Who do Indians consider to be their greatest ever Test batsman?

[JeeraBlade]

India's all time best Test Batsman

Well, three thread are going on.
- Pakistan's best test batsman.
- Pakistan's best test bowler.
- Indian's best test bowler.

It is only appropriate that we start this thread. Plus, post #54 in "India's best Test bowler" thread also gave me this idea.

List of Indian batsmen with 5000+ runs in test cricket:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


Top Indian batsmen home:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


Top Indian batsmen away:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


Top Indian batsmen in Asia:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Top Indian batsmen outside Asia:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al2=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


My vote is split right in half - for Gavaskar and Dravid. I may be swayed to either one of them (Gavaskar or Dravid) by some of the comments I see in this thread later but right now it is hard to decide between Dravid and Gavaskar.

 

[TheRazzler]

I was about to say double thread!

Easily Tendulkar, but I havent witnessed the likes of gavaskar.

 

[JeeraBlade]

I was about to say double thread!

Easily Tendulkar, but I havent witnessed the likes of gavaskar.

It is not that easy tiger.

You have seen Dravid. Dravid averages good 7 average point better that Sachin outside Asia.

[B]Player       Span       Mat  Inns  NO   Runs  HS    Ave    100  50   0[/B]
R Dravid     1996-2009  54   96    13   4869  233  [B] 58.66[/B]   10 	29   2 
SM Gavaskar  1971-1986  46   81     6   3868  221   51.57   15 	15   5 
SR Tendulkar 1990-2009  66  113     9   5361  241*  [B]51.54[/B]   16 	26  10

 

[Juggernaut]

I have a couple of Indian friends.

I was at one's house recently and his family love cricket. I mean not only his brothers and his dad but his mum, his sisters etc.

Now we were talking about this very same topic. And his dad who saw Gavaskar play, who saw Tendu from the start and Dravid maintain that Dravid is India's greatest batsman of recent times.

I asked him why not Gavaskar. He said that for all Gavaskars attributes he always played for himself rather than the team. He played for his own stats rather than the team.

He said Tendu is a great batsman no doubt but he felt that as far as reliability, as far as solidity was concerned he'd go fo Dravid.

It was quite an interesting discussion. He made a number of good points which would be too long to go into. But he certainly had me convinced.

So I don't know much about the Nawab of Patuadi or whatever but I'd go with Dravid.

 

[izi]

v sehwag

 

[dani2k]

Got to be Sunny bhai for me. Forget about allegations about he being selfish (which might have some credence) but having the most # of his centuries against an all time best test cricket side (WI of the 70s and 80s) should count a lot..

Did he have the most runs against the WI side during his era too? Stats gurus help here pls..

 

[JeeraBlade]

Did he have the most runs against the WI side during his era too? Stats gurus help here pls..

Yes, he did. Not only in his era, he is the highest run scorer vs West Indies ever.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...0;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

I saw Gavaskar play.

To me, Sunil Manohar Gavaskar. Followed by Tendy. Then daylight.

Ultimately statistics decide the worth of a player, but when comparing players who are of a similar calibre they can be deceptive. So I will not use stats to compare the three.

Dravid does not come into the equation; he's close to a great (my definition of 'Great'). The opposition has always respected him but he's never had the aura, nor the presence.

Gavaskar played a significant part of his career without a helmet, and then later on with just a head guard. But those are instances of the man's courage, not ability.

He was a great technician. He had superb balance, timing, judgment and concentration. He faced down what was the greatest and most fearsome bowling attack in history, the West Indies quartet, at a time when they were ravening the opposition. Check out his record in the Windies.

The only batsman in the same class is Tendy. Tendulkar is a tad bit more stylish, can dominate the oppo a tad bit more. However, and this is a clinching argument to me, Tendulkar has never had to face similar bowling except the Pakistanis early on in his career and McGrath later (Waqar and Wasim were great but not equal to the Windies attack; McGrath, I have the same argument).

On another tack, Indian fans in the 90s were used to placing their burden of expectations on Tendy, although not so much now. Those who saw Gavaskar play know that it was actually worse with him. For a long time for the Indian team, if Gavaskar got out, the team was done.

The glow of reverence that Tendulkar richly deserves sometimes dims the faith and hope fans once placed on Sunny.

Gavaskar.

 

[dani2k]

Yes, he did. Not only in his era, he is the highest run scorer vs West Indies ever.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...0;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

Gee...some record that! Thanks a ton mate

 

[Sultan Yusuf]

Best Batsmen:

Gavaskar

Dravid

Pleasing to watch:
Azharuddin

 

[mindless slogging]

Didn't Sunil Gavaskar say somewhere that Tendulkar is a better player than him?

Anyway, Tendulkar is rated as the greatest batsmen since Bradman according to Richie Benaud. High praise indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vthfSPF_LCw

 

[jusarrived]

Gavaskar said Gundappa Vishwanath was a better batsmen than him , not tendulkar .

For me by far , its Rahuld Dravid ..quite simply bcos some of our biggest test wins ever be it against Aus , Pak or WI wudnt have been possible without him ....Laxman/shewag/Gavaskar at 2nd position ..tendulkar at 3rd along with a few other players from past...but then I havent seen a lot of Vishwanath , Vinoo Mankad , Hazare , Patudi ,Vengsarkar ..so obviously its among the batsmen i have seen play .

 

[siddharth]

Gavaskar for me.

 

[shahzadddd]

Vinod Kambli - best bandana and earing combo in the sub-continent

 

[AZ]

wow, another tough answer...can't decide between Sadagoppan Ramesh and Aakash Chopra

 

[JeeraBlade]

I saw Gavaskar play.

To me, Sunil Manohar Gavaskar. Followed by Tendy. Then daylight.

To me Gavaskar/Dravid -- day light and then Sachin/Azhar/Vishwanath.

Ultimately statistics decide the worth of a player, but when comparing players who are of a similar calibre they can be deceptive. So I will not use stats to compare the three.

Just like you mentioned Gavaskar's record against WI, I'l mentioned Dravid's record outside Asia as compared to Sachin.

Dravid does not come into the equation; he's close to a great (my definition of 'Great'). The opposition has always respected him but he's never had the aura, nor the presence.


The glow of reverence that Tendulkar richly deserves sometimes dims the faith and hope fans once placed on Sunny.

Gavskar was a great technician. He had superb balance, timing, judgment and concentration. He faced down what was the greatest and most fearsome bowling attack in history, the West Indies quartet, at a time when they were ravening the opposition. Check out his record in the Windies.

May be it was glow of reverence that Tendulkar got, dimmed Dravid's aura and presence. You praise Gavaskar's technique, balance, timing, judgment, and concentration but forget the same exact qualities in Dravid.

Gavaskar played a significant part of his career without a helmet, and then later on with just a head guard. But those are instances of the man's courage, not ability.

Almost all batsmen were without helmets those days. In fact, it was Gavaskar and Brearly who first started using the head guard before anybody else. I think, it was mostly for the safety - not because of the courage.

 

[*sallu*]

How is that even a question?

When you achieve as much as Sachin Tendulkar has, no matter who the competitors were, he has to win it

 

[siddharth]

Great post by COL,however I disagree about the ''daylight'' argument.Definitely not,not in tests atleast.

 

[siddharth]

wow, another tough answer...can't decide between Sadagoppan Ramesh and Aakash Chopra

You mean India's batting is traditionally weak like fast bowling.I disagree.

 

[Indiafan]

Easily Sachin Tendulkar for various reasons. Dravid's speciality is partnerships. Very seldom has he played a winnign innigns when another batsman has not scoreed a 100 at a faster rate than him. He ritates the strike well and lets others do most of the work

Also, he is one of the very few to average oin the 50ws in the 90s unlike now when its dime a dozen

 

[JeeraBlade]

Didn't Sunil Gavaskar say somewhere that Tendulkar is a better player than him?

How media and fan would have treated Gavaskar if he said, "I was better than Sachin"?

Anyway, Tendulkar is rated as the greatest batsmen since Bradman according to Richie Benaud. High praise indeed.

That was Richie's opinion.

 

[Indiafan]

How media and fan would have treated Gavaskar if he said, "I was better than Sachin"?


That was Richie's opinion.

But when 100s of ex cricketers, experts, the best players in history from all countries, the best commentators, the best critics, all havce the same opinion, we have got to respect that, dont we?

 

[jusarrived]

You mean India's batting is traditionally weak like fast bowling.I disagree.

to be fair to AZ , Ramesh and CChopra would have been legends in pakistan

 

[JeeraBlade]

Easily Sachin Tendulkar for various reasons.

For example?

Dravid's speciality is partnerships. Very seldom has he played a winnign innigns when another batsman has not scoreed a 100 at a faster rate than him.

What makes you think S/R matters in test cricket - except when you are trying to score fast either to set target/declare or trying to win a test in 4th innings when there are not enough overs. Staying at the wicket and having concentration are better qualities. If S/R mattered then Afridi would have the integral part of Pak team.

He rotates the strike well and lets others do most of the work

This is one of the strangest cricketing comment I have heard. Dravid is your best batsman outside Asia. How come he has the best average and 4869 outside Asia if he let other players do the work. Did the scorers credited runs to Dravid by mistake - when other batsman scored them?

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al2=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

[JeeraBlade]

But when 100s of ex cricketers, experts, the best players in history from all countries, the best commentators, the best critics, all havce the same opinion, we have got to respect that, dont we?

Are you saying the "experts" in thread who are picking Gavaskar or Dravid have no respect?

 

[mindless slogging]

But when 100s of ex cricketers, experts, the best players in history from all countries, the best commentators, the best critics, all havce the same opinion, we have got to respect that, dont we?

Yeah, that's what I kind of meant. Sachin is regarded as a true great outside of India by pundits and fans of other teams as well as in India.

 

[Tendlya Rules]

Gavaskar's headguard

To me Gavaskar/Dravid -- day light and then

Almost all batsmen were without helmets those days. In fact, it was Gavaskar and Brearly who first started using the head guard before anybody else. I think, it was mostly for the safety - not because of the courage.

Do you know that Gavaskar did not get hit even once on his head in his entire career? Not once...not even when he played the WI quicks...against whom he had 11/13 hundreds..

i think his headguard is preserved in one of those museums in London...Shortly after his retirement, a famous brain surgeon saw this headguard displayed and commented that if he had ever been hit on the head by a fast bowler,

1) without the headguard, he had some chance of living...

2) with the headguard, he would suffer an immediately fatal injury...

know for sure that someone said this, but dont know about the veracity of the claim...

 

[umerz]

Tendulkar...reason y i started following Indian matches....and never thought would be praying for an Indian to score....he is just different...awesome...its the chrisma the X factor despite being so modest...amazing

 

[*sallu*]

Guys
This really is a no brainer
Dravid and Ganguly made their test debuts in 96.
Gavasker had a career span on 16 years.

Tendulkar made his debut in 1989 and I cant see him retiring for another 2 years.
To be able to sustain such consistancy over 22 years of regular appearances is unheard of.
I mean even if he averaged 5 points lower tha Dravid, Ganguly and Gavaskar, to be able to achieve and mantain that kind of an average over 160 test matches and 425 One Dayers is out of this world.

Test Match Career Records
Player Mat Inns Runs HS Ave 100 50
Ganguly 113 188 7212 239 42.17 16 35
Sachin 159 261 12773 248* 54.58 42 53
Dravid 134 233 10823 270 52.53 26 57
Gavaskar125 214 10122 236* 51.12 34 45

I mean guys you can give stats like whether he has played in Asia or Africa or Antartica but he has atleast 25 more tests than anyone else and averages a good 2 points atleast above all of them aswell.

Ganguly was decent, Dravid and Gavaskar were legends but Tendulkar (and Bradman) were the all time daddys

 

[adarsh_bang]

Guys
This really is a no brainer
Dravid and Ganguly made their test debuts in 96.
Gavasker had a career span on 16 years.

Tendulkar made his debut in 1989 and I cant see him retiring for another 2 years.
To be able to sustain such consistancy over 22 years of regular appearances is unheard of.
I mean even if he averaged 5 points lower tha Dravid, Ganguly and Gavaskar, to be able to achieve and mantain that kind of an average over 160 test matches and 425 One Dayers is out of this world.

Test Match Career Records
Player Mat Inns Runs HS Ave 100 50
Ganguly 113 188 7212 239 42.17 16 35
Sachin 159 261 12773 248* 54.58 42 53
Dravid 134 233 10823 270 52.53 26 57
Gavaskar125 214 10122 236* 51.12 34 45

brilliant post sallu... awesome

 

[JeeraBlade]

Guys
This really is a no brainer

Ganguly was decent, Dravid and Gavaskar were legends but Tendulkar (and Bradman) were the all time daddys

Its no brainer if you haven't seen Gavaskar play or haven't followed his career. Most of the people who have seen Gavaskar play, agree that Gavaskar was better complete package (as a test batsman) than Sachin. Just look at a few posts in this thread.

 

[kingusama92]

I feel that Sachin Tendulkar is the best batsman India`s ever had.

He`s just always had this aura about him and perhaps some will use stats to show Dravid or Gavaskar as better batsman, I still feel Tendulkar is better then them both.

This is one compelling thread because of the class players we are comparing.

 

[*sallu*]

Its no brainer if you haven't seen Gavaskar play or haven't followed his career. Most of the people who have seen Gavaskar play, agree that Gavaskar was better complete package (as a test batsman) than Sachin. Just look at a few posts in this thread.

As it is, I have seen quite a few inns of Sunny.

And please do remember I have mentioned that he was an absolute legend of the game but really Sachin has played lyk 160 tests and has a better average than all 4.

And now you'll say average is not everything.
I will have to agree with this ofcourse.

Gavaskar had the better defence. But can you ever imagine Tendy playin 60 overs and scoring 39* in any format.
Tendulkar offers better stroke play, more extravagance, willingness to take on any bowlers.
Shots such as the uppercut, paddle sweep with a vertical bat and inside out over covers were some of the shots that were completely Alien to Gavasker.

If I wanted someone to play out a day for me I would chose Gavaskar but if I wanted someone to score the runs (which is what crickets about) I would chose tendulkar every single day of the year over him.

 

[JeeraBlade]

As it is, I have seen quite a few inns of Sunny.

And please do remember I have mentioned that he was an absolute legend of the game but really Sachin has played lyk 160 tests and has a better average than all 4.

In my opinion, the only quality Sachin has better than his contemporary batsmen, that he started at a very young age and he is still going. That's all. Other than that - technique wise, or concentration, patience, style, dependability and other qaulities as batmen, there are many many batsmen better than him.

And please do remember I have mentioned that he was an absolute legend of the game but really Sachin has played lyk 160 tests and has a better average than all 4.

And now you'll say average is not everything.
I will have to agree with this ofcourse.

No average means a lot but care to read this post:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2094219&postcount=9

As you can see, average of 50s in 2000s stands nowhere in 70s/80s.

Gavaskar had the better defence. But can you ever imagine Tendy playin 60 overs and scoring 39* in any format.

That was a ODI match and the one of the 1st ODI that India was playing. We are strictly talking about test cricket.

If I wanted someone to play out a day for me I would chose Gavaskar but if I wanted someone to score the runs (which is what crickets about) I would chose tendulkar every single day of the year over him.

I beg to differ. Test cricket is about staying at the wicket AND scoring runs - not just scoring run. If that was the case, then Afridi would have been much better choice than any of the batsmen we are discussing.

Do you know why these two test innings are rated so high?
Gavaskar's 221
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63240.html
Sachin's 136
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63828.html

It was their ability to stay at the wicket in 4th innings - under pressure when other wickets were falling. Which innings you'd pick as better one? I'd pick Gavaskar because he stayed at the wicket and did not lose the test. Notice - the S/R of both players in both innings is identical! Would you have wanted Sachin to score runs at faster rate in this innings ---- I bet not.

 

[Poison]

Gavaskar said Gundappa Vishwanath was a better batsmen than him , not tendulkar .

For me by far , its Rahuld Dravid ..quite simply bcos some of our biggest test wins ever be it against Aus , Pak or WI wudnt have been possible without him ....Laxman/shewag/Gavaskar at 2nd position ..tendulkar at 3rd along with a few other players from past...but then I havent seen a lot of Vishwanath , Vinoo Mankad , Hazare , Patudi ,Vengsarkar ..so obviously its among the batsmen i have seen play .

You put Laxman and Sehwag ahead of Tendulkar.

 

[JeeraBlade]

For me by far , its Rahuld Dravid ..quite simply bcos some of our biggest test wins ever be it against Aus , Pak or WI wudnt have been possible without him ....Laxman/shewag/Gavaskar at 2nd position ..tendulkar at 3rd along with a few other players from past...but then I havent seen a lot of Vishwanath , Vinoo Mankad , Hazare , Patudi ,Vengsarkar ..so obviously its among the batsmen i have seen play .

So, there are a few Indian fans who understand cricket!

 

[Poison]

JB, you base your opinions solely on statistics. Any sane person would not argue that either Laxman or Sehwag were better than Tendulkar was in his heyday. Let alone compare them, they dont even deserve to be spoken of in the same sentence.

 

[Cover Drive]

I would go with Rahul Dravid. To be honest with you guys if I was to support any Indian cricket player it will be none other than Dravid. He is also my favourite Indian player

 

[jusarrived]

poison , on the contrary just on basis of stats all of us would have Tendulkar as the best batsmen ..for me its just players who have contributed to our Wins or atleast the ones who played with the right approach ...strike rates and averages totally irrelevent ..on both accounts , Shewag , Dravid and VVS are way ahead of tendulkar .

I know I will be accused of blind hatred for Tendulkar , but the fact is I think his technique is better than even Dravid and is far more talented bat then VVS or Shewag ..but the difference is approach and intent .

 

[Poison]

Fair call I can see where you're coming from; Tendulkar has scored a fair few hundreds in a losing cause yeah?

But he's far and away the most talented. Okay I see your point now.

 

[jusarrived]

So, there are a few Indian fans who understand cricket!

was I very generous with the 3rd position ?

 

[JeeraBlade]

JB, you base your opinions solely on statistics.

If I did, then Sachin would have better batsman than Bradman - let alone Gavaskar and Dravid.

I don't base my opinion on stats - I use them to support my opinion.

Any sane person would not argue that either Laxman or Sehwag were better than Tendulkar was in his heyday. Let alone compare them, they dont even deserve to be spoken of in the same sentence.

You noticed I highlighted "tendulkar at 3rd "part of the post? Yes, Sachin is at #3 in India in my books - behind Gavaskar & Dravid. No, Laxman and Sehwag are not better batmen than Sachin.

was I very generous with the 3rd position ?

No you were not! You don't want Sachin fans to put you in the dens of hungry lions -- which they might do that anyways for putting him at #3.

 

[Qelic]

gavaskar .

 

[Random Aussie]

Tendulkar easily

 

[Brilliant_Boyd]

Good question. Maybe gaveskar or tendulkar. Even dravid maybe?

 

[iHammad]

wow, another tough answer...can't decide between Sadagoppan Ramesh and Aakash Chopra

2 totally different players that are being discussed in the thread?
Stats plz

 

[iHammad]

For me it is Rahul Dravid.
I still remember that test match vs NZ where India were following on and he and Gambhir played brilliantly!

 

[AtifUk]

I beg to differ. Test cricket is about staying at the wicket AND scoring runs - not just scoring run. If that was the case, then Afridi would have been much better choice than any of the batsmen we are discussing..

Ok, Im sorry but that is an absurd comment, How you can even compare Afridi with Tendulkar when it comes to "just scoring runs", Infact even Dravid would get you "more runs" than Afridi.

 

[Civil]

Virender Sehwag will be the greatest indian Test batsman ever by the time he retires.

if the guy plays 50 odd more tests at the rate he's going. Its absurd that this guy has the average he has at that strike rate!

Plus hundreds, big big hundreds in all types of conditions in AUS, PAK, SAF, WINDIES you name it.

 

[Shaheerthe2nd]

It is between Tendulker and Rahul Dravid. Both great yet both so different. The Little Master and The Wall.

 

[purplehaze]

Best batsman (i.e. considering batting skills only) - Sachin Tendulkar
Best batsman who contributed most when it mattered - Rahul Dravid, closely followed by Gavaskar

 

[adit_sh]

SM Gavaskar - Numero Uno for India. No one used to handle so many bowlers around the world with new cherry and score so many runs. In 82 Series, I remember only Gavaskar and Jimmy played the huge inswingers of Imran. Rest used to complain of cheating as they dont know what was happening.....lol..... He played 4 mighty WI fast bowlers of 70 - 80 with new cherry and scored 13 centuries against them. He had scored well against England in England and Aussies too. He has been the saviours of Matches for India in those days with hardly any bowlers in contention. However First series victory in WI and England was due to heavy scoring by the master and thanks to spinning trio.

The only bowler against whome he hasnt scored a century was DK Lillee and he was determined to do in 1981 test in melbourne and then the famous episode happened. He was disappointed to have got out for 70 with a debatable wrong decesion.

Followed by SRT, Who used to have the similar set of bowlers but did not converted to victory specially abroad. But his flair and overall cricketing ability makes him better than dravid

Followed by Dravid , who did contributed to some of India's key victories abroad in 2000's
Adelide, Perth, Headengly, Rawalpindi, WI, England etc.... but not as much as Gavaskar

Interesting stats : Vishy - 14 Centuries and none of them in losing cause.

 

[JeeraBlade]

^^
very good write up.

Interesting stats : Vishy - 14 Centuries and none of them in losing cause.

Amazing!!!
I wish, I had seen two Indian players play live or on TV. One Vishy and the other Chandrashkhar. Have read and heard only good thing about them.

 

[Bawaa]

Some of the posters rate Tendulkar over Gavaskar, are you kidding me!!!

In my opinion Gavaskar was the best Test batsman ever from both India and Pakistan. Whereas Tendulkar is concerned, I agree with Jeerablade (well it is hard to argue with him anyway )

My following thread was wiped out by pakpassion moderators saying, they couldn’t handle resulting hassle at that time. I couldn’t resist contributing to the topic, hoping the moderators would not mind this time.

Tendulkar against best fast bowlers of his era

His records would have been breathtaking if he had not faced G McGrath, Allan Donald, Wasim Akram, S Pollock, Waqar Younis, Shane Bond, Nitni and Steyn. They were all great fast bowlers of his era.

Tendulker’s Test average is 54.58, which actually could have been 62.56, had he not faced these great bowlers. Sachin’s Test average went down to 34.27 from 54.58 in 68 innings of 37 Tests he played against McGrath, A Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Ntini, Pollock, Steyn and S Bond. In those 37 tests India lost 18 and won 8. He scored 6 centuries against them. But only ONE Century in winning cause.

In 50 innings out of 68, Tendulker failed to score a half century or century.

Same story in One Day Internationals

Sachin scored unbelievable 16,684 runs in ODIs. But his average went down to 32.12 from 44.37 in 107 ODIs when McGrath, Allan Donald, Wasim, Waqar , Ntini, Pollock, Steyn and Bond were in opposite team. India lost 66 matches and won 39 of those 107 matches. He failed to score a half century or a century in 84 innings out of 107 innings against them.

No wonder in ICC’s Best Ever Test Ranking s,Tandulker is at No. 26 and in Best Ever One Day Rankings, Tendulkar is at No. 12. He has never been able to achieve 900 points in both Test and ODI rankings.

So I think it is unfair to rate him above Gavasker (a lot has been said earlier about Gavasker already). I even

Why Tendulkar is great?

Tendulker is great but not the greatest ever Indian Test batsman. Like Sallu pointed out, to play 159 Test Matches and 425 ODIs in 20 years is not a joke. How many players can keep themselves fit and motivated for so long. Tendulkar owns all major records for Tests and ODIs. No one in near future looks like to break his records. Our own Javed Miandad and Inzmam wanted so badly to score 10,000 runs in Test cricket and could not even score 9000 runs. Sachin has scored 12,773 runs in Tests!!!! His greatness lies in his incredible LONGEVITY with consistent high performance.

 

[rkt.india]

Easily Sachin Tendulkar for various reasons. Dravid's speciality is partnerships. Very seldom has he played a winnign innigns when another batsman has not scoreed a 100 at a faster rate than him. He ritates the strike well and lets others do most of the work

Also, he is one of the very few to average oin the 50ws in the 90s unlike now when its dime a dozen

Sachin is the greatest cricketer, not the best test batsman, these 2 r different things.

 

[DHONI183]

Whatever but Sachin Tendulkar cannot be blamed and discredited for scoring in losing causes, because that would make Matthew Hayden (and perhaps even Justin Langer) look a far better batsman than someone like let´s say Brian Lara.

 

[DHONI183]

Also, Rahul Dravid excelled mostly in an era (post 2000s) where most of the great fast bowlers had retired or were well on the verge of retiring. Usually PPers always maintain that bowling standards have dropped down ever since the millenium has started.

 

[LG]

.

 

[LG]

Very interesting conversation. From the posts, it seems to be a battle between Gavaskar and Tendulkar.

 

[*sallu*]

In my opinion, the only quality Sachin has better than his contemporary batsmen, that he started at a very young age and he is still going. That's all. Other than that - technique wise, or concentration, patience, style, dependability and other qaulities as batmen, there are many many batsmen better than him.


No average means a lot but care to read this post:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2094219&postcount=9

As you can see, average of 50s in 2000s stands nowhere in 70s/80s.


That was a ODI match and the one of the 1st ODI that India was playing. We are strictly talking about test cricket.


I beg to differ. Test cricket is about staying at the wicket AND scoring runs - not just scoring run. If that was the case, then Afridi would have been much better choice than any of the batsmen we are discussing.
Do you know why these two test innings are rated so high?
Gavaskar's 221
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63240.html
Sachin's 136
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63828.html

It was their ability to stay at the wicket in 4th innings - under pressure when other wickets were falling. Which innings you'd pick as better one? I'd pick Gavaskar because he stayed at the wicket and did not lose the test. Notice - the S/R of both players in both innings is identical! Would you have wanted Sachin to score runs at faster rate in this innings ---- I bet not.

I am talking at a purely fundamental level.
I'd rather have Sachin make 35 in 70 balls rather than Gavaskar make 30 in a 100.

At the end of the day it is scoring the runs that wins you the game.

Even in a test match it is the side that scores more runs that wins isnt it.
If Side A scores 400 in 200 overs but side B scores 420 in 150 overs it is Side B with the lead isn't it. So test matches is (just like any other format of cricket) also about scoring runs primarily.

Afridi would not be a good choice because he is not the one who scores at an average of over 50 runs in an innings.

 

[Kriketer]

I guess its Little Master, but I always liked Dravid and always thought of him as a more impact player in Test matches.

 

[JeeraBlade]

I am talking at a purely fundamental level.
I'd rather have Sachin make 35 in 70 balls rather than Gavaskar make 30 in a 100.

Why use fictitious example, when I gave you two real examples?

At the end of the day it is scoring the runs that wins you the game.
Even in a test match it is the side that scores more runs that wins isnt it.
If Side A scores 400 in 200 overs but side B scores 420 in 150 overs it is Side B with the lead isn't it. So test matches is (just like any other format of cricket) also about scoring runs primarily.

Then you & I different understanding of test cricket.

Afridi would not be a good choice because he is not the one who scores at an average of over 50 runs in an innings.

His average is not 50 because he does not know how to stay on the wicket. T20 semi-final and final were the prime example of him just trying to stay at the wicket and wait for the bad ball.

 

[*sallu*]

Why use fictitious example, when I gave you two real examples?


Then you & I different understanding of test cricket.


His average is not 50 because he does not know how to stay on the wicket. T20 semi-final and final were the prime example of him just trying to stay at the wicket and wait for the bad ball.

Theres nothing to understand.
Which side wins a match? The one that scores more runs or the one that plays more overs?
Its simple logic.
My fictious example was not related to Gavaskar and Tendulkar. You can replace them with any x y and z you want. It was simply a means to show that the basic fundamental aim and objective of cricket is to score more runs than the opposition


Secondly, I am not giving any reason for Afridi's poor average nor have I said he doesn't have that ability. I have simply stated a fact which is he doesnt average over 50.That is a vast subject by itself. I simply said We should not bring him in the discussion because his stats and achievements are no where close to the players mentioned in this thread in test match cricket.

 

[dani2k]

I guess its Little Master, but I always liked Dravid and always thought of him as a more impact player in Test matches.

Which one? Sunny or Sachin? Both were referred to by the same nick (And Hanif Mohammed was the original one I guess..)

 

[DHONI183]

His average is not 50 because he does not know how to stay on the wicket. T20 semi-final and final were the prime example of him just trying to stay at the wicket and wait for the bad ball.

Blade, I thought people who failed at Test level were always those who hadn´t got the ability to stay long enough on the wicket.

 

[JeeraBlade]

Blade, I thought people who failed at Test level were always those who hadn´t got the ability to stay long enough on the wicket.

Yes, I agree but read the whole conversation - not just this comment/post.

 

[Indiafan]

Some of the posters rate Tendulkar over Gavaskar, are you kidding me!!!

In my opinion Gavaskar was the best Test batsman ever from both India and Pakistan. Whereas Tendulkar is concerned, I agree with Jeerablade (well it is hard to argue with him anyway )

My following thread was wiped out by pakpassion moderators saying, they couldn’t handle resulting hassle at that time. I couldn’t resist contributing to the topic, hoping the moderators would not mind this time.

Tendulkar against best fast bowlers of his era

His records would have been breathtaking if he had not faced G McGrath, Allan Donald, Wasim Akram, S Pollock, Waqar Younis, Shane Bond, Nitni and Steyn. They were all great fast bowlers of his era.

Tendulker’s Test average is 54.58, which actually could have been 62.56, had he not faced these great bowlers. Sachin’s Test average went down to 34.27 from 54.58 in 68 innings of 37 Tests he played against McGrath, A Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Ntini, Pollock, Steyn and S Bond. In those 37 tests India lost 18 and won 8. He scored 6 centuries against them. But only ONE Century in winning cause.

In 50 innings out of 68, Tendulker failed to score a half century or century.

Same story in One Day Internationals

Sachin scored unbelievable 16,684 runs in ODIs. But his average went down to 32.12 from 44.37 in 107 ODIs when McGrath, Allan Donald, Wasim, Waqar , Ntini, Pollock, Steyn and Bond were in opposite team. India lost 66 matches and won 39 of those 107 matches. He failed to score a half century or a century in 84 innings out of 107 innings against them.

No wonder in ICC’s Best Ever Test Ranking s,Tandulker is at No. 26 and in Best Ever One Day Rankings, Tendulkar is at No. 12. He has never been able to achieve 900 points in both Test and ODI rankings.

.

once again a classic example of how stats can be twisted and shaped to suit whatever u want to show. I see you can convinently excluded Walsh and Ambrose in the bowlers list even though of all bowlers, you have included Ntini and Pollock. This clearly shows that you know his average is low against South Africa and you picked all possible South African bolwers .

Anyways, Sachin played Waqar and Wasim in his teenage, long before he got going. He played Steyn and Bond, when he was way past his prime. But dont let that stop you. The matches he played against them are too few a sample. Out of 159 of his test matches, he has played only 12 against Wasim, Waqar, Steyn and Bond combined. You added Ntini and Pollock just to add to the test numbers and make it seem respectable.

The number of tests and the period he played them in, is not good enough for any kind of analysis on it

 

[zam]

Pure dominance....Tendulkar

 

[pun500]

without doubt tendulkar.... how many players all across the globe have we seen end badly at the fag end of their careers...

dravid was on a huge downward spiral..
even gavaskar tanked in ihis last 4 years...

this even after having a career less than tendulkar... so if you compare gavaskars 16 years dravids 13 years and sachins 20 years tendulkar stands out..

winning matches is contingent to having a good bowling attack
which india does recently... remember the 1999 aussie series when tendulkar did all he could with the bat but the others were **** poor and hence we got hammered

to be honest i go with this order (counting games till now)

tendulkar
gavaskar/dravid
vishwanath/sehwag
laxman
ganguly/azhar
vengsarkar

 

[Tendlya Rules]

without doubt tendulkar.... how many players all across the globe have we seen end badly at the fag end of their careers...

dravid was on a huge downward spiral..
even gavaskar tanked in ihis last 4 years...

this even after having a career less than tendulkar... so if you compare gavaskars 16 years dravids 13 years and sachins 20 years tendulkar stands out..

winning matches is contingent to having a good bowling attack
which india does recently... remember the 1999 aussie series when tendulkar did all he could with the bat but the others were **** poor and hence we got hammered

to be honest i go with this order (counting games till now)

tendulkar
gavaskar/dravid
vishwanath/sehwag
laxman
ganguly/azhar
vengsarkar

no, he did not..Gavaskar's blip in form was 1982 when India toured Pakistan...am quite sure this was not a 4-year dip in form...He even scored 96 in his last test innings for chrissakes...

 

[JeeraBlade]

even gavaskar tanked in ihis last 4 years...

Wrong.
Last 4 years of Gavaskar, he played very well;

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...template=results;type=batting;view=cumulative

no, he did not..Gavaskar's blip in form was 1982 when India toured Pakistan...

You are wrong too. He scored 434 runs @ a very decent ave of 48+. He was the 2nd highest scorer after Mohinder Amarnath's 584 runs.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...an;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

[BD-fan]

Srikanth was a fine opener. Amarnath was very good. Bishhonath was boss. Gavaskar was the wall before the wall. Had they had decent pacers they would be really good.

Tendu is stats master. You have to have some thing special to be that. But the best in my eyes was Azaharuddin. Class.

 

[pun500]

Wrong.
Last 4 years of Gavaskar, he played very well;

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...template=results;type=batting;view=cumulative



You are wrong too. He scored 434 runs @ a very decent ave of 48+. He was the 2nd highest scorer after Mohinder Amarnath's 584 runs.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...an;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

where did i mention cumulative avgs ... tanked in last 4 years = for last 4 years every year he avg bad barring 1

here is the list

1984 avg 28.87
1985 avg 39.50
1986 avg 61.69 (EXCEPTION)
1987 avg 42.85

way below his career avg ... that 61 salvaged it somewhat and is misleading which basically included 3 big centuries

among all of these the most consistent is tends despite playing way over most of them

SRT

year 1989 35.83
year 1990 41.44
year 1991 19.5
year 1992 41.9
year 1993 91.42
year 1994 70
year 1995 29
year 1996 41.53
year 1997 62.5
year 1998 80.87
year 1999 68
year 2000 63.88
year 2001 62.68
year 2002 55.68
year 2003 17
year 2004 91.5
year 2005 44.4
year 2006 24.27
year 2007 55.42
year 2008 48.31
year 2009 68.8


gavaskar

year 1971 83.45
year 1972 10
year 1973 36.8
year 1974 28.87
year 1975 47
year 1976 53.89
year 1977 46.42
year 1978 91.58
year 1979 54.11
year 1980 65.4
year 1981 35.4
year 1982 52.63
year 1983 46.78
year 1984 28.87
year 1985 39.5
year 1986 61.69
year 1987 42.85


dravid

year 1996 39.63
year 1997 61.5
year 1998 45.88
year 1999 48.05
year 2000 78
year 2001 46.75
year 2002 59
year 2003 100.37
year 2004 63.06
year 2005 53.33
year 2006 60.83
year 2007 35.64
year 2008 30.96
year 2009 62.8

ganguly

year 1996 50.4
year 1997 56.53
year 1998 33.37
year 1999 50.81
year 2000 31
year 2001 22.2
year 2002 41.08
year 2003 65.5
year 2004 45.33
year 2005 24.9
year 2006 34.6
year 2007 61.44
year 2008 35.59

vvs

year 1996 19.25
year 1997 30.28
year 1998 38.66
year 1999 18.41
year 2000 52
year 2001 54.31
year 2002 51.78
year 2003 85
year 2004 32.06
year 2005 46.18
year 2006 40.07
year 2007 55.11
year 2008 47.21
year 2009 73.75

sehwag

year 2001 47
year 2002 39.81
year 2003 52.2
year 2004 63.38
year 2005 60.38
year 2006 39.55
year 2007 22
year 2008 56.23
year 2009 28

gr vishwanath

year 1969 47.71
year 1971 26.3
year 1972 16.75
year 1973 59.6
year 1974 42.75
year 1975 85
year 1976 44.27
year 1977 29.69
year 1978 58.54
year 1979 57.83
year 1980 11.6
year 1981 28.8
year 1982 41.23
year 1983 21.8



azhar

year 1984 110
year 1985 45
year 1986 54.1
year 1987 46
year 1988 39.83
year 1989 38.63
year 1990 75.2
year 1991 11.5
year 1992 24.36
year 1993 45
year 1994 60.88
year 1995 61
year 1996 37.76
year 1997 38.33
year 1998 67.14
year 1999 27.55
year 2000 55.5

vengsarkar

year 1976 15.88
year 1977 22.71
year 1978 59.18
year 1979 45.39
year 1980 20.33
year 1981 28.5
year 1982 45.3
year 1983 40.17
year 1984 28.85
year 1985 41.6
year 1986 132.16
year 1987 87.5
year 1988 33
year 1989 18.33
year 1990 26.5
year 1991 20.5
year 1992 15.2

 

[LG]

^^ Has JB been outdone by stats??

 

[Tupac]

^^ Has JB been outdone by stats??

he was already outdone earlier in the Tendy wants to change ODIs thread. I mentioned how Tendulkar had scored more ODI 100s then the PAK team combined and he said that it's not true, but he has more then the Indian team. Turns out PAK has 33 ODI Centuries and Sachin has 43.

 

[JeeraBlade]

he was already outdone earlier in the Tendy wants to change ODIs thread. I mentioned how Tendulkar had scored more ODI 100s then the PAK team combined and he said that it's not true, but he has more then the Indian team. Turns out PAK has 33 ODI Centuries and Sachin has 43.

I didn't even see your reply. Let me reply to that post.

 

[JeeraBlade]

where did i mention cumulative avgs ... tanked in last 4 years = for last 4 years every year he avg bad barring 1

here is the list

1984 avg 28.87
1985 avg 39.50
1986 avg 61.69 (EXCEPTION)
1987 avg 42.85

way below his career avg ... that 61 salvaged it somewhat and is misleading which basically included 3 big centuries

This is what you said. "even gavaskar tanked in ihis last 4 years...".
In reply I showed you the combined 4 year stats - since you were talking about FOUR combined year - you did not say well, he tanked in 84, 85 but did fine in 86, 87. Did you?

I wanted you to look at the COMBINED 4 years number - not the cummlative average. I turned that flag on to see where his "last 4 years" ended. This is what I wanted you look at:

           [B]Test Inn  NO  Runs   HS      Ave    100  50s 0s[/B] 
[B]1983-1987[/B]  35  	56   4   2497  	236*  	48.01  	7   12  4

Scoring 2500 runs in 35 test at 48.01 may be called "tanked" in your books but in 1980s, it was extremely decent performance.

Let me put things in perspective:

From March 30, 1983 through March 30, 1987 (four years), here are the top run scorers in test (min 1500 runs);
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...3;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
He #4 by number of runs - ahead of the likes of Haynes, Richards, Miandad, etc.

He is at #7 by average.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...3;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Still think Gavaskar tanked in his last FOUR years?

 

[LG]

Mighty stats there for SRT during the '90s!!

 

[pun500]

This is what you said. "even gavaskar tanked in ihis last 4 years...".
In reply I showed you the combined 4 year stats - since you were talking about FOUR combined year - you did not say well, he tanked in 84, 85 but did fine in 86, 87. Did you?

I wanted you to look at the COMBINED 4 years number - not the cummlative average. I turned that flag on to see where his "last 4 years" ended. This is what I wanted you look at:

           [B]Test Inn  NO  Runs   HS      Ave    100  50s 0s[/B] 
[B]1983-1987[/B]  35  	56   4   2497  	236*  	48.01  	7   12  4

Scoring 2500 runs in 35 test at 48.01 may be called "tanked" in your books but in 1980s, it was extremely decent performance.

Let me put things in perspective:

From March 30, 1983 through March 30, 1987 (four years), here are the top run scorers in test (min 1500 runs);
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...3;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
He #4 by number of runs - ahead of the likes of Haynes, Richards, Miandad, etc.

He is at #7 by average.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...3;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Still think Gavaskar tanked in his last FOUR years?

last 4 years

1984 ,1985 ,1986 ,1987

if you include 1983 = 5 years not 4 ..in year terms not season terms ... the reasoning is v sound because he had his best season in 83 when he got the 236*...

all his 83/84 season matches (9 in all were played till dec 83)

the stunning loss of form can be explained as he played his next match after dec 83 in oct 84


therefore
his avg is 43.22 substantially lifted by 1 good year even including that the drop is huge if you consider before these 4 years he was avg around 53-54 i think

 

[JeeraBlade]

last 4 years

1984 ,1985 ,1986 ,1987

if you include 1983 = 5 years not 4 ..

Gavaskar retired in March 1987. So, when you count his last four years (as it was posted);

march 86 to march 87 - last one year
march 85 to march 86 - last 2 years
march 84 to march 85 - last 3 year
march 83 to march 84 - last 4 year

Where did you learn to count - I bet its not IIT Delhi?