Why anti Muslim bias is so profound among Hindutva supporters?

[Stewie]

A group representing Indian American Muslims has withdrawn its float from New York City’s annual India Day Parade on Sunday following controversy over the inclusion of a float they say shows anti-Muslim bias.

Imtiaz Siamwalla, the president of Indian Muslims of North America sent a letter to parade organizers Saturday, notifying them of the decision.

“It is with a heavy heart that we find ourselves compelled to withdraw our float since the integrity of the parade has been called into the question,” the group wrote.

Siamwalla told CNN the group intended to join the annual celebration along Madison Avenue in Manhattan but decided to rescind its participation after failing to convince parade organizers to not include the controversial float.

The float in question was announced several days prior to the parade and depicts a replica of Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir – a Hindu temple built on top of the ruins of a 16th century Babri mosque, which was destroyed by Hindu nationalists in 1992. The destruction of the mosque triggered riots across the country in which more than 2,000 people were killed, CNN previously reported.

“We were very much looking forward to participating but learning that there is going to be a float that has a replica of the Ram temple, we think that this is a symbol of bias against Muslims,” Siamwalla said.

“The politics that take place in India should stay in India,” he added. “Once you come to this county you become an American and America is the land of tolerance of inclusion. So, this float should have never been a part of the parade.”

“When the mob broke down the mosque back in 1992, people lost their lives, their belongings, that was not something that Muslims took lightly,” Siamwalla said.

It’s not just Indian Muslims who are speaking out against the inclusion of the float. Ajit Sahi, advocacy director for the Indian American Muslim Council, said parade organizers are allowing Hindu extremist ideology to taint what is supposed to be a celebration of independence and secularism.

“I am a Hindu and from the bottom of my heart, I reject Hindu fundamentalism and Hindu extremism,” Sahi said.

“There are Hindus in the United States and in India who oppose this temple and the politics that it brings this temple is politics. This temple is not culture, this temple is not faith,” Sahi added.

The Indian Muslims of North America float had been originally designed to showcase “the accomplishments of Muslims,” according to Siamwalla, who said the group planned on displaying photos of prominent Muslims in India’s history and placards reading slogans such as “Proud to be Indian, Proud to be Muslim,” and “Inclusion, Equality, Unity: Muslims make India stronger.”

Siamwalla said the Ram Mandir float is political symbolism meant to intimidate Muslims in attendance at Sunday’s parade.

“They want to show the minorities – look what we did in our country we can do it here too, this is all for intimidation,” Siamwalla said.

Parade organizers have rejected calls to remove the float, saying it celebrates the inauguration of a sacred landmark that is significant to hundreds of millions of Hindus, the Associated Press previously reported.

Other groups have called on parade organizers to not allow the float in Sunday’s parade, saying it’s an overt politicization of an event meant to celebrate Indian people, not their politics.

New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who has marched in the parade in previous years is expected to sit out this year’s celebration. Adams was critical of the float’s inclusion in the parade during an unrelated press conference last week.

“No one should be using any anti conversations in marching in these parades,” Adams said. “If there is a float or a person in the parade that is promoting hate, they should not.”

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/18/us/india-day-parade-new-york/index.html

 

[Bhaijaan]

The Sikhism is well known to have been influenced heavily by Muslims and Islam and can be considered at the crossroads of Hinduism and Islam. If you are trying to preach it came out as a reaction against Islam, I hope there are not enough people out there to buy that kool-aid. Guru Nanak made pilgrimage to Medina and studied Islam very closely. The link between Sikhism and the Muslim sufi movement in undeniable.

Stop your hatred preaching and take it elsewhere.

The Sikhism is well known to have been influenced heavily by Muslims and Islam and can be considered at the crossroads of Hinduism and Islam. If you are trying to preach it came out as a reaction against Islam, I hope there are not enough people out there to buy that kool-aid. Guru Nanak made pilgrimage to Medina and studied Islam very closely. The link between Sikhism and the Muslim sufi movement in undeniable.

Stop your hatred preaching and take it elsewhere.

Sikhism literally came into being from Hinduism to fight Islamists. The barbaric mughals were hell bent on eradicating Hinduism from these lands. Sikhs spent generations whooping the Islamists.

 

[Stewie]

Sikhism literally came into being from Hinduism to fight Islamists. The barbaric mughals were hell bent on eradicating Hinduism from these lands. Sikhs spent generations whooping the Islamists.

Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh

Influence of Islam and Sufism on Sikhism

Dr Manjit Singh Ahluwalia​

Islam exerted a considerable influence on Indian life, culture and religion during the middle ages in the same way just as Christianity and system of modern education is playing an important part in the religious and cultural development of modern India. During medieval period, it is a fact that Islam, if not so much as a faith, but at least as a State religion, played an important role in the development of Sikhism.

Islam and Sufism have influenced most of the religious movements of India from thirteenth century onwards. Indians, mostly religious minded and inclined towards mysticism, warmly welcomed the mystical teachings of Islam. The egalitarian and humanistic attitude of the Sufis attracted the Hindu masses who were groaning under the pressure of casteism and untouchability in their own society. All these factors led to the growth of Sufism by leaps and bounds and thus profoundly influenced the Indian society and culture.

Like Buddhism and Siddhism, Islam influenced Sikhism more on practical side than on the side of its theoretical teachings. For instance, there are two modes of worship in Islam: Individual and congregational. The Hindu worship was mostly individual. Besides the individual prayers, a Sikh has also to join the congregation in a Gurudwara twice a day, at sunrise and sunset. Again the way in which the holy book, Guru Granth Sahib is wrapped in clothes and when opened, but not read, is covered by a sheet of cloth has also been the fashion for the holy Quran. The most important resemblance between the two scriptures is in the headlines of every composition contained therein. The Mulmantra of Guru Granth Sahib and the Bismillah of Quran, are both dedicated to One Merciful God and are placed in the beginning of every chapter. They resemble both in content and form.1

Most of the founders of religious sects (including Sikhism) made the best use of their knowledge of Sufism and used the Sufi terminologies to preach their views. This undoubtedly helped in stimulating the Indian religious movements. Influence of Sufism is quite evident in the teachings of Guru Nanak, Kabir, Dadu and other saints of Bhakti movement in medieval India. The early exposition of spiritual thought in the Upanishads formed an ideological bridge between Vaishnavism and Sufism. At the same time, the Sufis were so impressed by Indian thought and practices that many of them adopted these ideas. Similarly some Kayasthas, Khatris, Kashmiri Pandits and Sindhi Amils adopted Muslim culture, cultivated Persian language and literature, and participated in the administration of Islamic states during the medieval period.2

During the rule of Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin, the Kashmiri Pandits, especially the Sapru clan took up the study of Persian. This was the only group of Brahmins who took to Muslim culture. The Amils of Sindh were a hereditary caste of government servants. After the incorporation of Sindh in Delhi Sultanate, they turned to the study of Persian. Their Sindhi literature remained fully integrated with Muslim traditions and they wrote Sindhi in Arabic script.3

Tara Chand rightly observes, ‘ Hindus offered sweets at Muslim shrines, consulted the Quran as an oracle, kept its copies to ward off the evil influence, and celebrated Muslim feasts. The Muslims responded likewise.’4

The Sufis and Bhakti saints made a departure from orthodox Islam and Hinduism.
However, while the Sufis essentially remained within the fold of Islam, the Bhakti mystics, particularly those of Nirguna Marga, challenged all religious norms, including the religious scriptures, incarnation theory, and idol worship. All fought for an egalitarian society, in which there should be respect, a sense of human dignity and fraternity for all without distinction.

There were many Sufi Sheikhs and Bhakti Gurus who were equally popular among the Hindus and Muslims and there was an effective literary and cultural interaction between the two communities. The devotional form of Bhakti literature, including the Guru Granth Sahib, the Panchvani and the Niryanpanti, which include the sayings of a large number of religious thinkers are similar to the Rushd Nama of Abdul Quddus Gangohi and other such compilations. All these contributed to the evolution of a common culture in India. This produced a new mystical terminology and their ideas contained in them took an identical course. The mutual use of large number of Hindi and Persian words, phrases, idioms and similes in the Bhakti and Sufi literature show the extent of foreign influence on Indian culture and vice-versa.5

There has been close contact, very often cordial between the Sufis and Indian Yogis. Gorakh’s cult was an attempt to reconcile Buddhism and Sufism. It adopted a way in between the two. If Sufis made their converts from among the Yogis, a number of Sufis became Yogis also.6 The Chisti Sufis held discourses with Siddhas and Yogis who made frequent visits to the Jamaat Khana at Multan and Delhi.7

It is significant that many of the khanqahs of early Muslim Sufis in India were established outside the old cities, in the midst of the settlements of the poor. The liberal and secular ideas of the Sufis, and their humanitarian attitude towards all, attracted particularly the depressed classes to the khanqahs. Besides the two basic socio-religious ideals, the unity of God and the unity of human being taught by the Sufis determined the extent of the discontent of the lower classes of people towards the established thought and practice in Hinduism. It was but natural that they were bound towards this new social order, so different from their own.8

The Sufi attitude towards the Hindus and Hinduism was based on understanding and adjustment, because it was believed that all religions were different roads leading to the same destination. Believing in ahimsa, living as vegetarian, and giving equal status to all, naturally increased the scope of their contact with the Hindus. Again the mutual use of a large number of Hindi and Persian words, phrases and idioms and similes in Sufi and Bhakti literatures shows the extent of social contact. Indian musical forms like Khayal and Thumri and the recitation of Hindi verses have been very much in use in the samas and khanqahs. Being a powerful means of spiritual satisfaction, the sama or qawwali became a popular institution of medieval mysticism and attracted higher intellects as well as common people of both the communities.

Sikhism and Islam
In the five hundred years of Sikhism, there has been many a debate on the Vedantic roots of Sikhism and also on its Semitic antecedents which came via Islam. There is also a second powerful argument which holds that, to look at Sikhism as a synthesis is to diminish it, for it is an entirely new revealed system. In fact both have seen something admirable in Sikhism with which they can identify.9

History tells us that the founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, was revered by both Muslims and Hindus of the time. He traveled widely to both Hindu and Muslim places of pilgrimage and his two constant companions throughout were Mardana, a Muslim and Bala, a Hindu. Mardana also composed some hymns which are included in the Sikh scriptures.

Many scholars have stressed the Islamic and Sufi influence on different religious movements of India but the impact of Islam and Sufism on Sikh religion and thought is yet to be properly assessed. The Islamic and Sufi concepts of the unity and sovereignty of God, unity of revelation and variety of Divine Scriptures have permeated to a great extent in the Sikh teachings. We find that Sikhism has made the best use of its acquaintance with Islam and Sufism to preach the religious views. The verses contained in the Sikh Holy scripture Guru Granth Sahib bear ample evidence that the Sikh Gurus were well versed in Islamic and Sufi learnings.

There is enough evidence that Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikh religion, had not only studied Islam but had close contacts with the contemporary Mullahs and Pirs when be engaged in religious debates on several occasions. It is well known that he had close contacts with the Muslims. There is every likelihood that he had imbibed some of the Islamic and Sufi doctrines particularly pertaining to devotion and love of God. Guru Nanak’s own religious ideals and representations could not but be somewhat influenced by Sufi thought and imagery as suggested by many of his verses. S A A Rizvi thinks that, as he belonged to a literate family, neatly placed in the service of Afghan governors of the Punjab, he must have listened to the verses of Rumi, Sa’di, Hafiz and Jami in his own environment and the thought of the great mystic poets would have aroused interest in divine love, grace and mercy.10

However, as far as his contemporary Kabir is concerned, there is no uncertainty. He was brought up in a Muslim family and was well acquainted with Islamic and Sufi teachings due to family tradition as well as his personal contacts with contemporary Sheikhs and Pirs.11

It is pertinent to mention here that Guru Nanak was well acquainted with Islamic teachings and Sufi doctrines. He had travelled extensively and visited many holy places. Moreover he had met and conversed with many Sufis of his time particularly Sheikh Sharaf of Panipat and Sheikh Ibrahim, the spiritual successor of Baba Fariduddin Ganj-i-Shakar. Therefore, his teachings are very close to the mystical doctrines preached by the Muslim Sufis. To quote Tara Chand, “How deep Guru Nanak’s debt is to Islam, it is hardly necessary to state, for it is so evident in his words and thoughts. Manifestly he was steeped in Sufi lore and the fact of the matter is that it is much harder to find how much exactly he drew from the Hindu scriptures.”12

Four hymns and 130 shloks of Baba Sheikh Farid have been included in the Guru Granth Sahib, compiled by 5th Guru, Arjan Dev.13 Although there is a dispute concerning the authorship of these shloks, it is beyond dispute that these shloks are the compositions of a Sufi and reflect the impact of Sufism on the Sikh religion.14

On the theoretical side, although Muslim concept of the unity of God resembles Guru Nanak’s monotheistic belief and his concept of solity of God, yet instead of replacing the Hindu immanental God by the transcendental God of the Muslims, he combined the two aspects in the same deity.15 One thing which is particularly Muslims or more correctly Semitic is the male character of God. The Guru never in serious thought represents God as female, as it is sometimes done in the Hindu sacred literature.

Guru Nanak’s God is merciful, but not so much as to say “God forgives even if there is no repentance on the part of the sinner” as mentioned in the Quran. Sometimes in the Quran, but never in Guru Granth Sahib, is God described as avenging. Similar ideas are met within Vedic hymns. God is mentioned to be Retributor and Wrathful. Guru Nanak declared, “My Lord is kind and always kind.” (mehrwan sahib mera mehrawan)

The ideas of Guru Nanak reveal his contact with two types of Muslims: The orthodox and the Sufi. The hypocrisy,16 intolerance and formalism of the former repelled Guru Nanak. His attacks against the Mullah and the importance which he attaches to externality are as severe as they are against the Brahmin.

The philosophy of Hukm is Semitic in general, but it is characteristically prominent in the Muslim thought. The very word Hukm is Quranic. Again Quranic ideas like : ‘All people are a single nation (2-213), and people are naught but a single nation’ (10-9) found expression in Guru Nanak’s words like: All men are of the same caste and that we are all equal, no high and low, all brothers, no friends or foes.

Just as in mosque, the ideal of brotherhood is triumphant, ‘the beggar, the sweeper, the prince worship side by side’; similarly in a gurdwara all social superiority or inferiority is set at naught.17 The orthodox belief that Mohammad was the prophet of God, did not appeal to Guru Nanak. He said if there was one prophet than there were millions like him. When a Qazi asked Guru Nanak to have faith in one God and His one Rasul-Prophet, he said, ‘ Why to have faith in the latter who takes birth and dies, believe only in the one who is omnipresent.18

The narrow-mindedness and the intolerance of this school, led Nanak to say the opposite: that all religions were true only if they were to be sincerely lived, and not hypocritically boasted of. Allah and Ram, mosque and temple did not differ in essence. So much so that the Sixth Guru got a mosque constructed for the Muslims. The first Guru did not object on principle to say prayers in a mosque, but he could not join the group as the leader was not sincere in his prayers.19

It is no coincidence that the Islamic scholars understood Guru Nanak much better than Hindu scholars. Because of Nanak’s crusade against false rituals, the Pandits felt danger to their khir-puri and called him a kuraiya, a corruptor. Muslims were more liberal in understanding Nanak. Many Pirs and Fakirs made very close relations and understanding with the house of Nanak. Foundation stone of Har Mandir in Amritsar, the sanctum sanctorum of the Sikhs, was laid by Mian Mir, a Muslim Pir of great repute.20

The only difficulty Guru Nanak had in his encounter with the Muslim saints, scholars and sages was that most of them would not believe that a non-Muslim and particularly a man born in a Hindu family could be an enlightened man of supreme revelation. But as soon as they came to know that he was more staunch a monotheist than any Muslim or Jew, and he did not believe in idolatry, their attitude changed and most of their differences disappeared.21

Guru Nanak took from Quran and Sufi literature a good many terms and symbolic expressions, like sidak, sabar, hukm, nadir, mehar, karam ( grace), etc. The striking resemblance between some of the utterances in the Quran and his writings shows that he had studied Islamic source books thoroughly. He tells us how one should be a true Muslim, and what is shariat and kalma for him.

Where was so much Islamic literature available to Guru Nanak? It is not difficult to answer this question. Guru Nanak worked as Modi (Granary Officer) of Daulat Khan Lodhi, Governor of Punjab at Sultanpur, for over ten years. Here was available to him the library of Daulat Khan’s son Ghazi Khan, a young man of very scholarly taste. This library was at that time the biggest library in India housing very rare manuscripts on Islamic literature, and scholars came from far and near to consult rare books. Guru Nanak had access to this library for all the years he lived in Sultanpur. That accounts for his profound knowledge of Islamic history and doctrines.22

Sikhism and Sufism
More positive in content was the exchange of ideas which took place between the Sikh Gurus and Muslim Sufis. The Sufis are the followers of the mystic and emotional side of the teachings of the great Prophet’s religion. Guru Nanak had personal relationship with some well known Sufis, the verses of one of whom are recorded in Guru Granth Sahib. Muin-ud-Din Chisti of Sistan came to Delhi in 1192 AD along with the army of Shihabuddin Ghauri. Three years later he went to Ajmer which became the first centre of Chisti order in India.

Guru Nanak met Baba Farid II, who was the 13th spiritual successor of First Sheikh Farid Shakarganj. There is a fusion of Advaitic Bhakti and Sufism in Sikhism. Just as there are stages in the spiritual uplift of a Sufi, similarly Guru Nanak also speaks in his Japu Ji of five steps, in the spiritual progress of man. Singing of the praises of God, music and free kitchen are some of the common practices among the Sufis and the Sikhs.

Our purpose of the comparative survey of Sikhism is to show that if we say that Sikhism is the branch of this or that religion is to shut our eyes to the multifarious trends of thought originating from these sources and contributing to the general atmosphere in which the founders of Sikhism flourished. Just as the mere presence of the ideas of transmigration of souls and the law of Karma should not make us think that Sikhism in nothing but Hinduism; similarly its stern monotheistic character should not persuade some scholars to say that Guru Nanak was a Mohammadan.

Thus we find that Sikhism was not only deeply influenced but it also made the best use of its acquaintance with Islam and Sufism to preach the religious views. Guru Nanak’s quatrains bear ample evidence of his being well versed in Islamic and Sufi learning. In Sikh religion, the impact of Islam and Sufism seems to be deeper than the founders of other religious sects. The fact of the matter is the Sikh religious teachings are so much influenced by the Islamic teachings and Sufi doctrines that it can never be understood without a good knowledge of Islam and Sufism.​

~~~

FOOTNOTES AND REFERENCES​

1 Sher Singh, Philosophy of Sikhism, rpt. (Amritsar, 1993), pp. 114-15.

2 In the time of Sultan Sikandar Lodi, a Brahmin is reported to have been so well-versed in Islamic learning that he taught Islamic precepts of the Muslims. K.A. Nizami, Some Aspects of Religion and Politics in India during the Thirteenth Century, (Delhi, 1978), p. 237.

3 Aziz Ahmad, Studies in Islamic Culture in Indian Environment, (Oxford, 1964), pp. 105-107.

4 Tara Chand, Influence of Islam on Indian Culture, (Allahabad, 1963), p. 217.

5 Shihabuddin Iraqi, Bhakti Movement in Medieval India, (Aligarh, 2009), pp. 245-46. One important convert was Jaipal or Ajaipal, Prithviraj’s preceptor, converted to Islam by Khwaja Muinuddin Chishti. M.T. Titus, Indian Islam, (Delhi, 1979), p.44; T.W. Arnold, The Preaching of Islam, ( London, 1896),p. 281; A typical Hindu-Muslim cult of pirs also developed in northern and central India. Gugga Pir, supposed to have been converted to Islam by Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti, was popular mostly in eastern Punjab as a protector against snake-bite.

6 Amir Hasan Sijzi, Fuwaid-ul-Fawad, ( Luclnow, 1894), pp.59-60, 404-05, 417-18.

7 Shihabuddin Iraqi, op. cit., pp. 249-50.

8 Ibid., pp. 252-53

9 I.J. Singh, ‘Tolerance in Religion: How Sikhs view the other Religions’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, December, 2003,p.46

10 S.A.A. Rizvi, “Indian Sufism and Guru Nanak” in Perspectives on Guru Nanak, (ed.) Harbans Singh, pp. 200-01.

11 Ghulam Sarwar, Khazinat-al Asfiya, vol. I, p. 445, as cited by Hafiz Md. Tahir Ali, Influence of Islam and Sufism on Prannath’s Religious Movement, p. 126, fn.4.

12 Tara Chand, op. cit., p. 176.

13 Surinder Singh Kohli, A Critical Study of Adi Granth, p.2; In Guru Granth Sahib, there are four pads ( in Rag Asa and Rag Suhi) and 130 shloks bearing the name of Shiakh Farid. See Macauliffe, The Sikh Religion, rpt., vol. IV, ( Delhi, 1993), pp. 391-414.

14 K.A. Nizami, Life and Times of Shaikh Farid-u’d Din Ganj-i-Shakar, p. 122.

15 Khaja Khan, The Philosophy of Islam, (Madras, 1903) p. V.

16 Sher Singh, op. cit., pp. 115-.116

17 Ibid., p. 116.

18 Macauliffe, op. cit., Vol. I, pp 102, 121, 123.

19 Sher Singh, op. cit., p. 118.

20 Trilochan Singh, ‘Guru Nanak’s Approach to Contemporary Philosophies’, The Sikh Review, Calcutta, pp. 9-10

21 J.S. Kohli, ‘Guru Nanak’s Footprints in Islamic World’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, May, 2006, p.30.

22 Ibid., p. 10.​

 

[Stewie]

The narrative Sikhism was somehow invented by Hindus to fight Islam is a recent invention of Hindustva brigade. There is absolutely zero truth in it. Sikh gurus have always had a very cordial and spiritual connection with Muslim Sufi saints of Punjab. Mian Mir Sahib had a profound connection with a lot of Sikh Gurus, inspite of the tyranny of the moghul emperors.

Saint Hazrat Mian Mir - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

www.sikhiwiki.org

The Sikhism-Islam connection is above and beyond the tyranny and oppression of any monarchs ruling India in history. The political conflicts aside, Sikhism draws its inspiration of monotheism from Islam. These are well known facts which Sikh academics and experts acknowledge in the link I shared above.

 

[Stewie]

It is very interesting that a Bengali Hindu is trying to educate a Punjabi about the history between Sikhs and Muslims in Punjab. Such sophomoric attempts are rather amusing.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Waqf Boards manage approximately 8,70,000 properties covering around 9,40,000 acres.

How exactly did teh WAQF board get ownership of the properties? did they purchase them? or simply squatted and said its ours?

if they purchased them, what was the source of the income to acquire large real estate?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

It was triggered when Islamists decided to torch down the train carrying Hindu pilgrims. If this kind of thing happens again in future,

Good to see your true colors. Fine then don't shed crocodile tears when someone justifies Mughals suppression of Hindus after all they too always provide a reason to them for being harsh according to your above logic.

 

[Rajdeep]

Good to see your true colors. Fine then don't shed crocodile tears when someone justifies Mughals suppression of Hindus after all they too always provide a reason to them for being harsh according to your above logic.

What is the true colour in it? If someone attacks Hindu, they will attack back and riots will happen. It had happen in the past and will happen again in future if someone dares. Think that is only fair.

You are free to justify Mughals but the comparison is moot as Hindus at that time didnt go to Afghanistan to attack Mughals first. What Mughals did is exactly what Israel is doing now. You supporting the former and shedding crocodile tears for the other is ironical.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

What is the true colour in it? If someone attacks Hindu, they will attack back and riots will happen. It had happen in the past and will happen again in future if someone dares. Think that is only fair.

You are free to justify Mughals but the comparison is moot as Hindus at that time didnt go to Afghanistan to attack Mughals first. What Mughals did is exactly what Israel is doing now. You supporting the former and shedding crocodile tears for the other is ironical.

OK the same will happens with Hindus if they dare to attack Muslims in India as Owaisi said they need only 15 minutes. This is the Crux of your above argument. Happy now?

 

[CricketCartoons]

OK the same will happens with Hindus if they dare to attack Muslims in India as Owaisi said they need only 15 minutes. This is the Crux of your above argument. Happy now?

Yes, we should agree to this deal. If Hindus attack muslims, muslims are free to retaliate. And when muslims attack hindus, hindus should also be free to retaliate. We will judge both by the same standards.

So why do hindus in BD and PK face attacks. Have they ever attacked the majority community there?

 

[uppercut]

The Sikhism is well known to have been influenced heavily by Muslims and Islam

Do you want to explain why Waheguru Nanak jis picture can be found in every nook and corner of the World?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yes, we should agree to this deal. If Hindus attack muslims, muslims are free to retaliate. And when muslims attack hindus, hindus should also be free to retaliate. We will judge both by the same standards.

So why do hindus in BD and PK face attacks. Have they ever attacked the majority community there?

That is the difference.

When a riot happens in India, both Hindus and Muslims die. Many times, the riots are instigated by Muslims. That means they have the courage, numbers and confidence to do it.

As you have pointed out, I am interested in seeing whether any Hindu group has ever started a riot in BD or Pak. Were Hindus able to kill Muslims in BD and Pak ala Godhra style?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Yes, we should agree to this deal. If Hindus attack muslims, muslims are free to retaliate. And when muslims attack hindus, hindus should also be free to retaliate. We will judge both by the same standards.

So why do hindus in BD and PK face attacks. Have they ever attacked the majority community there?

Attacks by Hindu minority on majority has also happened in BD and other countries.

Loading…

www.benarnews.org

And Tamil Tigers were chiefly Hindus who massacred a lot of Sri Lankans. So bottom line is governments are there to stop the riots not fuel them

 

[uppercut]

...

 

[Red-Indian]

How exactly did teh WAQF board get ownership of the properties? did they purchase them? or simply squatted and said its ours?

if they purchased them, what was the source of the income to acquire large real estate?

Other than hysterical alarmism, do you have a few examples of property owned (not claimed) by Wakf boards that have been acquired by squatting? Any court decisions against them?

As far as I'm aware, all Wakf properties have been acquired either by donations from Muslims or by endowments from monarchs. Of course it's terribly managed - both through incompetence as well as corruption but that's a different discussion.

Very similar to Hindu temple property. Luckily, a lot of Hindu temple administration and generated/donated wealth has been taken over by the government so that's better managed.

I'd actually prefer to see wakf properties also taken under effective government control but the fairer solution is probably to give Hindu religious bodies control over the property and income of the temples. It's after all religious money.

 

[big_gamer007]

And now many Muslims in India can't profess their religion openly with special reference to BJP states

I don’t understand why people who don’t live in India state such comments like they are facts.

As someone who doesn’t live in India you should be asking questions to those living in India rather than making such sweeping statements. That’s how you will learn and grow in life in general.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I don’t understand why people who don’t live in India state such comments like they are facts.

As someone who doesn’t live in India you should be asking questions to those living in India rather than making such sweeping statements. That’s how you will learn and grow in life in general.

I have learnt it from Indians here as they keep passing sweeping comments regarding Pakistan and on the veracity of this statement it has nuggets of truth in it and I can quote some references for that too.

 

[big_gamer007]

Indeed.

Bangladeshi people at least condemn their bad apples.

Many Indians don't condemn Israeli bombings of Palestinians, Kashmiri human rights violations, cow vigilante mobs etc. I hope they will have a self-reflection and condemn when they see something unjust.

Weren’t you the same person who was first denying any ill doings towards Hindus when the news of Hasinas departure first broke?

Your first instinct was to dismiss the news and only when irrefutable evidence was posted you got cornered you changed your stance. Even then you and some other BD poster still tried to twist it and denied religious angle or blamed it on Hasinas party or portrayed it as “isolated” incidents.

When you can’t accept the reality yourself in your own country what use does your condemnation achieve? It’s just hollow and face saving so you don’t get called out on an online Pakistani forums by people with higher intellect and morals.

For the three cases you put:
1. Israel-Palestine issue - Majority Indians are not aware of the reasons for the conflict nor do they care about it. We don’t expect common Israelis or Palestinians to condemn or even know about the atrocities against Indians so why does anyone expect us? Still baffling to see why Muslims feel Indians should relate to other Muslims or Jews halfway across the world.
Tbh Had the Muslims around the world learned to mind their own business this conflict would have been resolved ages ago.

2. Kashmiri human rights - Same reason as the point I made above about your first instinct of dismissing atrocities against BD Hindus.

3. Cow vigilante lynching - Every sane Indian condemned it and the only ones who actually supported it are either the ones who did it or part of the same set of mindset. I don’t think you will find anyone here on PP with that mindset so moot point quoting that example here.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Cow vigilante lynching - Every sane Indian condemned it and the only ones who actually supported it are either the ones who did it or part of the same set of mindset. I don’t think you will find anyone here on PP with that mindset so moot point quoting that example here.

Actually I do know some posters here who justify it as this "hurts" Hindu feelings according to them. CC and CJ

 

[big_gamer007]

I have learnt it from Indians here as they keep passing sweeping comments regarding Pakistan and on the veracity of this statement it has nuggets of truth in it and I can quote some references for that too.

1. So if an Indian PPer commits a crime you will follow in their footsteps? I mean from your post it seems you don’t appreciate Indian posters making sweeping remarks about Pakistan with half cooked knowledge and yet you are doing the same.

2. For every article you can quote there will be at least a hundred million instance of a Muslim openly practising his religion in that very moment.

You made a sweeping remark “Muslims can’t practice their religion openly in India”

 

[big_gamer007]

Actually I do know some posters here who justify it as this "hurts" Hindu feelings according to them. CC and CJ

CC is trolling most of the time and one doesn’t know which of his posts are actually serious and which are just to rile up people.

CJ might have initially given some excuses about the whole attack but once it was proven, he would have probably disappeared from thread, however, if you ask him point blankly now he will condemn it.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Attacks by Hindu minority on majority has also happened in BD and other countries.

Loading…

www.benarnews.org

And Tamil Tigers were chiefly Hindus who massacred a lot of Sri Lankans. So bottom line is governments are there to stop the riots not fuel them

For the BD incident:
According to CCTV footage seen by police, the two absconders were the ones who allegedly led the mob – Asaduzzaman, a Muslim, for whom police gave one name, and a Hindu man, Ajit Kumar. Both suspects are local council members, and Asaduzzaman is the chairman. so secular violence, as led by politicians, one muslim and one hindu.

What about Pakistan?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

CC is trolling most of the time and one doesn’t know which of his posts are actually serious and which are just to rile up people.

CJ might have initially given some excuses about the whole attack but once it was proven, he would have probably disappeared from thread, however, if you ask him point blankly now he will condemn it.

You are a very reasonable man so plz don't defend their deliberate attacks as trolls and on my previous comment i have reconciled that with ground reality.

 

[big_gamer007]

You are a very reasonable man so plz don't defend their deliberate attacks as trolls and on my previous comment i have reconciled that with ground reality.

Not defending either of them, I don’t know either of them nor do I know their intention or beliefs.

I was just giving my observations from their posts I have read in the last decade or so.
Believe it or not when I started posting on PP 8-10 years ago people used to think CC was Pakistani. His trolling style was total opposite to what it is today, it’s like how Mamoon has recently turned anti India after being considered an Indian for well over a decade.

For all I know both CC and CJ might be BJP IT cell accounts used by multiple people and there’s no single real person running the account.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The narrative Sikhism was somehow invented by Hindus to fight Islam is a recent invention of Hindustva brigade. There is absolutely zero truth in it. Sikh gurus have always had a very cordial and spiritual connection with Muslim Sufi saints of Punjab. Mian Mir Sahib had a profound connection with a lot of Sikh Gurus, inspite of the tyranny of the moghul emperors.

Saint Hazrat Mian Mir - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

www.sikhiwiki.org

The Sikhism-Islam connection is above and beyond the tyranny and oppression of any monarchs ruling India in history. The political conflicts aside, Sikhism draws its inspiration of monotheism from Islam. These are well known facts which Sikh academics and experts acknowledge in the link I shared above.

This is a joke.

All Sikh gurus were Hindu Khatris.

There was a tradition in parts of North Indian Hindus to send the eldest son to be part of the Sikh Khalsa.

Muslims killed various Sikh Gurus and Sikh heroes, descrated Har Mandir Sahib.

This association of Islam with Sikhism is a new invention of Khalistanis.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It is very interesting that a Bengali Hindu is trying to educate a Punjabi about the history between Sikhs and Muslims in Punjab. Such sophomoric attempts are rather amusing.

Sikhs in India have little love for Muslim Punjabis. Many migrated to India from Punjab during partition and suffered personal losses.

 

[Stewie]

This is a joke.

All Sikh gurus were Hindu Khatris.

There was a tradition in parts of North Indian Hindus to send the eldest son to be part of the Sikh Khalsa.

Muslims killed various Sikh Gurus and Sikh heroes, descrated Har Mandir Sahib.

This association of Islam with Sikhism is a new invention of Khalistanis.

This is not a joke. This is history, the true real history. My forefathers migrated from Indian Punjab and my grandfather used to tell me stories of Sikhs and their closeness with Muslims.

Now Hindustva movement is trying to steal Sikhs and Jains as part of Hindu Dharmic religion but the truth is that Sikhism came into being taking various parts of Hindu and Muslim mystic cultures. The first source I used are educated academics holding doctorates and PhDs teaching in Chandiragh and not Canada.

Why is it so hard to believe the Sikhism was inspired by both Islam and Hinduism? I know the pushback from your sort is probably because it goes against the Hindustva narrative of Sikhism is a part of Dharmic faith, which it might be in a way, but let us not deny that it got a lot of its motivation, particularly in the theory of Omkar or oneness of God from Islam.

 

[HalBass9]

Sikhs in India have little love for Muslim Punjabis. Many migrated to India from Punjab during partition and suffered personal losses.

Time and time again, you keep proving that India is stuck in an endless loop, perpetually reliving 1947.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Good to see your true colors. Fine then don't shed crocodile tears when someone justifies Mughals suppression of Hindus after all they too always provide a reason to them for being harsh according to your above logic.

First of all no hindu expects any sympathy or even understanding from Pakistanis in this matter.

Pakistanis widely consider these tyrants as heroes.

 

[Stewie]

Sikhs in India have little love for Muslim Punjabis. Many migrated to India from Punjab during partition and suffered personal losses.

They make their pilgrimage and get along fine with Muslim Punjabis in Nankana sahib, kartarpur, etc. I have seen it with my own eyes. There are always lingering emotions which exist within Muslims as well. But the question is why do you think what happened in 1947, can be used to prove that Sikhism did not derive some of its inspiration from Islam in the late 15th century?

 

[cricketjoshila]

This is not a joke. This is history, the true real history. My forefathers migrated from Indian Punjab and my grandfather used to tell me stories of Sikhs and their closeness with Muslims.

Now Hindustva movement is trying to steal Sikhs and Jains as part of Hindu Dharmic religion but the truth is that Sikhism came into being taking various parts of Hindu and Muslim mystic cultures. The first source I used are educated academics holding doctorates and PhDs teaching in Chandiragh and not Canada.

Why is it so hard to believe the Sikhism was inspired by both Islam and Hinduism? I know the pushback from your sort is probably because it goes against the Hindustva narrative of Sikhism is a part of Dharmic faith, which it might be in a way, but let us not deny that it got a lot of its motivation, particularly in the theory of Omkar or oneness of God from Islam.

Lolfer. 100s of 1000s of Sikhs were killed by Muslims in Punjab.

These kind of stories are dime a dozen in East Bengal and so is the massacre of Hindus by Muslims.

Sikhs came into being from Hindu Khatris and its history is filled with its conflict with Muslims.

That article has mainly muslim sources as its source.

There is a reason why Jains and Sikhs are allowed to enter Hindu temples.

There is a reason why Sikh Gurus and Maharaja Ranjit Singhji frequented Hindu temples not Mosques.

Remind me what Maharaja Ranjit Singhji did to the mosque in Lahore? May be he knew less about Sikhism than your Phd guide.

 

[CricketCartoons]

They make their pilgrimage and get along fine with Muslim Punjabis in Nankana sahib, kartarpur, etc. I have seen it with my own eyes. There are always lingering emotions which exist within Muslims as well. But the question is why do you think what happened in 1947, can be used to prove that Sikhism did not derive some of its inspiration from Islam in the late 15th century?

1947 was not an outlier, it was continuation of the NORM.

If Hindus drive away muslims, they will also be nice to muslims who want to visit india. Pakistanis have secured their victory. This grace comes easily after victory.

 

[Stewie]

Lolfer. 100s of 1000s of Sikhs were killed by Muslims in Punjab.

These kind of stories are dime a dozen in East Bengal and so is the massacre of Hindus by Muslims.

Sikhs came into being from Hindu Khatris and its history is filled with its conflict with Muslims.

That article has mainly muslim sources as its source.

There is a reason why Jains and Sikhs are allowed to enter Hindu temples.

There is a reason why Sikh Gurus and Maharaja Ranjit Singhji frequented Hindu temples not Mosques.

 

[cricketjoshila]

They make their pilgrimage and get along fine with Muslim Punjabis in Nankana sahib, kartarpur, etc. I have seen it with my own eyes. There are always lingering emotions which exist within Muslims as well. But the question is why do you think what happened in 1947, can be used to prove that Sikhism did not derive some of its inspiration from Islam in the late 15th century?

Lingering emotions.

They make pilgrimage because that's where their place of pilgrimage lies.

Derived inspiration from Islam but Sikh Gurus frequented temples, fought against Muslims, many were killed by Muslims and Maharaja Ranjit Singhji converted Mosque to a horse stable.

 

[Stewie]

Lolfer. 100s of 1000s of Sikhs were killed by Muslims in Punjab.

These kind of stories are dime a dozen in East Bengal and so is the massacre of Hindus by Muslims.

Sikhs came into being from Hindu Khatris and its history is filled with its conflict with Muslims.

That article has mainly muslim sources as its source.

There is a reason why Jains and Sikhs are allowed to enter Hindu temples.

There is a reason why Sikh Gurus and Maharaja Ranjit Singhji frequented Hindu temples not Mosques.

Remind me what Maharaja Ranjit Singhji did to the mosque in Lahore? May be he knew less about Sikhism than your Phd guide.

100s of 1000s of Punjabi Muslims were killed by Sikhs in 1947 as well.

We hear the same stories you guys do where there we are the victims. the truth is there were casualties on both sides. You cannot claim Hindus and Sikhs were absolutely guilt freeing this regard.

Who said Sikhs did not come into being from Hindu Khatris? The source I shared is very clear on that subject.

Sikhs have visited masjids, there is documented evidence of it. If I provide it you will dismiss it as Muslim sources. LOL

None of your arguments prove a counterpoint to my points:
1- The source I used is the website of a respected Sikh academic institution in Chandigarh.
2- what happened in 1947 or Ranjit Singh, does not in anyways disprove that Sikhism was inspired and motivated in part by Muslim sufis of Punjab and Islam at the time of its inception.

I think human brains should be capable of delineating between the origins of Sikhism and the events that transpired afterwards. Or maybe I am expecting too much from some people here.

 

[Stewie]

Lingering emotions.

They make pilgrimage because that's where their place of pilgrimage lies.

Derived inspiration from Islam but Sikh Gurus frequented temples, fought against Muslims, many were killed by Muslims and Maharaja Ranjit Singhji converted Mosque to a horse stable.

None of that dissproves the fact Sikhism derived its motivation from Islam at the time of its inception. I keep saying that but apparently comprehension is not your strong suit.

 

[CricketCartoons]

100s of 1000s of Punjabi Muslims were killed by Sikhs in 1947 as well.

We hear the same stories you guys do where there we are the victims. the truth is there were casualties on both sides. You cannot claim Hindus and Sikhs were absolutely guilt freeing this regard.

No monkey balancing here. Muslims secured a homeland for themselves. Sikhs didn't get anything, even some of their holy sites went to Pakistan. Many sikhs didn't want to leave Pakistan, they didn't care who the rulers were. But the muslims turned on them. Driving them out of their homeland.

And now after becoming victorious and the outcome they wanted, now it is time to show kindness that sikhs and punjabi muslims are brothers. we are same people yaara.

 

[cricketjoshila]

None of that dissproves the fact Sikhism derived its motivation from Islam at the time of its inception. I keep saying that but apparently comprehension is not your strong suit.

Why didn't Sikh gurus say so? Why didn't Ranjit Singhji say so?

Why did Sikh Gurus frequented temples and not Mosques?

Why did Ranjit Singhji make a stable in the shahi mosque in Lahore?

Can you name a few mosques that Sikh gurus or Ranjit Singhji donated to?

Why is Hari mentioned so many times in Guru Granth Sahib?

Why did flags of Ranjit Singhji have pic of Hindu gods?

Next you will claim Hindu Bhakti culture of mediaeval times was influenced by Sufis.

 

[HalBass9]

None of that dissproves the fact Sikhism derived its motivation from Islam at the time of its inception. I keep saying that but apparently comprehension is not your strong suit.

Have you noticed that whenever this person—or any Hindutva supporter, for that matter, is challenged, they always veer off on a tangent instead of addressing the original point?

And the person you quoted has a peculiar habit of responding with one-liner questions whenever they can’t counter the original argument. It’s as if they think throwing out a quick quip will somehow make it look like they’ve actually made a valid counterpoint.

 

[cricketjoshila]

100s of 1000s of Punjabi Muslims were killed by Sikhs in 1947 as well.

We hear the same stories you guys do where there we are the victims. the truth is there were casualties on both sides. You cannot claim Hindus and Sikhs were absolutely guilt freeing this regard.

Who said Sikhs did not come into being from Hindu Khatris? The source I shared is very clear on that subject.

Sikhs have visited masjids, there is documented evidence of it. If I provide it you will dismiss it as Muslim sources. LOL

None of your arguments prove a counterpoint to my points:
1- The source I used is the website of a respected Sikh academic institution in Chandigarh.
2- what happened in 1947 or Ranjit Singh, does not in anyways disprove that Sikhism was inspired and motivated in part by Muslim sufis of Punjab and Islam at the time of its inception.

I think human brains should be capable of delineating between the origins of Sikhism and the events that transpired afterwards. Or maybe I am expecting too much from some people here.

Ranjit Singhji and Sikh Gurus know more about Sikhism than any institute anywhere.

Quoting mainly muslim sources to write something doesn't make it true.

Origins of Sikhism is delienated by the teaching of the 10 Gurus. Not by some institution in Chandigarh.

Hindus and Sikhs didn't demand separation. Hindus and Sikhs didn't resort to violence like direct action day. They reacted to what was happening to their brethren in Pakistan.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Have you noticed that whenever this person—or any Hindutva supporter, for that matter, is challenged, they always veer off on a tangent instead of addressing the original point?

And the person you quoted has a peculiar habit of responding with one-liner questions whenever they can’t counter the original argument. It’s as if they think throwing out a quick quip will somehow make it look like they’ve actually made a valid counterpoint.

Name one Sikh Guru who said in his teachings that Sikhism comes from Islam.

But i can name various gurus and their fight with Muslims or assassination with Muslims.

 

[Stewie]

Why didn't Sikh gurus say so? Why didn't Ranjit Singhji say so?

Why did Sikh Gurus frequented temples and not Mosques?

Why did Ranjit Singhji make a stable in the shahi mosque in Lahore?

Can you name a few mosques that Sikh gurus or Ranjit Singhji donated to?

Why is Hari mentioned so many times in Guru Granth Sahib?

Why did flags of Ranjit Singhji have pic of Hindu gods?

Next you will claim Hindu Bhakti culture of mediaeval times was influenced by Sufis.

Hinduism and Islam are miles apart and why would I claim something that's not true. I leave that up to HIndustva brigade who want to claim ownership of Sikhism and want to deny Sikhism its own distinct and unique identity which is inspired by both Islam and Hinduism and has been prove to be so by academics and religious experts both Sikh and otherwise.

All your other questions are insipid, churlish and moronic because you keep using the argument of political differences, balwa, this that between Sikhs and Muslims as recent as the last 200-300 or so years and these events do not predate the inception of Sikhism. None of these arguments disprove the connection.

Maybe you can tell me why Sikhs believe in One God and not multiple dieties as Hinduism if they are so influenced by Hinduism or are somehow connected to Dharmic faiths? Where did they get that motivation of One God? Do you think that institute in Chandigarh is an undercover KHalistani organization operating right under Indian governments nose?

 

[Stewie]

These are all all undercover Muslims and Pakistanis or worse Khalistanis?

Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh

Influence of Islam and Sufism on Sikhism

Dr Manjit Singh Ahluwalia

Islam exerted a considerable influence on Indian life, culture and religion during the middle ages in the same way just as Christianity and system of modern education is playing an important part in the religious and cultural development of modern India. During medieval period, it is a fact that Islam, if not so much as a faith, but at least as a State religion, played an important role in the development of Sikhism.

Islam and Sufism have influenced most of the religious movements of India from thirteenth century onwards. Indians, mostly religious minded and inclined towards mysticism, warmly welcomed the mystical teachings of Islam. The egalitarian and humanistic attitude of the Sufis attracted the Hindu masses who were groaning under the pressure of casteism and untouchability in their own society. All these factors led to the growth of Sufism by leaps and bounds and thus profoundly influenced the Indian society and culture.

Like Buddhism and Siddhism, Islam influenced Sikhism more on practical side than on the side of its theoretical teachings. For instance, there are two modes of worship in Islam: Individual and congregational. The Hindu worship was mostly individual. Besides the individual prayers, a Sikh has also to join the congregation in a Gurudwara twice a day, at sunrise and sunset. Again the way in which the holy book, Guru Granth Sahib is wrapped in clothes and when opened, but not read, is covered by a sheet of cloth has also been the fashion for the holy Quran. The most important resemblance between the two scriptures is in the headlines of every composition contained therein. The Mulmantra of Guru Granth Sahib and the Bismillah of Quran, are both dedicated to One Merciful God and are placed in the beginning of every chapter. They resemble both in content and form.1

Most of the founders of religious sects (including Sikhism) made the best use of their knowledge of Sufism and used the Sufi terminologies to preach their views. This undoubtedly helped in stimulating the Indian religious movements. Influence of Sufism is quite evident in the teachings of Guru Nanak, Kabir, Dadu and other saints of Bhakti movement in medieval India. The early exposition of spiritual thought in the Upanishads formed an ideological bridge between Vaishnavism and Sufism. At the same time, the Sufis were so impressed by Indian thought and practices that many of them adopted these ideas. Similarly some Kayasthas, Khatris, Kashmiri Pandits and Sindhi Amils adopted Muslim culture, cultivated Persian language and literature, and participated in the administration of Islamic states during the medieval period.2

During the rule of Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin, the Kashmiri Pandits, especially the Sapru clan took up the study of Persian. This was the only group of Brahmins who took to Muslim culture. The Amils of Sindh were a hereditary caste of government servants. After the incorporation of Sindh in Delhi Sultanate, they turned to the study of Persian. Their Sindhi literature remained fully integrated with Muslim traditions and they wrote Sindhi in Arabic script.3

Tara Chand rightly observes, ‘ Hindus offered sweets at Muslim shrines, consulted the Quran as an oracle, kept its copies to ward off the evil influence, and celebrated Muslim feasts. The Muslims responded likewise.’4

The Sufis and Bhakti saints made a departure from orthodox Islam and Hinduism.
However, while the Sufis essentially remained within the fold of Islam, the Bhakti mystics, particularly those of Nirguna Marga, challenged all religious norms, including the religious scriptures, incarnation theory, and idol worship. All fought for an egalitarian society, in which there should be respect, a sense of human dignity and fraternity for all without distinction.

There were many Sufi Sheikhs and Bhakti Gurus who were equally popular among the Hindus and Muslims and there was an effective literary and cultural interaction between the two communities. The devotional form of Bhakti literature, including the Guru Granth Sahib, the Panchvani and the Niryanpanti, which include the sayings of a large number of religious thinkers are similar to the Rushd Nama of Abdul Quddus Gangohi and other such compilations. All these contributed to the evolution of a common culture in India. This produced a new mystical terminology and their ideas contained in them took an identical course. The mutual use of large number of Hindi and Persian words, phrases, idioms and similes in the Bhakti and Sufi literature show the extent of foreign influence on Indian culture and vice-versa.5

There has been close contact, very often cordial between the Sufis and Indian Yogis. Gorakh’s cult was an attempt to reconcile Buddhism and Sufism. It adopted a way in between the two. If Sufis made their converts from among the Yogis, a number of Sufis became Yogis also.6 The Chisti Sufis held discourses with Siddhas and Yogis who made frequent visits to the Jamaat Khana at Multan and Delhi.7

It is significant that many of the khanqahs of early Muslim Sufis in India were established outside the old cities, in the midst of the settlements of the poor. The liberal and secular ideas of the Sufis, and their humanitarian attitude towards all, attracted particularly the depressed classes to the khanqahs. Besides the two basic socio-religious ideals, the unity of God and the unity of human being taught by the Sufis determined the extent of the discontent of the lower classes of people towards the established thought and practice in Hinduism. It was but natural that they were bound towards this new social order, so different from their own.8

The Sufi attitude towards the Hindus and Hinduism was based on understanding and adjustment, because it was believed that all religions were different roads leading to the same destination. Believing in ahimsa, living as vegetarian, and giving equal status to all, naturally increased the scope of their contact with the Hindus. Again the mutual use of a large number of Hindi and Persian words, phrases and idioms and similes in Sufi and Bhakti literatures shows the extent of social contact. Indian musical forms like Khayal and Thumri and the recitation of Hindi verses have been very much in use in the samas and khanqahs. Being a powerful means of spiritual satisfaction, the sama or qawwali became a popular institution of medieval mysticism and attracted higher intellects as well as common people of both the communities.

Sikhism and Islam
In the five hundred years of Sikhism, there has been many a debate on the Vedantic roots of Sikhism and also on its Semitic antecedents which came via Islam. There is also a second powerful argument which holds that, to look at Sikhism as a synthesis is to diminish it, for it is an entirely new revealed system. In fact both have seen something admirable in Sikhism with which they can identify.9

History tells us that the founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, was revered by both Muslims and Hindus of the time. He traveled widely to both Hindu and Muslim places of pilgrimage and his two constant companions throughout were Mardana, a Muslim and Bala, a Hindu. Mardana also composed some hymns which are included in the Sikh scriptures.

Many scholars have stressed the Islamic and Sufi influence on different religious movements of India but the impact of Islam and Sufism on Sikh religion and thought is yet to be properly assessed. The Islamic and Sufi concepts of the unity and sovereignty of God, unity of revelation and variety of Divine Scriptures have permeated to a great extent in the Sikh teachings. We find that Sikhism has made the best use of its acquaintance with Islam and Sufism to preach the religious views. The verses contained in the Sikh Holy scripture Guru Granth Sahib bear ample evidence that the Sikh Gurus were well versed in Islamic and Sufi learnings.

There is enough evidence that Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikh religion, had not only studied Islam but had close contacts with the contemporary Mullahs and Pirs when be engaged in religious debates on several occasions. It is well known that he had close contacts with the Muslims. There is every likelihood that he had imbibed some of the Islamic and Sufi doctrines particularly pertaining to devotion and love of God. Guru Nanak’s own religious ideals and representations could not but be somewhat influenced by Sufi thought and imagery as suggested by many of his verses. S A A Rizvi thinks that, as he belonged to a literate family, neatly placed in the service of Afghan governors of the Punjab, he must have listened to the verses of Rumi, Sa’di, Hafiz and Jami in his own environment and the thought of the great mystic poets would have aroused interest in divine love, grace and mercy.10

However, as far as his contemporary Kabir is concerned, there is no uncertainty. He was brought up in a Muslim family and was well acquainted with Islamic and Sufi teachings due to family tradition as well as his personal contacts with contemporary Sheikhs and Pirs.11

It is pertinent to mention here that Guru Nanak was well acquainted with Islamic teachings and Sufi doctrines. He had travelled extensively and visited many holy places. Moreover he had met and conversed with many Sufis of his time particularly Sheikh Sharaf of Panipat and Sheikh Ibrahim, the spiritual successor of Baba Fariduddin Ganj-i-Shakar. Therefore, his teachings are very close to the mystical doctrines preached by the Muslim Sufis. To quote Tara Chand, “How deep Guru Nanak’s debt is to Islam, it is hardly necessary to state, for it is so evident in his words and thoughts. Manifestly he was steeped in Sufi lore and the fact of the matter is that it is much harder to find how much exactly he drew from the Hindu scriptures.”12

Four hymns and 130 shloks of Baba Sheikh Farid have been included in the Guru Granth Sahib, compiled by 5th Guru, Arjan Dev.13 Although there is a dispute concerning the authorship of these shloks, it is beyond dispute that these shloks are the compositions of a Sufi and reflect the impact of Sufism on the Sikh religion.14

On the theoretical side, although Muslim concept of the unity of God resembles Guru Nanak’s monotheistic belief and his concept of solity of God, yet instead of replacing the Hindu immanental God by the transcendental God of the Muslims, he combined the two aspects in the same deity.15 One thing which is particularly Muslims or more correctly Semitic is the male character of God. The Guru never in serious thought represents God as female, as it is sometimes done in the Hindu sacred literature.

Guru Nanak’s God is merciful, but not so much as to say “God forgives even if there is no repentance on the part of the sinner” as mentioned in the Quran. Sometimes in the Quran, but never in Guru Granth Sahib, is God described as avenging. Similar ideas are met within Vedic hymns. God is mentioned to be Retributor and Wrathful. Guru Nanak declared, “My Lord is kind and always kind.” (mehrwan sahib mera mehrawan)

The ideas of Guru Nanak reveal his contact with two types of Muslims: The orthodox and the Sufi. The hypocrisy,16 intolerance and formalism of the former repelled Guru Nanak. His attacks against the Mullah and the importance which he attaches to externality are as severe as they are against the Brahmin.

The philosophy of Hukm is Semitic in general, but it is characteristically prominent in the Muslim thought. The very word Hukm is Quranic. Again Quranic ideas like : ‘All people are a single nation (2-213), and people are naught but a single nation’ (10-9) found expression in Guru Nanak’s words like: All men are of the same caste and that we are all equal, no high and low, all brothers, no friends or foes.

Just as in mosque, the ideal of brotherhood is triumphant, ‘the beggar, the sweeper, the prince worship side by side’; similarly in a gurdwara all social superiority or inferiority is set at naught.17 The orthodox belief that Mohammad was the prophet of God, did not appeal to Guru Nanak. He said if there was one prophet than there were millions like him. When a Qazi asked Guru Nanak to have faith in one God and His one Rasul-Prophet, he said, ‘ Why to have faith in the latter who takes birth and dies, believe only in the one who is omnipresent.18

The narrow-mindedness and the intolerance of this school, led Nanak to say the opposite: that all religions were true only if they were to be sincerely lived, and not hypocritically boasted of. Allah and Ram, mosque and temple did not differ in essence. So much so that the Sixth Guru got a mosque constructed for the Muslims. The first Guru did not object on principle to say prayers in a mosque, but he could not join the group as the leader was not sincere in his prayers.19

It is no coincidence that the Islamic scholars understood Guru Nanak much better than Hindu scholars. Because of Nanak’s crusade against false rituals, the Pandits felt danger to their khir-puri and called him a kuraiya, a corruptor. Muslims were more liberal in understanding Nanak. Many Pirs and Fakirs made very close relations and understanding with the house of Nanak. Foundation stone of Har Mandir in Amritsar, the sanctum sanctorum of the Sikhs, was laid by Mian Mir, a Muslim Pir of great repute.20

The only difficulty Guru Nanak had in his encounter with the Muslim saints, scholars and sages was that most of them would not believe that a non-Muslim and particularly a man born in a Hindu family could be an enlightened man of supreme revelation. But as soon as they came to know that he was more staunch a monotheist than any Muslim or Jew, and he did not believe in idolatry, their attitude changed and most of their differences disappeared.21

Guru Nanak took from Quran and Sufi literature a good many terms and symbolic expressions, like sidak, sabar, hukm, nadir, mehar, karam ( grace), etc. The striking resemblance between some of the utterances in the Quran and his writings shows that he had studied Islamic source books thoroughly. He tells us how one should be a true Muslim, and what is shariat and kalma for him.

Where was so much Islamic literature available to Guru Nanak? It is not difficult to answer this question. Guru Nanak worked as Modi (Granary Officer) of Daulat Khan Lodhi, Governor of Punjab at Sultanpur, for over ten years. Here was available to him the library of Daulat Khan’s son Ghazi Khan, a young man of very scholarly taste. This library was at that time the biggest library in India housing very rare manuscripts on Islamic literature, and scholars came from far and near to consult rare books. Guru Nanak had access to this library for all the years he lived in Sultanpur. That accounts for his profound knowledge of Islamic history and doctrines.22

Sikhism and Sufism
More positive in content was the exchange of ideas which took place between the Sikh Gurus and Muslim Sufis. The Sufis are the followers of the mystic and emotional side of the teachings of the great Prophet’s religion. Guru Nanak had personal relationship with some well known Sufis, the verses of one of whom are recorded in Guru Granth Sahib. Muin-ud-Din Chisti of Sistan came to Delhi in 1192 AD along with the army of Shihabuddin Ghauri. Three years later he went to Ajmer which became the first centre of Chisti order in India.

Guru Nanak met Baba Farid II, who was the 13th spiritual successor of First Sheikh Farid Shakarganj. There is a fusion of Advaitic Bhakti and Sufism in Sikhism. Just as there are stages in the spiritual uplift of a Sufi, similarly Guru Nanak also speaks in his Japu Ji of five steps, in the spiritual progress of man. Singing of the praises of God, music and free kitchen are some of the common practices among the Sufis and the Sikhs.

Our purpose of the comparative survey of Sikhism is to show that if we say that Sikhism is the branch of this or that religion is to shut our eyes to the multifarious trends of thought originating from these sources and contributing to the general atmosphere in which the founders of Sikhism flourished. Just as the mere presence of the ideas of transmigration of souls and the law of Karma should not make us think that Sikhism in nothing but Hinduism; similarly its stern monotheistic character should not persuade some scholars to say that Guru Nanak was a Mohammadan.

Thus we find that Sikhism was not only deeply influenced but it also made the best use of its acquaintance with Islam and Sufism to preach the religious views. Guru Nanak’s quatrains bear ample evidence of his being well versed in Islamic and Sufi learning. In Sikh religion, the impact of Islam and Sufism seems to be deeper than the founders of other religious sects. The fact of the matter is the Sikh religious teachings are so much influenced by the Islamic teachings and Sufi doctrines that it can never be understood without a good knowledge of Islam and Sufism.

~~~

FOOTNOTES AND REFERENCES

1 Sher Singh, Philosophy of Sikhism, rpt. (Amritsar, 1993), pp. 114-15.

2 In the time of Sultan Sikandar Lodi, a Brahmin is reported to have been so well-versed in Islamic learning that he taught Islamic precepts of the Muslims. K.A. Nizami, Some Aspects of Religion and Politics in India during the Thirteenth Century, (Delhi, 1978), p. 237.

3 Aziz Ahmad, Studies in Islamic Culture in Indian Environment, (Oxford, 1964), pp. 105-107.

4 Tara Chand, Influence of Islam on Indian Culture, (Allahabad, 1963), p. 217.

5 Shihabuddin Iraqi, Bhakti Movement in Medieval India, (Aligarh, 2009), pp. 245-46. One important convert was Jaipal or Ajaipal, Prithviraj’s preceptor, converted to Islam by Khwaja Muinuddin Chishti. M.T. Titus, Indian Islam, (Delhi, 1979), p.44; T.W. Arnold, The Preaching of Islam, ( London, 1896),p. 281; A typical Hindu-Muslim cult of pirs also developed in northern and central India. Gugga Pir, supposed to have been converted to Islam by Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti, was popular mostly in eastern Punjab as a protector against snake-bite.

6 Amir Hasan Sijzi, Fuwaid-ul-Fawad, ( Luclnow, 1894), pp.59-60, 404-05, 417-18.

7 Shihabuddin Iraqi, op. cit., pp. 249-50.

8 Ibid., pp. 252-53

9 I.J. Singh, ‘Tolerance in Religion: How Sikhs view the other Religions’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, December, 2003,p.46

10 S.A.A. Rizvi, “Indian Sufism and Guru Nanak” in Perspectives on Guru Nanak, (ed.) Harbans Singh, pp. 200-01.

11 Ghulam Sarwar, Khazinat-al Asfiya, vol. I, p. 445, as cited by Hafiz Md. Tahir Ali, Influence of Islam and Sufism on Prannath’s Religious Movement, p. 126, fn.4.

12 Tara Chand, op. cit., p. 176.

13 Surinder Singh Kohli, A Critical Study of Adi Granth, p.2; In Guru Granth Sahib, there are four pads ( in Rag Asa and Rag Suhi) and 130 shloks bearing the name of Shiakh Farid. See Macauliffe, The Sikh Religion, rpt., vol. IV, ( Delhi, 1993), pp. 391-414.

14 K.A. Nizami, Life and Times of Shaikh Farid-u’d Din Ganj-i-Shakar, p. 122.

15 Khaja Khan, The Philosophy of Islam, (Madras, 1903) p. V.

16 Sher Singh, op. cit., pp. 115-.116

17 Ibid., p. 116.

18 Macauliffe, op. cit., Vol. I, pp 102, 121, 123.

19 Sher Singh, op. cit., p. 118.

20 Trilochan Singh, ‘Guru Nanak’s Approach to Contemporary Philosophies’, The Sikh Review, Calcutta, pp. 9-10

21 J.S. Kohli, ‘Guru Nanak’s Footprints in Islamic World’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, May, 2006, p.30.

22 Ibid., p. 10.

 

[Stewie]

 

[Stewie]

 

[Stewie]

Time and time again, you keep proving that India is stuck in an endless loop, perpetually reliving 1947.

he thinks what happened in 1947 actually inspired Sikhism? Hahaha

He keeps saying the scholars are cited don’t make them experts of how Sikhism started but somehow we should take Ranjit Singh as the expert and leading light n Sikh theology

 

[cricketjoshila]

Hinduism and Islam are miles apart and why would I claim something that's not true. I leave that up to HIndustva brigade who want to claim ownership of Sikhism and want to deny Sikhism its own distinct and unique identity which is inspired by both Islam and Hinduism and has been prove to be so by academics and religious experts both Sikh and otherwise.

All your other questions are insipid, churlish and moronic because you keep using the argument of political differences, balwa, this that between Sikhs and Muslims as recent as the last 200-300 or so years and these events do not predate the inception of Sikhism. None of these arguments disprove the connection.

Maybe you can tell me why Sikhs believe in One God and not multiple dieties as Hinduism if they are so influenced by Hinduism or are somehow connected to Dharmic faiths? Where did they get that motivation of One God? Do you think that institute in Chandigarh is an undercover KHalistani organization operating right under Indian governments nose?

Name one Sikh Guru and his connection to Islam.

Academics? When did Academics became expert in religion? Do Sikhs follow the Sikh gurus and their teachings or do they follow academics?

Hinduism and Sikhism are closely related because Sikh gurus were hindu Khatris and frequented temples.

There are sects in Hinduism who believe in one god as well.

Can you tell me why the first letter of Mul mantra is Omkar? Derived from OM?

India allows freedom of expression. That institution or person gave his views.

Muslims esp pakistanis trying to find some kind of common ground with Sikhs and Dalits is laughable.

Sikh gurus and Maharaja Ranji Singh ji spent entire life fighting Muslims.

The most revered dalit figure Babasaheb Ambedkar was not too charitable about Muslims and wanted complete population transfer in 1947.

You can wash your propoganda on Pakistani forums, in front of Sikhs in India you will be laughed at.

 

[cricketjoshila]

3

he thinks what happened in 1947 actually inspired Sikhism? Hahaha

He keeps saying the scholars are cited don’t make them experts of how Sikhism started but somehow we should take Ranjit Singh as the expert and leading light n Sikh theology

So Maharaja Ranjit Singhji isnt an expert on Sikhism but some no name academic is because he supports your views.

 

[Stewie]

Name one Sikh Guru and his connection to Islam.

Academics? When did Academics became expert in religion? Do Sikhs follow the Sikh gurus and their teachings or do they follow academics?

Hinduism and Sikhism are closely related because Sikh gurus were hindu Khatris and frequented temples.

There are sects in Hinduism who believe in one god as well.

Can you tell me why the first letter of Mul mantra is Omkar? Derived from OM?

India allows freedom of expression. That institution or person gave his views.

Muslims esp pakistanis trying to find some kind of common ground with Sikhs and Dalits is laughable.

Sikh gurus and Maharaja Ranji Singh ji spent entire life fighting Muslims.

The most revered dalit figure Babasaheb Ambedkar was not too charitable about Muslims and wanted complete population transfer in 1947.

You can wash your propoganda on Pakistani forums, in front of Sikhs in India you will be laughed at.

Just that line shows me the intellect level I am dealing with.

There are religious academic experts, I hope I am bringing something new to you that you will thank me for later.

Have you read the qualifications of the authors I cited? Do you know academics can take the scientific and logical approach to dissecting historical events and trends and philosophies. If its a SIKH academic opining on Sikhism, how can you claim its false?

are you Sikh? what qualification do you have to dismiss their views? do you hold a doctorate?

 

[Stewie]

So Maharaja Ranjit Singhji isnt an expert on Sikhism but some no name academic is because he supports your views.

dude you are digging yourself a deeper hole. look at the list of Sikh academics from that website I posted. Look at the qualification on the citation list. Is it just one person? are you blind or just have some other forms of deficit that prevent you from fully reading and understanding what is presented to you? I swear this is like the tenth post I am referencing the same material to you and you seem to be stuck with Ranjit Singh and KHalistani conspiracy theories.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Time and time again, you keep proving that India is stuck in an endless loop, perpetually reliving 1947.

Time and again pakistanis keep poking their noses into matters in India that doesn't concern them.

 

[Stewie]

1 Sher Singh, Philosophy of Sikhism, rpt. (Amritsar, 1993), pp. 114-15.

9 I.J. Singh, ‘Tolerance in Religion: How Sikhs view the other Religions’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, December, 2003,p.46

13 Surinder Singh Kohli, A Critical Study of Adi Granth, p.2; In Guru Granth Sahib, there are four pads ( in Rag Asa and Rag Suhi) and 130 shloks bearing the name of Shiakh Farid. See Macauliffe, The Sikh Religion, rpt., vol. IV, ( Delhi, 1993), pp. 391-414.

16 Sher Singh, op. cit., pp. 115-.116

20 Trilochan Singh, ‘Guru Nanak’s Approach to Contemporary Philosophies’, The Sikh Review, Calcutta, pp. 9-10

21 J.S. Kohli, ‘Guru Nanak’s Footprints in Islamic World’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, May, 2006, p.30.

If you need help and clarification on how to read scholarly citations, kindly let us know. I am sure there are many educated people on this forum who would love to lend a hand.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Just that line shows me the intellect level I am dealing with.

There are religious academic experts, I hope I am bringing something new to you that you will thank me for later.

Have you read the qualifications of the authors I cited? Do you know academics can take the scientific and logical approach to dissecting historical events and trends and philosophies. If its a SIKH academic opining on Sikhism, how can you claim its false?

are you Sikh? what qualification do you have to dismiss their views? do you hold a doctorate?

Again. Do Sikhs follow your religious academic experts or do they follow the Sikh Gurus? Which one?

If a Sikh Academic is claiming what Sikh Gurus or the leader of Sikhs like Maharaja Ranjit Singh ji never claimed then it has no value.

I am asking name one Sikh Guru and his relationship with Islam. One please.

Why did the leader of Sikhs converted a Mosque into a stable?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Other than hysterical alarmism, do you have a few examples of property owned (not claimed) by Wakf boards that have been acquired by squatting? Any court decisions against them?

As far as I'm aware, all Wakf properties have been acquired either by donations from Muslims or by endowments from monarchs. Of course it's terribly managed - both through incompetence as well as corruption but that's a different discussion.

Very similar to Hindu temple property. Luckily, a lot of Hindu temple administration and generated/donated wealth has been taken over by the government so that's better managed.

I'd actually prefer to see wakf properties also taken under effective government control but the fairer solution is probably to give Hindu religious bodies control over the property and income of the temples. It's after all religious money.

The Waqf board in Tamil Nadu has recently claimed ownership of an entire village taking the villagers by shock. The locals of Thiruchendurai were taken aback when they came to know that their whole hamlet had been declared the property of the state Waqf board.

Thiruchenthurai is a village located on the Cauvery river's bank in Tiruchirapalli district. It also has a 1,500-year-old Sundareswarar Temple with villagers now wondering how the Waqf would claim ownership of this property as well.

The villagers were in for a shock when a local attempted to sell his agricultural land. The man, Rajagopal, was informed by the local authorities that his 1.2-acre plot of property belonged to the Tamil Nadu Waqf Board and that in order to sell it, he needed to get a No Objection Certificate (NOC) from the board, according to a report by India Today.

The sub-office registrar also reportedly gave him a 20-page document claiming ownership of the land from the Tamil Nadu Waqf Board. Puzzled by this information concerning his own land, Rajagopal looked through his property paperwork but found no such claims

Villagers who could not initially believe the claims soon after formed a queue outside the district administration's headquarters. There was no evidence regarding Muslims residing in the area, and papers proved that resettlement took place in 1927-1928. There was also no information about Muslims holding property in the area, the report further said.

However, the Waqf Board has written a 20-page letter to 12 registration offices in Trichy, claiming property in numerous districts.

An official said that all of the lands in Thiruchendurai village belong to the Waqf Board, and anyone wishing to sell it must obtain a NOC from the board in Chennai.

Loading…

www.hindustantimes.com

No appeal is maintainable against the decision/order of Wakf Tribunal | SCC Times

High Court of Himachal Pradesh : Deciding upon an issue as to whether Regular First Appeal or Civil Revision or petition under

www.scconline.com

 

[cricketjoshila]

1 Sher Singh, Philosophy of Sikhism, rpt. (Amritsar, 1993), pp. 114-15.

9 I.J. Singh, ‘Tolerance in Religion: How Sikhs view the other Religions’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, December, 2003,p.46

13 Surinder Singh Kohli, A Critical Study of Adi Granth, p.2; In Guru Granth Sahib, there are four pads ( in Rag Asa and Rag Suhi) and 130 shloks bearing the name of Shiakh Farid. See Macauliffe, The Sikh Religion, rpt., vol. IV, ( Delhi, 1993), pp. 391-414.

16 Sher Singh, op. cit., pp. 115-.116

20 Trilochan Singh, ‘Guru Nanak’s Approach to Contemporary Philosophies’, The Sikh Review, Calcutta, pp. 9-10

21 J.S. Kohli, ‘Guru Nanak’s Footprints in Islamic World’, The Sikh Review, Kolkata, May, 2006, p.30.

If you need help and clarification on how to read scholarly citations, kindly let us know. I am sure there are many educated people on this forum who would love to lend a hand.

Yes. Because Sikhism was founded in 1990s.

I have asked you a few questions.

Name a Sikh Guru and his connection to Islam.

Why did Sikh Gurus kept fighting Muslims throughout their lives?

Why did Maharaj Ranjit Singhji the leader of Sikhs converted a Mosque into stable?

 

[Stewie]

Yes. Because Sikhism was founded in 1990s.

I have asked you a few questions.

Name a Sikh Guru and his connection to Islam.

Why did Sikh Gurus kept fighting Muslims throughout their lives?

Why did Maharaj Ranjit Singhji the leader of Sikhs converted a Mosque into stable?

What do the bolded parts have to do with Sikhism drawing its inspiration from Islam?
Muslims fight Muslims, .. does that mean they are not inspired by the same ideology? Hindus fight Hindus. some might even be devotees of the same Hindu DIETY. does it mean they don't believe in the same diety or believe in something different? Or that their faith is motivated and inspired by some differing religious thoughts? or not at all? I hope you see the utter folly and fallacy of your argument there. Any subsequent political or religious based conflicts between Muslims and Sikhs DO NOT CHANGE THE FACT that originally Sikhism did draw its inspiration from Islam (partially) and partially from Hinduism.

So.. once again, you are missing the point completely. Some of it might have to do with the language barrier as well, I feel. Who was the founder of Sikhism? Let me answer that for you. His name was Guru Nanak. Do you know he went to Mecca as well as Medina? Why would he do that?
Do you know of his relationship with Muslim Sufi Hazrat Mian Mir Saheb? Did you know that Hazrat Mian Mir Saheb laid the foundation of of the Sikh shrine Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple), at the request of Guru Arjan Dev?
I suggest you educate yourself and read up on these facts.

By the way you keep rejecting the ideas cited in the scholarly article of several Sikh scholars, yet you don't seem to provide me any personal credentials that somehow make you feel obligated or entitled for an answer or somehow might give you the right to dismiss such scholars. Will you mind sharing exactly what qualifications do you possess in such matters?

 

[HalBass9]

Time and again pakistanis keep poking their noses into matters in India that doesn't concern them.

None of us here are cashing cheques from the Pakistani government,

 

[cricketjoshila]

None of us here are cashing cheques from the Pakistani government,

What you get or Don't get from Pakistan government is no concern of mine.

Most of my posts are on cricket or India related threads.

Why so many threads on India on a Pakistani forum?

 

[cricketjoshila]

What do the bolded parts have to do with Sikhism drawing its inspiration from Islam?
Muslims fight Muslims, .. does that mean they are not inspired by the same ideology? Hindus fight Hindus. some might even be devotees of the same Hindu DIETY. does it mean they don't believe in the same diety or believe in something different? Or that their faith is motivated and inspired by some differing religious thoughts? or not at all? I hope you see the utter folly and fallacy of your argument there. Any subsequent political or religious based conflicts between Muslims and Sikhs DO NOT CHANGE THE FACT that originally Sikhism did draw its inspiration from Islam (partially) and partially from Hinduism.

So.. once again, you are missing the point completely. Some of it might have to do with the language barrier as well, I feel. Who was the founder of Sikhism? Let me answer that for you. His name was Guru Nanak. Do you know he went to Mecca as well as Medina? Why would he do that?
Do you know of his relationship with Muslim Sufi Hazrat Mian Mir Saheb? Did you know that Hazrat Mian Mir Saheb laid the foundation of of the Sikh shrine Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple), at the request of Guru Arjan Dev?
I suggest you educate yourself and read up on these facts.

By the way you keep rejecting the ideas cited in the scholarly article of several Sikh scholars, yet you don't seem to provide me any personal credentials that somehow make you feel obligated or entitled for an answer or somehow might give you the right to dismiss such scholars. Will you mind sharing exactly what qualifications do you possess in such matters?

If Sikh Gurus were inspired by Islam, they wouldn't be fighting Muslims all throughout their lives.

Please put forward any original source that says that Sikhism took inspiration from Islam. None of the Gurus mention any connection to Islam.

The JanamSakhis that are the base of the claims that Guru Nanak Dev ji visited Mecca and Medina, also say he visited Various Hindu religious places, Tibet, Baghdad, Jerusalem and even Vatican.

For a long time Tibetan Buddhists visited Golden temple on pilgrimage.

That claim of Hazrat Mian laying the foundation stone is unsubstantiated.

The Gurpratap Suraj Granth also called Suraj Prakash the most revered hagiographic text of the Sikh Gurus states that Guru Arjan ji himself laid the foundation of Harmandir Sahib.

Stop trying to appropriate others religion as being some how inspired by yours.

The basis of Sikhism is the teachings of the Gurus and their lives. Accepted history says all of them were Khatri Hindus. They frequently visited Hindu temples and made offerings. Their relationship with Muslims was such that. Gurus and their families were killed by Muslims.

The supreme political leader of the Sikhs Maharaja Ranjit Singhji followed the same path.

This is history.

Your source is some "scholar" using muslim sources or sources from 90s.

 

[Stewie]

If Sikh Gurus were inspired by Islam, they wouldn't be fighting Muslims all throughout their lives.

Please put forward any original source that says that Sikhism took inspiration from Islam. None of the Gurus mention any connection to Islam.

The JanamSakhis that are the base of the claims that Guru Nanak Dev ji visited Mecca and Medina, also say he visited Various Hindu religious places, Tibet, Baghdad, Jerusalem and even Vatican.

For a long time Tibetan Buddhists visited Golden temple on pilgrimage.

That claim of Hazrat Mian laying the foundation stone is unsubstantiated.

The Gurpratap Suraj Granth also called Suraj Prakash the most revered hagiographic text of the Sikh Gurus states that Guru Arjan ji himself laid the foundation of Harmandir Sahib.

Stop trying to appropriate others religion as being some how inspired by yours.

The basis of Sikhism is the teachings of the Gurus and their lives. Accepted history says all of them were Khatri Hindus. They frequently visited Hindu temples and made offerings. Their relationship with Muslims was such that. Gurus and their families were killed by Muslims.

The supreme political leader of the Sikhs Maharaja Ranjit Singhji followed the same path.

This is history.

Your source is some "scholar" using muslim sources or sources from 90s.

I have provided plenty. You want to bury your head in the sand… go right ahead.

I have provided sources of a song institution with verifiable doctorates from your own country. If that’s not definitive or authentic, not sure what else is.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have provided plenty. You want to bury your head in the sand… go right ahead.

I have provided sources of a song institution with verifiable doctorates from your own country. If that’s not definitive or authentic, not sure what else is.

Again. People follow religious texts for their religion not doctoral thesis.

 

[Stewie]

Again. People follow religious texts for their religion not doctoral thesis.

Are you a Sikh? How much religious text of Sikhism have you followed? Let’s start there since you seem to launch a claim of expertise on this matter

 

[Stewie]

Should I take the word of a Hindu or a Sikh expert of Sikhism on the religion of Sikhism when it comes to this question. Lol.

That’s a tough one, eh?

 

[rpant_gabba]

None of that dissproves the fact Sikhism derived its motivation from Islam at the time of its inception. I keep saying that but apparently comprehension is not your strong suit.

you keep claiming. he doesn't accept your claims.

what were you saying about comprehension?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Other than hysterical alarmism, do you have a few examples of property owned (not claimed) by Wakf boards that have been acquired by squatting? Any court decisions against them?

As far as I'm aware, all Wakf properties have been acquired either by donations from Muslims or by endowments from monarchs. Of course it's terribly managed - both through incompetence as well as corruption but that's a different discussion.

Very similar to Hindu temple property. Luckily, a lot of Hindu temple administration and generated/donated wealth has been taken over by the government so that's better managed.

I'd actually prefer to see wakf properties also taken under effective government control but the fairer solution is probably to give Hindu religious bodies control over the property and income of the temples. It's after all religious money.

Once Waqf board make a claim, the onus is on the owner to prove the Waqf board is wrong.

there is a high court judge who thinks Waqf cannot even be disputed.

 

[Red-Indian]

Once Waqf board make a claim, the onus is on the owner to prove the Waqf board is wrong.

there is a high court judge who thinks Waqf cannot even be disputed.

Ah so just as I thought you don't have an actual example of property being acquired through usurpation. Just a couple of ridiculous claims based on some old nawab/king deeding over some land that the courts rejected as Wakf property. Sounds like a million ridiculous court cases fought in India every day.

Typical WhapsApp hysterics. Interesting coming from a guy who claims to only believe based on evidence.

 

[Stewie]

you keep claiming. he doesn't accept your claims.

what were you saying about comprehension?

But my claims are backed by scholarly research and documented history. His are not. New to debating I am guessing, are you?

 

[Red-Indian]

But my claims are backed by scholarly research and documented history. His are not. New to debating I am guessing, are you?

To be honest, both Hindus and Muslims trying to claim historic inspiration and influence for the Sikh religion is an unedifying spectacle. Sort of like Hindus claiming the Pushpak viman proves they invented flight or Pakistanis claiming Bin Qasim as the first Pakistani.

Modern day Sikhism acknowledges neither connection and believes itself to be a distinct religion so I'm not sure how all this matters.

 

[Stewie]

To be honest, both Hindus and Muslims trying to claim historic inspiration and influence for the Sikh religion is an unedifying spectacle. Sort of like Hindus claiming the Pushpak viman proves they invented flight or Pakistanis claiming Bin Qasim as the first Pakistani.

Modern day Sikhism acknowledges neither connection and believes itself to be a distinct religion so I'm not sure how all this matters.

If it does not matter at all then why are people taking extra effort to Pooh Pooh the scholarly and historical evidence present? I don’t know if there are any Sikhs present here but why is it mostly Hindus who would want to whine about it? I never questioned their modern day standing which obviously would be more leaning towards Hindus since they mostly live in India.

However, you cannot avoid and dodge history. Muslims really don’t gain anything from such a claim. I personally argued for it because I knew about it and heard it from my grandfather.
I doubt the younger Gen of Pakistanis even know or care about this.

 

[Red-Indian]

If it does not matter at all then why are people taking extra effort to Pooh Pooh the scholarly and historical evidence present? I don’t know if there are any Sikhs present here but why is it mostly Hindus who would want to whine about it? I never questioned their modern day standing which obviously would be more leaning towards Hindus since they mostly live in India.

However, you cannot avoid and dodge history. Muslims really don’t gain anything from such a claim. I personally argued for it because I knew about it and heard it from my grandfather.
I doubt the younger Gen of Pakistanis even know or care about this.

The issues is this debate is that neither side can present one original contemporary source to back their claims. Both base their claims on circumstantial evidence.

There's a reason why nobody questions the existence of a historical Mohammad but there's a whole body of literature drawing no conclusions on whether a historical Jesus of Nazareth existed.

 

[CricketCartoons]

What do the bolded parts have to do with Sikhism drawing its inspiration from Islam?

Does sikhism have concept of Kafir?

 

[Stewie]

The issues is this debate is that neither side can present one original contemporary source to back their claims. Both base their claims on circumstantial evidence.

There's a reason why nobody questions the existence of a historical Mohammad but there's a whole body of literature drawing no conclusions on whether a historical Jesus of Nazareth existed.

Sure. Nobody has invented technology to peek into the brains of humans presently or historically, so I doubt anybody peeked into the brains of Guru Nanak or Guru Arjun but the former made trips to Mecca and Medina and the latter was known to have terms with a Muslim Sufi saint and even invited him at the inauguration of the Golden temple, some even claim to lay the foundation.

So all that is circumstantial evidence of that’s what you want to call an article written by qualified sikh religious historian already cited above several times.

So pardon me if I believe them over any other opinion pieces of Hindus on the forum here.

 

[Red-Indian]

Sure. Nobody has invented technology to peek into the brains of humans presently or historically, so I doubt anybody peeked into the brains of Guru Nanak or Guru Arjun but the former made trips to Mecca and Medina and the latter was known to have terms with a Muslim Sufi saint and even invited him at the inauguration of the Golden temple, some even claim to lay the foundation.

So all that is circumstantial evidence of that’s what you want to call an article written by qualified sikh religious historian already cited above several times.

So pardon me if I believe them over any other opinion pieces of Hindus on the forum here.

What you miss is that there's enough circumstantial evidence on the other side. Sikhism borrows concepts like Karma, rebirth and Mukti from Hinduism. It also uses words and concepts from Hinduism, such as the word Ram, which is used in the Guru Granth Sahib to refer to God. They also cremate rather than bury.

From my perspective, the early gurus like any prophet in human history borrowed concepts and ideas from many existing religions and each side chooses to see what it wants as the dominant influence.

 

[Stewie]

What you miss is that there's enough circumstantial evidence on the other side. Sikhism borrows concepts like Karma, rebirth and Mukti from Hinduism. It also uses words and concepts from Hinduism, such as the word Ram, which is used in the Guru Granth Sahib to refer to God. They also cremate rather than bury.

From my perspective, the early gurus like any prophet in human history borrowed concepts and ideas from many existing religions and each side chooses to see what it wants.

Obviously you are completely divorced from this debate and have not read any of my previous posts. I suggest you do that.

My very first claim was Sikhism drew its inspiration from both Islam and Hinduism and probably more so from Hinduism. I am not sure exactly what you think is being debated here. I am not claiming Sikhs are Muslims or the gurus were Muslims.
Guru Nanak had studied both Islam and Hinduism, he was appreciative of both as well as critical of both faiths.

Now please don’t ask me to provide evidence that he was critical of Hinduism. I have provided enough evidence of my previous claim which all went unnoticed and ignored by Hindus here.

Then we wonder what the hell happened and spend pages discussing anti Muslim bias of Hindus on PP.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Sure. Nobody has invented technology to peek into the brains of humans presently or historically, so I doubt anybody peeked into the brains of Guru Nanak or Guru Arjun but the former made trips to Mecca and Medina and the latter was known to have terms with a Muslim Sufi saint and even invited him at the inauguration of the Golden temple, some even claim to lay the foundation.

So all that is circumstantial evidence of that’s what you want to call an article written by qualified sikh religious historian already cited above several times.

So pardon me if I believe them over any other opinion pieces of Hindus on the forum here.

Sikhism belief karma and rebirth was clearly inspired by Islam.

Guru Nanak ji visited Mecca and Medina. But he also visited Jagannath Puri and Haridwar.

Sikh literature refers to God with many names, including Hari and Gobind. But never used the word Allah.

 

[rpant_gabba]

What you miss is that there's enough circumstantial evidence on the other side. Sikhism borrows concepts like Karma, rebirth and Mukti from Hinduism. It also uses words and concepts from Hinduism, such as the word Ram, which is used in the Guru Granth Sahib to refer to God. They also cremate rather than bury.

From my perspective, the early gurus like any prophet in human history borrowed concepts and ideas from many existing religions and each side chooses to see what it wants as the dominant influence.

Yup. The borrowing dates back to the book of genesis from

Enūma Eliš - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and here on PP, you have a monotheist complaining about me quoting a valid point from from Dawkins.

 

[Red-Indian]

Obviously you are completely divorced from this debate and have not read any of my previous posts. I suggest you do that.

My very first claim was Sikhism drew its inspiration from both Islam and Hinduism and probably more so from Hinduism. I am not sure exactly what you think is being debated here. I am not claiming Sikhs are Muslims or the gurus were Muslims.
Guru Nanak had studied both Islam and Hinduism, he was appreciative of both as well as critical of both faiths.

Now please don’t ask me to provide evidence that he was critical of Hinduism. I have provided enough evidence of my previous claim which all went unnoticed and ignored by Hindus here.

Then we wonder what the hell happened and spend pages discussing anti Muslim bias of Hindus on PP.

In that case, argue on. Most likely, like in all forum debates, everyone is talking at cross-purposes.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Please stay on topic. Noo personal attacks and no religion comparisons here.

 

[FearlessRoar]

UP man gives triple talaq to wife for 'praising' PM Modi, Yogi Adityanath​

A Muslim woman from Uttar Pradesh's Bahraich has alleged that her husband gave her a 'triple talaq' after she praised Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath for the development of Ayodhya. The police have filed an FIR against the man and his family members.

She also alleged that she was beaten up by her mother-in-law, husband, and others. She claimed that her husband's family also tried to strangle her.

“I am a resident of Mohalla Sarai, Thana Jarwal Road in Bahraich. On December 13, 2023, I was married to Arshad, son of Islam, a resident of Mohalla Delhi Darwaza in Kotwali Nagar, Ayodhya. My father got me married with the consent of both parties and by spending more than his means,” the woman was quoted as saying by news agency PTI in its report.

“After the marriage, when I went out in the city, I liked the roads of Ayodhya Dham, the beautification, the development, and the atmosphere there. On this, I praised Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath and Prime Minister Narendra Modi in front of my husband,” she said.

Following this, the husband sent her back to her parents' house. He also allegedly tossed a pan of hot dal (lentils) at her.

After some time, the relatives stepped in. Then, the woman returned to Ayodhya to live with her husband, Jarwal Road Police Station Incharge Inspector (SHO) Brijraj Prasad said.

However, as per the SHO, the husband abused the Chief Minister, the Prime Minister, and gave her divorce by pronouncing 'talaq, talaq, talaq.'

She alleged that her husband also beat her on the day he gave her divorce.

The police, on the basis of the complaint, filed a case against the eight people, including the woman’s husband Arshad, mother-in-law Raisha, father-in-law Islam, sister-in-law Kulsum, brother-in-law Faran and Shafaq, and sister-in-law Simran.

The case was filed under the assault, abuse, threat, and Dowry Prohibition Act and the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Marriage) Act, the police stated.

UP man gives triple talaq to wife for 'praising' PM Modi, Yogi Adityanath

The woman alleged that she was brutally beaten up by her mother-in-law, husband, and others. She claimed that the family of her husband also tried to strangle her.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Anti-Muslim bias, the new common denominator between India and Israel​

Indians are divided over the Israel-Palestine conflict. While some express support for Israel, significant opposition exists against its actions. The group “Indians for Palestine”. comprising intellectuals and activists, is advocating for the Indian government to oppose Israel’s human rights violations.

Support for Israel is particularly strong among members of the ruling BJP and Hindu nationalist groups, who often label Palestinians as “terrorists”. Despite this, many Indians sympathise with the Palestinian struggle for independence but find it challenging to voice their support in the current political climate. The hashtags #ISupportIsrael, #IndiaWithIsrael, #IndiaStandsWithIsrael and #IsrealUnderFire have been trending in India since the recent war on Gaza began but any trend highlighting the atrocities Israel is committing becomes a hard pill to swallow for its initiators and supporters.

Recently Bollywood celebrities faced backlash for supporting Palestine, including Madhuri Dixit, Nushrratt Bharuccha and Ritika Sajdeh (wife of cricketer Rohit Sharma).

The question is why has the world’s biggest democracy and the non-Muslim country with the largest Muslim population aligned itself with the apartheid regime of Israel instead of Palestine? The answer seems straightforward, it is the ruling far-right BJP alliance that has turned a secular India into polarised polity with an ever increasing anti-Muslim bias owing to its inflammatory rhetoric.

The alliance between India and Israel has increasingly been marked by mutual anti-Muslim sentiments, as both countries view Muslim communities and groups as a threat. Under the leadership of Prime Ministers Narendra Modi and Benjamin Netanyahu, this relationship has strengthened military collaboration and ideological alignment, often framed within the context of rising Hindu and Jewish nationalism.

Even worse has been the fact that instead of condemning Israel’s recent crimes against humanity, the BJP-led government has started to emulate them in India especially in the disputed territory of Indian held Jammu and Kashmir.

Indian diplomat Sandeep Chakravorty has sparked controversy by proposing that India implement an “Israeli model” in Kashmir, which includes encouraging Hindu settlements akin to those in occupied Palestinian areas. Addressing Kashmiri Hindus in New York, he argued this strategy could enhance security and facilitate the return of refugees. His comments have faced significant backlash, with Pakistani officials and Kashmiri scholars denouncing them as reflective of a settler-colonial agenda that threatens the region’s demographic balance.

Another reason why both states get along well with each other is their sham democratic practices. Before the Modi government came to office, India was a decent democracy but now things have changed drastically as the BJP has introduced the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) 2019 – which allows non-Muslim religious minorities from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan to seek citizenship – a measure that threatens Muslims into submission and keep them under check. In contrast, Israel is doing the same – or in fact even worse – to Palestinians whose lives, property, economy and liberty are all under constant threat of erasure.

Ideological resonance between Zionism and Hindutva is another reason behind India’s waning support for the Palestine cause and mild response against the atrocities of apartheid regime in the Middle East. Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and later Hindu nationalist thinkers, such as M.S. Golwalkar, were fascinated by the success of Zionism in creating a Jewish state in Israel. They viewed it as a prototype for their aspiration of establishing a Hindu Rashtra in India. This admiration stemmed from shared ethno-nationalist ideologies that prioritise race and territory.

An expansionist agenda also glues the two together. The concepts of ‘Akhand Bharat’ (Undivided India) and the expanded borders of Israel are driven by nationalist and exclusionary ideologies. The Akhand Bharat vision seeks to incorporate neighbouring countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and Myanmar into a greater Hindu India. Similarly, the Greater Israel movement advocates for the annexation of the West Bank and other occupied Palestinian territories, Jordan, parts of Iraq and Egypt.

These expansionist agendas are often fuelled by religious and ethnic nationalism, portraying minorities as threats to the dominant group’s identity and interests. By demonising and scapegoating minorities, the far-right governments can consolidate their power and distract from their failures in governance.

However, such expansionist policies are not only unethical but also impractical and detrimental to regional stability and peace. They perpetuate conflicts displace populations and divert resources from pressing domestic issues like poverty, inequality and development.

Thus it would not be wrong to suggest that the current strengthening of bonds between India and Israel is more grounded in their ethno-nationalist worldviews and hostility to Muslims rather than mutual strategic interests. But any bond that is based on hatred against any community doesn’t persist forever and crumbles under the weight of its own policies. Thus it would be wise for India and Israel to revise their adversarial approach against their foes and minorities for a lasting peace in Middle East and South Asia. As continued hostilities would further exacerbate existential threats for them rather than resolving existing ones.

Anti-Muslim bias, the new common denominator between India and Israel

Indians are divided over the Israel-Palestine conflict. While some express support for Israel, significant opposition exists against its actions. The group “Indians for Palestine”. comprising intellectuals and activists, is advocating...

www.middleeastmonitor.com