Younis Khan versus VVS Laxman

[HappyWarsFan]

Younis is way better and it's not even close.

 

[Slog]

The comparison is legit, its based on who Younis faced in his career.

We can take A\mbrose and Walsh out as Younis may not have faced those bowlers, I set the criteria same as VVS hence I put the WI bowlers.

You are now talking about a 'wouldve, shouldve, couldve' now there is a place for this if Younis had an injury plagued time period, however that is not the case for Younis.

One good example is Mohammad Yousuf, when he had the record breaking year, he was at his peak, he scored heavily in Pakistan and Eng and in some other Asian countries, but the minute he toured SA, his avg was like 35 in that series ?. So you get the picture here, numbers always speak for themselves...

its not 'couldve, shoulve, wouldve.' Its cherry picking of stats because for one batsman (VVS) you are picking bowlers from an era in which he had the most productive output of his career and for the other (YK) you are picking an era when his peak hadnt started

also. Gillespie isnt really considered an ATG at the level of the other bowlers you have mentioned. And interestingly once you take him out, VVS' average drops to the 30s.

But as you say numbers arent everything you gotta go into the details and it applies both ways.

 

[Romali_rotti]

its not 'couldve, shoulve, wouldve.' Its cherry picking of stats because for one batsman (VVS) you are picking bowlers from an era in which he had the most productive output of his career and for the other (YK) you are picking an era when his peak hadnt started

You are repeating yourself again, I read your post the first time. You conveniently ignored the Mohd Yousuf example I gave. A peak does not mean a batsmen will score high against top oppositions with great bowlers.

also. Gillespie isnt really considered an ATG at the level of the other bowlers you have mentioned. And interestingly once you take him out, VVS' average drops to the 30s.

Gillespie is not an ATG, I do recall saying comparison was against 'ATG to good bowlers'.. Also VVS's avg drops to 39 without Gillespie, which is still decent, much better than Younis.

But as you say numbers arent everything you gotta go into the details and it applies both ways.

I did apply it both ways, I compared same bowlers that both batsmen have faced and showed the result. It is you that came up with the 'but' but' 'what ifs'

..

 

[Ab Fan]

I will say Younis here but VVS was much greater player than his stats, one of the greatest pressure player of all-time. Like Peter May, statistics don't do justice to his test achievements.

VVS also stood up against the greatest Australian team like no one could. I will pick him as a test batter over Mohammad Yousuf but here Younis wins because Khan was himself a wonderful pressure player and a lot more prolific than Laxman.

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

Younis is a much better player overall but in really crunch situations when matches are on the line, I will dial VVS.. he had some special liking to those situations somehow

 

[Bhaijaan]

It is weird because a lot of Pakistani fans rate Younis as their greatest ever test batsman or Top 3 while most Indians probably won't put Laxman in their Top 10.

For Younis, a #1 contender in Pakistan to lose tk a guy who probably won't make India's Top 19 ever is a thought that should and that must concern a Pakistani fan and that is why you would never have the Pakistanis concede these.

It's weird.

It's very weird.

In all honesty, this is actually good comparison, Laxman, who is not among India's Top10 is probably equal or better than Younis.

My point is this, and it is that Younis is not Pakistan's Top5 batsmen ever.

Haneef, Miandad, Inzamam were clearly better.

Anwar, Abbass had more impact

Yousuf at his best was a level above.

There's Salim Malik in there. There is also Majid Khan.

I think this is only a bother for those who want to ca Younis the best in Pakistan or a Top 3. Other Pakistanis will be more open to debate this

 

[Bhaijaan]

This is the problem with comparisons.

This is the same reason why Indians in mid 2000s would not concede to Dravid being better than Sachin because that relegates Tendulkar, a direct competitor to Lara, Ponting (at that time)

You cannot concede to Dravid being better than Sachin when Dravid is no match to Lara/Ponting in separate discussions.

Of course bh end of 2000s Lara had retired and Dravid, Ponting had huge dips in form and lost their impact value while Tendulkar had a legendary Mohammad Ali, Rod Leveredwue resurrection to the top, to end all such debates.

 

[Zaz]

This shouldnt even be up for discussion A more apt comparison is younis khan and dravid

 

[NishanKonar]

VVS does not have the stats but if you are going to play Australia ( with McGrath & Warne ) or chase difficult score in 4th innings on 4th / 5th day pitch - guess whom you choose

 

[Zaz]

chase difficult score in 4th innings on 4th / 5th day pitch - guess whom you choose

I believe younis has one of the highest 4 inngs avges 50 and 5 tons so yes it would be younis

 

[big_gamer007]

This will be the most closest comparison ever made on PP. Both are so close its very difficult to chose who is better.

Effectiveness wise I think both are equal, I will choose VVS just because of his artisary.

 

[sshakir411]

People talking about Laxman being a pretty batsman? He was okay. No foot work and looked ugly as hell when not in form. Out of the Indian batsmen the best on the eye was Dravid. Hands down.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

This will be the most closest comparison ever made on PP. Both are so close its very difficult to chose who is better.

Effectiveness wise I think both are equal, I will choose VVS just because of his artisary.

Deluded Indian spotted! Younis Khan played a bit less tests, has TWICE the amount of centuries, and averages 52 vs. Laxmans 46. (A huge gap). This comparison is not close and it's an insult to Younis to compare him to someone like Laxman.

Laxman was just a good player but younis is a legend.

 

[NishanKonar]

This thread will never have a conclusion between Pak & Indian fand

Younis was very good servant for Pakistan cricket & had great stats. But its nearly impossible to explain VVS Laxman's place in Indian cricket legacy

VVS' 281 is part of cricket folklore. Its one pf the most iconic parts of Indian cricket legacy. On top of that his consistently good performances against Australia - the most dominant team of the era. Not to forget his terrific innings under tough situations. In 2010 alone he played 2 epic 4th innings knocks against Sri Lanka & Australia to fashion memorable innings ( think of Inzamam's innings against Bangladesh - but against team like Australia batting with tailenders much like Brian Lara innings at Bridgetown ). To cap it off ended the year with another epic performance in Durban on green seaming track against rampant Dale Steyn where his 2 scores of 96 & 37 were 2 highest scores in whole test

Not to mention he did all that with such elegance & artistry. Never seemed to hit the ball as much as caressing it thru the gaps in field with such languid ease

VVS was pretty much the right handed David Gower of his era

 

[Ab Fan]

This thread will never have a conclusion between Pak & Indian fand

Younis was very good servant for Pakistan cricket & had great stats. But its nearly impossible to explain VVS Laxman's place in Indian cricket legacy

VVS' 281 is part of cricket folklore. Its one pf the most iconic parts of Indian cricket legacy. On top of that his consistently good performances against Australia - the most dominant team of the era. Not to forget his terrific innings under tough situations. In 2010 alone he played 2 epic 4th innings knocks against Sri Lanka & Australia to fashion memorable innings ( think of Inzamam's innings against Bangladesh - but against team like Australia batting with tailenders much like Brian Lara innings at Bridgetown ). To cap it off ended the year with another epic performance in Durban on green seaming track against rampant Dale Steyn where his 2 scores of 96 & 37 were 2 highest scores in whole test

Not to mention he did all that with such elegance & artistry. Never seemed to hit the ball as much as caressing it thru the gaps in field with such languid ease

VVS was pretty much the right handed David Gower of his era

Great post, very well summarized. VVS, the test batsmen, has an impact which goes way beyond statistics. Greg Chappell once said that the way VVS batted Warne in 2001 series is the greatest batting you would ever saw against leg spin.

 

[Godhelpma]

No comparison at all. Yunus is a much better player than VVS. More apt comparison would be either to compare Dravid with yunus or VVS with Saleem Malik.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Younis was better but the margin isn't as big as some posters think.

Younis khan was the batting leader of his team for nearly 7 years, an accumulator who had to do all the tough task, from preventing a collapse to taking his team to a big score everything depended on him.

VVS was a damage control expert, also for a good amount of innings his task was to beat up an already dead bowling attack.
Vvs never had to carry the batting lineup alone, he was the 4th best batsman in his team, that surely made his task much easier than khan.
Vvs belongs in the category of damien martyn, gower etc.
As far as VVS' away record is concerned, i think his away avg is slightly better than younis. He was an all conditions player, no doubt about it. Many times he suffered a lot due to batting with the tail, and his average could have been better if he played at no. 4.
So not a big gap between the two but still i would pick yoni.

 

[RickyG]

This will be the most closest comparison ever made on PP. Both are so close its very difficult to chose who is better.

Effectiveness wise I think both are equal, I will choose VVS just because of his artisary.

To think this is a close comparison you have to be suffering from delusion or must just awoken from a 15 year coma.

Not sure which it is in your case, but wish you a speedy recovery.

 

[RickyG]

This thread will never have a conclusion between Pak & Indian fand

Younis was very good servant for Pakistan cricket & had great stats. But its nearly impossible to explain VVS Laxman's place in Indian cricket legacy

VVS' 281 is part of cricket folklore. Its one pf the most iconic parts of Indian cricket legacy. On top of that his consistently good performances against Australia - the most dominant team of the era. Not to forget his terrific innings under tough situations. In 2010 alone he played 2 epic 4th innings knocks against Sri Lanka & Australia to fashion memorable innings ( think of Inzamam's innings against Bangladesh - but against team like Australia batting with tailenders much like Brian Lara innings at Bridgetown ). To cap it off ended the year with another epic performance in Durban on green seaming track against rampant Dale Steyn where his 2 scores of 96 & 37 were 2 highest scores in whole test

Not to mention he did all that with such elegance & artistry. Never seemed to hit the ball as much as caressing it thru the gaps in field with such languid ease

VVS was pretty much the right handed David Gower of his era

Laxman peaked with his 281 and continued to live off that one innings for a while.

Good batsman and easy on the eyes but nothing more. Kind of a poor mans Damien Martin.

Indians in general overate their cricketers so this is nothing new. That’s why they compare Kapil with Imran, Ganguly with Anwar, Pathan/Zaheer with Wasim or Tendulkar with Bradman.

Laxman was a round peg for a round hole in the Indian team at the time.

 

[RickyG]

Younis was better but the margin isn't as big as some posters think.

Younis khan was the batting leader of his team for nearly 7 years, an accumulator who had to do all the tough task, from preventing a collapse to taking his team to a big score everything depended on him.

VVS was a damage control expert, also for a good amount of innings his task was to beat up an already dead bowling attack.
Vvs never had to carry the batting lineup alone, he was the 4th best batsman in his team, that surely made his task much easier than khan.
Vvs belongs in the category of damien martyn, gower etc.
As far as VVS' away record is concerned, i think his away avg is slightly better than younis. He was an all conditions player, no doubt about it. Many times he suffered a lot due to batting with the tail, and his average could have been better if he played at no. 4.
So not a big gap between the two but still i would pick yoni.

Younis averaged 48.76 in 71 away tests.

Laxman averaged 42.49 in 77 away tests.

Younis scores 19 test hundreds in test matches won.

Laxman scores 7 hundreds in matches won.

Younis averaged 59.31 at home only got to play 19 matches at home.

Laxman averaged 51.60 in 57 matches at home.

If Younis had the luxuries Laxman had he would’ve averaged closer to 55-57.

There’s no dimension in which the two are comparable.

 

[Mueez]

It is crazy to see how underrated YK is as a Test bat.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Laxman peaked with his 281 and continued to live off that one innings for a while.

Good batsman and easy on the eyes but nothing more. Kind of a poor mans Damien Martin.

Indians in general overate their cricketers so this is nothing new. That’s why they compare Kapil with Imran, Ganguly with Anwar, Pathan/Zaheer with Wasim or Tendulkar with Bradman.

Laxman was a round peg for a round hole in the Indian team at the time.

if imran played for weak India of the 80s would he have been as effective?

You don't think kapil in the 80s Pakistani team would have dominated the test format with that side rofl?

tendulkar defecates on bradman. bradman is from the amateur era when cricket was far too much of an elitist 'white sport'.

 

[tyron_woodley]

lol at poor man's damien Martyn. martyn averaged a grand total of 1 percentage point higher than laxman in half the amount of tests he played. Majority being in australia.

Put laxman in a team that had mcgrath and warne and he would make Damien look like a scrub.

 

[tyron_woodley]

laxman at his absolute peak greater than khan but khan ahead of him due to longevity and the extent of his prime. These are facts.

 

[RickyG]

if imran played for weak India of the 80s would he have been as effective?

You don't think kapil in the 80s Pakistani team would have dominated the test format with that side rofl?

tendulkar defecates on bradman. bradman is from the amateur era when cricket was far too much of an elitist 'white sport'.

I think Imran would’ve transformed fast bowling in India like he did for Pakistan. There is no comparison between Imran Khan and Kapil Dev.

In fact, I’ll go as far to say that Kapil was lucky he played in India because it allowed him to get as many wickets as he did. Imran khan had to share wickets with Sarfraz, Qadir and Wasim for most of his career.

Kapil Dev would’ve been the 3rd choice fast bowler until 89 and the dropped for Waqar at that point.

But thank for proving my point about overrating your cricketers.

Granted Bradman was from a different era but he was so far ahead of his contemporaries that you have to accept that he is one of the greatest, just like Sobers, Steyn or Gilchrist regardless of eras.

Tendulkar had two cricketers from his era that were superior test batsmen in Ponting and Lara. So Tendulkar defecates on no one.

 

[RickyG]

laxman at his absolute peak greater than khan but khan ahead of him due to longevity and the extent of his prime. These are facts.

You calling them “facts” doesn’t make them facts Davinder Trump.

Learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.

You’re actually blatantly ignoring Martyn’s higher average while trying to pass off your opinion as a fact.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Laxman peaked with his 281 and continued to live off that one innings for a while.

Good batsman and easy on the eyes but nothing more. Kind of a poor mans Damien Martin.

Indians in general overate their cricketers so this is nothing new. That’s why they compare Kapil with Imran, Ganguly with Anwar, Pathan/Zaheer with Wasim or Tendulkar with Bradman.

Laxman was a round peg for a round hole in the Indian team at the time.

Kapil and Imran is a worthy comparison. However Imran is the better player no one would argue.

Ganguly & Anwar is again a worthy comparison > Both have similar stats as far as I know and both are classy left handers.

Pathan/Zaheer to Wasim: Now this is not even a comparison, Agreed.

Tendulkar/Bradman:: You need to do a little research here, Indians were not the ones to compare SRT to Bradman first. Bradman himself said SRT looked like him during Bradman's playing days.


Also Pakistanis are also known for exaggerations, silly things like: Inzi the greatest batsmen of pace, this is a big LOL and to Wasim claiming once that Mushtaq Ahmed was the best spinner in the world when Kumble and Warne were leagues ahead of him.

 

[Ab Fan]

I will pick Younis here but the difference is honestly not much. I will certainly pick VVS Laxman in test cricket over Mohammad Yousuf. Some of the posts are completely comical here. Bringing statistics here, lol.

Using that logic, can we say Ravindra Jadeja and Ravi Ashwin are both spin legends and since the difference between the duo test averages and the averages of Herath, Swann, Qadir, Saqlain, Bedi, Chandra is huge, so by all standards, Ash-Jadeja combination are much superior to them?

 

[RickyG]

I will pick Younis here but the difference is honestly not much. I will certainly pick VVS Laxman in test cricket over Mohammad Yousuf. Some of the posts are completely comical here. Bringing statistics here, lol.

Using that logic, can we say Ravindra Jadeja and Ravi Ashwin are both spin legends and since the difference between the duo test averages and the averages of Herath, Swann, Qadir, Saqlain, Bedi, Chandra is huge, so by all standards, Ash-Jadeja combination are much superior to them?

Cricket is a stats heavy game. Arguably one of the most stats heavy sports out there.

Ashwin-Jadeja are two of the best spinners in Indian conditions ever. I don't think they were as effective as the others in foreign conditions. Qadir, Bedi and Chandra are also from a different era so you can't purely rely on stats for the comparison.

Laxman and Younis are more or less from the same era so using stats to compare them is valid. As I've said in a previous post, you've got to be blinkered to think the two are comparable.

 

[RickyG]

Kapil and Imran is a worthy comparison. However Imran is the better player no one would argue.

Ganguly & Anwar is again a worthy comparison > Both have similar stats as far as I know and both are classy left handers.

Pathan/Zaheer to Wasim: Now this is not even a comparison, Agreed.

Tendulkar/Bradman:: You need to do a little research here, Indians were not the ones to compare SRT to Bradman first. Bradman himself said SRT looked like him during Bradman's playing days.


Also Pakistanis are also known for exaggerations, silly things like: Inzi the greatest batsmen of pace, this is a big LOL and to Wasim claiming once that Mushtaq Ahmed was the best spinner in the world when Kumble and Warne were leagues ahead of him.

Kapil and Imran is in noway a worthy comparison. Kapil Dev was a very competent all-rounder but if he was either only a batsman or only a bowler, he would struggle to break into most decent international teams.

Imran Khan could play purely as a batsman or bowler in almost any international cricket team at the time.

Saeed Anwar and Ganguly are miles apart. You have a test opener averaging 45 vs a batsman who bats in the middle order and only averages 41. In ODI, it's a no contest too.

There's an Indian poster that said Tendulkar defecates on Bradman just a few posts above.

Cricketers bigging up their teammates is not a new phenomenon. And Inzamam was a great batsman of pace bowling but not even the best of his era. Ponting was the best batsman against out and out pace bowling of that era. Viv Richards and Ponting are probably the two best I saw against pace.

 

[KP From India]

Ganguly as an ODI player was better than Saeed.
Also you are underselling VVS by calling him poor man's Damien Martyn and I am huge Martyn fan.

 

[NishanKonar]

Ganguly as an ODI player was better than Saeed.
Also you are underselling VVS by calling him poor man's Damien Martyn and I am huge Martyn fan.

Even Damien Martyn will be flattered to hear this. If u want to know true worth of VVS - just ask an Aussie. They nicknamed him Very Very Special

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Kapil and Imran is in noway a worthy comparison. Kapil Dev was a very competent all-rounder but if he was either only a batsman or only a bowler, he would struggle to break into most decent international teams.

Imran Khan could play purely as a batsman or bowler in almost any international cricket team at the time.

Saeed Anwar and Ganguly are miles apart. You have a test opener averaging 45 vs a batsman who bats in the middle order and only averages 41. In ODI, it's a no contest too.

There's an Indian poster that said Tendulkar defecates on Bradman just a few posts above.

Cricketers bigging up their teammates is not a new phenomenon. And Inzamam was a great batsman of pace bowling but not even the best of his era. Ponting was the best batsman against out and out pace bowling of that era. Viv Richards and Ponting are probably the two best I saw against pace.

Saeed anwar vs ganguly is as close as it gets in odis.
Anwar avgs 39 at 80 str rate
Ganguly avgs 41 at 74.
Anwars performances against sa and aus in odis were poor, ganguly s away record is better in odis.
Ganguly also has 11000+ runs and 22 centuries, theres definitely a comparison in odis.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil and Imran is in noway a worthy comparison. Kapil Dev was a very competent all-rounder but if he was either only a batsman or only a bowler, he would struggle to break into most decent international teams.



Imran Khan could play purely as a batsman or bowler in almost any international cricket team at the time.

Whilst I agree as bowler only, Kapil Dev may not make it to a lot of sides, however Kapil had he been a batsmen only would have easily gone down as an ATG bat. Kapil without even trying went to the WI and scored almost 2 x 100s at over a 100 strike rate which was the fastest scoring innings during those times and especially facing the atg WI bowlers. His 175 ODI innings played in the WC is one of the or if not the greatest ODI innings played by any captains at time. Imran struggled as a batsmen against the WI in WI, he was nothing more than an honest trier with the bat nothing more. Imran's atg status comes purely from his bowling. Dev's strike rate was much higher than Viv's which itself shows how ahead of his time he was. Had Dev concentrated only as a batsmen he could have ended his career with 10K runs



There's an Indian poster that said Tendulkar defecates on Bradman just a few posts above.
You didnt get the point, as I said it was Bradman who started the comparison to begin with, not Indians.

Cricketers bigging up their teammates is not a new phenomenon. And Inzamam was a great batsman of pace bowling but not even the best of his era. Ponting was the best batsman against out and out pace bowling of that era. Viv Richards and Ponting are probably the two best I saw against pace.

If there is a greatest batsmen of pace, Jimmy Ammarnath is ahead of Ponting and VIV, Jimmy went to the WI and scored heavily without a helmet against the WI pace battery, that is stuff of legends.

....

 

[tyron_woodley]

I think Imran would’ve transformed fast bowling in India like he did for Pakistan. There is no comparison between Imran Khan and Kapil Dev.

In fact, I’ll go as far to say that Kapil was lucky he played in India because it allowed him to get as many wickets as he did. Imran khan had to share wickets with Sarfraz, Qadir and Wasim for most of his career.

Kapil Dev would’ve been the 3rd choice fast bowler until 89 and the dropped for Waqar at that point.

But thank for proving my point about overrating your cricketers.

Granted Bradman was from a different era but he was so far ahead of his contemporaries that you have to accept that he is one of the greatest, just like Sobers, Steyn or Gilchrist regardless of eras.

Tendulkar had two cricketers from his era that were superior test batsmen in Ponting and Lara. So Tendulkar defecates on no one.

Lara is not better than tendulkar. what's Laura's average in india again better yet. what's punter's average in india.

Both are scrubs compared to tendulkar and I don't even rate tendulkar. Tendulkar defecates on every Pakistani batsman that ever lived and basically anyone from his era including ponting and Lara who are nobodies next to him in tests.

Without mcgrath and warne ponting wouldn't be as effective.

Tendulkar played in a weak indian team of the 90s era and still averaged higher than his peers. post 2000 he was past his prime and still averaged higher than Lara and punter.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Pakistanis have this tendency to overstate their overrated bowlers who a part from imran and wasim were vastly mediocre everywhere.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Pakistanis have this tendency to overstate their overrated bowlers who a part from imran and wasim were vastly mediocre everywhere.

overrate*

mediocre vs the toughest teams to tour away*.

 

[Zaz]

Pakistanis have this tendency to overstate their overrated bowlers who a part from imran and wasim were vastly mediocre everywhere.

And indians overstate their batsman

I mean come on How can you compare laxman with someone who has nearly twice the number of tons as him over a long career and avges a good 5-6 runs higher

 

[tyron_woodley]

And indians overstate their batsman

I mean come on How can you compare laxman with someone who has nearly twice the number of tons as him over a long career and avges a good 5-6 runs higher

already said younis is better due to longevity but at their peak form laxman had a greater performance against the best teams.

 

[tyron_woodley]

And indians overstate their batsman

I mean come on How can you compare laxman with someone who has nearly twice the number of tons as him over a long career and avges a good 5-6 runs higher

and laxman can actually b compared because he had great performances against top teams especially australia.

 

[Slog]

..

I repeated myself again because clearly you didn’t comprehend and kept on ignoring common sense as it did not fit with your narrative

 

[Romali_rotti]

I repeated myself again because clearly you didn’t comprehend and kept on ignoring common sense as it did not fit with your narrative

ok, whatever. agree to disagree.

 

[Hitman]

And indians overstate their batsman

I mean come on How can you compare laxman with someone who has nearly twice the number of tons as him over a long career and avges a good 5-6 runs higher

A certain Pak poster was once claiming how Saeed Anwar was a better Test batsman than Jacques Kallis.

 

[sweep_shot]

Younis Khan wins this one.

Younis Khan played some great innings in SENA countries. VVS was more of a home track bully.

 

[Zaz]

A certain Pak poster was once claiming how Saeed Anwar was a better Test batsman than Jacques Kallis.

You cant really compare the 2, different eras, different positions, someone whos played a third of the tests of the other

Younis khan and laxman have more in common as test bats than anwar and kallis

 

[Zaz]

and laxman can actually b compared because he had great performances against top teams especially australia.

So that means he did relatively poorer against the ok teams? Surely if he was that good his avge would be a lot higher

As a pakistan fan i dont recall any innings of note hes played against pakistan hence why amongst pakistan fans his stock is low

 

[Ab Fan]

Younis Khan wins this one.

Younis Khan played some great innings in SENA countries. VVS was more of a home track bully.

Home track bully, really? Let's see.

Sydney 1999, 2003, 2007
Adelaide 2003
Perth 2007
Napier 2009
Kingsmead 2010
Colombo 2010

 

[RickyG]

Saeed anwar vs ganguly is as close as it gets in odis.
Anwar avgs 39 at 80 str rate
Ganguly avgs 41 at 74.
Anwars performances against sa and aus in odis were poor, ganguly s away record is better in odis.
Ganguly also has 11000+ runs and 22 centuries, theres definitely a comparison in odis.

They're definitely closer in ODIs I will concede. But Saeed Anwar was a match winner in ODI's. Ganguly was complimenting Tendulkar and playing the anchor role until Sehwag burst onto the scene.

 

[RickyG]

....

Your Kapil Dev argument is a bunch of "could've would've should've" but didn't. Kapil was a very talented stroke maker which I don't disagree but he was an underachiever. Just because Afridi was the more talented cricketer doesn't mean he is a better test batsman than Ganguly. And just because Misbah scored the fastest test 100 he isn't as good Viv. Strike rates don't mean as much in test cricket because you have 5 days of cricket and you can bat for an unlimited amount of overs. There's a smaller difference (3 runs) between Imran and Kapil's averages against West Indies than Laxman and Younis' career averages. Imran also averaged over 50 for the last 10 years of his career so calling him an honest trier is ignorant.

I never saw Jimmy Amarnath bat but he averages 38 against WI, 36 vs Eng, 37 vs NZ so I highly doubt he was better than Ponting or Viv at anything. That's just some nationalist nostalgia that was told to you by an older relative or maybe you picked up from a Bollywood movie. But it reinforces my point about Indians overrating their batsmen.

 

[RickyG]

Lara is not better than tendulkar. what's Laura's average in india again better yet. what's punter's average in india.

Both are scrubs compared to tendulkar and I don't even rate tendulkar. Tendulkar defecates on every Pakistani batsman that ever lived and basically anyone from his era including ponting and Lara who are nobodies next to him in tests.

Without mcgrath and warne ponting wouldn't be as effective.

Tendulkar played in a weak indian team of the 90s era and still averaged higher than his peers. post 2000 he was past his prime and still averaged higher than Lara and punter.

Lara played 3 test matches in India. You couldn't find a smaller sample size than that?

Sure Ponting's record in India is a blemish on his career I agree but he was a far bigger match winner than Tendulkar.

Lara played innings that Tendulkar can only dream off.

Tendulkar might have diarrhea he's defecating so much.

 

[KP From India]

Ponting was a big match winner than Tendulkar...lol no
Ponting's team was a biggest match winning team than Tendu's team which was only decent.

 

[Hitman]

Ponting was a big match winner than Tendulkar...lol no
Ponting's team was a biggest match winning team than Tendu's team which was only decent.

Funny how his match winning prowess and his form took a dive the moment his legendary team mates started retiring and Australia's dominance ended

 

[Ab Fan]

It becomes very hard to rate Ponting as top tier ATG like Tendulkar and Lara given how embarassing he was in India.

An average of 3.4 over a particular series which was famously described by his captain as final frontier, this is really an embarassment of highest order. Time and again whenever he toured India, he would put his team into trouble and then Hayden, Steve Waugh, Martyn, Gilchrist and Clarke would take their team out of that.

 

[Hitman]

It becomes very hard to rate Ponting as top tier ATG like Tendulkar and Lara given how embarassing he was in India.

An average of 3.4 over a particular series which was famously described by his captain as final frontier, this is really an embarassment of highest order. Time and again whenever he toured India, he would put his team into trouble and then Hayden, Steve Waugh, Martyn, Gilchrist and Clarke would take their team out of that.

The guy was averaging close to 60 in 2006. The moment his legendary team mates started retiring since 2007, he lost his form and then retired in 2012 with an average of 51 odd. And he is supposed to be a far bigger match winner than Tendulkar simply because he played for the greatest team in the history of the sport

 

[tyron_woodley]

So that means he did relatively poorer against the ok teams? Surely if he was that good his avge would be a lot higher

As a pakistan fan i dont recall any innings of note hes played against pakistan hence why amongst pakistan fans his stock is low

he played well vs australia and south africa. He had many clutch games. Younis bats higher up the order. Lot of times laxman had to bat with the tall or just go for shots because shewag would usually destroy pakistan. When there are 3 better batsmen ahead of you it's hard to shine yet he did have some masterful performances. He is comparable to younis and rightfully so.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Lara played 3 test matches in India. You couldn't find a smaller sample size than that?

Sure Ponting's record in India is a blemish on his career I agree but he was a far bigger match winner than Tendulkar.

Lara played innings that Tendulkar can only dream off.

Tendulkar might have diarrhea he's defecating so much.

tendulkar at his best in his peak years averaged close to 60 and thay was the highest during the 90s era. tendulkar pukes on Lara and ponting is a fraud who was a total can vs india in I India.

tendulkar doesn't have a glaring weakness like him.
tendulkar also played alongside a far inferior bowling attack. punter had ATG bowlers in his team who made him look better than he actually is.

so tendulkar is king. punter is his servile bishop who bows down to him.

I don't even like tenda but this is a no contest.

btw philander > wasim because you know because he was more clutch rofl like punter. stats favour Philly.

 

[KP From India]

Improved in 2008 and 2010 Indian series though overall avg remained poor.

 

[andy0204]

Improved in 2008 and 2010 Indian series though overall avg remained poor.

He missed matches on 2004 tour when he was at his peak.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Your Kapil Dev argument is a bunch of "could've would've should've" but didn't. Kapil was a very talented stroke maker which I don't disagree but he was an underachiever.

Agreed there, he underachieved which was what I said all along .

Just because Afridi was the more talented cricketer doesn't mean he is a better test batsman than Ganguly. And just because Misbah scored the fastest test 100 he isn't as good Viv.

Let me destroy these arguments: Mishbah and Afridi do not have any 100 against the atg bowling attack like Australia at 95 to 100 strike rates. Dev went to the WI and clubbed those ATG WI bowlers all over the park. That 100 and the 98 he scored at nearly 100 or more strike rate have not been replicated in the WI against those atg bowlers by any other batsmen.


Strike rates don't mean as much in test cricket because you have 5 days of cricket and you can bat for an unlimited amount of overs. There's a smaller difference (3 runs) between Imran and Kapil's averages against West Indies than Laxman and Younis' career averages. Imran also averaged over 50 for the last 10 years of his career so calling him an honest trier is ignorant.

My assessment on how quality a bat you are depends on how you fared against the best, Imran *common knowledge* Struggled to put bat on ball in the WI vs their atg bowlers in test matches... Dev nearly scored back to back 100s in WI same series at like I said a ridiculous strike rate. Who can forget Dev's 100 at the late end of his career vs Donald and Co in SA. I dont really care what Imran has done against the rest, he is nowhere near DEV as a batsmen, atg bowler YES, but just an honest trier with the bat..

I never saw Jimmy Amarnath bat but he averages 38 against WI, 36 vs Eng, 37 vs NZ so I highly doubt he was better than Ponting or Viv at anything. That's just some nationalist nostalgia that was told to you by an older relative or maybe you picked up from a Bollywood movie. But it reinforces my point about Indians overrating their batsmen.

I do recall saying Jimmy 'in' WI. Jimmy avg's 54 in the WI and that too against their ATG bowlers. I don't believe I said Jimmy was better than VIV, if I came across that way, that was not my intention, I meant to say he was a better player of pace...

...

 

[big_gamer007]

Deluded Indian spotted! Younis Khan played a bit less tests, has TWICE the amount of centuries, and averages 52 vs. Laxmans 46. (A huge gap). This comparison is not close and it's an insult to Younis to compare him to someone like Laxman.

Laxman was just a good player but younis is a legend.

To think this is a close comparison you have to be suffering from delusion or must just awoken from a 15 year coma.

Not sure which it is in your case, but wish you a speedy recovery.

I didn't know my post will touch some nerves. It's understandable since YK is in most people's opinion Pakistan's greatest ever test batsmen. So the insecure pakistani fans will have a tendency to overrate him or get hurt when valid comparisons are made.

Regardless, of the above YK is a great player no doubt. His average and test runs will be greater than VVS because VVS had to play with SRT, Dravid, Sehwag and Ganguly. YK on the other hand was outshined by MoYo and Inzi when they were playing and later on feasted on dead UAE pitches where he did bulk of the scoring for Pakistan (since Pakistan didn't have many good batsmen).

Having said that, full points to YK for having a stellar record. No doubt he is a great of the game and did well in conditions which were not in his control.

If YK was in Indian team he would have a similar record as VVS, because of lack of opportunities to feast on good pitches.

I do rate YK highly and I think he's a great of the game. Just 1 tier below ATG with other greats like Mahela, KP, VVS, Clarke etc.

In this specific tier you could say YK is the best but the difference isn't that much and all are comparable to each other.

 

[RickyG]

...

You're coming from the land of ignorance clearly. Misbah has a 100 against Steyn, Morkel and Philander in a match Pakistan won. Misbah also scored a 100 off 57 balls against Australia.

Anyway the moment you started talking about Kapil's batting and Jimmy being the best against pace, you lost any iota of impartiality or objectiveness so this discuss is effectively over.

Considering your knowledge of cricket does not extend beyond India, it's practically impossible to take you seriously.

It's either that or you're trolling. Jimmy Amarnath dear god.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You're coming from the land of ignorance clearly. Misbah has a 100 against Steyn, Morkel and Philander in a match Pakistan won. Misbah also scored a 100 off 57 balls against Australia.

.

Lol what the ??? What part of art Australian attack don't you understand ?. Lol Mishbah I believe scored against a nothing bowling attack in comparison to the atg aussie attack which consisted of McGrath and Co. Was this cute 100 in the flat pancake deck of UAE ?.

 

[Romali_rotti]

It's either that or you're trolling. Jimmy Amarnath dear god.

Sounds a lot better than your delusiononal prime minister Imran khan calling Inzi the greatest batsmen of pace huh..

 

[RickyG]

Sounds a lot better than your delusiononal prime minister Imran khan calling Inzi the greatest batsmen of pace huh..

So you’ve taken a ridiculous stance in this discussion because you’re haunted by what Imran Khan said about Inzamam. Okay thank you for coming clean.

 

[RickyG]

Lol what the ??? What part of art Australian attack don't you understand ?. Lol Mishbah I believe scored against a nothing bowling attack in comparison to the atg aussie attack which consisted of McGrath and Co. Was this cute 100 in the flat pancake deck of UAE ?.

Mitchell Johnson scored a 123 in South Africa in 2009, it doesn’t make him a great bastman. You’re on a mission to really destroy any sort of logic here.

 

[RickyG]

I didn't know my post will touch some nerves. It's understandable since YK is in most people's opinion Pakistan's greatest ever test batsmen. So the insecure pakistani fans will have a tendency to overrate him or get hurt when valid comparisons are made.

Regardless, of the above YK is a great player no doubt. His average and test runs will be greater than VVS because VVS had to play with SRT, Dravid, Sehwag and Ganguly. YK on the other hand was outshined by MoYo and Inzi when they were playing and later on feasted on dead UAE pitches where he did bulk of the scoring for Pakistan (since Pakistan didn't have many good batsmen).

Having said that, full points to YK for having a stellar record. No doubt he is a great of the game and did well in conditions which were not in his control.

If YK was in Indian team he would have a similar record as VVS, because of lack of opportunities to feast on good pitches.

I do rate YK highly and I think he's a great of the game. Just 1 tier below ATG with other greats like Mahela, KP, VVS, Clarke etc.

In this specific tier you could say YK is the best but the difference isn't that much and all are comparable to each other.

Younis averages over 50 in Australia, England and India. Laxman only averages 50+ in India.

Under Inzi’s captaincy younis averaged over 60 while Inzi averaged 10 runs less than him. In the last two years of his career, Inzi averaged around 35 while Younis averaged around 60.

Putting VVS in the same tier as KP and Clarke is an insult to the sport.

Younis are VVS are not in the same tier for sure. But that’s because Laxman is a few categories below him.

I understand showing patriotism but this isn’t a way to do it.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Younis averages over 50 in Australia, England and India. Laxman only averages 50+ in India.

Under Inzi’s captaincy younis averaged over 60 while Inzi averaged 10 runs less than him. In the last two years of his career, Inzi averaged around 35 while Younis averaged around 60.

Putting VVS in the same tier as KP and Clarke is an insult to the sport.

Younis are VVS are not in the same tier for sure. But that’s because Laxman is a few categories below him.

I understand showing patriotism but this isn’t a way to do it.

younis batted at 3. laxman batted at 6. He had 3 other ATG level batsmen ahead of him who scored tons quite often. So there were times where he had to go for broke or bat with the tall and he did that magnificently. If laxman batted at 3 he would have averaged as high as younis.

younis only looked better because he only had yousuf as support. Later misbah added balance ofcourse but yousuf was already of his prime by then.



Younis averages 43 in SENA at number 3

laxman averages 39.3 At number 6

Not much difference really.

It's inflated by younis's average in england. Laxman performed better vs a strong south african side of 2005-2012.

 

[tyron_woodley]

btw Pietersen averaged a grand total of 37.3 vs SINA and it drops to 34 if you include SINAP.

so laxman > Pietersen too? wow.

He is a home bully. You guys need to relax with the inferiority complex rofl. Asian players and SENA players should be assessed based on the same metrics.

It's easier for a SENA nation player to perform in SENA and vice versa for Asians in Asia.

So if a SENA player has pathetic stats in Asia then he shouldn't be included in HOF. Punter was trash in india and that too with an ATG team. I mean I know you guys act like sycophants towards SENA nation players but atleast respect your own people rofl. Jeez they really aren't special compared to your own. You will be surprised to see the stats of some of the so called greats in Asia.

 

[shamaan]

Younis Khan for me has better average than laxman.has better average against australia and England.yonis has average over 60 vs india were laxman average is below 50 against pakistan.also younis is top 10 in 4 innings scored so yes Younis khan

 

[Hitman]

You're coming from the land of ignorance clearly. Misbah has a 100 against Steyn, Morkel and Philander in a match Pakistan won. Misbah also scored a 100 off 57 balls against Australia.

Anyway the moment you started talking about Kapil's batting and Jimmy being the best against pace, you lost any iota of impartiality or objectiveness so this discuss is effectively over.

Considering your knowledge of cricket does not extend beyond India, it's practically impossible to take you seriously.

It's either that or you're trolling. Jimmy Amarnath dear god.

Maybe you should read what your current PM says about Mohinder Amarnath and his batting against pace bowling. Read his book. Or is there some propaganda by us Indian fans there as well?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Mitchell Johnson scored a 123 in South Africa in 2009, it doesn’t make him a great bastman. You’re on a mission to really destroy any sort of logic here.

Mitchell Johnson was very talented with the bat, matter of fact years ago I made a thread on here about Johnson's batting ability. Had Johnson concentrated on batting only he could have been great..

 

[tyron_woodley]

best Pakistani batsman ever is either miandad or younis

best bowler ever from pakistan was wasim.

But in terms of peak level, shoaib had the best peak. Even better than wasim and imran. However his peak never lasted long enough. Forever the true pace king.

Most talented batsman from pakistan I have ever seen is yousuf but he under performed for some reason away from home.

 

[chazam]

i would consider Younis to be ATG whereas VVS is just one level below ATG.
But would pay to watch VVS, those silky wrists... he was an artist.Plus his record against the toughest team of the era, Australia,both in India and In Australia was immaculate. He scored an ODI century against Pakistan in a series decider as well so could have been a decent ODI bat but there was lot of competition.

 

[KP From India]

Punter has being undersold here.
He was only mediocre in India had a good stats in Sl and Pak. Bit harsh on him to cut points for performance in one place.He did recovered considerably in 2008 and 2010 tour.
In 2008 tour their bowlers couldn't buy a wicket.In 2010, he got regular 60s and 70s and would have won a match had Laxman and Ishant not have different plans.

 

[RickyG]

younis batted at 3. laxman batted at 6. He had 3 other ATG level batsmen ahead of him who scored tons quite often. So there were times where he had to go for broke or bat with the tall and he did that magnificently. If laxman batted at 3 he would have averaged as high as younis.

younis only looked better because he only had yousuf as support. Later misbah added balance ofcourse but yousuf was already of his prime by then.



Younis averages 43 in SENA at number 3

laxman averages 39.3 At number 6

Not much difference really.

It's inflated by younis's average in england. Laxman performed better vs a strong south african side of 2005-2012.

There’s a reason why I didn’t bother to respond to your last post. Your opinions that you pass off as facts are nonsensical and you’re too obsessed with Tendulkars digestive issues.

You’re ignoring Younis’ stats batting at number 4.

You’re arguing he has had Yousuf and Misbah for support while ignore Laxman had everyone from Dravid down to Ashwin or Pathan for support.

Batting in England’s swing and seam friendly conditions is apparently easy according to you.

The difference vs South Africa between the two isn’t much if I’m not wrong.

Also number 3 is a very difficult place to bat that’s usually why your grittiest/best batsman bats there which Laxman wasn’t. It’s why Younis, Ponting, Dravid, Williamson, Sanga batted there.

So anyway, keep digging that hole you’ve got started on.

 

[tyron_woodley]

There’s a reason why I didn’t bother to respond to your last post. Your opinions that you pass off as facts are nonsensical and you’re too obsessed with Tendulkars digestive issues.

You’re ignoring Younis’ stats batting at number 4.

You’re arguing he has had Yousuf and Misbah for support while ignore Laxman had everyone from Dravid down to Ashwin or Pathan for support.

Batting in England’s swing and seam friendly conditions is apparently easy according to you.

The difference vs South Africa between the two isn’t much if I’m not wrong.

Also number 3 is a very difficult place to bat that’s usually why your grittiest/best batsman bats there which Laxman wasn’t. It’s why Younis, Ponting, Dravid, Williamson, Sanga batted there.

So anyway, keep digging that hole you’ve got started on.

number 4 makes my point even more valid rofl. 4 is easier to bat than 3. 3 protexts the number 4 his tlike pujara protects kohli from the new ball.

Now you just sound even more biased and deluded. Keep digging your own hole buddy.

difference in South Africa was 8 percentage points. Like I said overall in SENA is 43 vs 39.3. Not much difference and laxman played 40 games vs younis's 29. Had he played more away the numbers would have changed. Laxman played well past his peak.

Like I said before even Aussies and punter's mum would agree that tenda was the better batsman*.

 

[RickyG]

best Pakistani batsman ever is either miandad or younis

best bowler ever from pakistan was wasim.

But in terms of peak level, shoaib had the best peak. Even better than wasim and imran. However his peak never lasted long enough. Forever the true pace king.

Most talented batsman from pakistan I have ever seen is yousuf but he under performed for some reason away from home.

FYI Waqar had a better and longer peak. Look at his stats from 90-94.

Imran khan also had a far better peak than Shoaib it’s not even close.

Wasim was the most gifted bowler that I’ve ever seen and I’m not exaggerating. If he was completely dedicated to cricket and less to fixing and politicking, he would’ve achieved much more. Not to mention, Wasim would catches dropped off his bowling almost every game.

You’re really not well informed on a topic you’re passionately discussing atm.

 

[RickyG]

Maybe you should read what your current PM says about Mohinder Amarnath and his batting against pace bowling. Read his book. Or is there some propaganda by us Indian fans there as well?

Haha some Indian said Imran khan shouldn’t be taken seriously because of what he said about Inzi and now you’re saying I should take Imran khan seriously because he praised this Jimmy guy.

I genuinely don’t know what IK said and it doesn’t matter to me. Different people can have different opinions in Pakistan unlike India where it’s all India is the best crap that you’ve been served your whole life.

You guys can’t be taken seriously.

 

[Hitman]

Haha some Indian said Imran khan shouldn’t be taken seriously because of what he said about Inzi and now you’re saying I should take Imran khan seriously because he praised this Jimmy guy.

I genuinely don’t know what IK said and it doesn’t matter to me. Different people can have different opinions in Pakistan unlike India where it’s all India is the best crap that you’ve been served your whole life.

You guys can’t be taken seriously.

Nowhere did I claim anything. I merely referred you to Imran Khan's opinion on Jimmy Amarnath when you were busy mocking him.

 

[RickyG]

Mitchell Johnson was very talented with the bat, matter of fact years ago I made a thread on here about Johnson's batting ability. Had Johnson concentrated on batting only he could have been great..

How do you rate Wasim Raja vs Jimmy, Viv, Gavaskar and Sachin then?

Surely better than all of them.