Hashim Amla | The Mega Discussion Thread

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

[MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION],

Its obvious, all this praise wouldn't have been for any other batsmen had he scored 400+ runs against this pathetic attack. This is Amla bhai's prerogative only.

If we just change the name in OP's screenshot from Amla to Mahela Jayawardene, Kumara Sangakara or Rohit Sharma, do you think the views of people in this thread will remain the same?

 

[Mamoon]

If we just change the name in OP's screenshot from Amla to Mahela Jayawardene, Kumara Sangakara or Rohit Sharma, do you think the views of people in this thread will remain the same?

Yes, it will become bashing of a poor attack on flat pitches.

 

[DarkKnightRisesAgain]

Still a limited batsman even if he scores 500+ against a poor windies attack, goes missing in the main tournaments, hasn't got what it takes to be the best!

 

[London_Lahori]

Swing and a miss again.

My religious criticism is directed at the people who are obsessed with him.

Have I ever said why he has a beard? Why he reads the Quran in the bus? Why he should/shouldn't fast? Why he doesn't wear beer logos, why he doesn't play IPL etc etc? Its his private life, no concern of mine.

A notion that is lost on most people, who'll continue to fabricate lies just to make him look like a great Muslim.

My criticism regarding him bottling under pressure and failing in ICC events has nothing to do with his religious persona. Even if he ditches Islam and becomes an atheist hipster, my views on him as a cricketer will NOT change as long as he does not deliver for SA at the big stage.

You've said it before, you downplay Amla simply because people on here call him 'Bhai'.

Your opinions change like the weather.

 

[Mamoon]

You've said it before, you downplay Amla simply because people on here call him 'Bhai'.

Your opinions change like the weather.

I said its interesting how insecure people are regarding Amla bhai, and I definitely like to highlight that from time to time and their double standards when it comes to him.

He scores 430 in 4 games on flat tracks against a C class attacks, bravo.

Others do it, its bad for game of cricket.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I said its interesting how insecure people are regarding Amla bhai, and I definitely like to highlight that from time to time and their double standards when it comes to him.

He scores 430 in 4 games on flat tracks against a C class attacks, bravo.

Others do it, its bad for game of cricket.

True, now everyone is saying ball was swinging miles and he did it.

Had Kohli scored even 500, they would have immediately said flat track.

Different rules for different batsmen.

I don't understand why if Kohli scores the track is "always flat"

 

[Ikball]

You not innocent, you are simply naive or choose to be.

Has anyone said that he hopes that Sangakkara, de Villiers, Dhoni etc. score runs against Pakistan so that their averages aren't disturbed?

Has anyone ever lied on live TV about the fasting routine of some other Muslim player?

So based on opinion of ONE person, you are generalizing the statement.

 

[Mobashir]

That's your opinion then, but I think its absurd to say that Dhoni doesn't go for wins in ODIs. He has played some bizarre knocks in T20s, but in ODIs, he has been terrific match-winning batsman for India.

In case you weren't too interested in these matches, I am going to put some scorecards of recent chases by India and I will let you tell us what was Dhoni doing:

1.NZ vs India 5th ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/new-zea...e/match/667649.html?innings=1;view=commentary
Dhoni comes in at a very difficult situation, quite unwinable, India requires 226 from 26 overs (RRR=8,69) with Kohli at the other end playing on 43 from 53. When Kohli holes out to long on, after making 82 from 78, Dhoni is at 26 from 48, RRR is 11.35. When Ashwin and then Jadeja are out for 7 and 5, RRR is 16 with Dhoni on 43 from 66 balls with 8 overs remaining. Dhoni was going for the win?

2. India lost the 4th ODI because of top order collapse and then Dhoni batting 25 overs and scoring just 79 from 73 (that was good in 1994, not 2014) with just one wicket falling in those 25 overs. Last 18 overs partnership between Dhoni and Jadeja.
India tied the 3rd ODI, Dhoni scoring 50 from 60, RRR when Dhoni came in about 7, when Dhoni was out about 9 and a half. Thanks to an unreal partnership between Ashwin and Jadeja they didn't lost.

3. Nz vs India 2nd ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/new-zea...e/match/667643.html?innings=1;view=commentary
When Dhoni came in India required 170 from 18.2 at 9.3 with 7 wickets in hand, Kohli playing at 53 from 44. When Kohli left 6 overs later, Dhoni was on 11 from 15 and the RRR was 10,91. Then Dhoni started to accelerate and finished at 56 from 44 balls, and this wasn't enough, the RRR rocketed to 13.5.

In the first ODI, he scored 40 from 46 balls but it wasn't so bad, because at least when he went the RRR was at 8.5. He let the other a chance to win it.

5. SA vs India first ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-a...e/match/648651.html?innings=1;view=commentary
Dohni comes in with RRR at 8.61 over 34 overs: What he does? 65 from 71 balls with RRR over 14.
65 from 71 is fine when RRR is around 6 or even 7. But when it's around 10, you have to score at about 150 strike rate at least to be in the match or it does go high to 14 and 15. Whas he going for a win?

6. India vs Pak 2nd ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/589309.html
We scored 250, India rattled early, Dhoni comes in 181 from 31 is needed, RRR 5.83. Raina on the other end at 4 from 17.
Raina gone 18 from 42, Dhoni on 6 from 18, RRR 6.5. 5.3 overs later, Ashwin is gone charging down the ground, Dhoni on 11 from 29, RRR 8.
Jadu gone trying to thump the ball over cover: Dhoni 25 from 52, RRR 11.3 India go on to loose 2 more wickets in the same over so the match is lost for all counts for India.
Dhoni starts hitting some fours and a 6 when the RRR is about 25-30: Dhoni finishes on 54 not out.
Was Dhoni going for the win?


Best chaser in the world? !!!!

 

[London_Lahori]

I said its interesting how insecure people are regarding Amla bhai, and I definitely like to highlight that from time to time and their double standards when it comes to him.

He scores 430 in 4 games on flat tracks against a C class attacks, bravo.

Others do it, its bad for game of cricket.

I wonder whether you speak up so loudly when others do it.

When pointing out others hypocrisy, it's a good time to look at your own.

Stones in glass houses, don't throw.

 

[Mobashir]

I said its interesting how insecure people are regarding Amla bhai, and I definitely like to highlight that from time to time and their double standards when it comes to him.

He scores 430 in 4 games on flat tracks against a C class attacks, bravo.

Others do it, its bad for game of cricket.

These tracks were flat, they were not good for the game of cricket. Nearly as bad as the Australian series.
But the ball did something in about every game for the first 10 overs, so Amla winning against this early spell 4 times out of 4 is the only thing I liked about his batting in this series.

So do we agree with what I said?

True, now everyone is saying ball was swinging miles and he did it.

Had Kohli scored even 500, they would have immediately said flat track.

Different rules for different batsmen.

I don't understand why if Kohli scores the track is "always flat"

Same rules should apply for every batsman whatever country, religion he is from.

But to awnser your question, you should ask Kohli, why does he always score only on flat tracks?

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131867]London_Lahori[/MENTION],

I don't have much of a problem with batsmen cashing in on flat tracks, nor do I think its bad for cricket.

Flat track doesn't mean runs come automatically, you still have to earn them and not everyone can.

We will do well to create some FTB bullies of our own, and it was funny to see people praising our batsmen for the runs against Australia in Tests, on the flattest possible wickets.

Same logic isn't applied to Amla bhai either, the one that is used to put down runs by every batsman of every other country on flat decks.
[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Opening is the easiest position to bat in ODIs in this era. Hard ball, field restrictions, no scoreboard pressure because you set the pace. Ball hardly does much these days, unless there is a black cloud above or a green pitch.

There are no bowlers left in the game today to make the ball talk in good batting conditions anymore. All are dependent on the conditions.

Make any struggling middle-order player open and he will succeed.

Rohit, Bell, Thirimanne, Sarfraz etc. all struggled in the middle order but did well while opening. This is why I think we need to more flexible with our batting order, and try someone like Umar Akmal or Amin as opener and see how they go, but we are still stuck with the 'specialist' idea even though its dated.

Even if you look at the history of openers, most successful ODI openers weren't specialists. Specialist openers open in Test cricket.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

These tracks were flat, they were not good for the game of cricket. Nearly as bad as the Australian series.
But the ball did something in about every game for the first 10 overs, so Amla winning against this early spell 4 times out of 4 is the only thing I liked about his batting in this series.

So do we agree with what I said?



Same rules should apply for every batsman whatever country, religion he is from.

But to awnser your question, you should ask Kohli, why does he always score only on flat tracks?

He scores on all tracks.

But when he fails, it's labelled juicy track.

When he scores, its immediately labelled flat.

That's the hypocrisy.

Instead of the track, Kohli's runs are used to gauge the flatness or lack of thereof.

 

[TheOnDrive]

Dhoni is the best finisher ever in ODIs, anything you say isn't going to change that, but you are entitled to your opinion and lets agree to disagree here.

Whatever the role might be, Amla bhai lacks that cutting edge to be a match-winner and I won't have him in my ODI team ahead of the three other batsmen I mentioned in big, high pressure matches against quality teams but surely, I won't look past Amla bhai in bilaterals.

There has been never been a better bilateral player than him, unless you need to chase 300+, but I'll be generous and let that go as well.

What kind of logic is this? Is a match-winner a cricketer who only chases 300+ scores successfully? If a team makes 250 in 50 overs on a pitch with some life and it get's chased down with Amla making 130 @ SR 90, is that not a match winning performance?

 

[Mamoon]

What kind of logic is this? Is a match-winner a cricketer who only chases 300+ scores successfully? If a team makes 250 in 50 overs on a pitch with some life and it get's chased down with Amla making 130 @ SR 90, is that not a match winning performance?

It is still a brilliant match-winning effort, so please provide a list of matches where he has helped South Africa chase down a big total.

300 is just tentative cut off point, because its the match-winning score on flat tracks these days and a challenge to chase it.

He is always banking on his partners to force the initiative, because he is an accumulator and doesn't grab the game by the scruff of its neck.

He is lucky to playing with a world class bowling attack that hardly lets the team score 300+ and he rarely has to deal with scoreboard pressure. If South Africa would conceded 280+ regularly, he will often get exposed like he did vs us in that 260 chase.

 

[Mobashir]

[MENTION=131867]London_Lahori[/MENTION],

I don't have much of a problem with batsmen cashing in on flat tracks, nor do I think its bad for cricket.

Flat track doesn't mean runs come automatically, you still have to earn them and not everyone can.

We will do well to create some FTB bullies of our own, and it was funny to see people praising our batsmen for the runs against Australia in Tests, on the flattest possible wickets.

Same logic isn't applied to Amla bhai either, the one that is used to put down runs by every batsman of every other country on flat decks.
[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Opening is the easiest position to bat in ODIs in this era. Hard ball, field restrictions, no scoreboard pressure because you set the pace. Ball hardly does much these days, unless there is a black cloud above or a green pitch.

There are no bowlers left in the game today to make the ball talk in good batting conditions anymore. All are dependent on the conditions.

Make any struggling middle-order player open and he will succeed.

Rohit, Bell, Thirimanne, Sarfraz etc. all struggled in the middle order but did well while opening. This is why I think we need to more flexible with our batting order, and try someone like Umar Akmal or Amin as opener and see how they go, but we are still stuck with the 'specialist' idea even though its dated.

Even if you look at the history of openers, most successful ODI openers weren't specialists. Specialist openers open in Test cricket.

You are yet to awnser my post on Dhoni not going for wins in some chases.
Thirimane, Sarfraz didn't really bat in the middle order. As I said, the best is number 3 or 4. And both were either playing at the top or down at 6 and 7.

Hafeez failed at 1-2, and had brilliant stats at 3.
Bell and Rohit, well they used to play in the middle so long ago, you can't even compare with now.

 

[Mamoon]

You are yet to awnser my post on Dhoni not going for wins in some chases.
Thirimane, Sarfraz didn't really bat in the middle order. As I said, the best is number 3 or 4. And both were either playing at the top or down at 6 and 7.

Hafeez failed at 1-2, and had brilliant stats at 3.
Bell and Rohit, well they used to play in the middle so long ago, you can't even compare with now.

Provide a list of chases that Dhoni didn't go for, and then also provide the number of matches he has finished for India.

Compare the ratio between the two. He has done it countless times, failing a few times is part of it, not a big deal.

Hafeez's stats at 3 were boosted by the SL series where he got three hundreds. He would have got them had he opened too.

He is not good enough to maintain that 50 average that he has at 3 at any batting position, nothing more than a substandard batsman who comes off once in 10 games.

 

[Mamoon]

Thirimanne did bat in the middle order and he didn't do well, before he was promoted and responded with back-to-back hundreds against Pakistan in the Asia Cup.

Number 3 is the position where the best batsman of the team needs to play - the ideal position, and de Villiers should stop hiding at 5 and play at that position, and Kohli needs to go back there as well.

 

[JaDed]

When Dhoni wasn't there we couldn't finish what Sachin used to give us but now we are considered good chasers that is the difference between the then Indian team and now.

 

[Mobashir]

Provide a list of chases that Dhoni didn't go for,

In case you missed it, there is three chases where he clearly didn't go for it.
In case you weren't too interested in these matches, I am going to put some scorecards of recent chases by India and I will let you tell us what was Dhoni doing:

1.NZ vs India 5th ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/new-zeal...iew=commentary
Dhoni comes in at a very difficult situation, quite unwinable, India requires 226 from 26 overs (RRR=8,69) with Kohli at the other end playing on 43 from 53. When Kohli holes out to long on, after making 82 from 78, Dhoni is at 26 from 48, RRR is 11.35. When Ashwin and then Jadeja are out for 7 and 5, RRR is 16 with Dhoni on 43 from 66 balls with 8 overs remaining. Dhoni was going for the win?

2. India lost the 4th ODI because of top order collapse and then Dhoni batting 25 overs and scoring just 79 from 73 (that was good in 1994, not 2014) with just one wicket falling in those 25 overs. Last 18 overs partnership between Dhoni and Jadeja.
India tied the 3rd ODI, Dhoni scoring 50 from 60, RRR when Dhoni came in about 7, when Dhoni was out about 9 and a half. Thanks to an unreal partnership between Ashwin and Jadeja they didn't lost.

3. Nz vs India 2nd ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/new-zeal...iew=commentary
When Dhoni came in India required 170 from 18.2 at 9.3 with 7 wickets in hand, Kohli playing at 53 from 44. When Kohli left 6 overs later, Dhoni was on 11 from 15 and the RRR was 10,91. Then Dhoni started to accelerate and finished at 56 from 44 balls, and this wasn't enough, the RRR rocketed to 13.5.

In the first ODI, he scored 40 from 46 balls but it wasn't so bad, because at least when he went the RRR was at 8.5. He let the other a chance to win it.

5. SA vs India first ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-af...iew=commentary
Dohni comes in with RRR at 8.61 over 34 overs: What he does? 65 from 71 balls with RRR over 14.
65 from 71 is fine when RRR is around 6 or even 7. But when it's around 10, you have to score at about 150 strike rate at least to be in the match or it does go high to 14 and 15. Whas he going for a win?

6. India vs Pak 2nd ODI : http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/589309.html
We scored 250, India rattled early, Dhoni comes in 181 from 31 is needed, RRR 5.83. Raina on the other end at 4 from 17.
Raina gone 18 from 42, Dhoni on 6 from 18, RRR 6.5. 5.3 overs later, Ashwin is gone charging down the ground, Dhoni on 11 from 29, RRR 8.
Jadu gone trying to thump the ball over cover: Dhoni 25 from 52, RRR 11.3 India go on to loose 2 more wickets in the same over so the match is lost for all counts for India.
Dhoni starts hitting some fours and a 6 when the RRR is about 25-30: Dhoni finishes on 54 not out.
Was Dhoni going for the win?


Best chaser in the world? !!!!

and then also provide the number of matches he has finished for India.

Compare the ratio between the two. He has done it countless times, failing a few times is part of it, not a big deal.

Even once in a career is a too much. I provided you a list of three occasions in the last 14 months. Because here we are not talking about failing to win, we are talking about not even going for a win for personal stats.

Hafeez's stats at 3 were boosted by the SL series where he got three hundreds. He would have got them had he opened too.

He is not good enough to maintain that 50 average that he has at 3 at any batting position, nothing more than a substandard batsman who comes off once in 10 games.

I don't rate Hafeez but that's not the question here.
Hafeez like batsman who struggle against swing do better at 3 or 4 when they don't need to bat first 8-10 overs.

And so far it's proven.

 

[Mobashir]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], there are quotations problems in my last post and I can't edit it, but I hope you are smart enough to understand it.

 

[Mobashir]

Thirimanne did bat in the middle order and he didn't do well, before he was promoted and responded with back-to-back hundreds against Pakistan in the Asia Cup.

Thirimane averages 33.84 as opener in 13 matches.
Thirimane averages 38.23 at 3 and 4 in 17 matches.

Whet is the next excuse?
I agree that opening the innings is also quite easy these days, but in some places you have something happening for the first 8-10 overs and it becomes so much easier to bat at 3 or 4.

Number 3 is the position where the best batsman of the team needs to play - the ideal position, and de Villiers should stop hiding at 5 and play at that position, and Kohli needs to go back there as well.

 

[Mobashir]

Number 3 is the position where the best batsman of the team needs to play - the ideal position, and de Villiers should stop hiding at 5 and play at that position, and Kohli needs to go back there as well.

ABDV isn't hidding, he hasn't got great players around him so he bats at 4.
Kohli is hiding, used to bat 3, now bats at 4 and he has Raina and Dhoni at 5 and 6. This what you call hiding.

 

[Sherlock]

So all of these external factors, which by the way have nothing to do with Amla himself, are the reason you attempt to put him down?

You attempt to put him down because of what other people say about the man, as opposed to what he does himself.

My friend, it's your head which seems to be so far up a place the sun doesn't shine, that you can't see your pathetic ways.

Spot on.

 

[TheOnDrive]

[/b]

It is still a brilliant match-winning effort, so please provide a list of matches where he has helped South Africa chase down a big total.

300 is just tentative cut off point, because its the match-winning score on flat tracks these days and a challenge to chase it.

He is always banking on his partners to force the initiative, because he is an accumulator and doesn't grab the game by the scruff of its neck.

He is lucky to playing with a world class bowling attack that hardly lets the team score 300+ and he rarely has to deal with scoreboard pressure. If South Africa would conceded 280+ regularly, he will often get exposed like he did vs us in that 260 chase.

He gets his team close to home more often than not, be it a "big" total or not, can't fault him for having a world class bowling attack with him. He does what he has to do and he is great at it.

 

[Mamoon]

)

So in 10 years, he didn't for 3 chases, which negates all the other brilliant chases he has pulled off for India? Brilliant logic.

Actually, Hafeez's struggles against 'swing' is a myth. He is just not a very competent batsman, and struggles against any time of good bowling.

He struggles against swing/seam/off spin/leg spin etc. and it takes one good delivery of any kind to get him out. That's why the idea of playing him at number 6 is not something I have been too interested in, because even at that position he will be a hit and miss player.

If he struggled against swing only, he would have had a great record against most teams because not many teams have quality pacers these days, but he has ordinary numbers against everyone barring minnows and SL, due to that one series.

Look deeper than stats. Thirimanne scored back to back hundreds against Pakistan while opening and so far has played 14 matches only, which is not a big enough sample size to conclude that he is not better as an opener, especially when showed his potential by immediately scoring hundreds against Pakistan after a prolonged spell of poor performances in the middle order.

That's just an excuse for de Villiers. in ODIs, you'd want to your best batsman to face maximum deliveries. To have a player like him come in with 20-25 overs left in the innings is absurd. He is versatile enough to bat through the innings which he should be doing.

A top 3 of de Kock, Amla bhai and de Villiers will be a nightmare. Kohli needs to bat at 3 too.

Smith
Williamson
de Villiers
Sangakkara
Haris Sohail
Kohli
Samuels
Root

These are the players that should be batting at number 3 for their respective teams in ODIs, because they are their best batsmen.

 

[Mamoon]

^ Excuse the negligible typos

 

[Mamoon]

Not playing your best batsman at number 3 is a defensive move, and no excuse can justify it.

 

[Mobashir]

)

So in 10 years, he didn't for 3 chases, which negates all the other brilliant chases he has pulled off for India? Brilliant logic.

Ok show me the list of "all the other brilliant chases he has pulled off for India", where the RRR is around or over 8 or 10 when he walks in...
That is called pull off. Chasing at 6-7 RPO in the last overs on a 300+ pitch is not pulled off.

 

[Mamoon]

Ok show me the list of "all the other brilliant chases he has pulled off for India", where the RRR is around or over 8 or 10 when he walks in...
That is called pull off. Chasing at 6-7 RPO in the last overs on a 300+ pitch is not pulled off.

Okay.

This is the reason why I actually enjoy discussions with you even if you disagree because you have your methods of rating players just like I do, which I respect.

So according to your criteria, who is the best finisher/chaser in the world? Who would be your top 3?

 

[Mamoon]

even if we disagree*

 

[Bilal7]

It is eye-opening to see which group of PP'ers keeps talking about Amla's religious inclinations and which group is staying on topic and discussing cricket. I do wonder where the Mods are and when they will do some cleaning up over here.

On topic:

Amla now has the best innings to hundreds ratio out of any player with atleast 10 hundreds. Should comfortably get past Ponting's 30 centuries.

 

[Mobashir]

Okay.

This is the reason why I actually enjoy discussions with you even if you disagree because you have your methods of rating players just like I do, which I respect.

So according to your criteria, who is the best finisher/chaser in the world? Who would be your top 3?

Thanks.

As I already told you in another thread, there is no more this special pressure of chasing that there was back in the 90's. this pressure exists more on bowling friendly tracks when the batsman have to first set, then look at the RRR. Only the Pakistani team still does this on any pitch any condition.

So lets say we are talking about a par score these days, something about 290 have to be chased. I think the same batsmen that I rate best are the best to chase this target down. That means, in no particular order, Amla, Kohli, Sanga and ABDV. ABDV is the only one who have an edge over the other for me.
The other three have their advantages and disadvantages... Amla will be the best on a 220-250 pitch with early movement. Kohli will be the best if the RRR is a little bit high, lets say, around 8. Sanga is the middle man, not as Solid as Amla against swing but better than Kohli, not as flamboyant as Kohli once set on a flat track, but better than Amla.
ABDV, for me is better than all three, in all departments apart from not giving your wickets to new ball swing where Amla as really surprised me.
that was about chasing.

Finishing, well for me that's I will call, 20 overs 150 runs required with 7 wickets to go, or 10-12 overs, about 100 runs to go, then :
ABDV is still the best against any bowling, apart from him, Raina is tremendous, and as a Pakistani, I will not like to have one of these two at the crease. Then Kohli is also good for this. They are probably the top 3 for me.
Others that can be good from every team : SPD Smith, Samuels, Morgan, Ross Taylor (actually he maybe my 4th pick after the top 3), Sanga and Umar.

The three I am quite certain will loose it against any good team if any other batsman don't play at a high rate: Misbah, Dhoni and Mathews. Ok, Misbah is much inferior to the other two.
But they will all three , start tuck tucking and hitting it too late.

 

[bill_123]

It is eye-opening to see which group of PP'ers keeps talking about Amla's religious inclinations and which group is staying on topic and discussing cricket. I do wonder where the Mods are and when they will do some cleaning up over here.

On topic:

Amla now has the best innings to hundreds ratio out of any player with atleast 10 hundreds. Should comfortably get past Ponting's 30 centuries.

its funny how some trolls are now disrespecting amla based on his religious beliefs
infact a few are indirectly making fun of his beliefs and are disrespecting a religion by discussing things which are not related to amla the cricketer....for god sakes if a hindu loves sachin or kohli for his religion so be it man...who are we to judge...but here people are going far enough with amla...some even crossing limits...if you have something to say about amla the cricketer no issues go ahead...bash him as much as you want but there are kids...some really insensitive trolls who are brining his religion and his beliefs and other religious figures etc into these threads for no reason...I hope mods look into this.

 

[Mobashir]

It is eye-opening to see which group of PP'ers keeps talking about Amla's religious inclinations and which group is staying on topic and discussing cricket. I do wonder where the Mods are and when they will do some cleaning up over here.

On topic:

Amla now has the best innings to hundreds ratio out of any player with atleast 10 hundreds. Should comfortably get past Ponting's 30 centuries.

I mostly don't even read these kind of posts, but incredible that these kind of discussions are regularly appearing in Amla's threads.

 

[Bilal7]

I mostly don't even read these kind of posts, but incredible that these kind of discussions are regularly appearing in Amla's threads.

Despite a warning having already been issued. We have some really sad people living in this world.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Okay, thanks for the detailed explanation, but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

In terms of finishing, I'd put Dhoni and Mathews as the top 2.

 

[IndianWillow]

Thanks.

As I already told you in another thread, there is no more this special pressure of chasing that there was back in the 90's. this pressure exists more on bowling friendly tracks when the batsman have to first set, then look at the RRR. Only the Pakistani team still does this on any pitch any condition.

So lets say we are talking about a par score these days, something about 290 have to be chased. I think the same batsmen that I rate best are the best to chase this target down. That means, in no particular order, Amla, Kohli, Sanga and ABDV. ABDV is the only one who have an edge over the other for me.
The other three have their advantages and disadvantages... Amla will be the best on a 220-250 pitch with early movement. Kohli will be the best if the RRR is a little bit high, lets say, around 8. Sanga is the middle man, not as Solid as Amla against swing but better than Kohli, not as flamboyant as Kohli once set on a flat track, but better than Amla.
ABDV, for me is better than all three, in all departments apart from not giving your wickets to new ball swing where Amla as really surprised me.
that was about chasing.

Finishing, well for me that's I will call, 20 overs 150 runs required with 7 wickets to go, or 10-12 overs, about 100 runs to go, then :
ABDV is still the best against any bowling, apart from him, Raina is tremendous, and as a Pakistani, I will not like to have one of these two at the crease. Then Kohli is also good for this. They are probably the top 3 for me.
Others that can be good from every team : SPD Smith, Samuels, Morgan, Ross Taylor (actually he maybe my 4th pick after the top 3), Sanga and Umar.

The three I am quite certain will loose it against any good team if any other batsman don't play at a high rate: Misbah, Dhoni and Mathews. Ok, Misbah is much inferior to the other two.
But they will all three , start tuck tucking and hitting it too late.

In general, Dhoni's slower 50s come at at S/R of 80, and his faster 50s at 125+. Dhoni rarely scores slow 50s that can singlehandedly cost India the match. This is far removed from your representation of Dhoni here. Dhoni is in decline as a player now (as evident from his retirement from test cricket) but there used to be a time when Dhoni could be expected to finish off matches quite reliably. If Dhoni gets a 50 you can be pretty sure that India is going to make a match of it, because most of Dhoni's 50 are scored at a S/R of 100 or more.

 

[Mobashir]

In general, Dhoni's slower 50s come at at S/R of 80, and his faster 50s at 125+. Dhoni rarely scores slow 50s that can singlehandedly cost India the match. This is far removed from your representation of Dhoni here. Dhoni is in decline as a player now (as evident from his retirement from test cricket) but there used to be a time when Dhoni could be expected to finish off matches quite reliably. If Dhoni gets a 50 you can be pretty sure that India is going to make a match of it, because most of Dhoni's 50 are scored at a S/R of 100 or more.

This time was just so short, it lasted maybe the first year of Dhoni or maybe a little more.

 

[Hawkeye]

Amla keeps rollin, haters hatin' ;-D

 

[soso_killer]

Why are we so inconsistent?
I'm curious, what was the highest score ever chased in WC K/O game?
What are the highest score in K/O games, and how did the team batting 2nd fair?

(I know Ireland chased 300 against England, but that was in the group stages.)

So why are we fooling ourselves here?

2ndly if Amla can't slog despite a S.R of 90 I also know a player or two who can't slog on a true bouncy deck with a hint of swing against a good attack despite averaging 50. Kohli is his name.

Each and every has their weakness, you just have to be lucky enough your team mates paper those weaknesses

 

[Buffet]

I'm curious, what was the highest score ever chased in WC K/O game?

Only 4 times 250+ has been chased in knockout stage.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...late=results;trophy=12;type=team;view=innings

 

[soso_killer]

Only 4 times 250+ has been chased in knockout stage.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...late=results;trophy=12;type=team;view=innings

Lol, where is this phenomenon of 300 coming from?
Its also interesting that 250+ has never been chased outside Asia. Maybe that explains the 300+ chases.

 

[soso_killer]

And anyone who thinks the pitches were flat in the recently concluded ODI series has no idea what they are talking about.
Apart from Jo'burg which we produces plenty of runs for a day game, all other surfaces had something for bowlers. West Indies were not good enough to exploit the conditions.

This is a country where the so called greatest ODI bat of all time could only manage a paltry average of 27 at a SR of 60 odd. Let's take it easy on the flat tracks bit else we might offend him...

 

[GreenKnightRises]

oohh.. This must be really painful for some beard haters

 

[Strike Rate]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION] saw you discusing a certain someone with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] yesterday that guy scored 17 runs with a strike rate of 53 today when his team needed him most to stay till the end to get them to respectable total

 

[Tec15]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION] saw you discusing a certain someone with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] yesterday that guy scored 17 runs with a strike rate of 53 today when his team needed him most to stay till the end to get them to respectable total

Obviously a meaningless match which doesn't count. Not like *that* Pakistan South Africa game which was obviously the most important match in the history of the Universe.

 

[Strike Rate]

Obviously a meaningless match which doesn't count. Not like *that* Pakistan South Africa game which was obviously the most important match in the history of the Universe.

yes that was match of the century because amla bhai got dismissed in it

 

[Mobashir]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION] saw you discusing a certain someone with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] yesterday that guy scored 17 runs with a strike rate of 53 today when his team needed him most to stay till the end to get them to respectable total

17 from 32 balls and that's not even the worst part of it.
24 dot balls out 32, 75% of dot balls. It's just ridiculous to say he is one of the best ever or things like that. He has very rarely been in Indi'a top 3 batsmen playing the match.

Dhoni is a likable man, and I really like his ODI captaincy most of the times, how he uses his bowlers etc, but all this best in the world things are retarded comments.

 

[Bilal7]

Obviously a meaningless match which doesn't count. Not like *that* Pakistan South Africa game which was obviously the most important match in the history of the Universe.

)

Hilarious. If you mention that game to show how good a bowler Junaid is, you will be accused of living in the past.

 

[Bilal7]

Amla is clearly better than Kohli and Dhoni.

 

[Mobashir]

[MENTION=43051]Mobashir[/MENTION]

Okay, thanks for the detailed explanation, but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

In terms of finishing, I'd put Dhoni and Mathews as the top 2.

24 dot balls outs of 32. 75%.

In case you didn't know, one of my biggest criteria in rating a batsman is single taking ability against any kind of bowler in any situation.
Dhoni does is brilliantly with some 2's when he is chasing at 6-7 RPO, or when he is batting first in India, and India have to go for an acceleration, as the opposition team is setting defensive fields and let the single happen.
Always struggled to take singles in other situations. Just don't have the ability.

 

[Strike Rate]

17 from 32 balls and that's not even the worst part of it.
24 dot balls out 32, 75% of dot balls. It's just ridiculous to say he is one of the best ever or things like that. He has very rarely been in Indi'a top 3 batsmen playing the match.

Dhoni is a likable man, and I really like his ODI captaincy most of the times, how he uses his bowlers etc, but all this best in the world things are retarded comments.

i like him too specially because of his humble personality but coming to the point of his ability to finish matches i always notice when Dhoni come to the crease in chase situation even if the Required RR is low he plays too many dots ball to make that Required RR really high sometime even from 6.5-7 to 9

 

[Mobashir]

Amla is clearly better than Kohli and Dhoni.

That's true for the moment in ODI's.
No need to mention he is better than Dhoni, or better than Kohli as an overall batsman, these things are given whatever some people try.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't get the point of this discussion.

Who said Dhoni is a superior batsman than Amla bhai?

That's obvious when you look at their records in Test cricket. Its a landslide in Amla bhai's favor. Yes Dhoni keeps, but even then, he has no notable performance outside Asia.

Even in ODIs, he doesn't have many great innings outside the subcontinent.

Even if you take individual skills, only when it comes to hitting ability is Dhoni better and actually Dhoni is quite poor in terms of strike rotation, but he makes up for it with big hitting.

But that's not the crux of the argument . . . the argument is, who is the better clutch player?

Who will you back to come good in a big match?

Can Amla bhai play an innings like Dhoni did in the World Cup final?

Can you bank on him to win South Africa a knockout in the coming World Cup?

I'm not sure, he has choked left right in every ICC event so far along with de Villiers, in spite of being the 'best batsmen in the world', they are yet to win a single knockout game for South Africa. Can anyone explain why?

All this matters more to me than scoring runs bilaterals, which no one does better than Amla bhai, but its all about impact, and he's not an impact player.

If its a series decider,

a big chase,

a knockout match,

Give me Dhoni over Amla bhai any day of the week. The latter is just not clutch enough for my liking, and that's how I rate players in LOIs cricket.

If you cannot perform on the big stage, your bilaterals are meaningless.

 

[Strike Rate]

the defending legend is back with a bang!

 

[Mamoon]

Dhoni's World Cup final innings towers over anything Amla bhai has ever done in his ODI career.

No one has score more soft runs than he has, and has hardly had to deal with scoreboard pressure.

When he was tested on that front, he failed when the team needed 30 of 30 balls and couldn't lay bat on ball.

de Villiers is a bottler too, but he has had more impact for SA and produced more meaningful knocks that Amla bhai will probably will throughout his career.

He's the prized wicket in his team, not Amla bhai.

 

[Mamoon]

has scored*

Now that the World Cup has started, of all Amla bhai's class, wrists, timing, technique, attitude towards the game is going to go out of the window, and he's going to turn into a kitten again and probably play some hack shot against Finn or play onto his boots and get caught in the slip.

That has been the story of his ODI career. Can hardly recall more than 4/5 of his 19 ODI hundreds.

 

[Mobashir]

I don't get the point of this discussion.

Who said Dhoni is a superior batsman than Amla bhai?

That's obvious when you look at their records in Test cricket. Its a landslide in Amla bhai's favor. Yes Dhoni keeps, but even then, he has no notable performance outside Asia.

Even in ODIs, he doesn't have many great innings outside the subcontinent.

Even if you take individual skills, only when it comes to hitting ability is Dhoni better and actually Dhoni is quite poor in terms of strike rotation, but he makes up for it with big hitting.

But that's not the crux of the argument . . . the argument is, who is the better clutch player?

Who will you back to come good in a big match?

Can Amla bhai play an innings like Dhoni did in the World Cup final?

Can you bank on him to win South Africa a knockout in the coming World Cup?

I'm not sure, he has choked left right in every ICC event so far along with de Villiers, in spite of being the 'best batsmen in the world', they are yet to win a single knockout game for South Africa. Can anyone explain why?

All this matters more to me than scoring runs bilaterals, which no one does better than Amla bhai, but its all about impact, and he's not an impact player.

If its a series decider,

a big chase,

a knockout match,

Give me Dhoni over Amla bhai any day of the week. The latter is just not clutch enough for my liking, and that's how I rate players in LOIs cricket.

If you cannot perform on the big stage, your bilaterals are meaningless.

This was a decider for India.

Now I will let you show me, Dhoni's clutch innings in big games?

Ok, you have one in the world cup Final, next?

PS : My take on that world cup final innings, Ghambir batted better than him. It was again on an ultra flat track, against mediocre bowling at his best and no RRR pressure at all, playing at home, against the familiar Sri Lankan team. It was probably the 3rd best innings of the final itself. Ghambir, number 1, Jayawardene number 2 and then Dhoni.

You are making a big deal of a just very good innings.

 

[Tec15]

What about Dhoni's failures in the quarters and the semis? What about his failure in a must win chase in the 2007 World Cup? All of them don't count and he is "clutch" simply because of one innings?

 

[Mamoon]

This was a decider for India.

Now I will let you show me, Dhoni's clutch innings in big games?

Ok, you have one in the world cup Final, next?

PS : My take on that world cup final innings, Ghambir batted better than him. It was again on an ultra flat track, against mediocre bowling at his best and no RRR pressure at all, playing at home, against the familiar Sri Lankan team. It was probably the 3rd best innings of the final itself. Ghambir, number 1, Jayawardene number 2 and then Dhoni.

You are making a big deal of a just very good innings.

These factors go out of the window when it comes to the World Cup Final.

Let alone World Cup Final, any ICC event has its own pressure.

Inzamam the great match winner flopped in every World Cup since 92,

Tendulkar the legend score 23 runs in two World Cup Finals collectively,

World class South African players are yet to win a single knockout.

 

[Mobashir]

Dhoni's World Cup final innings towers over anything Amla bhai has ever done in his ODI career.

No one has score more soft runs than he has, and has hardly had to deal with scoreboard pressure.

When he was tested on that front, he failed when the team needed 30 of 30 balls and couldn't lay bat on ball.

de Villiers is a bottler too, but he has had more impact for SA and produced more meaningful knocks that Amla bhai will probably will throughout his career.

He's the prized wicket in his team, not Amla bhai.

has scored*

Now that the World Cup has started, of all Amla bhai's class, wrists, timing, technique, attitude towards the game is going to go out of the window, and he's going to turn into a kitten again and probably play some hack shot against Finn or play onto his boots and get caught in the slip.

That has been the story of his ODI career. Can hardly recall more than 4/5 of his 19 ODI hundreds.

You are really talking about a very hurt man.

Lets hope India win the match for you to calm down and then talk.

Talk about a pressure ODI game against the lankan and Dhoni.
Here you have one :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/247476.html

Or it wasn't important because it was played on a 23rd march? Or Because bla bla bla...

 

[Electron]

Hashim Amla : Can he handle pace and bounce?

I have seen Amla bhai score heavily against visiting Lankan/Indian/WI/Zimbabwe attacks, but below is a stat that caught my eye. Inspired by another thread, I decided to take a look at what Amla bhai has done against the best attack he can face in ODI Cricket (in conditions favoring pace and bounce).

The results were shocking! Amla bhai's stats take a nosedive.

Spoiler

------------------


Let us forget pace and bounce for a second. I asked myself another question. "How good is he against half-decent bowling attacks irrespective of conditions?" I looked that up, and unsurprisingly, Amla bhai proved to be a mediocre batsman even in this batting friendly era.

Career record in South Africa against top-4 bowling attacks he can face ( Australia, NZ, England, Pakistan) :

Avg : 37
SR : 78

Spoiler

------------------


To conclude, I just want to say that I was shocked at how mediocre Amla has been against half-decent attacks( not just in testing conditions, but overall too).

There was a reason people refused to count him among the best ODI batsmen, and looking at the numbers above, I can see why. He is lucky not to face the best attack in South Africa, or the legend of Amla would probably not even exist today.

PS- Sorry about the heartaches caused.

 

[Sandeep]

Lol.. He can. The best batsman of this era.. ok. After abd

 

[Electron]

Lol.. He can. The best batsman of this era.. ok. After abd

Best batsman against pop-gun attacks imo.

 

[Mobashir]

Let us forget pace and bounce for a second. I asked myself another question. "How good is he against half-decent bowling attacks irrespective of conditions?"

Irrespective of conditions? Then why we just have "home venues"? It's not good lying.

But as you say, these sats may be the reason why, despite scoring so many runs, he is counted behind ABDV as an ODI batsman by everyone.

 

[Aman]

Most of today's batsmen barring probably AB and Sanga are FTB's or weak bowling bullies.

 

[Aman]

Best batsman against pop-gun attacks imo.

Kohli is proving to be quite the FTB tbh.

 

[Mamoon]

Where are Amla bhai's knocks equivalent to the World Cup final, 183* while chasing 300, 113*, taking his team from 29-5 to a respectable total when the ball was swinging miles, 95 when the team is 5 out for less than 100 and then has a partnership of over 80 runs with a number 10, including the numerous other chases he has pulled off from 50-50 situations, including scoring 10+ runs in the last over multiple times.

I've yet to see Amla bhai play such knocks, and I value these type of performances - not truckload of runs with zero scoreboard pressure. Sure he has played a few, but largely he hasn't to deal with any real pressure in ODI cricket so far and when he has, he has failed.

Clearly a player who thrives on scoring soft runs, and a great run scorer rather than a scorer of great runs but even if he fails in the 2015 World Cup and doesn't help South Africa win a knockout, people will stake make excuses for him and then start threads as soon as he starts performing when the pressure is off.

Before the discussion diverts back to Kohli, he is not an ODI legend yet either, because he will have to do it for India at the World Cup. He has 2015 and 2019 to go, and if he fails in these two editions, he'll simply be an Indian great but not a legend by any means. So far, he's ahead of Amla bhai because he has shown ability to absorb pressure in the other ICC events he has played in the last couple of years.

Amla bhai is a South African great and one of the best opener ever, but to become a true legend that someone people are claiming him to be, he will have to win at least one knockout for South Africa (that's not too much to ask for, is it?) because so far he has been laying eggs only when the heat is on.

 

[OZGOD]

Well he plays in South Africa you'd hope so.

Then again this did happen to him over there:

[utube]nKCWg76wJAk[/utube]

 

[Electron]

Irrespective of conditions? Then why we just have "home venues"? It's not good lying.

But as you say, these sats may be the reason why, despite scoring so many runs, he is counted behind ABDV as an ODI batsman by everyone.

I am sorry about that confusion, Sadly, I cannot edit my post.

But in conditions supporting pace and bounce, he is a totally different batsman.

 

[Mamoon]

Forget Lanka,

Can't back Amla bhai to win a high pressure match even against Afghanistan.

He simply has no mettle. Its okay if he doesn't, not a big deal, but giving him legendary status because of the same FTB bullying that others are slated for is simply hilarious.


Just like all other players, he either feasts on mediocre attacks, or good attacks on flat decks.

 

[manick badsha]

Bhai is greatet ftb or weak attack bully in the league of inzi,anwar.younus,sanga,jayasuria

 

[aukhan]

Forget Lanka,

Can't back Amla bhai to win a high pressure match even against Afghanistan.

He simply has no mettle. Its okay if he doesn't, not a big deal, but giving him legendary status because of the same FTB bullying that others are slated for is simply hilarious.


Just like all other players, he either feasts on mediocre attacks, or good attacks on flat decks.

Couldn't agree more with you.

AB Devilliers is the best batsman followed by Kohli and Williamson according to my view.

 

[hussain123]

He did struggle against johnson in that test series which sa lost at home.However, unlike kohi (with due respect), even in bad phases he keeps on contributing to the team score.

 

[Mobashir]

Where are Amla bhai's knocks equivalent to the World Cup final, 183* while chasing 300, 113*, taking his team from 29-5 to a respectable total when the ball was swinging miles, 95 when the team is 5 out for less than 100 and then has a partnership of over 80 runs with a number 10, including the numerous other chases he has pulled off from 50-50 situations, including scoring 10+ runs in the last over multiple times.

The ball was not swinging miles, it wasn't even swinging half an inch when Dhoni came in to bat.
He did a Misbah with a little better finish. Scored runs, but were never going to be enough even against the poor Pakistan batting line up.

That 95, again was a good innings like Misbah, but not his fault. It's just that his 95 was never going help the team winning or be competitive on a flat track like this and giving his team a total of 180 chased in 34 overs by the poor west Indians.

If you want to play rescue innings, do it like Afridi, not just rescue the team to post a better looking loosing total, but a winning total. Like his two 75's, against Lankans and West Indies.

 

[Mamoon]

Let's wait for the World Cup to end, shall we?

We will bring this up then, because its a moot exercise now. No matter what you throw at me or what I throw at you, we are not gonna budge,

but this World Cup will make everything clear:

a) If he delivers in knockouts and produces a masterclass with the bat against quality teams like he always does, it will end the discussion of him being a bottler.

Its okay if he does it on 'flat' pitches, because its 'flat' when Indian batsmen score only, but lets not go there, I'll let that one go

b) If he fails, no excuse will be good enough. He's on the top of his game and in devastating form. Most teams have weak bowling attacks and he also has the luxury of playing for arguably the strongest one

Its okay never has to face South African attack against whom others are judged, Kohli/Dhoni never get to face Indian 'trundlers', but against the same 'trundlers' when Amla bhai does well, its becomes a masterclass

Lets wait and watch, time will tell.

I'm putting money on another unconvincing outing for Amla bhai on the global stage.

 

[Scrolln]

Well he plays in South Africa you'd hope so.

Then again this did happen to him over there:

[utube]nKCWg76wJAk[/utube]

That almost knocked the beard off his face.

Amla and Kohli are extremely lucky to be feasting in an era of mediocre bowling, you simply cannot deny this. You would struggle to name ONE ATG ODI bowler in the world today, whereas just 15-20 years back you could name ten.

ABDV is on a different level to them and is the Viv Richards of this generation. The best batsman in the world.

 

[Mobashir]

Couldn't agree more with you.

AB Devilliers is the best batsman followed by Kohli and Williamson according to my view.

Yes, and these three are followed by Rahane, Dhoni and Root.

Then we have Raina, Samuels and Murli Vijay (indian batting so strong that ha can't make the eleven).

Obviously, Kohli and Williamson are better than Sanga :face palm

 

[Mamoon]

Edit:

We will bring this up then, because its a moot exercise now. No matter what you throw at me or what I throw at you, we are not gonna budge,

but this World Cup will make everything clear:

a) If he delivers in knockouts and produces a masterclass with the bat against quality teams like he always does, it will end the discussion of him being a bottler.

Its okay if he does it on 'flat' pitches, because its 'flat' when Indian batsmen score only, but lets not go there, I'll let that one go

b) If he fails, no excuse will be good enough. He's on the top of his game and in devastating form. Most teams have weak bowling attacks and he also has the luxury of playing for arguably the strongest one

Its okay, he has the luxury of never having to has to face South African attack against whom others are judged, Kohli/Dhoni never get to face Indian 'trundlers', but against the same 'trundlers' when Amla bhai does well, its becomes a masterclass

Lets wait and watch, time will tell.

I'm putting money on another unconvincing outing for Amla bhai on the global stage.

 

[Mamoon]

Moral of the story is:


- No big deal he scored in the World Cup final, pitch was easy, ball wasn't doing much, bowlers were mediocre, Gambhir did the hard work etc etc.

- Scores 113 against Pakistan and rescues then from 29-5, but ball 'wasn't doing anything' when he came. LOL, No one was able to put bat on ball but as soon as he came, it stopped swinging and seaming.. Must say he has some special powers to make the ball stop talking at will.

- Afridi has played better rescue innings than Dhoni, his two 75s are better than Dhoni's 91* in the World Cup Final and 113* vs. Pakistan.