What can Pakistan learn from the Indian education system?

[cricketjoshila]

In my opinion for many Indians it's not even about money but they lack leadership qualities. You will rarely see them think outside the box but they are extremely good at following directions and working under someone. This is why you have never heard of an Indian develop a programming language or a software product that is used widely despite so many indians in the tech field.

Whereas, Pakistanis will take more risks, some will go well some won't but they are not afraid to venture into unchartered territory.

So how many billion dollar businesses, unicorns have Pakistanis built?

How many Pakistanis are in leadership position in fortune 500 companies?

How many Pakistanis have been in a leadership role in other countries?

The usual excuses of pakistanis begin to flow like,

Pakistanis do things for passion, Indians for money. Indians follow directions etc etc.

All this doesn't hide that Indians are far more successful than pakistanis.

 

[sjahmed23]

So how many billion dollar businesses, unicorns have Pakistanis built?

How many Pakistanis are in leadership position in fortune 500 companies?

How many Pakistanis have been in a leadership role in other countries?

The usual excuses of pakistanis begin to flow like,

Pakistanis do things for passion, Indians for money. Indians follow directions etc etc.

All this doesn't hide that Indians are far more successful than pakistanis.

Pakistan is the size of one Indian state. If you want to pat yourself on the back for being better than Pakistan then I rest my case. Relatively speaking, for being a nation of 1.6 billion people, who has not been part of any war (including the cold war) for 50+ years you have very little to show for. Working for other countries companies and industries is not an achievement for India.

 

[rickroll]

10-15 years back, we used to hire 20-25 students each year directly from 4-5 IIT's to work in California and Seattle office. Some IIT's were located in remote areas without airport access. I don't know the situation now, but big hiring was based on how previous hires did and number of hires grew from there. They were top class hires who could be relied to work on system level codes in operating system and networking. Many of those hires have climbed up in ranks and extremely valuable for their companies.

It's actually extremely hard to hire for some jobs despite tens of thousands of students graduating from computer science in US and abroad. Level was simply not there. Recent years hiring is going to reverse big time. It has been unique situation where all companies felt forced to hire in big numbers due to irrational allocation of money in tech sector due to low interest rate. Hiring was very selective when companies were few thousands employees vs hundred thousands employees now.

When all said and done, most universities do a decent job of teaching. Now if you go to very selective universities then sure you are going to get higher quality students.

Good point!

 

[rickroll]

In my opinion for many Indians it's not even about money but they lack leadership qualities. You will rarely see them think outside the box but they are extremely good at following directions and working under someone. This is why you have never heard of an Indian develop a programming language or a software product that is used widely despite so many indians in the tech field.

Whereas, Pakistanis will take more risks, some will go well some won't but they are not afraid to venture into unchartered territory.

I'm among the many hoping for Pakistan to become much better in education but even for me this sounds like a bad generalization and inaccurate. Indians may have many negative attributes as a society/nation/people but credit needs to be given where due even for an "enemy" nation. They have done something good as a resource constrained developing nation when it comes to education and knowledge capital. Other resource constrained South Asian nations can take a leaf out of their book that can be emulated.

US tech industry is led by so many Indians these days growing multi-billion dollar companies. The venture capital and private equity landscape in the US has so many Indians sitting in boards of companies. Investment banks and tier 1 MBB consulting firms (Mckinsey, Bain, BCG) are led by many Indian origin partners. Overlooking all of this and saying "they lack leadership qualities" is either ignorance or hate driven.

One argument here seems to be "why emulate India when we rather emulate US/UK/EU". Those are resource rich nations to begin with and their model is not immediately applicable to resource constrained developing nations for building knowledge capital through education. Overlooking this obvious fact and stressing that South Asian nations rather emulate US/UK/EU is either due to ignorance or pointless ego driven lack of acknowledgement of the accomplishment of an enemy nation.

It is true that Indians are going on a downward spiral in their hate driven government policies that also spirals to negative cultural effects. That is a perfect example for Pakistan (and other South Asian nations) for what NOT to do. At the same time, do give credit where it is due (education and knowledge capital) so that it can be emulated.

 

[Buffet]

I'm among the many hoping for Pakistan to become much better in education but even for me this sounds like a bad generalization and inaccurate. Indians may have many negative attributes as a society/nation/people but credit needs to be given where due even for an "enemy" nation. They have done something good as a resource constrained developing nation when it comes to education and knowledge capital. Other resource constrained South Asian nations can take a leaf out of their book that can be emulated.

US tech industry is led by so many Indians these days growing multi-billion dollar companies. The venture capital and private equity landscape in the US has so many Indians sitting in boards of companies. Investment banks and tier 1 MBB consulting firms (Mckinsey, Bain, BCG) are led by many Indian origin partners. Overlooking all of this and saying "they lack leadership qualities" is either ignorance or hate driven.

One argument here seems to be "why emulate India when we rather emulate US/UK/EU". Those are resource rich nations to begin with and their model is not immediately applicable to resource constrained developing nations for building knowledge capital through education. Overlooking this obvious fact and stressing that South Asian nations rather emulate US/UK/EU is either due to ignorance or pointless ego driven lack of acknowledgement of the accomplishment of an enemy nation.

It is true that Indians are going on a downward spiral in their hate driven government policies that also spirals to negative cultural effects. That is a perfect example for Pakistan (and other South Asian nations) for what NOT to do. At the same time, do give credit where it is due (education and knowledge capital) so that it can be emulated.

Yah, I don't think Indians lack leadership skills when compared to others.

Some top names heading companies comes to my mind,

Raj - FeDex
Indra - Pepsi
Laxman - Starbucks
Vivek - Albertsons
Ajaypal - Master Card
Sundar - Alphabet
Satya - Microsoft
Shatanu - Adobe
Arvind - IBM
Sanjay - Micron
Nikesh - Paul Alto
Jayshree - Arista Network
...
....

Most companies are 10B plus revenue and competition for CEO post is intense. In IT, Indian presence is huge so not surprising to see Indians rising in ranks.

But Pepsi, Fedex, Starbucks, Master card, Albertsons etc are not in Computer Science. They are giant companies and they won't put some one without leadership on top. I have interacted with some names listed above.. They are very good leaders. Even in IT, you are not going to be CEO of 10-100B revenue companies without having leadership skills.

If argument is that India has not produced large global companies in India then that's a different argument. It has mostly to do with what resource and system were available in India. I do think it's changing fast. It won't surprise me to see some global names coming from India in the next 10-15 years. A very large amount has gone in Indian start ups. As long as government does not mess it up, it should create some global names in coming decades.

Anyway, caliber of people all around has similar distribution curve. It's up to government to set up high quality education environment and then provide environment for businesses. US has done it better than others and also has huge market so global giant companies are going to keep coming from US for decades.

I am very sure that once Pakistan's situation gets stable and if government creates a good situation , we may observe rapid changes there as well. It's a multi decade process though. Distribution curve of people are not much different in any part of the world when it comes to potential. You just need to have system to convert potential to reality.

 

[rickroll]

Yah, I don't think Indians lack leadership skills when compared to others.

Some top names heading companies comes to my mind,

Raj - FeDex
Indra - Pepsi
Laxman - Starbucks
Vivek - Albertsons
Ajaypal - Master Card
Sundar - Alphabet
Satya - Microsoft
Shatanu - Adobe
Arvind - IBM
Sanjay - Micron
Nikesh - Paul Alto
Jayshree - Arista Network
...
....

Most companies are 10B plus revenue and competition for CEO post is intense. In IT, Indian presence is huge so not surprising to see Indians rising in ranks.

But Pepsi, Fedex, Starbucks, Master card, Albertsons etc are not in Computer Science. They are giant companies and they won't put some one without leadership on top. I have interacted with some names listed above.. They are very good leaders. Even in IT, you are not going to be CEO of 10-100B revenue companies without having leadership skills.

If argument is that India has not produced large global companies in India then that's a different argument. It has mostly to do with what resource and system were available in India. I do think it's changing fast. It won't surprise me to see some global names coming from India in the next 10-15 years. A very large amount has gone in Indian start ups. As long as government does not mess it up, it should create some global names in coming decades.

Anyway, caliber of people all around has similar distribution curve. It's up to government to set up high quality education environment and then provide environment for businesses. US has done it better than others and also has huge market so global giant companies are going to keep coming from US for decades.

I am very sure that once Pakistan's situation gets stable and if government creates a good situation , we may observe rapid changes there as well. It's a multi decade process though. Distribution curve of people are not much different in any part of the world when it comes to potential. You just need to have system to convert potential to reality.

Good points bhai and I like the nuanced differentiation between tech and non-tech CEO roles.

I feel creating good knowledge capital (business leadership, education etc) is an entity like a machine with raw material inputs. The raw materials here are people and the quality of this is the same throughout the world. Given any population set from any part of the world, you roughly have similar percentage of people that have good leadership traits, good fighting skills, good building/engineering skills, good artistic skills, etc. Saying "mY grOUp hAS bEtteR LeaDERs tHAn yoUR grOUp" just by nature reeks of stupidity and insecurity whether it is said by Pakistanis or Indians.

The actual comparison here is between the machines (education system set up by each country) turning these raw materials into finished products. The quality of the finished products here depends on the quality of the machines and not on the quality of the raw materials (people). I think some people in this thread are failing to realize that and feel their ego is hurt when looking at the output from the Indians. I believe Pakistanis can go toe to toe and compete with Indians in tech innovation or business leadership. But are Pakistanis given this fair chance by their education system though? Sadly that does not seem to be the case.

One big thing I wonder is, which India should Pakistan try to emulate in this? The cow belt North India or the more successful South India? Please refer the youtube discussion from this thread I just created highlighting these differences -- http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...us-South-India-(Why-is-South-so-much-better-)

I for one believe, Pakistan is better off looking at the Southern states of India as a good example and ignore the religious hatred driven North India that also seems to lack in its education systems.

 

[Buffet]

Good points bhai and I like the nuanced differentiation between tech and non-tech CEO roles.

I feel creating good knowledge capital (business leadership, education etc) is an entity like a machine with raw material inputs. The raw materials here are people and the quality of this is the same throughout the world. Given any population set from any part of the world, you roughly have similar percentage of people that have good leadership traits, good fighting skills, good building/engineering skills, good artistic skills, etc. Saying "mY grOUp hAS bEtteR LeaDERs tHAn yoUR grOUp" just by nature reeks of stupidity and insecurity whether it is said by Pakistanis or Indians.

The actual comparison here is between the machines (education system set up by each country) turning these raw materials into finished products. The quality of the finished products here depends on the quality of the machines and not on the quality of the raw materials (people). I think some people in this thread are failing to realize that and feel their ego is hurt when looking at the output from the Indians. I believe Pakistanis can go toe to toe and compete with Indians in tech innovation or business leadership. But are Pakistanis given this fair chance by their education system though? Sadly that does not seem to be the case.

One big thing I wonder is, which India should Pakistan try to emulate in this? The cow belt North India or the more successful South India? Please refer the youtube discussion from this thread I just created highlighting these differences -- http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...us-South-India-(Why-is-South-so-much-better-)

I for one believe, Pakistan is better off looking at the Southern states of India as a good example and ignore the religious hatred driven North India that also seems to lack in its education systems.

While doing some work , I was digging on out of school data many moons back. I shared some observation which was relevant for Pakistan in this thread.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...school-who-should-be-attending-Primary-school

Pakistan's problem is very basic. Just need to provide base first. Such a large population never gets even a chance in their life. Education is the biggest equalizer and it's not fault of child to be born in certain region or certain families. You can't have a situation where 25-30% elementary aged kids are out of school. Pakistan needs to focus on this urgently. Families with money will always provide advantage to their kids, but 25-30% not getting even elementary education is a huge red flag for any society. So many bright brains are simply not even getting chance.

Once that convers then set up merit based education institutes where you start sucking up brain power of country and put them on fast track where they can be used. As we both said, distribution curve is same everywhere. There should be a system to educate top, middle and lower trier students as best as you can. Top tier students will first work for others, but eventually they will start creating an ecosystem and it becomes a self feeding cycle. There is no need to even reinvent the wheel. Just copy the best practices from all around the world and as you said may be copy some from India as India and Pakistan have similarities.

 

[Buffet]

I just looked at Unicef site,

---------------------


Currently, Pakistan has the world’s second-highest number of out-of-school children (OOSC) with an estimated 22.8 million children aged 5-16 not attending school, representing 44 per cent of the total population in this age group

https://www.unicef.org/pakistan/education

-------------------



https://www.unicef.org/rosa/media/1306/file/Educate All Girls and Boys in South Asia.pdf

-----------------------

Above map shows a huge huge problem. I rarely see people talking about it, but this should be the number one priority for country. You can't have 30-40% of some subset not attending elementary school. That's a disaster.

If comparison with India makes it hard then ignore India. Just look at other countries in region. No one has problem like Pakistan and Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a bit different case, but Pakistan had government and had control over country. This should be focus for everyone in Pakistan. Kids are our next generation.

In my opinion, all talks about CEO, leadership, IT etc is secondary. If anything just copy India here.

India and Pakistan are not so different. There should be no reason for Pakistan to have 30% out of school kids when India has 1%. I will start from here and then build on that. It will take few decades, but it's doable.

 

[Buffet]

All parties and even army should be judged by this. I am lumping army here because they have lots of control over what gets done in Pakistan. This should be the single largest issue. Other things will follow.

 

[sjahmed23]

I'm among the many hoping for Pakistan to become much better in education but even for me this sounds like a bad generalization and inaccurate. Indians may have many negative attributes as a society/nation/people but credit needs to be given where due even for an "enemy" nation. They have done something good as a resource constrained developing nation when it comes to education and knowledge capital. Other resource constrained South Asian nations can take a leaf out of their book that can be emulated.

US tech industry is led by so many Indians these days growing multi-billion dollar companies. The venture capital and private equity landscape in the US has so many Indians sitting in boards of companies. Investment banks and tier 1 MBB consulting firms (Mckinsey, Bain, BCG) are led by many Indian origin partners. Overlooking all of this and saying "they lack leadership qualities" is either ignorance or hate driven.

One argument here seems to be "why emulate India when we rather emulate US/UK/EU". Those are resource rich nations to begin with and their model is not immediately applicable to resource constrained developing nations for building knowledge capital through education. Overlooking this obvious fact and stressing that South Asian nations rather emulate US/UK/EU is either due to ignorance or pointless ego driven lack of acknowledgement of the accomplishment of an enemy nation.

It is true that Indians are going on a downward spiral in their hate driven government policies that also spirals to negative cultural effects. That is a perfect example for Pakistan (and other South Asian nations) for what NOT to do. At the same time, do give credit where it is due (education and knowledge capital) so that it can be emulated.

Good points but I am still not convinced that Indian education model should be emulated simply because it helped alot of Indians move abroad to get education in western universities and settled there. How does that help India, doesn't this just prove that Indian system too has problems because it is unable to retain it's best and brightest? Why should Pakistan emulate India, but why not South Korea, Japan and other south east asian countries that have a higher gdp per capita than India? Doesn't their model help their nation more by retaining talented people who go on to build house hold brands like Samsung, Hyundai, Sony, Toyota, etc.. What brand has India launched in the last 30 years if all it's policies and knowledge capital is so great like you said?

Climbing up the corporate ladder is difficult, but not impossible if there is already a structure in place, not to mention many of the decisions are made by the board. Indians do turnout to be decent managers because of their passive nature, this helps them stay in the good books of many working with them I guess. But creating something from scratch and scaling that requires more and you hardly see that coming from that part of the world.

 

[Buffet]

Good points but I am still not convinced that Indian education model should be emulated simply because it helped alot of Indians move abroad to get education in western universities and settled there. How does that help India, doesn't this just prove that Indian system too has problems because it is unable to retain it's best and brightest? Why should Pakistan emulate India, but why not South Korea, Japan and other south east asian countries that have a higher gdp per capita than India? Doesn't their model help their nation more by retaining talented people who go on to build house hold brands like Samsung, Hyundai, Sony, Toyota, etc.. What brand has India launched in the last 30 years if all it's policies and knowledge capital is so great like you said?

Climbing up the corporate ladder is difficult, but not impossible if there is already a structure in place, not to mention many of the decisions are made by the board. Indians do turnout to be decent managers because of their passive nature, this helps them stay in the good books of many working with them I guess. But creating something from scratch and scaling that requires more and you hardly see that coming from that part of the world.

It actually helps India.

Tens of billions of capital allocation is in hands of Indian origin CEO, are they going to pick India or Bangladesh to allocate capital? I am just using Bangladesh, you can pick any country which will provide comparable options.

For example - Microsoft employed 8,000 in India. Same with Google. Same with Adobe.

The work performed by some centers in India are exactly the same as what gets done in Seattle or California, but it was not always the case. India used to get mostly maintenance work or support work. Now slowly but surely they have moved up in value chain. Tons of Indians being decision maker played a huge part here. IN fact, if you look at investment going in IT start ups in the last 4-5 years, it's a very large scale where giant tech companies are putting money.

If it does not convince you, imagine Microsoft, Google and bunch of others were headed by a Pakistani. Don't you think it would have made it easier to get capital allocated to Pakistan? Now you can say that Pakistan does not have educated manpower to support Microsoft, Google etc to do latest product development , but then how did India get those? It got it via having a basic education structure. Or you could say that Pakistan has enough educated base, but not getting the opportunities. If that's the case then Indian origin CEO's are surely helping India while ignoring Pakistan.

In short, it's the education which provided the base and its helping India.

If it still not convincing to you, IT exports from India crossed 150B. Where this 150B is coming from? It's coming due to having trained manpower, but having large number of decision makers in IT giants makes it drastically easier. It's just self feeding cycle, but everything comes from educated base.

 

[Buffet]

Coming back to main topic,

It's illogical to talk about copying Korea or Japan when Pakistan is not even doing the basic stuff. For god sake, 30-40% primary school aged kids being out of school in Pakistan. It's really bad situation.


India has 1% out of school kids. It shouldn't be hard to copy because socioeconomic background of students will be roughly same in India and Pakistan. Indian families face the same challenge and if they have 1% out of school kids then Pakistan can surely learn and do the same. Forget India, even other south Asian countries are not having 25-30% kids out of school. It's easier to see how countries with similar backgrounds did it and copy.

 

[rickroll]

Good points but I am still not convinced that Indian education model should be emulated simply because it helped alot of Indians move abroad to get education in western universities and settled there. How does that help India, doesn't this just prove that Indian system too has problems because it is unable to retain it's best and brightest? Why should Pakistan emulate India, but why not South Korea, Japan and other south east asian countries that have a higher gdp per capita than India? Doesn't their model help their nation more by retaining talented people who go on to build house hold brands like Samsung, Hyundai, Sony, Toyota, etc.. What brand has India launched in the last 30 years if all it's policies and knowledge capital is so great like you said?

Climbing up the corporate ladder is difficult, but not impossible if there is already a structure in place, not to mention many of the decisions are made by the board. Indians do turnout to be decent managers because of their passive nature, this helps them stay in the good books of many working with them I guess. But creating something from scratch and scaling that requires more and you hardly see that coming from that part of the world.

Fair questions about why not emulate South Korea, Japan and other south east asian countries. I did not imply that Indian education system is perfect (far from it). But it is a few levels above Pakistan and that is the reality.

My point - Pakistan should emulate India for now until they become a few levels better and then aspire for developed country models.

Why I say this - This is an attainable goal especially for complex endeavors like redesigning a country's education system. The concept here is to walk before you can run, and before you can fly. Pakistan is crawling right now, India is sort of speed walking and the countries you mention (US, UK, EU, Japan, South Korea) are all flying or semi-flying. It is unrealistic for a resource constrained developing nation to aspire to fly when it is currently crawling. If you impose such a lofty goal then it will be doomed for failure (take into account current inefficient systems, corruption, zero execution know-how). Saying "let's follow developed country model now" sounds great from a marketing or political perspective but it will only waste what precious little resources what Pakistan has. Again ... walk first, then run, and then fly.


Indians do turnout to be decent managers because of their passive nature, this helps them stay in the good books of many working with them I guess. -- C'mon bhai, this is not a good thing to say (ludicrous if I can be honest). Are we to really say that people running companies worth 100s of Billions in USD are yes men? Are we to say that people running some of the biggest investment funds in the financial world now and sitting on boards of these big companies are yes men? Who are the actual leaders? People who do not emphasize education and are corner store owners or taxi cab owners because they have more "jazba"?

Not all of those Indian CEOs are from corporate ladders. Forget people climbing corporate ladders, there are many of their CEOs who have started their own companies in silicon valley and employing 100s of people. Is that not a testament for leadership or are we to split hairs and find faults in those as well to make ourselves feel better? Please see this for reference -- https://www.siliconindia.com/magazi...naged-by-Indians-in-the-US-WGAR554925450.html

I'm not sure where you live but do you know how bad many silicon valley Pakistanis wish there are initiatives like TiE (The Indus Entrepreneurs) and Silicon India to grow startups in the tech ecosystem? They have created a robust support network to succeed as entrepreneurs and business leaders that other South Asian nations can currently only dream of.

Acknowledging what little good things the Indians have done in the spirit of matching/exceeding that in the future is the correct thing to do. Trying to trivialize them while clutching at straws to find accomplishments only makes it seem like insecurity and jealousy. I would prefer to keep things realistic and talk about avenues for Pakistan to grow instead of boombastic statements or picking faults at an adversary - my humble pov.

 

[rickroll]

It actually helps India.

Tens of billions of capital allocation is in hands of Indian origin CEO, are they going to pick India or Bangladesh to allocate capital? I am just using Bangladesh, you can pick any country which will provide comparable options.

For example - Microsoft employed 8,000 in India. Same with Google. Same with Adobe.

The work performed by some centers in India are exactly the same as what gets done in Seattle or California, but it was not always the case. India used to get mostly maintenance work or support work. Now slowly but surely they have moved up in value chain. Tons of Indians being decision maker played a huge part here. IN fact, if you look at investment going in IT start ups in the last 4-5 years, it's a very large scale where giant tech companies are putting money.

If it does not convince you, imagine Microsoft, Google and bunch of others were headed by a Pakistani. Don't you think it would have made it easier to get capital allocated to Pakistan? Now you can say that Pakistan does not have educated manpower to support Microsoft, Google etc to do latest product development , but then how did India get those? It got it via having a basic education structure. Or you could say that Pakistan has enough educated base, but not getting the opportunities. If that's the case then Indian origin CEO's are surely helping India while ignoring Pakistan.

In short, it's the education which provided the base and its helping India.

If it still not convincing to you, IT exports from India crossed 150B. Where this 150B is coming from? It's coming due to having trained manpower, but having large number of decision makers in IT giants makes it drastically easier. It's just self feeding cycle, but everything comes from educated base.

This is a fantastic point and not many people seem to grasp the power of this. Within tech and now going to other industries too, the Indian CEOs and high level executives wield immense financial power to direct new development centers, which can create more employment opportunities, boost economies at local level, create education opportunities for next generation - long term benefits beyond just the short term benefits of creating more jobs.

I also recall in early 2000s jobs in Indian centers were Q&A, call center, and support work. Now there are serious product and market launch decisions being taken from the Indian teams. I have seen them lead the show when it comes to new business initiatives and product launches. Same is the case in Investment Banks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley etc, their Indian teams being important parts of many core initiatives. In a way this is not surprising because they have had 20+ years of back office work evolving into front office work.

Usual feel good retort from some here - "If this is the case then how come there are no Indian products" - True, they are not there yet and they are still in the nascent stages of "Flying". Their industry was ...
1. "Crawling" in early 2000s with back office work
2. "Walking" with product development work,
3. "Running" with product launch and business strategy work
4. "Semi flying" now with how grown products catering to Indian market (think Ola, FlipKart, Swiggy that I hear from Indian colleagues).

Only a question of more years before they can "fully fly" to launch home grown products that have global impacts. Picking faults at them and asking why aren't they "flying" yet may give a feel good factor especially when we want to hide the fact that Pakistan is not even "Crawling" (back office work) yet.

Big negative for India - All of the above being said, their bureaucracy is horrible. There is a saying among business circles that in developed countries businesses succeed because of the government but in India businesses succeed in spite of the government. This is the one area in the context of education systems Pakistan should not follow India but is sadly doing so.

 

[RajBan]

This is a wrong notion that India has not got any home grown product. There are tons of examples in e-commerce and fintech actually. Infact fintech in India is now probably the best in the world, going neck and neck with Singapore which has been the pioneer in this space.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan is the size of one Indian state. If you want to pat yourself on the back for being better than Pakistan then I rest my case. Relatively speaking, for being a nation of 1.6 billion people, who has not been part of any war (including the cold war) for 50+ years you have very little to show for. Working for other countries companies and industries is not an achievement for India.

Dont shift goal posts.

You said that Indians are yes men or follow orders and don't have leadership qualities while Pakistanis are risk takers. Now please prove that.

India has fought 4 wars in last 50 years. What are you on about?

Now please come back to the topic on how Indians are yes men, and lack leadership while Pakistanis are risk takers etc.

 

[sjahmed23]

This is a fantastic point and not many people seem to grasp the power of this. Within tech and now going to other industries too, the Indian CEOs and high level executives wield immense financial power to direct new development centers, which can create more employment opportunities, boost economies at local level, create education opportunities for next generation - long term benefits beyond just the short term benefits of creating more jobs.

I also recall in early 2000s jobs in Indian centers were Q&A, call center, and support work. Now there are serious product and market launch decisions being taken from the Indian teams. I have seen them lead the show when it comes to new business initiatives and product launches. Same is the case in Investment Banks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley etc, their Indian teams being important parts of many core initiatives. In a way this is not surprising because they have had 20+ years of back office work evolving into front office work.

Usual feel good retort from some here - "If this is the case then how come there are no Indian products" - True, they are not there yet and they are still in the nascent stages of "Flying". Their industry was ...
1. "Crawling" in early 2000s with back office work
2. "Walking" with product development work,
3. "Running" with product launch and business strategy work
4. "Semi flying" now with how grown products catering to Indian market (think Ola, FlipKart, Swiggy that I hear from Indian colleagues).

Only a question of more years before they can "fully fly" to launch home grown products that have global impacts. Picking faults at them and asking why aren't they "flying" yet may give a feel good factor especially when we want to hide the fact that Pakistan is not even "Crawling" (back office work) yet.

Big negative for India - All of the above being said, their bureaucracy is horrible. There is a saying among business circles that in developed countries businesses succeed because of the government but in India businesses succeed in spite of the government. This is the one area in the context of education systems Pakistan should not follow India but is sadly doing so.

We've been hearing this walk-fly argument for 15 years and I think in another 15 years it will be the same. Again, providing profits and cost cutting through outsourcing only benefits American companies and share holders. They still control the business expertise and tell Indians what buttons to press.

Pakistan should not go the Indian way of exporting cheap workforce. It is unsustainable in addition, there are already 1.6 billion people who are in line to escape a shining nation. We need to stablize ourselves first, take care of our neighbors who have been destablizing us for 40+ years, before that all of this is wishful thinking.

 

[sjahmed23]

Dont shift goal posts.

You said that Indians are yes men or follow orders and don't have leadership qualities while Pakistanis are risk takers. Now please prove that.

India has fought 4 wars in last 50 years. What are you on about?

Now please come back to the topic on how Indians are yes men, and lack leadership while Pakistanis are risk takers etc.

What wars were they? I am not talking about scrimmages.

 

[rickroll]

This is a fantastic point and not many people seem to grasp the power of this. Within tech and now going to other industries too, the Indian CEOs and high level executives wield immense financial power to direct new development centers, which can create more employment opportunities, boost economies at local level, create education opportunities for next generation - long term benefits beyond just the short term benefits of creating more jobs.

I also recall in early 2000s jobs in Indian centers were Q&A, call center, and support work. Now there are serious product and market launch decisions being taken from the Indian teams. I have seen them lead the show when it comes to new business initiatives and product launches. Same is the case in Investment Banks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley etc, their Indian teams being important parts of many core initiatives. In a way this is not surprising because they have had 20+ years of back office work evolving into front office work.

Usual feel good retort from some here - "If this is the case then how come there are no Indian products" - True, they are not there yet and they are still in the nascent stages of "Flying". Their industry was ...
1. "Crawling" in early 2000s with back office work
2. "Walking" with product development work,
3. "Running" with product launch and business strategy work
4. "Semi flying" now with how grown products catering to Indian market (think Ola, FlipKart, Swiggy that I hear from Indian colleagues).

Only a question of more years before they can "fully fly" to launch home grown products that have global impacts. Picking faults at them and asking why aren't they "flying" yet may give a feel good factor especially when we want to hide the fact that Pakistan is not even "Crawling" (back office work) yet.

Big negative for India - All of the above being said, their bureaucracy is horrible. There is a saying among business circles that in developed countries businesses succeed because of the government but in India businesses succeed in spite of the government. This is the one area in the context of education systems Pakistan should not follow India but is sadly doing so.

We've been hearing this walk-fly argument for 15 years and I think in another 15 years it will be the same. Again, providing profits and cost cutting through outsourcing only benefits American companies and share holders. They still control the business expertise and tell Indians what buttons to press.

Pakistan should not go the Indian way of exporting cheap workforce. It is unsustainable in addition, there are already 1.6 billion people who are in line to escape a shining nation. We need to stablize ourselves first, take care of our neighbors who have been destablizing us for 40+ years, before that all of this is wishful thinking.

I have already shown real world tangible examples of their crawl-walk-run-fly model. If you keep ignoring those and think they are winning business only as a cheap outsourcer or BPO these days then you are either in denial or have your ego being hurt by looking at the truth.

"We need to stablize ourselves first, take care of our neighbors who have been destablizing us for 40+ years, before that all of this is wishful thinking." - What does this mean? Invest more into military at the expense of education? We all know where this has led to over the years? No I do not mean NOT invest in military (to all of you who intend to jump in with "how dare you not invest in military"). My point is at least start giving priorities for education.

Giving priority for education also does not mean bombastic political statements like "let's transform Pakistan's education into US model within 5 years". These will only trigger the masses and will only help the Shariffs and Bhuttos of the world to funnel more millions into their pockets through yet another unrealistic wasteful scheme. What Pakistan needs is achievable step by step goals to improve education set up.

"It is unsustainable in addition, there are already 1.6 billion people who are in line to escape a shining nation." - Wrong. Pakistan does have the capability to compete against them with enough support to the education system, please do not underestimate Pakistan. Pakistan's labor costs are much cheaper than tier 1 or tier 2 cities of India. Pakistan has enough good English speaking educated labor force that is also willing to work hard given the right incentives and support. If this is unsustainable then Philippines would not be competing against India for cheaper BPO outsourcing, countries like Vietnam will not be competing against China as a cheaper manufacturing source. There - more real world examples to counter your assumption.

I have a feeling that no matter what facts are presented to you, your response is only centered around denial and some random insult directed at them without even bothering to look at the facts presented to you from both sides. The reality is that they are well into "running" and are aspiring to fly but Pakistan is not even at the "crawling" stage. BUT with enough support from education system Pakistan can compete against them first as a lower cost provider, then build up enough talent pool and move up the chain over time.

Your alternative of "let's just not compete against them but keep looking at some utopia" is an unrealistic recipe for disaster.

 

[sjahmed23]

I have already shown real world tangible examples of their crawl-walk-run-fly model. If you keep ignoring those and think they are winning business only as a cheap outsourcer or BPO these days then you are either in denial or have your ego being hurt by looking at the truth.

"We need to stablize ourselves first, take care of our neighbors who have been destablizing us for 40+ years, before that all of this is wishful thinking." - What does this mean? Invest more into military at the expense of education? We all know where this has led to over the years? No I do not mean NOT invest in military (to all of you who intend to jump in with "how dare you not invest in military"). My point is at least start giving priorities for education.

Giving priority for education also does not mean bombastic political statements like "let's transform Pakistan's education into US model within 5 years". These will only trigger the masses and will only help the Shariffs and Bhuttos of the world to funnel more millions into their pockets through yet another unrealistic wasteful scheme. What Pakistan needs is achievable step by step goals to improve education set up.

"It is unsustainable in addition, there are already 1.6 billion people who are in line to escape a shining nation." - Wrong. Pakistan does have the capability to compete against them with enough support to the education system, please do not underestimate Pakistan. Pakistan's labor costs are much cheaper than tier 1 or tier 2 cities of India. Pakistan has enough good English speaking educated labor force that is also willing to work hard given the right incentives and support. If this is unsustainable then Philippines would not be competing against India for cheaper BPO outsourcing, countries like Vietnam will not be competing against China as a cheaper manufacturing source. There - more real world examples to counter your assumption.

I have a feeling that no matter what facts are presented to you, your response is only centered around denial and some random insult directed at them without even bothering to look at the facts presented to you from both sides. The reality is that they are well into "running" and are aspiring to fly but Pakistan is not even at the "crawling" stage. BUT with enough support from education system Pakistan can compete against them first as a lower cost provider, then build up enough talent pool and move up the chain over time.

Your alternative of "let's just not compete against them but keep looking at some utopia" is an unrealistic recipe for disaster.

Pakistan is already competing with them. Had we not been involved in wars for 40 years we would be richer than them like we were before 9/11. Like I have repeatedly told you, Indian system is designed around only exporting cheap labor in IT. They will never build any product themselves that they can sell to rest of the world. We don't need to go that route as it is already saturated. We have better models we can follow which will yield results better for our country and not europeans or americans. I would rather look towards China, South Korea, Turkey, Malaysia and even Bangladesh as a model of success where these countries have homegrown technological and business know how and don't have to rely on sending their talented people abroad.

 

[rickroll]

Pakistan is already competing with them. Had we not been involved in wars for 40 years we would be richer than them like we were before 9/11. Like I have repeatedly told you, Indian system is designed around only exporting cheap labor in IT. They will never build any product themselves that they can sell to rest of the world. We don't need to go that route as it is already saturated. We have better models we can follow which will yield results better for our country and not europeans or americans. I would rather look towards China, South Korea, Turkey, Malaysia and even Bangladesh as a model of success where these countries have homegrown technological and business know how and don't have to rely on sending their talented people abroad.

Like I'm repeatedly telling you, this is not the case and your core assumption is wrong. They were competing on being cheapest back in early 2000s and have evolved since then. I have already given you real world examples of this yet you keep repeating this inaccurate data point over and over.

China, South Korea, and Malaysia are not relatable models for Pakistan given their pre-existing healthy economic base. Turkey has a better economic base and does not have Pakistan's English base so it is not relatable. Bangladesh model is relatable for manufacturing and yes Pakistan can follow that. But this alone cannot be relied since it is a manufacturing based economy that requires high capital expenditures. Pakistan needs a blend of Bangladesh and to a larger extent India's services based economy.

Pakistan is a country with cheaper human labor and strong English speaking base so boost through services based economy (that does not require massive initial capital expenditure) is the obvious choice. Seems to me that you just do not want to accept that the Indian services model is a good choice for Pakistan because of the word "India" in it. So you keep repeating wrong facts like "India is just a cheap outsourcer" (true only in early 2000s) or let's look at Malaysia/Turkey etc which are not even relatable for Pakistan.

 

[sjahmed23]

Just so you understand, I keep saying South Korea, China and Turkey again and again because these countries too got independence around the same time as India and Pakistan. They also have conflicts in their neighborhoods, they also had same type of poverty faced by India and Pakistan not too long ago. They are now able to compete with Americans in various different fields. Infact, some of the products coming out from these countries are better and cheaper. How come we don't see a samsung or huwawei or bayrakter coming from India? Didn't we all started crawling at the sametime?

If you want to be self reliant and self sustaining then you have to focus on building value added products in your country and making use of your talented folks, not shipping them off for others to exploit. Pakistan did this well from 50s to 80s before the wars in Afghanistan started. Because of these wars and threat to Pakistans soverignty from both east and west we got put in the tight spot. But I am optimistic that with the right leadership in place, Pakistan can be put back on track, the new technology can help us improve leaps and bounds very quickly with the right focus. We can continue to build our own products like JF-17 and export our fashion, arts and culture where our creativity can easily outshine anyone else in the region.

Before all of that, our big neighbor continues to create hurdles for us so we need to figure out what to do about them, it's not going to be easy but they need to be checked for us to grow.

 

[rickroll]

Just so you understand, I keep saying South Korea, China and Turkey again and again because these countries too got independence around the same time as India and Pakistan. They also have conflicts in their neighborhoods, they also had same type of poverty faced by India and Pakistan not too long ago. They are now able to compete with Americans in various different fields. Infact, some of the products coming out from these countries are better and cheaper. How come we don't see a samsung or huwawei or bayrakter coming from India? Didn't we all started crawling at the sametime?

If you want to be self reliant and self sustaining then you have to focus on building value added products in your country and making use of your talented folks, not shipping them off for others to exploit. Pakistan did this well from 50s to 80s before the wars in Afghanistan started. Because of these wars and threat to Pakistans soverignty from both east and west we got put in the tight spot. But I am optimistic that with the right leadership in place, Pakistan can be put back on track, the new technology can help us improve leaps and bounds very quickly with the right focus. We can continue to build our own products like JF-17 and export our fashion, arts and culture where our creativity can easily outshine anyone else in the region.

Before all of that, our big neighbor continues to create hurdles for us so we need to figure out what to do about them, it's not going to be easy but they need to be checked for us to grow.

Bhai, I understand that your heart is in the right place and why you are suggesting South Korea, China, and Turkey. But also understand that while they have some similarities, there are pretty big socio economic differences between them and Pakistan even though they attained independence at similar times. They either already had a better education focused society that needed the right impetus, or a less corrupt albeit authoritarian government (China, Singapore), more manageable population growth (Turkey, Malaysia, South Korea), or be fortunate with to have right investments from super powers coupling with free market capital structure to augment education system (South Korea).

Which countries had independence around 1947, strong English speaking base, corrupt and bureaucratic governance, high population growth, less room for making investments to get into capex heavy manufacturing, burdened by military spending due to hostile neighbors ....? Which countries had all of those that Pakistan has and yet built a better education system over the past few decades? Please keep your anti-India bias aside for a moment and answer me this objectively.

 

[sjahmed23]

Bhai if you could only keep your india bias out and understand what I am trying to explain then you will see why Indian system too has fundamental problems .

Pakistan has better models to follow once our border situation and fiscal situation improves. We did get ourselves in a mess from all the afghan wars but things are not terrible. We already have a system that produces good engineers, doctors and business leaders who move to other countries but need better governance so they stay in Pakistan and help Pakistan. Also we need to make our neighbors realize that creating problems for us will also create problems for them .

 

[rickroll]

Bhai if you could only keep your india bias out and understand what I am trying to explain then you will see why Indian system too has fundamental problems ��.

Pakistan has better models to follow once our border situation and fiscal situation improves. We did get ourselves in a mess from all the afghan wars but things are not terrible. We already have a system that produces good engineers, doctors and business leaders who move to other countries but need better governance so they stay in Pakistan and help Pakistan. Also we need to make our neighbors realize that creating problems for us will also create problems for them ��.

Oh man, seriously where do I even begin!! Let me try to pick apart and debunk your points here since it reeks of the usual "status quo is best" pov.

I'm trying to understand your model for education but it is plain unrealistic. I do not have any anti or pro India bias as you can infer from my posts. We may critique them for 90% of what India does but also need to give credit to them for the very few things they did get right.

"Pakistan has better models to follow once our border situation and fiscal situation improves." - This is just more utopia. We have been waiting for this to improve for 70+ years and nothing has and realistically nothing will. This is the status quo and neither nuclear armed side will budge. So what you are saying is that until this utopia arrives we should continue our emphasis on military and also only continue what we are doing now for education. This will ensure that status quo of relatively abysmal job opportunities for Pakistan's educated youth will prevail.

"Also we need to make our neighbors realize that creating problems for us will also create problems for them" - More inferences from you for emphasis/increase on military spending in a thread about education. Basically saying lets funnel more money to guns and bombs, stay the course for education and hope it all gets better for education system.

"We already have a system that produces good engineers, doctors and business leaders who move to other countries but need better governance so they stay in Pakistan and help Pakistan" - No Pakistan does not have a good education system in place as of today. Not sure what makes you say Pakistan is producing good engineers, doctors, and business leaders. Where is the outcome? Are there as many global tech/business/finance leaders from Pakistan as there are from India or China AFTER adjusting for population? Without that result this is just a fallacy and a subjective claim. Forget professional education, did you see post #88 in this thread by [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION]? Primary school enrollments are abysmal!

Your model for improving Pakistan education -- Assume that current system is good, hope that governance gets better and geo-political military situation gets better, then Pakistan can funnel its precious few resources to directly follow the model of China/Korea/Malaysia and leapfrog any intermittent stages -- Do you not see how unrealistic this is? Wanting to improve education with a concerted effort AFTER 70+ years of bad governance magically gets better and AFTER 70+ years of hostile neighbor magically gets better. Be honest and think how (un)realistic is this?

Your utopia above ain't happening in our foreseeable future bro and the more realistic plan is what can be done GIVEN the existing bad governance and GIVEN the current hostile neighbor (and resulting military spending, and resulting scarce budget).

I'm presenting facts to you so no I do not have any bias. I have proven your assumptions to be untrue. I explained why the model of countries you suggested do not work for Pakistan. I asked you what other country Pakistan can follow with a similar common ground but you ignored my question. I have also posed questions here that you probably will not answer, or have unsubstantiated opinions on why another country is bad or why Pakistan rather follow Luxembourg/Singapore/Mongolia rather than an apples-apples model.

You are the one offering subjective opinions and utopian what-ifs so if anything you are the one with the bias. Just because it is Pakistan's enemy nation and we critique 90% of what they do, does not mean one cannot look at the few positives they do and follow. If you think otherwise and not follow their good efforts then education policy will continue to remain bad.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What wars were they? I am not talking about scrimmages.

1962 India China War

1965 Indo Pak war

1971 Indo pak war

1999 Kargil War

 

[uppercut]

Bhai if you could only keep your india bias out and understand what I am trying to explain then you will see why Indian system too has fundamental problems ��.

Pakistan has better models to follow once our border situation and fiscal situation improves. We did get ourselves in a mess from all the afghan wars but things are not terrible. We already have a system that produces good engineers, doctors and business leaders who move to other countries but need better governance so they stay in Pakistan and help Pakistan. Also we need to make our neighbors realize that creating problems for us will also create problems for them ��.

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that the Indian education system ( thats available to the ag Joe on the street even in remote areas) is the best in world or even Asia. Instead what they are saying is for resource constrained countries the model that India has is the best. And I can assure you that they are 100% spot on.

But its not easy to build that system as at the root of it lies the hunger to get educated at any cost. It is burnt into our minds at a very very young age starting with worship of Saraswati (Goddess of learning ) . When it comes to education the middle class and even lower economic levels will go to extreme levels in pursuit of a decent education as that is the only ticket for a reasonable life.

From my own immediate family .... we still have a lot of elders who were born few years around 1947 and almost all of them have a degree with a few exceptions. Even those who do not have a degree could read and write English and they literally dedicated their lives to ensure that their Children get super educated. Simply put getting a real degree was the only option on the table. Any other option was literally beaten out of us!!

Dont believe all of that ? Take a look at Byjus - yes the logo that you see on all Indian cricketer jerseys. Its a company that specializes in education. Forget their valuation and look at their student count. 100+ Million!! Thats pretty much entire student population of Pakistan !! Staggering. I can assure you that it is possible only because of a population obsessed with education. And Byjus is just one company there are many others.

 

[daytrader]

IIT-Bombay Graduate Sets New Record With ₹ 3.7 Crore International Job Offer
IIT-Bombay placement 2022-23: Companies in the US, Japan, UK, Netherlands, Hong Kong, and Taiwan made 65 job offers to IIT-Bombay students.

Mumbai: In its recently concluded annual placement drive, the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay (IIT-Bombay) bagged the institute's highest international job offer of ₹ 3.7 crore per year. In an official release, IIT-Bombay also said that a student was placed within the country at a package of ₹ 1.7 crore. This marks a substantial increase compared to last year's international offer of ₹ 2.1 crore, while the domestic offer for the previous year was marginally higher at ₹ 1.8 crore yearly.

The institute has not released the names of the students who have received these offers.

Sixteen job offers with annual salaries exceeding ₹ 1 crore were accepted by IIT-Bombay students. They also accepted 194 of the 300 pre-placement offers, as per the release on 2022-23 placements.

IIT-Bombay Graduate Sets New Record With Rs 3.7 Crore International Job Offer

IIT-Bombay placement 2022-23: Companies in the US, Japan, UK, Netherlands, Hong Kong, and Taiwan made 65 job offers to IIT-Bombay students.

www.ndtv.com

 

[Bhaijaan]

IIT-Bombay Graduate Sets New Record With ₹ 3.7 Crore International Job Offer
IIT-Bombay placement 2022-23: Companies in the US, Japan, UK, Netherlands, Hong Kong, and Taiwan made 65 job offers to IIT-Bombay students.

Mumbai: In its recently concluded annual placement drive, the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay (IIT-Bombay) bagged the institute's highest international job offer of ₹ 3.7 crore per year. In an official release, IIT-Bombay also said that a student was placed within the country at a package of ₹ 1.7 crore. This marks a substantial increase compared to last year's international offer of ₹ 2.1 crore, while the domestic offer for the previous year was marginally higher at ₹ 1.8 crore yearly.

The institute has not released the names of the students who have received these offers.

Sixteen job offers with annual salaries exceeding ₹ 1 crore were accepted by IIT-Bombay students. They also accepted 194 of the 300 pre-placement offers, as per the release on 2022-23 placements.

IIT-Bombay Graduate Sets New Record With Rs 3.7 Crore International Job Offer

IIT-Bombay placement 2022-23: Companies in the US, Japan, UK, Netherlands, Hong Kong, and Taiwan made 65 job offers to IIT-Bombay students.

www.ndtv.com

So what.
This kind of bragging should be avoided.

We all get the basic idea of this thread. Let’s talk about education and its teach and levels in both countries.

No need to brag about things like who has more CEOs and who gets better salary packages.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

India places a significant value to its education system but in Pakistan there seems to be a severe corruption in this education sector. specially in the country's rural areas teachers who lack proper qualifications continue to receive salaries, raising doubts about their ability to effectively educate students.

 

[Bhaijaan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830913778910929214

 

[CricketCartoons]

Have heard great feedback about LUMS (Indian IIM students can opt for LUMS in exchange program for 3 months, or at least they could once upon a time).

 

[Bhaijaan]

Have heard great feedback about LUMS (Indian IIM students can opt for LUMS in exchange program for 3 months, or at least they could once upon a time).

Lahore will always have a special in our hearts as the original capital of Punjab.

It’s sad that i live so close to Lahore but cannot go there. Actually can, but won’t as the Pakistani VISA stamp brings a bad name to your passport , allegedly.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Lahore will always have a special in our hearts as the original capital of Punjab.

It’s sad that i live so close to Lahore but cannot go there. Actually can, but won’t as the Pakistani VISA stamp brings a bad name to your passport , allegedly.

That is what one friend said who couldn't go to LUMS despite opting for it. He said it would have hampered his chances of getting VISAs elsewhere (atheist but with muslim name).

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Have heard great feedback about LUMS (Indian IIM students can opt for LUMS in exchange program for 3 months, or at least they could once upon a time).

Does the reverse apply? I'd love for top Pakistani talent to be able to tap into India's system.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Does the reverse apply? I'd love for top Pakistani talent to be able to tap into India's system.

I recall LUMS student visiting India. Not sure if it still happens (would be surprised it it is).

I think India's education system is over rated. The competition is so huge that people have to work very hard to get the few seats, but within the system isn't that great (or wasn't great during my days). These people really shine when to go abroad. Within India some end up as trolls on Pakistani forums like me.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Lahore will always have a special in our hearts as the original capital of Punjab.

It’s sad that i live so close to Lahore but cannot go there. Actually can, but won’t as the Pakistani VISA stamp brings a bad name to your passport , allegedly.

I only had problem with stamp once and it was visiting USA they asked why I visited so many middle east countries ( they included Pakistan in ME) but I have a Muslim name and am visibly Muslim ( at the time I had a beard not a big one but it was a bit bushy)

For people with names like Kumar and who look visibly like Kumars the stamp shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I only had problem with stamp once and it was visiting USA they asked why I visited so many middle east countries ( they included Pakistan in ME) but I have a Muslim name and am visibly Muslim ( at the time I had a beard not a big one but it was a bit bushy)

For people with names like Kumar and who look visibly like Kumars the stamp shouldn't be an issue.

It’s always in the back of the mind though. People had same fears for travelling to Tehran.

One of my knowns had trouble in getting US visa because of travel history to Iran. Eventually he got it. But faced a lot of inconvenience and delay.