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Virat Kohli vs Sachin Tendulkar in ODIs - Who is the best?

TEndulkar had 62 MOM and 16 MOS awards in ODIs; Kohli has 22 MOM and 3 MOS as of now!

Going by these numbers alone, Sachin had more impact for the Indian team than Virat!
More to say that Virat has far better teammates than Sachin had!
 
Lol Sachin is the greatest batsmen I have ever seen, you are the one who calls him ovverated now your using him to make Kohli look like a less of a player.

I am not speaking of any hypothetical scenarios, ask any Indian and they'll say Virat is the better chase and if he dominates a World Cup and maintains his current LO record of course hell surpass Sachin. Sachin never scored 4 centuries in a 4 test series vs Australia. Kohli has done special things and so has Sachin. The overhyping is all in your head because you don't rate Kohli.

Sachin would easily be averaging 50 in this era. You call Sachin ovverated anyway so stop acting like your a fan of his :))) :))).

Oh I wouldn't need to use Sachin for anything, his performances speak for themselves but what you have proven is that you have created this false sense of greatness when it comes to Virat Kohli in your mind which is purely based on hypothetical scenario's and what if's rather then facts, if Virat Kohli dominates a World Cup, If Virat Kohli proves himself when met with testing conditions and quality bowlers; it seems to me you overly hype him and get defensive because you believe he is immune to criticism being his beloved fan :yk3
 
Kohli against Aus in Aus (no sri lanka)- avg 43.27

Tendulkar against Aus in Aus- avg 30.83

Kohli against SAF in SAF- avg 37.33

Tendulkar against SAF in SAF- avg 25. 13

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Who's mediocre again?

Comparing avgs. of 90s and avgs of players of today in ODI is oxymoronic at best. Compare the relative impact of these two players on their team. How valuable was Sachin compared to Virat Kohli in the Indian team. Sachin beats Virat Kohli hands down in that aspect.
 
Comparing avgs. of 90s and avgs of players of today in ODI is oxymoronic at best. Compare the relative impact of these two players on their team. How valuable was Sachin compared to Virat Kohli in the Indian team. Sachin beats Virat Kohli hands down in that aspect.

LMAO now the era discussion comes. Fine adjust the bowling average for both eras and I guarantee you Kohli will still have better average most places except England.
 
LMAO now the era discussion comes. Fine adjust the bowling average for both eras and I guarantee you Kohli will still have better average most places except England.

I posted this in the wrong thread :P

People simply ignore the fact that there is a huge difference in the teammates the two players had.
Kohli's centuries in chases and support he got:
1. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/430889.html
Gambhir 150 (GAmbhir gifted his MOM to Kohli)

2.http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/434263.html
SOLO


3. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/464529.html
Yuvraj, Raina held the fort

4. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/521219.html
Gambhir 84

5. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/536930.html
Rohit 90

6. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518966.html
had support, but this was pure magic innings by Kohli

7.http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/535798.html
Kohli masterclass against Pakistan.

8.http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/564784.html
Kohli alone

9. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/643665.html
low scoring game, Kohli magic again

10. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/647251.html
Rohit Sharma 141, Kohli 100, Dhawan 95

11.http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/647259.html
Dhawan 100

12. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html
India lost, first 100 in chase as a loss

13. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/710293.html
Rahane 73
14.http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/792297.html
Kohli alone


15.http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...h/1030223.html
Dhoni 80

16. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...h/1034819.html
K Jadhav 120

I seem to have missed one game, but out of the 16 I have listed (15 wins) in 8 games atleast Kohli had awesome support at the other end or played second fiddle to the other guy!

Sachin never had this luxury: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...ch/416240.html
one of the greatest innings in a chase I have seen. -

See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-chaser-in-history/page8#sthash.RBSWBTF1.dpuf
 
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Comparing avgs. of 90s and avgs of players of today in ODI is oxymoronic at best. Compare the relative impact of these two players on their team. How valuable was Sachin compared to Virat Kohli in the Indian team. Sachin beats Virat Kohli hands down in that aspect.

What impact did he have on the Indian team when he was averaging under 30 against Australia and South Africa, away? A negative impact I'm sure.
 
Oh I wouldn't need to use Sachin for anything, his performances speak for themselves but what you have proven is that you have created this false sense of greatness when it comes to Virat Kohli in your mind which is purely based on hypothetical scenario's and what if's rather then facts, if Virat Kohli dominates a World Cup, If Virat Kohli proves himself when met with testing conditions and quality bowlers; it seems to me you overly hype him and get defensive because you believe he is immune to criticism being his beloved fan :yk3


If you want to criticise him fine, but when you make points like he only scores flat pitches and vs inferior bowlers than of course I'll defend him.

Statistically he's one of the greatest LO chases already, or is that hypothetical as well ? :mv
 
If you want to criticise him fine, but when you make points like he only scores flat pitches and vs inferior bowlers than of course I'll defend him.

Statistically he's one of the greatest LO chases already, or is that hypothetical as well ? :mv

Well you can defend him but it doesn't make it any less true :yk he's a great chaser but unfortunately statistics are not the only metric which is used to determine undisputed greatness
 
What impact did he have on the Indian team when he was averaging under 30 against Australia and South Africa, away? A negative impact I'm sure.

If he was avg. that low, I can just imagine what the rest of the team was avging in that time.

Simply compare the MOM and MOS between the two, that should be an easy enough number to gauge the impact and value of the two players in the team.

Player (Matches/MOM/MOS)
Sachin 463/66/ 16
Virat 177/22/3

India's winrate has spiked in recent times, but in those ****** times, it was Sachin who always held the fort and rest were just falling like 9 pins.

Sachin had far superior MOM/MOS ratio per game than any player in history of ODIs. that should simply settle the case in favor of Sachin.
 
Tendulkar is king of consistency. Absolutely no question about that. It is very rare you play on unplayable pitches or in unplayable conditions in a ODI. All the wickets in 2003 world cup were true wickets. Only one that i recall was 2002 tour of India to NZ where it was very hard to survive let alone make runs. Only Sehwag made 2 centuries. Don't think anyone else made even a 50 from either side. On true wickets Sehwag, Kohli, Tendulkar can all do same kind of damage against any bowling. Although Sachin had some issues with mystery bowling in the later part of his career, Kohli was master against mystery bowlers.
 
Well you can defend him but it doesn't make it any less true :yk he's a great chaser but unfortunately statistics are not the only metric which is used to determine undisputed greatness

Lol so we can't judge him off stats, he's overrated in your opinion because he scores on flat pitches and faces inferior bowlers. So what the hell are we judging him off ? So basically no matter what he does you won't rate him.
 
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Lol so we can't judge him off stats, he's overrated in your opinion because he scores on flat pitches and faces inferior bowlers. So what the hell are we judging him off ? So basically no matter what he does you won't rate him.

Wrong, he's got a valid point which simply exposes you sir. What he is saying is that Kohli hasn't yet proved anything vs good bowlers and/or on good pitches. Everything you are saying is hypothetical. If you look above, you will see that I listed quite a few SEREIS', not matches, where Kohli failed because the conditions were even slightly testing with some decent bowlers. Also he admits that Kohli is probably the greatest chaser ever whereby there is little doubt.

Kohli cannot be compared against people like Viv and Sachin simply because he hasn't played vs opposition on their level and whenever he has come across some decent opposition in terms of bowlers and/or sporting wickets, he's been unconvincing.

I wouldn't be surprised if you don't rate Bradman because he was the undisputed king in a 'weak' era but Kohli is some sort of deity because he's the best in the world(that to arguable since AB has a clear case too)

Please stop bandwagoning.
 
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Lol so we can't judge him off stats, he's overrated because he scores on flat pitches and faces inferior bowlers. So what the hell are we judging him off ?

Scoring on flat pitches is welcomed it's a brilliant skill to have but what stands out are performances when you overcome testing conditions, difficult bowlers and perform in a tournament such as the ODI World Cup, with it being the modern era he will mostly be fed phattas but in the moments where it isn't the case then he needs to stand up e.g Ind/Pak series in 2012 where he struggled, he'd have to deal with the likes of Starc, Rabada, Mustafizur and Tahir etc with relative ease and not just on the flat pitches. These are simple facts which are beyond some people :mv so they resort to stats and take them literally without looking at numbers with a bit of context
 
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Lol so we can't judge him off stats, he's overrated in your opinion because he scores on flat pitches and faces inferior bowlers. So what the hell are we judging him off ? So basically no matter what he does you won't rate him.

Maybe start with scoring some centuries against Australia, England and South Africa away, and winning India some games against these countries.
 
What impact did he have on the Indian team when he was averaging under 30 against Australia and South Africa, away? A negative impact I'm sure.

1.JPG

India has hardly won based on this very cherry picking of stats

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Will somebody draw out Kohli stats in England again!!
Such selective stats are always always misleading.
 
Maybe start with scoring some centuries against Australia, England and South Africa away, and winning India some games against these countries.

Scored centuries vs Australia. India have played 2 or 3 series in England in Odis since Kohli started, not sure on his record in South Africa.

Lol even if he scored in these countries you'll find another blemish
 
Scoring on flat pitches is welcomed it's a brilliant skill to have but what stands out are performances when you overcome testing conditions, difficult bowlers and perform in a tournament such as the ODI World Cup, with it being the modern era he will mostly be fed phattas but in the moments where it isn't the case then he needs to stand up e.g Ind/Pak series in 2012 where he struggled, he'd have to deal with the likes of Starc, Rabada, Mustafizur and Tahir etc with relative ease and not just on the flat pitches. These are simple facts which are beyond small minded people who can't look beyond their fandom :mv so they resort to stats and take them literally without looking at numbers with a bit of context

He's hardly played against rabada, Starc, etc. Let's see when he actually plays them. Lol Kohli can't control the pitches, bowlers, all he can do is his job.

Yes I am a fan of his, you are clearly just some biased hater of his. No matter what he does you won't rate him anyway so no use in debating with you.
 
He's hardly played against rabada, Starc, etc. Let's see when he actually plays them. Lol Kohli can't control the pitches, bowlers, all he can do is his job.

Yes I am a fan of his, you are clearly just some biased hater of his. No matter what he does you won't rate him anyway so no use in debating with you.

Not really, my standards are certainly higher then yours but am not a hater I think you just can't accept any criticism being a huge fan of Virat so resort to low grade garbage when no one agrees with incoherent arguments, Kohli can only do what he is faced with but am not sure why you repeatedly overlook the point that when he is met with difficult circumstances he has to perform in them to be considered a great until then I will not hype him like you I'd judge him a bit more objectively
 
Scored centuries vs Australia. India have played 2 or 3 series in England in Odis since Kohli started, not sure on his record in South Africa.

Lol even if he scored in these countries you'll find another blemish

Two centuries, both in losses and both came on some really flat tracks when Starc wasn't playing. Two or three series is a big sample size, he's played 30 matches in total in these three countries against the respective home attacks. His record in South Africa is quite poor.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

As for your last line: Lol even if he keeps failing in these conditions, you'll keep fanboying over him.
 
Tendulkar did it for 20 years, which in itself is breathtaking. However, IMO Kohli is more gifted. If he can maintain his greatness for as long as, or nearly as long as Tendulkar, he will eclipse Tendulkar for sure. But, it remains to be seen if that will happen.
 
Even if Kohli scored against Starc,Rabada,Hazelwood,etc. The next excuse would be the pitches are flat. He scores 4 centuries in Australia in 4 games and people say the pitches are flat yet if he didn't score than the same people would call him rubbish, etc.

Most Odi pitches are flat anyway, an average of 43in Australia, 58 in NZ, and 37 in South Africa isn't exactly awful. In England his record is very poor but he did play a key innings in the icc champions trophy final in England.
 
Two centuries, both in losses and both came on some really flat tracks when Starc wasn't playing. Two or three series is a big sample size, he's played 30 matches in total in these three countries against the respective home attacks. His record in South Africa is quite poor.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

As for your last line: Lol even if he keeps failing in these conditions, you'll keep fanboying over him.

It's a poor record but an average of 43 in Australia and an average of 58 in NZ isn't bad now is it? India needs to play more LO games in England and South Africa for him to improve his record. He's a better player now so don't expect him to be as bad.



Just like you fan boy over Amla and Younis. Least I am man enough to admit Virat has failed in South Africa and England you'll carrying on championing Amla no matter what weakness he has.
 
It's a poor record but an average of 43 in Australia and an average of 58 in NZ isn't bad now is it? India needs to play more LO games in England and South Africa for him to improve his record. He's a better player now so don't expect him to be as bad.



Just like you fan boy over Amla and Younis. Least I am man enough to admit Virat has failed in South Africa and England you'll carrying on championing Amla no matter what weakness he has.

Yes, he's done well against New Zealand but no one has an issue with his stats against New Zealand. If you consider that he's only really done well against Australia in the series where Starc wasn't playing, it is a pretty poor record.

Not really. I have no problems acknowledging valid criticism for any player and have done so in the past.
 
People complaining Kohli having low average outside Asia? Is this a joke? Has anybody checked tendulkar's average outside Asia? Kohli needs to prove himself against Starc now? Tendulkar was Mcgrath's bunny his whole life, did he prove anything? Kohli's overseas stats are quite better than Tendulkar's and only poor in England.

By poor, I mean it's just 32 which is equal to Tendulkar's oh so great stats against Aus in Aus. I feel people are creating false memories of Tendulkar being good everywhere in ODIs. Yeah Kohli is soo bad in England smh
 
It is a bit comical to hype stats in England. As far as i can remember England was one of the worst ODI side for a very very long time. Only now after decades are looking a decent unit.
 
Yes, he's done well against New Zealand but no one has an issue with his stats against New Zealand. If you consider that he's only really done well against Australia in the series where Starc wasn't playing, it is a pretty poor record.

Not really. I have no problems acknowledging valid criticism for any player and have done so in the past.

How is that Kohlis fault that Starc was injured? If he didn't score you would beat him with a stick over it LOL stop shifting the goal posts.

Kohlis record in England and South Africa is poor, but his record in other countries home and away is good.. Of other teams rest there bowlers or they are injured it's no fault of Kohlis.
 
People complaining Kohli having low average outside Asia? Is this a joke? Has anybody checked tendulkar's average outside Asia? Kohli needs to prove himself against Starc now? Tendulkar was Mcgrath's bunny his whole life, did he prove anything? Kohli's overseas stats are quite better than Tendulkar's and only poor in England.

By poor, I mean it's just 32 which is equal to Tendulkar's oh so great stats against Aus in Aus. I feel people are creating false memories of Tendulkar being good everywhere in ODIs. Yeah Kohli is soo bad in England smh

And yet Tendulkar THRASHED McGrath out of the attack in 2 high profile series (WC 1996 and Champions Trophy 2001). McGrath won against Tendulkar in 2 other high profile games (1999 WC and 2003 WC).
 
People complaining Kohli having low average outside Asia? Is this a joke? Has anybody checked tendulkar's average outside Asia? Kohli needs to prove himself against Starc now? Tendulkar was Mcgrath's bunny his whole life, did he prove anything? Kohli's overseas stats are quite better than Tendulkar's and only poor in England.

By poor, I mean it's just 32 which is equal to Tendulkar's oh so great stats against Aus in Aus. I feel people are creating false memories of Tendulkar being good everywhere in ODIs. Yeah Kohli is soo bad in England smh

Kindly reply to my points about relative impact in the teams of their times. :)

If you want to compare numbers compare the MOM and MOS awards! :srt
 
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How is that Kohlis fault that Starc was injured? If he didn't score you would beat him with a stick over it LOL stop shifting the goal posts.

Kohlis record in England and South Africa is poor, but his record in other countries home and away is good.. Of other teams rest there bowlers or they are injured it's no fault of Kohlis.

That is not true. Even stevens. Tendulkar was very good in 1996 world cup. If you look at his MCC vs ROW he made 125 against Donald/Mcgrath/Srinath/Kumble
 
Tendulkar's outside Asia stats in 90s weren't great.

That was due to him trying to be too aggressive in conditions that was meant to be played with more caution.

Post 2000, his overseas records improved.

Overall, its true that Tendulkar doesn't have balanced records in ODI. That is one major strike against him compared to Viv.

But you can't use that against him when comparing post 2000 players. These guys are enjoying FTBing in jolly outside Asia conditions (especially post 2011).

While Tendulkar has that stat flaw, the same dude averaged 48 in 1992 WC in Aus, 80s in 1996 WC in Asia, flopped in 1999 WC in Eng, highest scorer and MOS in 2003 WC in SA, flopped in 2007 WC in WI, and 2nd highest scorer in 2011 WC in Asia.

4 successes out of 6 WCs.

And here you have Kohli who is yet to have 1 success in WC and he played 2 WCs in the easiest era.

With that being said, Kohli has aspects to his game that is so ruthless and match winning that its hard to ignore that. As of now, Sachin is ahead but Kohli can catch up at the end of his career. Such has been Kohli's impact.

However he ABSOLUTELY must have a successful WC. No ifs and buts over it.
 
Not really, my standards are certainly higher then yours but am not a hater I think you just can't accept any criticism being a huge fan of Virat so resort to low grade garbage when no one agrees with incoherent arguments, Kohli can only do what he is faced with but am not sure why you repeatedly overlook the point that when he is met with difficult circumstances he has to perform in them to be considered a great until then I will not hype him like you I'd judge him a bit more objectively

Calm down your standards aren't that high I can remember you saying you rate Warner higher than Smith, Warner has 3 test centuries outside of Australia . If Kohli only scores on flat tracks, why do you rate a proven flat track bully so high? :))) :)))
 
Both fans are going overboard with attacking other players undeservedly. Both have pluses and minuses. One has loads of time to correct. Let us wait and watch. Kohli has definitely brought a winning culture into the side. Tendulkar did some champion stuff with ball as well :)
 
That is not true. Even stevens. Tendulkar was very good in 1996 world cup. If you look at his MCC vs ROW he made 125 against Donald/Mcgrath/Srinath/Kumble

That was the 1998 Tendulkar.

1998 Tendulkar > Viv Richards.

That Tendulkar was a ruthless clutch machine. Didn't spare anyone that year. Haha.
 
That is not true. Even stevens. Tendulkar was very good in 1996 world cup. If you look at his MCC vs ROW he made 125 against Donald/Mcgrath/Srinath/Kumble

Lol I rate Sachin highly as a batsmen, op has called Sachin ovverated yet he is now using him to put Kohli down.
 
And yet Tendulkar THRASHED McGrath out of the attack in 2 high profile series (WC 1996 and Champions Trophy 2001). McGrath won against Tendulkar in 2 other high profile games (1999 WC and 2003 WC).

2 matches don't cover the fact Tendulkar was Mcgrath's bunny whole career. What excuse will tendulkar fans have if Kohli plays well against Starc (which he will do most likely since Australia is flatter than India now)? Kohli smacked Mitchell Johnson in prime when he was amongst the top 3 pace bowlers in the world.

And complaining about Kohli's average outside Asia is not only hypocrisy but also silly since Kohli actually has better stats than Tendulkar in Aus, SAF and NZ, and his England stat is comparable to Tendulkar's stats against Aus in Aus.

It would be funny if people catch on to Tendulkar averaging 25 in SAF and keep trolling. At least that would be legitimate unlike Kohli's.
 
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2 matches don't cover the fact Tendulkar was Mcgrath's bunny whole career. What excuse will tendulkar ******* have if Kohli plays well against Starc (which he will do most likely since Australia is flatter than India now)? Kohli smacked Mitchell Johnson in prime when he was amongst the top 3 pace bowlers in the world.

And complaining about Kohli's average outside Asia is not only hypocrisy but also silly since Kohli actually has better stats than Tendulkar in Aus, SAF and NZ, and his England stat is comparable to Tendulkar's stats against Aus in Aus.

It would be funny if people catch on to Tendulkar averaging 25 in SAF and keep trolling. At least that would be legitimate unlike Kohli's.

McGrath in his career won against Tendulkar in ODIs...tests it was even stevens.

But SRT did have his moments against McGrath and had them at the highest level.
 
2 matches don't cover the fact Tendulkar was Mcgrath's bunny whole career. What excuse will tendulkar fans have if Kohli plays well against Starc (which he will do most likely since Australia is flatter than India now)? Kohli smacked Mitchell Johnson in prime when he was amongst the top 3 pace bowlers in the world.

And complaining about Kohli's average outside Asia is not only hypocrisy but also silly since Kohli actually has better stats than Tendulkar in Aus, SAF and NZ, and his England stat is comparable to Tendulkar's stats against Aus in Aus.

It would be funny if people catch on to Tendulkar averaging 25 in SAF and keep trolling. At least that would be legitimate unlike Kohli's.

Gomes,, why are u shying away from replying to me.
Do real facts of actual substance scare you??
 
Calm down your standards aren't that high I can remember you saying you rate Warner higher than Smith, Warner has 3 test centuries outside of Australia . If Kohli only scores on flat tracks, why do you rate a proven flat track bully so high? :))) :)))
Once again emulating nonsensical rubbish that for some really odd reason sounds a lot like PPs resident pessimist. PP nowadays has too much sheep smh :facepalm:

David Warner struggles against sideway movement...primarily spin. However he has 100s in the UAE and in South Africa. If you want to call his SA 100s on flat track innings, well then I guess your highness' 'greatness' in SA tests was also on flat tracks. In fact since you say that, Kohli has yet to score a 100s in any testing condition outside of Asia. The NZ 100 was on a track that am sure Dhawan almost scored a 100 on, the Australian tracks...well the less said about those, the better.

What exactly has you highness done then that differentiates him with Dave? From what I've seen, whenever he was provided with sporting tracks, he failed.
 
McGrath in his career won against Tendulkar in ODIs...tests it was even stevens.

But SRT did have his moments against McGrath and had them at the highest level.

Before someone says Tendulkar averaged 37 in tests that McGrath played...please note 3 points:

SRT averaged 46 in 1999 Aus tour and was MOS. Got blatant bad decisions atleast twice.
SRT's numbers dropped due to him being rushed back from injury in 2004 home test series.
In 2001 series at home, SRT vs McGrath was even stevens.
 
How is that Kohlis fault that Starc was injured? If he didn't score you would beat him with a stick over it LOL stop shifting the goal posts.

Kohlis record in England and South Africa is poor, but his record in other countries home and away is good.. Of other teams rest there bowlers or they are injured it's no fault of Kohlis.

Of course, it's not Kohli's fault. His fault is failing in Australia other than that series and in England and South Africa, and making it seem like he cannot handle good pacers who can move the ball around.
 
Once again emulating nonsensical rubbish that for some really odd reason sounds a lot like PPs resident pessimist. PP nowadays has too much sheep smh :facepalm:

David Warner struggles against sideway movement...primarily spin. However he has 100s in the UAE and in South Africa. If you want to call his SA 100s on flat track innings, well then I guess your highness' 'greatness' in SA tests was also on flat tracks. In fact since you say that, Kohli has yet to score a 100s in any testing condition outside of Asia. The NZ 100 was on a track that am sure Dhawan almost scored a 100 on, the Australian tracks...well the less said about those, the better.

What exactly has you highness done then that differentiates him with Dave? From what I've seen, whenever he was provided with sporting tracks, he failed.


The point I'm trying to make is he rates a player highly who has struggled overseas to score big but one who has scored big overseas he doesn't.

Never even commented on the pitches that he scored on in South Africa they were good 100s. But he has struggled vs swing as well. Which was shown in the ashes 2015 as well.
 
It is a bit comical to hype stats in England. As far as i can remember England was one of the worst ODI side for a very very long time. Only now after decades are looking a decent unit.

South Africa and England offer the most lateral movement to pace bowlers. Which further reinforces that Kohli struggles mightily against sideways movement. The countries don't matter too much; he failed against Pakistan at home as well on bowling-friendly pitches.

His record in Australia should improve, because like someone said, that place is flatter than India these days.
 
Of course, it's not Kohli's fault. His fault is failing in Australia other than that series and in England and South Africa, and making it seem like he cannot handle good pacers who can move the ball around.


Had one good series and one bad series . In the bad series he scored 183 as well. He's not going to score in every tour.

An average of 48 in South Africa is a failure in 2010 is a failure now?
 
Kohli scored in Joberg 1st innings.

He scored in Adelaide 4th innings.

Those 2 are bonafide gun innings on TOUGH pitches.

Kohli failed in Eng. Fair enough.

But there aren't a lot of chances for modern batsmen to perform on tough pitches in tests. Kohli wasn't great in Indian and Asian pitches but he has been improving on them big time now.
 
Kohli scored in Joberg 1st innings.

He scored in Adelaide 4th innings.

Those 2 are bonafide gun innings on TOUGH pitches.

Kohli failed in Eng. Fair enough.

But there aren't a lot of chances for modern batsmen to perform on tough pitches in tests. Kohli wasn't great in Indian and Asian pitches but he has been improving on them big time now.


The h next excuse is he isn't scoring against good attacks. I don't have a problem if these guys point out technical or mental issues but they are pointing out things which Kohli can't control.

As soon as he will fail on a difficult pitch he will be called an FTB, than he may not get another chance to rectify it due to flat pitches being the norm.
 
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Kohli scored in Joberg 1st innings.

He scored in Adelaide 4th innings.

Those 2 are bonafide gun innings on TOUGH pitches.

Kohli failed in Eng. Fair enough.

But there aren't a lot of chances for modern batsmen to perform on tough pitches in tests. Kohli wasn't great in Indian and Asian pitches but he has been improving on them big time now.

Why are you guys discussing Test matches!! There is simply no comparison there.

As for ODIs, I would simply compare MOM and MOS. Because unlike averages and SR, which has gone up consistently over the last few decades, the number of MOM and MOS awards are restricted to 1 per game or series. That pretty much tells you the value of a player in the game and the team!

and with that respect Sachin beats Kohli easily!!
 
The problem is that when you get very few chances to play on tougher situations/conditions and you fail for whatever reason, it creates a wrong sense of perception and things get repeated 1000s of times.

ABD is a choker in WC - WRONG. He was run out once and rain messed his other innings. He is no clutch player but he ain't no choker in WC.

Ashwin can't bowl outside Asia - Yeah, yeah - let him bowl on Lord's, Oval, Durban, Adelaide 2014 and then we will see. For years, he had to live with Aus shame (cos he never bowled elsewhere much) but now the criticism has dropped due to other spinners finding it just as hard in Aus.

Kohli can't play in tougher conditions - Not necessarily true though at one point, he truly was out of sorts. He has flopped bad in Eng but apart from that, never got much chances and seems to have improved now. If he can score in SA, he has ability. Yet to be seen how much of it.

This is a general statement. Not a response to any post in particular.
 
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Calm down your standards aren't that high I can remember you saying you rate Warner higher than Smith, Warner has 3 test centuries outside of Australia . If Kohli only scores on flat tracks, why do you rate a proven flat track bully so high? :))) :)))

So what you are suggesting is that based on the fact that Warner is a FTB we should advocate the greatness of Virat Kohli because he scores runs on flat tracks :yk2 clutching at straws now when pretty much every argument of yours has been exposed :yk3
 
Why are you guys discussing Test matches!! There is simply no comparison there.

As for ODIs, I would simply compare MOM and MOS. Because unlike averages and SR, which has gone up consistently over the last few decades, the number of MOM and MOS awards are restricted to 1 per game or series. That pretty much tells you the value of a player in the game and the team!

and with that respect Sachin beats Kohli easily!!

Maybe some posts are made due to the direction a thread takes.
 
Gomes,, why are u shying away from replying to me.
Do real facts of actual substance scare you??

What impact? India's top order batting average from 1994-2012 was 38.38.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;groupby=overall;orderby=batting_average;spanmax1=15+May+2012;spanmin1=05+Jan+1994;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Tendulkar's was 47.04. Difference of 9 (I counted from 1994 to be fair with tendulkar, otherwise it would be worse for him)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;spanmin1=5+Jan+1994;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

India's top order batting average from 2008-2017 was 42.45. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;groupby=overall;orderby=runs;spanmin1=05+Jan+2008;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Kohli's average is 54.40. Difference of over 12 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

As for man of the match awards, Shakib Al Hasan has the same amount as Glenn Mcgrath. So Shakib = Mcgrath? How many matches have Tendulkar played against the associates like Kenya and Namibia? I am amazed how people factor how people say Kohli benefits from flat tracks yet forget tendulkar bullying associates
 
Had one good series and one bad series . In the bad series he scored 183 as well. He's not going to score in every tour.

An average of 48 in South Africa is a failure in 2010 is a failure now?

183? Where?

He failed in three out of five matches on that 2010 tour, not scoring any runs and the runs he did score came at a low SR. Only that 80* has helped preserve some of his dignity. However, this just goes to show that he failed miserably on that latter tour.

Can't believe you're still making excuses, lol. Just accept that he has failed in South Africa and England and hope that he does better in 2018 and 2019.
 
The h next excuse is he isn't scoring against good attacks. I don't have a problem if these guys point out technical or mental issues but they are pointing out things which Kohli can't control.

As soon as he will fail on a difficult pitch he will be called an FTB, than he may not get another chance to rectify it due to flat pitches being the norm.

Just saw this.

#131 would be my response.
 
Wrong, he's got a valid point which simply exposes you sir. What he is saying is that Kohli hasn't yet proved anything vs good bowlers and/or on good pitches. Everything you are saying is hypothetical. If you look above, you will see that I listed quite a few SEREIS', not matches, where Kohli failed because the conditions were even slightly testing with some decent bowlers. Also he admits that Kohli is probably the greatest chaser ever whereby there is little doubt.

Kohli cannot be compared against people like Viv and Sachin simply because he hasn't played vs opposition on their level and whenever he has come across some decent opposition in terms of bowlers and/or sporting wickets, he's been unconvincing.

I wouldn't be surprised if you don't rate Bradman because he was the undisputed king in a 'weak' era but Kohli is some sort of deity because he's the best in the world(that to arguable since AB has a clear case too)

Please stop bandwagoning.

Exactly mate, the fandom which some folk have is getting very creepy :)) Sure there's a chance he can overcome testing conditions when met with them but why should I accept it as fact when there is little evidence to support that? for now people are advocating hypothetical scenario's to justify their line of thinking more then anything
 
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The problem is that when you get very few chances to play on tougher situations/conditions and you fail for whatever reason, it creates a wrong sense of perception and things get repeated 1000s of times.

ABD is a choker in WC - WRONG. He was run out once and rain messed his other innings. He is no clutch player but he ain't no choker in WC.

Ashwin can't bowl outside Asia - Yeah, yeah - let him bowl on Lord's, Oval, Durban, Adelaide 2014 and then we will see. For years, he had to live with Aus shame (cos he never bowled elsewhere much) but now the criticism has dropped due to other spinners finding it just as hard in Aus.

Kohli can't play in tougher conditions - Not necessarily true though at one point, he truly was out of sorts. He has flopped bad in Eng but apart from that, never got much chances and seems to have improved now. If he can score in SA, he has ability. Yet to be seen how much of it.

This is a general statement. Not a response to any post in particular.

Of course, this only comes in for our favorite players, doesn't it?

Kohli has played 30 ODIs in Australia, South Africa and England, a series at home against Pakistan and he's had five test matches in England to show that he can play swing/seam. He's failed in every single one of them and displayed a clear weakness. Rather than pretend that he is infallible and the equal of Viv, Ponting, Sachin and de Villiers in ODIs, we should acknowledge the weaknesses and hope that he gets better.

The only innings where he did very well was against South Africa, in the first innings of the Jo'Burg test where he scored 109 in the first innings. That was truly a classy innings and his best. However, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

AB, Amla, Kohli being WC chokers is harsh, I agree, because none of them have played many KO games. Especially the South Africans. AB in fact, has done very well.
 
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Kohli hasn't scored much in tough opponents in tough conditions in ODIs.

But who has in modern era?

No one gets a chance to play in tough pitches these days. Tendulkar has had his share of flops in tough pitches in ODIs. Its just that he had more chances to prove himself in a variety of pitches vs ATG bowlers.

What's to say Kohli can't do the same?

Kohli played against peak Johnson during an ODI series in India (Johnson was rushed back post that series to Aus for the famous Ashes) and he scored 2 legendary 100s leading to 350 scores being chased down.

Kohli vs Tendulkar in tests is a different debate.
 
Of course, this only comes in for our favorite players, doesn't it?

Kohli has played 30 ODIs in Australia, South Africa and England, a series at home against Pakistan and he's had five test matches in England to show that he can play swing/seam. He's failed in every single one of them and displayed a clear weakness. Rather than pretend that he is infallible and the equal of Viv, Ponting, Sachin and de Villiers in ODIs, we should acknowledge the weaknesses and hope that he gets better.

The only innings where he did very well was against South Africa, in the first innings of the Jo'Burg test where he scored 109 in the first innings. That was truly a classy innings and his best. However, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

AB, Amla, Kohli being WC chokers is harsh, I agree, because none of them have played many KO games. Especially the South Africans. AB in fact, has done very well.

Bro....how did you sneak :amla: in? :)))

ABD is NOT a WC choker.

Amla is a super duper hyper duper WC choker.

Kohli is a mega WC choker too. Flopped in all knockouts except one where he scored just 30 in finals.
 
Bro....how did you sneak :amla: in? :)))

ABD is NOT a WC choker.

Amla is a super duper hyper duper WC choker.

Kohli is a mega WC choker too. Flopped in all knockouts except one where he scored just 30 in finals.

This is because like you said, Amla and Kohli have only played a handful of WC KO matches. Three to be precise, in Amla's case.

The fact that three matches are enough for you to label a player a "super duper hyper duper" choker but 30 matches is not enough to conclude that Kohli struggles against swing/seam and good pace bowlers shows your stinking hypocrisy.
 
Kohli hasn't scored much in tough opponents in tough conditions in ODIs.

But who has in modern era?

No one gets a chance to play in tough pitches these days. Tendulkar has had his share of flops in tough pitches in ODIs. Its just that he had more chances to prove himself in a variety of pitches vs ATG bowlers.

What's to say Kohli can't do the same?

Kohli played against peak Johnson during an ODI series in India (Johnson was rushed back post that series to Aus for the famous Ashes) and he scored 2 legendary 100s leading to 350 scores being chased down.

Kohli vs Tendulkar in tests is a different debate.

AB and Amla average 45 and 50 in Australia+England against the home attacks. Of course, they can't face their own bowlers but both average 50+ against everyone else in South Africa. I believe Dhoni has done well too, for a finisher.

They have also batted against Pakistan in the UAE, at a time when ODI scores in the UAE were the lowest and an attack consisting of Ajmal, Afridi, Hafeez, Gul, Junaid and Irfan/Akhtar was waiting for teams.

South Africa and England have the toughest ODI pitches and Australia did too, until recently.
 
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This is because like you said, Amla and Kohli have only played a handful of WC KO matches. Three to be precise, in Amla's case.

The fact that three matches are enough for you to label a player a "super duper hyper duper" choker but 30 matches is not enough to conclude that Kohli struggles against swing/seam and good pace bowlers shows your stinking hypocrisy.

Can't apply that for WC knockouts. Everyone gets only a few knockouts in their career.

SRT played just 6 WC knockouts in a 25 year old career.

The fact that three matches are enough for you to label a player a "super duper hyper duper" choker but 30 matches is not enough to conclude that Kohli struggles against swing/seam and good pace bowlers shows your stinking hypocrisy.

No. Its not because of knockouts only.

Its because Amla has been a complete joke in every WC game barring minnows.

Kohli averages 43 in Aus against Aus. Was excellent last series.
Averages 37 in SA against SA. Could have been better but a few bad games got the numbers down.
Averages 32 in Eng vs Eng. He didn't do well. His last series was a major flop but in the previous bilateral series, he averaged 38 at 84 SR. Not great but not so bad either.

So much for stinking hypocrisy. Minking hypocrisy.

:broad:
 
AB and Amla average 45 and 50 in Australia+England against the home attacks. Of course, they can't face their own bowlers but both average 50+ against everyone else in South Africa. I believe Dhoni has done well too, for a finisher.

They have also batted against Pakistan in the UAE, at a time when ODI scores in the UAE were the lowest and an attack consisting of Ajmal, Afridi, Hafeez, Gul, Junaid and Irfan/Akhtar was waiting for teams.

South Africa and England have the toughest ODI pitches and Australia did too, until recently.

ABD and Amla have done very well in that aspect. Much better than Kohli no doubt.

But I am talking about tough pitches. Barring a few odd ones here and there, modern pitches are mostly batting paradises.

If you ask someone to name a few knocks of ODI bats in tough pitches, people will hem and haw. Its cos those kind of pitches are rare.
 
South Africa and England offer the most lateral movement to pace bowlers. Which further reinforces that Kohli struggles mightily against sideways movement. The countries don't matter too much; he failed against Pakistan at home as well on bowling-friendly pitches.

His record in Australia should improve, because like someone said, that place is flatter than India these days.

Doesn't happen always in England. Azharuddin was such a poor player against moving ball did well in England . He did well in county as well. Only one player who is a master of moving ball i have seen is Dravid. No Indian batsman can come close to him in that department.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-india-2010/engine/match/463153.html?
This is one of the match where every batsman looked out of depth on a dodgy pitch.
 
South Africa and England offer the most lateral movement to pace bowlers. Which further reinforces that Kohli struggles mightily against sideways movement. The countries don't matter too much; he failed against Pakistan at home as well on bowling-friendly pitches.

His record in Australia should improve, because like someone said, that place is flatter than India these days.
This is another match where Steyn was breathing fire. Rohit could not even touch the ball. Sure Kohli did make only 31. But he did handle Steyn very well. Most of Tendulkar's ODI runs in England came only in 2007. 18 years after his debut. This automatic assumption that scoring in England is some kind of miracle is what puzzling. Many players with very weak technique has piled mountains of runs in England.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-a...e/match/648651.html?innings=1;view=commentary
 
ABD and Amla have done very well in that aspect. Much better than Kohli no doubt.

But I am talking about tough pitches. Barring a few odd ones here and there, modern pitches are mostly batting paradises.

If you ask someone to name a few knocks of ODI bats in tough pitches, people will hem and haw. Its cos those kind of pitches are rare.

Rare but not extinct. It is up to Kohli to perform when they come around. Generally speaking, pitches in South Africa and England are much more bowler-friendly than pitches in India and Kohli has failed in all the matches he has played there.

I saw the 2010 series and Kohli was all class in SA.

Can't apply that for WC knockouts. Everyone gets only a few knockouts in their career.

SRT played just 6 WC knockouts in a 25 year old career.



No. Its not because of knockouts only.

Its because Amla has been a complete joke in every WC game barring minnows.

Kohli averages 43 in Aus against Aus. Was excellent last series.
Averages 37 in SA against SA. Could have been better but a few bad games got the numbers down.
Averages 32 in Eng vs Eng. He didn't do well. His last series was a major flop but in the previous bilateral series, he averaged 38 at 84 SR. Not great but not so bad either.

So much for stinking hypocrisy. Minking hypocrisy.

:broad:

Which is why subtracting from WC matches makes no sense. In a WC, it doesn't matter who you are facing, the pressure of it being a WC match is intact. Therefore you just looking at KO matches or matches against specific teams leaves a player with only a handful of games to make an impact.

- Excellent in the last series because the pitches were unbelievably flat and Starc wasn't playing.
- It could not have been better because the only thing holding up his record in South Africa is an 80*. Otherwise, he's failed there pretty terribly.
- An average of 32 in England is "not so bad"?
- Good to see no excuses given for the "Aaney do" series. Washes away some of the stink. :uak
 
This is another match where Steyn was breathing fire. Rohit could not even touch the ball. Sure Kohli did make only 31. But he did handle Steyn very well. Most of Tendulkar's ODI runs in England came only in 2007. 18 years after his debut. This automatic assumption that scoring in England is some kind of miracle is what puzzling. Many players with very weak technique has piled mountains of runs in England.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-a...e/match/648651.html?innings=1;view=commentary

I have seen most of these matches so I don't even need these stats to make these claims. The stats are just further proof, not the be all, end all.

No one is saying that Kohli is a terrible player and he's much better than Rohit Sharma so what are you trying to prove by mentioning a match in which he barely scored 30 runs?
 
Rare but not extinct. It is up to Kohli to perform when they come around. Generally speaking, pitches in South Africa and England are much more bowler-friendly than pitches in India and Kohli has failed in all the matches he has played there.





Which is why subtracting from WC matches makes no sense. In a WC, it doesn't matter who you are facing, the pressure of it being a WC match is intact. Therefore you just looking at KO matches or matches against specific teams leaves a player with only a handful of games to make an impact.

- Excellent in the last series because the pitches were unbelievably flat and Starc wasn't playing.
- It could not have been better because the only thing holding up his record in South Africa is an 80*. Otherwise, he's failed there pretty terribly.
- An average of 32 in England is "not so bad"?
- Good to see no excuses given for the "Aaney do" series. Washes away some of the stink. :uak

Not bad was in reference to 2011 series in eng. Not overall in eng.
 
I have seen most of these matches so I don't even need these stats to make these claims. The stats are just further proof, not the be all, end all.

No one is saying that Kohli is a terrible player and he's much better than Rohit Sharma so what are you trying to prove by mentioning a match in which he barely scored 30 runs?

I am using this because of this "lateral movement" talk. Not all pitches have that. If anything SA has produced some of the very high scoring games. In England, India chased down 326 runs. Ganguly/Dravid had a 300 run partnership in a one dayer.
 
Going by some poster's logic, David Warner is a flat track bully and performing in SA means he's simply a flat track bully who can play a bit of bounce. On the other hand, the highness Kohli who also performed in those tracks is an absolute monster who obliterates all forms of lateral movement to the extent even the Don himself would be embarrassed to be mentioned with him.

Also going by some posters' logic that Kohli hasn't been presented the opportunities(even tho he has and has been unconvincing) therefore he's the greatest batmsan ever and Sachin is merely a newt in front of him...Oh yeah, Barry Richards is the ultimate greatest batsman ever because hypothetically, he could've done amazing in tests overall....alas however.
 
Kohli has been very good over the last two years and his record while chasing has been incredible. Its tempting to extrapolate this performance over the next five-seven years and declare his superiority to Tendulkar and other batting ATGs (Lara/Ponting etc). But i personally think we should hold on for a bit. Over the last 10-15 years, a number of very good batsmen have had purple patches where they appeared destined to break every record in the book e.g Amla, Hayden, Cook, Inzaman, Dravid, Andy Flower, Hussey, Chanderpaul, Sehwag etc. (I understand a lot of these were in tests but making a general point here). But invariably, they have not been able to sustain that beyond a 2-3 period and have moved back to above-average terriory. What i admire about Sachin was that he had a relatively long peak (1995-2003), but then had a very good track record after that as well (including another prolific run from 2008-11). I think it will be key to see how long Kohli will sustain this run. There will the inevitable injuries, greater scrutiny of his game and importantly the stress that comes from captaining the side on tough tours (I am not taking away from the wins in the domestic tests, but away tours will eventually bring disappointments/questions as they do for everyone). If he can continue to perform at these levels (or even slightly lower levels), there will be nothing left to argue -- the numbers will speak for themselves. Will be very interesting to watch.

One other qualitative point -- over the first 15 years of his career it did not seem like Tendulkar had a chink in his armour at all. He played swing, pace, spin all very well. Kohli has definitely struggled against swing. So just based on that i would say Sachin was better than Kohli at the same stage of his career. Kohli will need to set that right to be considered at the next level. He will get that chance -- given that there are two big ICC events in England over the next three years.
 
So what you are suggesting is that based on the fact that Warner is a FTB we should advocate the greatness of Virat Kohli because he scores runs on flat tracks :yk2 clutching at straws now when pretty much every argument of yours has been exposed :yk3

Ok
 
I am using this because of this "lateral movement" talk. Not all pitches have that. If anything SA has produced some of the very high scoring games. In England, India chased down 326 runs. Ganguly/Dravid had a 300 run partnership in a one dayer.

Those are exceptions rather than the rule. A team not scoring 300 is the exception, not the rule in India.
 
^ Longevity of Tendulkar cannot be matched by anyone because he started very very early . He was only 16. Also during the 90s schedule was not as demanding as it is now.
 
183? Where?

He failed in three out of five matches on that 2010 tour, not scoring any runs and the runs he did score came at a low SR. Only that 80* has helped preserve some of his dignity. However, this just goes to show that he failed miserably on that latter tour.

Can't believe you're still making excuses, lol. Just accept that he has failed in South Africa and England and hope that he does better in 2018 and 2019.


Sorry it was typo meant 133 vs Sri Lanka when India had to chase over 300 in about 38overs under lights.

Yes he's failed in South Africa and England. I can admit it. But he's an improved player now.
 
Sorry it was typo meant 133 vs Sri Lanka when India had to chase over 300 in about 38overs under lights.

Yes he's failed in South Africa and England. I can admit it. But he's an improved player now.

That's a fair post. I think he's improved too but it remains ti be seen how much.

Bashing Sri Lanka is one thing, taking on Starc is another.
 
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