What can Pakistan learn from the Indian education system?

[Oxy'sWingMan]

Initially, contemplated on posting this link as part of the "What went wrong for Pakistan" thread, where I came across a post by Garuda stating the importance India placed on education after independence. It then reminded me of an insightful and highly sophisticated discussion panel hosted by a Pakistani program recently. And I felt this in itself may generate substantial interest to merit its own thread.

I urge many of you, who are intrigued by the topic, to give it a watch. In a post, a while back, I raised the issue of the need for institutions to collaborate ideas, innovation, and resources to tackle issues at the various levels in Pakistan and work towards socioeconomic development. This is something India has pursued, especially in recent times, and a direct result of the platform laid out by Nehru to promote science, technology, and higher education - a point the panel addresses, as well.

A good watch, check it out guys.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gYmnPGHBkbE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Oxy'sWingMan]

Bump. I'm surprised that this didn't generate any discussion.

 

[Markhor]

When a nation spends more on guns and tanks, and less on books and schools, then a society regularly churns out illiterates and uneducated people who will vote PPP/PML-N. In some ways the education budget is deliberately kept low so that the illiterate masses continue to vote for the two main political parties.

Pakistan spends 1.8% of its GDP on education (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp). That's lower than countries like Sierra Leone, Gabon and Benin. It is shameful.

There a number of problems with the Pakistan education system. The primary education completion rate in Pakistan, given by UNESCO, is 33.8% in females and 47.18% in males. So there is lack of even basic education. The regional disparity is also a major issue - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Literacy_Map_Pakistan.jpg.

In FATA, the literacy rate is 29.5% in males and 3% in females.

Gender discrimination is also an issue - female literacy has consistently lagged behind men since 1947 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Literacy_Rate_Pak.jpg

There is also a lack of trained teachers. NGOs and religious organisations step in where the state should be providing at least a basic standard of education and facilities.

I do wish there was the political will from Pakistani politicians to introduce education reforms, especially aimed at the rural areas. I am certainly no fan of Nehru but its clear that Nehru's vision for India has succeeded whereas Gandhi's did not.

Jawaharlal Nehru was a passionate advocate of education for India's children and youth, believing it essential for India's future progress. His government oversaw the establishment of many institutions of higher learning, including the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, the Indian Institutes of Technology, the Indian Institutes of Management and the National Institutes of Technology.

Nehru also outlined a commitment in his five-year plans to guarantee free and compulsory primary education to all of India's children. For this purpose, Nehru oversaw the creation of mass village enrollment programmes and the construction of thousands of schools. Nehru also launched initiatives such as the provision of free milk and meals to children in order to fight malnutrition. Adult education centres, vocational and technical schools were also organised for adults, especially in the rural areas.

 

[Senman]

In India access to education is there but the quality of school education is not up to the world standards. World class higher educational institutes are there but only few can get in to it. So nothing to learn from us really.

School level education needs to be revised to match up to the rising standards of the world but as we know our politicians are not interested in it because they know they can get-away with it.

 

[IgnitedMind]

In India access to education is there but the quality of school education is not up to the world standards. World class higher educational institutes are there but only few can get in to it. So nothing to learn from us really.

School level education needs to be revised to match up to the rising standards of the world but as we know our politicians are not interested in it because they know they can get-away with it.

True, I see almost every family sending their younger kids to school these days...the present young adult literacy of 85 + suggest this....but quality of education is very bad in all the government schools. I think education should be privitized but may be with some subsidies...or atleast semi private....to increase competition and quality...

But Quality of education is very good in CBSE, ISCE schools(state and private) and colleges....I cannot talk for other states but...having studied all my life In ICSE syllabus..and only 10th in State syllabus(andhra)...state lags way behind....except in Mathematics ...

Education Department should either work on the state syllabus..or just follow either CBSE or ISCE ...but I imagine finding so many ICSE,CBSE range quality teachers will be a hard task.....And also instead of each state having a different syllabus...CBSE,ICSE will give uniformity

Btw...this is the 4th straight year Girls outshone boys in CBSE results released 2/3 days back....

 

[Wasim1]

I would love India and Pakistan to spend reverse the spending on military supporting terrorists spy agencies etc and instead give that to education/health.

What they spend on Education/Health give that to defense.

 

[Dolphins]

Pakistanis place more importance on religion, guns and other stuff. Also since Pakistanis have over 6 children, its close to impossible to give each of them good education. Girls are married at young ages and are looked down upon if they work. How can you expect to allocate sufficient funds for education when majority of the country's budget goes towards debt repayment and defence?
In places like FATA and Balochistan, children hold guns instead of pencils. Females are locked inside their houses never to be seen outside. Schools are blown up.
I don't know how education is in India so wont comment on that.

 

[jeetu]

Indian education system is bit messed up. It wants students to learn everything possible.
I remember carrying books and copies almost a third of my weight during school days everyday.
No wonder than most students here hate going to school under the burden of tons of subjects covering everything possible.

 

[Itachi]

Here's the issue. Indian gov gave right to education. But what about quality?

In rural areas, there isn't a proper room for school. In papers, probably a big house with 10, 20 rooms exist. In reality? Probably teachers are teaching under a tree.... And this is just a small picture.

And our literacy rate is only 74%. Its improving, but still way behind.

And quota system plus creamy layer. Oh my god! And its increasing! Delhi increased obc quota to 27% from 21%. Now, 49% seats are reserved. Good for those people. But what about us general categories!!!!

Its really sad to see when even after securing high marks you can't get a seat in an institution but another one, who didn't get even half the marks you scored, got the seat because he belongs to some quota.

It is harming more than benefits. Many students burnt themselves in protest to this quota system.

Sorry, i got offtopic. But whenever the indian education system topic comes up, it just boils my blood.

 

[Senman]

True, I see almost every family sending their younger kids to school these days...the present young adult literacy of 85 + suggest this....but quality of education is very bad in all the government schools. I think education should be privitized but may be with some subsidies...or atleast semi private....to increase competition and quality...

But Quality of education is very good in CBSE, ISCE schools(state and private) and colleges....I cannot talk for other states but...having studied all my life In ICSE syllabus..and only 10th in State syllabus(andhra)...state lags way behind....except in Mathematics ...

Education Department should either work on the state syllabus..or just follow either CBSE or ISCE ...but I imagine finding so many ICSE,CBSE range quality teachers will be a hard task.....And also instead of each state having a different syllabus...CBSE,ICSE will give uniformity

Btw...this is the 4th straight year Girls outshone boys in CBSE results released 2/3 days back....

CBSE is v v good but how many can afford it? or how many schools implement it? The existence in different standards of education is proving the low quality of education. Also as Itachi said the quota system is killing the quality. Although Quota was introduced to rise the standard of poor and ignored people there is absolutely 0% innovation, they(politicians) don't care as long as they get the votes.

I agree with you about the same standard should be implemented all-over India. Have you seen the news recently an Indian boy(educated in Germany) solved a 300 year old puzzle, imagine if he is studying in India he would be revising in & out the textbook to get in to engineering college or management institute.

The problem is with the center and state education boards who never revise their standards to match-up to the world. Parents and children are aware that they need education to compete in this highly competitive world but the idiots in power don't care, I just wish people like Anna Hazare or someone like him to start a campaign on this but they are too busy in criticizing how IPL spoiled Indian culture

 

[DeadlyVenom]

We had this Indian chap in my course at uni. The boy used to get over >95% in everything in what was a reasonably tough engineering course.

He even took a year out for a placement which means you suspend your studies, didnt actually suspend them, studied at home and still got 95% in the exams.

I remember asking him if he was the smartest guy in his class in India and he chuckled and said that he wasnt good enough to get into the best Indian university(IIT i think?)

Of course 1 example doesn't paint the whole story but it did indicate how much progress India is making in science and engineering etc when such talent isnt good enough for their best unis.

 

[jeetu]

We had this Indian chap in my course at uni. The boy used to get over >95% in everything in what was a reasonably tough engineering course.

He even took a year out for a placement which means you suspend your studies, didnt actually suspend them, studied at home and still got 95% in the exams.

I remember asking him if he was the smartest guy in his class in India and he chuckled and said that he wasnt good enough to get into the best Indian university(IIT i think?)

Of course 1 example doesn't paint the whole story but it did indicate how much progress India is making in science and engineering etc when such talent isnt good enough for their best unis.

The guys from IIT are simply exceptional. Two of my cousins succeeded in clearing that , both have exceptional retention power with decent problem solving skill. They can memorize a book within few readings. Sadly almost every guy from IIT is in America or Europe.

 

[IgnitedMind]

yeah ...getting into IIT is tough....there are specific IIT training center which prepare kids for IIT entrance exams..and kids take entrance exams to get into IIT training centers .... even clearing them..like Ramaih and krishna murty centers in andhra is considered a big deal.....people boast about their sons/daughters going to these centers....

but I do not think all IIT 's are of same standards....

 

[insaan]

The education system in IITs is not great. The IITs get a good quality of students because of the very tough entrance exam, which they are going to scrap now. The faculty at IITs is not good, maybe 2 out of 10 professors are good. Research happening is generally of low quality.

The same IIT students do great research when they go to foreign universities. It is the students and not the education system of IITs which should get the credit.

And to diverge from the topic, only the top 500 ranked students are exceptional. Really exceptional. The rest are very good students who are comparable to the students of NITs.

With the increase of IITs, it is only the old ones which are good. The new IITs will take years before reaching the same standard of infrastructure. As for faculty, there is a huge crunch. Don't expect the standard to improve with the current payscale of professors.

 

[chaiwala]

The education system in IITs is not great. The IITs get a good quality of students because of the very tough entrance exam, which they are going to scrap now. The faculty at IITs is not good, maybe 2 out of 10 professors are good. Research happening is generally of low quality.

The same IIT students do great research when they go to foreign universities. It is the students and not the education system of IITs which should get the credit.

This.

I have attempted to use IIT video lectures for self study in the past, and they are generally atrocious; the professors display the typical uninspired, monotonous drone that is common among many Indian educators. And I'm sure that this, along with the lack of quality research, is the reason IITs always perform poorly in university rankings (outside India, of course).

IIT students are often brilliant, however. I've had the pleasure of interacting with many that have come abroad for higher studies, and they generally perform near the top, even in international settings. And nearly all of my Indian professors are IIT alumni as well.

 

[IgnitedMind]

This.

I have attempted to use IIT video lectures for self study in the past, and they are generally atrocious; the professors display the typical uninspired, monotonous drone that is common among many Indian educators. And I'm sure that this, along with the lack of quality research, is the reason IITs always perform poorly in university rankings (outside India, of course).

IIT students are often brilliant, however. I've had the pleasure of interacting with many that have come abroad for higher studies, and they generally perform near the top, even in international settings. And nearly all of my Indian professors are IIT alumni as well.

This is the problem with proffessors all over India..not just IIT..atleast from what I have seen..most of them are dull...there will be one or two teachers in a school who are awesome...and the rest even though they are good at what they teach..they are not good teachers...

and I guess I agree with the point that IIT's are IIT's because of the students..but not really due to IIT as an institution....and as insaan said...NIT s are doing good these days..

 

[insaan]

Traditionally, education has been a low priority issue among politicians, because the results come very late. The government is more concerned with what is visible in 5 years, so that they can get elected again.

It was Nehru who knew the value of education for building a better India. Most of the top educational institutions were built in his era. The IITs, AIIMs, IIMs, NITs all owe it to Nehru's vision.

 

[Pure Evil]

<B>The education system in IITs is not great. The IITs get a good quality of students because of the very tough entrance exam, which they are going to scrap now. The faculty at IITs is not good, maybe 2 out of 10 professors are good. </B>Research happening is generally of low quality.

The same IIT students do great research when they go to foreign universities. It is the students and not the education system of IITs which should get the credit.

<B>And to diverge from the topic, only the top 500 ranked students are exceptional. Really exceptional. </B>The rest are very good students who are comparable to the students of NITs.

With the increase of IITs, it is only the old ones which are good. The new IITs will take years before reaching the same standard of infrastructure. As for faculty, there is a huge crunch. Don't expect the standard to improve with the current payscale of professors.

I agree with the above.

Infact I would say only the top 200 are exceptional. The rest are just good by average standards. The Mtech's even the cream is just

 

[blitzace]

I think in Pakistan the main problem is students lack a sense of direction in thier careers. Most of them study Engineering, accounting, MBA or Medical, because everyone else is doing it or pressure from parents.

Believe me there are other fields even in pakistan, but nobody bothers no guidance as well, sp what happens is students even though they dont have the aptidude or passion for it just scrape through it, or might even excel in their chosen field but they have made a comprimise, just to earn money or save "face" in front of thier peers or relatives.

 

[deathstreak]

This is the problem with proffessors all over India..not just IIT..atleast from what I have seen..most of them are dull...there will be one or two teachers in a school who are awesome...and the rest even though they are good at what they teach..they are not good teachers...

and I guess I agree with the point that IIT's are IIT's because of the students..but not really due to IIT as an institution....and as insaan said...NIT s are doing good these days..

I think you guys are confusing between the professor's ability to teach and the professor's knowledge.

There are very few who excel at both, and yes the quota system in selecting profs have degraded the quality. But when you realize that a good recommendation from quiet a few of the profs in the original IITs can get you in almost any good college you want, it shows the ability of the profs.

You are right though the top 500 are exceptional, they have the unique blend of hard work and intelligence. The next are a decent mixture of lazy intelligence and pure hard work.

But the new IITs are making it difficult, not enough professors, we had a ratio of 1 prof for 5-8 students, not it will be more like a 1 to 50

 

[finalfantasy7]

Row erupts as 34 schools shut because all students failed exams

The Indian government has shut down 34 schools after no students passed this year’s final exams, in a move branded as “callous” by critics.

At least 1,000 students in the northeastern state of Assam failed their Class X assessments – taken before the age of 15 – meaning they have not qualified for higher education. Teachers blamed the results on Covid-19 lockdowns, which they said hit students’ attention and confidence.

But in response to the poor results, the Assam government shut down 34 schools and said it would send the pupils to better-performing institutions. Officials told the Telegraph that, in total, nearly 2,000 of the state’s 50,000 schools are now being assessed and could also be closed due to poor performance.

“The primary duty of schools is to impart education,” said Mr Ranoj Pegu, the state’s education minister. “If a school cannot ensure that its students pass the Class X exam, there is no point in keeping these schools operational. The government cannot spend public money on schools turning a zero success record.”

But others said the exam results demonstrate the huge ramifications of lockdowns on the country’s 270 million pupils. India’s schools were closed for a year, and many from lower-income families were unable to afford smartphones to follow lessons online.

They add that shutting institutions does not tackle shortages of staff and resources.

“I am shocked that our government has become so callous that it wants to hand out a collective punishment to teachers and students instead of improving the education facilities,” said Ratul Chandra, the general secretary of the teachers association in Assam.

Mr Chandra accused the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party government of destroying the public education system by engaging 70 per cent of teachers in non-teaching works like conducting censuses, elections and rolling out the government’s social welfare schemes.

He said that in 4,000 primary schools in Assam there is only one teacher in each school, while in 300 schools there are no teachers available and they are run by teachers of neighbouring schools on a stop-gap arrangement.

Poor learning standards
Khanin Goswami, a high school teacher in Assam, also blamed a lack of teachers for the poor exam results – especially in rural areas. There are around 240,000 teachers for 5.6 million students working in approximately 50,000 schools across Assam. The majority of them are posted in the urban areas, creating a deficiency in rural areas where results are mostly poor.

Education in public schools in India is free but learning standards are poor, with teachers complaining that students promoted from primary to high schools without exams are the major reasons for their failure.

“Elementary education in public schools of India is inadequate, outdated, and archaic. It creates a ripple effect across the academic profile of students enrolled in these schools,” said Altaf Hussain, an educationist.

At least 80 per cent of the students in public high schools cannot read or write, Mr Goswami added.

“Can you imagine, we have to teach the English alphabet to ninth class students [aged 15]? Even they lack basic knowledge of addition and subtraction in mathematics. How can they learn everything in one year and pass the class 10 exams?” he said.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...A118xwt?cvid=c691f0661712463495c0eed2b3aa16ac

 

[PakLFC]

What Pak can learn is how to improve our broken educational system. It may not be perfect but most Indian institutions are much better then the rubbish we have. Only the military in Pak is worthy of any praise and holding the country together.

 

[Yossarian]

What Pak can learn is how to improve our broken educational system. It may not be perfect but most Indian institutions are much better then the rubbish we have. Only the military in Pak is worthy of any praise and holding the country together.

Pakistan's military is the main thing holding Pakistan back from progressing. It eats up most of the budget of the govt (which is already small considering the size and population of the country, mainly due to an extremely low percentage of the working population paying income taxes).

The military needs a continued threat of conflict in order to justify the vast amounts spent on military hardware, personnel (and military pensions). Furthermore, for the military officer class, it is a freebie ride of luxury and privilege. The senior office class and their families get luxury housing and paid servants, at a level unheard of in other military around the world. their children go to the best schools and universities (funded by the military), and get treated like royalty. Even the wives and children regard themselves as being untouchable as far as the laws of the land are concerned.

And when they do retire, not only are they given lucrative jobs, but are also given land and property as a parting gift. And to cap it off, all the support services provided to keep the military going, from provision of food supplies to uniforms, is done by companies owned and run by former officers.

And lastly, the officer class ensure that their own offspring, brought up and educated in the best schools and colleges at the military's expense, are fast tracked to become the next generation of military officers.

No govt. can afford to upset the military officer class and affect their privileges.

 

[PakLFC]

Pakistan's military is the main thing holding Pakistan back from progressing. It eats up most of the budget of the govt (which is already small considering the size and population of the country, mainly due to an extremely low percentage of the working population paying income taxes).

The military needs a continued threat of conflict in order to justify the vast amounts spent on military hardware, personnel (and military pensions). Furthermore, for the military officer class, it is a freebie ride of luxury and privilege. The senior office class and their families get luxury housing and paid servants, at a level unheard of in other military around the world. their children go to the best schools and universities (funded by the military), and get treated like royalty. Even the wives and children regard themselves as being untouchable as far as the laws of the land are concerned.

And when they do retire, not only are they given lucrative jobs, but are also given land and property as a parting gift. And to cap it off, all the support services provided to keep the military going, from provision of food supplies to uniforms, is done by companies owned and run by former officers.

And lastly, the officer class ensure that their own offspring, brought up and educated in the best schools and colleges at the military's expense, are fast tracked to become the next generation of military officers.

No govt. can afford to upset the military officer class and affect their privileges.

We need to be well armed in what is a violent neighbourhood with India and China also at each other's throats. First take look at India's military budget compared to ours then speak. These are the soldiers who give their lives so that ungrateful people like you can eat and sleep instead all you do is moan about them. Every military spends no more then the American's do yet we never see other countries condemn their own military. Only Pakistanis if that is what you are do this. Why don't you go and defend the country yourself Mr Rambo if you are that hard??

Even if the kid's of military generals attend the best educational institutions around the world it is the common soldier who defends the country. You are telling me that we should roll back on the spending so that India can invade us the next day. How do you know that children of other military generals of other countries are not attending the best institutions in the world too?. You can not paint the entire military as being bad or corrupt just because the kid's of high ranking generals receive VIP treatment.

You stop worrying about who gets what instead become a high ranking military officer yourself to receive all the benefits you are talking about or a soldier taking some bullets on the chest for the country you claim to love. It is the military who are helping so many victims of the current floods more then anyone else. Where are your beloved politicians including Imran Khan? I will tell you IK is telling Pak people to dry up the remittances so that Shahbaz is ousted from power giving him a free ride to take over.

If the government was sincere to the country for a change then the military would not have to get involved in politics. Now don't say something daft like we have good governance when we never have had on our entire history.. The easiest thing to do is sit behind a box and criticize those who die for the country like our soldiers do. You go and do that first if you have the gut's before having a go at them.

 

[JaDed]

Rather look towards east Asia, Indian education system is a joke except top IIMs or ISB everything is atrocious .

 

[NishanKonar]

Rather look towards east Asia, Indian education system is a joke except top IIMs or ISB everything is atrocious .

Not really. There loads of good colleges other than IIT / IIMs. Like NITs , BITS, JJTI , Jadavpur, Anna , FMS, XLRI , MDI , Osmania , DU , AIIMS, govt medical colleges. Although IIT & IIMs get most hype. Here in the US there are loads of students from less known colleges and they are doing very well

Where we are lacking is research. Even IITs and IIMs don't produce any cutting edge research. Which is why many students move abroad for Masters and Ph D. But our undergrad studies is pretty top notch

ps : I am myself from IIM - so don't say I am jealous

 

[ex-q-zit]

Futuristic Education System Being Created In India: PM Modi On New Policy

Prime Minister Narendra Modi today said that through the new National Education Policy (NEP), a forward-looking and futuristic education system was being created in India for the first time, and accused the past governments of not doing anything to regain the country's lost glory due to their "slave mentality".

PM Modi, who was addressing the 75th 'Amrut Mahotsav' of Shree Swaminarayan Gurukul at Rajkot via video link, also said the number of premier educational institutions like IITs, IIMs and medical colleges in the country increased substantially after 2014, the year when his government came to power at the Centre for the first time.

Hailing India's ancient 'gurukul' (residential schooling) system of education, the Prime Minister said knowledge has been the highest purpose of life in the country, and added that saints and spiritual leaders helped revive the country's lost glory in the field of education.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/fut...narendea-modi-on-new-education-policy-3634722

No matter how futuristic teh education system is its useless if there are no jobs. Creating jobs is also key especially in a country like India which has a huge younger population.

 

[sweep_shot]

Learning from Indian education system? Why?

Entire subcontinent doesn't have good education system (including India).

 

[Stewie]

I do not believe the issue with our education is anything other than our own slavish mentality and still stuck in colonial ways, not utilizing our critical thinking skills or simply not having the ability to think outside the box.

When I was a student in Pakistan, the barometer was who can read write English well. By default that student is the best in class. I think it was a ridiculous way to determine a student's overall abiity based on English language skills. Another key aspect was emphasis on cramming. Just cramming everything so you can reproduce it on paper during the exams. What to do with it, or what does it even mean or how to utilize it in practical world was never the focus.

Students ability or marks were based on how long the essay style answer was (and not what was written, etc). These were some glaring issues with our education system back then (about 25 years ago) this may have changed now.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

It’s not the system we can learn from.

It’s the importance placed on getting an education which is what we need to inculcate and which india already has in abundance. Middle class and poor Indians genuinely see education as a path to becoming well off and hence put in the effort. Pakistanis don’t

 

[Sidilicious]

It’s not the system we can learn from.

It’s the importance placed on getting an education which is what we need to inculcate and which india already has in abundance. Middle class and poor Indians genuinely see education as a path to becoming well off and hence put in the effort. Pakistanis don’t

This is what I have seen amongst the Pakistanis, lack of stress on education.

Also, india used to be far ahead in teaching history. Mughals were given as much importance as the Hindu leaders. Going ahead, this will not be true anymore and we too are diluting our textbooks with feelings rather than facts.

 

[offstump]

I do not believe the issue with our education is anything other than our own slavish mentality and still stuck in colonial ways, not utilizing our critical thinking skills or simply not having the ability to think outside the box.

When I was a student in Pakistan, the barometer was who can read write English well. By default that student is the best in class. I think it was a ridiculous way to determine a student's overall abiity based on English language skills. Another key aspect was emphasis on cramming. Just cramming everything so you can reproduce it on paper during the exams. What to do with it, or what does it even mean or how to utilize it in practical world was never the focus.

Students ability or marks were based on how long the essay style answer was (and not what was written, etc). These were some glaring issues with our education system back then (about 25 years ago) this may have changed now.

Some great points. Additionally, I would say the teachers themselves are highly under qualified for their roles so it’s a double whammy. You have a system which is not teaching any sort of critical thinking or problem solving, and even if you wanted to change the teachers lack the competency and capability to do so.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It’s not the system we can learn from.

It’s the importance placed on getting an education which is what we need to inculcate and which india already has in abundance. Middle class and poor Indians genuinely see education as a path to becoming well off and hence put in the effort. Pakistanis don’t

I agree for the most part but the system is solid too.

There is no focus on ratta. Indians generally learn the underlying principles of the topics and are able to create new knowledge and drive advances on topics.

I'm not sure what the technical research output of Indian universities is but im sure they will start pumping out papers soon.

 

[Buffet]

I'm not sure what the technical research output of Indian universities is but im sure they will start pumping out papers soon.

https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20214...ountry-region-or-economy-and-scientific-field

 

[JustAnObserver]

Learning from Indian education system? Why?

Entire subcontinent doesn't have good education system (including India).

Stop including India.

In Indian culture - there is a lot of emphasis to acquire knowledge, to be creative (classical music, classical dance, sculpture, drama & other arts) & the push for the same has been there since many centuries, whether in terms of the gods which were specifically created for common people to pray & acquire such aspects of life or in terms of the family tradition to focus their efforts (physical & financial) on acquiring as much knowledge as possible to move up in life & become more useful for their society. This has only increased ever since India became independent.

There is a special day when 3 & 4 year old children are initiated into the process of education at temples & homes by praying to the god of knowledge & formally helped by their parents/grandparents to write the first few alphabets of their language on a plate or banana leaf comprising either rice or wheat. This has been an age old tradition in South India but it has now been adopted by schools in other regions of India too. This is a such a noble aim for a child & its family to pray & aspire that they get good education for living a useful life. Even the strictly run Christian schools - have started using this day to get new children admitted into their schools (at Kindergarten level). Nowhere in the rest of the world, can you see such a thing happening in Christian schools.

There has always been another special day & this has been celebrated since many centuries - to cherish the efforts of teaching experts (Guru) & thank them for their help in aiding students to acquire spiritual or academic or any worldly knowledge.

Teacher's day in Modern India is celebrated across the entire country on 5th September of every year and this tradition has been started since 1962. The reason for the chosen date - is that it is the birth date of free India's 2nd President Dr. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan (a scholarly & statesman president, who was a professor of Eastern Religions & Ethics in the University of Oxford). This idea to dedicate one day to appreciate all the Teachers of the nation was devised in Modern India at least 3 decades before the United Nations decided to declare 5th October as World Teacher's Day (which anyway is not followed in India).

I have studied with Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indonesian & Turkish students and i have interacted with them a lot.

I would rate the Turkish & Indonesian students as more eager to acquire useful knowledge when compared to Pakistani students.

Soon after 9/11 happened- the university in Europe where i was studying simply rejected all applications that were coming in from Pakistan to study for the next academic year. It also did not help that already enrolled Pakistani students where boasting in the university & its hostels - that the US fighter aircrafts & satellites cannot hunt down the Al-Qaeda terrorists in Afghanistan because the terrorists roam around in Horses & know all the paths, short-cuts in the regions to quickly escape any attack on them & that they reside/hide in very deep caves & tunnels so as to be invisible to their attackers and to also suddenly ambush the American & NATO soldiers. I was shocked that there could be students who boasted such things in an university to other students who came from all around the globe to study. Many years later, when i came to know that the US has developed & started using Mother-Of-All-Bombs in Afghanistan to kill terrorists hiding in caves - i immediately remembered that the Pakistani students had indicated about this many years before.

IMHO - the culture to aspire, concentrate, persevere, self-analyse & acquire useful knowledge is simply not existent in Pakistan (& in Bangladesh too albeit at a comparatively lesser magnitude) because their local traditions & culture simply do not care about this most important requirement of life.

The above compilation is based on my experience & observations.

 

[sweep_shot]

IMHO - the culture to aspire, concentrate, persevere, self-analyse & acquire useful knowledge is simply not existent in Pakistan (& in Bangladesh too albeit at a comparatively lesser magnitude) because their local traditions & culture simply do not care about this most important requirement of life.

The above compilation is based on my experience & observations.

If it is good, why do Indians go abroad to study? Should they not stay in India and study then?

It can be good compared to Pakistan and Bangladesh (still quite subjective) but I was referring to quality of education compared to Europe and North America.

 

[sweep_shot]

[MENTION=148738]JustAnObserver[/MENTION]

My point is entire subcontinent is third world and corrupt. There is not much to learn from one another as far as education system goes. That's my point.

If you want to learn, learn from the better sources. India is not a country to be emulated (more so now that BJP is in power).

 

[adi_62941]

I grew up in Dubai and studied in Pakistani School untill my 12th grade. I have seen many talented and good students (Pakistani) transferring from indian school into Pakistani school after grade 10th as they all wanted to get admission in Pakistani Universities in Pakistan. And they were all different from us (pakistani curriculum students) as they were more shinning and quick learners as well as had good grip on every subject plus good confidence. They remained top students of our Pakistani School from 10th to 12th grade.

Result is that Indian Curriculum is miles better than Pakistani as they teach analytical as well as non-ratta skills to their students. They are more like learn the basics and forget about memorizing things

 

[JaDed]

I hated Indian education system back in the day and I’m sure it’s better now but I do see that students and parents now know that it’s not good enough either and they learn additionally outside to understand concepts because to crack entrance exams that’s the only way.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

View attachment 118261

https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20214...ountry-region-or-economy-and-scientific-field

Thats quite impressive.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

[MENTION=148738]JustAnObserver[/MENTION]

My point is entire subcontinent is third world and corrupt. There is not much to learn from one another as far as education system goes. That's my point.

If you want to learn, learn from the better sources. India is not a country to be emulated (more so now that BJP is in power).

India should be emulated by Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, sri Lanka etc.

I'm not sure what the relevance of BJP government is to top level tech education.

 

[sweep_shot]

India should be emulated by Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, sri Lanka etc.

I'm not sure what the relevance of BJP government is to top level tech education.

Nope.

When it comes to education system, North American or European system should be emulated. Not Indian.

If Indian system is so good, why are there so many Indians studying abroad? They can stay in India. No?

BJP is relevant because they can significantly influence the education system.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Nope.

When it comes to education system, North American or European system should be emulated. Not Indian.

If Indian system is so good, why are there so many Indians studying abroad? They can stay in India. No?

BJP is relevant because they can significantly influence the education system.

There are medium term goals and long term goals.

India is relevant because it gives countries with a similar background, social demographics and issues with poverty etc an example of a pathway to make progress.

Some of their universities have broken into the top 200 world wide. Many western companies now recognise this and now recruit directly from Indian institutions. JP Morgan does this for example. Some unis even offer joint degrees you can recieve both an Indian and western degree via distance learning.

Slowly you will see the number of Indians studying abroad decreasing.

For 3rd world countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh it makes sense to try to emulate this model first than to try and think they can make Harvard style institutes overnight.

BJP can perhaps influence school level history but I dont see how they can influence tech education at university level.

May I ask what your educational background /sector is as it seems you haven't interacted much with Indian grads?

 

[sweep_shot]

There are medium term goals and long term goals.

India is relevant because it gives countries with a similar background, social demographics and issues with poverty etc an example of a pathway to make progress.

Some of their universities have broken into the top 200 world wide. Many western companies now recognise this and now recruit directly from Indian institutions. JP Morgan does this for example. Some unis even offer joint degrees you can recieve both an Indian and western degree via distance learning.

Slowly you will see the number of Indians studying abroad decreasing.

For 3rd world countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh it makes sense to try to emulate this model first than to try and think they can make Harvard style institutes overnight.

BJP can perhaps influence school level history but I dont see how they can influence tech education at university level.

May I ask what your educational background /sector is as it seems you haven't interacted much with Indian grads?

I am a business graduate who later on did a diploma in computer programming. My academic background is in both business and IT. I have studied/worked with Indian grads and I didn't find them special.

I think you are overrating Indian system. Also, India itself is a third world country.

 

[ahsan17]

There are medium term goals and long term goals.

India is relevant because it gives countries with a similar background, social demographics and issues with poverty etc an example of a pathway to make progress.

Some of their universities have broken into the top 200 world wide. Many western companies now recognise this and now recruit directly from Indian institutions. JP Morgan does this for example. Some unis even offer joint degrees you can recieve both an Indian and western degree via distance learning.

Slowly you will see the number of Indians studying abroad decreasing.

For 3rd world countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh it makes sense to try to emulate this model first than to try and think they can make Harvard style institutes overnight.

BJP can perhaps influence school level history but I dont see how they can influence tech education at university level.

May I ask what your educational background /sector is as it seems you haven't interacted much with Indian grads?

I am in software engineering, the colloquial field with a disproportionate number of Indians working in it. There are a few things working in India's favour that few or no other countries can match in terms of exporting so many graduates. It's not just about the universities.

1. A massive population where a lot of people speak English.
2. A country where a lot of its population are happily willing to migrate out of.
3. They are willing to work long hours and have their life revolve around the job. Most Indian engineers are not passionate about programming - they will openly admit to getting into the field just for the money and wanting to retire by 40-50. American born Indians on the other hand generally get into the field out of passion with money being an equally important factor but not the primary one. But they are not willing to work crazy like Indians. Add in other factors like being on a work visa tied to that company.
4. They also do shady things to get H1-B, like make 20 applications for the same individual. Indian consultancies are notorious for doing this in particular. And they do this at a large scale. This is one reason why Indians are able to hog H1-B, and as a result have a 150 year wait for green card.

The compounding circumstances will be difficult for other countries to emulate, even those with high populations like Pakistan, BD, Indonesia, Brazil etc. It's not a race worth getting into.

Also there's no chance Indians will be studying less abroad any time soon. Not sure which country you are in, but in Canada, Australia, NZ etc the rate of Indians doing bachelors is accelerating quite significantly, not slowing down. Canada in particular is seeing an influx like never seen. There are literally colleges that are now 95% Indian - no exaggeration. In US it seems to be stable but that's likely due to no chance of getting a green card in their life time outside of marriage.

 

[JaDed]

I am a business graduate who later on did a diploma in computer programming. My academic background is in both business and IT. I have studied/worked with Indian grads and I didn't find them special.

I think you are overrating Indian system. Also, India itself is a third world country.

I hope they found you special like we do on this forum.

 

[sweep_shot]

I hope they found you special like we do on this forum.

Did I say anything wrong? LOL.

No need to get irritated.

All I said was other third world countries shouldn't try to emulate another third world country (i.e. India). There are other better role models.

Please see Ahsan17's post.

 

[sweep_shot]

I am in software engineering, the colloquial field with a disproportionate number of Indians working in it. There are a few things working in India's favour that few or no other countries can match in terms of exporting so many graduates. It's not just about the universities.

1. A massive population where a lot of people speak English.
2. A country where a lot of its population are happily willing to migrate out of.
3. They are willing to work long hours and have their life revolve around the job. Most Indian engineers are not passionate about programming - they will openly admit to getting into the field just for the money and wanting to retire by 40-50. American born Indians on the other hand generally get into the field out of passion with money being an equally important factor but not the primary one. But they are not willing to work crazy like Indians. Add in other factors like being on a work visa tied to that company.
4. They also do shady things to get H1-B, like make 20 applications for the same individual. Indian consultancies are notorious for doing this in particular. And they do this at a large scale. This is one reason why Indians are able to hog H1-B, and as a result have a 150 year wait for green card.

The compounding circumstances will be difficult for other countries to emulate, even those with high populations like Pakistan, BD, Indonesia, Brazil etc. It's not a race worth getting into.

Also there's no chance Indians will be studying less abroad any time soon. Not sure which country you are in, but in Canada, Australia, NZ etc the rate of Indians doing bachelors is accelerating quite significantly, not slowing down. Canada in particular is seeing an influx like never seen. There are literally colleges that are now 95% Indian - no exaggeration. In US it seems to be stable but that's likely due to no chance of getting a green card in their life time outside of marriage.

Good post.

This is definitely the reality in North America. I am not sure about Europe but I am guessing it is not much different.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

[

Soon after 9/11 happened- the university in Europe where i was studying simply rejected all applications that were coming in from Pakistan to study for the next academic year. It also did not help that already enrolled Pakistani students where boasting in the university & its hostels - that the US fighter aircrafts & satellites cannot hunt down the Al-Qaeda terrorists in Afghanistan because the terrorists roam around in Horses & know all the paths, short-cuts in the regions to quickly escape any attack on them & that they reside/hide in very deep caves & tunnels so as to be invisible to their attackers and to also suddenly ambush the American & NATO soldiers. I was shocked that there could be students who boasted such things in an university to other students who came from all around the globe to study. Many years later, when i came to know that the US has developed & started using Mother-Of-All-Bombs in Afghanistan to kill terrorists hiding in caves - i immediately remembered that the Pakistani students had indicated about this many years before..

Absolutely zero chance this happened. Please make stories a bit more realistic going forward

 

[offstump]

Good post.

This is definitely the reality in North America. I am not sure about Europe but I am guessing it is not much different.

I can attest that the rate of Indian immigration to Canada has increased substantially over the last 5-10 years. They now make up the largest ethnic group entering the country. As for the colleges, many of these are diploma or certificate type institutions, and the Indians are entering the country with student visas while they study and then must have something worked out where they end up staying afterwards. It’s still much easier to get a Canadian PR and eventually a passport Vs US green card. I’m not sure what amount of foreign Indians make up the student population in top universities in Canada but I don’t think it’s as high as these other colleges.

Anecdotally speaking, you pretty much see Indians working everywhere from retail to banks but I haven’t seen the new crop in senior professional positions at large companies be it in the energy industry, financial or elsewhere. You definitely see engineer types in these places but not in the upper ranks. Tech might be a different story though.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Did I say anything wrong? LOL.

No need to get irritated.

All I said was other third world countries shouldn't try to emulate another third world country (i.e. India). There are other better role models.

Please see Ahsan17's post.

No matter how much you try to put India in the same league as Bangladesh, its not going to happen.

 

[Sachin136]

If it is good, why do Indians go abroad to study? Should they not stay in India and study then?

It can be good compared to Pakistan and Bangladesh (still quite subjective) but I was referring to quality of education compared to Europe and North America.

The vast majority of them just want to settle in a new country, and a degree is a relatively easy way to do that. Only a tiny percentage actually go to overseas universities because they care about the quality of education.

 

[JaDed]

Did I say anything wrong? LOL.

No need to get irritated.

All I said was other third world countries shouldn't try to emulate another third world country (i.e. India). There are other better role models.

Please see Ahsan17's post.

I was just making sure I hope they knew how special you were because you were “Special” enough to judge them as not “special”.
Because I’m sure they were looking for your special validation.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

The vast majority of them just want to settle in a new country, and a degree is a relatively easy way to do that. Only a tiny percentage actually go to overseas universities because they care about the quality of education.

It’s all inter tied tho. They are going abroad due to economy which is built upon the back of a great education system

 

[amax]

Thats quite impressive.

not that impressive when you sort out for per paper citations (sign of quality of pubs). India has by far the lowest per paper citations of high research producing countries, even lesser than Pakistan and Iran. So lot of indian rankings jump is based on quantity rather than quality. That is not to say India doesnt have world class centers of excellence. I know two guys who are PHD from IIT madras directly hired as Assistant professors in reputable European Universities. india simply has many faces when it comes to everything, some are inspiring stories of a developing countries others not much.

 

[ahsan17]

No matter how much you try to put India in the same league as Bangladesh, its not going to happen.

Curious in what ways you think India is so far ahead of Bangladesh?

 

[JaDed]

I have to agree on Canada taking loads of Indians after their PM opened the immigration.

I have countless times tried to reason with family and acquaintances from North India as to not spend money in Canada for masters but it seems to no end because of some weird Canadian dream of Punjabis/Haryanvis.

I have found South Indian friends of mine to be more reciprocating when I tell them its worth getting Masters in US, and then if needed move to Canada(which almost everyone I know regretted), Masters in US even in state institutions is so much better than Canada.

Hopefully once this trend ends and they see how Canada doesn’t really have the tech or resources for white collar jobs they would realize the same, the tech used in RBC is not even as good as Hdfc, less said about BMO the better.

It does seem to me though Canada is what UK was 10-14 years ago with Masters/Bachelor students, it was just a place for students who couldn't get placed in India after Bachelors to go and do masters in and even back then if the top student wanted to do his masters he/she would chose USA.. or just take a job in hand but not go to Uk/Canada.

Canada is good for blue collar jobs and hope it can create a functional economy but it needs to get a better immigration system.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I have to agree on Canada taking loads of Indians after their PM opened the immigration.

I have countless times tried to reason with family and acquaintances from North India as to not spend money in Canada for masters but it seems to no end because of some weird Canadian dream of Punjabis/Haryanvis.

I have found South Indian friends of mine to be more reciprocating when I tell them its worth getting Masters in US, and then if needed move to Canada(which almost everyone I know regretted), Masters in US even in state institutions is so much better than Canada.

Hopefully once this trend ends and they see how Canada doesn’t really have the tech or resources for white collar jobs they would realize the same, the tech used in RBC is not even as good as Hdfc, less said about BMO the better.

It does seem to me though Canada is what UK was 10-14 years ago with Masters/Bachelor students, it was just a place for students who couldn't get placed in India after Bachelors to go and do masters in and even back then if the top student wanted to do his masters he/she would chose USA.. or just take a job in hand but not go to Uk/Canada.

Canada is good for blue collar jobs and hope it can create a functional economy but it needs to get a better immigration system.

You are looking at it the wrong way.

Canada appears to be better option for them because you are getting permanent residency as soon as you land and soon enough citizenship within a few years. On the other hand, I know people who did masters from Stanford and still at mercy of USCIS, H1B lottery etc etc. They could be killing it career wise in US but their status in the US hangs by a thread. It is especially bad for Indians. So I see appeal of getting citizenship rights for Canada in a few years. And if US is such a dream, then you can come on TN visa later anyway and still have better visa status than those Indians who are indefinitely on H1B.

These people going en-masse to Canada are going for the purpose of living in a western country and getting out of the third world life they live in india is their main aim.

 

[ahsan17]

I have to agree on Canada taking loads of Indians after their PM opened the immigration.

I have countless times tried to reason with family and acquaintances from North India as to not spend money in Canada for masters but it seems to no end because of some weird Canadian dream of Punjabis/Haryanvis.

I have found South Indian friends of mine to be more reciprocating when I tell them its worth getting Masters in US, and then if needed move to Canada(which almost everyone I know regretted), Masters in US even in state institutions is so much better than Canada.

Hopefully once this trend ends and they see how Canada doesn’t really have the tech or resources for white collar jobs they would realize the same, the tech used in RBC is not even as good as Hdfc, less said about BMO the better.

It does seem to me though Canada is what UK was 10-14 years ago with Masters/Bachelor students, it was just a place for students who couldn't get placed in India after Bachelors to go and do masters in and even back then if the top student wanted to do his masters he/she would chose USA.. or just take a job in hand but not go to Uk/Canada.

Canada is good for blue collar jobs and hope it can create a functional economy but it needs to get a better immigration system.

AFAIK from Indians that have moved back to India, while there are a ton of tech jobs, the massive population means it's extremely cut throat and finding a job is far more competitive than either in US or Canada.

Also I think you are giving too little credit to Canada. While compensation is not high like US it's probably the second best total compensation you can get in the whole world. 150-200k is nothing small. Add to the fact that you don't have to wait 150 years for a green card.

Your point on getting education in Canada and US is not something I can relate. Canada offers similar or better university education than US barring few universities like ivy league.

 

[sweep_shot]

No matter how much you try to put India in the same league as Bangladesh, its not going to happen.

Looks like you didn't understand the context and purpose of this thread.

All I said was Bangladesh and other nearby third world countries should emulate (if they really have to) developed countries instead of a third world country like India.

Are you saying India is not a third world country? Do you think Indian education system is the best in the world?

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

AFAIK from Indians that have moved back to India, while there are a ton of tech jobs, the massive population means it's extremely cut throat and finding a job is far more competitive than either in US or Canada.

Also I think you are giving too little credit to Canada. While compensation is not high like US it's probably the second best total compensation you can get in the whole world. 150-200k is nothing small. Add to the fact that you don't have to wait 150 years for a green card.

Your point on getting education in Canada and US is not something I can relate. Canada offers similar or better university education than US barring few universities like ivy league.

His point about education standards between Us and Canada is actually the strongest points. Canadian universities are far behind and UofT, McGill wouldn’t even compare to top 50 US

 

[ahsan17]

His point about education standards between Us and Canada is actually the strongest points. Canadian universities are far behind and UofT, McGill wouldn’t even compare to top 50 US

U of T regularly breaks into top 20 global rankings and McGill in top 50. But the rankings are based on a mix of research, education, endowment and a few other factors. For masters, the likes of U of T, McGill and Waterloo are as good or better than nearly all US universities barring the ivy league and top 10 ones - which themselves are very expensive and hard to get into. It certainly doesn't hold for state universities.

 

[JaDed]

U of T regularly breaks into top 20 global rankings and McGill in top 50. But the rankings are based on a mix of research, education, endowment and a few other factors. For masters, the likes of U of T, McGill and Waterloo are as good or better than nearly all US universities barring the ivy league and top 10 ones - which themselves are very expensive and hard to get into. It certainly doesn't hold for state universities.

Most ranking are subjective wrt Canadian ones, example below , the don't feature even top 25.

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2022

But majority American ones always rank the same, American State Unis are so much more worth it compared to Canadian ones esp for Tech but it’s upto you though to believe what you want.

The other thing where American culture of entrepreneurship helps all these unis.

 

[Syed1]

U of T regularly breaks into top 20 global rankings and McGill in top 50. But the rankings are based on a mix of research, education, endowment and a few other factors. For masters, the likes of U of T, McGill and Waterloo are as good or better than nearly all US universities barring the ivy league and top 10 ones - which themselves are very expensive and hard to get into. It certainly doesn't hold for state universities.

I have engineering degrees from two out of the three universities you mentioned. I feel like they get their elevated ranking due to the number of international students and the prestige factor, plus how easily the graduates are able to secure jobs in the local market (again due to prestige factor compared to other unis in Canada). Quality of education was good but not mind blowing. Definitely can't compete with US universities.

 

[Syed1]

That being said the appetite for Canadian graduates in tech sector in the US is so massive that they are shipped off to California or Seattle/Austin by the truckloads every year. On top of that every major US tech firm has design centers in Canada and now the ones that don't are hiring remote workers located in Canada.

 

[sjahmed23]

That being said the appetite for Canadian graduates in tech sector in the US is so massive that they are shipped off to California or Seattle/Austin by the truckloads every year. On top of that every major US tech firm has design centers in Canada and now the ones that don't are hiring remote workers located in Canada.

There is no appetite for Canadian graduates in particular, there was a massive hiring spree in the tech sector driven by cheap interest rates and hyper growth expectations. Candidates were being hired from all over the US but the environment has changed significantly this year and I don't see tech boom happening again for another 10-15 years. Tech sector is going towards stagnation and we will see alot of these companies turn towards indian outsource sweat shops for cheaper services.

Imo besides tech (pre-2022), Canada is pretty bad for education and general career prospects. It is also pretty expensive to live there.

 

[sjahmed23]

Having studied and worked with both Pakistanis and Indians I feel Pakistani graduates are superior than Indians. Especially those who've done A levels from Pakistan, they are some of the smartest bunch. The only problem I've seen with Pakistanis is that they dont take their jobs as seriously as Indians, to whom their work is like worship.

Pakistan is neck and neck with India in quality of the medical school graduates, engineering and business graduates.

 

[ahsan17]

Having studied and worked with both Pakistanis and Indians I feel Pakistani graduates are superior than Indians. Especially those who've done A levels from Pakistan, they are some of the smartest bunch. The only problem I've seen with Pakistanis is that they dont take their jobs as seriously as Indians, to whom their work is like worship.

Pakistan is neck and neck with India in quality of the medical school graduates, engineering and business graduates.

Indians generally derive happiness from money and project this way of thinking onto others.

Pakistanis tend to go into a field more out of passion and less based on how much income it will generate. Not saying income doesn't matter but it's definitely less so than Indians. Indians are squarely focused on how much income they can generate from a career. There's positives and negatives to both approaches but having a more balanced life is generally a good thing. Eve after making that much money they will go out of their way to save $2.

The more interesting thing is the projection part, where Indians will think someone making 300k has significantly more value to society than someone 200k even though they may be prioritizing different things in life.

 

[ahsan17]

I have engineering degrees from two out of the three universities you mentioned. I feel like they get their elevated ranking due to the number of international students and the prestige factor, plus how easily the graduates are able to secure jobs in the local market (again due to prestige factor compared to other unis in Canada). Quality of education was good but not mind blowing. Definitely can't compete with US universities.

If one's goal is to live and work in the US then US universities will be better. If one's goal is to live and work in Canada then Canadian universities will be better. Outside the two countries there's not a lot separating them outside of the top 10 US universities. Waterloo and Toronto both have quite a strong reputation in the US as well when it comes to tech careers.

 

[Buffet]

10-15 years back, we used to hire 20-25 students each year directly from 4-5 IIT's to work in California and Seattle office. Some IIT's were located in remote areas without airport access. I don't know the situation now, but big hiring was based on how previous hires did and number of hires grew from there. They were top class hires who could be relied to work on system level codes in operating system and networking. Many of those hires have climbed up in ranks and extremely valuable for their companies.

It's actually extremely hard to hire for some jobs despite tens of thousands of students graduating from computer science in US and abroad. Level was simply not there. Recent years hiring is going to reverse big time. It has been unique situation where all companies felt forced to hire in big numbers due to irrational allocation of money in tech sector due to low interest rate. Hiring was very selective when companies were few thousands employees vs hundred thousands employees now.

When all said and done, most universities do a decent job of teaching. Now if you go to very selective universities then sure you are going to get higher quality students.

 

[Buffet]

Indians generally derive happiness from money and project this way of thinking onto others.

Pakistanis tend to go into a field more out of passion and less based on how much income it will generate. .

Wow, what a generalization. I know tons of Indians who are extremely passionate about their field.

 

[ahsan17]

Wow, what a generalization. I know tons of Indians who are extremely passionate about their field.

I am speaking strictly about software engineering and FOB Indians.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Having studied and worked with both Pakistanis and Indians I feel Pakistani graduates are superior than Indians. Especially those who've done A levels from Pakistan, they are some of the smartest bunch. The only problem I've seen with Pakistanis is that they dont take their jobs as seriously as Indians, to whom their work is like worship.

Pakistan is neck and neck with India in quality of the medical school graduates, engineering and business graduates.

In other words, Pakistanis are more talented while Indians are more hard working

 

[sjahmed23]

Indians generally derive happiness from money and project this way of thinking onto others.

Pakistanis tend to go into a field more out of passion and less based on how much income it will generate. Not saying income doesn't matter but it's definitely less so than Indians. Indians are squarely focused on how much income they can generate from a career. There's positives and negatives to both approaches but having a more balanced life is generally a good thing. Eve after making that much money they will go out of their way to save $2.

The more interesting thing is the projection part, where Indians will think someone making 300k has significantly more value to society than someone 200k even though they may be prioritizing different things in life.

In my opinion for many Indians it's not even about money but they lack leadership qualities. You will rarely see them think outside the box but they are extremely good at following directions and working under someone. This is why you have never heard of an Indian develop a programming language or a software product that is used widely despite so many indians in the tech field.

Whereas, Pakistanis will take more risks, some will go well some won't but they are not afraid to venture into unchartered territory.

 

[Sachin136]

In my opinion for many Indians it's not even about money but they lack leadership qualities. You will rarely see them think outside the box but they are extremely good at following directions and working under someone. This is why you have never heard of an Indian develop a programming language or a software product that is used widely despite so many indians in the tech field.

Whereas, Pakistanis will take more risks, some will go well some won't but they are not afraid to venture into unchartered territory.

There are tons of Indian graduate students, postdocs, and professors doing research in fields like computer science, mathematics, and physics at pretty much every renowned university in North America and Europe. Essentially all of their work is about thinking outside the box, developing creative solutions to open problems, etc.

As far as leadership qualities go, Indians are pretty much the only ethnic minority group in America to break the glass ceiling and propel into management and C-suite positions. This is despite the fact that "Asian Americans Are the Least Likely Group in the U.S. to Be Promoted to Management".

 

[JaDed]

I am speaking strictly about software engineering and FOB Indians.

So basically if middleclass/poor Indians use software engineering job to have a better life its an issue?

I can assure that these middleclass Indians will allow their children to be passionate about their fields but they don’t or didn’t have the privilege to venture out.

I said the same to you 2 years ago and I saw many Indians actually follow their passion and you will see the effect of compounding in the next 10 years.

 

[JaDed]

In my opinion for many Indians it's not even about money but they lack leadership qualities. You will rarely see them think outside the box but they are extremely good at following directions and working under someone. This is why you have never heard of an Indian develop a programming language or a software product that is used widely despite so many indians in the tech field.

Whereas, Pakistanis will take more risks, some will go well some won't but they are not afraid to venture into unchartered territory.

So basically only white or Jews are great at thinking outside the box as they have made almost all the programming languages.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

U of T regularly breaks into top 20 global rankings and McGill in top 50. But the rankings are based on a mix of research, education, endowment and a few other factors. For masters, the likes of U of T, McGill and Waterloo are as good or better than nearly all US universities barring the ivy league and top 10 ones - which themselves are very expensive and hard to get into. It certainly doesn't hold for state universities.

It’s not mate. I don’t really have a dog in the fight but I’ve been in the educational sector so have a decent idea. Whether you are purely focused on post grad employment and salary statistics OR research output and pedigree of professors; the US unis are far ahead

 

[RajBan]

Having studied and worked with both Pakistanis and Indians I feel Pakistani graduates are superior than Indians. Especially those who've done A levels from Pakistan, they are some of the smartest bunch. The only problem I've seen with Pakistanis is that they dont take their jobs as seriously as Indians, to whom their work is like worship.

Pakistan is neck and neck with India in quality of the medical school graduates, engineering and business graduates.

How is Pakistan neck and neck of Pakistani graduates are superior than Indian counterparts? Surely Pakistan schools and education institutions has to be better than Indian ones if the graduates are better.

 

[sjahmed23]

There are tons of Indian graduate students, postdocs, and professors doing research in fields like computer science, mathematics, and physics at pretty much every renowned university in North America and Europe. Essentially all of their work is about thinking outside the box, developing creative solutions to open problems, etc.

As far as leadership qualities go, Indians are pretty much the only ethnic minority group in America to break the glass ceiling and propel into management and C-suite positions. This is despite the fact that "Asian Americans Are the Least Likely Group in the U.S. to Be Promoted to Management".

You missed my point. All the institutions you mentioned where Indians work were created by someone else. If tomorrow all the europeans and americans magically disappeared, what will the Indians do? Work for chinese and russians and view that as an achievement of their people.