Why do Indians here have such a Holier than Thou attitude regarding Kashmir?

[Artless Dodges]

I don't usually post much and just stick to lurking in order to keep up with cricket but the recent few thread on Kashmir really irk me. I’m not here to rave about why Pakistan is right. On the contrary, I understand why India is holding on to Kashmir and I would do the same if I were the PM of India. The region gives India precious water resources, is geographically optimal for defending against invasion, and an argument can be made that losing Kashmir would threaten the very territorial integrity of India. But please do not for a second pretend like your country is some force of moral good protecting the misguided Kashmiris from themselves and the evil Islamic fundamentalist nation of Pakistan. Understand that the Kashmiri separatist movement is very much homegrown and just because you offer them citizenship and benefits doesn’t make them morally beholden to like or stay in India. I don’t know about anybody else but I wouldn’t want to be a part of British Raj no matter how many seats in parliament they offered us. Self Determination doesn’t require moral justification, IT IS A MORAL JUSTIFICATION. The Kashmiris fighting for independence are no different than Irish nationalist, American revolutionaries, or even the Indians that fought to create India. It doesn't excuse terrorism or atrocities committed but the movement is very much legitimate.

Despite all our failings, it seems that Pakistanis more readily accept that our government isn't some prophetic force of good. Some Indians would be mindful to realize that Pakistan and Kashmiris have certain legitimate grievances and their actions are in response to actions committed by India itself. Same goes for the other way around. Pakistan is not guided by blind hate of India or some wet dream to conquer India. Pakistan, India, and all other nations in the world are government by self-interest and Real-Politik. So please lose the faux morality, it is very patronizing and stinks of hypocrisy.

(Before somebody brings up Balochistan, if the majority there want independence, their demands would be just as legitimate as well. But reality on ground suggests otherwise especially considering that 50% of the population is Pashtun to start with and at least half the Baloch tribes are pro-autonomy or Pro-Pakistan)

 

[Artless Dodges]

Also people need to stop the bull that if Kashmiris don't like it here, they can move to Pakistan. Kashmir just like any other region belongs to the people that have lived there for thousands of years before any nations-state existed and, barring a genocide, will live there even if India ceases to exist. Communities don't exist to serve countries, it's the other way around.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Your argument is flawed.

SL Tamils wanted a separate nation because they were ill treated by Buddhists but did it happen? Going by your logic, if my town/ zilla/ province doesn't like being with India should our families move out or declare independence that this is our land and we have been living here for ages?

Last but not least why did this Kashmir issue become intense in late 80's or early 90's? Who triggered it? Who benefits from this stir?

 

[Zak_Fan]

Why do Pakistanis here have a holier than thou attitude regarding Kashmir when you have been carrying out Baloch genocide for ages?

We are not pretending to be angels. Be it indigenous freedom movement, or Pak funded terror camps in Kashmir, both will be crushed as it happens to be in India's national interest.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Your argument is flawed.

SL Tamils wanted a separate nation because they were ill treated by Buddhists but did it happen? Going by your logic, if my town/ zilla/ province doesn't like being with India should our families move out or declare independence that this is our land and we have been living here for ages?

Last but not least why did this Kashmir issue become intense in late 80's or early 90's? Who triggered it? Who benefits from this stir?

They know the answer, but would not admit it.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Your argument is flawed.

SL Tamils wanted a separate nation because they were ill treated by Buddhists but did it happen? Going by your logic, if my town/ zilla/ province doesn't like being with India should our families move out or declare independence that this is our land and we have been living here for ages?

Last but not least why did this Kashmir issue become intense in late 80's or early 90's? Who triggered it? Who benefits from this stir?

Never said India should grant independence to Kashmir, I certainly wouldn't if I was the Indian PM. But yes that is how independence works. If a region of people are disenfranchised by a country, they fight back. Also please please stop with the town zilla nonesense, it sounds stupid af. Kashmir, like Scotland, Ireland, Catalonia, Balochistan, Kurdistan and dozens of other examples is a large population of people with a distinct identity and history that can form viable nations. I'm not going to waste my time trying to rationalize how many people and what kind of identity lead to the formation of independence movements. There is a reason that in 10,000 years of human history, zillas have never declared independence.

Also my point seems to have completely flown over your head. Of course it was Pakistan that triggered it because it is in our national interest. But that doesn't mean that Kashmiri struggle is any less real. *** the french triggered the American independence. There is a reason Pakistan hasn't been able to support Khalistan since the people there don't want independence.

All I'm saying is that the Kashmiri people aren't misguided idiots that can't think for themselves and Pakistanis aren't evil murderers, they are simply people with different viewpoints and self-interest. You don't have to change your view point, but you would be stupid to paint your enemy with a broad brush.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Why do Pakistanis here have a holier than thou attitude regarding Kashmir when you have been carrying out Baloch genocide for ages?

We are not pretending to be angels. Be it indigenous freedom movement, or Pak funded terror camps in Kashmir, both will be crushed as it happens to be in India's national interest.

At least you are honest. India keeping Kashmir because of self-interest is something I can respect. Now if only your fellow countrymen would stop the moral diarrhea. That is all I ask.

Regarding Balochistan, maybe you should have read the OP before typing none-sense. 50% of balochistan is pashtun and half the baloch tribes are pro-Pakistan. The province has legitimate grievances but if a referendum was held tomorrow, i would bet my house that not even 35% would vote to secede. Of course you are going to conveniently ignore this. Lastly, if the majority in Balochistan want freedom, they have a legitimate right to fight for it.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Never said India should grant independence to Kashmir, I certainly wouldn't if I was the Indian PM. But yes that is how independence works. If a region of people are disenfranchised by a country, they fight back. Also please please stop with the town zilla nonesense, it sounds stupid af. Kashmir, like Scotland, Ireland, Catalonia, Balochistan, Kurdistan and dozens of other examples is a large population of people with a distinct identity and history that can form viable nations. I'm not going to waste my time trying to rationalize how many people and what kind of identity lead to the formation of independence movements. There is a reason that in 10,000 years of human history, zillas have never declared independence.

Also my point seems to have completely flown over your head. Of course it was Pakistan that triggered it because it is in our national interest. But that doesn't mean that Kashmiri struggle is any less real. *** the french triggered the American independence. There is a reason Pakistan hasn't been able to support Khalistan since the people there don't want independence.

All I'm saying is that the Kashmiri people aren't misguided idiots that can't think for themselves and Pakistanis aren't evil murderers, they are simply people with different viewpoints and self-interest. You don't have to change your view point, but you would be stupid to paint your enemy with a broad brush.

How? Are people from Kashmir not allowed to vote OR study OR shift OR send representatives to parliament?

Zilla/ province argument is not non sense , agreed it did not happen so far but the sentiments are same in case people of a certain section want autonomous power. It just doesn't happen that way.

If majority of Kashmiri people are not naive/ misguided there wouldn't have been ethnic cleansing of pandits between 85-95.

Current Kashmiri struggle is real and I do accept that, I neither do support some ghastly activities by our army either; it's a waste of hard earned tax payers money. But the point in contention is neither we nor Pakistanis are holier than thou in this aspect and GOI quite clearly knows what will happen once Kashmir gets separated with neighbors like China and Pak.

 

[Zak_Fan]

At least you are honest. India keeping Kashmir because of self-interest is something I can respect. Now if only your fellow countrymen would stop the moral diarrhea. That is all I ask.

Regarding Balochistan, maybe you should have read the OP before typing none-sense. 50% of balochistan is pashtun and half the baloch tribes are pro-Pakistan. The province has legitimate grievances but if a referendum was held tomorrow, i would bet my house that not even 35% would vote to secede. Of course you are going to conveniently ignore this. Lastly, if the majority in Balochistan want freedom, they have a legitimate right to fight for it.

No one is talking about what percentage of Balochis desire freedom, the point I am raising is human rights violations.

Pakistanis like to cry about the pictures of injured Kashmiri kids or some militant dying. But how many have shed a tear for 1000 Balochis murdered and bodies dumped since 2011 (a period that is supposed to be relatively peaceful)?

How many Pakistanis shed a tear when thousands were murdered to curb separatist movements in 2000s? When the same population cries about injured Kashmiris on daily basis...I find it ridiculous and I am sure that you share the sentiment too.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Very interesting thread.

Well articulated by OP.

Holier than thou attitude is something done by all.

This is not in direct response to OP's question but it kinda is relevant too:

Pakistan (and when I say Pakistan, I am referring to establishment and not people per se) should be the LAST person in the world to talk about doing what's right. They carried out genocide in East Pakistan (present day Bangladesh), its intelligence agency is notorious for making people disappear in Pakistan, still harbour terrorists to wage proxy wars against India (yes, I know there are other terrorists that affect Pakistan too), instigate many uprisings in Kashmir...

AND THEN act like they have moral high ground when it comes to Kashmir (when ironically the mess started when they illegally attacked Kashmir in 1947 which led to India quoting that and attacking Hyderabad the next year - long story).

They don't give a DAMN about Kashmiris.

They just want the land just like Indians do.

Kashmiris are the ones who are caught in the cross fire between two crazy nations.

As for Pakistanis, they keep throwing out phrases like "UN Resolution", "illegal occupation", "so called democracy" while majority of them have little to no understanding of the situation.

As for Indians, reading majority of posts reg Kashmir online makes me shake my head. Barring a few, there is no depth or inclination to understand the situation or even consider various possibilities (true progress can ONLY be made if everything is brought to the table and analyzed). Its not even about the viewpoint, its about how you look at it. People who question anything get branded as traitors. There is an "us vs them" scenario created and many happily take refuge in their chosen camp letting someone else fight their battle.

I am no authority on Kashmir but its very rare to find truly genuine posts reg this topic. But there are plenty super charged up, surface level logic based substance-less battles from both sides with tons of name calling.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Bottom line is that Kashmir due to it's strategic location is stuck between two nations that have no regard for morality, and are doing what is best for their own interest.

 

[Artless Dodges]

No one is talking about what percentage of Balochis desire freedom, the point I am raising is human rights violations.

Pakistanis like to cry about the pictures of injured Kashmiri kids or some militant dying. But how many have shed a tear for 1000 Balochis murdered and bodies dumped since 2011 (a period that is supposed to be relatively peaceful)?

How many Pakistanis shed a tear when thousands were murdered to curb separatist movements in 2000s? When the same population cries about injured Kashmiris on daily basis...I find it ridiculous and I am sure that you share the sentiment too.

You raise a valid point and I one would be remiss to say that there isn't some hypocrisy there. Same can be said of Palestine while staying mum about the independence movement in China.

If I am going to be honest with you though, based on my limited experience, Pakistanis seem to be a lot more prolific in their condemnation of their own government than Indians. Maybe its the lessons learned from Bangladesh and the general mistrust of government, I'm not really sure. Most educated Pakistanis in this forum will condemn what is happening in Balochistan and do speak up but it is most definitely not enough. More importantly everybody in Pakistan, even the callous people who might condone it, realize why the Baloch movement is occuring. We are more than aware that it is neglect on the states part that caused this.But regarding Kashmir issue, most educated Indians i have seen online or met in real life don't even realize why Pakistan supports Kashmiris, or why the independence struggle is occurring. Their go to response is either Pakistan hates India and wants to conquer us with sharia, kashmiris are misguided, or that there is a problem with Islam. Frankly this is very patronizing, not only to Pakistanis and Kashmiris, but also to patriotic Indian muslims.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Very interesting thread.

Well articulated by OP.

Holier than thou attitude is something done by all.

This is not in direct response to OP's question but it kinda is relevant too:

Pakistan (and when I say Pakistan, I am referring to establishment and not people per se) should be the LAST person in the world to talk about doing what's right. They carried out genocide in East Pakistan (present day Bangladesh), its intelligence agency is notorious for making people disappear in Pakistan, still harbour terrorists to wage proxy wars against India (yes, I know there are other terrorists that affect Pakistan too), instigate many uprisings in Kashmir...

AND THEN act like they have moral high ground when it comes to Kashmir (when ironically the mess started when they illegally attacked Kashmir in 1947 which led to India quoting that and attacking Hyderabad the next year - long story).

They don't give a DAMN about Kashmiris.

They just want the land just like Indians do.

Kashmiris are the ones who are caught in the cross fire between two crazy nations.

As for Pakistanis, they keep throwing out phrases like "UN Resolution", "illegal occupation", "so called democracy" while majority of them have little to no understanding of the situation.

As for Indians, reading majority of posts reg Kashmir online makes me shake my head. Barring a few, there is no depth or inclination to understand the situation or even consider various possibilities (true progress can ONLY be made if everything is brought to the table and analyzed). Its not even about the viewpoint, its about how you look at it. People who question anything get branded as traitors. There is an "us vs them" scenario created and many happily take refuge in their chosen camp letting someone else fight their battle.

I am no authority on Kashmir but its very rare to find truly genuine posts reg this topic. But there are plenty super charged up, surface level logic based substance-less battles from both sides with tons of name calling.

While I see a part of where you are coming from, i don't think those issues pertain to having a holier than thou attitude that I am speaking about. Maybe they did regarding Bangladesh a long time ago before I was born, but not today. Even though a lot of people might not want to admit to a genocide, everybody realizes that we messed up bad and that it was our leaders fault that Bangladesh separated. Open any thread on who the worst leader in Pakistan was and Bangladesh is bound to come up. Flawed as we may be, there is self-awareness of the nations screw ups.

Secondly I would say that whether a Mahraja signed a document or not, whether Pakistan invaded or not, that is all irrelevant to the rights of Kashmiri people to seek independence. The sooner we all forget about UN resolutions, Mahrajas, and look at the reality on the ground, the better. Its not like Pakistan presenting a fool proof legal document that Kashmir belonged to Pakistan will change anything. India will just laugh and rip the paper up. Same vice-versa

 

[Artless Dodges]

How? Are people from Kashmir not allowed to vote OR study OR shift OR send representatives to parliament?

Zilla/ province argument is not non sense , agreed it did not happen so far but the sentiments are same in case people of a certain section want autonomous power. It just doesn't happen that way.

If majority of Kashmiri people are not naive/ misguided there wouldn't have been ethnic cleansing of pandits between 85-95.

Current Kashmiri struggle is real and I do accept that, I neither do support some ghastly activities by our army either; it's a waste of hard earned tax payers money. But the point in contention is neither we nor Pakistanis are holier than thou in this aspect and GOI quite clearly knows what will happen once Kashmir gets separated with neighbors like China and Pak.

If in 1947, I was told that Pakistan would receive seats in the British Parliament, equal rights, and monetary benefit if we decided to stay, I would still chose to leave. Doesn't make me an idiot. I just don't want to be part of a nation that I don't identify with. I want my capital to be by the Indus not the Thames and I want my PM to be born in Lahore or Peshawar, not Leeds or Kent.If a majority of my countrymen share my opinion, then there is a good chance a revolution might arise to fight for independence.

The ethnic cleansing of the pandits was a tragedy and they should be part of any referendum that might occur in the future, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of Kashmiris didnt want to be part of India. If a referendum occurred in 1948, everybody would have lived happily with India ensuring that Pandits had fair representation in any independent nation. But the situation escalated to violence, and violence begets more violence. The rational voices often get drowned and extremists have their way as can be seen in other independence struggles. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT KASHMIRIS ARE MISGUIDED.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

While I see a part of where you are coming from, i don't think those issues pertain to having a holier than thou attitude that I am speaking about. Maybe they did regarding Bangladesh a long time ago before I was born, but not today. Even though a lot of people might not want to admit to a genocide, everybody realizes that we messed up bad and that it was our leaders fault that Bangladesh separated. Open any thread on who the worst leader in Pakistan was and Bangladesh is bound to come up. Flawed as we may be, there is self-awareness of the nations screw ups.

Secondly I would say that whether a Mahraja signed a document or not, whether Pakistan invaded or not, that is all irrelevant to the rights of Kashmiri people to seek independence. The sooner we all forget about UN resolutions, Mahrajas, and look at the reality on the ground, the better. Its not like Pakistan presenting a fool proof legal document that Kashmir belonged to Pakistan will change anything. India will just laugh and rip the paper up. Same vice-versa

Its not like Pakistan presenting a fool proof legal document that Kashmir belonged to Pakistan will change anything. India will just laugh and rip the paper up. Same vice-versa

Absolutely true.

Sums up the situation.

But with that being said, that doesn't invalidate the legality of stuff as it happened in the past. If it were the other way around, the other party would use those arguments too.

While I see a part of where you are coming from, i don't think those issues pertain to having a holier than thou attitude that I am speaking about. Maybe they did regarding Bangladesh a long time ago before I was born, but not today. Even though a lot of people might not want to admit to a genocide, everybody realizes that we messed up bad and that it was our leaders fault that Bangladesh separated. Open any thread on who the worst leader in Pakistan was and Bangladesh is bound to come up. Flawed as we may be, there is self-awareness of the nations screw ups.

First of all, I have seen more Pakistanis be willing to criticize every aspect of their nation as compared to Indians. Its an admirable quality.

However the general set isn't like that.

There is a lot of holier than thou attitude.

The whole Kashmir narrative is based on it where its presented like Pakistan wants to free Kashmir from India's clutches.

Bad India...illegal India (reality is opposite).....terrorist state.....why they post so many army men (which happened after 80s riots when Pandits were driven out)...etc. People even go as far as (and this is not a fringe case example) talk about how Indians haven't honored the UN resolution with such conviction that even a neutral would think India really didn't do it. When reality is something completely different (where one side had to remove all troops first). Many don't even realize or acknowledge that Pakistan attacked Kashmir first which started the mess which even a Kashmir gentleman acknowledges here in PP (and he doesn't support Kashmir being part of India).

So many of the facts get lost in this narrative.

As for criticism, the equivalent of an Indian criticizing his govt is a Pakistani criticizing his ARMY (not govt).

How many do that?

Pak Army/ISI is held in high regards by the majority (barring exceptions).

They were the ones who committed the Bangladesh genocide.

They were the ones who instigated proxy wars in India.

They were the ones who didn't finish off home grown terrorists which hurt Pakistan economically as well as create a security problem (not to mention the death of countless Pakistanis).

They were the ones who ensure Pakistan always remains under their clutches with their constant takeovers.

They were the ones whose one leader's moves started the radicalization of the nation.

They were the ones who have done nothing to curb Saudi influence in the region (yes this is a complex issue).

Its very easy to criticize Pak govt which is powerless most of the time.

But its the Army/ISI which hold all the power. Very few Pakistanis criticize them. Yes, many Pakistanis do feel bad about the Bangladesh issue no doubt, but the core issue gets lost.

Pak army even got involved in the SL-Tamil war and helped SL and I didn't see any outrage over that (from a moral perspective) and there are threads about that topic here on PP.

Everyone plays the angel card well.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT KASHMIRIS ARE MISGUIDED.

They were. In 1990 fatwas were issued to identify non Muslim Kashmiris for targeted conversion or killings. Mass exodus happened as they had only 2 options. This happened because they brain washed that this land belongs to us and we need to drive the kafirs out slogans.

This exiled community is hoping to return for the past 15-20 years to their lands/ houses which is not going to happen unfortunately.

Only reason why many want to be with PAK from J n K is because of religion. How does me or any online poster agreeing to sufferings of current day Kashmiri people bring any justice to anyone? This is not hypocrisy whenever Kashmir issue is brought we like to talk about whole consensus which led to it starting from Land annexure, insurgency, LOC, Kashmiri pandits, China's role, etc. where as others want to discuss only 1 thing i.e., majority don't like India so why are you controlling that region

This isn't a plain vanilla issue and can't be solved anytime soon.

 

[Slog]

Very interesting thread.

Well articulated by OP.

Holier than thou attitude is something done by all.

This is not in direct response to OP's question but it kinda is relevant too:

Pakistan (and when I say Pakistan, I am referring to establishment and not people per se) should be the LAST person in the world to talk about doing what's right. They carried out genocide in East Pakistan (present day Bangladesh), its intelligence agency is notorious for making people disappear in Pakistan, still harbour terrorists to wage proxy wars against India (yes, I know there are other terrorists that affect Pakistan too), instigate many uprisings in Kashmir...

AND THEN act like they have moral high ground when it comes to Kashmir (when ironically the mess started when they illegally attacked Kashmir in 1947 which led to India quoting that and attacking Hyderabad the next year - long story).

They don't give a DAMN about Kashmiris.

They just want the land just like Indians do.

Kashmiris are the ones who are caught in the cross fire between two crazy nations.

As for Pakistanis, they keep throwing out phrases like "UN Resolution", "illegal occupation", "so called democracy" while majority of them have little to no understanding of the situation.

As for Indians, reading majority of posts reg Kashmir online makes me shake my head. Barring a few, there is no depth or inclination to understand the situation or even consider various possibilities (true progress can ONLY be made if everything is brought to the table and analyzed). Its not even about the viewpoint, its about how you look at it. People who question anything get branded as traitors. There is an "us vs them" scenario created and many happily take refuge in their chosen camp letting someone else fight their battle.

I am no authority on Kashmir but its very rare to find truly genuine posts reg this topic. But there are plenty super charged up, surface level logic based substance-less battles from both sides with tons of name calling.

It's simple. Very simple

Internationally Kashmir is recognised as disputed territory. The other examples you mention aren't recognised as such. So by bringing in Balochistan or Khalistan or the north east of India, people are only indulging in false equivalence

 

[TM Riddle]

Bottom line is that Kashmir due to it's strategic location is stuck between two nations that have no regard for morality, and are doing what is best for their own interest.

This.
Anyone who thinks Pakistan is helping Kashmiri separatists out of goodwill of their heart and because they share the pain of the oppressed are living in cloud cuckoo land and don't have a slightest idea about ground realities.The land is STRATEGICALLY very important and India would be the biggest fool ever if she decides to grant independence to it with Chinese threat just around the corner.I'm sure even the most thickest of minds on pakpassion would agree that India is spending way too much of its resources in Kashmir without having any tangible benefits in sight.It all comes down to the strategic importance of the valley.Pakistani establishment doesn't give two hoots about the plight of Kashmiri secessionists and have used the issue for its own benefits to justify waging proxy wars against India and consolidate its stronghold over the gullible awam of Pakistan.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Why do Pakistanis here have a holier than thou attitude regarding Kashmir when you have been carrying out Baloch genocide for ages?

We are not pretending to be angels. Be it indigenous freedom movement, or Pak funded terror camps in Kashmir, both will be crushed as it happens to be in India's national interest.

Can you at least BOTHER to read the OP? I respect you as a poster but you have got to stop being so biased and start looking at things they way they are. The poster clearly mentioned that the Baluchistan argument would be valid however Baloch nationalists are a MINORITY. Please google what that means. If more than 50% of the population of Baluchistan would want independence, then it is their right and every single Pakistani should work towards giving them their right. - However, unfortunately for you, that is not the case.

Unlike Balochistan, Kashmiri nationalists (people who want Kashmir to be an independent state) are in the MAJORITY. Again, please google what this means. India promised UN to hold a referendum in Kashmir back in the 50's under Nehru IIRC and that has still not happened. I think that should be enough proof to the fact that even the Govt. knows that if they hold the referendum, they would have no choice but to let Kashmir go.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Your argument is flawed.

SL Tamils wanted a separate nation because they were ill treated by Buddhists but did it happen? Going by your logic, if my town/ zilla/ province doesn't like being with India should our families move out or declare independence that this is our land and we have been living here for ages?

Last but not least why did this Kashmir issue become intense in late 80's or early 90's? Who triggered it? Who benefits from this stir?

Excuse you my friend. Please, if you don't don't have an adequate amount of knowledge regarding certain subjects, refrain from commenting because you only portray yourself as the indifferent person you are. No offense intended. Kashmir issue has been on the rise in Pakistan since 1947. In fact, we've taken this issue to the UN several times in the 50's and 60's. Nehru even promised a referendum to be held in Kashmir, but like always, India did not stick to their promises and that referendum is yet to be held.

So, please, do some research. Read a couple of books on History. Your biased Indian News Channels (or even Pakistani ones at that) should not be the sources of your information. Otherwise you will make a mockery out of yourself just like right now.

 

[Sidilicious]

Excuse you my friend. Please, if you don't don't have an adequate amount of knowledge regarding certain subjects, refrain from commenting because you only portray yourself as the indifferent person you are. No offense intended. Kashmir issue has been on the rise in Pakistan since 1947. In fact, we've taken this issue to the UN several times in the 50's and 60's. Nehru even promised a referendum to be held in Kashmir, but like always, India did not stick to their promises and that referendum is yet to be held.

So, please, do some research. Read a couple of books on History. Your biased Indian News Channels (or even Pakistani ones at that) should not be the sources of your information. Otherwise you will make a mockery out of yourself just like right now.

Firstly, please get your facts right. Pakistan has not met the conditions for a referendum. Please read the full details before posting.

 

[ExpressPacer]

No one is talking about what percentage of Balochis desire freedom, the point I am raising is human rights violations.

Pakistanis like to cry about the pictures of injured Kashmiri kids or some militant dying. But how many have shed a tear for 1000 Balochis murdered and bodies dumped since 2011 (a period that is supposed to be relatively peaceful)?

How many Pakistanis shed a tear when thousands were murdered to curb separatist movements in 2000s? When the same population cries about injured Kashmiris on daily basis...I find it ridiculous and I am sure that you share the sentiment too.

With all due respect, I fail to understand your logic every single time. Maybe it is my ineptness, who knows. You justify the wrongs of India by accusing Pakistan of doing the same? That does not make any sense. That is just like ISIS justififying the killing Shias or Kurdish people because Hitler did worse to the Jew's. What are you trying to get at with this?

Even if we are to go by your logic, the amount of travesties Kashmir has seen at the hands of your Govt. will still much more compared to whatever happened in Balochistan ever since 1947 combined. But I'm not going to go by that attitude. This is exactly what the OP said. You have a Holier than thou attitude and you are showing it again.

We Pakistani's are many things, call us terrorists, illiterates or whatever you may but one thing we are not is delusional. The level of delusion of the majority of Indians is dangerous. We criticise our government for where it is wrong but you guys have this unprecedented support of your Govt. which is seriously beyond me.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Very interesting thread.

Well articulated by OP.

Holier than thou attitude is something done by all.

This is not in direct response to OP's question but it kinda is relevant too:

Pakistan (and when I say Pakistan, I am referring to establishment and not people per se) should be the LAST person in the world to talk about doing what's right. They carried out genocide in East Pakistan (present day Bangladesh), its intelligence agency is notorious for making people disappear in Pakistan, still harbour terrorists to wage proxy wars against India (yes, I know there are other terrorists that affect Pakistan too), instigate many uprisings in Kashmir...

AND THEN act like they have moral high ground when it comes to Kashmir (when ironically the mess started when they illegally attacked Kashmir in 1947 which led to India quoting that and attacking Hyderabad the next year - long story).

They don't give a DAMN about Kashmiris.

They just want the land just like Indians do.

Kashmiris are the ones who are caught in the cross fire between two crazy nations.

As for Pakistanis, they keep throwing out phrases like "UN Resolution", "illegal occupation", "so called democracy" while majority of them have little to no understanding of the situation.

As for Indians, reading majority of posts reg Kashmir online makes me shake my head. Barring a few, there is no depth or inclination to understand the situation or even consider various possibilities (true progress can ONLY be made if everything is brought to the table and analyzed). Its not even about the viewpoint, its about how you look at it. People who question anything get branded as traitors. There is an "us vs them" scenario created and many happily take refuge in their chosen camp letting someone else fight their battle.

I am no authority on Kashmir but its very rare to find truly genuine posts reg this topic. But there are plenty super charged up, surface level logic based substance-less battles from both sides with tons of name calling.

SIF, honestly speaking, you are a great poster on the cricket forum and perhaps one of the bests. However, you are equally good on Time Pass even though I've noticed you don't post much on such topics. You are by far my favourite poster on Time Pass (whenever you post), there is no biasness and you have genuine knowledge of what's going on and of History. This again is a great post however your post is exactly what this thread is about, no? Sure, Pakistan has no right to even comment on other countries being hostile towards minorities or certain regions for what we've done to Ahmedies or East Pakistan however the India people and the Govt. need to stop having a holier than thou attitude pretending as if this is Utopia and everything is perfect in the land of Unicorns and Pixies?

The justification for the travesties in Kashmir cannot be, "Pakistan's done the same!". We need to realize country's that Kashmir is suffering in this war between two enemies.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Firstly, please get your facts right. Pakistan has not met the conditions for a referendum. Please read the full details before posting.

Actually, I have. I don't know what your Govt. is teaching you in schools or what your sources are but the simple fact is that India has not arranged the referendum. If you're speaking of the Simla agreement, then let me assure you that the referendum does not fall in the bracket.

 

[Sidilicious]

Actually, I have. I don't know what your Govt. is teaching you in schools or what your sources are but the simple fact is that India has not arranged the referendum. If you're speaking of the Simla agreement, then let me assure you that the referendum does not fall in the bracket.

The first and foremost requirement of holding a referendum is that Pakistan needs to withdraw its forces from all of Kashmir

 

[Artless Dodges]

I would just like to correct one thing. The population of Pashtuns in Balochistan is 30-40% though I suspect it will go up after this census. Apologies for the mistake but my point still stands.

I will address some of the points raised you guys when I find time. I do think some people missed the point of of what I said though. The average Pakistani has a deep affinity for Kashmiri people but our state policy is probably more dictated by national interest so I don't see why people bring it up when i clearly addressed as much in OP. Furthermore, I didn't want to get into historical grievances such as the treatment of Kashmiri pandits, UN resolutions, lashkar invasion in 1947 because these events are not so clear cut as the posters here make it seem but require a deeper analysis of partition itself, accession of Juagadh, state sponsored massacre of 100,000+ Muslims in Jammu pre-partition, role of Jinnah Nehru Mountbatten, and a whole can of worms that frankly I don't want to get into. But I do see some of [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] point about the historical holes in Pakistan Kashmir narrative.

 

[bleaf27]

At least you are honest. India keeping Kashmir because of self-interest is something I can respect. Now if only your fellow countrymen would stop the moral diarrhea. That is all I ask.

Regarding Balochistan, maybe you should have read the OP before typing none-sense. 50% of balochistan is pashtun and half the baloch tribes are pro-Pakistan. The province has legitimate grievances but if a referendum was held tomorrow, i would bet my house that not even 35% would vote to secede. Of course you are going to conveniently ignore this. Lastly, if the majority in Balochistan want freedom, they have a legitimate right to fight for it.

Your agenda is so obvious , it makes your argument's looks stupid. You keep ranting about it being Pashtun - why is that of any significance ? People tend to throw number to make their argument look educated. So keeping that in mind ,
50 % of Balochistan is Pashtun - Do you have the recent stats from Surveys ? Secondly what does being Pashtun has to do with the undermining of Baloch atrocities ?
Secondly, 50 % of baloch tribes are pro-pakistan ? Did the 50 % of those tribes walked over to you and told you so ? Like I know you have an agenda to prove but some good statistics will be better than random numbers you can come up with.
Again you'll bet your house not even 35 % would vote for the motion , not wishing to get you homeless or anything but again where are these magic numbers coming from ?
They have a right to fight for it ? What else do you think they are doing ? The mass graves , the killings and oppression in Balochistan is being squashed for what ? Asking for a McDonald's franchise ?

 

[bleaf27]

Actually, I have. I don't know what your Govt. is teaching you in schools or what your sources are but the simple fact is that India has not arranged the referendum. If you're speaking of the Simla agreement, then let me assure you that the referendum does not fall in the bracket.

It is not in schools , It is in the UN resolution.

 

[Zak_Fan]

With all due respect, I fail to understand your logic every single time. Maybe it is my ineptness, who knows. You justify the wrongs of India by accusing Pakistan of doing the same? That does not make any sense. That is just like ISIS justififying the killing Shias or Kurdish people because Hitler did worse to the Jew's. What are you trying to get at with this?

Even if we are to go by your logic, the amount of travesties Kashmir has seen at the hands of your Govt. will still much more compared to whatever happened in Balochistan ever since 1947 combined. But I'm not going to go by that attitude. This is exactly what the OP said. You have a Holier than thou attitude and you are showing it again.

We Pakistani's are many things, call us terrorists, illiterates or whatever you may but one thing we are not is delusional. The level of delusion of the majority of Indians is dangerous. We criticise our government for where it is wrong but you guys have this unprecedented support of your Govt. which is seriously beyond me.

Indeed, it is your ineptness. I don't justify anything, I just blast the hypocrisy Pakistani population has when it comes to highlighting plight of Kashmiris. This holier than thou attitude coming from people who don't care about Pakistani army butchering their own Baloch countrymen disgusts me.

 

[Robbie]

Actually, I have. I don't know what your Govt. is teaching you in schools or what your sources are but the simple fact is that India has not arranged the referendum. If you're speaking of the Simla agreement, then let me assure you that the referendum does not fall in the bracket.

Its funny when u accuse people of not knowing facts when you are the only one who does not know the actual fact of the condition that pakistan has to fulfill before referendum could be arranged..
I suggest you read the resolution first

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

SIF, honestly speaking, you are a great poster on the cricket forum and perhaps one of the bests. However, you are equally good on Time Pass even though I've noticed you don't post much on such topics. You are by far my favourite poster on Time Pass (whenever you post), there is no biasness and you have genuine knowledge of what's going on and of History. This again is a great post however your post is exactly what this thread is about, no? Sure, Pakistan has no right to even comment on other countries being hostile towards minorities or certain regions for what we've done to Ahmedies or East Pakistan however the India people and the Govt. need to stop having a holier than thou attitude pretending as if this is Utopia and everything is perfect in the land of Unicorns and Pixies?

The justification for the travesties in Kashmir cannot be, "Pakistan's done the same!". We need to realize country's that Kashmir is suffering in this war between two enemies.

Thank for your kind words.

Just to be clear, reg the Pakistan thing, I was talking more in terms of establishment rather than people.

Pakistan or Indian or people from any nationality can talk about every issue regardless of what happens in their own nation. As long as one has consistent viewpoints, its fine.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It's simple. Very simple

Internationally Kashmir is recognised as disputed territory. The other examples you mention aren't recognised as such. So by bringing in Balochistan or Khalistan or the north east of India, people are only indulging in false equivalence

Its not about which events are the equivalent of what.

Its about how people perceive different incidents happening in the world and their responses for each.

 

[Slog]

Your agenda is so obvious , it makes your argument's looks stupid. You keep ranting about it being Pashtun - why is that of any significance ? People tend to throw number to make their argument look educated. So keeping that in mind ,
50 % of Balochistan is Pashtun - Do you have the recent stats from Surveys ? Secondly what does being Pashtun has to do with the undermining of Baloch atrocities ?
Secondly, 50 % of baloch tribes are pro-pakistan ? Did the 50 % of those tribes walked over to you and told you so ? Like I know you have an agenda to prove but some good statistics will be better than random numbers you can come up with.
Again you'll bet your house not even 35 % would vote for the motion , not wishing to get you homeless or anything but again where are these magic numbers coming from ?
They have a right to fight for it ? What else do you think they are doing ? The mass graves , the killings and oppression in Balochistan is being squashed for what ? Asking for a McDonald's franchise ?

He is wrong when he says 50% of Baloch tribes are pro Pakistan

Only 2 out of more than 10+ want indeendence so he number is higher

And yes he is correct that Balochistan is almost 50% Pashtun. Maube more. We'll find out from this census

 

[Slog]

Its not about which events are the equivalent of what.

Its about how people perceive different incidents happening in the world and their responses for each.

No I'm referring to this automatic move by Indians to bring up Balochistan whenever Kashmir is highlighted.

Asides from the obvious fact that the atrocities aren't even comparable, the more important issue is that Kashmir is a disputed, unresolved issue. Balochistan isn't

 

[bleaf27]

He is wrong when he says 50% of Baloch tribes are pro Pakistan

Only 2 out of more than 10+ want indeendence so he number is higher

And yes he is correct that Balochistan is almost 50% Pashtun. Maube more. We'll find out from this census

Being Pashtun regardless of 50 % does not imply a pro pakistani stance .
In 1948 Balochistan was annexed by the Pakistani army. Urdu isn't what the Baloch identify with which is prevalent in Pakistan so even culturally there has never been an assimilation.
The size of Balochistan which is roughly close to 40-45% of land in Pakistan has the lowest densities of roads , minimal rail system and pretty much is left to fend for itself.
With the history of kidnappings and "missing persons" in Balochistan, the hard handed millitary rule in Balochistan is further alienating that crowd.

 

[bleaf27]

No I'm referring to this automatic move by Indians to bring up Balochistan whenever Kashmir is highlighted.

Asides from the obvious fact that the atrocities aren't even comparable, the more important issue is that Kashmir is a disputed, unresolved issue. Balochistan isn't

Kashmir is disputed according to Pakistani's only because of the rhetoric sentiment prevalent in Pakistan. Sounds absurd to us. If I tell you that Karachi is a disputed territory - if that sounds stupid to you , that's exactly how Indians find it stupid when Pakistani's say Kashmir is a disputed territory.

 

[Slog]

Kashmir is disputed according to Pakistani's only because of the rhetoric sentiment prevalent in Pakistan. Sounds absurd to us. If I tell you that Karachi is a disputed territory - if that sounds stupid to you , that's exactly how Indians find it stupid when Pakistani's say Kashmir is a disputed territory.

Doesn't matter what Indians find or think

United Nations and almost all countries consider Kashmir as disputed territory

All these international organizations and countries deem Balochistan to be part of Pakistan

So it's not just a Pakistani claim.

Learn and get educated

 

[bleaf27]

Doesn't matter what Indians find or think

United Nations and almost all countries consider Kashmir as disputed territory

All these international organizations and countries deem Balochistan to be part of Pakistan

So it's not just a Pakistani claim.

Learn and get educated

Kashmir as a disputed territory is a well one PR stunt by the Pakistani factory. UN and other countries ( almost all countries ? lol) may agree to you or your views but the reason UN ,US, UK or any other country will never step in it is because they are quite aware and no one is stupid enough to support Pakistan on its hue and cry.

 

[bleaf27]

Doesn't matter what Indians find or think

United Nations and almost all countries consider Kashmir as disputed territory

All these international organizations and countries deem Balochistan to be part of Pakistan

So it's not just a Pakistani claim.

Learn and get educated

When India is already having a bigger muslim population than Pakistan, a better GDP , growth potential , why would anyone would want to argue on it's point. If pakistan ceases the Kashmir issue - it would cease to exist as there is nothing else on the plate for Pakistan except Kashmir. All their focus / energy / politics / fundamentalistic attitude / terror groups - everything is based upon that.
If one day let's say Pak PM says Kashmir issue is done , I can imagine people clueless in the country as to what to do now ?

 

[Slog]

Kashmir as a disputed territory is a well one PR stunt by the Pakistani factory. UN and other countries ( almost all countries ? lol) may agree to you or your views but the reason UN ,US, UK or any other country will never step in it is because they are quite aware and no one is stupid enough to support Pakistan on its hue and cry.

Haha got triggered

 

[Artless Dodges]

Being Pashtun regardless of 50 % does not imply a pro pakistani stance .
In 1948 Balochistan was annexed by the Pakistani army. Urdu isn't what the Baloch identify with which is prevalent in Pakistan so even culturally there has never been an assimilation.
The size of Balochistan which is roughly close to 40-45% of land in Pakistan has the lowest densities of roads , minimal rail system and pretty much is left to fend for itself.
With the history of kidnappings and "missing persons" in Balochistan, the hard handed millitary rule in Balochistan is further alienating that crowd.

Are you thick or something? Stop derailing the thread when you clearly have no idea what your on about.


[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] You are right 50% is an extremely high number and I doubt it was even close to that in Musharraf era. I used the most liberal percentage possible to demonstrate how the numbers don't add up and never have.

 

[bleaf27]

Haha got triggered

Definitely not. US/UK/UN always steps in for every remote issue in the world - ever wondered Why no one ever did for Kashmir issue ? Pakistan has been crying for quite a bit now but everyone just pats their head and Pakistan continues to jump everywhere. I don't see anything more than to have happened or to happen in the future.

 

[bleaf27]

Are you thick or something? Stop derailing the thread when you clearly have no idea what your on about.


[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] You are right 50% is an extremely high number and I doubt it was even close to that in Musharraf era. I used the most liberal percentage possible to demonstrate how the numbers don't add up and never have.

For your limited comprehension or lack of ability to scroll on a computer, the thread was derailed quite a long time before you came to save the day. I don't have an idea what I'm talking about but you throwing numbers here like confetti on a christening - stop your similar rhetoric in a new package . Only if you did understand some math you'd know some logic behind em

 

[Slog]

Definitely not. US/UK/UN always steps in for every remote issue in the world - ever wondered Why no one ever did for Kashmir issue ? Pakistan has been crying for quite a bit now but everyone just pats their head and Pakistan continues to jump everywhere. I don't see anything more than to have happened or to happen in the future.

They do call it disputed territory and that's what the fact is

 

[bleaf27]

They do call it disputed territory and that's what the fact is

Like I said it's a job well done by the Pakistani PR.
If your whole aim is to be happy by terming it is disputed then sure that's great.
If it was a genuine case or anyone believed in the matter - Pakistan would have had backing to it - till date there has been none

 

[Slog]

Like I said it's a job well done by the Pakistani PR.
If your whole aim is to be happy by terming it is disputed then sure that's great.
If it was a genuine case or anyone believed in the matter - Pakistan would have had backing to it - till date there has been none

Yes Pakistani PR holds Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan

And the whole point is to show the false equivalence you guys indulge in.

 

[PakLFC]

Co if India losses Kashmir all the other states seeking freedom will be inspired. It will then just be a matter of time before the story of India came to a crushing end. India and it's politicians know this very well. The loss of Kashmir will start the break up of the so called Indian union.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Excuse you my friend. Please, if you don't don't have an adequate amount of knowledge regarding certain subjects, refrain from commenting because you only portray yourself as the indifferent person you are. No offense intended. Kashmir issue has been on the rise in Pakistan since 1947. In fact, we've taken this issue to the UN several times in the 50's and 60's. Nehru even promised a referendum to be held in Kashmir, but like always, India did not stick to their promises and that referendum is yet to be held.

So, please, do some research. Read a couple of books on History. Your biased Indian News Channels (or even Pakistani ones at that) should not be the sources of your information. Otherwise you will make a mockery out of yourself just like right now.

We have both have our sources of information reg Kashmir. What history books are you referring to? Insurgency in 89 happened primarily because of Mujahideen fighters from AFG post soviet invasion, they were supported and encouraged by ISI. Calling others 'indifferent' because they have a different perspective from yours is naive. Referendum can take place only when PAK takes out all it's invaders/ infiltrates.

 

[Kaptan]

Co if India losses Kashmir all the other states seeking freedom will be inspired. It will then just be a matter of time before the story of India came to a crushing end. India and it's politicians know this very well. The loss of Kashmir will start the break up of the so called Indian union.

Can you name some states which are seeking freedom ?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Can you name some states which are seeking freedom ?

He does have a point, whether it is false or not is irrelevant. However Kashmir will never be given independence or definitely not to Pakistan lol....Indians and PAkistanis will just bark at each other and that is all that will come out of it...

 

[Braveheart]

No one is talking about what percentage of Balochis desire freedom, the point I am raising is human rights violations.

Pakistanis like to cry about the pictures of injured Kashmiri kids or some militant dying. But how many have shed a tear for 1000 Balochis murdered and bodies dumped since 2011 (a period that is supposed to be relatively peaceful)?

How many Pakistanis shed a tear when thousands were murdered to curb separatist movements in 2000s? When the same population cries about injured Kashmiris on daily basis...I find it ridiculous and I am sure that you share the sentiment too.

You seem to forgetting the ethnic cleansing of mainly Punjabis from Balochistan, orchestrated and perpetrated by the Baloch & Pustoon 'Tribal' leaders. Backed by who I wonder?
This has been going on since the early 90's with many of my extended family members being being forced to leave Quetta and settle in Lahore.

 

[Pakpak]

No I'm referring to this automatic move by Indians to bring up Balochistan whenever Kashmir is highlighted.

Asides from the obvious fact that the atrocities aren't even comparable, the more important issue is that Kashmir is a disputed, unresolved issue. Balochistan isn't

The correct number is 2 tribes out of 46. Those two tribes have leaders sitting in Europe, and one of those two tribes's followers disowned him for asking for Indian help.

 

[Zak_Fan]

He does have a point, whether it is false or not is irrelevant. However Kashmir will never be given independence or definitely not to Pakistan lol....Indians and PAkistanis will just bark at each other and that is all that will come out of it...

For now, it is a two-way barking, but it should not be the case for long. Kudos to Pakistan for keeping up with India so far, but as Indian economic and military might continues to widen the gulf, all that pressure from Western frontier will be reduced to insignificant proportions.

Hopefully, that will be the point when Pakistan will realize the futility of it's efforts, and that could be the beginning of a different approach where the aim isn't to break India, but to cooperate in making Kashmir better for it's people.

 

[MenInG]

Kashmir is the topic here

 

[PakLFC]

Can you name some states which are seeking freedom ?

Well okay maybe not states but places or communities. Naxalites, Sikhs, Assam and Seven sisters to name a few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_movements_of_India
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_movements_of_India