Can Virat Kohli be the greatest ODI batsman even without a stellar World Cup performance?

[jnaveen1980]

He can do it but until he does, he ain't the greatest.

People are just being emotional right now.

We saw how fans turned against Kohli post 2015 WC SF and 2017 CT finals.

People were after Kohli for horrible team selection not his batting. In 2015 world cup target was too stiff.

 

[jnaveen1980]

That doesn't mean WC knock wasn't important.

It just means his overall career accomplishment isn't in the same league as Viv and SRT.

If he had the same career accomplishment as them, then his 96 heroics would have made him the GOAT or a strong contender for it.

Just you know Kohli has more runs in world cup final than Tendulkar lol Tendulkar had 2 chances.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

uh? He got a 100 against Pakistan, His scored a 100 in the first world cup appearance. He averages 41 in world cups making 567 runs. Not like he is a total failure in the world cup. Even in the WC final he made a crucial 35 after two quick wickets upfront.

He wasn't a total failure but failed in a lot of instance in WCs.

WC 2011

Failed in QF
Failed in SF
Played a crucial role in finals

But his contribution was useful ONLY because others did all the hard work.

Had Tendulkar had such a team, he would have won the WC in 1996.

WC 2015

Scored against Pak
Failed vs SA
Failed in QF
Failed in SF

CT 201 and 2017

Most of the hard work was done by Dhawan and Rohit.

Kohli did play a few good knocks but then match was in our control anyways.

His 2013 CT finals knock was good but not enough...luckily Dhoni's brain along with Ashwin & Jadeja and some luck via Ishant turned it into a match winning innings.

CT 2017 he sank when he was needed to score.

---

Compare that to SRT and Viv's WC stats.

They didn't play WC in such batting era and they didn't fail WC after WC.

Calling Kohli a GOAT right now is a joke. Some stat boosting in WCs ain't gonna change that.

Yes, he is a potential GOAT but let him play crucial knocks in a WC.

I think he can but I will wait for it to happen first.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Just you know Kohli has more runs in world cup final than Tendulkar lol Tendulkar had 2 chances.

Tendulkar did WAY more for his team in WCs than Kohli ever did.

Tendulkar at 23 fought like a Lion in 96 while Kohli at the peak of his powers failed.

When it comes to WC, it's not a comparison at all.

It's funny how Kohli's 30 in 2011 is celebrated as a clutch knock when Tendulkar's 65 on a FAR tougher pitch in 96 SF isn't just cos his team crumbled.

Kohli had a good team to make his contributions count. When Tendulkar had such a team, we won the 2011 WC (and even there, he was the team's highest scorer).

 

[AuxiliA]

And Steve Smith has a century against the legend Kohli in a semifinal of World Cup. Kohli would gladly trade all of his hundreds for such a majestic knock in a heart beat. That is the value of a World Cup knockout hundred.

This is such a desperate argument to make lol.

So according to you bowlers like Steyn and Waqar will gladly trade careers with Irfan Pathan just to have a match winning spell in an ICC final. I am glad you didn't ask Kohli to trade places with Fakhar Zaman.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Tendulkar did WAY more for his team than Kohli ever did.

Tendulkar at 23 fought like a Lion in 96 while Kohli at the peak of his powers failed.

When it comes to WC, it's not a comparison at all.

It's funny how Kohli's 30 in 2011 is celebrated as a clutch knock when Tendulkar's 65 on a FAR tougher pitch in 96 SF isn't just cos his team crumbled.

Kohli had a good team to make his contributions count. When Tendulkar had such a team, we won the 2011 WC (and even there, he was the team's highest scorer).

He can fight like Lion, Tiger, rhino. But he has got less runs than Kohli in the most important match of a world cup.Not a slight on Tendulkar. Just to show you how you can reduce the stature of a batsman using filter. World cup knock means it is a very very very small sample to judge a player.

 

[anoop]

Just you know Kohli has more runs in world cup final than Tendulkar lol Tendulkar had 2 chances.

Sorry but Tendulkar has 4 half centuries in knock out games in WC and 6 centuries in different tournament finals.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

He can fight like Lion, Tiger, rhino. But he has got less runs than Kohli in the most important match of a world cup.Not a slight on Tendulkar. Just to show you how you can reduce the stature of a batsman using filter. World cup knock means it is a very very very small sample to judge a player.

WC is a very important yardstick for a GOAT.

I would love Kohli to become the GOAT but I would wait for him to earn it.

I feel he hasn't earned it yet.

PP is always like this. When you perform, they will overhype you. Just wait for Kohli to fail in a crucial WC fixture and the opinions will change 180 degrees.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Sorry but Tendulkar has 4 half centuries in knock out games in WC and 6 centuries in different tournament finals.

still they are inferior to world cup final

 

[AuxiliA]

And Steve Smith has a century against the legend Kohli in a semifinal of World Cup. Kohli would gladly trade all of his hundreds for such a majestic knock in a heart beat. That is the value of a World Cup knockout hundred.

That is such a desperate argument to make. lol

So according to you bowlers like Steyn and Waqar will gladly trade their careers with Irfan Pathan, just to have a match winning spell in an ICC final. I am glad you didn't ask Kohli to trade places with Fakhar Zaman .

 

[anoop]

still they are inferior to world cup final

Yes but it wasn't as if Kohli scored some 70-100 runs. He has played 5 knockouts till now in WC

 

[jnaveen1980]

WC is a very important yardstick for a GOAT.

I would love Kohli to become the GOAT but I would wait for him to earn it.

I feel he hasn't earned it yet.

PP is always like this. When you perform, they will overhype you. Just wait for Kohli to fail in a crucial WC fixture and the opinions will change 180 degrees.

He has made 587 runs in 2 world cups at 41. 2 centuries. Not a bad return by any stretch of imagination.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes but it wasn't as if Kohli scored some 70-100 runs. He has played 5 knockouts till now in WC

Won a man of the match in one of the CT final. He scored well in world T20 final as well.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Tendulkar is a great world cup batsman. He is amazingly consistent. When it comes to consistency in the world cup he surpasses everyone by some distance. But based on 2 world cups saying Kohli can't do those things given that you get to face lot of no name teams in the world cup is far fetched. Tendulkar 127* not out against Kenya 140 not out against Kenya 152 against Namebia. Yes these are also world cup knocks. Personally i liked Richards 189* overs his 138. 189* came in a bilateral. If you ask what is Tendulkar signature one day knock unanimous answer will Tendulkar's desert storm.

 

[ind_win]

for all his scoring, he has to improve and start scoring in knock out matches.
I think his average in different tournament finals is around 25-30 which is way inferior to the batsman that he is.
I would also think he would be happy with 50-70 impactful runs in high-pressure matches than the 100s in low-pressure matches.
These few high 50+/100 scores are required for him to establish his challenge as the greatest ODI batsman of all time.

Now, if you have dhoni, rayudu, rahane etc it is like a wish to happen - as these other players mostly will not score or out of their league right now to assist kohli to finish matches.

He has to have 1-2 solid batsman from 4-6 whom he can count on during the match proceedings.

 

[anoop]

IMO both Tendulkar and Kohli are superior to Viv. Viv played odis when it was not taken seriously by many. I think it's only in 90's that odis were taken seriously especially after inclusion of SA and in 1996 when Sri Lanka won the WC. 1996-03 was the peak of odis.

 

[anoop]

for all his scoring, he has to improve and start scoring in knock out matches.
I think his average in different tournament finals is around 25-30 which is way inferior to the batsman that he is.
I would also think he would be happy with 50-70 impactful runs in high-pressure matches than the 100s in low-pressure matches.
These few high 50+/100 scores are required for him to establish his challenge as the greatest ODI batsman of all time.

Now, if you have dhoni, rayudu, rahane etc it is like a wish to happen - as these other players mostly will not score or out of their league right now to assist kohli to finish matches.

He has to have 1-2 solid batsman from 4-6 whom he can count on during the match proceedings.

His performance in SA series is superior to any tournament barring CT and WC. Winning a series in SA is much better than winning Asia Cup tournament.

 

[jnaveen1980]

IMO both Tendulkar and Kohli are superior to Viv. Viv played odis when it was not taken seriously by many. I think it's only in 90's that odis were taken seriously especially after inclusion of SA and in 1996 when Sri Lanka won the WC. 1996-03 was the peak of odis.

Bang on. There were so many rubbish bowlers he could feast on in the 80s.

 

[ind_win]

His performance in SA series is superior to any tournament barring CT and WC. Winning a series in SA is much better than winning Asia Cup tournament.

Yes, I agree to an extent, but scoring in WC gives larger than life image for cricketers long after they retire.
Which is why we talk about kapil's 175 even today, though hundreds of hundreds were scored by Indians after that match, across formats.

If I were kohli I would have 7 things "ordered" on my menu card

1. Test series win in Aus.
2. ODI series win in Aus.
3. Test series win in SA.
4. ODI Series win in SA.
5. Test series win in Eng.
6. ODI series win in Eng.
7. 1 wc cup win.

He consumed 2 of the 7.
5 to go.

 

[munda_khi]

To be a world atg, he has to at the very least score a 100 against the top bowlers of the 90’s against a full in form Waqar, Wasim, Shoaib, Murallitharan, Shane Warne etc to name a few. It may sound unfair but batsmen these days have it easy and have no idea what true adversity is. If Kohli was playing during the 90’s era he would have never made it big.

case closed. he cannot even if he single handily won the world cup by scoring 100 in every match. only way is he has to get a time machine to prove that his greatness, no other way. but one question why stop with these bowlers why not the great west indians. by the way Viv also didn't score against these bowlers and the west indians so why he considered to be best.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes, I agree to an extent, but scoring in WC gives larger than life image for cricketers long after they retire.
Which is why we talk about kapil's 175 even today, though hundreds of hundreds were scored by Indians after that match, across formats.

If I were kohli I would have 7 things "ordered" on my menu card

1. Test series win in Aus.
2. ODI series win in Aus.
3. Test series win in SA.
4. ODI Series win in SA.
5. Test series win in Eng.
6. ODI series win in Eng.
7. 1 wc cup win.

He consumed 2 of the 7.
5 to go.

Kapil's 175 is still being talked about because of the circumstances under which scored. Not because it is world cup. Back then 175 was an unheard of score. That too when he came at 17/5. Zimbabwe was a noob team. People still go gaga over Greenidge one legged assault against bad England team, Kapil's MCG magic, India's utter domination in Benson & Hedges trophy, Kapil's 4 sixes off hemmings to avoid follow on, Miandad's last ball six. These are cult events. Not because it is associated with world cup.

 

[jnaveen1980]

case closed. he cannot even if he single handily won the world cup by scoring 100 in every match. only way is he has to get a time machine to prove that his greatness, no other way. but one question why stop with these bowlers why not the great west indians. by the way Viv also didn't score against these bowlers and the west indians so why he considered to be best.

Ajay Jadeja, Srinath, Kumble mauling of Waqar was not enough lol He wants Kohli also to maul him.

 

[ind_win]

Kapil's 175 is still being talked about because of the circumstances under which scored. Not because it is world cup. Back then 175 was an unheard of score. That too when he came at 17/5. Zimbabwe was a noob team. People still go gaga over Greenidge one legged assault against bad England team, Kapil's MCG magic, India's utter domination in Benson & Hedges trophy, Kapil's 4 sixes off hemmings to avoid follow on, Miandad's last ball six. These are cult events. Not because it is associated with world cup.

Most events you talked resulted in victory.
No one remembers most glorious 30s-40s, but a match winning one.
Also, it was life or death match, most innings you mentioned.
That is what I am also expecting from kohli when he let down his team in two innings - CT final and WC semi final.
He has to make up in one knock out at least.

 

[rhony]

Anyway, a thread like this should have opened after VK retires without any world cup accomplishments. He doesn't have a monkey on his back like Sachin did for most of his career. Virat already is a world cup winner. As far as performances in knock outs go, he will return to his land of redemption where he silenced every critic with close to 600 runs in the test series this year. There is nothing this man can't achieve. He's robotic physically and mentally and someone that has already eked out every ounce of strength and god given talent. He has a sound technique to fall back onto and will achieve every record he sets out to achieve.

 

[fitCricFan]

IMO both Tendulkar and Kohli are superior to Viv. Viv played odis when it was not taken seriously by many. I think it's only in 90's that odis were taken seriously especially after inclusion of SA and in 1996 when Sri Lanka won the WC. 1996-03 was the peak of odis.

I tend to agree with this though comparing players across Era's is neither fair nor right. I remember the Indian trundlers in the 70's/80's and how our team feasted on them, specially one innings by Zaheer Abbas who single handedly destroyed Indians where he scored 235 while the Indians were were bundled for 199.
Until Kapil Dev came along, pace bowling was unknown to the Indians and getting thrashed by other teams, specially the Windies was a norm than an exception.

Now VK is in a different league altogether. Some of the legends themselves including Viv Richard, Javed Miandad etc have acknowledged the extraordinary skills of VK. I bet a talented player known another when he sees one. VK is writing his legacy and it will be phenomenal one. As much as I wish we had batsmen with even a fraction of his skill and temperament it is hard to deny that this bloke is head and shoulder's above the rest.

Whether he wins the world cup or other major tournaments is also to a large extent dependent on 10 other team players. Their performance in no way diminishes his legacy.

Sincerely wish we get to play the Indian team so we can improve. Nothing motivates the PK fans more than a game with India where career's on both sides, quite often, have been launched or ended.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Nope.

Viv is the GOAT for now.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Most events you talked resulted in victory.
No one remembers most glorious 30s-40s, but a match winning one.
Also, it was life or death match, most innings you mentioned.
That is what I am also expecting from kohli when he let down his team in two innings - CT final and WC semi final.
He has to make up in one knock out at least.

What about 2015 CT final. He didn't exactly let us down. Infact during CT Kohli wsa going through a bad patch. WC semi final it was a daunting total. Things can happen like it happened for Sachin who was throwing kitchen sink at the ball in 2003 wc final without even having a sighter. Failing while chasing 320 plus totals in a final is not unheard of. Most batsmen would fail. This guy has orchestrated so many chases.

 

[Hasan123]

Lol if he does score in ICC knockout, posters will still downplay Kohli

Kohli does need to score in ICC knockout to finish as the GOAT. But he's already an ATG.

 

[Chokli]

Lol if he does score in ICC knockout, posters will still downplay Kohli

Kohli does need to score in ICC knockout to finish as the GOAT. But he's already an ATG.

i hope he scores a century in sf and finals

finals 100 with a victory vs pakistan would be sweet

it be hilarious seeing all the pakistanis trying to downplay kohli

 

[Hasan123]

i hope he scores a century in sf and finals

finals 100 with a victory vs pakistan would be sweet

it be hilarious seeing all the pakistanis trying to downplay kohli

No I hope it isn't against Pakistan.

But I cannot believe our fans are downplaying him still!

 

[The Viper]

Whilst World Cup is not the only criteria, it is the pinnacle of the game. Kohli is already a top tier ATG but if he wants to be the greatest ever he needs to score in crucial knockout rounds.

 

[leatherface58]

People should remember that the guy was averaging 14 in England after his first tour which he brought up to 36 in the next tour. It is only a matter of when, not if, he has a stellar World Cup. He might not click in every match but he should have a superb knock or two (or three) in the coming World Cup.

 

[rhony]

Ricky Pointing made a good point when asked if Kohli is better than Sachin, he said you are looking at Sachin's overall career which includes his twilight years that saw his performance decrease several folds from his peak, while you are looking Kohli at his peak atm. This is unfair on both. Better would be to compare Kohli when he is done playing because like all players he is bound to go through a dip in performance near the end of his career.

Fair enough. I'm curious to see if Kohli hangs around like Sachin or Dhoni or even Ponting did. I believe Kohli's peak is better than anyone else's peak so far.

 

[charlie007]

The question should not be whether Virat Kohli can be the greatest batsman without a stellar WC performance but whether he would be acknowledged as such by some fans. Some people will find something still or invent some other yet unsatisfied criteria - best to believe what you think than trying to convince others to do the same.

 

[thirdumpire]

Going by your logic, we can say Pakistani team was always zero in comparison to Indian Team coz it couldn't ever win any matches against them in World Cup!!

Now, do you realize how lame your argument is?

Why? Are World Cups played in different format than ODIs? Why separate discussion? In fact I'd go on and say only World Cups should be discussed. Because that is when ODIs really matter. Sir Viv stands out head and shoulders above others.

 

[Aman]

No.

He can do it but until he does, he ain't the greatest.

People are just being emotional right now.

We saw how fans turned against Kohli post 2015 WC SF and 2017 CT finals.

He got completely owned in the CT Final.

When was the last time an elite cricketer folded like that on the biggest stage? (comprehensively out in two balls)

 

[WengerOut]

No.

He got completely owned in the CT Final.

When was the last time an elite cricketer folded like that on the biggest stage? (comprehensively out in two balls)

When was the last time any cricketer went onto chase 340 in a tournament final?

 

[Aman]

No.

He certainly is one of the greatest. To be "The" greatest he has to win a world cup

I think a strong WC is enough to elevate him into the top 2. He needs to win and score in the KO games to definitively move ahead of Viv and Sachin.

 

[Aman]

When was the last time any cricketer went onto chase 340 in a tournament final?

Did you not see his innings? The dude was rattled big time and ended up being dismissed twice in two balls, even after the life a ball before.

 

[WengerOut]

Did you not see his innings? The dude was rattled big time and ended up being dismissed twice in two balls, even after the life a ball before.

So you think a cricketer should always score. Give Amir some credit man. If you are suspecting his performance under pressure you can always look at T20 WC 2014, 2016, CT 2013 final and WC 2011 final.

 

[Aman]

So you think a cricketer should always score. Give Amir some credit man. If you are suspecting his performance under pressure you can always look at T20 WC 2014, 2016, CT 2013 final and WC 2011 final.

I'm commenting on the way he folded, he didn't step up and crumbled under the pressure.

I can't remember the last time I saw Kohli play like it, or give two chances in the space of couple of balls.

 

[WengerOut]

I'm commenting on the way he folded, he didn't step up and crumbled under the pressure.

I can't remember the last time I saw Kohli play like it, or give two chances in the space of couple of balls.

Still not getting the point you are trying to make. Are you saying he crumbles under pressure?

 

[CricketDon]

I know it’s hard to digest. But kohli is the greatest ODI batsman ever.

 

[Aman]

Still not getting the point you are trying to make. Are you saying he crumbles under pressure?

I was pointing out I've never seen an elite player fold quite like Kohli did in the CT Final. He can still be the GOAT, but he needs to score some runs in KO games in the 2 WCs he has left to get there for me.

 

[rhony]

Still not getting the point you are trying to make. Are you saying he crumbles under pressure?

Yes. That one time when he didn't score a hundred , which he should have, despite 340 target and despite Amir's bowling , he proved to Mr. Aman that he crumbles under pressure. It's doesn't matter what he does for the rest of his life coz Mr. Aman thinks that's the most pivotal moment and the only moment that matters for VK was that one time. Apparently Mr. Aman also thinks Viv Richards is a tool and worthless because that one time in 1983 WC, he flopped despite chasing only 183. The instantaneous performances in single innings matter instead of performances over a period of time apparently

 

[ex-q-zit]

This is the most absurd statement that is often said. If today's bowling was so pedestrian why aren't other batsmen scoring hundreds as consistently as virat.

By your standards Don Bradman too played just 2-3 teams during his lifetime and cannot be adjudged as a great.

 

[WengerOut]

I was pointing out I've never seen a player fold quite like Kohli did in the CT Final. He can still be the GOAT, but he needs to score some runs in KO games in the 2 WCs he has left to get there for me.

He failed massively in CT 2017 final and WC 2015 SF. But both times India were chasing 330 odd. Unless i am completely wrong, I never saw someone chasing that much in finals. One exception is NZ v SA semi.

 

[MP2011]

No.

He got completely owned in the CT Final.

When was the last time an elite cricketer folded like that on the biggest stage? (comprehensively out in two balls)

lol at the bitterness.

 

[Aman]

Yes. That one time when he didn't score a hundred , which he should have, despite 340 target and despite Amir's bowling , he proved to Mr. Aman that he crumbles under pressure. It's doesn't matter what he does for the rest of his life coz Mr. Aman thinks that's the most pivotal moment and the only moment that matters for VK was that one time. Apparently Mr. Aman also thinks Viv Richards is a tool and worthless because that one time in 1983 WC, he flopped despite chasing only 183. The instantaneous performances in single innings matter instead of performances over a period of time apparently

I never said Kohli can't play under pressure, I said I've never seen an elite player fold like Kohli did in the CT Final.

 

[WengerOut]

Yes. That one time when he didn't score a hundred , which he should have, despite 340 target and despite Amir's bowling , he proved to Mr. Aman that he crumbles under pressure. It's doesn't matter what he does for the rest of his life coz Mr. Aman thinks that's the most pivotal moment and the only moment that matters for VK was that one time. Apparently Mr. Aman also thinks Viv Richards is a tool and worthless because that one time in 1983 WC, he flopped despite chasing only 183. The instantaneous performances in single innings matter instead of performances over a period of time apparently

As a matter of fact Viv failed in 2 of the 3 finals

 

[rhony]

I never said Kohli can't play under pressure, I said I've never seen a player fold like Kohli did in the CT Final.

Did you know that Kohli was the top scorer in the CT final that won?

 

[Aman]

As a matter of fact Viv failed in 2 of the 3 finals

Again, it's not that he failed, it's the manner in which he batted in that game.

Did you know that Kohli was the top scorer in the CT final that won?

And how is that relevant to Kohli's performance in the CT Final?

 

[MP2011]

Yes. That one time when he didn't score a hundred , which he should have, despite 340 target and despite Amir's bowling , he proved to Mr. Aman that he crumbles under pressure. It's doesn't matter what he does for the rest of his life coz Mr. Aman thinks that's the most pivotal moment and the only moment that matters for VK was that one time. Apparently Mr. Aman also thinks Viv Richards is a tool and worthless because that one time in 1983 WC, he flopped despite chasing only 183. The instantaneous performances in single innings matter instead of performances over a period of time apparently

This!

Had Kohli chased down that target that day, these idle keyboard warriors would've said, oh the pitch was so flat that even Pakistan scored 340!

See you can never win against such types!

PS: Not to undermine Pakistan's efforts. They were immense that day and fully deserved their victory.

 

[WengerOut]

Again, it's not that he failed, it's the manner in which he batted in that game.

That happens man. Part of being human. No one is immune

 

[rhony]

As a matter of fact Viv failed in 2 of the 3 finals

People tend to ignore the best ODI performance by Pakistan in ages. It was just a perfect game for Pakistan. Everybody was blown away.

 

[rhony]

Again, it's not that he failed, it's the manner in which he batted in that game.

And how is that relevant to Kohli's performance in the CT Final?

It is relevant. He failed in one CT final.and was the top scorer in another CT final which India won. It is a game. Best of the best can be vulnerable because someone might have performed better that day. I metely mentioned another CT final now that we are judging him on CT finals.

 

[Aman]

It is relevant. He failed in one CT final.and was the top scorer in another CT final which India won. It is a game. Best of the best can be vulnerable because someone might have performed better that day. I metely mentioned another CT final now that we are judging him on CT finals.

That was a shortened game and his performance in that final is irrelevant, I'm talking about his poor performance in another Final. I'm talking about his performance in the 2017 CT, which without question he folded in.

 

[WengerOut]

1) That was a shortened game.

2) I'm talking about his performance in the 2017 CT, which without question he folded in.

A shortened game for both teams.

 

[MP2011]

That was a shortened game and his performance in that final is irrelevant, I'm talking about his poor performance in another Final. I'm talking about his performance in the 2017 CT, which without question he folded in.

lol, now you'll decide the relevance of a CT final?

 

[rhony]

1) That was a shortened game.

2) I'm talking about his performance in the 2017 CT, which without question he folded in.

Who cares if it's shortened? Question is did he fold? He got bamboozled by Amir who was on top of his game backed by a humongous target as a tail wind. Happens to the best of the best.

 

[Aman]

A shortened game for both teams.

Regardless, I'm was only talking about that game. We can all agree he folded under the pressure in it and never looked like himself after Fakhar's assault in the first innings and carried that into the second.

 

[Aman]

Who cares if it's shortened? Question is did he fold? He got bamboozled by Amir who was on top of his game backed by a humongous target as a tail wind. Happens to the best of the best.

SIF brought up his performance in the CT Final, I commented on how I've never seen an elite sportsman shut down like that on the big stage. It was a comment on that particular match, not his entire career or his ability to handle pressure.

 

[WengerOut]

Regardless, I'm was only talking about that game. We can all agree he folded under the pressure in it and never looked like himself after Fakhar's assault in the first innings and carried that into the second.

What is the point of forming an opinion based on one specific match. In that case, we can look at WC 1983 final and say Viv had a bad match. Then what? It happens. Amir was on song that day. Same way Faulkner was against you guys in 2015.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Yup. Just like you overhyped KL over Kohli. You seem to bring new obstacles in front of Kohli only to be humbled by him.

 

[rhony]

Regardless, I'm was only talking about that game. We can all agree he folded under the pressure in it and never looked like himself after Fakhar's assault in the first innings and carried that into the second.

Yeah so? What does that prove? One game where Pakistan dominated from ball one until.the end and were the deserved winners. Doesn't prove anything about VK as a cricketer. He got out under pressure chasing 340 against an excellent bowler on that day. Just proves he's human which should make everyone appreciate his exploits even further considering his robotic consistency

 

[Aman]

Yeah so? What does that prove? One game where Pakistan dominated from ball one until.the end and were the deserved winners. Doesn't prove anything about VK as a cricketer. He got out under pressure chasing 340 against an excellent bowler on that day. Just proves he's human which should make everyone appreciate his exploits even further considering his robotic consistency

I literally just said it was about his performance in that ONE match, every other match is irrelevant. This isn't about Kohli's ability to handle pressure across over his career or any other big match. It was about his performance in that match and how I've never seen an elite sportsman shut down like Kohli did in that match.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I literally just said it was about his performance in that ONE match, every other match is irrelevant. This isn't about Kohli's ability to handle pressure across over his career or any other big match. It was about his performance in that match and how I've never seen an elite sportsman shut down like Kohli did in that match.

Like really? A player totally failing in a match in an extraordinary fashion has never happened before? What happened to the entire legendary ATG WI side in the 1983 final (WC mind you not a CT)? Couldn't chase 180 odd against a much weaker side?

What happened to Waqar in 1996 QF? Got spanked by not only Jadeja, even Kumble.

What happened to Wasim Akram in 1999 final? or Shoaib Akhtar 4-0-37-0?

 

[Ab Fan]

No, but he will remain in top 5 still.

Viv and Sachin will remain ahead and unless he has more moments like WC 2015 semis and CT 2017 finals, he should be ahead of Ponting and ABDV. That is top 5 for me.

 

[Ab Fan]

Like really? A player totally failing in a match in an extraordinary fashion has never happened before? What happened to the entire legendary ATG WI side in the 1983 final (WC mind you not a CT)? Couldn't chase 180 odd against a much weaker side?

What happened to Waqar in 1996 QF? Got spanked by not only Jadeja, even Kumble.

What happened to Wasim Akram in 1999 final? or Shoaib Akhtar 4-0-37-0?

Waqar is not a GOAT, neither is Akhtar.

Wasim was Man of match in 1992 final, Viv was in 1979 final. The thread is about the greatest batsmen of all-time, not second or third or top 5 ever.

 

[WengerOut]

Waqar is not a GOAT, neither is Akhtar.

Wasim was Man of match in 1992 final, Viv was in 1979 final. The thread is about the greatest batsmen of all-time, not second or third or top 5 ever.

He was responding to a post about elite cricketer failing

 

[Ab Fan]

He was responding to a post about elite cricketer failing

Ahh, okay, you are right. Surprising to me because [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] has always rated Virat Kohli very high and across all formats. ODI is arguably his strongest.

 

[Aman]

Like really? A player totally failing in a match in an extraordinary fashion has never happened before? What happened to the entire legendary ATG WI side in the 1983 final (WC mind you not a CT)? Couldn't chase 180 odd against a much weaker side?

What happened to Waqar in 1996 QF? Got spanked by not only Jadeja, even Kumble.

What happened to Wasim Akram in 1999 final? or Shoaib Akhtar 4-0-37-0?

I never saw those guys play.

I honestly wouldn't know where they rank all time either.

 

[Aman]

Ahh, okay, you are right. Surprising to me because [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] has always rated Virat Kohli very high and across all formats. ODI is arguably his strongest.

He's already top 3 of all time in ODIs. To be the best definitively, he's going to need a strong WC. He could seal it if he leads India to a WC win, or nail it for most with strong WC with strong performances in the KO matches/top run scorer.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

Imo, he has to do one of the following atleast:

1) Completely dominate a world cup in group stage and play a few great knocks in knockout games but fail in final (like Sachin in 2003/2011)

2) Win the final by playing a great knock. If he does this, then even if he has a mediocre world cup overall I don't think anyone will care. Problem is, India getting to final if kohli is mediocre is very unlikely.

He has to do one of them to be considered the GOAT. If he does both, then he is undisputed GOAT.

 

[loves_cricket]

Who cares? if any fan rates Kohli high or not.
For us Indians, we are happy that he is playing in our team.
And we hope he carries on for some more years to come.

 

[MP2011]

Who cares? if any fan rates Kohli high or not.
For us Indians, we are happy that he is playing in our team.
And we hope he carries on for some more years to come.

This!

He doesn't have anything to prove to anyone. He is fine as it is, would love him to stay that way except for his horrible selections.

 

[Shandarchowka]

[MENTION=147687]Shandarchowka[/MENTION] will agree.

India was no match for Pakistan until 2000. Pakistan has been struggling since then but we saw Pakistan can shock India even in it's bad days - 2009 CT group game and 2017 CT final. The balance is somehow tilting again.

 

[Shandarchowka]

This is such a desperate argument to make lol.

So according to you bowlers like Steyn and Waqar will gladly trade careers with Irfan Pathan just to have a match winning spell in an ICC final. I am glad you didn't ask Kohli to trade places with Fakhar Zaman.

I'm sure Kohli will have a burning desire to score a match winning hundred in a semifinal/final like Zaman. Ask ABD what it means to not have won world cup or a champions trophy and then you will know whether I'm desperate of the players themselves are.

 

[Shandarchowka]

Going by your logic, we can say Pakistani team was always zero in comparison to Indian Team coz it couldn't ever win any matches against them in World Cup!!

Now, do you realize how lame your argument is?

Pakistan having the better head to head record even after being down for nearly two decades is a sign of how good our team was back in the day. The only blemish Pakistan has is not winning world cup matches against India but I see that getting better this year. In England conditions, Indian batsmen won't be able to cope with the swing of Amir. Now we also have Shaheen in addition to Amir. Good luck.

 

[BreadPakoda]

India was no match for Pakistan until 2000.

At least stick to your logic. India and Pakistan were equal till 2011 as both had one WC each and now India is twice the team Pakistan ever was coz we have two WCs. Pakistan cannot be at par with India unless you win another WC and India doesn't