‘The Cold War is over': Pakistan PM mulling arms deals with Moscow ahead of SCO summit

[Lonewarrior]

SCO Summit 2019

 

[Lonewarrior]

https://www.rt.com/news/461781-imran-khan-pakistan-sco/
[MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] request to you to merge the SCO summit thread with this one. dont change the title of this thread plz. thanks

 

[aqeelPK]

Russia needs Pakistan in their block desperately. Entire global politics & power balance will shift if Pakistan begin supporting Iran & joins Russia. Reading defence experts analysis, listening to retd army officers & following the events happened b/w Pak & Iran & Pak & Russia & the russian media in last 5 years, I believe our establishment is willing to do so, but believes it is not the right time & rightly so. We are far too dependent on Saudis & surrounded by USA on many fronts. That's why Pakistan is desperate to get USA out of Afghanistan & limiting its commitments to Saudis as much as possible. Luckily Pakistan's think tank & policy makers are intelligent enough to know that Russia, Central Asia, China, Iran as allies would suite them far better than the USA & EU in future. Just pray Pakistan succeeds getting USA out of Afghanistan asap (they are trying all methods very cleverly despite being in such a difficult position), then you will see massive shifts in foreign policies & fate of the country.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Interesting to see Putin and Khan were next to each other while Modi was at the end of the line. Putin is a smart leader and must have seen the strong character in Khan too. He knows India is now in the hands of the yanks so will strengthen ties with Pakistan. Of course he wants to continue his arms sales to India, no point upsetting a customer too much but time to re-align his closeness.

 

[JaDed]

Interesting to see Putin and Khan were next to each other while Modi was at the end of the line. Putin is a smart leader and must have seen the strong character in Khan too. He knows India is now in the hands of the yanks so will strengthen ties with Pakistan. Of course he wants to continue his arms sales to India, no point upsetting a customer too much but time to re-align his closeness.

Or Maybe Putin just wants to get a new customer? Ofcourse the customer always thinks the other customer was fooled and he is the smartass who knows how to negotiate..

 

[Romali_rotti]

https://www.rt.com/news/461781-imran-khan-pakistan-sco/

[MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] request to you to merge the SCO summit thread with this one. dont change the title of this thread plz. thanks

It's quite interesting, I was recently reading about how the Americans are lobbying for the Indians to pull out of the S400 deal with the Russians. Offer of the Thaad missile shield and F35 could be offered etc to the Indians as an incentive if they abandon the S400. If the Americans do pressure the Indians to abandon the S400, which I now see as a strong possibility, the Russians will definitely cozy up to Pak to show their annoyance to the Indians, in such a scenario Pakistan will be given the option of purchasing some advanced Russians weapons, however as of now, I don't see Pakistan getting anything that would be a threat to India ( aka Su-35), simply because Russians would not want to annoy the Indians, as not only are they one of their closest friends however one of their major customers, probably the second biggest after the Chinese.

P.S. I get the feeling the Turks will be pressured to pull out of the S400 deal, The F35 is far more important to them in the long run than S400... I have a gut feeling Indians are also going to be facing the Turkey situation real soon...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Or Maybe Putin just wants to get a new customer? Ofcourse the customer always thinks the other customer was fooled and he is the smartass who knows how to negotiate..

Putin always wants new customers but has been in power for a long time but only recently has Russia became more closer to Paksitan. I think Putin has realised Indians will continue to buy regardless now, so lets get closer to Pakistan to counter the Yanks. It's not just selling of weapons but co-operation has increased in other areas too.

You can't blame him can you? Putin is a real strong man, he would get on with IK much more than the little man Modi.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It's quite interesting, I was recently reading about how the Americans are lobbying for the Indians to pull out of the S400 deal with the Russians. Offer of the Thaad missile shield and F35 could be offered etc to the Indians as an incentive if they abandon the S400. If the Americans do pressure the Indians to abandon the S400, which I now see as a strong possibility, the Russians will definitely cozy up to Pak to show their annoyance to the Indians, in such a scenario Pakistan will be given the option of purchasing some advanced Russians weapons, however as of now, I don't see Pakistan getting anything that would be a threat to India ( aka Su-35), simply because Russians would not want to annoy the Indians, as not only are they one of their closest friends however one of their major customers, probably the second biggest after the Chinese.

P.S. I get the feeling the Turks will be pressured to pull out of the S400 deal, The F35 is far more important to them in the long run than S400... I have a gut feeling Indians are also going to be facing the Turkey situation real soon...

Turkey has stated it wont go back on the deal with Russia for the S400. Since the US has grounded Turkish pilots training in the US, so I think it would be a massive turn around now for Turkey to not buy the S400. India should do the same for two reasons, 1. Yanks will want to sell, it;s their biggest industry and 2. No nation should trust Uncle Sam, they will be your friends one day and then enemies the next.

 

[PakLFC]

We have to put the cold war behind us. Time to move on and improve relations with Russia.

 

[AdamM97]

Or Maybe Putin just wants to get a new customer? Ofcourse the customer always thinks the other customer was fooled and he is the smartass who knows how to negotiate..

B*tthurt much?

 

[the Great Khan]

I'm just concerned that Russian weapons especially their aircraft just arent good enough. They have a very poor performance record in comparison to western weapon systems. The smart move would be to continue to drag the afghan negotiations along as much as we can, ensure we have a decent number of JF17's and setup a rd-93 maintenance factory in pakistan. Also use Russian expertise in project azm. China can help us with our airforce and the turks can ensure we upgrade the F16's. Keep the US sweet somehow and ensure they dont stop us upgrading our F16's.

We need to skip the 4.5 gen aircraft and go straight to a 5th gen fighter. Perhaps teh russians can give us some naval SU-35's but I just dont think they are all that good especially after feb 27th. the indians are realising this too. Russian aircraft im sorry to say just arent good enough inmho.

 

[aqeelPK]

I'm just concerned that Russian weapons especially their aircraft just arent good enough. They have a very poor performance record in comparison to western weapon systems. The smart move would be to continue to drag the afghan negotiations along as much as we can, ensure we have a decent number of JF17's and setup a rd-93 maintenance factory in pakistan. Also use Russian expertise in project azm. China can help us with our airforce and the turks can ensure we upgrade the F16's. Keep the US sweet somehow and ensure they dont stop us upgrading our F16's.

We need to skip the 4.5 gen aircraft and go straight to a 5th gen fighter. Perhaps teh russians can give us some naval SU-35's but I just dont think they are all that good especially after feb 27th. the indians are realising this too. Russian aircraft im sorry to say just arent good enough inmho.

We don't need 5th gen fighters as long as india is to live with Rafael. JF17 block III production is already underway which means we will be in position to counter Rafaels even before they arrive in india.
I fully agree Russian fighter jets are not good enough to encounter approaching defence fighter or missile due to several reasons (design flaws, complex operational procedures etc take pilot's reflexes & capabilities out of the equation), however their jet engines & missile seekers are best known in the world. Alhamdulillah, we have access to both of them via China.

 

[JaDed]

B*tthurt much?

For Russian weapons? No I ll be glad if PAK buys them.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Turkey has stated it wont go back on the deal with Russia for the S400. Since the US has grounded Turkish pilots training in the US, so I think it would be a massive turn around now for Turkey to not buy the S400. India should do the same for two reasons, 1. Yanks will want to sell, it;s their biggest industry and 2. No nation should trust Uncle Sam, they will be your friends one day and then enemies the next.

I believe Turkey has still to the end of July to pull out of the Russian deal. IMO they will pull out before that, Turks cant afford to pull out of the F35 program, lets be honest that jet is 5th generation and its stealth capabilities are unmatched, the Russian SU-57 is just a prototype and the Chinese 5th Generation would never live up to the F35. My only fear is India following suit as Americans are going to make an example of Turkey for India to observe, so there will be other consequences as well not just being kicked out of the F-35 program. IMO Pakistan will gain a big advantage, if Turkey end up getting the F-35, PAF pilots will get access to fly and study the aircraft, so if Indians did get it they could learn strategies on how to counter it, should Indians go with the F35 program...

 

[cricketjoshila]

Interesting to see Putin and Khan were next to each other while Modi was at the end of the line. Putin is a smart leader and must have seen the strong character in Khan too. He knows India is now in the hands of the yanks so will strengthen ties with Pakistan. Of course he wants to continue his arms sales to India, no point upsetting a customer too much but time to re-align his closeness.

Putin and Modi had a bilateral meet at Bishkek, where Putin invited Modi as the Main guest for the Eastern economic forum. No Russian leader has held a bilateral meet with a pakistani pm in decades. So i can only laugh at these theories that you are pushing.

Russia knows Pakistan cannot provide any strategic depth to it, and if there is really a need then China can get it done from Pakistan.

Russia sells billions of dollars of weapons to India, and Pakistan doesnot have that kind of money. And anything sold to pakistan will be out of Indian market forever.So economically it doesnot make sense for them either.

India is in nobody's hand. India is not a small country thats dependent on anyone for its economic or military survival. We deal with everyone, from.US to UK to France to Russia.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Putin always wants new customers but has been in power for a long time but only recently has Russia became more closer to Paksitan. I think Putin has realised Indians will continue to buy regardless now, so lets get closer to Pakistan to counter the Yanks. It's not just selling of weapons but co-operation has increased in other areas too.

You can't blame him can you? Putin is a real strong man, he would get on with IK much more than the little man Modi.

Putin just awarded Modi the highest Russian award, couple of months back. When is he having a bilateral meet with Imran?

Putin knows that Pakistan is a economic basket case and Imran can do little.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I believe Turkey has still to the end of July to pull out of the Russian deal. IMO they will pull out before that, Turks cant afford to pull out of the F35 program, lets be honest that jet is 5th generation and its stealth capabilities are unmatched, the Russian SU-57 is just a prototype and the Chinese 5th Generation would never live up to the F35. My only fear is India following suit as Americans are going to make an example of Turkey for India to observe, so there will be other consequences as well not just being kicked out of the F-35 program. IMO Pakistan will gain a big advantage, if Turkey end up getting the F-35, PAF pilots will get access to fly and study the aircraft, so if Indians did get it they could learn strategies on how to counter it, should Indians go with the F35 program...

Its highly unlikely that India will stop the Sx400 deal. US doesnot have the kind of leverage over India. Rather US is desperate to sell its goods, while India has option of Russian or French or Israeli etc vendors as well.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I believe Turkey has still to the end of July to pull out of the Russian deal. IMO they will pull out before that, Turks cant afford to pull out of the F35 program, lets be honest that jet is 5th generation and its stealth capabilities are unmatched, the Russian SU-57 is just a prototype and the Chinese 5th Generation would never live up to the F35. My only fear is India following suit as Americans are going to make an example of Turkey for India to observe, so there will be other consequences as well not just being kicked out of the F-35 program. IMO Pakistan will gain a big advantage, if Turkey end up getting the F-35, PAF pilots will get access to fly and study the aircraft, so if Indians did get it they could learn strategies on how to counter it, should Indians go with the F35 program...

Good points bro. The only thing I would say is Turkey need the S400 as their current anti aircraft defences are not the best. Turkey also has a lot of F16s so might priortise their needs. But yes it would be great for Pakistan if they do aquire the F35s. In regards to India, I read USA will offer the F22's if they dont buy the S400 but not sure if this true. Surely if this is the case it would be crazy for India to continue their deals with Russia? If India get a decent number of F22 fighter jets, their air force will be on a another level compared to Pakistan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Putin and Modi had a bilateral meet at Bishkek, where Putin invited Modi as the Main guest for the Eastern economic forum. No Russian leader has held a bilateral meet with a pakistani pm in decades. So i can only laugh at these theories that you are pushing.

Russia knows Pakistan cannot provide any strategic depth to it, and if there is really a need then China can get it done from Pakistan.

Russia sells billions of dollars of weapons to India, and Pakistan doesnot have that kind of money. And anything sold to pakistan will be out of Indian market forever.So economically it doesnot make sense for them either.

India is in nobody's hand. India is not a small country thats dependent on anyone for its economic or military survival. We deal with everyone, from.US to UK to France to Russia.

I think we will have to wait and see if India ignores Americas request not to buy S400. Sure Putin wants to continue sellling billions of arms to India but he also knows India has moved into the US camp. Pakistan may not have the money but is a very important nation in the region, esp as it has the upper hand in Afghanistan. This is a long term relationship advancement for Russia towards Pakistan, we dont know the state of both nations in decades to come.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I think we will have to wait and see if India ignores Americas request not to buy S400. Sure Putin wants to continue sellling billions of arms to India but he also knows India has moved into the US camp. Pakistan may not have the money but is a very important nation in the region, esp as it has the upper hand in Afghanistan. This is a long term relationship advancement for Russia towards Pakistan, we dont know the state of both nations in decades to come.

If Modi succumbs to US pressure on S 400 then that will be the end of his govt. And any BJP govt will be kept far from the seat of power for years to come.

India is in India's camp. US is selling or trying to India military hardware for its own economic reasons. As current scenario shows, India is buying missile systems from Israel and Russia. Planes from France. Survelliance and transport equipment from US, etc etc. US will not be able to dictate that. India has been very careful to mention a balance between its relations. Thats why we are good with Saudis Iranians Israelis Palestinians, everyone.

Russia shares a boundary with Afghanistan. They dont need a Pakistani access there.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Good points bro. The only thing I would say is Turkey need the S400 as their current anti aircraft defences are not the best. Turkey also has a lot of F16s so might priortise their needs. But yes it would be great for Pakistan if they do aquire the F35s. In regards to India, I read USA will offer the F22's if they dont buy the S400 but not sure if this true. Surely if this is the case it would be crazy for India to continue their deals with Russia? If India get a decent number of F22 fighter jets, their air force will be on a another level compared to Pakistan.

Its against US LAW bro to export F22's to another country. You might be thinking of an F-21 which is a modified version of the the F-16 which allegedly has features from the F22 and F35. At the end of the day it will be a balancing act, I feel the MODI government because of their PRO American stance may pull out of the S400, however would place another 70 x Sukhoi order with the Russians to keep them happy and not supply weapons to Pakistan which would threaten Indian security... That is how I feel things will go down...


P.S. The F22s are about 200 mill per plane and costs SIX million to operate every 2 hours it is in the sky ? This would be too expensive for India to manage..

 

[cricketjoshila]

Its against US LAW bro to export F22's to another country. You might be thinking of an F-21 which is a modified version of the the F-16 which allegedly has features from the F22 and F35. At the end of the day it will be a balancing act, I feel the MODI government because of their PRO American stance may pull out of the S400, however would place another 70 x Sukhoi order with the Russians to keep them happy and not supply weapons to Pakistan which would threaten Indian security... That is how I feel things will go down...


P.S. The F22s are about 200 mill per plane and costs SIX million to operate every 2 hours it is in the sky ? This would be too expensive for India to manage..

If Modi pulls out of Sx400, his political career is gone. He will spoil a strategic relation built over 50 years. India will lose the Russian support at the UNSC and ultimately become dependent on US. This is not going to happen.

S400 is a strategic weapon,infact some claim that the version India will receive has elements from the S 500 as well. No US weapon can match this.

India may yet order a US missile system like THAAD to keep US happy but the S400 is going nowhere.

 

[Romali_rotti]

If Modi pulls out of Sx400, his political career is gone. He will spoil a strategic relation built over 50 years. India will lose the Russian support at the UNSC and ultimately become dependent on US. This is not going to happen.

I mostly agree with you, however have to disagree here. Modi is not going anywhere, his opposition is Rahul Gandhi lol...It basically means he has no opposition, Modi will be in control for the next decade or so without much trouble regardless of a pull out from an S400 deal...

S400 is a strategic weapon,infact some claim that the version India will receive has elements from the S 500 as well. No US weapon can match this.

I do not want the F35s either and do not want India to cancel the S400, yes I have also read the S400 supplied to Indians are the best export version anyone can buy, the version the Chinese have been supplied with is a watered down S400, might as well call it a glorified S300, Russians don't trust the Chinese as they know they will try to copy it, so a watered down version was supplied to them.

India may yet order a US missile system like THAAD to keep US happy but the S400 is going nowhere.

I do not see a THAAD and S400 operating together for one country, it will be too expensive for the Indians. However my gut feeling still tells me that India will drop the S400 and go for a F35, THAAD/Patriot package.. Modi government values the Americans like no other previous Indian government due to the China threat...

bold..

 

[Mamoon]

Putin: don’t you dare talk about Panama.

Imran: I know, don’t worry.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Pak-Russia ties: PM Khan, President Putin to hold formal meeting today

https://arynews.tv/en/imran-khan-vladimir-putin-meeting/

 

[msaaim89]

I believe Turkey has still to the end of July to pull out of the Russian deal. IMO they will pull out before that, Turks cant afford to pull out of the F35 program, lets be honest that jet is 5th generation and its stealth capabilities are unmatched, the Russian SU-57 is just a prototype and the Chinese 5th Generation would never live up to the F35. My only fear is India following suit as Americans are going to make an example of Turkey for India to observe, so there will be other consequences as well not just being kicked out of the F-35 program. IMO Pakistan will gain a big advantage, if Turkey end up getting the F-35, PAF pilots will get access to fly and study the aircraft, so if Indians did get it they could learn strategies on how to counter it, should Indians go with the F35 program...

Lost count on how many times the US has extended the deadline.

Erdogan is committed and I don't think Turkey will back out especially after US behaviour with the attempted coup.

US just doesn't have the influence it once had. I don't believe they will be able to pressure India to back down out of the S400 deal either.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Money makes the world go round and the Russians will sell most things to those who can pay. But isn't that the elephant in the room here? It's a bit difficult to do big arms deals when the nation's coffers are empty.

 

[Saeed]

Doesn’t seem so, Russia still acts and looks as if its stuck in cold war.

 

[msaaim89]

Doesn’t seem so, Russia still acts and looks as if its stuck in cold war.

Can they be blamed? It doesn't help when the mighty US is at Russian doorstep.

 

[Adijazz1706]

bold..

Good points well made, it's not like Modi supporters care about stuff like this, sabre rattling wrt Pakistan is usually enough to keep them happy. US-India and Russia-China-Pakistan seem to be the power groupings in South Asia right now

 

[Gabbar Singh]

It’s ironic that Pakistanis and Indians celebrate potential defence deals as if its a good thing.

Every penny spent on arms is one less spent on health, education, science, infrastructure etc.

Pakistan spends 20-25% of its annual budget on defence and India 10%. Add that up over years and decades and it’s a huge sum of money.

Hopefully one day soon Russia, America, China, Israel etc will sell no arms to Pakistan and India because they won’t need them.

 

[the Great Khan]

Money makes the world go round and the Russians will sell most things to those who can pay. But isn't that the elephant in the room here? It's a bit difficult to do big arms deals when the nation's coffers are empty.

The country has a military budget and certain things are earmarked for maintenance and other spending. they cant ignore this stuff especially since the country is still fighting on a few fronts. They will be able to reduce the budget once a comprehensive peace deal has been reached.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Pakistan on Thursday clarified it would not become part of any “bloc” politics as regional security club leaders met in Astana to challenge the global order led by the United States

As the Russian and Chinese leaders called for a “more fairer and transparent” world order at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) summit, foreign office dismissed the perception that Pakistan joined the security club to become part of any bloc.

“I would first like to clarify that Pakistan has repeatedly said that we are not part of any bloc. We do not believe in bloc politics,” Mumtaz Zahra Baloch told reporters at the weekly news briefing when asked whether Pakistan would join China and Russian bloc.

Chinese President Xi Jinping called for the end of external meddling, a reference to the US while Russian President Vladimir Putin proposed a new Euroasia security pact, seeking an end to the external military presence in the region.

Pakistan is part of the 10 member SCO, which is viewed with suspicion by the West and the US.

“We believe in good relations with all countries on the basis of mutual respect, mutual confidence and non-interference in each other's domestic affairs,” the foreign office spokesperson insisted.

“Secondly, Pakistan's membership of SCO is not recent. Pakistan has been a member of SCO for several years now. It is a multilateral organisation. It is a regional organisation that is focused on promoting regional cooperation and connectivity and finding common solution to common problems, including in security, economic and connectivity issues,” she clarified.

“With regards to the bilateral meeting that took place between the President of the Russian Federation and the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Pakistan and the Russian Federation have a positive trajectory of relations. The two countries have been engaged with each other on several aspects of bilateral cooperation. This cooperation has increased in recent years, including in economic and trade matters, energy, connectivity and consultation on regional issues, including on Afghanistan. The discussions that took place between the two leaders yesterday were part of our efforts to find common ground for the mutual benefit of our two countries.”

On the possible launch of new military offensive against terrorists, the spokesperson said any law enforcement operation or activity inside Pakistan was, Pakistan's sovereign decision, and these actions against terrorism or against any individuals who breaches Pakistani laws and Constitution were undertaken by the law enforcement authorities under the guidance of the Government of Pakistan.

She said Pakistan and Afghanistan had been engaged on all aspects of issues of concern for Pakistan and Afghanistan.

“In the recent meeting held in Doha as well, these issues of concern were discussed, as were the issues pertaining to areas of cooperation,” she said.

“Pakistan has one major concern and that is with regards to the support that terrorist elements receive from sanctuaries and hideouts inside Afghanistan. This has been on the bilateral agenda for some time, and it is an issue that Pakistan will continue to discuss with Afghanistan until effective action is taken against these terror groups with concrete results that are seen on ground,” she stressed.

Source: The Express Tribune