Why is there a difference in perception between Pakistan & India in the world?

[Traveller55]

You are not understanding.

An Indian is about 20% richer than a Bangladeshi, and about 25% richer than a Pakistan (based on GDP per capita). This despite India being one of the fastest growing economies and having a GDP that dwarfs Pakistan and Bangladesh combined.

Its not 'despite', its because of their fastest growing economy that they've left us in the dust.
20% or 25% are big numbers. Thats like saying the average indian eats an extra roti for every 4 roties the average paksitani eats.

The above is the sole reason why Indians choose to leave their country booming of so called riches and intellect; they feel poor even after 10+ years of economic growth. If an Indian moves to the UK, the GDP per capita is around $40000 - or simply put around 2200% (instead of 20% odd compared with it's neighbours).

This is precisely why Pakistan and Bangladesh do not need to compete with the Indian economy because GDP per capita remains on par with Indians. Hence the talk of economic boom and all is simply not relative.

catching up to us in late 90s and growing the gap to 1/4th to 1/5th better than us in less than 2 decades is the very definition of economic boom. Especially for a large economy.

If the current trends continue, in another 30 years, India will be as much richer than Pakistan/BD as Germany is to Ukraine.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Lol Freddie Mercury was ashamed of his Indian heritage, he identified mainly as a Parsi/Persian born in Zanzibar.

Yup. but if you grant the notion, by this token the Sikhs - Canadian citizens - responsible for terror attacks were also Indian because of their Indian heritage regardless of their citizenship or where they were born.

It's funny how the Indian origin logic works only one way, in a positive light.

 

[Traveller55]

Doesn't answer the terrorism question right? We'll worry about our internal affairs, don't need advice from Indians. China has been much better to us than you so why should we care?

i am not Indian.
I was born Paksitani,before Pakistan genocided my people and we broke away to form our own nation. And now, we are ahead of Pakistan in practically every measurable benchmark.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You having a laugh? Ben Kingsley was born in the UK! In Yorkshire of all places! His father was from Kenya!

Ethnic minorities have more credence than one who does not live in the UK!

He may have been born in buckingham palace, doesn't change what his ethnicity is. True, but I want the opinions of native white brits as they are the majority. When an ethnic minority makes a claim about what most brits think, it is hard to take it seriously.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Its not 'despite', its because of their fastest growing economy that they've left us in the dust.
20% or 25% are big numbers. Thats like saying the average indian eats an extra roti for every 4 roties the average paksitani eats.

catching up to us in late 90s and growing the gap to 1/4th to 1/5th better than us in less than 2 decades is the very definition of economic boom. Especially for a large economy.

If the current trends continue, in another 30 years, India will be as much richer than Pakistan/BD as Germany is to Ukraine.

20% and 25% are puny numbers compared to 1000%.

Richer? That's subjective.

In 30 years we shall see, but right now, Indians are fleeing India, because India does not offer the riches or opportunities which India professes at the international stage.

 

[TikkiTaka]

i am not Indian.
I was born Paksitani,before Pakistan genocided my people and we broke away to form our own nation. And now, we are ahead of Pakistan in practically every measurable benchmark.

The Mukti Bahini also commited genocide so don't give me this crap. We all know the numbers were inflated by the Awami league to gain worldwide sympathy. The only genocide that's happening is Indian hindus against Kashmiris and Indian Muslims.

 

[TikkiTaka]

20% and 25% are puny numbers compared to 1000%.

Richer? That's subjective.

In 30 years we shall see, but right now, Indians are fleeing India, because India does not offer the riches or opportunities which India professes at the international stage.

That's a risky argument to make cause Chinese are still leaving the country despite it's development. India's problem is that it's still a ****-hole and not any emerging superpower like the media tries to portray it to be. And it will never be the equal of China which is a greater country/civilization.

 

[faraz39]

The Mukti Bahini also commited genocide so don't give me this crap. We all know the numbers were inflated by the Awami league to gain worldwide sympathy. The only genocide that's happening is Indian hindus against Kashmiris and Indian Muslims.

Two wrongs don't make a right. By all accounts (numbers vary), the actions of West Pakistan were horrible during the 1971 war. It's a shameful part of Pakistan's history and we shouldn't dispute the actions (numbers can and will always be disputed but even the lower end is 300,000 or so).

What Mukti bahini did and what is happening to Kashmiri Muslims is also wrong. But we don't let that blind us to injustices of the past.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Again, its your personal opinion that they are white. They ethnicity is Indian origin British. Thats the fact.

But that's not the perception of those outside India, that is what I am telling you. That is what the thread is about right? The perception of Indians and Pakistanis in the outside world? Or do you want to keep telling the world what to think from Mumbai?

 

[TikkiTaka]

Two wrongs don't make a right. By all accounts (numbers vary), the actions of West Pakistan were horrible during the 1971 war. It's a shameful part of Pakistan's history and we shouldn't dispute the actions (numbers can and will always be disputed but even the lower end is 300,000 or so).

What Mukti bahini did and what is happening to Kashmiri Muslims is also wrong. But we don't let that blind us to injustices of the past.

Well there had been a covert campaign by Bengali Hindus to undermine the concept of Pakistan from the beginning. And conniving Indians took advantage. We had to fight back and yes mistakes might have been committed. But the numbers are highly exaggerrated. I'm bored of Bangladeshis harking back to that everytime. Genocide has happened on both sides.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Amir Khan born in Bolton is a Brit Pakistani. But Ben Kingsley born in Yorkshire isnt of Indian origin.lol.

Freedie Mercury was born to Indian parents in Zanzibar, grew up in mumbai.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

He may have been born in buckingham palace, doesn't change what his ethnicity is. True, but I want the opinions of native white brits as they are the majority. When an ethnic minority makes a claim about what most brits think, it is hard to take it seriously.

Agreed, so if you won't accept my native Brit views, tainted as they are by my Pakistani ancestry ( oh the shame I feel on your cruel reminder!)

Then let us put the question to pure blue blood Brits whose ancestors have roamed these lands since the days of Cheddar man and his unfittingly dark skin.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION], what are your thoughts on Kingsley and Mercury as Indian representatives?

 

[R3verse Swing]

This issue is not of ethnicity, it's of recognition.

Indians will only claim a person overseas is an Indian if said person is shown in positive light.

When it comes to negativity, Indian ethnicity is out the window. Lets start with Kieth Vaz and the AI182 bombers.

 

[TikkiTaka]

This issue is not of ethnicity, it's of recognition.

Indians will only claim a person overseas is an Indian if said person is shown in positive light.

When it comes to negativity, Indian ethnicity is out the window. Lets start with Kieth Vaz and the AI182 bombers.

They've done a really good job of it thought. The fake PR seems to have worked

 

[CricketCartoons]

But that's not the perception of those outside India, that is what I am telling you. That is what the thread is about right? The perception of Indians and Pakistanis in the outside world? Or do you want to keep telling the world what to think from Mumbai?

The main reason india doesnt have the perception it deserves is because it stays in a bad neighbourhood. If India was an island we would be rightfully counted among the top progressive nations of the world.

 

[CricketCartoons]

This issue is not of ethnicity, it's of recognition.

Indians will only claim a person overseas is an Indian if said person is shown in positive light.

When it comes to negativity, Indian ethnicity is out the window. Lets start with Kieth Vaz and the AI182 bombers.

Those who do bad deeds are not true indians..a true indian will always be progressive, courteous, hardworking and hygienic.

 

[TikkiTaka]

The main reason india doesnt have the perception it deserves is because it stays in a bad neighbourhood. If India was an island we would be rightfully counted among the top progressive nations of the world.

What rubbish. If anything, our problems make you look good. If we weren't around the fact that you were a intolerant, fascist, islamophobic country without basic sanitation or protections for women will become more obvious.

Your just lucky that Pakistan has become the scapegoat of the Western media due to Islamophobia that allows you to look more progressive.

 

[R3verse Swing]

They've done a really good job of it thought. The fake PR seems to have worked

The fake PR only works when the media helps propagate it, and we have established why Western media will appease Indian interest. However in the West either people have twigged the fake Indian PR, or are coming to realise Indian PR is fake.

As the old adage goes, all publicity is good publicity.

 

[Traveller55]

20% and 25% are puny numbers compared to 1000%.

Richer? That's subjective.

In 30 years we shall see, but right now, Indians are fleeing India, because India does not offer the riches or opportunities which India professes at the international stage.

They may be puny numbers compared to 10x, but a 20-25% difference, in ANY statistical analysis, is an entire standard deviation greater - ie, mathematically, those are very significant numbers.

In reality, being 20-25% richer is a huge difference to almost all wage-earning people.

Indians are not fleeing India in the same fashion as Pakistanis are fleeing Pakistan. Ofcourse, intellectual and ambitious class will leave ANY 3rd world nation and go to the west. Even the Chinese - much richer than all of us- suffers from brain drain.
But what is telling, is that Indians are not cramming into unsafe boats to be smuggled into Europe, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are.
This indicates that the flight of people from these nations are a far more acute problem than they are from India.

 

[CricketCartoons]

What rubbish. If anything, our problems make you look good. If we weren't around the fact that you were a intolerant, fascist, islamophobic country without basic sanitation or protections for women will become more obvious.

Your just lucky that Pakistan has become the scapegoat of the Western media due to Islamophobia that allows you to look more progressive.

You can't be further from the truth. Most of our problems are because of the bad neighbourhood. If it wasnt for Pakistan, we won't be spending money on weapons and would have used that for development. Our minority muslims won't be accused of being traitors and asked to move to pakistan, and we wouldnt have bollwyood, the worst thing spreading beghairaty among the masses. Even the worst places in india like delhi are close to pakistan and the better progressive places like south india are far from the border. Sad that we have to live with Pakistan as a neighbour which has slowed down our progress.

 

[TikkiTaka]

The fake PR only works when the media helps propagate it, and we have established why Western media will appease Indian interest. However in the West either people have twigged the fake Indian PR, or are coming to realise Indian PR is fake.

As the old adage goes, all publicity is good publicity.

Well India get lot of bad publicity when it's real stories about rape, lack of sanitation, hindu extremism.etc come out. But they've achieved their goal of maligning Pakistan well. For Pakistan, I never see a single positive story about the country covered in the world media. It's only for war, terrorism, honour killings and stuff.

 

[Traveller55]

The Mukti Bahini also commited genocide so don't give me this crap. We all know the numbers were inflated by the Awami league to gain worldwide sympathy. The only genocide that's happening is Indian hindus against Kashmiris and Indian Muslims.

Mukti Bahini's allegation of genocide is poorly supported and predominantly from Pakistani government sources.
There is no genocide of Kashmiris in India. Otherwise, India wouldn't have executed 10% of the number of Kashmiris, over 30 years, as Pakistan did for Bengalis in just under a year.

Compared to Pakistani military, the Indian military are angels.

 

[Traveller55]

Well there had been a covert campaign by Bengali Hindus to undermine the concept of Pakistan from the beginning. And conniving Indians took advantage. We had to fight back and yes mistakes might have been committed. But the numbers are highly exaggerrated. I'm bored of Bangladeshis harking back to that everytime. Genocide has happened on both sides.

Ofcourse India took advantage. Same way as Pakistan is taking advantage of the situation in J&K by fanning separatism.
The numbers are not from Awami league, they are from independent researchers from western universities. The bare-minimum number quoted is 300,000. The most accepted number is 1.2-1.5 million.
The 3 million is the upper end of Pakistan's genocide of my people.

As I said, compare that to India - they face insurgency due to separatism (Kashmir) over 30 years and they kill off 50-60,000 people without trial.
Pakistan faces insurgency due to separatism (Bangladesh) and end up killing 300K-3 million in under a year.
Any rational person can deduce that Indian military is far more humane than Pakistani military under similar circumstances.

 

[TikkiTaka]

Ofcourse India took advantage. Same way as Pakistan is taking advantage of the situation in J&K by fanning separatism.
The numbers are not from Awami league, they are from independent researchers from western universities. The bare-minimum number quoted is 300,000. The most accepted number is 1.2-1.5 million.
The 3 million is the upper end of Pakistan's genocide of my people.

As I said, compare that to India - they face insurgency due to separatism (Kashmir) over 30 years and they kill off 50-60,000 people without trial.
Pakistan faces insurgency due to separatism (Bangladesh) and end up killing 300K-3 million in under a year.
Any rational person can deduce that Indian military is far more humane than Pakistani military under similar circumstances.

Yeah cause the population of Bangladesh was more than 10 times that of Kashmir. There are only 6 million people in the Valley. It's simple propotionality. Plus it was a full-blown war in East Pakistan unlike in Kashmir.

Also in both cases it was Hindus who cheated to first steal land that was rightfully belonging to Pakistan, cause they can't reconcile themselves to Pakistan's existence. That's the truth.

 

[R3verse Swing]

You can't be further from the truth. Most of our problems are because of the bad neighbourhood. If it wasnt for Pakistan, we won't be spending money on weapons and would have used that for development. Our minority muslims won't be accused of being traitors and asked to move to pakistan, and we wouldnt have bollwyood, the worst thing spreading beghairaty among the masses. Even the worst places in india like delhi are close to pakistan and the better progressive places like south india are far from the border. Sad that we have to live with Pakistan as a neighbour which has slowed down our progress.

So China is not a bad neighbour then?

 

[Traveller55]

Yeah cause the population of Bangladesh was more than 10 times that of Kashmir. There are only 6 million people in the Valley. It's simple propotionality. Plus it was a full-blown war in East Pakistan unlike in Kashmir.

Also in both cases it was Hindus who cheated to first steal land that was rightfully belonging to Pakistan, cause they can't reconcile themselves to Pakistan's existence. That's the truth.

Ok. simple proportionality it is for you ??
Here's a math exercise :

50,000 of 6 million is 0.83%
Bangladesh's population in 1971 was approximately 70 million.
1.2 million (most accepted number amongst neutral scholars) of 70 million is 1.71%

And those are all killed inside ONE year, not spread over 30.
India's 'rate of killing the Kashmiris' is 0.027% per annum. Pakistan's in case of Bangladesh was 1.71% per annum.
Even if you take the lowest end estimate (300K), its 0.42% per annum. For the highest end estimate, its 5% per annum.

So India's kill rate of innocents : 0.027% per annum.
Pakistan's kill rate of innocents : 0.42%(lower end) - 1.71% (accepted as likely) - 5% (high end).

Ie, Pakistan's military killed innocents at 15-60 TIMES MORE frequency than Indian military kills the innocents.

Proves my point- Indian military are far more humane than Pakistani military.

ps: what land 'rightfully belonged to Pakistan' in both cases ?!?

 

[R3verse Swing]

They may be puny numbers compared to 10x, but a 20-25% difference, in ANY statistical analysis, is an entire standard deviation greater - ie, mathematically, those are very significant numbers.

In reality, being 20-25% richer is a huge difference to almost all wage-earning people.

Indians are not fleeing India in the same fashion as Pakistanis are fleeing Pakistan. Ofcourse, intellectual and ambitious class will leave ANY 3rd world nation and go to the west. Even the Chinese - much richer than all of us- suffers from brain drain.
But what is telling, is that Indians are not cramming into unsafe boats to be smuggled into Europe, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are.
This indicates that the flight of people from these nations are a far more acute problem than they are from India.

Pakistanis cramming into unsafe boats? You are basing this on the recent story of 16 Pakistanis that died in migrant boat tragedy off Libya?

 

[TikkiTaka]

Ok. simple proportionality it is for you ??
Here's a math exercise :

50,000 of 6 million is 0.83%
Bangladesh's population in 1971 was approximately 70 million.
1.2 million (most accepted number amongst neutral scholars) of 70 million is 1.71%

And those are all killed inside ONE year, not spread over 30.
India's 'rate of killing the Kashmiris' is 0.027% per annum. Pakistan's in case of Bangladesh was 1.71% per annum.
Even if you take the lowest end estimate (300K), its 0.42% per annum. For the highest end estimate, its 5% per annum.

So India's kill rate of innocents : 0.027% per annum.
Pakistan's kill rate of innocents : 0.42%(lower end) - 1.71% (accepted as likely) - 5% (high end).

Ie, Pakistan's military killed innocents at 15-60 TIMES MORE frequency than Indian military kills the innocents.

Proves my point- Indian military are far more humane than Pakistani military.

ps: what land 'rightfully belonged to Pakistan' in both cases ?!?

Which part of conventional war did you not understand? Obviously casualties will be greater in a full-blown war.

Kashmir should have come to Pakistan as per two-nation theory. India actively worked to partition East Pakistan to disprove two-nation theory. That's what I meant.

 

[Traveller55]

Pakistanis cramming into unsafe boats? You are basing this on the recent story of 16 Pakistanis that died in migrant boat tragedy off Libya?

Yep.
How many Indians are crossing into Europe via these illegal & highly unsafe means of travel ??

 

[Traveller55]

Which part of conventional war did you not understand? Obviously casualties will be greater in a full-blown war.

There are plenty of conventional wars where there is no genocide. Eg: America in Vietnam. America in Iraq.
USSR vs Afghanistan.
India vs China
India vs Pakistan (1965).

You are simply making excuses for the fact that Pakistan's military is the biggest genocidal force in the subcontinent.

Oh and incase you forgot, the conventional war started AFTER the genocide. Your genocidal army genocided us from late winter to late autumn of 1971. War started in December 1971.
Your military genocided us Bengalis before there was any war, so try that nonsense elsewhere.

Kashmir should have come to Pakistan as per two-nation theory. India actively worked to partition East Pakistan to disprove two-nation theory. That's what I meant.

East Pakistan's problem was created by West Pakistan. We used to earn more FOREX for United Pakistan than West Pakistan did, thanks to our jute export. Yet, West Pakistan stole our money and kept stealing our money, giving us 35-40% of the net revenue, while we earned 60-65% of the net revenue.
Then when we won the election fair and square, you decieded to overrule the election and impose military rule.
Any sane person will go get help to get out of such abusive discrimination.

And no, Kashmir doesn't go to Pakistan under 2 nation theory. Instrument of partition was explicit - vassal kingdoms had the CHOICE to go to India or Pakistan or remain independent. Kashmiri king exercised his sovereign right to stay independent, on which Pakistan invaded.
So the Kashmir mess was started by Pakistan when they impinged on Kashmiri right to self determination.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Yep.
How many Indians are crossing into Europe via these illegal & highly unsafe means of travel ??

16. That's it? This is enough for you to claim Pakistani are cramming themselves into boats?

Here, read this, 22 Indians, caught in Belgium - via Moscow and Italy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../The-new-route-of-human-smuggling-misery.html

 

[CricketCartoons]

So China is not a bad neighbour then?

How many bullets have been fired along the indo china border? China is a good neighbour. Pity we are separated by natural barriers.

 

[Traveller55]

16. That's it? This is enough for you to claim Pakistani are cramming themselves into boats?

Here, read this, 22 Indians, caught in Belgium - via Moscow and Italy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../The-new-route-of-human-smuggling-misery.html

Sure.
Then Indians are leaving their nation by dangerous route too.
Again, as I said, its irrelevant to the fact that India is the fastest growing major economy in the world and leaving all of us in its dust.
As I said, even Chinese people leave China to go settle in the west.

 

[Syed1]

Yep.
How many Indians are crossing into Europe via these illegal & highly unsafe means of travel ??

India has the highest rate of emigration in the world.... in layman terms alot of Indians are trying to leave shining India.

 

[Traveller55]

India has the highest rate of emigration in the world.... in layman terms alot of Indians are trying to leave shining India.

Well if Indians have the highest rate of immigration, then China is hot on its heels, given that overseas Chinese community is the largest overseas community in the world. Despite their economy being 10x better than India's they too are leaving.

So what does that tell you ??

If you are going to troll, atleast make it subtle like [MENTION=136588]CricketCartoons[/MENTION] and not make a fool out of yourself. If you really are 55 years old as you claim, as per our culture we are inclined to respect you because of your age but you are talking zero sense old man.

Age is just a number. Respect is earned through deeds, not from just simply existing. I give respect to people younger than me when they merit it, withhold it from people older than me when they merit it.

If you feel I am trolling or not making sense, point it out/ask for clarification and I will be happy to oblige.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Sure.
Then Indians are leaving their nation by dangerous route too.

OK good, so we can dispose of your generalisation.

Again, as I said, its irrelevant to the fact that India is the fastest growing major economy in the world and leaving all of us in its dust.
As I said, even Chinese people leave China to go settle in the west.

Irrelevant? You brought up the fallacy that Pakistanis are ramming themselves in boats based on 1 story! Now you have evidence of Indians escaping India via dangerous routes suddenly your point becomes irrelevant?

India is not the fastest economy in the world, it is one of the fastest, but not the fastest.

As for China, you will find mostly wealthy Chinese people want to leave China, but in India, even the poor want to leave! This is the difference!

 

[R3verse Swing]

How many bullets have been fired along the indo china border? China is a good neighbour. Pity we are separated by natural barriers.

Sino-Indian War ring a bell?

But no China is a good neighbour when it comes to this thread. I always read China was/is a threat to India. So much so India's militarily and economic growth aspires to China's achievements.

 

[Traveller55]

OK good, so we can dispose of your generalisation.

This is the difference between scientific mindset and religious mindset- I have already demonstrated that my views can be changed via evidence.

Irrelevant? You brought up the fallacy that Pakistanis are ramming themselves in boats based on 1 story! Now you have evidence of Indians escaping India via dangerous routes suddenly your point becomes irrelevant?

if you bothered to read, I said it even BEFORE that comment, that immigration is irrelevant to the fact that India is the fastest growing major economy and leaving us in their dust, because Chinese are also leaving China despite being far better off than all of us.

India is not the fastest economy in the world, it is one of the fastest, but not the fastest.

It is the fastest growing MAJOR economy in the world as defined by all economies who's nominal GDP is 1 trillion per annum or more.

As for China, you will find mostly wealthy Chinese people want to leave China, but in India, even the poor want to leave! This is the difference!

News to me. I live in a city dominated by the Chinese and most immigrants are working class people who bring over their moms and dads after they get a job here.

And I guess the difference between India and China is, while Chinese wealthy class wants to leave, hardly any wealthy Indian wants to leave India.
Its because India has far better human rights and property rights track record than China, so the ones who are rich, don't have to worry about the state seizing their assets on a whim in India, like they do in China.

 

[Traveller55]

[MENTION=143966]TikkiTaka[/MENTION], what happened to answering the fact that Pakistani army committed its genocide BEFORE the war ???

 

[CricketCartoons]

Sino-Indian War ring a bell?

But no China is a good neighbour when it comes to this thread. I always read China was/is a threat to India. So much so India's militarily and economic growth aspires to China's achievements.

Yes, there was a war. Despite that has a single bullet been fired from either side when there is no war. Unlike what we see on indo pak border. Great if India tries to match China's achievements, but China is not our problem. Pakistan is. The worst neighbour one can ask for. Or do you dispute it, and you think Pakistan is a good neighbour to India?

 

[R3verse Swing]

It is the fastest growing MAJOR economy in the world as defined by all economies who's nominal GDP is 1 trillion per annum or more.

Now you are saying major economy. Make your mind up. Still there is no clear winner between China or India when it comes to fastest *major* growing economy.

News to me. I live in a city dominated by the Chinese and most immigrants are working class people who bring over their moms and dads after they get a job here.

And I guess the difference between India and China is, while Chinese wealthy class wants to leave, hardly any wealthy Indian wants to leave India.

Its because India has far better human rights and property rights track record than China, so the ones who are rich, don't have to worry about the state seizing their assets on a whim in India, like they do in China.

6000 Indian Millionaires leave India in 2016: http://www.livemint.com/Money/cge9F...naires-moved-abroad-in-2016-New-World-We.html

 

[TikkiTaka]

[MENTION=143966]TikkiTaka[/MENTION], what happened to answering the fact that Pakistani army committed its genocide BEFORE the war ???

That's cause it wasn't the case. There were rebel attacks and the Army responded. Not too dissimilar to the Tamil Rebels in Sri Lanka. The whole genocide is cooked up to make the Pak Army look bad. I have relatives who served on the army in DHaka who I've heard stories from about the atrocities against Biharis for example. IIf there was genocide it was on both sides.

 

[Traveller55]

Now you are saying major economy. Make your mind up. Still there is no clear winner between China or India when it comes to fastest *major* growing economy.

You need to read better, as I have never said India is the fastest growing economy, but always said India is the fastest growing MAJOR economy.

And yes, the rate of growth in India is greater than rate of growth in China and has been for the last 4-5 years. Fastest growing simply means the fastest rate of growth.

 

[TikkiTaka]

Now you are saying major economy. Make your mind up. Still there is no clear winner between China or India when it comes to fastest *major* growing economy.






6000 Indian Millionaires leave India in 2016: http://www.livemint.com/Money/cge9F...naires-moved-abroad-in-2016-New-World-We.html

Fact is that India despite all it's growth is a pretty terrible third world country. Indians just don't want to accept that and like to think their some superpower compared to Pakistan.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Yes, there was a war. Despite that has a single bullet been fired from either side when there is no war. Unlike what we see on indo pak border. Great if India tries to match China's achievements, but China is not our problem. Pakistan is. The worst neighbour one can ask for. Or do you dispute it, and you think Pakistan is a good neighbour to India?

Yes I do dispute it. India didn't embark on a nuclear program because of Pakistan, as India felt China was the bigger threat.

You think India is a good neighbour with Pakistan? You have to be naive to think Pakistan/India are going to be great neighbours given the history, this isn't Neighbours in Adelaide you know.

 

[Traveller55]

Fact is that India despite all it's growth is a pretty terrible third world country. Indians just don't want to accept that and like to think their some superpower compared to Pakistan.

Um, they are a super-power COMPARED TO Pakistan.
1971 proved that India can crush Pakistan like a bug.
Thank goodness you guys have nukes to hide behind or else India would've caused a second,third, fourth and fifth partition of Pakistan.

 

[Traveller55]

That's cause it wasn't the case. There were rebel attacks and the Army responded. Not too dissimilar to the Tamil Rebels in Sri Lanka. The whole genocide is cooked up to make the Pak Army look bad. I have relatives who served on the army in DHaka who I've heard stories from about the atrocities against Biharis for example. IIf there was genocide it was on both sides.

False.

https://cas.uab.edu/humanrights/2017/04/21/bangladesh-forgotten-genocide/

As we can see from neutral expert sources :

1. Pakistan committed genocide on Bangladeshis BEFORE the war began (so comparison with Kashmir is valid, as there is no war in Kashmir)

2. The genocide is real and accepted by ALL neutral parties.

3. Your relatives have a self-interest in telling such stories. Its called 'not looking so bad in comparison'.

So like I said, when compared to Kashmir's insurgency, Indian military are angels compared to Pakistan's military dealing with a near-identical situation.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Um, they are a super-power COMPARED TO Pakistan.
1971 proved that India can crush Pakistan like a bug.
Thank goodness you guys have nukes to hide behind or else India would've caused a second,third, fourth and fifth partition of Pakistan.

So why didn't India crush Pakistan between 1971 and late 90s? What was India waiting for? An economic boom?

In fact why didn't India finish the job in 1971?

 

[Traveller55]

So why didn't India crush Pakistan between 1971 and late 90s? What was India waiting for? An economic boom?

Because India, unlike Pakistan, is a responsible power not interested in conquest. If they were, they'd have held on to the land they conquered from Pakistan in 1971.

The greatness of India is proven by the fact that despite the NW parts of Rangpur district being home to 30-35% Hindu Bengalis, India did not request, nevermind demand, even a sliver of land to bolster their most vulnerable strategic point- the Chicken's neck, which borders Rangpur.

I don't expect an aggressive, conquest-minded power to understand why a much greater power isn't itching to conquer land when it can.

 

[TikkiTaka]

False.

https://cas.uab.edu/humanrights/2017/04/21/bangladesh-forgotten-genocide/

As we can see from neutral expert sources :

1. Pakistan committed genocide on Bangladeshis BEFORE the war began (so comparison with Kashmir is valid, as there is no war in Kashmir)

2. The genocide is real and accepted by ALL neutral parties.

3. Your relatives have a self-interest in telling such stories. Its called 'not looking so bad in comparison'.

So like I said, when compared to Kashmir's insurgency, Indian military are angels compared to Pakistan's military dealing with a near-identical situation.

The insurgency was the war. It started from the point the Mukti Bahini started attacking Pakistani officials. India like to convince itself that the war started only when they entered officials despite covertly fighting for years.

 

[Buffet]

India has the highest rate of emigration in the world..

India emigration rate - 2 out of 1000 ( 2007-2012 World bank data).

There are lots of countries with higher emigration rate than India.


In context of this thread in the same period,

Pakistan had 6 out of 1000

BD had 14 out of 1000


CIA fact book estimate puts Indian emigration rate at 0 for the 2017. I suspect othe south Asian countries will also converge near 0.


---------------------------------------

I saw many referring to 20% extra per capita income in India as compared to Pakistan or BD. That's not huge enough in my opinion. Not worth mentioning when all these countries are near bottom.

As far as perception goes, I don't see any difference in Pakistani origin or Indian origin person in US as long as you are comparing apple to apple. I meant you have to compare two similar background. No one gives any thought about it while treating people.

Now perception of India and Pakistan as country is surely at different level in US. Main reason was OBL getting caught in Pakistan and all the news in US is about terrorist this or terrorist that coming out of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Pakistan is often lumped with Afghanistan and that's really going to have some impact on reputation.

But average Joe is not going to treat you differently in US based on your country of origin. Now if you talking about airport checks etc then that's simply due to reputation of country and government is doing extra checks due to nationality simply based on threat perception. But it stops right there. Once you are in public, no one cares.

 

[Traveller55]

The insurgency was the war. It started from the point the Mukti Bahini started attacking Pakistani officials. India like to convince itself that the war started only when they entered officials despite covertly fighting for years.

If the Bengali insurgency is the war, then Kashmiri insurgency is India's war.
And in like-for-like situation, Indian military is 15-60 times more humane than Pakistani military.

Those are what the facts show us.

Again, I am not Indian. I am Bangladeshi. And I was alive and hiding from your genocidal faujis when they were genociding my people.

Also, there was no 'fighting for years'. Bangladesh was peaceful till Jan 1970. We got our independence in 1971, thanks to the Indians.

I've already provided sources for you to educate yourself on, since I've already proven that Pakistan committed genocide before the war started. Hence its not a war-crime but a genocide.

 

[Traveller55]

I guess it's just easy to be bitter cause Hindu kings lost all the wars they fought to superior Muslim armies. So it's only what the Muslims did that has been written in history.

The South didn't lose to muslims till 1550s. And we have more sources on Vijayanagara, thanks to the European travelers, than we do on the entire Khilji Empire for eg.

So show us, Hindu kings genociding muslims or other people for their religion.

If you can't, then the simple conclusion is, muslim rulers have been far more genocidal than Hindu rulers.

As I said, the battle of Talikota is the answer in a microcosm : while Muslim kings were busy killing hindus in their own country (precipitating the battle of Talikota) and muslim generals were betraying their masters due to religion, the Hindu empire was giving command to hindus and muslims alike.

 

[TikkiTaka]

The South didn't lose to muslims till 1550s. And we have more sources on Vijayanagara, thanks to the European travelers, than we do on the entire Khilji Empire for eg.

So show us, Hindu kings genociding muslims or other people for their religion.

If you can't, then the simple conclusion is, muslim rulers have been far more genocidal than Hindu rulers.

As I said, the battle of Talikota is the answer in a microcosm : while Muslim kings were busy killing hindus in their own country (precipitating the battle of Talikota) and muslim generals were betraying their masters due to religion, the Hindu empire was giving command to hindus and muslims alike.

Well if you want to talk about genocide think of what Ashoka did in Kalinga for example?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Back to topic - The reality is the Western perception of India is clear. It's all a front.

India will never be a superpower on the global stage. To be a superpower a nation needs all of the following:

1. Political clout - Non existent, well perhaps with Israel while Modi is in power.
2. Military clout - Hardly, failed to *crush* Pakistan when India had the chance to.
3. Economic clout - Yes ok, India is a growing economy, but it's people are not benefiting much.
4. Respect at the global stage - Not happening for love nor money. Especially when an animal has more rights in India than a human. Hardly anyone in the West respects Indians. They may appear to, but it's purely for the sake of money.

In before anyone compares with Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't aspire to be a superpower in any sense. So none of the above apply to Pakistan. Pakistanis do not boast like Indians do; do not suffer from the inferiority complex like Indians do (the world has moved on from the British Empire) - and the West can see this as clear as daylight.

Simply put, the perception of India from outside of India is pretty bleak, and when you read comments from Indians in this thread, it's no surprise why.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Yes I do dispute it. India didn't embark on a nuclear program because of Pakistan, as India felt China was the bigger threat.

You think India is a good neighbour with Pakistan? You have to be naive to think Pakistan/India are going to be great neighbours given the history, this isn't Neighbours in Adelaide you know.

China exports almost every thing that we Indians need. What does Pakistan export to us apart from their ghatiya mangoes, the worst mangoes I have ever tasted.

Exactly, india pakistan will never be good neighbours and the reason is Pakistan. Always insecure and jealous of us. always copying whatever we do. Did nuclear tests after we did. Won ODI world cup after we did. Won T20 WC after we did. Became test number 1 after we did. Won CT after we did. Won't be surprised if they win another WC because now we have two. Because Pakistan measures its success by comparing with India.

 

[Traveller55]

Well if you want to talk about genocide think of what Ashoka did in Kalinga for example?

Except Ashoka wasn't a hindu. He was an Ajivak who converted to Buddhism.

Proves my point that you have to go 2250 years ago to find some non-muslim Indian to commit genocide to counter half a dozen examples off the top of my head in the last 1000 years from Muslims.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Because India, unlike Pakistan, is a responsible power not interested in conquest. If they were, they'd have held on to the land they conquered from Pakistan in 1971.

The greatness of India is proven by the fact that despite the NW parts of Rangpur district being home to 30-35% Hindu Bengalis, India did not request, nevermind demand, even a sliver of land to bolster their most vulnerable strategic point- the Chicken's neck, which borders Rangpur.

I don't expect an aggressive, conquest-minded power to understand why a much greater power isn't itching to conquer land when it can.

Your response doesn't tally with your post:

Thank goodness you guys have nukes to hide behind or else India would've caused a second,third, fourth and fifth partition of Pakistan.

So are you saying that if Pakistan did not have nukes, then India would have partitioned Pakistan into multiple pieces? Sounds very familiar to the British philosophy of divide and conquer, oh wait, India is not interested in conquest.

Save the bravado. No one wants war, except people like you who have a chip on their shoulder.

 

[R3verse Swing]

China exports almost every thing that we Indians need. What does Pakistan export to us apart from their ghatiya mangoes, the worst mangoes I have ever tasted.

Exactly, india pakistan will never be good neighbours and the reason is Pakistan. Always insecure and jealous of us. always copying whatever we do. Did nuclear tests after we did. Won ODI world cup after we did. Won T20 WC after we did. Became test number 1 after we did. Won CT after we did. Won't be surprised if they win another WC because now we have two. Because Pakistan measures its success by comparing with India.

Why do you keep saying *we*? I thought you were from Bangladesh? Or have you just revealed your true identity here?

 

[Traveller55]

Your response doesn't tally with your post:



So are you saying that if Pakistan did not have nukes, then India would have partitioned Pakistan into multiple pieces? Sounds very familiar to the British philosophy of divide and conquer, oh wait, India is not interested in conquest.

Save the bravado. No one wants war, except people like you who have a chip on their shoulder.

Conquest does not equal partition.
India doesn't want to conquer land- especially not land filled with people who hate India. But I wouldn't fault them, given how many terror outfits Pakistan sponsors and throws at them, if they wanted to cause multiple 1971s to Pakistan.
Your nukes pretty much makes sure this won't happen anytime soon.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Exactly, india pakistan will never be good neighbours and the reason is Pakistan. Always insecure and jealous of us. always copying whatever we do. Did nuclear tests after we did. Won ODI world cup after we did. Won T20 WC after we did. Became test number 1 after we did. Won CT after we did. Won't be surprised if they win another WC because now we have two. Because Pakistan measures its success by comparing with India.

By the way, none of this matters, Pakistan first gained independence, then India. Top that!

 

[R3verse Swing]

Conquest does not equal partition.
India doesn't want to conquer land- especially not land filled with people who hate India. But I wouldn't fault them, given how many terror outfits Pakistan sponsors and throws at them, if they wanted to cause multiple 1971s to Pakistan.
Your nukes pretty much makes sure this won't happen anytime soon.

Hmm. Just find it strange. 3, or was it 4 attempts are conquering Kashmir? All failed.

 

[Traveller55]

Hmm. Just find it strange. 3, or was it 4 attempts are conquering Kashmir? All failed.

They didn't attempt to conquer Kashmir, since the sovereign of Kashmir exercised his sovereign right to join Kashmir to India.
If tomorrow Belgium joins Netherlands, Netherland isn't 'conquering it', no-matter how much it pisses off the French.

Last I checked, they control both the traditional capitals of Kashmir, hold the major portion of Kashmir (area and population-wise) and have the law on their side.

 

[CricketCartoons]

By the way, none of this matters, Pakistan first gained independence, then India. Top that!

You should update your knowledge about pakistan's history. Pakistan became legally independent on the 15th of August. You can check the address to the nation by Q-e-A.

 

[R3verse Swing]

You should update your knowledge about pakistan's history. Pakistan became legally independent on the 15th of August. You can check the address to the nation by Q-e-A.

If you insist.

By the way, Pakistan has simply proven to the world (and of course to India) that Pakistan can achieve what India does, at whim, when it feels like it, on what it feels like - be it Cricket Tournaments, Politics, or Military you name it - and this despite Pakistan's problems and perception in the world.

This is what you call strength and perseverance without the need to boast or show off. I know it upsets Indians because Pakistan's identical achievements to India simply destroys the sense of Indian superiority and this is the essence of the thread. No one really respects Indians in the rest of the world because Indians believe they are superior to everyone else in the world.

By the way, if you don’t like Pakistani mangoes, then stop importing them. Just saying!

 

[R3verse Swing]

India emigration rate - 2 out of 1000 ( 2007-2012 World bank data).

There are lots of countries with higher emigration rate than India.


In context of this thread in the same period,

Pakistan had 6 out of 1000

BD had 14 out of 1000

Well not sure of other countries, but in the UK there is a quota on how many Indians can migrate to the UK.

Theresa May says UK will not raise visa quota for Indian nationals - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-more-work-visas-to-indian-nationals-says-may

Plus a law was passed in the UK which mandated that all jobs must be advertised to UK nationals first, must prove a suitable candidate is not possible, and only then would Indian economic migrants be considered.

 

[Snak3eye5]

By the way, none of this matters, Pakistan first gained independence, then India. Top that!

Yet Pakistans constitution was formed in 1956 or something 9 years after the fact ? Was in a state of constant indecisiveness on what it’s main principles and fundamental rights should be. The story as we all know since then is why Pakistan is in the sorry state it’s in right now. Decades of Sharif’s and Bhuttos leadership who can’t even complete a term in office

 

[Snak3eye5]

China exports almost every thing that we Indians need. What does Pakistan export to us apart from their ghatiya mangoes, the worst mangoes I have ever tasted.

Exactly, india pakistan will never be good neighbours and the reason is Pakistan. Always insecure and jealous of us. always copying whatever we do. Did nuclear tests after we did. Won ODI world cup after we did. Won T20 WC after we did. Became test number 1 after we did. Won CT after we did. Won't be surprised if they win another WC because now we have two. Because Pakistan measures its success by comparing with India.

Not to go of on a tangent . But the mangoes from Pakistan are quite good. That’s where I draw the line. There’s nothing wrong with the mangoes. Not sure if you tasted a bad batch or something.

 

[saadibaba]

China exports almost every thing that we Indians need. What does Pakistan export to us apart from their ghatiya mangoes, the worst mangoes I have ever tasted.

Exactly, india pakistan will never be good neighbours and the reason is Pakistan. Always insecure and jealous of us. always copying whatever we do. Did nuclear tests after we did. Won ODI world cup after we did. Won T20 WC after we did. Became test number 1 after we did. Won CT after we did. Won't be surprised if they win another WC because now we have two. Because Pakistan measures its success by comparing with India.

Not sure what the true intentions are here but this is a genuinely clever and funny post.

 

[Musakhel]

Indians get bullied by Paks in uk, seen this many times.

 

[Chrish]

Indians get profiled at airport a lot as well. Discrimination is universal in America regardless of your national background as long as you "look" certain ways.

Trust me they don't care if you are Indian, Iranian or Arab.

 

[CricketCartoons]

If you insist.

By the way, Pakistan has simply proven to the world (and of course to India) that Pakistan can achieve what India does, at whim, when it feels like it, on what it feels like - be it Cricket Tournaments, Politics, or Military you name it - and this despite Pakistan's problems and perception in the world.

This is what you call strength and perseverance without the need to boast or show off. I know it upsets Indians because Pakistan's identical achievements to India simply destroys the sense of Indian superiority and this is the essence of the thread. No one really respects Indians in the rest of the world because Indians believe they are superior to everyone else in the world.

By the way, if you don’t like Pakistani mangoes, then stop importing them. Just saying!

If I had the power I would ban everything Pakistani

I bought the mangoes because I fell for the hype. Even the mangoes that pakistanis are so proud of are indian copycats. Chaunsa is a village in bihar, and the anwar ratol comes from a village named ratol in uttar pradesh.

Your Barelwi and Deobandis that you are so proud of are from nondescript villages in uttar pradesh. Respect for the pakistani wahabi ghairatmands who at least don't follow anything that originated in india, unlike those pakistanis who derive their identity from india.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Well there had been a covert campaign by Bengali Hindus to undermine the concept of Pakistan from the beginning. And conniving Indians took advantage. We had to fight back and yes mistakes might have been committed. But the numbers are highly exaggerrated. I'm bored of Bangladeshis harking back to that everytime. Genocide has happened on both sides.

Did India stopped Mujib ur Rehman, who had won a simple majority in Pakistani NA from becoming PM? In which democracy can a person with 81 seats can stop a person with 160 seats in a 300 seat NA from becoming PM?

Your army killed 100s of 1000s of bengali speakers and 10mn poured into India. Why didnt you keep your issues inside your own country?

Till this day India and esp states of Assam and Bengal are suffering because of the millions who entered India illegally in 1971 and never returned.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

Exactly, india pakistan will never be good neighbours and the reason is Pakistan. Always insecure and jealous of us. always copying whatever we do. Did nuclear tests after we did. Won ODI world cup after we did. Won T20 WC after we did. Became test number 1 after we did. Won CT after we did. Won't be surprised if they win another WC because now we have two. Because Pakistan measures its success by comparing with India.

So by that logic, pakistan should not try to win the WC in fear of being seen as trying to keep up with india?

 

[gani999]

Well not sure of other countries, but in the UK there is a quota on how many Indians can migrate to the UK.

Theresa May says UK will not raise visa quota for Indian nationals - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-more-work-visas-to-indian-nationals-says-may

Plus a law was passed in the UK which mandated that all jobs must be advertised to UK nationals first, must prove a suitable candidate is not possible, and only then would Indian economic migrants be considered.

That quota applies to ALL non-EU migrants, not just to Indians. It may be that Indians are affected more, as Indians constitute the largest group of non-EU migrants to the UK


It applies equally to Pakistanis as well, so please stop gloating.

 

[R3verse Swing]

That quota applies to ALL non-EU migrants, not just to Indians. It may be that Indians are affected more, as Indians constitute the largest group of non-EU migrants to the UK


It applies equally to Pakistanis as well, so please stop gloating.

Nope. Extenuating rules apply to Indian immigrants for the reason that India is one of the few *commonwealth* countries that does not recognise dual nationality.

 

[Snak3eye5]

Nope. Extenuating rules apply to Indian immigrants for the reason that India is one of the few *commonwealth* countries that does not recognise dual nationality.

Dude India does recognize dual citizenship. It’s called Oci and you can come and go as you please in and out of India with that.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Dude India does recognize dual citizenship. It’s called Oci and you can come and go as you please in and out of India with that.

Nope. Dual nationality is when a person has 2 passports. An Indian cannot be in possession of an Indian passport and a British passport. This is as per Indian constitution.

The OCI entitle oversea Indians to freely enter India, but an OCI holder doesn't have the same rights in India as an Indian living in India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

That quota applies to ALL non-EU migrants, not just to Indians. It may be that Indians are affected more, as Indians constitute the largest group of non-EU migrants to the UK


It applies equally to Pakistanis as well, so please stop gloating.

UK is rejecting visa applications by 1000s. Poor guy wants to gloat. Lol.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/trib...ng-pakistani-visa-applicants-in-droves/?amp=1

 

[cricketjoshila]

Dude India does recognize dual citizenship. It’s called Oci and you can come and go as you please in and out of India with that.

[MENTION=134230]gani999[/MENTION]
UK considers OCI as citizenship of another state. The same was stated in a reply to a query under freedom of information act.


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...ach/html/2/FOI 15956 Mr Ahmad re OCI.doc.html