Singham
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No comparison to be honest. Sachin is gonna play 200 test matches and imran didn't even played even half of 200.
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Would you swap Imran Khan for Sachin Tendulkar?
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Haroon786
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Does not change the fact that Imran would be selected in an alltime 11and use more respect next time, otherwise I know how to use your ideosyncratic terminology.
Buffet
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How do you figure that one way or another?
To put it in perspective, SRT averages 40 or above in every single country and Vs every single opposition. Has played better in alien conditions than most batsmen in history and has unprecedented number of centuries and runs at 50+ average.
On other hands, IK was an ATG all rounder and ATG bowler. I rate IK as the best bowler from Pakistan. He had one of the best peak among all fast bowlers.
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Well, he failed to make it to Cricinfo's World XI, while Sachin made it. Enjoy that fact.
Haroon786
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Bradman played a quarter of the matches as Tendu. Anyway name me one fast biwler who has played more than 120 test matches ?
Your answer will prove that longevity does not equal to greatness.
Buffet
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Who was in panel? Also, All time World XI doesn't select the best 11 cricketers. Goal is to pick the best team and 11 players are not necessarily the best 11 cricketers. It surely tells something but I won't use that as huge example of how cricketers are rated against each other.
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NO NEVER... and for godsake stop making these threads. Its insults to our heroes.
Imran Khan not only was on of greatest captain and allrouder he won many matches single handed for Pakistan. In most matches Tendulkar scored big socre India lost that match thats why Imran Khan said Inzi was winning player and thats why he is better than Tendulkar.
Also Imran Khan have Pakistan some of great player Pakistan will ever see as Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Aqib Javed, Qadir, Inzi etc etc.
SO I GET HURT BY READING THIS POSTS.
Imran Khan not only was on of greatest captain and allrouder he won many matches single handed for Pakistan. In most matches Tendulkar scored big socre India lost that match thats why Imran Khan said Inzi was winning player and thats why he is better than Tendulkar.
Also Imran Khan have Pakistan some of great player Pakistan will ever see as Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Aqib Javed, Qadir, Inzi etc etc.
SO I GET HURT BY READING THIS POSTS.
Haroon786
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Imran could play a big impact in 3 ways, whereas Sachin at best would be a beast with the bat and an occasionally decent spinner. Also in the sense that Imran averaged below 25 for all countries bowling bar
one, which is India, he played mostly in Asia which was as batsmen friendly then as it is now, so it just underlines his greatness, more over he averaged 38 with the bat, which is outstanding considering the quality of bowlers at the time.
Haroon786
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Welcome to PakPassion.
amax
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Imran was a fast bowler.
Buffet
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IK was wrong about Inzzi in many ways. You are wrong about SRT here as well. SRT scored 51 test centuries and India lost only 11 of them. He has 49 ODI centuries and India has lost only 14 of them. Clearly, India didn't lose majority of matches when he scored big. On top of that, this argument of crediting team performance to individual performance is wrong in many accounts.
That's pretty much expected reaction by most fans and that's why I said it's an unfair question. It's not only about their performance and standing in world cricket. It's lot more than that. On top of that, both are high up there.
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akheR
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Kallis has a chance to score more Test runs and centuries till his retirement, in less Test matches.
What does that mean then ?
As comparing a fast bowler's career to a batsman's isn't clever. The only fast bowlers who have played +100 Test matches and averaged -25 are all who didn't rely on their pace and were line & length seam bowlers, like McGrath and Pollock or Wasim Akram (who after losing pace still had the bowling skills to carry on a career respectably.)
These are OPINIONS, unless they're all PhDs in cricketing expertise, it remains SUBJECTIVE, and Immy comes ONE rank under SRT, that's not a dramatic difference. In fact, Holding/McGrath languishing at the 40/41 positions is probably more interesting.
Haroon786
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^ SRT is not a better cricketer than IK, batsman yes but no more than that.
Buffet
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IK wasn't contributing with bat and ball in the same phase of his career and impact by his batting was a limited one. SRT adjusted better away from home but then argument can be made for IK facing biased umpires when playing away.
Anyway, due to IK being all rounder and captain is the reasons we are comparing them. Personally, I haven't seen very convincing arguments one way or another.
Haroon786
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Kallis has a higher avg than Tendu, does that make him a better batsman ?
Haroon786
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IK averaged 50 with the bat and under 20 with the ball in his last ten years, this must make him the greatest cricketer in history
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Haroon786
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A more relevant comparison is that would you trade Kallis for Tendu ?
Buffet
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I will expect McGrath to be ranked lot higher if same panel does a survey now. He was still playing back then and had many great years left.
Also , fast bowlers are not expected to play 150 test matches. That's very difficult and probably not even possible. It's easier for batsman to play more cricket. Not taking anything away from SRT but IK has big enough sample size so this point is not convincing.
Haroon786
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Tendulkar was a brilliant bat, not trying to underminr him here.
yawn. He doesn't even have 4000 runs in test cricket, and you calling him the greatest ever. Taking average as one of the criterias is fine but not when as a captain the person has scored only 2400 runs. One of the most overrated cricketer on this forum tbh. He was an out and out draw specialist, and had not been for WC victory, Pakistan would have forgotten him by now. What he achieved as a captain/leader at 41, Kapil Dev achieved at 25.
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Buffet
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SRT is not rated due to records. He had no records but he was rated as an ATG half way in his career. In my opinion , Kallis is not far behind SRT even though some Eng/Aus posters disagree time to time for various reasons.
It doesn't. Two reasons,
1 - You always take whole career to judge a player and can't use cherry picked period to make a case of greatest cricketer.
2 - He was not even contributing with bat and ball in a big way in same phase of his career. This 50 average flatters him because he has less than 4K runs in his entire career and entire career matters when making a case of greatest cricketer.
There is no strong argument to support that he 'must' be the best cricketer. He is up there for sure.
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Monsee
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Yep, replace a True Lion with a Choker Unlimited...makes perfect sense!
While we are at it, let's swap Kapil for Wasim and Shoaib combined as well...whatever rocks the boat for you and our Indian buddies
While we are at it, let's swap Kapil for Wasim and Shoaib combined as well...whatever rocks the boat for you and our Indian buddies
WebGuru
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Your name is being called in this thread bro
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=187605&page=4
Haroon786
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Ok I did exaggerate, but hell no is he overated, Kallis has higher avg than SRT but that doesn't mke him overated, hence IK has no comparison. Don't compare Kaps with IK, he isn't anywhere near the pedigree of Immy.
Choker scored more runs in WON international matches than any Pakistani ever scored overall. Can't find a better stat than that.
True lion and all is total gas. True Lion won 3 matches outside subcontinent as a captain, won a fluke world cup and really that's about it. He was so insecured that he himself has admitted that he used to give strict instructions to his teammates to not to get out to Kapil. I am sure lions are far more secured than worrying about others stats.
Monsee
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Your name is being called in this thread bro
Done!
Dude, they have similar number of runs as well. Both have around 15K test runs, so if someone rates Kallis over SRT then its totally understandeable. However, if tomorrow someone says Samaraweera has higher average than Dravid, and so Sama is a better cricketer, then that would be a joke. You can compare averages for players with similar stats, not for someone who has just scored 4000 runs in test cricket. All of Imran's test al round contemporaries in in 80s, had more runs than him. Its just that in the last 2-3 years, PPers have digged out this 50+ batting stat of imran and tried to make him look like Gary Sobers or Kallis.
Regarding Kapil Dev, well his pedigree is what set the leadership bar in Asia. Winning a world cup at 25 was good enough to put him in a seperate league forever. Plus Kapil was never an insecured sole. He never asked his teammates to not get out to Imran. He was a true Punjabi jatt - he came, he saw and he conquered.
WebGuru
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He was the only captain who drawn a series against mighty WI in WI there was no other team who was even able to draw a series against West Indies in WI for 20 years when WI was at top.
His stats in that series:
mastermind_quad
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I will never swap Sachin with anybody not even for Bradman and Sober forget about Imran Khan.
He was the only captain who drawn a series against mighty WI in WI there was no other team who was even able to draw a series against West Indies in WI for 20 years when WI was a top.
And don't forget to check his stats in that series:
Listen m not saying that Imran was not a great player, m saying he was not as great as he is being made out to be on this forum. Of course Imran Khan was a great player and a legend, but to say that he was greater all rounder than Sobers or Kallis is a joke.
Regarding the WI series, i think an entire thread was dedicated to this series, where it was clearly presented that pakistan won 1 match in this series, and in that match Richards and Marshall didn't play, Lloyd had retired before that series, and the bowling attack in that match consisted of 4 bowlers who didn't even have a total of 75 wickets between them till that match, or in other words it was a totally rookie bowling attack with 3 bowlers had a total combined experience of 10 or 11 matches between them.
akheR
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Who on earth is comparing Imran Khan vs SRT as specialist BATSMEN ? We compare them as CRICKETERS, and Imran Khan was a BOWLING all rounder (you can't expect him to score 10,000 runs @ 50, right) - and an ATG all rounder > ATG batsman, there's no two ways.
Wasn't even a Jatt anyway, but he fielded, he trundled and slogged, that's why he averaged in the low 30s with his batting and nearly 30 with the ball in Test cricket.
No one cares about ODIs, otherwise,
> 
, they have the same batting average and bowling SR after all, apart form the fact that Kapil Dev did not even score 4000 runs.
Buffet
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Not true otherwise every single ATG all rounder will be rated higher than every single ATG batsman.
Who on earth is comparing Imran Khan vs SRT as specialist BATSMEN ? We compare them as CRICKETERS, and Imran Khan was a BOWLING all rounder (you can't expect him to score 10,000 runs @ 50, right) - and an ATG all rounder > ATG batsman, there's no two ways.
Wasn't even a Jatt anyway, but he fielded, he trundled and slogged, that's why he averaged in the low 30s with his batting and nearly 30 with the ball in Test cricket.
No one cares about ODIs, otherwise,
Not sure, if you have even read the context of discussion of Imran's stat. At no point, it was compared to SRT, instead it was discussed on a stand alone basis that someone who doesn't even have 4000 runs in test cricket, can even be talked about as the greatest all rounder.
Well, he may have trundled or slogged, but whatever he did was good enough for india to win a WC defeating WI twice in the tournament and Kapil paaji became the world cup winning captain at 25. I wish Imran also thought like you about Kapil and hence shown a bigger heart and didn't act so insecured by asking his teammates to not get out to Kapil. But then apart from PPs, no one ever thought Imran was a lion. Deeds speak louder than words, true for Kapil, true for Imran.
WebGuru
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Why it's not debatable? I have seen people even debating to prove Sachin better thn Bradman. I think it's an open forum for debate if there is no debate thn why thread like these exist? why A v B threads?
Many other teams toured WI after 1988 drawn series of Pakistan but there wasn't a single team who won/drawn a series against WI in WI out of 6 series they played after 1988 till 1995.
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Haroon786
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What are you on about, IK had still average of 38, he had an astounding bowling avg for a SC bowler, the best from a SC pacester i think, as for Kapil's leadership, when has winning the World cup become the pinnscle of cricket, Tests are still prime importance, there Imran was better and moreover he identified several of Pakistan's legends who went on to become greats. As for the not getting out to Kapil saga where did you invent this? He was a true Pakistani Pathan who towered above all else then, now and ever.
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Haroon786
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Tendulkar is being overated here, I wouls have Kallis an equally good bat, someone who can bowl and a brilliant fielder.
akheR
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Immy was a BOWLING all rounder, the two others BATTING all rounders, they have DIFFERENT roles, that's not like comparing right handed and left handed batsmen.
To begin with, a batting all rounder will have a longer and more stable career, and also will have more wickets than a bowling all rounder will have runs - for a batting all rounder, he needs 2/3 wickets without being used as a front line bowler (he'll keep a low average even if the SR will be high), but for a BOWLING all rounder (like Imran) to make his figures look good he'll put a lot of hard work, as getting 40-50 runs/innings is harder than getting 2-3 wickets/innings.
A batting all rounder will probably also play a lot more matches. If he plays 126 innings (like Imran Khan), and just take 2 wickets per innings (with of course one random 5fer here and there) as average, just do the maths, and you'll see how career wickets he'll take, even if the average/SR will be high.
That's why people put him in the "3000 runs/300 wickets" club, as 3000 runs for a bowling all rounder was the minimum, not 4000, to be judged.
But Sobers > Imran, even then being the second best all rounder put you automatically as one of the best cricketers ever.
Give the names of the bowlers who were on their home pitches, one of them was probably better than all "fast" bowlers the nation of India has produced put together.
Because you probably know that WI, for that matter and contrarily to some enthusiasts, did have a genuine fast bowling bench strength who, in their own backyard, were better than pace batteries from a lot of the ROW.
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mastermind_quad
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Lolz .....every single player mentioned in this thread are very overrated ...infact very very overrated....
silent ischemia
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You know imran's best odi bowling figures? Who won the game?
silent ischemia
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Wow, your last sentence makes me proud of being a pathan.
silent ischemia
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The only aspect that Imran had superior to SRT was his captaincy skills. Otherwise SRT was better
I would not even swap Bradman for Imran Khan. He did a lot more for Pakistan and his leadership qualities along with his cricketing ability was in my opinion matched by only Clive Lloyd considering how both dealt with with leading some seriously indisciplined sides into world champions
Haroon786
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Lolz .....every single player mentioned in this thread are very overrated ...infact very very overrated....
Admittedly he has maintained this for a long time, however he gets praised far greater than anyone else, that in my view is why Tendulkar is overrated.
Haroon786
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Thanks, didn't think the post was that good.
Its ironic that the same people who were ridiculing Gavaskar for inflating his average against the West Indies, facing Packer era depleted WI bowling, are defending IK for winning against a second string WI test side with two of their greatest players missing from their side.
Anyway, i rate IK the best all rounder of all time in tests, bar none. Sobers and Kallis come next. In ODI's, there have been quite a few who have been better than IK. While i rate Sachin as the best batsman to have ever played the game across both formats , along with Viv Richards, Lara and Greg Chappell. I'm quite unsure about Sobers as i'm kind of suspect of the quality of bowling he faced, as the SR of bowlers during his era was quite high as compared to the bowlers of 80's,90's.
Sachin and IK are both the best players to come from the SC, and i would have them both in my world XI.
Anyway, i rate IK the best all rounder of all time in tests, bar none. Sobers and Kallis come next. In ODI's, there have been quite a few who have been better than IK. While i rate Sachin as the best batsman to have ever played the game across both formats , along with Viv Richards, Lara and Greg Chappell. I'm quite unsure about Sobers as i'm kind of suspect of the quality of bowling he faced, as the SR of bowlers during his era was quite high as compared to the bowlers of 80's,90's.
Sachin and IK are both the best players to come from the SC, and i would have them both in my world XI.
WebGuru
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Well i am not sure who did it? At least i was not there
As i mentioned above even after their stars lost the shine and they got new players and some old retired they still won 6 consecutive test series at home between 1988-1995 after that drawn series against Pakistan.
+1
PakGirl!
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Sachin was a legend in his own right but I just won't swap IK for anyone!
Haroon786
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IK is the Messi of the cricket world.
Haroon786
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Why were WI still unbeatable when IK played no one else bwat them in a seeries but they sure lost against them.
Haroon786
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WebGuru
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Not talking about you bro
Oh ok i thought because i was talking about that stat.
cricketAXEpert
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Tendulkar will be wasted in a Pakistani set up, Tendulkar is all about stats, Pakistanis don't look at stats they look for 'boom boom' Younus Khan has great stats if he was an Indian, India would have made him a great star like Dravid he would scored more than 12000 runs by now because India plays more cricket and that on flatest of wickets. Imran Khan Did more for his team than any other person did. Not only he was a great fast bowler, captain & batsman, he also Trained Wasim and Waqar. so No Imran Khan means no Wasim and Waqar either. And Pakistan would waste Tendulkar's talent anyways. So NO!! & Never
amax
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Only ATG bowler, who can be categorized as genuine fast, and has played more than 100 tests is wasim bhai. This has more to do with limitations of human body.
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kinventor
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Kapil father was from Pakistan and low caste tharkan, welcome to punjab where anyone doing something usefull is considered low caste
kinventor
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lol
Being ATG bowler isnt enough i guess or having 37 batting average in great bowling era. And when you combine that with being best captain from subcontinent then its clear he was better then Tendu.
Also Imran Khan left Pakistan cricket with 2 ATG fast bowlers which he personally found from all over Pakistan. While tendu legacy will be his records and nothing more.
Singham
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Fast bowler for 3 or 4 years in his career. Medium pace rest of his career.
Singham
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I thought he was an all-rounder. Look at kallis.
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Glenn McGrath
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Tendulkar is the Maradona of Cricket : The God.
eradicator
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Imran Khan best Captain ever with a grand total of 1 Test Series win outside the SC.
And for the WC that he earned massive fame, Kapil Paji achieved that fame at an age of 24 when teams around the World were submissive to the West Indies.
And for the WC that he earned massive fame, Kapil Paji achieved that fame at an age of 24 when teams around the World were submissive to the West Indies.
Bilal7
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How many did Bradman play? Longevity does not factor in this discussion since Imran's job was much more taxing on the body than Sachin's. Bowler, batsman and captain/selector.
Because that is an opinion. Another opinion to consider is Imran Khan's own which states that Inzi was a better match-winner than Tenda.
For 10 years he had a 50+ batting average and a bowling average of under 20 and you're saying he didn't contribute with both aspects at the same time. Lol.
So Sachin was a better bowler, eh? Looks like some of the Indians are beginning to lose it.
Imrab was an ATG bowler, ATG captain and good batsman. Sachin was an ATG batsman, pathetic captain, pathetic bowler.
Bilal7
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Yeah, I look at his Gul-esque bowling average and laugh.
Kallis is a batting all-rounder.
Buffet
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Great work of thinking it through! Break it by series by series over his whole career and you will get your answer and probably a huge shock.
Buffet
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Bilal7
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The stat that I posted is good enough to convince me that he has contributed with the bat and ball together for an extended period of time.
You are free to spend your free time going to all lengths to discredit Imran, however.
Statistics375
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It is general common sense, an ATG allrounder will always be more considered more valuable then an ATG batsmane, especially when the Allrounder can be considered an ATG based on his bowling feats alone.
Square Drive
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Never - not even if my life depended on it! Imran was in a class of his own. One can only dream to have such an all-rounder in the side. A quality bowler who was better than all of India's pacers combined to go with a batsman who can match the quality of someone like Yuvraj Singh would have the edge over Tendulkar, me thinks. Plus, he's probably the best leader (captain) that was ever to be!
Buffet
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His bowling or batting was nothing great for the first 9 years. Then he was a truly great contributor as a bowler for 7-8 years and decent contributor with bat. Last 5-6 years, he was hardly contributing with ball but he was a great contributor with his bat. [ hint: Before some one jumps with average figures. Check runs and wickets contributed by him in each test]
You can actually break your cherry-picked 10 year period and see the same trend. He was not a great contributor with bat and ball in same period. Out of 4 all rounders, only Botham was a great contributor with bat and ball both at the same time. He did it in his first half of his career and then faded away.
About discrediting, huh. There is hardly anything to discredit guys like IK, SRT etc but both seems to be more rated than they should be in this forum by two different set of fans.
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Singham
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Still 88 test matches were not enough to compare him with sachin. Sachin played 450 plus odi matches and 200 test matches and he is par with bradman. Imran was was a fast bowler for 3 or 4 years and he was just medium pace after that. Even kapil played 130 plus test matches. He was a bowling all-rounder as well. Bradman played in 1930s and 40s. Hence he played less matches. But imran's career was cut short due to injuries and played not even half matches compared to sachin. Bradman's career wasn't cut short due to injuries. Not even bradman could have play as many test matches and one day matches as sachin.
Bilal7
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So what does playing 1000000 international matches prove about Sachin except that he was blessed with not being hit by injuries like Imran, who lost a number of his cricketing years right in the middle of his peak due to them. Proves nothing about quality or skill.
Singham
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The fact is sachin started playing from 16 and he was able to play 24 years and still say at the top speaks volumes about his quality. No other cricketer even in future can do what sachin has done for world cricket. You can't say the same about imran though. Imran like cricketers are once in a 25 years but sachin like cricketers are once in a 100 years. I don't think we would be able to see another sachin for another 100 years. I was listening to a selector who picked sachin for India . He said they would have picked at 15, but they were scared that sachin would not be able stay away from his mom and dad and get home sick. He was that good. No cricketer in the world can get that sort of admiration.
Haroon786
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Fast Bowler ?
Haroon786
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About Imran being medium for most of his career, that is false, he was a fast bowler when he reinvented himself for a couple of seasons of county cricket before that 1976 tour of Australia, where his international career took off, then til 1988 he was fast bowler, he even clocked 90 odd mph in the 1987 world cup, however after '88, he was nothing more than a trundler like Kapil.
Kallis is a batting allrounder and a mediocre bowler at best, Imran was a genuiiine fast bowling allrounder, otherwise, if he was a trundler like Kapil, he too would've played 130 tests with average stats.
Messi is better than Maradona anyway.
amax
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That list is good and it might be sufficiently objective, but do you think that sachin's greatness among other greats can be objectively decided considering that he enjoyed a status,nearly worshiped, by such a big fan base . No other cricketer can produce such massive/hardcore fan following(it is not their fault), this is more a cultural thing. Do you think such large hardcore fan following/status in his country will allow a sufficient objective analysis of his legacy. When you watch videos for that list it just starts with "God like status in homeland or something along the lines...". Sachin is highly praised cricketer, no doubt about it, but there is another side to this; any cricket expert/ex cricketer when visits India mostly question regarding sachin is the first question on his press outing, with half of the "desired" answer in the question like " Sachin is the greatest cricketer ever what are your views on him??" etc, so that expert has no other option left. I am not devaluing his massive achievements, he is one of the greatest legends of the game, this is just a question and it is valid considering the unprecedented status of particular sportsman in his homeland.
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Noobosauras
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Quite true, but then we have seen similar opinions even when discussed amongst neutrals outside India. I think the reason for that is the status he has both in India and Australia. Even in England he has been outstanding. This unfortunately forms the bulk of cricketing media opinion.
If perhaps a panel from S Africa, Pak, Nz discuss him at a neutral venue we would see something different being discussed.
Romali_rotti
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Yeap this thread is getting ugly... However like one of the poster mentioned before, it would solve all problems, Pakistan's batting issue would be resolved forever with SRT, India's search for a genuine fast bowler would be resolved with Imran. While Pakistan has the bowling to compliment SRT, India would have the batting to compliment Imran...
London_Lahori
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No, I would swap him for all our batsman except Miandad.
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