Why anti Muslim bias is so profound among Hindutva supporters?

[ipog]

Are you saying a person can be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time?

As an example for this case: In a family, one person can turn into a atheist. He doesn't recognize himself as a Hindu and not practise any hindu rituals. But he won't go on and whiplash his family for practising Hinduism.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

First of all, is that a fact or opinion? Do you understand different persons will have different views, opinions on this matter? This is where hindusim fundamentally differs from islam viewpoint.

Hindus are not programmed in a factory sort of setup. We are not a herd. Even in this thread, some Hindus may have different views. Even in a hindu family, there are atheists . We have a higher limit for accommodating diverse views. We don't say you should agree with me or else you are not a Hindu.

It is an opinion.

 

[ipog]

It is an opinion.

Be glad most differences stop at name calling. Tbh, the other batch also calls these ppl andhbhakts, RSS, right wingers etc., Each group tries to push their narrative. That's natural and It is fine as long as done within the law ambit.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Are you saying a person can be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time?

Yes, you can be a hindu culturally but not theistically. I know at least one muslim guy in real life who doesn't believe in the supernatural things mentioned in his holy book and doesnt believe in a personal god watching over humans, but loves the muslim tradition of festivals, imagery, poetry and community.

 

[Itachi]

97% of worlds Hindus live in India and Nepal.

What variations in society and stratas are they facing?

The strata that outsiders fail to grasp which was addressed by German sociologist max weber.

 

[ipog]

Yes you do. You guys blamed a " riot" by Romanian gypsies on the Muslims when you knew it was lie. You talked about triple talaq and halal being forced on people without any evidence because you read on some right wing websites. You may not care for Hinduism because apparently it gets in the way of progress and that is fine but you are not like us, we generally care

First point on Romanian - not me. See post#479 regarding diverse viewpoints. Tbh, no one raised that topic in this thread until you did.

Second point - I didn't say muslims are doing it. You passed a blanket comment that most Hindus ditch their religion in the west. By the same coin you should also implement every islamic tradition in a western country otherwise you would be "ditching" some part of islam. Ain't it? Therefore, It was a rhetorical question asking you if halal, triple talaq and other bits etc are something you want to be implemented in the west. Else, you are ditching some part of Islam for progress

 

[FearlessRoar]

Warning:

Please refrain from making personal remarks to each other. Only engage in constructive debate. Any further personal posts will be deleted

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The strata that outsiders fail to grasp which was addressed by German sociologist max weber.

What did Weber say?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

First point on Romanian - not me. See post#479 regarding diverse viewpoints. Tbh, no one raised that topic in this thread until you did.

Second point - I didn't say muslims are doing it. You passed a blanket comment that most Hindus ditch their religion in the west. By the same coin you should also implement every islamic tradition in a western country otherwise you would be "ditching" some part of islam. Ain't it? Therefore, It was a rhetorical question asking you if halal, triple talaq and other bits etc are something you want to be implemented in the west. Else, you are ditching some part of Islam for progress

I have yet to see any Hindu openly discuss things like Karma and Caste system.

Usually when these topics are discussed they just hehehe and talk about something else.

This is just my observation and hence why I made the point I did earlier.

Even there is a chance to discuss it they will try and frame it in a different point of view to make it more palatable. Such as the cow thing for example. Only when a brave man who wears his heart on his sleeve had the guts to explain just how holy cow is was I able to understand it. Otherwise the mainstream Hindu arguments were linking it to pork and alcohol.

Under last 10 years of Modi rule I have started to see this change. Mainly from a nationalist perspective but slightly from religious perspective too.

We are saying it more and more. I think it's a good thing. Some of my fellow Muslims call it hindutva because they think it's extremism...but for me I think it's a reclaim of heritage and pride in Hinduism itself.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Those people are exceptions rather than the norm. I can categorically assure you that these people are in no way representative of real Hindu Beliefs whatsoever . It Is exactly like the whiskey drinking and pork eating muslims. Doesnt mean that those are no longer prohibited in your religion.

But Muslims who drink whisky and eat pork do it because they are not religious, they don't try and claim it as halal behaviour.

With Hinduism, we see many hindus on these forums claiming it is ok to be a hindu atheist, and that surely means the cow is not a sacred animal, so cow slaughter and beef consumption is not a problem for hindus. They claim hinduism is a culture not a religion.

 

[Stewie]

I know Muslims who drink alcohol, eats pork.

I don’t think it’s as straight forward as this and you guys know it too. Hinduism is not well defined and rigid in its rules like Islam. This is something Hindus actually take pride in and have expressed this trait several times here. Some Indians may truly believe in protecting cows but there are others who actually eat cows and don’t believe it should be protected as such.

But more importantly, why do Hindus feel this protected status should be shoved on others? Muslims don’t eat pork but they don’t force Hindus don’t observe it. So why do muslims have to abide by Hindu religious norms?

 

[cricketjoshila]

They don't need to do anything.

They can go and jump into the sea if it makes them happy. What can I do?

We are just having a conversation and exchanging views. You don't need to act upon it or consider it binding.

Instead you seem to want one way propaganda about Hindus being enlighten and evolved and no right of reply.

Pakistan is Islamic republic with no democracy, yet pakistanis will lecture Indians on secularism and democracy.

So, Paranjoy's opinion doesn't matter and your opinion does. Is that what you are saying?

Paranjoy Guha Thakurta writes for Newsclick. Newsclick is one of the several media outlets that are under investigation for taking Chinese money to spread propoganda.

They were outed by the NYT.

Paranjoy Guha Thakurta also alleged that there was scam in Rafale purchase. Opposition parties went to supreme court on basis of that only for the court to find no corruption.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have yet to see any Hindu openly discuss things like Karma and Caste system.

Usually when these topics are discussed they just hehehe and talk about something else.

This is just my observation and hence why I made the point I did earlier.

Even there is a chance to discuss it they will try and frame it in a different point of view to make it more palatable. Such as the cow thing for example. Only when a brave man who wears his heart on his sleeve had the guts to explain just how holy cow is was I able to understand it. Otherwise the mainstream Hindu arguments were linking it to pork and alcohol.

Under last 10 years of Modi rule I have started to see this change. Mainly from a nationalist perspective but slightly from religious perspective too.

We are saying it more and more. I think it's a good thing. Some of my fellow Muslims call it hindutva because they think it's extremism...but for me I think it's a reclaim of heritage and pride in Hinduism itself.

Why will Hindus discuss their beliefs in open? They don't need to convince anyone to convert to their beliefs.

Unless and until there is a deliberate attempt to outrage his beliefs Hindus will keep their religion private.

 

[Bewal Express]

First point on Romanian - not me. See post#479 regarding diverse viewpoints. Tbh, no one raised that topic in this thread until you did.

Second point - I didn't say muslims are doing it. You passed a blanket comment that most Hindus ditch their religion in the west. By the same coin you should also implement every islamic tradition in a western country otherwise you would be "ditching" some part of islam. Ain't it? Therefore, It was a rhetorical question asking you if halal, triple talaq and other bits etc are something you want to be implemented in the west. Else, you are ditching some part of Islam for progress

These topics aren't stand alone. You guys ran to the gypsy thread and attacked Muslims. When that happens, u don't hold back. You look to attack us at every opportunity even when it's none of your business. On these threads you fellow contributors told us how much they cared for white supremacists and how you are worried for their survival
As far as Islamic principles are concerned, once again another idiot tells what they are. I am pray, I fast, I have been to Hajj, and I give charity. Which principle have I compromised.i openly show that I am Muslim and I am happy to say it to anyone on any forum.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I have yet to see any Hindu openly discuss things like Karma and Caste system.

Usually when these topics are discussed they just hehehe and talk about something else.

This is just my observation and hence why I made the point I did earlier.

I am open to any question on these topics.

 

[ipog]

Under last 10 years of Modi rule I have started to see this change. Mainly from a nationalist perspective but slightly from religious perspective too.

We are saying it more and more. I think it's a good thing. Some of my fellow Muslims call it hindutva because they think it's extremism...but for me I think it's a reclaim of heritage and pride in Hinduism itself.

We can agree on the last para

 

[Itachi]

I don’t think it’s as straight forward as this and you guys know it too. Hinduism is not well defined and rigid in its rules like Islam. This is something Hindus actually take pride in and have expressed this trait several times here. Some Indians may truly believe in protecting cows but there are others who actually eat cows and don’t believe it should be protected as such.

But more importantly, why do Hindus feel this protected status should be shoved on others? Muslims don’t eat pork but they don’t force Hindus don’t observe it. So why do muslims have to abide by Hindu religious norms?

For the first concern, me as Hindu not believing it and what Hinduism doesn't believe are very different aspect. Just because some guys do eat beef doesn't mean Hinduism allows it. It's just a blanket statement those people that you know used in order to convince their sanity that they still follow Hinduism. It again goes back to identity crisis. Just because Hinduism is flexible doesn't mean it doesn't have restricted rules.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with religion. It's a side effect of democracy. You'll always see majority dominating in different aspects of a state unless minority appeasing goes on. In democracy, you'll have to follow what majority people wants. Islamic nations shove many rules which you don't realise because you'll take them as taken for granted.

 

[Itachi]

What did Weber say?

Starting from 18th century, the study of society always followed a euro centric model. It was based upon somewhat along the principle of Darwinism's theory of evolution. While European societies took the position at the apex (the perfect version after years and years of evolution of societies) but the eastern societies are homogeneous and still will have to pass through the phases that European societies passed through once.

Weber opined that, the variations which were being taken in to consideration while measuring the evolution of a society, since they were taken from the frame of reference that of European society, thus eastern societies will always be behind. One needs to understand meaning that is attached by the local people in order to understand the variations and heterogeneous nature of the society.

In short, you are following the theory of evolutionary sociology, which has been out of interest due to its failure of addressing non European society.

Currently it's interpretive method which is used in order to understand various parameters of the society including variations.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Starting from 18th century, the study of society always followed a euro centric model. It was based upon somewhat along the principle of Darwinism's theory of evolution. While European societies took the position at the apex (the perfect version after years and years of evolution of societies) but the eastern societies are homogeneous and still will have to pass through the phases that European societies passed through once.

Weber opined that, the variations which were being taken in to consideration while measuring the evolution of a society, since they were taken from the frame of reference that of European society, thus eastern societies will always be behind. One needs to understand meaning that is attached by the local people in order to understand the variations and heterogeneous nature of the society.

In short, you are following the theory of evolutionary sociology, which has been out of interest due to its failure of addressing non European society.

Currently it's interpretive method which is used in order to understand various parameters of the society including variations.

Thanks for info will read it in detail

 

[ipog]

These topics aren't stand alone. You guys ran to the gypsy thread and attacked Muslims. When that happens, u don't hold back. You look to attack us at every opportunity even when it's none of your business. On these threads you fellow contributors told us how much they cared for white supremacists and how you are worried for their survival
As far as Islamic principles are concerned, once again another idiot tells what they are. I am pray, I fast, I have been to Hajj, and I give charity. Which principle have I compromised.i openly show that I am Muslim and I am happy to say it to anyone on any forum.

Read my question, I asked if you wanted such practices spelt out in your books should be implemented in west. I didn't talk your personal practice of Islam. I'm not an authority on your religion to judge your Islam adherence and I don't even act like one contrary to the Muslims here. I'm here to correct some of your misconceptions of Hinduism in the language you understand. It takes an idiot to find out an idiot, I leave it to you if you called me anything.

 

[Bewal Express]

Read my question, I asked if you wanted such practices spelt out in your books should be implemented in west. I didn't talk your personal practice of Islam. I'm not an authority on your religion to judge your Islam adherence and I don't even act like one contrary to the Muslims here. I'm here to correct some of your misconceptions of Hinduism in the language you understand. It takes an idiot to find out an idiot, I leave it to you if you called me anything.

I going no idea what you are on about. You asked if I have compromised to live in the West and I haven't. When you guys believe yourself to be honoury whites to attack us, then why are you surprised when we point that you guys are happy to ditch your religion( generally) without a 2nd thought

 

[Stewie]

For the first concern, me as Hindu not believing it and what Hinduism doesn't believe are very different aspect. Just because some guys do eat beef doesn't mean Hinduism allows it. It's just a blanket statement those people that you know used in order to convince their sanity that they still follow Hinduism. It again goes back to identity crisis. Just because Hinduism is flexible doesn't mean it doesn't have restricted rules.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with religion. It's a side effect of democracy. You'll always see majority dominating in different aspects of a state unless minority appeasing goes on. In democracy, you'll have to follow what majority people wants. Islamic nations shove many rules which you don't realise because you'll take them as taken for granted.

What rules or laws are Islamic countries shoving down other people?

Apart from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc, you can consume alcohol if you want, you can eat what you want. There is no restriction on such stuff. If you are not Muslim you can practice your faith. You can eat pork in Pakistan is you can find it and I’m sure nobody will stop you from it.

There is no imposition of stuff like that.

 

[Itachi]

What rules or laws are Islamic countries shoving down other people?

Apart from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc, you can consume alcohol if you want, you can eat what you want. There is no restriction on such stuff. If you are not Muslim you can practice your faith. You can eat pork in Pakistan is you can find it and I’m sure nobody will stop you from it.

There is no imposition of stuff like that.

Except beef, what else restriction you see in India?

 

[Bewal Express]

What rules or laws are Islamic countries shoving down other people?

Apart from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc, you can consume alcohol if you want, you can eat what you want. There is no restriction on such stuff. If you are not Muslim you can practice your faith. You can eat pork in Pakistan is you can find it and I’m sure nobody will stop you from it.

There is no imposition of stuff like that.

They want to act as victims of some Muslim takeover. I have never s Muslim that gives a toss about them

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Why will Hindus discuss their beliefs in open? They don't need to convince anyone to convert to their beliefs.

Unless and until there is a deliberate attempt to outrage his beliefs Hindus will keep their religion private.

Pakistan is Islamic republic with no democracy, yet pakistanis will lecture Indians on secularism and democracy.



Paranjoy Guha Thakurta writes for Newsclick. Newsclick is one of the several media outlets that are under investigation for taking Chinese money to spread propoganda.

They were outed by the NYT.

Paranjoy Guha Thakurta also alleged that there was scam in Rafale purchase. Opposition parties went to supreme court on basis of that only for the court to find no corruption.

Where have I lectured about secularism. It is something you guys debate all day long amongst your political parties and it makes the news.

Discussion of beliefs is normal for conversations.

 

[uppercut]

But Muslims who drink whisky and eat pork do it because they are not religious, they don't try and claim it as halal behaviour.

Exactly same for most Hindus.

With Hinduism, we see many hindus on these forums claiming it is ok to be a hindu atheist, and that surely means the cow is not a sacred animal, so cow slaughter and beef consumption is not a problem for hindus. They claim hinduism is a culture not a religion.

such people are a tiny minority. Anyone can say whatever they want on a anonymous forum doesn't make it fact. Yes Hinduism dooes have much higher threshold and will accomodate all sorts unlike Abrahamic religions but to take the views of such people as representative of mainstream hinduism is just plain wrong.

Even in the west you will never see a Indian restaurant serving Beef even if it is owned by Pakistanis. That is a pretty good measure of what the vast majority of Hindus practice as part of their religious beliefs.

 

[uppercut]

I going no idea what you are on about. You asked if I have compromised to live in the West and I haven't. When you guys believe yourself to be honoury whites to attack us, then why are you surprised when we point that you guys are happy to ditch your religion( generally) without a 2nd thought

What is the yardstick you used to decide if Hindus have ditched their religion in the West?

 

[Bewal Express]

What is the yardstick you used to decide if Hindus have ditched their religion in the West?

My observation of the Hindus i know. When I do a peer reviewed study, I will send you the findings

 

[uppercut]

My observation of the Hindus i know. When I do a peer reviewed study, I will send you the findings

What were your observations?

 

[Bewal Express]

What were your observations?

Some of the nicest people you could meet but That religion matters not. Almost embarrassed about their religious heritage.

 

[Bewal Express]

What were your observations?

On the other hand the Ind Christians were proud of their beliefs. Would make a real song and dance( quire literally) about the culture and beliefs. Also very nice people and amazing kids

 

[uppercut]

Some of the nicest people you could meet but That religion matters not. Almost embarrassed about their religious heritage.

Hindus rarely wear their religion on their sleeves like Muslims do ... but if crowds at Temples are any indication you will find massive numbers in western countries . And no beef at Indian restaurants is another proxy measure.

 

[Bewal Express]

Hindus rarely wear their religion on their sleeves like Muslims do ... but if crowds at Temples are any indication you will find massive numbers in western countries . And no beef at Indian restaurants is another proxy measure.

Fair enough. As I said my observations aren't your cup of tea.

 

[Red-Indian]

I don’t think it’s as straight forward as this and you guys know it too. Hinduism is not well defined and rigid in its rules like Islam. This is something Hindus actually take pride in and have expressed this trait several times here. Some Indians may truly believe in protecting cows but there are others who actually eat cows and don’t believe it should be protected as such.

But more importantly, why do Hindus feel this protected status should be shoved on others? Muslims don’t eat pork but they don’t force Hindus don’t observe it. So why do muslims have to abide by Hindu religious norms?

And we're back to the start. Let's revise the arguments.

However virtually every Muslim majority country makes insulting the Prophet punishable by death.

I agree with the principle of not imposing your views on others but are you going to be the one who tells

- A fervent Muslim that you revere the Prophet but don't react at all if someone else makes fun of him in front of you even if you're in the majority in your country?

- A deeply religious Hindu that you avoid beef but don't react at all if someone slaughters your sacred animal in front of you even in a Hindu majority country?

Religious people have eccentricities and need some exceptions. Let's allow them those as long as they're able to do it democratically.

 

[uppercut]

And we're back to the start. Let's revise the arguments.


However virtually every Muslim majority country makes insulting the Prophet punishable by death.

I agree with the principle of not imposing your views on others but are you going to be the one who tells

- A fervent Muslim that you revere the Prophet but don't react at all if someone else makes fun of him in front of you even if you're in the majority in your country?
- A deeply religious Hindu that you avoid beef but don't react at all if someone slaughters your sacred animal in front of you even in a Hindu majority country?

Religious people have eccentricities and need some exceptions. Let's allow them those as long as they're able to do it democratically.

Based on my personal experiences the reason why the simple concept of mutual respect does not resonate with most Muslims Is because they have been brought up with the notion that there is one and only one true religion( no exceptions) and all others are not and to be not trusted and dealt with contempt. And This is all sanctioned.

Now you would think that well educated Muslims would not subscribe to that thought process but shockingly that is not the case at all !! The evidence is right here on this forum and soo many Pakistani Cricketers saying atrocious things .... with Ahmed Shehzad taking the cake for telling Dilshan to convert or else he is going straight to hell.

 

[sweep_shot]

Based on my personal experiences the reason why the simple concept of mutual respect does not resonate with most Muslims Is because they have been brought up with the notion that there is one and only one true religion( no exceptions) and all others are not and to be not trusted and dealt with contempt. And This is all sanctioned.

Now you would think that well educated Muslims would not subscribe to that thought process but shockingly that is not the case at all !! The evidence is right here on this forum and soo many Pakistani Cricketers saying atrocious things .... with Ahmed Shehzad taking the cake for telling Dilshan to convert or else he is going straight to hell.

It is not illegal or wrong to believe a religion is the only right one as long as the person is not harming others.

Regarding Shehzad saying that to Dilshan, that's between them. Not sure why others have to butt in.

 

[ipog]

Hitler also said German race is the superior to all races..we know from history what followed next

 

[sweep_shot]

Hitler also said German race is the superior to all races..we know from history what followed next

Wrong comparison.

 

[sweep_shot]

Some Indians seem to have an entitlement that Muslims owe them explanations about their faith. Not sure where this entitlement comes from.

 

[RexRex]

very simple : Brute force.

I asked you for scholarly studies and research on this issue and you reply with two words.

Isn't there any evidence or literature on mass forced conversion campaigns in the Mughal era ?

 

[uppercut]

Here is the question again:

why are cows being killed in india by muslims despite being aware that the cow is sacred for Hindus? This suggests that they do not value Hindu religious sensitivities and are plain intolerant bigots

Asking that question again that nobody wants to touch. Once we find the answer to that it will go a long way in addressing the OP posed by @The Bald Eagle

 

[RexRex]

Believing that only one God exists is not intolerance lol.

It is the defining feature of Abrahmic religions.

 

[ipog]

Abrahamovic or not, Why can't other religions also have their own beliefs? There is a difference between

1. My religion is good for me. It serves me the best. I should preserve it from disappearing.

2. My religion is the best. Rest all are trash. My religion is also the best for everyone else too. They don't know this and I'm going to make them realize it I will trash and treat their current beliefs with utter contempt but they can't say anything back.

We know who is following which method. This is not medieval period where you can get away with second method without any repercussion atleast in some parts of the world still.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Warning:

Let's refrain from personal attacks and stick to the topic

 

[sweep_shot]

Believing that only one God exists is not intolerance lol.

It is the defining feature of Abrahmic religions.

Exactly.

If any Muslim believes there are multiple gods (auzubillah), he cannot be a Muslim. A Muslim MUST believe there is only one God.

Same with Jews. Jews believe in one God and one God only. Their first commandment (from 10 commandments) strictly confirms that.

 

[RexRex]

Abrahamovic or not, Why can't other religions also have their own beliefs? There is a difference between

1. My religion is good for me. It serves me the best. I should preserve it from disappearing.

2. My religion is the best. Rest all are trash. My religion is also the best for everyone else too. They don't know this and I'm going to make them realize it I will trash and treat their current beliefs with utter contempt but they can't say anything back.

We know who is following which method. This is not medieval period where you can get away with second method without any repercussion atleast in some parts of the world still.

Indeed, hope you'll agree that hard-right hindus should be tolerant & not prevent other religious folk from enjoying cow meat.

 

[ipog]

Indeed, hope you'll agree that hard-right hindus should be tolerant & not prevent other religious folk from enjoying cow meat.

Yes, they can eat but not in Indian states where it is banned legally. They will prosecuted as per applicable law. Indian Muslims can elect their representatives, get electorate majority, change the law and then eat in those states too technically.

 

[ipog]

Indeed, hope you'll agree that hard-right hindus should be tolerant & not prevent other religious folk from enjoying cow meat.

My previous reply is as per law. Now, on a societal level, tolerance is mutual. There are villages and towns where Hindus and Muslims celebrate festivals of both religions together. It is a give and take.

Hindus have been tolerant for many decades now. It is Muslims turn now. Let more and more Muslims be tolerant and Hindus will also extend the same courtesy in some negotiable areas.

 

[uppercut]

Indeed, hope you'll agree that hard-right hindus should be tolerant & not prevent other religious folk from enjoying cow meat.

So you mean Hindus must set aside their beliefs for others who dont value our beliefs ?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Believing that only one God exists is not intolerance lol.

It is the defining feature of Abrahmic religions.

its just codification of intolerance.

Its the equivalent of Slavery is moral becos it says so in the old testamant, neither does new testament and quran condemn it.

Its by the "book"

So me being intolerant towards slavery is being intolerant towards judaism/Xtianity and islam?

 

[RexRex]

So you mean Hindus must set aside their beliefs for others who dont value our beliefs ?

Your beliefs will be valued by others only to the point that they aren't personally affected by it. Cows aren't hindu property. They belong to everyone in India.

 

[RexRex]

I asked you for scholarly studies and research on this issue and you reply with two words.

Isn't there any evidence or literature on mass forced conversion campaigns in the Mughal era ?

Where is the evidence on mass forced conversion @uppercut ?

 

[RexRex]

its just codification of intolerance.

Its the equivalent of Slavery is moral becos it says so in the old testamant, neither does new testament and quran condemn it.

Its by the "book"

So me being intolerant towards slavery is being intolerant towards judaism/Xtianity and islam?

Enforcing slavery is not a part of christian doctrine, but monotheism is.

 

[ipog]

Pigs are also not Hindu property. Why don't these ppl eat it?

Your likes and dislikes are not absolute in a society setting. There are laws. Everyone is answerable to the law of the land. Even islamic countries have blasphemy laws. Why aren't they removed. Anyone can do anything they want then.

 

[Red-Indian]

Your beliefs will be valued by others only to the point that they aren't personally affected by it. Cows aren't hindu property. They belong to everyone in India.

While that's an ideal scenario i.e. total freedom to do with your words, body and possessions as you wish as long as you're not physically hurting anyone else, there is no society on earth that's able to enforce it.

I could give dozens of examples but I'll stick to an easily understood one

Virtually every country has public decency laws on how much of your body you're allowed to show in public. These are not governed by some universal standard of body coverage but the sensibilities of the majority of the population. By your standards, everyone's body is their own and showing an extra organ or two doesn't personally affect anybody else.

We have to make allowances for social/religious norms.

I think we're forced to make laws and rules that impinge on people's freedoms. Ban public nudity, blasphemy, cow slaughter etc.

 

[RexRex]

Virtually every country has public decency laws on how much of your body you're allowed to show in public. These are not governed by some universal standard of body coverage but the sensibilities of the majority of the population. By your standards, everyone's body is their own and showing an extra organ or two doesn't personally affect anybody else.

In public yes, in private no.

There are nudity beaches and nudity clubs in many places in Europe and the USA where decency laws don't apply.

 

[RexRex]

In public yes, in private no.

There are nudity beaches and nudity clubs in many places in Europe and the USA where decency laws don't apply.

So, to bring the analogy to full circle, I've mentioned in earlied threads that India could create special zones where cow is slaughtered and meat sold, areas that orthodox hindus can stay away from so that they're sensibilities are not affected.

If orthodox hindus can tolerate neighbouring states like Kerala or Bengal where cow slaughter is allowed, I'm sure they won't object to far-out zones within their state that allow for cow slaughter, to cater to non-hindus. It is a distinction without a difference.

 

[Red-Indian]

In public yes, in private no.

There are nudity beaches and nudity clubs in many places in Europe and the USA where decency laws don't apply.

Are you saying there are no laws based on people's feelings and social norms in the western world? Only cold, logical, science based laws? How about abortion laws, gun laws, holocaust denial, LGBT marriage, LGBT adoption? Why allow social norms space but not religion?

 

[Red-Indian]

So, to bring the analogy to full circle, I've mentioned in earlied threads that India could create special zones where cow is slaughtered and meat sold, areas that orthodox hindus can stay away from so that they're sensibilities are not affected.

If orthodox hindus can tolerate neighbouring states like Kerala or Bengal where cow slaughter is allowed, I'm sure they won't object to zones within their state that allow for cow slaughter, to cater to non-hindus. It is a distinction without a difference.

In that case, we should also create special spaces where we're freely allowed to insult religious figures, burn religious books, allow in public etc. I think I might just move to these free for all spaces that you're advocating the creation of.

 

[RexRex]

Are you saying there are no laws based on people's feelings and social norms in the western world? Only cold, logical, science based laws? How about abortion laws, gun laws, holocaust denial, LGBT marriage, LGBT adoption? Why allow social norms space but not religion?

There are laws based on social norms & people's feelings but their usually confined to the public realm. Like you said - obscenity laws.

I don't know about the rest but the lone superpower of our world, the USA, has tried to be .. a libertarian utopia, where anything is allowed in privacy of your property.

 

[RexRex]

In that case, we should also create special spaces where we're freely allowed to insult religious figures, burn religious books, allow public etc. I think I might just move to these free for all spaces that you're advocating the creation of.

You are already allowed to do this in the USA.

 

[ipog]

Gotta love the craving to impinge on other religion beliefs.

India must be doing something really right to be doing so well in recent years. The respect India has globally speaks for itself. On the other hand, Pakistan created exclusively for Muslims is in a pathetic state looking for loans every year. So, I guess India needn't change anything for Muslims or based on outside muslims' opinions.

If Indian Muslims are too worried about something, they can make it happen through normal process - get majority, convince electorate and make the new laws. Until then, learn to live abiding by the current laws.

 

[Hikaru]

Both religions are at odds with each other with contrasting philosophies. Liberals for sure can claim dosti yaari, but devoted Hindus and Muslims can only form superficial bonds, cracks will appear eventually.

 

[Red-Indian]

There are laws based on social norms & people's feelings but their usually confined to the public realm. Like you said - obscenity laws.

I don't know about the rest but the lone superpower of our world, the USA, has tried to be .. a libertarian utopia, where anything is allowed in privacy of your property.

It took decades of universal education, political campaigning, court judgements etc. to get these basic freedoms. Even after that, it's only a few years since Same-Sxx marriage was legally allowed in the States when it didn't affect anyone except the two poor dude/dudettes actually getting married. The US I'm sorry to tell you is no libertarian utopia and is in danger of sliding back if Trump comes to power.

Countries like India (and to some limited extent Pakistan) are combating poor education, deep religious feelings, recent self-governance etc. to try and fight back against centuries of tradition and religious complexes to give people freedoms. We've already outlawed Sati, child marriage, triple talaq, dowries, the caste system, polygamy (to a large extent). Yes things like blasphemy, cow slaughter etc. are still banned but they're small sacrifices that folks like other religionists, atheists etc. have to make to accommodate the religious. I'm not sure it's as egregious as you're making it out to be.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Gotta love the craving to impinge on other religion beliefs.

India must be doing something really right to be doing so well in recent years. The respect India has globally speaks for itself. On the other hand, Pakistan created exclusively for Muslims is in a pathetic state looking for loans every year. So, I guess India needn't change anything for Muslims or based on outside muslims' opinions.

If Indian Muslims are too worried about something, they can make it happen through normal process - get majority, convince electorate and make the new laws. Until then, learn to live abiding by the current laws.

What do you think the something is that India is doing well?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Abrahamovic or not, Why can't other religions also have their own beliefs? There is a difference between

1. My religion is good for me. It serves me the best. I should preserve it from disappearing.

2. My religion is the best. Rest all are trash. My religion is also the best for everyone else too. They don't know this and I'm going to make them realize it I will trash and treat their current beliefs with utter contempt but they can't say anything back.

We know who is following which method. This is not medieval period where you can get away with second method without any repercussion atleast in some parts of the world still.

Do you really believe all Hindus fall into category 1 and all Muslims fall into category 2?

 

[ipog]

Do you really believe all Hindus fall into category 1 and all Muslims fall into category 2?

Not all.

Category 1: majority Hindus fall into this category and a minor extent of muslims possibly

Category 2: majority Muslims and minority Hindus.

As majority will drive the narrative and push the agenda, that's good enough for argument sake.

Even if this small thread is sample, you can find the above trend. To your credit, you acknowledged cow slaughter is a sensitive issue to Hindus. Except you, all others were arguing contemptuously that we don't value what Hindus think. While that maybe so privately or in islamic countries, is it a desirable tendency in a society where Hindus and Muslims must co-exist? If Hindus are majority but still can't their views and opinions respected, what is the use? Tomorrow, they will say we will do something else. Where is the end?

 

[Red-Indian]

Both religions are at odds with each other with contrasting philosophies. Liberals for sure can claim dosti yaari, but devoted Hindus and Muslims can only form superficial bonds, cracks will appear eventually.

You can say that about any competing ideologies that people feel deeply about - capitalists/communists, conservatives/liberals, cultural issues etc. Religion is stronger than most but i'm not even sure it's as bad as political ideologies nowadays. When I see the vitriol between the Imran Khan fan club vs. PMLN supporters or Modi Bhakts vs. haters on this forum, I sometimes feel Hindu-Muslim conflict is a pale shadow. In most western countries, the conflict between Social/poltical philosophies is so shrill today, it's constantly breaking out into violence.

Yes anti-Muslim bias is profound among Hindu supporters
So is anti-North Indian and Hindi bias profound among Dravidian supporters
anti-black bias strong among white nationalists
anti-Jew bias strong among Muslim extremists

Let's not be surprised humans who believe too deeply in their particular choice of tribe (religion, caste, nation, political ideology) are capable of hate.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Not all.

Category 1: majority Hindus fall into this category and a minor extent of muslims possibly

Category 2: majority Muslims and minority Hindus.

As majority will drive the narrative and push the agenda, that's good enough for argument sake.

Even if this small thread is sample, you can find the above trend. To your credit, you acknowledged cow slaughter is a sensitive issue to Hindus. Except you, all others were arguing contemptuously that we don't value what Hindus think. While that maybe so privately or in islamic countries, is it a desirable tendency in a society where Hindus and Muslims must co-exist? If Hindus are majority but still can't their views and opinions respected, what is the use? Tomorrow, they will say we will do something else. Where is the end?

I am disappointed by the arguments of some in this thread but that's the internet for you.

In real life in India - Dar Ul Uloom Deoband has called for Muslims to not eat beef in bans are in place. I think that is a better measure of the respect of the sensitivity of beef than the opinion of posters on this forum.

I think you are being too generous with Hindus here with your split of majority of Hindu falls under category 1.

 

[ipog]

What do you think the something is that India is doing well?

Education, business leadership, internet literacy and digital penetration, support for the poorest, lower corruption, Generally good policy making in the interest of the nation to begin with.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Education, business leadership, internet literacy and digital penetration, support for the poorest, lower corruption, Generally good policy making in the interest of the nation to begin with.

Oh ok that has nothing to do with the thread discussion.

I thought you were establishing a link as to how it handles religion.

 

[ipog]

I am disappointed by the arguments of some in this thread but that's the internet for you.

In real life in India - Dar Ul Uloom Deoband has called for Muslims to not eat beef in bans are in place. I think that is a better measure of the respect of the sensitivity of beef than the opinion of posters on this forum.

I think you are being too generous with Hindus here with your split of majority of Hindu falls under category 1.

Respect to you and such people for respecting our sensitivities.

Let's hope people aren't as extreme as they seem on internet and learn to live in harmony.

 

[Red-Indian]

I am disappointed by the arguments of some in this thread but that's the internet for you.

In real life in India - Dar Ul Uloom Deoband has called for Muslims to not eat beef in bans are in place. I think that is a better measure of the respect of the sensitivity of beef than the opinion of posters on this forum.

I think you are being too generous with Hindus here with your split of majority of Hindu falls under category 1.

I do think there is something to what he says. It's changing because of dedicated efforts by the likes of the VHP, BJP and other associates parties but Hinduism has a tradition of being big tent and tolerant compared to other major religions.
- No religious figures - whether Muslim, Buddhist, Jain, Christian etc. are insulted
- All religions are allowed to carry out proselytization activities
- Multiple religions religious days and public holidays are accepted

It's what made Hinduism likable for non-religious folks but I do understand the viewpoint of the Hindutva types. If they continue to be endlessly accommodative, it's very possible Hinduism in India would end up like Christianity in Scandinavia. Present in theory but not practice. Religions like any other ideology are as much defined by their red lines and hates as much as their beliefs. By internal consensus, they've chosen to fight the red lines to be a ban on cow slaughter and reclaiming a few ancient temples. I accept that and thank my lucky stars they haven't chosen something like the caste system or widow remarriage which would be truly harmful to society.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Asking that question again that nobody wants to touch. Once we find the answer to that it will go a long way in addressing the OP posed by @The Bald Eagle

How could Muslims be bigot to eat an animal that is also permissible in your religion. And if they do eat and sacrifice in not open or conspicuous places then what is wrong with that. And cows are not endangered species too.

 

[Red-Indian]

How could Muslims be bigot to eat an animal that is also permissible in your religion. And if they do eat and sacrifice in not open or conspicuous places then what is wrong with that. And cows are not endangered species too.

I'm not sure who this strange guy is but are you saying he is a major Hindu guru and vedic expert? He doesn't look like it.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

He is a comparative religion scripture expert that most Indians are familiar with.

I'm not sure who this strange guy is but are you saying he is a major Hindu guru and vedic expert? He doesn't look like it.

 

[Red-Indian]

He is a comparative religion scripture expert that most Indians are familiar with.

I tried to listen to him for a couple of minutes and he comes off as an ignorant idiot who's quickly read the wikipedia page a couple of minutes before his recording. I see he's actually banned in India for hate speech.

 

[Hitman]

I'm not sure who this strange guy is but are you saying he is a major Hindu guru and vedic expert? He doesn't look like it.

He is Zakir Naik.

 

[Bewal Express]

I tried to listen to him for a couple of minutes and he comes off as an ignorant idiot who's quickly read the wikipedia page a couple of minutes before his recording. I see he's actually banned in India for hate speech.

But apparently hate speech isn't a problem if this guy does it.

Modi accused of hate speech for calling Muslims 'infiltrators' at a rally days into India's election

The remarks by Prime Minister Narendra Modi were criticized for peddling anti-Muslim tropes, and for breaking election rules that bar candidates from aggravating religious tensions.

www.google.com

 

[Red-Indian]

But apparently hate speech isn't a problem if this guy does it.

Modi accused of hate speech for calling Muslims 'infiltrators' at a rally days into India's election

The remarks by Prime Minister Narendra Modi were criticized for peddling anti-Muslim tropes, and for breaking election rules that bar candidates from aggravating religious tensions.

www.google.com

Of course it's a problem. Modi's notorious for anti-muslim hate speech especially during election season. But he's a politician and politicians around the world get away with this nonsense.