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Who do Indians consider to be their greatest ever Test batsman?

JeeraBlade said:
That is the debate. Being a Pakistani cricket fans, our batsmen generally don't have great record outside Asia therefore in my eyes, if a batsman scores in England, Australia, SAF, NZ and WI (70/80), it is considered an achievement.


:14:
Very nicely presented! :) I like your analysis better than Sachin's batting! :D


:14:
You convinced me. There in not much difference between Dravid and Sachin.
I have almost following the whole career of Dravid vs Pakistan in ODIs and Test. For some reason, when ever Sachin came to bat, I was never "worried" becuase I knew that if bowler could not get Sachin out, Sachin will surely make a mistake and get out. I remember Wasim Akram used to easliy get Sachin out in ODI by making him play cut shot and be caught over the point. I think, he did that 2-3 times in an ODI series in Toronto.

Dravid on the other hand seldom made a mistake and bowler had get his wicket with his bowling.

Sorry, you are just going around in circles. If we take your criteria there is not much difference between Dravid and Lara or Lara and Yousuf or even Younis. Its your lack of undwerstanduing of cricket iuf you prized Dravid's wickets more than Sachin's becuase bolwers including yours always prized Sachin's wicket more. Wonder why?

Sachin has outscored Dravid in Australia, and South Africa. Only places where Dravid outscores Sachin is in West indies, Zimbabawe and England. And the West Indies Sachin faced had Walsha nd Ambrose
 
JeeraBlade said:
That is the debate. Being a Pakistani cricket fans, our batsmen generally don't have great record outside Asia therefore in my eyes, if a batsman scores in England, Australia, SAF, NZ and WI (70/80), it is considered an achievement.


:14:
Very nicely presented! :) I like your analysis better than Sachin's batting! :D


:14:
You convinced me. There in not much difference between Dravid and Sachin.
I have almost following the whole career of Dravid vs Pakistan in ODIs and Test. For some reason, when ever Sachin came to bat, I was never "worried" becuase I knew that if bowler could not get Sachin out, Sachin will surely make a mistake and get out. I remember Wasim Akram used to easliy get Sachin out in ODI by making him play cut shot and be caught over the point. I think, he did that 2-3 times in an ODI series in Toronto.

Dravid on the other hand seldom made a mistake and bowler had get his wicket with his bowling.

Anyways, seem my post #1 - I did say, I can't decide between Dravid and Gavaskar and will decide who do I go with later in the thread. Well, Gavskar is now my #1 Indian bastman, Dravid #2 and Sachin being very very close #2.2. :)

Take the example of the current ODI Dravid is 5 (21) and playing solid. Its okay for him to play that way as India is chasing a modest total but thats how he plays. He is allowed to do so as Sachin is striking at almost 90/100 balls. Thats the advantage Dravid has over Sachin in the initial part of his career.

Sachin did not have the luxury of meandering along expecting someone else to do the scoring. He had to score and had to score quick. If Dravid alone scores a hundred, India will not get enough score in any format of the game. He needs an aggressive player at the other end. He was lucky to have stroke players around him.
 
giri26 said:
Take the example of the current ODI Dravid is 5 (21) and playing solid. Its okay for him to play that way as India is chasing a modest total but thats how he plays. He is allowed to do so as Sachin is striking at almost 90/100 balls. Thats the advantage Dravid has over Sachin in the initial part of his career.

Sachin did not have the luxury of meandering along expecting someone else to do the scoring. He had to score and had to score quick. If Dravid alone scores a hundred, India will not get enough score in any format of the game. He needs an aggressive player at the other end. He was lucky to have stroke players around him.


hello we are chasing 150 here ? & your tendulkar wud have been out by now had it been a bigger total .
 
jusarrived said:
hello we are chasing 150 here ? & your tendulkar wud have been out by now had it been a bigger total .
i think what giri says is right sachin has had to make the game..while dravid more often than not has to be himself
 
siddharth said:
Yeah I know that.But because of that would Pakistanis stop admiring them? No.

They won't but going back to Tendi...we fans of the game on either side of the border would love to have disliked Tendi for the same reasons Imran and Javed are disliked...i.e. their mental strength, clutch performances, being thorn in oppositions sides just being pure champions...
 
Cheguvera said:
They won't but going back to Tendi...we fans of the game on either side of the border would love to have disliked Tendi for the same reasons Imran and Javed are disliked...i.e. their mental strength, clutch performances, being thorn in oppositions sides just being pure champions...
Each and every one has got a moment to cherish,for some one it will be Miandad's last ball six,for other person it will be Tendu's WC 2003 match against Pakistan.
 
jusarrived said:
hello we are chasing 150 here ? & your tendulkar wud have been out by now had it been a bigger total .

Like in the CB series against Australia? Where he scored an unbeaten 100 against Aus in Aus while chasing? Your point doesnt hold water anymore considering latley the only finals we have won have been when Sachin scored
 
JeeraBlade said:
Take Miandad for example, he made his ODI debut at 18 & test debut at 19, even when he was ready to be in the team at 15 or 16 but he was not given a chance. He comes in and scores 500+ runs in 1st test series against Richard Hadlee with a 160+ score on debut and 200 in 3rd test.

Then he goes on to play - just like Sachin another 20+ year while MAINTAINING a better average than Sachin in both tests and ODIs.
Code:
        Tests  TestAve  ODI  ODIAve
Sachin  159     54.58   425   44.37
Javid   124     51.57   233   41.70

The reason I said Javid has better average above because I proved that an average of 50 in 2000s is same as an ave of 42 in 70s/80s in this post:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2094219&postcount=9

This is a very simplistic analysis. And hence has discrepancies. Selecting arbitary cut off points , such as 50 in this case , will lead to different conversions amongst averages across eras.

For example if cut off point is selected to be 60. Then an average of 60.22 ( 2 on the list ) in 2000s will correspond to 57.89 in 1970s. Drop of 3.86 %

If the cut off is 55 then 55.30 in 2000s corresponds to 49.37 in 1970s.
Drop of 10.8 %

If cut off is 50, drop becomes 16%.

Hence trying to compare averages across different eras using cut off points is wrong as it will lead to inconsistent conversions depending on cut off point. Especially since for such high cut off points the resultant set
will always be very very small.

A better way to compare across different eras is to use adjusted averages over the time span of a player and peer-compare analysis.

This has been done comprehensively.

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2009/06/test_batsmen_analysis_a_follow.php

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2009/08/following_up_on_the_test_batsm.php
 
Indiafan said:
Like in the CB series against Australia? Where he scored an unbeaten 100 against Aus in Aus while chasing? Your point doesnt hold water anymore considering latley the only finals we have won have been when Sachin scored

Sharjah 97 , WC 2003 against pak , CB series finals ...20 years career & i can almost count
 
giri26 said:
Take the example of the current ODI Dravid is 5 (21) and playing solid. Its okay for him to play that way as India is chasing a modest total but thats how he plays. He is allowed to do so as Sachin is striking at almost 90/100 balls. Thats the advantage Dravid has over Sachin in the initial part of his career.

Sachin did not have the luxury of meandering along expecting someone else to do the scoring. He had to score and had to score quick. If Dravid alone scores a hundred, India will not get enough score in any format of the game. He needs an aggressive player at the other end. He was lucky to have stroke players around him.
We are talking about India's best test batsman. Dravid ranks pretty low as an ODI player even within Indian ranks - after players like Azhar, Sachin, Ganguly etc.
 
jusarrived said:
Sharjah 97 , WC 2003 against pak , CB series finals ...20 years career & i can almost count
And all those matches when he scored and the rest of them fell like cards,including WC 96 matches.You can't blame the guy for the results.

The above mentioned scenario was quite common in 90s
 
fawdu said:
This is a very simplistic analysis. And hence has discrepancies. Selecting arbitary cut off points , such as 50 in this case , will lead to different conversions amongst averages across eras.

For example if cut off point is selected to be 60. Then an average of 60.22 ( 2 on the list ) in 2000s will correspond to 57.89 in 1970s. Drop of 3.86 %

If the cut off is 55 then 55.30 in 2000s corresponds to 49.37 in 1970s.
Drop of 10.8 %

If cut off is 50, drop becomes 16%.

Hence trying to compare averages across different eras using cut off points is wrong as it will lead to inconsistent conversions depending on cut off point. Especially since for such high cut off points the resultant set
will always be very very small.

Totally agree - it depends on cut off point used. But then question becomes how do we compare batmen from different era (e.g. Gavaskar vs Tendulkar)? Just go by the opinions - if stats presented are totally based on the intentions of the presenter. For example: please see below;

fawdu said:
A better way to compare across different eras is to use adjusted averages over the time span of a player and peer-compare analysis.

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2009/08/following_up_on_the_test_batsm.php
Well, peer-compare analysis is totally worthless from the standpoint of what we are talking about in this thread because you are the one accused of Dravid of having a luxury of stronger batting line up (peers). Now since Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag & Laxman's debut Sachin is also batting in the same batting line up. So, from 1989-1996, Sachin would really stand out among his peers but after that he will not. I'd love to see Sachin's career broken down in two two phases: 1989-1997 and then 1997-2009 and see how he fares with his peers. Wanna take a guess?
Plus, would that reflect on Sachin as being the best, 2nd best or 3rs best among all time Indian batsmen. As you can see Vijay Hazare is the best Indian in that list.


fawdu said:
This is a decent analysis but totally laughable names on the list. I have a huge problem with the cut-off points - just like you had a problem with my cut-off points. This cut-off point (1960-2000) is totally ridiculous.

Reason: If you look at the list, the batsmen of the 2000s are dominating the batsmen of 70s and 80s. As soon as you bring in the batting average into play across the board, it is going to make batsmen of 2000 look as good as Bradman - as compared to batsmen of 70s/80s.

Code:
  1. Win Lara B.C        1.44 50.26    (22.63 10.43 11.93 3.37 1.90)
  2. Ind Tendulkar S.R   1.41 49.24    (20.44 10.69 12.85 3.70 1.55)
  3. Aus Ponting R.T     1.38 48.24    (21.54 10.85 10.88 3.54 1.44)
  4. Ind Dravid R        1.31 45.98    (19.93 10.11 10.92 3.50 1.51)
  5. Ind [B]Gavaskar[/B] S.M    1.31 45.83    (20.52 10.02 10.12 3.49 1.67)
  6. Saf Kallis J.H      1.30 45.65    (19.92 10.56 10.23 3.43 1.51)
  7. Win [B]Richards[/B] I.V.A  1.28 44.97    (21.81  9.90  8.65 3.11 1.50)
  8. Aus Border A.R      1.28 44.83    (18.38 10.07 11.16 3.79 1.44)
  9. Aus Waugh S.R       1.27 44.52    (18.35 10.12 10.90 3.86 1.28)
 10. Slk Sangakkara K.C  1.26 43.98    (22.20 10.33  6.73 3.12 1.61)

 11. Slk Jayawardene D.P 1.25 43.81    (20.59 10.00  8.15 3.49 1.58)
 12. Pak [B]Javed Miandad [/B]  1.25 43.62    (19.53 10.42  8.83 3.24 1.61)
 13. Aus Hayden M.L      1.24 43.49    (20.77  9.83  8.54 2.93 1.42)
 14. Pak Mohammad Yousuf 1.24 43.35    (21.36 10.60  6.81 2.98 1.60)
 15. Pak Inzamam-ul-Haq  1.23 43.05    (19.39  9.71  8.91 3.56 1.47)
 16. Aus [B]Chappell[/B] G.S    1.23 42.91    (20.21 10.54  7.01 3.57 1.58)
 17. Saf Pollock R.G     1.18 41.37    (22.20 11.88  2.22 3.42 1.66)
 18. Win Chanderpaul S   1.18 41.21    (18.59  9.55  8.56 3.04 1.48)
 19. Eng Gooch G.A       1.17 41.02    (18.85  8.45  8.75 3.41 1.56)
 20. Saf Smith G.C       1.17 40.78    (20.14  9.46  6.39 3.31 1.49)

Now, I know there are very few folks on this forum who have seen the batsmen of 70s/80s but can a knowledgeable person like you honestly think that this list is a fair list with only FOUR batsmen from 70s & early 80s? If I told any West Indian fans that Chanderpaul is better than Lloyd, I may get slapped on my face. I'd play Clive Lloyd (who had the highest ave of 61.63 in 80s) over most of the batsmen of 2000s. What about Ian Chappell, Boycott, Kanhai, Sobers?

I hope the name Ananth Narayanan has nothing to do with the time frame that was picked.
 
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jusarrived said:
Sharjah 97 , WC 2003 against pak , CB series finals ...20 years career & i can almost count

Tendulkar in ODI Finals: 52.96 avg with 10 centuries in 38 innings
Ponting in ODI Finals: 39.52 avg with 2 centuries in 40 innings
 
Comparing Gavaskar and Tendulkar across different generations is very very difficult and ultimately may be futile as well . One was an opener in the 70s and the other a middle order batsman in the 90s. Both of them are legends and I think very little separates the two.

But while in this thread , Sachin's record has been laid threadbare by some cherry picking in an attempt to brand him a FTB, Gavaskar's record has escaped such scrutiny. It has largely been accepted at its face value saying he faced bowlers like Lillee, Thomson, the WI quartret, Imran, Nawaz , Hadlee , Botham , Willlis et al in their pomp during the 70s and hence automatically it is a much superior record.

I guess it is only fair to nitpick Gavaskar's record as well. Everybody has chinks in their armour. Gavaskar's record is no exception.

1) Against Australia
Gavaskar never faced Lillee and Thomson together. Even when he faced them - Lille in 80-81 and Thomson in 77-78- , both had undergone injuries and were not at their rampaging best as in the 74-75 Ashes.

Against Lillee Gavaskar averages 19.66 in 6 six innings. No centuries. Throw in the Rest of the World vs Australia matches( Lillee in his pomp) and he averages 20.43 over 16 innings. No centuries.

Gavaskar has done very well against Thomson. He averages 50 in 9 innings . 4 centuries. But this was in the 77-78 series when Australia was severely depleted by the absence of WSC rebels and Thomson was the only decent bowler.

2) New Zealand
Gavaskar averages 35 over 14 innings facing Hadlee. This is almost 30 % lower than his overall average. And just to rub it in more, the away average is 30 with no centuries.

3) England
Gavaskar averages only 38 aginst England spread over 38 matches. He averages a superb 59 against Botham . But before that he has had a torrid time against England. Before the advent of Botham, Gavaskar facing Old, Snow and Underwood averaged 31 in 30 innings. Thats 40 % less than his overall average.

4) Pakistan
Gavaskar has an excellent record playing against Imran and Sarfaraz. He averages 63 while playing against both and 58 if only Imran is considered.

5) West Indies
It is a huge misconception to think Gavaskar scored 13 centuries against the legendary WI quartret.

Gavaskar played 6 series against WI. And amongst those 6, he had 2 gargantuan ones- in WI 70-71 and in India 77-78.

In WI 70-71 series, he 774 runs at 154.8 and 4 centuries. The attack obviously did not feature any of the quartret and was led by Noreiga, Shillingford, Holder, Shepherd and Sobers- at the fag end of his career. No doubt a stupendous achievement in his debut series. But attack was mediocre.

In India 77-78 series, he scored 732 runs at 91 and 4 centuries. The WI was a second string side due to absence of WSC rebels. It did have a very young Marshall- his debut series. But his efficacy can be gauged from the fact that he took 3 wickets at 88 in the series. Terrific achievement by Gavaskar. But again a mediocre attack.

Gavaskar faced the entire quartret together only 4 times. It was in the in 82-83 series in the WI. He averaged 37 in 7 innings and passed 50 only once. Nearly 25 % less than his average. The set of matches is very small to draw meaningful conclusion. Moreover so because Chappell, Miandad, Border never faced the quartret together. Boycott did in only 2 matches. Gavaskar lies eight in the list as ranked by average against the complete quartret. But quantum of matches is very very low to draw conclusions.

In matches featuring at least one of the quartret , Gavaskar averages nearly 50. Take Marshall out of the list and the average drops to 42. Still it is a terrific achievement as that record is better than than of contemporaries like Boycott, Miandad and Border. Only Chapell has a bit better record. Again ranked by averages ,he is seventh in the list but has scored nearly 50 % more runs than the leaders.

It is a terrific achievement to average 65 against the WI side in 70s and 80s. But take away the two big series against mediocre bowling attacks and the average drops down from a stratospheric level to a more human level.

Every batsman has his own favourites and bugbears. It would be wrong to take into account only some specific instances and judge players.

Tendulkar also raked in more than 16000 ODI runs simultaneously. Not Gavaskar's fault that ODIs were not important enough in his days, but scoring 16000 runs takes its toll.

Gavaskar could take apart attacks. But his conditioning and the environment did not provide him the freedom to do so on a regular basis unlike Tendulkar.

Gavaskar is a legend and one of the best opening batsman ever. But very little separates the two. To say Gavaskar is much superior to Sachin is way off mark IMHO.
 
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JeeraBlade said:
That is the debate. Being a Pakistani cricket fans, our batsmen generally don't have great record outside Asia therefore in my eyes, if a batsman scores in England, Australia, SAF, NZ and WI (70/80), it is considered an achievement.

How much more weightage and not why more weightage?


JeeraBlade said:
:14:
Very nicely presented! :) I like your analysis better than Sachin's batting! :D
Thanks but saying that is just blasphemous. ;-)

JeeraBlade said:
:14:
You convinced me. There in not much difference between Dravid and Sachin.
I have almost following the whole career of Dravid vs Pakistan in ODIs and Test. For some reason, when ever Sachin came to bat, I was never "worried" becuase I knew that if bowler could not get Sachin out, Sachin will surely make a mistake and get out. I remember Wasim Akram used to easliy get Sachin out in ODI by making him play cut shot and be caught over the point. I think, he did that 2-3 times in an ODI series in Toronto.

Dravid on the other hand seldom made a mistake and bowler had get his wicket with his bowling.

Anyways, seem my post #1 - I did say, I can't decide between Dravid and Gavaskar and will decide who do I go with later in the thread. Well, Gavskar is now my #1 Indian bastman, Dravid #2 and Sachin being very very close #2.2. :)

Thats just due to their inherent batting style and hence the roles they were assigned in the team. Sachin being the enforcer had to take more risks.

Also it is quite surprising to see a Pakistani fan valuing solidity more than stroke making.
 
JeeraBlade said:
Well, peer-compare analysis is totally worthless from the standpoint of what we are talking about in this thread because you are the one accused of Dravid of having a luxury of stronger batting line up (peers). Now since Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag & Laxman's debut Sachin is also batting in the same batting line up. So, from 1989-1996, Sachin would really stand out among his peers but after that he will not. I'd love to see Sachin's career broken down in two two phases: 1989-1997 and then 1997-2009 and see how he fares with his peers. Wanna take a guess?
Plus, would that reflect on Sachin as being the best, 2nd best or 3rs best among all time Indian batsmen. As you can see Vijay Hazare is the best Indian in that list.

Peer-compare analysis is not the definite analysis. I had given those statistics just to say that the conversion you have given is faulty.

Peer-compare analysis with the batsman of one's own team is useless as shown by the fact that Habibul Bashar is ranked above Gavaskar.

Hence peer compare analysis should be done with the all the other batsmen of the era. Look at the peer compare tables below and in particular to analysis by Jeff as he has used weighted peer average.

And just for the sake of completeness , Sachin's peer compare analysis against Indian batsmen in the two periods.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru...al1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru...al1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

JeeraBlade said:
This is a decent analysis but totally laughable names on the list. I have a huge problem with the cut-off points - just like you had a problem with my cut-off points. This cut-off point (1960-2000) is totally ridiculous.

Reason: If you look at the list, the batsmen of the 2000s are dominating the batsmen of 70s and 80s. As soon as you bring in the batting average into play across the board, it is going to make batsmen of 2000 look as good as Bradman - as compared to batsmen of 70s/80s.

Code:
  1. Win Lara B.C        1.44 50.26    (22.63 10.43 11.93 3.37 1.90)
  2. Ind Tendulkar S.R   1.41 49.24    (20.44 10.69 12.85 3.70 1.55)
  3. Aus Ponting R.T     1.38 48.24    (21.54 10.85 10.88 3.54 1.44)
  4. Ind Dravid R        1.31 45.98    (19.93 10.11 10.92 3.50 1.51)
  5. Ind [B]Gavaskar[/B] S.M    1.31 45.83    (20.52 10.02 10.12 3.49 1.67)
  6. Saf Kallis J.H      1.30 45.65    (19.92 10.56 10.23 3.43 1.51)
  7. Win [B]Richards[/B] I.V.A  1.28 44.97    (21.81  9.90  8.65 3.11 1.50)
  8. Aus Border A.R      1.28 44.83    (18.38 10.07 11.16 3.79 1.44)
  9. Aus Waugh S.R       1.27 44.52    (18.35 10.12 10.90 3.86 1.28)
 10. Slk Sangakkara K.C  1.26 43.98    (22.20 10.33  6.73 3.12 1.61)

 11. Slk Jayawardene D.P 1.25 43.81    (20.59 10.00  8.15 3.49 1.58)
 12. Pak [B]Javed Miandad [/B]  1.25 43.62    (19.53 10.42  8.83 3.24 1.61)
 13. Aus Hayden M.L      1.24 43.49    (20.77  9.83  8.54 2.93 1.42)
 14. Pak Mohammad Yousuf 1.24 43.35    (21.36 10.60  6.81 2.98 1.60)
 15. Pak Inzamam-ul-Haq  1.23 43.05    (19.39  9.71  8.91 3.56 1.47)
 16. Aus [B]Chappell[/B] G.S    1.23 42.91    (20.21 10.54  7.01 3.57 1.58)
 17. Saf Pollock R.G     1.18 41.37    (22.20 11.88  2.22 3.42 1.66)
 18. Win Chanderpaul S   1.18 41.21    (18.59  9.55  8.56 3.04 1.48)
 19. Eng Gooch G.A       1.17 41.02    (18.85  8.45  8.75 3.41 1.56)
 20. Saf Smith G.C       1.17 40.78    (20.14  9.46  6.39 3.31 1.49)

Now, I know there are very few folks on this forum who have seen the batsmen of 70s/80s but can a knowledgeable person like you honestly think that this list is a fair list with only FOUR batsmen from 70s & early 80s? If I told any West Indian fans that Chanderpaul is better than Lloyd, I may get slapped on my face. I'd play Clive Lloyd (who had the highest ave of 61.63 in 80s) over most of the batsmen of 2000s. What about Ian Chappell, Boycott, Kanhai, Sobers?

I hope the name Ananth Narayanan has nothing to do with the time frame that was picked.

I do not think any analysis of such nature can be definitve. I had given the links just to dispel the notion that batsman of 70-80s are inherently superior.

The cut off of 1960 is quite arbitary. I would have liked if he had made a post WW2 list.

Even in the list given above I would it break it as follows

1960s -1 Pollock.
1970s- 2 Gavaskar, Chappell.
1980s-4 Richards, Miandad, Border, Gooch.
1990s- 4 Sachin, Lara, Waugh, Inzi.
2000s- remaining 9.

The list is skewed in favour of batsmen of 2000s due to average and amount of runs. But the list is not as skewed in we look at top 10.

If we combine both the list we get top 20 as follows

Bradman, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting , Hobbs, Dravid, Gavaskar , Kallis , Richards, Border, Waugh, Hutton, Barrington, Sangakarra, Headley, Jayawardene ,Miandad, Sutcliffe and Hammond.

A more equitable list.

The reason I had given the links is to show that the batsmen of the 70s and 80s are not inherently superior to the ones in 90s.

Check out the following lists.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

Both the lists are dominated equally by bowlers of 70s and the ones in 90s. Just shows that the bowlers in 70s were not too superior to the ones in 90s.


A lot of second rung batsman of 2000s like Hayden, Jayawardene, Yousuf, Chanderpaul, Smith have had inflated averages.

But the top batsman across different eras - even of 2000s like Ponting, Dravid, Kallis- are very nearly equal and comparable.
 
fawdu said:
Peer-compare analysis is not the definite analysis. I had given those statistics just to say that the conversion you have given is faulty.
But the lists you gave were as faulty (if not more) than my conversions.

fawdu said:
I do not think any analysis of such nature can be definitve. I had given the links just to dispel the notion that batsman of 70-80s are inherently superior.
Absolutely they are. The type of bowling, the batsmen 1995-2009 are facing is not even close to what the batsmen of 70s/80s and (90s to some extent) had to face.

fawdu said:
The cut off of 1960 is quite arbitary. I would have liked if he had made a post WW2 list.
It still would have put 10-15 batsmen of 2000s in the top 20 due to the fact there are 21 batsmen with an ave of 50+ as compared to 4-5 in previous 5-6 decades.

fawdu said:
Even in the list given above I would it break it as follows

1960s -1 Pollock.
1970s- 2 Gavaskar, Chappell.
1980s-4 Richards, Miandad, Border, Gooch.
1990s- 4 Sachin, Lara, Waugh, Inzi.
2000s- remaining 9.

The list is skewed in favour of batsmen of 2000s due to average and amount of runs. But the list is not as skewed in we look at top 10.
I'll talk about averages below but you don't see any problem with the list being skewed because of "number of runs" scored? These are the number of tests played by each decade.
Code:
[B]Decade Teams  	Test  [/B]
1870s 	 2 	  3 	
1880s 	 3 	 29 	
1890s 	 3 	 32 	
1900s 	 3 	 41 	
1910s 	 3 	 29 	
1920s 	 4 	 51 	
1930s 	 6 	 89 	
1940s 	 6 	 45
1950s 	 7 	164
1960s 	 7 	186
1970s 	 7 	198
1980s 	 7 	266	
1990s 	 9 	347	
2000s 	11 	452

Why Dravid and Kallis get rated on "amount of runs" when 50 tests per year are being played in 2000s in same list as Bradman 140 tests in 20 years (mere 7 tests per year)? Even an 8th grader could tell you that a statistician like Ananth Narayanan could not.

fawdu said:
If we combine both the list we get top 20 as follows

Bradman, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting , Hobbs, Dravid, Gavaskar , Kallis , Richards, Border, Waugh, Hutton, Barrington, Sangakarra, Headley, Jayawardene ,Miandad, Sutcliffe and Hammond.

A more equitable list.
Not really. The name I highlighted, do not belong where they are listed -specially above the names of some of the great batsmen of 1961-1989.
I am sure you read this article:
http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/423412.html
From 1950 to 2000 in 50 years, we have only 28 batsmen with an ave of 50+ but in next 9 years the number jumps to 21. Nobody can convince me that all of a sudden there is a huge jump in the number of "great batsmen".
As a knowledgeable cricket fan, I am sure you do realize the other factors involved. For example:
1) Pitch conditions.
In 60s-70s, India at home frequently made pitches that start to take 90 degree turn on the 1st day after lunch. In a lot of matches, they went in with one seamer like Abid Ali or Solker (both no faster than Razzaq) and three of the famous spin quartet. In countless matches on of the spinners opened the bowling - meaning "bowler friendly wickets". Now India makes ONE wicket like that (vs SAF when Dhoni rewards the curator after the match), the hell breaks loose. ICC slaps on BCCI's wrist, media and cricket experts cry foul... and so on.

Then the pitches were never covered over night as good as they are now. In some cases, they were not covered at all. I remember reading a book where they talked about Pakistan's 1974 tour to England where on one of the matches, rain water overnight made the pitch extremely wet. When the pitch became playable, Underwood was famous for causing nightmares on a drying pitch, caused a batting collapse from 173-3 to 226 all out.
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63129.html
fromcricinfo said:
Underwood was at his most effective on the uncovered English pitches of the sixties and early seventies. On a "sticky dog" the cricket slang for a pitch affected by rain he could be unplayable.

Then you bring in the wickets like Perth, Sydney and Jamaica, they were extremely helpful to fast bowlers. Not a single wicket like those even exist anymore. Hence your fat averages in 2000s.

These batsmen of 2000s have it so easy that they never had to face a bowling attack of Roberts/Holding/Garner/Marshall in one test match. Can you imagine if Dravids, Sachins, Yousufs, Kallis, Sanagakaras, Jayawardenes had to face Brett Lee, Shoaib, Styne, Waqar in their PEAK form in one innings together on a pitch like Perth where ball was rising like crazy from good length??

Yes, any batsman who faced those bowling attacks on those pitches where faaaar better with an average of 40.00 than these batsmen who are averaging in 50s.

Another key factor you forget when statistician like Ananth Narayanan totally forget by putting eqaul weight the averages of batsmen in 2000s and the averages of the batsmen in 2000s that Miandads or Gavaskars or Richards or Lloyds never faced Zimbabawe or Bangladesh.

Look at the averages of these players of 2000s vs Zim/BD;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...1=runs;size=200;template=results;type=batting

Now compare that to Miandad's average vs NewZealand (the weaker teams in 70s/80s but still he played vs Richard Hadlee on seeming wickets in NZ);
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

or look at Richards's record vs England;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

or look at Gavaskar's record vs West Indies;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28794.html?class=1;host=4;template=results;type=batting

Now, think what these batsmen would have done to Zimbabwe and Bangladesh on the flat wickets of today?

Yes, the batsmen of 70s/80s may not have been inherently superior than batsmen of 2000s but becuase of the factors I listed above (bowling, pitches, no minnows etc) makes them far more superior than the batsmen of today.

fawdu said:
The reason I had given the links is to show that the batsmen of the 70s and 80s are not inherently superior to the ones in 90s.

Check out the following lists.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

Both the lists are dominated equally by bowlers of 70s and the ones in 90s. Just shows that the bowlers in 70s were not too superior to the ones in 90s.

I think I answered this point earlier that the difference is in pitches, bowling conditions and the having to face FOUR Shaoib or Lee or Waqar like bowlers in one innings at their peek form makes bowling attacks of 70s/80s much stronger that 2000s.

When a batsman is facing Lee today, he knows he has to survive only Lee until he gets tired and is replaced by a bowler on much less quality. For players like Miandad and Gavaskar, there was no reprieve. If Holding and Marshall opened the attack, then Garner and Roberts replaced them.

The list Ananth Narayanan made, to me is laughable - at best just because it is skewed by "averages" and "number of runs scored".
 
JeeraBlade said:
But the lists you gave were as faulty (if not more) than my conversions.

And why is it so?

JeeraBlade said:
Absolutely they are. The type of bowling, the batsmen 1995-2009 are facing is not even close to what the batsmen of 70s/80s and (90s to some extent) had to face.

JeeraBlade said:
Not really. The name I highlighted, do not belong where they are listed -specially above the names of some of the great batsmen of 1961-1989.

I am arguing the case of batsmen in 1990s and not the ones in 2000s. I think the batsmen of 1990s were as good as those of 1970s. I have already said that in decade of 2000 batsmen like Hayden , Yousuf , Jayawardene, Smith , Chanderpaul have been made to look better than they actually are due to the pitches and the bowling. But I still think Ponting , Dravid, Kallis and may be Sangakarra are good to be compared with those in 1970s. Of course there are no statistics to back this as they have not been tested by quality bowling for an adequate amount of time. This is purely my reading of their batting abilities.

JeeraBlade said:
It still would have put 10-15 batsmen of 2000s in the top 20 due to the fact there are 21 batsmen with an ave of 50+ as compared to 4-5 in previous 5-6 decades.

I'll talk about averages below but you don't see any problem with the list being skewed because of "number of runs" scored?

The second list is still skewed but a little more spread out. And of course I have problems with the number of runs scored affecting the rankings. Thats why I had said it was skewed due to the average and the runs. But even it affects the rankings , these factors cannot be taken out.


JeeraBlade said:
From 1950 to 2000 in 50 years, we have only 28 batsmen with an ave of 50+ but in next 9 years the number jumps to 21. Nobody can convince me that all of a sudden there is a huge jump in the number of "great batsmen".

See above. And I am arguing the case of the batsmen on 1990s and not of 2000s


JeeraBlade said:
Another key factor you forget when statistician like Ananth Narayanan totally forget by putting eqaul weight the averages of batsmen in 2000s and the averages of the batsmen in 2000s that Miandads or Gavaskars or Richards or Lloyds never faced Zimbabawe or Bangladesh.

Look at the averages of these players of 2000s vs Zim/BD;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...1=runs;size=200;template=results;type=batting

Now compare that to Miandad's average vs NewZealand (the weaker teams in 70s/80s but still he played vs Richard Hadlee on seeming wickets in NZ);
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

or look at Richards's record vs England;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

or look at Gavaskar's record vs West Indies;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28794.html?class=1;host=4;template=results;type=batting

Now, think what these batsmen would have done to Zimbabwe and Bangladesh on the flat wickets of today?

He has taken those factors into consideration

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2009/05/ the_great_test_batsmen_a_look.php

Match Performances:

The following factors are considered.

Base for calculation will be Runs scored. Other factors are explained below. Each of these is a multiplicative parameter, ranging either side of 1.00. For certain parameters such as result, home/away, runs added with late order et al, there would not be a below 1.00 value.

1. Pitch type.
2. Quality of bowling - weighted by actual balls bowled by each bowler.
3. Position at batsman entry (5 for 1, 100 for 2, 24 for 3, 325 for 4 et al).
4. Runs added with late order batsmen (no. 8 onwards).
5. Innings type (1/2/3/4, Score faced, Target et al).
6. Match result, taking into consideration relative team strengths.
7. Match location (Home/Away).
8. Match importance (Series status).

The points for each innings are computed, summed and divided by the number of matches played to arrive at the Match Performance Ratings value. The highest Match Performance Ratings value is 40.03 achieved by Bradman. George Headley is the next best in this category with 28.48 points followed by Lara with 27.31 points. Thus the limit of 50 we set has worked out well.
 
Now coming to the pitches and quality of bowlers in the 1970s vis a vis the 1990s.

Take a look at the average runs scored in a completed innings and the average duration of the innings in different countries across eras.

Overall
244 111 1950s
285 117
279 107
279 99
270 96
286 93 2000s


India
238 106
273 120
267 103
275 99
267 99
307 103


England
239 107
265 109
265 103
289 100
282 99
300 89

Australia
256 110
338 128
280 107
292 104
273 97
302 94

West Indies
325 128
300 119
305 113
282 94
271 94
282 97

Pakistan
219 106
267 116
312 122
268 98
262 88
317 100

The average duration of innings in 90s is lower than that of 1970s. The average score is comparable.

So why did the average innings last more in the 1970s if the bowlers were much superior and the pitches more suited for bowling? One of the reasons is greater risks undertaken byt he batsmen in 90s but is it the only reason?

Overall the piches in the 70s were more conducive to bowling in the 70s.
At some places the pitches have become flatter. But in countries such as India they have become more conducive for bowling.

JeeraBlade said:
As a knowledgeable cricket fan, I am sure you do realize the other factors involved. For example:
1) Pitch conditions.
In 60s-70s, India at home frequently made pitches that start to take 90 degree turn on the 1st day after lunch. In a lot of matches, they went in with one seamer like Abid Ali or Solker (both no faster than Razzaq) and three of the famous spin quartet. In countless matches on of the spinners opened the bowling - meaning "bowler friendly wickets". Now India makes ONE wicket like that (vs SAF when Dhoni rewards the curator after the match), the hell breaks loose. ICC slaps on BCCI's wrist, media and cricket experts cry foul... and so on.

Pitches in India were hardly doctored in the 60s and 70s. The highest amount of doctoring occured in the early ninties. If you see the figures above, the average innings lasted 120 and 103 overs in 60s and 70s. It can be hardly be a doctored pitch if the innings last over 100 overs at an average. In 90s the duration was 99. The runs scored are nearly same.

In the early sixties we opened with Phadkar, Desai and Ramchand. The shift to the spin quartret happened due to lack of quality pacemen in late sixties and Pataudi's strategy of playing the best bowlers regardless of bowling composition and the nature of pitch.

Even in tours of WI 71, Eng 71 and Eng 74 we opened with Abid and Solkar. The pitches in 60s,70s and 80s in India were the most placid ever as the number of draws suggest.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...st=6;orderby=start;template=results;type=team

JeeraBlade said:
Then the pitches were never covered over night as good as they are now. In some cases, they were not covered at all. I remember reading a book where they talked about Pakistan's 1974 tour to England where on one of the matches, rain water overnight made the pitch extremely wet. When the pitch became playable, Underwood was famous for causing nightmares on a drying pitch, caused a batting collapse from 173-3 to 226 all out.
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63129.html

Yes this was a problem till middle of seventies. But I think this was a problem only in England.

JeeraBlade said:
Then you bring in the wickets like Perth, Sydney and Jamaica, they were extremely helpful to fast bowlers. Not a single wicket like those even exist anymore. Hence your fat averages in 2000s.

The pitches have become placid in the 2000s. But even in the 1970s not all pitches were diffcult to bat on. In England , The Oval was always a flat pitch. Richards's 291, Gavaskar's 221 , Miandad's 260 have all come at the Oval. Holding's 14 wickets in 1976 at the Oval are special due to the extremely flat nature of the pitch . In Australia Sydney was a pitch for the spinners and Adelaide was a featherbed. In WI, PoS was a spinners's paradise till 76-77.

Quick pitches were present in the 90s too. Perth was quick and bouncy till 93-94 when Ambrose destroyed Australia. In the recent times Brisbane has been bouncy. Pitches in SA throughout 90s were quick- Durban 96 was lightning quick .Some pitches in WI were difficult. Bridgetown 92, PoS 93-94, Barbados 97 were minefields.

JeeraBlade said:
These batsmen of 2000s have it so easy that they never had to face a bowling attack of Roberts/Holding/Garner/Marshall in one test match. Can you imagine if Dravids, Sachins, Yousufs, Kallis, Sanagakaras, Jayawardenes had to face Brett Lee, Shoaib, Styne, Waqar in their PEAK form in one innings together on a pitch like Perth where ball was rising like crazy from good length??

This is an extreme example. But since you have mentioned Perth, Some statistics for the WACA.
Only two centuries have ever been scored in Perth facing Lillee and Thomson.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...ns;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

The WI quartret never played together at Perth. Only once did three of them together . Only 1 half century was scored.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...type=all;team=2;template=results;type=batting

Only two centuries have been scored at Perth in matches containing at least one of the quartret.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...=2;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

Only one century has been scored in Perth against Imran and Sarfaraz Nawaz.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...=2;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

Even in the 1970s not many centuries were scored in the hostile conditions you have mentioned. So why hold that against the present day batsman.

JeeraBlade said:
Yes, the batsmen of 70s/80s may not have been inherently superior than batsmen of 2000s but becuase of the factors I listed above (bowling, pitches, no minnows etc) makes them far more superior than the batsmen of today.

I think I answered this point earlier that the difference is in pitches, bowling conditions and the having to face FOUR Shaoib or Lee or Waqar like bowlers in one innings at their peek form makes bowling attacks of 70s/80s much stronger that 2000s.

When a batsman is facing Lee today, he knows he has to survive only Lee until he gets tired and is replaced by a bowler on much less quality. For players like Miandad and Gavaskar, there was no reprieve. If Holding and Marshall opened the attack, then Garner and Roberts replaced them.

In the 70s Australia, Pakistan, England all had only 2 good pacers. India and NZ had only 1. So the example you gave for Lee above is applicable here as well.

Only WI had four. But the most innings anyone has ever played against them is 7.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...nvolve_type=all;template=results;type=batting

The batsmen of the 90s too did face consitent and high quality pace attacks.Taking the example of Sachin,

In his debut series he faced attack of Imran, Waqar, Wasim and Qadir.

In the 97 WI series he faced Amrose, Walsh and Bishop.

In the 99 series against Pakistan he faced Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Mushtaq.

In the 2000 Australia series he faced McGrath, Lee and Warne.

In the 2001 and 2004 Australia series he faced McGrath, Warne, Gillespie.

He has faced Donald and Pollock together many times.

Hence it would be wrong to say that the batsmen of 90s did not face consistent and high quality attacks.

In the above post I had given links to show how the bowling lists are dominated by bowlers of 70s and 90s equally. This is further reinforced by numbers given above which say average completed innings lasted longer in 70s.


If we look at the batsmen the lists are comparable as well .

So if the bowling attack was much superior in 70s and the pitches too were more conducive for bowling , why did the innings last longer in the 70s?
 
JeeraBlade said:
Another key factor you forget when statistician like Ananth Narayanan totally forget by putting eqaul weight the averages of batsmen in 2000s and the averages of the batsmen in 2000s that Miandads or Gavaskars or Richards or Lloyds never faced Zimbabawe or Bangladesh.

Look at the averages of these players of 2000s vs Zim/BD;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...1=runs;size=200;template=results;type=batting

Now compare that to Miandad's average vs NewZealand (the weaker teams in 70s/80s but still he played vs Richard Hadlee on seeming wickets in NZ);
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

or look at Richards's record vs England;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

or look at Gavaskar's record vs West Indies;
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28794.html?class=1;host=4;template=results;type=batting

Now, think what these batsmen would have done to Zimbabwe and Bangladesh on the flat wickets of today?

Every era has its own minnows. In the 70s and 80s NZ and SL were minnows. NZ had one great bowler. But there was no other decent bowler. Also Hadlee was a conventional swing bowler and hence was rather limited on flat pitches.

Now lets take a look at Sachin's record against minnows. It is a little difficult to judge which team is a minnow. The late 90s Zimbabwe team was not exactly a minnow . It reached Super 6 in WC 99 and also beat Pakistan in Pakistan in a test series in mid 90s.

Nevertheless Sachin's record against Zim and Ban

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...t;template=results;type=allround;view=innings

1474 runs in 14 matches and 6 centuries. That is 11.5 % of total runs and 14.2 % of centuries.

Lets take a specific match Ind vs Zim Nov 2000. Sachin scored 122 in it.
Lets take a look at the quality of Bowling. The best available indicator of a bowler's quality at a particulat time is by looking at the ICC player rating at that time. So considering that we get weighted bowling rating of 375.5 for the Zim attack. This has largely been regarded as a minnow attack.



Now lets take a look at Miandad's record against NZ, SL and Zim- minnows of his time.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...rt;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

Miandad scored 2644 runs in 33 matches and scored 8 centuries. Thats 29.8 % of his total runs and 34.7 % of his centuries.

Since NZ was stonger of the three , lets take a look at Miandad's 7 centuries against NZ. It would be wrong to assume that each of these was scored on a green top against a rampaging Hadlee.

1) 163 Lahore 76
Attack Hadlee, Collinge, O'Sullivan, Petherick , Burgess
The weighted bowling rating for the NZ attack comes out to 273.7

Since it was in Lahore I think it would not have been a seaming wicket.
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/152121.html

2) 206 Karachi 76
Attack Hadlee, Collinge, O'Sullivan, Cairns
Bowling attack rating 268.9

It was in Karachi . Most probably would be a typical sub continent wicket.
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/152123.html

3) 160 Christchurch 79
Attack Hadlee , Bracewell, Cairns ,Coney, Boock
Bowling attack rating 329.5

It does not look like a green top.

The third day belonged to Pakistan. .... Even at that stage of the game Mushtaq was able to turn his leg-breaks and googlies quite readily.
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/152192.html

4) 104 and 103 Hyderabad 84
Attack Stirling, Crowe, Coney, Boock, Bracewell, Gray
Bowling attack quality 318.6 and 302.5

This was a typical Pakistani wicket as shown by the fact that Martin Crowe opened the bowling for NZ.
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/151956.html


5) 118 Wellington 89
Attack Hadlee, Morrison, Chatfield, Patel, Bracewell
Bowling attack rating 554.5

This was a perfect batting pitch.
Scoring had been exceptionally high in the inter-provincial fixtures at the Basin Reserve - Wellington had innings of 334 for one and 448 for one in successive matches - and on another perfect pitch there, a draw was the only realistic result.
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153138.html

6) 271 Auckland 1989
Attack Hadlee, Chatfield, Boock, Bracewell
Bowling attack quality 554.6

This was another flat pitch.
With the pundits predicting that the grassless pitch would break up readily, the toss seemed to be vital. Instead, only eighteen wickets fell in the match for 1,118 runs.
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153139.html


Now Against Sri Lanka

203 Faislabad 85
Bowling Attack de Mel, R Ratnayake, J Ratnayake, Wijesuriya
Quality 230

Another flat pitch.
What followed was a high-scoring game in which only thirteen wickets fell while 1,034 runs were scored.
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/151970.html

So out of the 8 centuries against NZ and SL , 6 were against minnow level attacks- worse than the Zim 2000 attack. Two times the attack was good and both of those matches were on perfect batting tracks.

Now consider some of these matches which were played on lively pitches.
1) Auckland 85
New Zealand won by an innings and 99 runs, with 130 minutes and a full day to spare. Sent in on a pitch which was not nearly as lively as its green tinge suggested it might be...
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153067.html

Miandad scored 26 and 1.

2) Dunedin 85

Expectations of a seamers' pitch persuaded both sides to go into the match without a spin bowler
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153068.html

Miandad scored 79 and 2.

Average of 27 over these 4 inings.


So to sum up, Miandad too has benefited hugely by scoring runs against minnow level attacks on flat pitches.


For Gavaskar, read my earlier post.
 
Last edited:
shoib_superstar said:
rahul dravid for me
then tendulkar
Who cares?

Take a look at the statistics battle unfolding above!! I can't believe I just read every single post on this thread!!! :O
 
JeeraBlade said:
Anyways, seem my post #1 - I did say, I can't decide between Dravid and Gavaskar and will decide who do I go with later in the thread. Well, Gavskar is now my #1 Indian bastman, Dravid #2 and Sachin being very very close #2.2. :)

In light of my comments in POst # 158, I think --- this article also belongs in this thread;

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/ashutosh/1945/52772/sachin-is-not-the-greatest.html#

Sachin Is Not The Greatest

Somebody once asked me, 'is Sachin the greatest Indian batsman'? I said "NO". He asked, 'why'? I said there can be a thousand reasons. I know it's not politically correct to say so and more damaging if you write the same. But those who know me and have interacted with me know I have been saying this for a long time and had received equal amount of both outrage and ridicule. You can argue that even Sir Don Bradman had said 'Sachin plays like me'. Shane Warne puts him on top in his list of greats.

Sachin is the one who has the maximum number of runs in ODI and also in Test cricket and he has also scored the highest numbers of centuries in both types of the game. But, I will still say he is not the best. In my opinion Sunil Gavaskar is not only the best batsman but also the greatest Indian cricketer ever.

See, let's not confuse the issues. Sachin entered Indian cricket at a time when India as a society was getting ready to take a final call and to completely de-link from the old regimented mind set. It was a time when socialism as a way of life was dying and India was looking for a regeneration, a breath of fresh air. Manmohan Singh was the man to unleash market forces. These market forces injected a new kind of energy, which gave a new confidence to the servile civil society that was used to live in denial and was scared to compete at the international level due to colonial thinking.

It was this change which was symbolised by Sachin. I still remember when I was in the US, Indians had two identities - one as cab driver on the roads of New York and the other as software engineers, overcrowding the Silicon Valley. It was a new identity. Earlier India was more of a snake charmers country. It was an exotic commodity, despite Gandhi's success as a political activist and Nehru's vision as a great statesman. It was not seen as country of competent and efficient people. They were living in their own ghettos. India had no roads and no airports and despite being the largest democracy, it was a functioning chaos.

Sunil Gavaskar was the greatest not because he played the best of pace bowlers world cricket has ever seen and probably would never see in the future, but because he was fighting with his back to the wall with a mind set which was not willing to reply in the manner which was needed to be victorious. Till he arrived on the scene, Indians were not famous for winning. They used to play to loose with the best of sportsman spirit. He was the first Indian who could stare at the opponents, he had a glare that could kill them. He was not willing to surrender even to the best. It was completely new thing in Indian cricket. Even before Gavaskar there were many players who had tremendous talent and could compete with anybody at the international level but they did not have the mental power to shake their opponents.

Be it Vijay Merchant, Mushtaq Ali, Polly Umrigar, Vijay Manjrekar or even Veenu Mankad - they all played to get appreciation from the opposing teams, not to win. Victory was the last thing on their minds. It was not the fault of these players. We as a country were living to earn appreciation from others. We were living in a world where we did not think it was necessary to have a military might to face any eventuality. When we realised all this, it was too late. We believed the Chinese and we faced the music. It was unthinkable for a Nehruite to believe that the Chinese could betray for their own national interest. We were living in a make-believe world under the impression that we were the leader of the third world movement. It was this illusionary world that shattered one day in 1990 and we realised that we don't have enough money to pay interests on our loans and were forced to mortgage gold to save our reputation in the international market.

Sunil Gavaskar fought this mind set and tried to change this in the cricket field. It was he who had the guts to walk-out of the field in Australia and against Australia. He was the first Indian who, knowing India's weakness, never played to loose. He tried to win and if that was not possible he played not-to-loose, ie for a draw.

When Sachin arrived the groundwork had already been laid. India had already won the Cricket World Cup as well as the Mini World Cup in Australia. Indians had started winning or started looking in the eyes of the opponents. India, as a society and country was more confident, the mind set was changing. Colonial thinking was giving in to global thinking. The world knew that we were not less than anyone and that we could beat anybody in any field. But this luxury was not available to Gavaskar. He had to prepare his own ground and make his own rules.

Gavaskar was a renaissance man of Indian cricket, he was the first rebel. It was the rebel in him which said he would not wear a helmet. Till the, end he never wore it and which now seems to be the only gear that cricketers love to have other than a bat and a ball. And imagine the bowlers he faced. Just count. Michael Holding, Andy Roberts, Joel Garner, Colin Croft, Dennis Lillee, Jeff Thomson, Malcom Marshal, Patrik Patterson, Wayne Daniel, Bob Willis, Graham Dilly, Richard Hadlee, Imran Khan, Sarfarz Nawaz, Waseem Akram. All of them were capable of bowling consistently at a speed of 90 kmph and above. And not one ball could touch his head. Whereas Sachin was hit three times on his head. Imagine if Sachin had been playing without a helmet?

I remember one incident. India had just won the World Cup and the West Indian ego was badly bruised. They were like a wounded tiger. Just after the World Cup, they came to India to play. Malcom Marshal was almost unplayable. In Kanpur, Gavaskar, while facing a nasty bouncer from Marshal dropped his bat to the ground. Everbody thought Gavaskar's career was over. But he had different ideas. In the very next match in Delhi, Gavaskar blasted Marshal and scored 96 runs before lunch. It was this attitude of his which kept him apart from the rest. He was a class apart. He could not be subdued by anyone in any situation. He was not like Sachin who finds it difficult to bat under pressure and no wonder then that his batting average in the second and fourth innings are significantly lower than the first.

Sachin has always palyed in the company of three-four very good batsmen. He has contemporaries like Rahul Dravid, Sourav Ganguly, VVS Laxman, Virendra Sehwag, Mohammad Azharuddin, Sanjay Manjrekar and Vinod Kambli whereas Gavaskar had only G R Vishwanath. Mohinder Amarnath was also there but he was very inconsistent. Infact, Team India at that time was reffered to as team of two-and-half batsmen. I wish that Gavaskar had had this option of playing with so many talented players or that he had had the opportunity to be born in a more confident India. If that were the case, then probably nobody would have ever asked if Sachin is the greatest.
 
Sunil Gavaskar was the greatest not because he played the best of pace bowlers world cricket has ever seen and probably would never see in the future, but because he was fighting with his back to the wall with a mind set which was not willing to reply in the manner which was needed to be victorious.

If that is the criteria, then Pataudi jnr. would be the greatest Indian batsman and cricketer.
 
And imagine the bowlers he faced. Just count. Michael Holding, Andy Roberts, Joel Garner, Colin Croft, Dennis Lillee, Jeff Thomson, Malcom Marshal, Patrik Patterson, Wayne Daniel, Bob Willis, Graham Dilly, Richard Hadlee, Imran Khan, Sarfarz Nawaz, Waseem Akram.

What a profound understanding of the game.
 
JeeraBlade said:
He did not say this was the ONLY criteria.

But for him it was the most important one.

Sunil Gavaskar was the greatest not because he played the best of pace bowlers world cricket has ever seen and probably would never see in the future, but because he was fighting with his back to the wall with a mind set which was not willing to reply in the manner which was needed to be victorious.
 
I wish that Gavaskar had had this option of playing with so many talented players or that he had had the opportunity to be born in a more confident India. If that were the case, then probably nobody would have ever asked if Sachin is the greatest.

And imagine what Pataudi jnr. could have achieved if he had complete eyesight.
 
fawdu said:
But for him it was the most important one.

Most important one --- according to the author. I brought in this article to put some more weight to my argument that Gavaskar is the best Indian batsman -- as a lot of other Indians think.

fawdu said:
If that is the criteria, then Pataudi jnr. would be the greatest Indian batsman and cricketer.

So you think Patuadi's 2793 back-to-the-wall runs at an average of 34.91 carry more wieght than 10122 bac-to-the-wall runs by Gavaskar at an average of 51.12 --- if I understand your point correctly? Worse statement than adding Dilley to the great fast bowler's list?
 
fawdu said:
And imagine what Pataudi jnr. could have achieved if he had complete eyesight.

This argument then makes Barry Richard bigger/better than every batsman (except Don) because he got to play only 4 tests due to apartheid ban --- and we all know what he did in those 4 tests and his first class career.
 
JeeraBlade said:
Most important one --- according to the author.

Thats what I had said.

I brought in this article to put some more weight to my argument that Gavaskar is the best Indian batsman -- as a lot of other Indians think.

You could have hardly done worse in selecting an article to buttress your argument.

So you think Patuadi's 2793 back-to-the-wall runs at an average of 34.91 carry more wieght than 10122 bac-to-the-wall runs by Gavaskar at an average of 51.12 --- if I understand your point correctly? Worse statement than adding Dilley to the great fast bowler's list?

And where does the author mention anything about the runs in the article?
 
Last edited:
JeeraBlade said:
This argument then makes Barry Richard bigger/better than every batsman (except Don) because he got to play only 4 tests due to apartheid ban --- and we all know what he did in those 4 tests and his first class career.

And this only betrays the speciousness of the author's argument.
 
fawdu said:
You could have hardly done worse.
You are most welcome to think that.

fawdu said:
And where does the author mention anything about the runs in the article?
-- and where did author mentioned MAK in the article. You brought him into the the discussion -- as if you somehow know MAK's 2793 back-to-the-wall runs were more "important" that Gavaskar's 10122 back-to-the-wall runs --- even with a difference of 16 points in average.

May be I did not understand your MAK point. Care to elaborate?
 
I do not go by statistics alone. Their are lots of other factors to consider.

My mandate is

Gavaskar
Tendulkar
Dravid
 
JeeraBlade said:
You are most welcome to think that.


-- and where did author mentioned MAK in the article. You brought him into the the discussion -- as if you somehow know MAK's 2793 back-to-the-wall runs were more "important" that Gavaskar's 10122 back-to-the-wall runs --- even with a difference of 16 points in average.

May be I did not understand your MAK point. Care to elaborate?

The author does not mention the aggregrate runs Gavaskar scored in the article. You are trying to bring those in. Nor does the author think Gavaskar is the greatest due to the bowlers he faced.

In his opinion , Gavaskar is the greatest because he fought against the defeatist mindset, was willing to play hard on the field, did not want to lose and was not willing to be subdued.

So if these are the criteria used to decide who is the greatest batsman, then Pataudi jnr. should be the greatest as he pioneered this attitude in post-independence Indian cricket and not Gavaskar.
 
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JeeraBlade said:
Well, three thread are going on.
- Pakistan's best test batsman.
- Pakistan's best test bowler.
- Indian's best test bowler.

It is only appropriate that we start this thread. Plus, post #54 in "India's best Test bowler" thread also gave me this idea.

List of Indian batsmen with 5000+ runs in test cricket:

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


Top Indian batsmen home:

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


Top Indian batsmen away:

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


Top Indian batsmen in Asia:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Top Indian batsmen outside Asia:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...al2=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting


My vote is split right in half - for Gavaskar and Dravid. I may be swayed to either one of them (Gavaskar or Dravid) by some of the comments I see in this thread later but right now it is hard to decide between Dravid and Gavaskar.

Non statistically it has to be Mohammed Azruddin..flambouyant, graceful and stylish and a real joy to watch
 
Since this thread is closed;
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=86507

Reply to this post;
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2279069&postcount=145


fawdu said:
Almost every batsman's career can be broken down to show periods of crests and troughs.

Ponting
1995-2001 44.19
2002-2006 72.24
2007- 2009 44.00

Lara
1990-1995 60.96
1996-2002 43.92
2003-2006 60.01

Inzi
1992-1999 43.22
2000-2003 61.72
2004-2007 48.86

Kallis
1995-2000 43.09
2001-2005 67.92
2006- 2009 50.44

Dravid
1996-2001 51.91
2002-2006 63.69
2007- 2009 41.50

Waugh
1985-1992 36.10
1993-1995 71.25
1996-2004 51.32

Border
1978-1982 45.47
1982-1987 62.66
1988-1994 46.15

Richards
1974-1982 60.16
1982-1991 43.93

So did these batsmen too have only 6-7 terrific years in otherwise OK careers?
Thanks you for confirming my point --- he is just LIKE any other top batsman. Nothing Special other than having a long career. I already gave that to him.

fawdu said:
No, we are playing a batsman who averages 54.80 over the last 27 tests.
:))
If you start looking at over all average, then players like Kapil would still be playing who started to suck at the end of their career. Just in case you have not heard -- there is a thing called "decline in performance" which makes selectors drop them!

fawdu said:
He had two bad seasons- 05-06 and 06-07- during which he averaged 30 in 12 tests. After that he is averaging 54.80 over the last 27 test matches.
But of course, quite disingenuous of you to club the two periods together to make it look like a 6 year slump.
Just in case you did not notice, I made his look brilliant in the middle part of his career.

fawdu said:
Any source for such a statement?
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=82367
 
JeeraBlade said:
Since this thread is closed;
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=86507

Reply to this post;
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2279069&postcount=145



Thanks you for confirming my point --- he is just LIKE any other top batsman. Nothing Special other than having a long career. I already gave that to him.

So all the batsmen I mentioned are overrated as well?

The special quality is that Sachin was able to peak and was much ahead of his peers ( Lara and Waugh)in the nineties - a decade which was more difficult for batting than this decade.

And performing equally well home and away , something which others have not.



If you start looking at over all average, then players like Kapil would still be playing who started to suck at the end of their career. Just in case you have not heard -- there is a thing called "decline in performance" which makes selectors drop them!

Read what I had written again, may be paying a little more attention this time and then answer.

Just in case you did not notice, I made his look brilliant in the middle part of his career.

It was brilliant . You did not do anything.


There are opinions of thousands of people in that thread?
 
1) Vijay Merchant
2) Vijay Hazare
3) Polly Umrigar
4) Lala Amarnath
5) Mansour Ali Khan 'Pataudi"
6) Sunil Gavaskar
7) Dilip Vengsarkar
8) Tendulkar
9) Dravid
10) Sehwag
 
Those indians who have seen Gavaskar bat live i am sure majority of them will always rate him ahead of others and i rate him the greatest indian bat too. Now talking about the number second well for them it will be Sachin but for me it's Dravid.

btw i will always prefer openers and number 3 batsman when comparing with those who bat at 4/5.
 
Sunil Gavaskar

Most Indians would regard him probably the finest ever test batsman globally as well. He was phenomenal. Overall, Tendulkar was a superior package but purely for test cricket there is no better player than Gavaskar.
 
I'm not Indian, obviously.

The greatest Indian batsman that I have ever seen was Sunil Gavaskar, but Sachin Tendulkar was not far behind.

Gavaskar's final Test innings at Bangalore in 1987 is almost certainly the greatest innings ever played in Asia, the greatest innings ever played by an Asian and the greatest ever played on a spinning track.

He scored 96 out of 204 as India fell to a 16 run defeat chasing 221 to win the Test and the series against Pakistan.

And by 1987 he was also a magnificent ODI batsman too. Gone was the plodder who at the 1975 World Cup scored 36 not out from 174 balls in 60 overs against England. And here instead was the genius who hit 103 not out from 88 balls in the 1987 World Cup against a strong New Zealand team.

Gavaskar was a magnificent cricketer, especially when it is toughest, in the 4th innings, when he averaged 58.25 compared with an overall average of 51.12.

Which highlights the inferiority of his closest rival, Tendulkar, who averaged 53.78 overall on much easier tracks but could only manage a relatively paltry average of 36.93 in the 4th innings.
 
From what I have seen Sachin Tendulkar, followed by Rahul Dravid and Laxman.
 
From what I have seen in my lifetime:

Dravid > Sachin > Sehwag > Azharuddin = Laxman = Ganguly = Kambli > Gambhir = Wasim Jaffar = MS Dhoni = Saddagopan Ramesh
 
Gavaskar
Sachin

Then a lottery of a enumeration between Dravid, Pataudi, Vishawanath, CK Naidu, Lala Amarnath, the Hazareys and the Merchants.
 
Sachin a bit more than marginally ahead of others in tests.
Tests and Odis combine no one comes close to him.
 
For me, it 'll be Rahul, closely followed by SRT & then Gavasker. Many of Gavasker's runs were not against the toughest opponents. However, there should be a special mention for 3 players - Viru for his brutal aggression, VVS for his fight & Azhar for his grace...


I am surprised to see nobody mentioned GR Vishi.....Probably the best specimen along with Victor Trumper to prove that statistics doesn't tell the full story always.
 
Sachin Tendulkar.

Gavaskar was the greatest Test opener ever, and it is extremely close, but he was not as great a batsman as Tendulkar. It is hard to find fault with Gavaskar as a technician for most part, but he did have an issue with out-swingers early in his innings. Marshall did take advantage of it quite often, Botham did it and so did Imran albeit less successfully (did not dismiss him early enough in the innings vs Marshall). Gavaskar's problem with out swingers remained there throughout his career.
Tendulkar did not have any such glaring deficiency in his career until the fag end of his career when his reflexes slowed down and he became susceptible to in-swingers. Where you could fault Tendulkar in his early days was that often he lost his wicket trying to be attacking more than he needed to. That he was able to balance the needs of Test cricket while becoming the best ever ODI batsman also counts in his favor - even among the greats such as Ponting, Kallis, Lara, and Sangakkara, he stands higher as an overall achiever.

Tendulkar edges it, albeit marginally.
 
Sachin Tendulkar.

Gavaskar was the greatest Test opener ever
Sorry, my eyes just popped out of my head!

Gavaskar is the best Asian opener that I have ever seen, and the greatest Indian batsman.

But no way was he the greatest Test opener of all time.

If you want to go on people's Test record, you can't look beyond Sir Jack Hobbs and his erstwhile partner Herbert Sutcliffe.

If you want to go for quality rather than quantity you cannot look beyond Barry Richards. In his only Test series before South Africa's exclusion he averaged 72.57.

But almost a decade later he played two seasons of the highest form of cricket ever played, the devlishly hard SuperTests run by Kerry Packer. And against even better bowlers on more difficult wickets he maintained that average, and indeed marginally increased it.

Kerry Packer had a choice between signing Richards or Gavaskar for the SuperTests. He chose Richards, and was richly repaid.

So the suggestion that Gavaskar was the greatest ever opener simply doesn't stand up. He was the second best opener of his generation - and the second most in demand.
 
Sorry, my eyes just popped out of my head!

Gavaskar is the best Asian opener that I have ever seen, and the greatest Indian batsman.

But no way was he the greatest Test opener of all time.

If you want to go on people's Test record, you can't look beyond Sir Jack Hobbs and his erstwhile partner Herbert Sutcliffe.

If you want to go for quality rather than quantity you cannot look beyond Barry Richards. In his only Test series before South Africa's exclusion he averaged 72.57.

But almost a decade later he played two seasons of the highest form of cricket ever played, the devlishly hard SuperTests run by Kerry Packer. And against even better bowlers on more difficult wickets he maintained that average, and indeed marginally increased it.

Kerry Packer had a choice between signing Richards or Gavaskar for the SuperTests. He chose Richards, and was richly repaid.

So the suggestion that Gavaskar was the greatest ever opener simply doesn't stand up. He was the second best opener of his generation - and the second most in demand.

Your Sir and Sutcliffe did not play enough teams to get that title.

As far as Barry Richards goes, might have been proven to be a great player eventually, but do you really want to judge him on the basis of just 4 Test matches against Australia played at home. Seriously? Gavaskar scored 774 runs in his first Test series against West Indies in West Indies! And NO, Packer did not have any choice to sign Gavaskar and Richards for Super Series because Gavaskar was not interested. Stop making things up.

You can put your eyes back in their sockets now.
 
Sorry, my eyes just popped out of my head!

Gavaskar is the best Asian opener that I have ever seen, and the greatest Indian batsman.

But no way was he the greatest Test opener of all time.

If you want to go on people's Test record, you can't look beyond Sir Jack Hobbs and his erstwhile partner Herbert Sutcliffe.

If you want to go for quality rather than quantity you cannot look beyond Barry Richards. In his only Test series before South Africa's exclusion he averaged 72.57.

But almost a decade later he played two seasons of the highest form of cricket ever played, the devlishly hard SuperTests run by Kerry Packer. And against even better bowlers on more difficult wickets he maintained that average, and indeed marginally increased it.

Kerry Packer had a choice between signing Richards or Gavaskar for the SuperTests. He chose Richards, and was richly repaid.

So the suggestion that Gavaskar was the greatest ever opener simply doesn't stand up. He was the second best opener of his generation - and the second most in demand.

Some of your posts just does not make any sense, so just because Kerry Packer supposedly chose Richards over Vaskar that means Vaskar was inferior to Richards, umm ok. Last I checked Packer was a businessman not a cricket expert, second of all Richards had not played enough to be compared with Vaskar or a lot of other quality bats, you do not know how he would have fared in the sub continental conditions or WI etc for that matter, he may have been nothing more that a shooting duck. So put your eyes back into your head as Vaskar is wayyy better than Richards, case closed...
 
The most underrated has to be Mohinder Amarnath. His performances against the fearsome WI pace attack ( away from home ) are stuff of legend.
 
Your Sir and Sutcliffe did not play enough teams to get that title.

As far as Barry Richards goes, might have been proven to be a great player eventually, but do you really want to judge him on the basis of just 4 Test matches against Australia played at home. Seriously? Gavaskar scored 774 runs in his first Test series against West Indies in West Indies! And NO, Packer did not have any choice to sign Gavaskar and Richards for Super Series because Gavaskar was not interested. Stop making things up.

You can put your eyes back in their sockets now.

Why don't you ask Bishan Bedi about the comparison between Richards and Gavaskar?

Remember, I nominated Gavaskar as the greatest Indian cricketer of all time. I'm a fan.

But Barry Richards did not die when South Africa was thrown out and nor did he stop playing cricket. He scored 28,000 First Class runs - even more than Gavaskar, let alone Tendulkar - and scored them at a very, very high level, when the County Championship involved playing against at least 4 global superstars in every team, and also in Australia and South Africa.

And he is revered in all of those places.

Gavaskar was a brilliant opener. It's just that Barry Richards was even more brilliant - he was breathtakingly brilliant.
 
For those of you who are shaking your heads about my saying that Barry Richards was even better than Sunil Gavaskar, try watching this:


It was an absolute privilege to watch Richards bat. He brought me enormous joy.
 
Sachin Tendulkar. Period.

Then Rahul Dravid.

Then it is the overrated Sunil Gavaskar.
 
But Barry Richards did not die when South Africa was thrown out and nor did he stop playing cricket. He scored 28,000 First Class runs - even more than Gavaskar, let alone Tendulkar - and scored them at a very, very high level, when the County Championship involved playing against at least 4 global superstars in every team, and also in Australia and South Africa.

And he is revered in all of those places.

County cricket is still county cricket. Not a pedestal for all-time greatness.
 
But Barry Richards did not die when South Africa was thrown out and nor did he stop playing cricket. He scored 28,000 First Class runs - even more than Gavaskar, let alone Tendulkar - and scored them at a very, very high level, when the County Championship involved playing against at least 4 global superstars in every team, and also in Australia and South Africa.

.

Again, blah blah blah blah, last I checked Mark Ramprakash had a brilliant first class career scoring 35,000 plus runs but could not cut it in international level. You are comparing a batsmen who has played a handful of test to someone that has played 125 test matches, you need to stop digging this hole for yourself, let it go and NO Richards was nothing compared to Sunny
 
I'm not Indian obviously, but this is my opinion.

The contenders were;
Laxman- not for sheer volume of runs but sheer importance of the innings he played and the way he played them. Laxman was like a Gower, just a pleasure to watch. Arguably his Kolkotta innings is one of the most important ever played in Indian cricket. Didn't rack up huge minnow bashing numbers but really came good against the best, in the toughest situations. Also a thoroughly nice chap, I met him once at Chennai airport and he was a real gentleman.


Tendulkar
- There is no point uoting his numbers or stats, they are ATG league without discussion. So I'll share two memories that sum Tendulkar up to me.
The first is of a boy. Not a man. Playing at the WACA, which must have seemed like the moon to him. Huge Merv Hughes was charging in, all hair and bulk and hostility. And this cherub faced Indian kid just kept playing him with ease. Classic cricket shots. I think he was 18 or so at the time but to me he looked just my age and it impressed me a lot. He was actually doing what you dreamed of going to bed at night.

The next is on his last tour here. He was getting some bouncers and our boys were bowling pretty quick. Yet as he sways away from one, almost as an afterthought he plays a late cut uppercut that takes my breath away. And I think that Tendulkar has been doing that for 20 years!

but I think Sunny Gavaskar gets it. I only saw him on videos and heard stories. But my dad saw both him and tendulkar and says while maybe at times Tendulkar was better to watch (not always) Sunny was special. Look at his record against all the best, most fearsome attacks in the world. Without helmets. In an era of terrifying quicks. Away from home! It's just phenomenal.

Tendulkar took a more confident India closer to the top. Sunny gave India that confidence Tendulkar stood upon.
 
Again, blah blah blah blah, last I checked Mark Ramprakash had a brilliant first class career scoring 35,000 plus runs but could not cut it in international level. You are comparing a batsmen who has played a handful of test to someone that has played 125 test matches, you need to stop digging this hole for yourself, let it go and NO Richards was nothing compared to Sunny

Not to mention hick. Besides tendu too played for yorkshire & was among highest run getters there @ age 22-23 :)
 
Different people. Different views.

Batting averages amongst Top 8 sides in decades.

1970s - 30.76 (359 centuries)
1980s - 30.45 (444 centuries)
1990s - 29.58 (495 centuries)
2000s - 32.60 (783 centuries)

Gavaskar in 1970s

Overall - 55
Outside Asia - 63

Gavaskar in 1980s

Overall - 46
Outside Asia - 35 (tougher era with great pacers)

SRT in 90s

Overall - 58
Outside Asia - 49.81 (statistically even a tougher era than 80s except for the helmet issue)

SRT in 2000s

Overall - 53.20
Outside Asia - 53.09

SRT in 2010s

Overall - 50.01
Outside Asia - 44.30 (post 2011....you all guys know what happened still 44)

While I understand that its a matter of preference for many...but to call Dravid (who failed against ATG bowlers) to be better than SRT....blows my mind away.

Against matches involving many ATG bowlers (Mcgrath, Wasim, Warne, Steyn, Murali, Donald, etc) , Dravid's away average drops to 32 while SRT is at 47. Home average for both is around 48.

Gavaskar better than SRT in tests I can understand though I really don't think that's true.
 
Sorry, my eyes just popped out of my head!

Gavaskar is the best Asian opener that I have ever seen, and the greatest Indian batsman.

But no way was he the greatest Test opener of all time.

If you want to go on people's Test record, you can't look beyond Sir Jack Hobbs and his erstwhile partner Herbert Sutcliffe.

If you want to go for quality rather than quantity you cannot look beyond Barry Richards. In his only Test series before South Africa's exclusion he averaged 72.57.

But almost a decade later he played two seasons of the highest form of cricket ever played, the devlishly hard SuperTests run by Kerry Packer. And against even better bowlers on more difficult wickets he maintained that average, and indeed marginally increased it.

Kerry Packer had a choice between signing Richards or Gavaskar for the SuperTests. He chose Richards, and was richly repaid.

So the suggestion that Gavaskar was the greatest ever opener simply doesn't stand up. He was the second best opener of his generation - and the second most in demand.

How many countries did Hobbs and Sutcliffe played in?Sorry just because english are in awe of them they dont become history's best.Sir Len Hutton was better than both and along with Gavaskar is the best opener.

And Barry Richards isnt fit to tie Gavaskar's shoelaces in test match cricket.

And just so that you know Kerry Packer's fun cricket and his contracts dont decide who is the better cricketer.Isnt it easier to sign a person banned from Test cricket than another one who is considered at that time the greatest player of his country.Anyways you once also claimed that Sachin Tendulkar was found unworthy of a county contract and the richest cricketer of all time was hawked by his agents to counties for peanut contracts.

Btw do mention the scores Barry Richards got in WSC and againist which teams.
 
Some of your posts just does not make any sense, so just because Kerry Packer supposedly chose Richards over Vaskar that means Vaskar was inferior to Richards, umm ok. Last I checked Packer was a businessman not a cricket expert, second of all Richards had not played enough to be compared with Vaskar or a lot of other quality bats, you do not know how he would have fared in the sub continental conditions or WI etc for that matter, he may have been nothing more that a shooting duck. So put your eyes back into your head as Vaskar is wayyy better than Richards, case closed...


HE also claimed that Sachin Tendulkar was found unworthy of a county contract BY counties and the richest cricketer of all time was unsuccessfully hawked by his agents to counties for peanut contracts.Also not scoring runs in counties is a failure of SRT and 100 centuries in country cricket is very important and that County is the finishing school Tendulkar didnt pass out from.
 
There is this book In a League of Their Own: In a League of Their Own: 100 Cricket Legends Select Their World XI by a guy who knows a bit of cricket himself.

The author who has seen Gavaskar and Barry RIchards both in his time, claimed in that book that Gavaskar was the best bat he had ever seen, while at the same time he claimed Barry couldn't be compared to Gavaskar as he played very little of top level cricket to be meaningfully judged.

I would take his word over anyone else on this forum.
 
HE also claimed that Sachin Tendulkar was found unworthy of a county contract BY counties and the richest cricketer of all time was unsuccessfully hawked by his agents to counties for peanut contracts.Also not scoring runs in counties is a failure of SRT and 100 centuries in country cricket is very important and that County is the finishing school Tendulkar didnt pass out from.

I think he once said that he is not a Pakistani but I have my doubts we are dealing with a sour grape Pakistani here, his posts are starting to give it away.
 
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