is done and dusted. Kohli is a master chaser, most of his hundreds in chases led to Indian wins.

I am not doubting Kohli's ability or being a better temperament than Tendulkar (in not giving his wicket away)..

but there is a big difference in starting to chase 359 with all the duds around you (somehow whenever Tendulkar played such innings, other players became hopeless), and coming in at 86/2 when the chase is setup beautifully.

Today Kohli did it almost alone and took the match away from a good bowling and fielding side.
 
Is it impossible for a Pakistani to recognize and appreciate the brilliance of an Indian?

Why is my nationality always the subject of debate?

Yep..I used to go crazy over an Akram spell as much as a Tendulkar special.Why people find it hard to accept that appreciating sporting talent has no boundaries...
 
This.

Sachin was not finisher.

Leaving aside the fact that he had no support in hey days, he just couldn't play a finisher's role like Kohli.

A few games here and there doesn't say anything.

Kohli time and again has shown that he can accumulate, accelerate and finish.
I dunno how long you've been watching cricket but let's just stop here & stop embarrassing yourself with arguments which don't have any factual basis !

Tell me one player who's chased down 300+ alone as an opener, SRT nearly did it all by himself in Hyd & the Hobart innings you always remind everyone of Kohli came in at 4 with Gambhir at 3, needless to say there was a good run rate Ind always had which allowed Kihli to finish the game off !

And skills of the two cannot be compared ofr SRT was as complete a batsman as anyone could be at the age of 16, his test achievements, for India, cannot be surpassed alone with numbers & his impact as a batsman in ODI's is visible in player like Yuvraj, Sehwag aet al so there again "he's out of this world" in your langauge !
 
I have a request for Mamoon,please don't make Kohli into another Sachin in PP.Just because of Sachinstas..the poor guy has so much haters..So kohlitas...please don't over do it..
 
Amir is what i call talent. Kohli vs Aamir would have been a battle. Who the hell is Junaid? He is just like Wahab riaz. Pakistani fans can only get happy seeing those 3 time wickets of kohli, because they dont have a Batsman of this calibre. Keep Calm and enjoy this Masterclass.
 
I have a request for Mamoon,please don't make Kohli into another Sachin in PP.Just because of Sachinstas..the poor guy has so much haters..So kohlitas...please don't over do it..

I am not a fan of any particular player.
 
I dunno how long you've been watching cricket but let's just stop here & stop embarrassing yourself with arguments which don't have any factual basis !

Tell me one player who's chased down 300+ alone as an opener, SRT nearly did it all by himself in Hyd & the Hobart innings you always remind everyone of Kohli came in at 4 with Gambhir at 3, needless to say there was a good run rate Ind always had which allowed Kihli to finish the game off !

And skills of the two cannot be compared ofr SRT was as complete a batsman as anyone could be at the age of 16, his test achievements, for India, cannot be surpassed alone with numbers & his impact as a batsman in ODI's is visible in player like Yuvraj, Sehwag aet al so there again "he's out of this world" in your langauge !

Been watching cricket from the late 90's.

Sachin would play amazing strokes and would give away his wicket unnecessarily. I have watched him for over 12 years to know this.

Kohli doesn't do it.

So you say that I would embarrass myself when you take factual analysis but when you compare Kohli with Sachin, you will bring in intangible stuff like other players and stuff?

I agree that Sachin played with a bunch of lulloos. But he would throw away his wicket a lot of times when he was in sublime form.

Stats won't tell you this. You have to watch the match to see this.

I was talking just about ODI's and not tests.

So don't get tensed and all worked up by bringing everything into picture.

Kohli isn't half the batsman Sachin is in terms of pure batsmanship.
 
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Amir is what i call talent. Kohli vs Aamir would have been a battle. Who the hell is Junaid? He is just like Wahab riaz. Pakistani fans can only get happy seeing those 3 time wickets of kohli, because they dont have a Batsman of this calibre. Keep Calm and enjoy this Masterclass.

guys seriously!! We had Steyn vs Kohli today!
How will Aamir vs Kohli be better??

are you suggesting Aamir was better than current Steyn?

that is preposterous!!
 
Been watching cricket from the late 90's.

Sachin would play amazing strokes and would give away his wicket unnecessarily. I have watched him for over 12 years to know this.

Kohli doesn't do it.

So you say that I would embarrass myself when you take factual analysis but when you compare Kohli with Sachin, you will bring in intangible stuff like other players and stuff.

I agree that Sachin played with a bunch of lulloos. But he would throw away his wicket a lot of times when he was in sublime form.

Stats won't tell you this. You have to watch the match to see this.

Stat wise Kohli is better than Sachin while chasing. Overall stats wise too he is better.

I was talking just about ODI's and not tests.

So don't get tensed and all worked up by bringing everything into picture.

Kohli isn't half the batsman Sachin is in terms of pure batsmanship.

Sachin didn't use to choke in early 90s.. it's after 99 may be till 2007..

Also do you remember Kohli's recent hundred against NZ in a losing cause.. most of Tendulkar's innings were like that.
 
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Kohli and ABDV are Lara and Tendulkar of this generation, hard to seperate. All others are one tier below them.

ABDV is a genious too, no sane Indian cricket fan will mock him.
this...top post. AB is still ahead in Tests, comfortably.
 
I dunno how long you've been watching cricket but let's just stop here & stop embarrassing yourself with arguments which don't have any factual basis !

Tell me one player who's chased down 300+ alone as an opener, SRT nearly did it all by himself in Hyd & the Hobart innings you always remind everyone of Kohli came in at 4 with Gambhir at 3, needless to say there was a good run rate Ind always had which allowed Kihli to finish the game off !

And skills of the two cannot be compared ofr SRT was as complete a batsman as anyone could be at the age of 16, his test achievements, for India, cannot be surpassed alone with numbers & his impact as a batsman in ODI's is visible in player like Yuvraj, Sehwag aet al so there again "he's out of this world" in your langauge !

Well said Man. Funny people are giving so much importance to the runs scored in the T20s era , pitches tailormade for batting , bigger bats , all rules favoring batters.

Sachin was just in a league of his own.
 
Sachin didn't use to choke in early 90s.. it's after 99 may be till 2007..

Also do you remember Kohli's recent hundred against NZ in a losing cause.. most of Tendulkar's innings were like that.

Sure, I know Sachin is one hell of an unlucky guy to play in a bad team.

But overall, from what I have seen of Sachin, he wasn't in Kohli's league when it comes to pure temperament.

The kind of shots Sachin would play and pull off was staggering.

Kohli keeps it safe. Plays very few percentage shots.

Plans out like a genius.

That's why I rate Kohli's temperament as a better one.
 
Been watching cricket from the late 90's.

Sachin would play amazing strokes and would give away his wicket unnecessarily. I have watched him for over 12 years to know this.

Kohli doesn't do it.

So you say that I would embarrass myself when you take factual analysis but when you compare Kohli with Sachin, you will bring in intangible stuff like other players and stuff?

I agree that Sachin played with a bunch of lulloos. But he would throw away his wicket a lot of times when he was in sublime form.

Stats won't tell you this. You have to watch the match to see this.

I was talking just about ODI's and not tests.

So don't get tensed and all worked up by bringing everything into picture.

Kohli isn't half the batsman Sachin is in terms of pure batsmanship.
You also gloss over the fact that batting in general has become easier(lots of flat pitches & 400+ scores in LOI) since the 90's & chasing alot easier with the advent of T20, if you don't bring these variables into the equation then you're not doing half the math right, the other part of course is opener vs no.3 (or 4 at times) & there too fatigue plays a huge part & since you haven't seen Kohli bat 50 overs in LOI cricket yet I'm sure you haven't figured out how it's virtually impossible for an opener to finish the game on his own.

I admit I was a little rough with my last post but fatigue plays a huge part in a 100 overs LOI game which is nearly twice the intensity of a test match & while I do like Kohli a lot as a player but he's still not upto the level of SRT in LOI, let alone tests, but I guess he doesn't have to with MSD at the end.
 
Well said Man. Funny people are giving so much importance to the runs scored in the T20s era , pitches tailormade for batting , bigger bats , all rules favoring batters.

Sachin was just in a league of his own.

My main point was in the context of temperament and not pure batsman ship.

The way Kohli plans is a sight to behold.

I give credit where its due.

I am not a die hard fan of Kohli unlike Sachin.
 
Been watching cricket from the late 90's.

Sachin would play amazing strokes and would give away his wicket unnecessarily. I have watched him for over 12 years to know this.

Kohli doesn't do it.

So you say that I would embarrass myself when you take factual analysis but when you compare Kohli with Sachin, you will bring in intangible stuff like other players and stuff?

I agree that Sachin played with a bunch of lulloos. But he would throw away his wicket a lot of times when he was in sublime form.

Stats won't tell you this. You have to watch the match to see this.

I was talking just about ODI's and not tests.

So don't get tensed and all worked up by bringing everything into picture.

Kohli isn't half the batsman Sachin is in terms of pure batsmanship.


Anyone who has watched all the matches since 90s would agree with your assessment. I have. Stats won't tell you this difference.
 
guys seriously!! We had Steyn vs Kohli today!
How will Aamir vs Kohli be better??

are you suggesting Aamir was better than current Steyn?

that is preposterous!!

Read my previous post. I said Kohli treats Steyn like a normal bowler. who is Junaid?

Steyn is ATG. I was talking about junaid. Aamir is better than junaid.:dav
 
Sure, I know Sachin is one hell of an unlucky guy to play in a bad team.

But overall, from what I have seen of Sachin, he wasn't in Kohli's league when it comes to pure temperament.

The kind of shots Sachin would play and pull off was staggering.

Kohli keeps it safe. Plays very few percentage shots.

Plans out like a genius.

That's why I rate Kohli's temperament as a better one.

When you play in a bad team (on the day), most of your good efforts will go in vain and it would look bad.. even in Test matches, people rate Dravid higher than Tendulkar based on keeping his cool till the end.. but the real story is slightly more complicated.

An innings has to be judged both from the start and end points.. end point Kohli has overtaken Tendulkar.. but for the full context of the innings, I think Tendulkar faced tougher conditions.

As I said, your viewing period coincided with Tendulkar choking.
 
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You also gloss over the fact that batting in general has become easier(lots of flat pitches & 400+ scores in LOI) since the 90's & chasing alot easier with the advent of T20, if you don't bring these variables into the equation then you're not doing half the math right, the other part of course is opener vs no.3 (or 4 at times) & there too fatigue plays a huge part & since you haven't seen Kohli bat 50 overs in LOI cricket yet I'm sure you haven't figured out how it's virtually impossible for an opener to finish the game on his own.

I admit I was a little rough with my last post but fatigue plays a huge part in a 100 overs LOI game which is nearly twice the intensity of a test match & while I do like Kohli a lot as a player but he's still not upto the level of SRT in LOI, let alone tests, but I guess he doesn't have to with MSD at the end.

Kohli can't do anything to be born in this era.

I know the standards have fallen.

As IndianWillow pointed out:

The same yardstick can be applied to Bradman and one can say he got 99 average because of lulloo bowlers. Do you honest think he would have had tat average against WI pace quartet?

But why is he rated so high?

Because he was so ahead of his peers.

Same way Kohli looks like he was in a league of his own. Plus the WAY HE PLANS OUT stuff was something I never saw in Sachin.

I will give you an example:

In the Hobart ODI, Sachin and Kohli were playing. Sachin's powers were waning but he looked good in that ODI. What did he do? Try shuffling across to play a shot in the leg side and got LBW. Kohli played a safe game with minimal risks and took India home.

That innings DOES NOT PROVE that Kohli is better than Sachin. But that innings encapsulates the difference in temperament in Sachin and Kohli.

Sachin at his peak could play any shot and pull it off. He pulled it off more often than not in his peaks. Kohli in his peak cannot do that. But he doesn't need to. He plans in a way that is SO SAFE and SO DEMORALIZING for the opposition.

That's why my rating for Kohli as a skill + temperament player is higher.
 
When you play in a bad team (on the day), most of your good efforts will go in vain and it would look bad.. even in Test matches, people rate Dravid higher than Tendulkar based on keeping his cool till the end.. but the real story is slightly more complicated.

An innings has to be judged both from the start and end points.. end point Kohli has overtaken Tendulkar.. but for the full context of the innings, I think Tendulkar faced tougher conditions.

As I said, your viewing period coincided with Tendulkar choking.

No I started watching cricket around the 1997 mark.

Got serious in 1998.

1997-2000, Sachin was still in his peak and I watched most of it.

Skill wise, there is no competition.

But temperament wise, yes Kohli wins.
 
Well, no amount of tareef is enough for Kohli; this guy is a genius in batting. Just love watching him bat. He seems to connect everything, takes singles/doubles and hits fours for fun. Never seems rushed. He is in the category of MSD/Yuvraj/Sachin in LOIs, and I am sure that he will end at the TOP of this list if he continues the way he is, though MSD still has a career left in him and it's too early to say still!

Of course, as a COMPLETE cricketer when bringing tests into the mix, Amla and ABD are the best going around.
 
Kohli can't do anything to be born in this era.

I know the standards have fallen.

As IndianWillow pointed out:

The same yardstick can be applied to Bradman and one can say he got 99 average because of lulloo bowlers. Do you honest think he would have had tat average against WI pace quartet?

But why is he rated so high?

Because he was so ahead of his peers.

Same way Kohli looks like he was in a league of his own. Plus the WAY HE PLANS OUT stuff was something I never saw in Sachin.

I will give you an example:

In the Hobart ODI, Sachin and Kohli were playing. Sachin's powers were waning but he looked good in that ODI. What did he do? Try shuffling across to play a shot in the leg side and got LBW. Kohli played a safe game with minimal risks and took India home.

That innings DOES NOT PROVE that Kohli is better than Sachin. But that innings encapsulates the difference in temperament in Sachin and Kohli.

Sachin at his peak could play any shot and pull it off. He pulled it off more often than not in his peaks. Kohli in his peak cannot do that. But he doesn't need to. He plans in a way that is SO SAFE and SO DEMORALIZING for the opposition.

That's why my rating for Kohli as a skill + temperament player is higher.
And this where I said the likes of UV or MSD have eased the burden off his shoulders, I'll reserve my judgement for the time when these two retire from LOI but will you then bring Kohli not at his peak argument at that time ?
 
No I started watching cricket around the 1997 mark.

Got serious in 1998.

1997-2000, Sachin was still in his peak and I watched most of it.

Skill wise, there is no competition.

But temperament wise, yes Kohli wins.

If you mean temperament in keeping his wicket safe, I agree.

If you mean temperament in better planning of innings, I think it's not so straightforward. I will put it more down to the support at the other end.

Just watch Kohli's last ODI hundred against NZ... and you will get the context of my statement.

Temperament can't be judged in isolation.. a person is forced to play according to the support he is getting from other end.. today Raina brought it down to ease it a bit for Kohli.. and I am not really sure what Kohli's approach would have been if he had to set up that chase in Hobart all alone.
 
No I started watching cricket around the 1997 mark.

Got serious in 1998.

1997-2000, Sachin was still in his peak and I watched most of it.

Skill wise, there is no competition.

But temperament wise, yes Kohli wins.

I'm sure everyone in India compares Kohli to Sachin. The thing is, nostalgia aside, Sachin carried India's batting single-handedly. Remember your QF against SL in 1996? Sachin out = India out. That's what Sachin was for India. Imagine if Kohli or Yuvi or Dhoni had that kind of responsibility.. that the rest of your batting line-up was just a bunch of jokers and you were the only one separating your side from minnows? (of course i'm exaggerating, India had azharuddin/jadeja,etc, no disrespect).

So comparing these two is very pre-mature, but surely Kohli can be compared to Dhoni and Yuvi. Dhoni and Yuvi have won India WT20 & WC2011. Kohli is a better batsmen than both of them, ANYONE can see that. But will he accomplish as much? The Final against SL will be a good place to start. And India are SL-slayers. :P
 
And this where I said the likes of UV or MSD have eased the burden off his shoulders, I'll reserve my judgement for the time when these two retire from LOI but will you bring Kohli not at his peak argument at that time ?

Kohli is now at his peak. Or atleast near his peak.

A peak for a top batsman starts from 25. give or take a few years.

Of course, playing for a better team has its effects but the amount of times Kohli just comes, CONTROLS the game and finishes off is crazy.

When I mentioned about Sachin's temperament, did I ever bring in one argument about his win loss record?

Or did I ever bring an argument about Kohli's win loss record?

I don't. Because I know that's NOT a yardstick to jduge a player.

I have seen both in action and I make my judgements based on that.
 
No I started watching cricket around the 1997 mark.

Got serious in 1998.

1997-2000, Sachin was still in his peak and I watched most of it.

Skill wise, there is no competition.

But temperament wise, yes Kohli wins.

Well I have watched Sachin since he made his debut in 1989 and i will still second sensible-indian-fan
 
But yeah, Kohli has everything on his side at the moment to end up at least statsitically better than Sachin. He will also be able to do one thing Sachin was never good at in the last 10+ yrs of his career which is finishing games (amazing, since he Kohli bats really high at 1-down and still manages to do it). One thing about Kohli also is that once he's set, i'm pretty sure his strike rate is higher than Sachin. After 40~ or so runs Kohli goes on overdrive. On the other hand, Sachin would be on overdrive until 50, and then slow down. All this is basically one of the reasons a lot of Indians in this thread are saying that Kohli is a better finisher.
 
I'm sure everyone in India compares Kohli to Sachin. The thing is, nostalgia aside, Sachin carried India's batting single-handedly. Remember your QF against SL in 1996? Sachin out = India out. That's what Sachin was for India. Imagine if Kohli or Yuvi or Dhoni had that kind of responsibility.. that the rest of your batting line-up was just a bunch of jokers and you were the only one separating your side from minnows? (of course i'm exaggerating, India had azharuddin/jadeja,etc, no disrespect).

So comparing these two is very pre-mature, but surely Kohli can be compared to Dhoni and Yuvi. Dhoni and Yuvi have won India WT20 & WC2011. Kohli is a better batsmen than both of them, ANYONE can see that. But will he accomplish as much? The Final against SL will be a good place to start. And India are SL-slayers. :P

Yes but when we put conditions like that no comparison can ever be possible.

I am in TOTAL AWE of what Sachin did.

Sachin could play shots that Kohli can only dream off. Atleast executing them on a consistent manner.

Yes, Kohli needs to accomplish a lot but the way he has evolved in the last 1 year or so, I think he will go on to retire as a GOAT in ODI's.

Let's see.

Sachin's biggest thing was he could keep up with cricket for 20 freaking years and that's genius level.

Longevity + consistency is why he is regarded as the greatest batsman the world has ever seen (arguably).

The way he changed his game after 2000 and went from an aggressor to accumulator was amazing.
 
Kohli is now at his peak. Or atleast near his peak.

A peak for a top batsman starts from 25. give or take a few years.

Of course, playing for a better team has its effects but the amount of times Kohli just comes, CONTROLS the game and finishes off is crazy.

When I mentioned about Sachin's temperament, did I ever bring in one argument about his win loss record?

Or did I ever bring an argument about Kohli's win loss record?

I don't. Because I know that's NOT a yardstick to jduge a player.

I have seen both in action and I make my judgements based on that.
See tempus' post above, the Chennai chase in 99 & the one in 08 proves my point, likewise Kohli's innings while chasing in the first test in NZ is a prime example why he's no better than SRT in terms of temperament & you can't seriously say that he's brilliant in LOI, while chasing, & not in tests?
 
See tempus' post above, the Chennai chase in 99 & the one in 08 proves my point, likewise Kohli's innings while chasing in the first test in NZ is a prime example why he's no better than SRT in terms of temperament & you can't seriously say that he's brilliant in LOI, while chasing, & not in tests?

Of course Sachin had a good temperament (we are comparing about temperament among good to great batsman in ODI's...not among Afridi and Yusuf Pathan).

Or else how could he have survived for 20 years?

But it wasn't in the league of people like Bevan, Hussey, Dhoni or Kohli. It was his massive skill that allowed him to bulldoze everyone and perform.

Of course, in his 20 year career, there will be some great innings of incredible temperament. In fact, I told my friends that Sachin has turned into someone new when he won us the CB series.

But if look at the % of the games where Sachin exhibited incredible temperament vs Kohli's , it would be a no competition.

As far as Tests is concerned, Kohli is YET to prove himself in Tests.

Everything I said was about ODIs.
 
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Of course Sachin had a good temperament (we are comparing about temperament among good to great batsman in ODI's...not among Afridi and Yusuf Pathan).

Or else how could he have survived for 20 years?

But it wasn't in the league of people like Bevan, Hussey, Dhoni or Kohli. It was his massive skill that allowed him to bulldoze everyone and perform.

Of course, in his 20 year career, there will be some great innings of incredible temperament. In fact, I told my friends that Sachin has turned into someone new when he won us the CB series.

But if look at the % of the games where Sachin exhibited incredible temperament vs Kohli's , it would be a no competition.

As far as Tests is concerned, Kohli is YET to prove himself in Tests.

Everything I said was about ODIs.

Bevan, Dhoni or Hussey can't be compared with him.. they didn't have to set up chases or build up innings every time from the scratch.

As I said earlier, the temperament is dependent on the kind of support you are getting at the other end.
 
Of course Sachin had a good temperament (we are comparing about temperament among good to great batsman in ODI's...not among Afridi and Yusuf Pathan).

Or else how could he have survived for 20 years?

But it wasn't in the league of people like Bevan, Hussey, Dhoni or Kohli. It was his massive skill that allowed him to bulldoze everyone and perform.

Of course, in his 20 year career, there will be some great innings of incredible temperament. In fact, I told my friends that Sachin has turned into someone new when he won us the CB series.

But if look at the % of the games where Sachin exhibited incredible temperament vs Kohli's , it would be a no competition.

As far as Tests is concerned, Kohli is YET to prove himself in Tests.

Everything I said was about ODIs.
Like I said I reserve my judgement till the time MSD & UV retire from LOI & FYI the record we set in 05/06 for chasing 17 or 19 ODI's in a row was because of these two & some of those chases in Pak especially were breathtaking, this is why I say without two of'em at the end Kohli's effectiveness would be cut in half in LOI.
 
I am not a fan of any particular player.

Sorry i don't but this '' i am a neutral not a fan of anyone..'' argument.Thats a cawardice stand to take..and its not true.This very thread shows that u are a kohli fan,and u should show that courage to tell as it is..
 
Like I said I reserve my judgement till the time MSD & UV retire from LOI & FYI the record we set in 05/06 for chasing 17 or 19 ODI's in a row was because of these two & some of those chases in Pak especially were breathtaking, this is why I say without two of'em at the end Kohli's effectiveness would be cut in half in LOI.

Sure it may be.

Kohli's effectiveness cut in half or India losing the match has NO BEARING on the topic:

Who has better temperament - Kohli or Sachin?

I didn't take stats to make judgements now and I won't take stats then.

I will watch the match and decide.

If Kohli exhibits crappy temperament, I will say so.

My opinion - As an opposition, you would fear a Kohli more than Sachin.

Bowlers would fear Sachin more (for obvious reasons).

At THE TIME of batting, Sachin would be PRETTY SCARY (more scary than Kohli) but in overall match context, its Kohli you will be worried about (as a captain).

As a fan, I used to dread Michael Bevan more than a Ponting or Gilly.

When Gilly or Ponting were batting, I would be scared but when Bevan was there, I would know that even when he was knocking around and taking harmless singles, he was actually slowly taking the game away from me.
 
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Bevan, Dhoni or Hussey can't be compared with him.. they didn't have to set up chases or build up innings every time from the scratch.As I said earlier, the temperament is dependent on the kind of support you are getting at the other end.[[/B]

Strongly disagree.

Temperament can be gauged in any situation.

Results is what is dependent on others.
 
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Before you compare the effectiveness of Sachin vs Kohli.. bear in mind that Kohli has had the fortune of having other strong mates in his team... a luxury that Sachin didn't really for in LOI. I mean look at Rohit, Dhawan, Rahane, Yuvraj, Dhoni and Raina!.. most often at least 3 of these guys click and are devastating.

Dravid was not really good when it came to LOI.. he was an over-estimated player.

Sachin by far is still the greatest.. and yes.. Kohli is more effective than Sachin partly because Kohli's stronger mates shore up and do their jobs to a certain extent very well... which was absent in Sachin's case.
 
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Sorry i don't but this '' i am a neutral not a fan of anyone..'' argument.Thats a cawardice stand to take..and its not true.This very thread shows that u are a kohli fan,and u should show that courage to tell as it is..

Nonsense.

Appreciating someone/something doesn't make me a fan.
 
See tempus' post above, the Chennai chase in 99 & the one in 08 proves my point, likewise Kohli's innings while chasing in the first test in NZ is a prime example why he's no better than SRT in terms of temperament & you can't seriously say that he's brilliant in LOI, while chasing, & not in tests?

IMO Kohli is better than Tendulkar in ODI's as far playing risk free cricket is concerned. But your point about match situation is very interesting. In last ODI series vs New Zealand ,Kohli got out two times in 80's while chasing when required run rate crossed 10 per over with 15 overs to spare. That ODI unit was very similar to India's weak side in 90's when Tendulkar needed to play high risk cricket because rest of the team was very poor. Match situation & strenght of other batsmen do play important role in temperament while chasing.
 
Been watching cricket from the late 90's.

Sachin would play amazing strokes and would give away his wicket unnecessarily. I have watched him for over 12 years to know this.

Kohli doesn't do it.

So you say that I would embarrass myself when you take factual analysis but when you compare Kohli with Sachin, you will bring in intangible stuff like other players and stuff?

I agree that Sachin played with a bunch of lulloos. But he would throw away his wicket a lot of times when he was in sublime form.

Stats won't tell you this. You have to watch the match to see this.

I was talking just about ODI's and not tests.

So don't get tensed and all worked up by bringing everything into picture.

Kohli isn't half the batsman Sachin is in terms of pure batsmanship.

Absolutely. Sachin was twice the batsman Kohli ever will be, but Kohli has some qualities that Sachin did not have. I have rarely seen Sachin play in such a calculated manner as Kohli. It appears that Kohli plans out every ball of the chase - there is no hurry burry, no tension, no panic. I cannot believe that he played out only 3 dot balls today - the amount of skill and presence of mind displayed by Kohli is mind boggling. Sachin never kept it never so simple, he thought too much and complicated things too much, and this also affected him while he took over captaincy.
 
ABD is still better player than Kohli in limited overs cricket IMO while both of them are better test players than Kohli.
 
IMO Kohli is better than Tendulkar in ODI's as far playing risk free cricket is concerned. But your point about match situation is very interesting. In last ODI series vs New Zealand ,Kohli got out two times in 80's while chasing when required run rate crossed 10 per over with 15 overs to spare. That ODI unit was very similar to India's weak side in 90's when Tendulkar needed to play high risk cricket because rest of the team was very poor. Match situation & strenght of other batsmen do play important role in temperament while chasing.
Yes that's the point which some of the other posters are ignoring, SRT of the late 90's was perhaps the best player to have played LOI, I doubt anyone can challenge that except based on certain/selective stats, but he was a much bigger match winner, especially in tests. In the noughties(more so) because he could fall back on the likes of Sehwag, Gambhir, Ganguly, Laxman, Dravid, UV, MAD in different forms of the game, hence he started accumulating, a luxury Kohli has had virtually throughout his career.

Now what we saw in SA or NZ shows why SRT was such a great because he could single handedly bring us close to an impossible win, in tough games, but he lacked the backing of a UV or MSD hence we lost those games. If the other poster thinks that results don't matter than he;s joking, in an absurd way mind you, because had Ind lost these games in which Kohli has performed then he'd be labeled as SRT v2.0 for not winning us games ! He's playing it both ways I guess ~ Kohli is better because he closes games(yay India wins but according to him it doesn;t matter!) & it doesn't matter whether we have UV/MSD at the end because SRT was a better batsman so he ought to have chased those improbable totals down just on his own, even though he was the opener but that doesn't matter either !
 
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Before you compare the effectiveness of Sachin vs Kohli.. bear in mind that Kohli has had the fortune of having other strong mates in his team... a luxury that Sachin didn't really for in LOI. I mean look at Rohit, Dhawan, Rahane, Yuvraj, Dhoni and Raina!.. most often at least 3 of these guys click and are devastating.

Dravid was not really good when it came to LOI.. he was an over-estimated player.

Sachin by far is still the greatest.. and yes.. Kohli is more effective than Sachin partly because Kohli's stronger mates shore up and do their jobs to a certain extent very well... which was absent in Sachin's case.

Only for a few years. Till 1994 Sachin himself was not a strong ODI player. He became a strong player when he was promoted up the order - he scored his first 100 in his 79th ODI only. But Tendu initially did have good support from Azhar, Sidhu, Jadeja and later from Ganguly and Dravid. Most of the time India did have decent batting in ODIs especially at home, it was our bowlers who blew out matches. India depended heavily on Tendulkar between 1995 to 1999, apart from this period Sachin remained one of the most important players but not an one man army.
 
Only for a few years. Till 1994 Sachin himself was not a strong ODI player. He became a strong player when he was promoted up the order - he scored his first 100 in his 79th ODI only. But Tendu initially did have good support from Azhar, Sidhu, Jadeja and later from Ganguly and Dravid. Most of the time India did have decent batting in ODIs especially at home, it was our bowlers who blew out matches. India depended heavily on Tendulkar between 1995 to 1999, apart from this period Sachin remained one of the most important players but not an one man army.
Yes not a one man army but pretty much a lone wolf, Azhar & Ajay were finished by 2K(match fixing) & Ganguly/Dravid never finished those improbable games either so tell me who can you compare UV or MSD to from that era ? AFAIK these two combined have won more matches for IND, while chasing, than Kohli has & so your argument in invalid because firstly an opener's job is not to finish games, you can say otherwise but then we'd be going round in circles, secondly we were poor chasers back in the day because Azhar/Ajay et al couldn't score quick runs especially when we needed them !
 
Kohli has improved a lot in last couple of years. 23 year old Tendulkar was India's best ODI batsman in 96 WC so was 38 year old Tendulkar in 2011, When Kohli himself was 22-23 year old.
 
Kohli is the GREATEST LOI(T20's + ODI's), Dhoni is probably a bit greater if it is just ODI's or is Kohli THE greatest there as well?....Too close

AB DEVILLIERS is GREAT in Both T20's and ODI's, He will deliver in a Knockout sooner than later. Too talented to not do it.

Amla is right now Above Average to Good in T20's, GREAT in ODI's but has not delivered in the BIG MATCHES. I hope he does someday. it will be nice to see the Mighty Hash pull off a knock out match:)
 
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Yes that's the point which some of the other posters are ignoring, SRT of the late 90's was perhaps the best player to have played LOI, I doubt anyone can challenge that except based on certain/selective stats, but he was a much bigger match winner, especially in tests. In the noughties(more so) because he could fall back on the likes of Sehwag, Gambhir, Ganguly, Laxman, Dravid, UV, MAD in different forms of the game, hence he started accumulating, a luxury Kohli has had virtually throughout his career.

Now what we saw in SA or NZ shows why SRT was such a great because he could single handedly bring us close to an impossible win, in tough games, but he lacked the backing of a UV or MSD hence we lost those games. If the other poster thinks that results don't matter than he;s joking, in an absurd way mind you, because had Ind lost these games in which Kohli has performed then he'd be labeled as SRT v2.0 for not winning us games ! He's playing it both ways I guess ~ Kohli is better because he closes games(yay India wins but according to him it doesn;t matter!) & it doesn't matter whether we have UV/MSD at the end because SRT was a better batsman so he ought to have chased those improbable totals down just on his own, even though he was the opener but that doesn't matter either !

If you are referring to me, then let me tell you that you have got TOTALLY CONFUSED with all my points and think that I may be going for both ways.

Haha. Its not true.

Read this post patiently.

First before I talk about my view, let me tell you a fact. I think its important to know.

I have defended Sachin when many people used to blindly hate him and accused him of all stuff. I can pull up stats, do extensive analysis and bring in all the points that you bring in. Its too easy for me. I can speak for both FOR and AGAINST the discussion we are having now. I can do it all day long because I have defended Sachin so many times in the past against blind hate.

But at the end, I would know what the truth is. And for that to emerge, we need to first see what the concept of temperament means in cricket.

Temperament doesn't mean scoring runs.

It doesn't mean winning matches.

Temperament LEADS to those things (scoring runs, winning matches) but is NOT DEFINED by those things.

Let me give you an example.

If a player gets out to a PEACH OF A DELIVERY in 10 games scoring less than 20, would you call that lack of temperament? Absolutely not. I would maybe call that as a lack of concentration or skill to block the peach of a delivery to remain not out but NOT temperament.

So what does temperament mean?

It means the ability to ANALYZE the match on the go.

It means the ability to know WHAT to do and WHEN to do that.

It means the ability to understand what your team's strength and weakness is and what your opponent's strength and weakness is.

Before I move on, please this question:

1. How many people BLAMED Sachin when he got out to 142 in Sharjah in the game before the finals?

2. How many people BLAMED Dravid for slogging (and getting out) in the England test match when he was stranded with a tailender?

3. How many people BLAMED Sachin for not finishing the game in the 1999 Chennai Test?

4. How many people BLAMED Kohli when he was in full flow and got out at 124 in the recent NZ series?

Answer: None.

You know why?

Because all of the above examples does not show lack of temperament even though India didn't win. When you are the ONLY person there or CIRCUMSTANCES forces you to play in a certain way and you get out, no one blames you. Instead they praise you. The concept of temperament doesn't come here.

Where it comes is when you are in form or in decent flow and you choose

1. A wrong shot to play
2. A wrong bowler to attack in the rush of a moment

Temperament is questioned when you are in CONTROL and you make a mistake.

Its not questioned when you are FORCED to do things in a certain way.

Now its too easy to say

1. Sachin played with a lulloo team
2. Sachin destroyed better bowlers in 90's
3. Sachin had the best average in 90's
4. Sachin didn't have finishers to finish the game

All that is true.

But all that would reflect in the final match result more than temperament. Its easy to club it into the argument of temperament which is not true at all. Sachin had lost his wicket due to his temperament many times. Sure you can use his stats, and thrashing of better bowlers to make it look like it hasn't but whenever he got out by being helpless, NO ONE QUESTIONED him.

Its when he was in control and he got out to an unnecessary shot or poor strategy, he was questioned.

One recent example is Hobart.

But I will give you one more example where Sachin's heroics won his team the game.

Take the WC 2003 encounter against Pakistan.

It was one of Sachin's greatest ODI innings.

I am NOT going to talk about his dismissal as he was tiring then and it was a PEACH of a delivery.

I am going to talk about something else. When Sachin had destroyed Akhtar by taking calculated risks (the shots were mostly risk free if you think about it), things were going smoothly. Suddenly 2 wickets fell. Things got dull and Wasim and co were exerting a bit of pressure.

What did Sachin do?

He tried to smash Wasim over mid off. Luckily Razzaq was standing very much inside the circle so he dropped the catch. Else it was a simple catch and who knows - we may have lost the match. Now I don't remember the exact details but I remember that things got dull, every shot wasn't exactly working perfectly (in that dull period) and Sachin tried this release shot.

If it didn't work, India could have lost the match.

This is WHERE temperament comes into play.

I admit he exhibited incredible temperament that game but that momentarily lapse could have gone either way.

If I were to dig up all Sachin innings, there would be quite a few crucial innings where I can show you him losing his wicket due to a temperament issue. How do I know? I have watched the match. I may not remember the details or the stats but the opinion that Sachin would lose his wicket in certain unnecessary situations remains. Of course, he has played many good flawless knocks too but you get my idea, right?

Also another other area where Sachin's temperament gets questioned:

Nervous 90's (the amount of times Sachin has shifted the entire momentum of the innings in his 90's is a LOT...sure he has scored centuries smoothly in many innings too but many other innings his 90's was an issue - recent eg - match against Bangladesh Asia Cup (100th 100) and against SA (WC 2011))

The amount of times Sachin has got out in the 90's also points to this fact.

Now take Kohli for example:

When he was playing against Bangladesh in Asia Cup, we had lost 2 wickets. The lower order had no Dhoni. Rahane couldn't rotate strike. Watch how he played and closed out the game coming in at great pressure. It was one his best innings that won't be rated because it was against Bangladesh.

The same Kohli got out against Pakistan cheaply and India paid the price but NO ONE blamed Kohli for that.

You know why? Cos losing the match or losing your wicket doesn't get your temperament questioned.

Its the HOW part that gets it questioned.
 
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Its important NOT to confused Sachin's ability to analyze the strength and weakness of a bowler, analyze what shots work best against each bowler as temperament.

It may be a part of temperament (for some) but its sure not temperament as a whole.

Those are cricketing skills which Sachin was a master at.

A total master.

He was one of THE MOST intelligent batsman and a great great analyzer of bowlers.
 
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OP is delusional, Kohli played a brilliant knock no doubt. Amla got out to a beauty and AB out trying to play a big shot..

Kohli will surpass Tendulkar in ODI's, unsure about Tests he doesn't seem to have the hunger to go big after scoring a hundred like Pujara.
 
I am NOT going to talk about his dismissal as he was tiring then and it was a PEACH of a delivery.

I am going to talk about something else. When Sachin had destroyed Akhtar by taking calculated risks (the shots were mostly risk free if you think about it), things were going smoothly. Suddenly 2 wickets fell. Things got dull and Wasim and co were exerting a bit of pressure.

What did Sachin do?

He tried to smash Wasim over mid off. Luckily Razzaq was standing very much inside the circle so he dropped the catch. Else it was a simple catch and who knows - we may have lost the match. Now I don't remember the exact details but I remember that things got dull, every shot wasn't exactly working perfectly (in that dull period) and Sachin tried this release shot.

If it didn't work, India could have lost the match.

This is WHERE temperament comes into play.

You have raised good point about shot selection while constructing or chasing in an ODI inning but I won't call it as only simple case of temperament. Tendulkar was an ODI opener in 2003 WC where basic role of an opener was taking advantage of fielding restrictions in first 15 overs so that shot was definately on.Now if Tendulkar was playing at one down or two down batting position then maybe he might have played risk free leg side inning like Kohli often plays . Maybe I am wrong in this assumption but 2004 Sydney test double hundread without playing single cover drive is fair enough indication to me that Tendulkar was capable to play as per situation & batting position & format. Here Tendulkar -Test batsman who used to bat at no 4 position & ODI opener were expected to play differently.Kohli needs to work on his temperament in Test level though. Also I would like see how will Kohli approach an ODI inning while opening with 15 over field restriction & whether that will affect his shot selection.
 
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You have raised good point about shot selection while constructing or chasing in an ODI inning but I won't call it as only simple case of temperament. Tendulkar was an ODI opener in 2003 WC where basic role of an opener was taking advantage of fielding restrictions in first 15 overs so that shot was definately on.Now if Tendulkar was playing at one down or two down batting position then maybe he might have played risk free leg side inning like Kohli often plays . Maybe I am wrong in this assumption but 2004 Sydney test double hundread without playing single cover drive is fair enough indication to me that Tendulkar was capable to play as per situation & batting position & format. Here Tendulkar -Test batsman who used to bat at no 4 position & ODI opener were expected to play differently.Kohli needs to work on his temperament in Test level though. Also I would like see how will Kohli approach an ODI inning while opening with 15 over field restriction & whether that will affect his shot selection.

Want to make a few points.

1. Never said Sachin's temnperament is bad. Without that he couldn't have survived 20 years.

2. The comparison was about ODI's only. In Tests, there is NO competition between Kohli and Sachin. Kohli is yet to attain the true temperament of a test match player. Throws away his wicket after reaching century. I think he has never crossed 120 in tests. In ODI's, he doesn't have the same problem at all. Shows how different tests and ODIs are.

3. Sachin's Sydney was an INCREDIBLE exhibition of self control and temperament. But Sachin many times didn't exert incredible self control. He could play dream shots and would play one too many.

4. Yes batting order may impact the way you play the game. But if you bat in a place where you feel COMFORTABLE, then your temperament can be judged with the way you play the game. In that regard, Hussey, Bevan, Dhoni, Kohli all have a better temperament than Sachin in ODIs. Sachin was never comfortable playing in the middle order in ODI's. I would not judge him based on that. Similarly if Kohli is never comfortable playing as opener, I would NOT use his opener performance to judge his temperament. Its like judging VVS when he opened in tests.

5. Of courses, there are obvious cases like Rohit Sharma whose temperament can be judged irrespective of where he is playing. As opener he has performed better but his temperament issues are visible whether he is playing in the the middle order or as a opener. His low temperament level gives it away.
 
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Yes not a one man army but pretty much a lone wolf, Azhar & Ajay were finished by 2K(match fixing) & Ganguly/Dravid never finished those improbable games either so tell me who can you compare UV or MSD to from that era ? AFAIK these two combined have won more matches for IND, while chasing, than Kohli has & so your argument in invalid because firstly an opener's job is not to finish games, you can say otherwise but then we'd be going round in circles, secondly we were poor chasers back in the day because Azhar/Ajay et al couldn't score quick runs especially when we needed them !

They could. Azhar and Jadeja were remarkable ODI players. But unlike Sachin, both of them served other masters at times. This is glaringly exemplified in the match against Sri Lanka in 1997, when Sachin got out early, both Azhar and Jadeja had a partnership of 223 runs and got close to the target and then threw the match away. That India lost inspite of Azhar remaining not out throws light on why India really lost the game.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64557.html
 
Kohli showing de Villiers and Amla who the boss is.

Kohli >>>AB DeVilliers
In limited overs and will very soon take over from him in the Test cricket as well.
 
Kohli showing de Villiers and Amla who the boss is.

guys seriously!! We had Steyn vs Kohli today!
How will Aamir vs Kohli be better??

are you suggesting Aamir was better than current Steyn?

that is preposterous!!


Amir is a better talent than Steyn. Had he been playing now he wud have been the best bowler in the world.
 
Kohli is a good player but not good as Sachin, Lara & Ponting were.

bcz the quality of bowlers particularly fast bowlers in nowadays cricket is no way near to those bowlers faced by Sachin, Lara & Ponting.

this period would be remind as the worst period of fast bowlers
 
Kohli showing de Villiers and Amla who the boss is.

Why criticise ABD ? ABD is the best. In TESTS+oDIS+t20S, ABD is untouchable.


In T20I cricket AB is not impressive. U cant compare Kohli and AB in T20I cricket yet. Kohli is way ahead. In ODIs Kohli >> AB while in Test cricket AB is ahead. Period.
 
This kid really is something,,,,, when one legend retires another batting legend takes his place for India.......... Yeahh def Lack of talent in India as my Boi Mobashir was saying earlier......... :70:
 
Now the only player to avg40+ in all forms of the game. Enough said.
 
Why do people do this? Why can't we just enjoy cricket for what it is a sport? Mamoon for me needs to see a shrink. You enjoy the attention by creating inflammatory posts? As for this kohli Ab thread of yours, I say this is childish. Their both great cricketers.
 
Amla and de Villiers are not great, they are very good.
 
Kohli is not even half as good as either Amla or ABCD in tests , thats the format for which a batsman is rated the most.
 
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What a chase, the guy is out of this world.

I rate Gambhir/Dhoni's wc 2011 knock much better than this..TBH this knock of Kohlis overrated..For me Raina's knock was the real deal..It could have gone either way until that littile innings. Kohlis was a good knock,but it was Raina who gave even kohli that confidence to cut loose...yes he finished it beautifully but on the platform built by Rohit and Raina...It makes me sad that nobody gives any credit for these two players...
 
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