Hashim Amla | The Mega Discussion Thread

[soso_killer]

Lol.. He can. The best batsman of this era.. ok. After abd

How has AB opening against these attacks?
There is a reason why its not easy to open on a consistent bases in SA.

G. Smith for example an ATG in all accounts in tests has plenty of 20's and 30's against solid and mediocre attacks at home.
Away he averages 40+ against everyone in SA colours bar India.

ODI's are not too different when it comes to opening in these conditions especially early on.
Another factor is was the game a day game or a day night game?

In SA all our test venues average around 26-29 runs per wicket in ODI's during a day night game.
So is an average of 37 a failure? I don't think so.

 

[Bullet Drive]

No mention of how he played Irfan here?

 

[Strike Rate]

So you are blaming me for being biased, but you yourself are heavily blinded by love and bias for Amla bhai?

And that has been my point for years now but you lived in denial.

At least now you're admitting it yourself that are biased.

Good.

stop your habit of trying to put your words in others mouth i have seen enough of both kohli and amla to judge who is better against swing pace bounce and spin and that was the question in OP

 

[GreenKnightRises]

No one is calling him poor. Just bringing forward a weakness that not many thought existed. Don't tell me you are not surprised.

If I am to get surprised by those given stats in the OP, I should be shocked everytime Team Pakistan plays

 

[justarslan]

I have seen Amla bhai score heavily against visiting Lankan/Indian/WI/Zimbabwe attacks, but below is a stat that caught my eye. Inspired by another thread, I decided to take a look at what Amla bhai has done against the best attack he can face in ODI Cricket (in conditions favoring pace and bounce).

The results were shocking! Amla bhai's stats take a nosedive.

Spoiler

View attachment 53650

------------------


Let us forget pace and bounce for a second. I asked myself another question. "How good is he against half-decent bowling attacks irrespective of conditions?" I looked that up, and unsurprisingly, Amla bhai proved to be a mediocre batsman even in this batting friendly era.

Career record in South Africa against top-4 bowling attacks he can face ( Australia, NZ, England, Pakistan) :

Avg : 37
SR : 78

Spoiler

View attachment 53655

------------------


To conclude, I just want to say that I was shocked at how mediocre Amla has been against half-decent attacks( not just in testing conditions, but overall too).

There was a reason people refused to count him among the best ODI batsmen, and looking at the numbers above, I can see why. He is lucky not to face the best attack in South Africa, or the legend of Amla would probably not even exist today.

PS- Sorry about the heartaches caused.

Still better record than your Angry One.

 

[Electron]

How has AB opening against these attacks?
There is a reason why its not easy to open on a consistent bases in SA.


In SA all our test venues average around 26-29 runs per wicket in ODI's during a day night game.
So is an average of 37 a failure? I don't think so.

Not just in South Africa, but his record in Australia too is similar. Average sees a sharp dip, and SR comes down to mid-70s.

As for your point about South African conditions, Amla has scored runs like a boss against Windies/India/Zimbabwe/Bangladesh in similar conditions. But when it comes to NZ, Australia, England and Pak attacks, average falls down to mid 30s and SR falls down to 77.

No one is calling him poor or failure. I am just discussing the nature of struggle, which seems to be quite a fall from what he does otherwise.

 

[Mamoon]

stop your habit of trying to put your words in others mouth i have seen enough of both kohli and amla to judge who is better against swing pace bounce and spin and that was the question in OP

No, the question in the OP was that why Amla bhai's average and strike rate drops when facing good bowlers in good conditions, and that too when he doesn't even get to face South Africa.

Why don't you shed some light on that without diverting the attention to Test cricket which has nothing to do with it?

 

[Electron]

As my boi Mobashir would say; BUT BUT BUT, all the runs Kohli scored was because those wickets in AUS, NZ & SA were flat ...

Sadly, that's the way it goes around here.

Kohli's skills against pace and bounce are judged based on ODIs (Tests don't count), whereas in Amla case, its only Tests that count because they are supposed to be the biggest Test.

 

[manick badsha]

Lol amla brigades double standards exposed badly here.

 

[Mamoon]

A bad day at the office for Amla bhai Fan Club.

 

[soso_killer]

I have yet to see this..

Then you are yet to see SA play a game of cricket. Give yourself a chance from time to time.

 

[IndianWillow]

Well one thing is clear. You can be good against pace/bounce in tests and not be good against pace/bounce in ODIs, and vice versa. ODIs bring some additional pressure compared to tests because you cannot fight your way out of difficulty or poor form through grit. The need to score quickly is what makes ODIs almost as challenging as tests, when the batting conditions are not favourable.

 

[manick badsha]

Bhai brigade gone underground

 

[soso_killer]

Not just in South Africa, but his record in Australia too is similar. Average sees a sharp dip, and SR comes down to mid-70s.

As for your point about South African conditions, Amla has scored runs like a boss against Windies/India/Zimbabwe/Bangladesh in similar conditions. But when it comes to NZ, Australia, England and Pak attacks, average falls down to mid 30s and SR falls down to 77.

No one is calling him poor or failure. I am just discussing the nature of struggle, which seems to be quite a fall from what he does otherwise.

But my question Is how has everyone else done in SA conditions against these attacks?
Can you list a record of opening batsmen in SA against these teams?
So we can compare what is failure and what is not.
How did that affect their averages and S.R compared to their overall career stats?

Yes he failed in Australia in November and poor form can't be an excuse as he was scoring hundreds in NZ a few games prior.
Everywhere else he has done well though, even against good attacks.

 

[IndianWillow]

But my question Is how has everyone else done in SA conditions against these attacks?
Can you list a record of opening batsmen in SA against these teams?
So we can compare what is failure and what is not.
How did that affect their averages and S.R compared to their overall career stats?

Yes he failed in Australia in November and poor form can't be an excuse as he was scoring hundreds in NZ a few games prior.
Everywhere else he has done well though, even against good attacks.

Sample size for this stat will be very low. How often do visiting batsmen in SA get to face top non SA teams? If we limit ourselves to a minimum of 5 ODI matches, then the following batsmen have done well in SA against NZ, Australia, England and Pak attacks.

Tilakaratne averages 87@ 69
Dravid averages 71 @ 67
Ranatunga averages 68 @ 97
Lara averages 51 @ 88
....
....
Amla averages 37 @ 78

Amla may be one of the best SA batsmen, but Amla's superiority in SA over many other visiting batsmen is because he does not have to face SA bowlers.

 

[bill_123]

So we r doing selective analysis. sure thats fine. lets take a broader view now

let us also put the god himself and the angry heir to his throne to the test


Now the god himself has this to show for




now lets look at the angry heir



now lets look at amla at home against major countries
now for others we did not look home stats but i understand amla is from sa and sa is an important place to look at to judge a player
but we go completely selective on him. we look at him at home against select countries since we found his numbers to be lower there

why not look in this manner. him home



now i know we still wanna continue with why dint he perform against those big attacks at home etc etc

so why not look at his way record as well



either way no matter how mediocre u think his number look or w.e it is he still looks better than sachin and kohli to me

 

[Electron]

But my question Is how has everyone else done in SA conditions against these attacks?
Can you list a record of opening batsmen in SA against these teams?
So we can compare what is failure and what is not.

Firstly, most visiting openers hardly ever face those attacks. 80% of the times, they face a vastly superior South African attack.

As for your query -

Watson, Lara, Brendon Taylor, Chanderpaul, NC Jhonson, Amir Sohail, N.Knight< Ahmed Shehzad, Atapattu, Haddin, Steven Fleming, Ganguly, Dilshan etc have done a lot better. (What makes it even better that all these batsmen faced ATG South African attack).

 

[Electron]

^^ There are others like Graeme Smith, some Hudon guy, Katich etc.. the list is too long. Here's the link.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...batting_average;template=results;type=batting

 

[soso_killer]

Sample size for this stat will be very low. How often do visiting batsmen in SA get to face top non SA teams? If we limit ourselves to a minimum of 5 ODI matches, then the following batsmen have done well in SA against NZ, Australia, England and Pak attacks.

Tilakaratne averages 87@ 69
Dravid averages 71 @ 67
Ranatunga averages 68 @ 97
Lara averages 51 @ 88
....
....
Amla averages 37 @ 78

Amla may be one of the best SA batsmen, but Amla's superiority in SA over many other visiting batsmen is because he does not have to face SA bowlers.

Interesting stats isn't it?
So no one has really dominated the bowlers. A strike rate of 60 is hardly anything.
Ironically Amla has a superior strike rate having played a decent amount of games, and he gets accused of being an accumulator.
I will study the numbers further before posting .

 

[Electron]

either way no matter how mediocre u think his number look or w.e it is he still looks better than sachin and kohli to me

Amla is right up there with the best playing swing. Even with bounce and all, he has a better record than Kohli in ODIs, I accept that.

Kohli being trash is still no excuse not to discuss Amla's weakness, isn't it ?

 

[Electron]

Interesting stats isn't it?
So no one has really dominated the bowlers. A strike rate of 60 is hardly anything.
Ironically Amla has a superior strike rate having played a decent amount of games, and he gets accused of being an accumulator.
I will study the numbers further before posting .

Why pick the guy with lowest SR? Here's a more complete picture. Amla's SR seems to be stuck in 1990s, even though he doesn't face South African bowlers and has been playing there all his life.

 

[bill_123]

Amla is right up there with the best playing swing. Even with bounce and all, he has a better record than Kohli in ODIs, I accept that.

Kohli being trash is still no excuse not to discuss Amla's weakness, isn't it ?

who claimed him to the best against everything?

amla has his weaknesses just like every other bat, but he is better all round than most batsmen that played this game in the last decade or more.

i consider abd to be the best odi bat in the world and amla second. in tests amla is best and abd prolly the second best

he did fail in a way last tour to aus. and no excuses there. he did not perform upto his potential. but he still looks better than even some legends overall. and not only this he plays well in spin friendly tracks as well.

he averages 45 in sa against major nations for crying out loud which for me is MORE THAN GOOD ENOUGH.

now has amla delivered in knock out matches?...NOT YET... has he choked?... NO...I have not seen him choking... and i wont even talk about how he was unlucky in 2011... will just accept the fact and the fact is ABD AMLA AND KOHLI HAVE STILL NOT DONE ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL IN WC KNOCKOUTS

 

[Electron]

So even in SOuth African conditions, even our Asian batsmen have outperformed Amla when it comes to facing half decent attacks.

What makes it even more impressive is that most of the batsmen(from 90s) in above list faced South African bowlers to score those runs and still come out on top.

 

[Electron]

who claimed him to the best against everything?

amla has his weaknesses just like every other bat, but he is better all round than most batsmen that played this game in the last decade or more.

Yes, and I am bringing one up that many didn't think existed. Worth a discussion imo.

 

[bill_123]

sure man no issues with the thread

i posted my reply...opinions differ...

 

[Tec15]

Amla bhai boosted his average by scoring a hundred against Netherlands and half century against Bangladesh.

Kohli also didn't do well, and boosted his average by a 100 against Bangladesh.

Kohli was half the player back then, and has come a long way since. Since then, he has done very well in ICC events.

Amla bhai was world class back then and still is world class, but he has been failing in every ICC event since.

Spot the difference? If no, reread.

Also that 61 he scored against India chasing 297 to win in a pressure cooker environment. Funny how you don't mention that considering your constant "But Amla will be useless in chasing 300 run totals in pressure matches unlike Kohli" refrain. Also good job mentioning "ICC events" as if how Amla does in T20's is of any relevance.

Lame rationalization btw. Kohli was pretty much the same player. But go ahead and make excuses for his failures at home and in knockout games.

 

[Bilal7]

[MENTION=135445]Strike Rate[/MENTION] and [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] are nowhere to be found.

But lets divert the attention back to Kohli, Dhoni and . . . . . Ashwin's chucking.

Pardon for not spending my entire life on PP like some people.

Amla is a brilliant ODI bat but will never be rated amongst the greatest unless he performs in knockout games and pressure situations.

He has time to prove himself in that regard though.

He does. Although we don't have any proof to call him a choker in such situations either. Its a blank slate with him in regards to these situations.

Unnecessary stats.

See the performance of players in Aus/SA facing Aus/SA in ODIs post 2000.

View attachment 53656

Then this makes SRT, Dhoni, Lara and Jayasuriya mediocre ODI batsmen.

See...at the end of the day, in ODI (UNLIKE TESTS) ALL THESE STATS ARE NOT WHAT MATTERS.

1. What matters is how you perform in WCs.
2. What matters is how you perform in knockout games
3. What matters is how you perform in pressure situations
4. What matters is how you perform when setting target/chasing them (chasing is greater than setting but latter is imp too)

Doesn't Anwar avg 20s outside Asia in ODI?

It doesn't matter.

He was a brilliant ODI player.

Thanks for this, SIF. Glad to see the butt-hurtness regarding Amla and ABD only runs through a small minority of Indian fans.

OP was so engrossed at making Amla look bad that he never considered if this argument could blow up in his face. Let us look at how another of Amla's contemporaries has done in these two countries:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=2;host=3;opposition=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Kohli averages a measly 28 at a SR of 75 in these countries with 0 hundreds, against the home team. Looking at this and the bigger list that SIF posted, showing the greatest ODI batsman of all time, Sachin Tendulker being mediocre and another contemporary of Amla's, Dhoni being poor as well makes me believe that this supposed weakness is overblown.

Amla has been poor by his standards against Australia but every batsman had a bogey team and he can also be afforded one I think.

 

[Bilal7]

It is absolutely hilarious to judge an opener on how many games he has finished off for his team. How many games did Sachin finish off for India? I always hear people saying that Sachin would more than pull his weight during run-chases during the 90's but his pathetic team-mates would throw it away. Would the people criticizing Amla for not batting the entire fifty overs and taking his team over the line also say the same about Sachin Tendulker?

In the same vein, we could ask how many centuries Dhoni has scored in comparison to Amla and how many runs he contributes to his team in each innings. He would be utterly outclassed in these departments because just like an opener cdoes not have the opportunities to finish off games, a finisher does not get too much time in the middle.

To compare them, you have to see how they are doing in respect to others in their field and no one will argue the fact of Amla being the best opener today. Dhoni, in his prime was also the best finisher in the world which is why both would make my all-time ODI XI.

 

[Bilal7]

Once again, Amla has played ONE ODI WC KO. He has played two T20 WC KOs. Has not choked in any single one of these. Dhoni has failed in many more KO games than he has. One innings does not wipe everything away.

 

[ikram17]

Fun to see the usual buddies rejoicing in this thread :YK

Amla's success must truly get under some people's skin if they get so excited over the fact that he averages a very respectable 35-38 at a SR over 75 in certain conditions vs certain teams. These numbers alone would get him into the starting line up of most international teams

These guys can't accept a couple of facts:

Average of 56 SR 90 over 100 innings. Easily the best every for an opener and best over all as well beating Bevan, Dhoni, AB and Kohli.
Best ever 100 to innings ratio and innings/50 ratio as well.
Destroying the fastest to 2k 3k 4k 5k and soon 6k runs.

However, let's continue mentioning some nit picky stats (which are decent for 90% of batsmen) and that one knockout match 4 years ago to make us feel better

 

[IndianWillow]

Interesting stats isn't it?
So no one has really dominated the bowlers. A strike rate of 60 is hardly anything.
Ironically Amla has a superior strike rate having played a decent amount of games, and he gets accused of being an accumulator.
I will study the numbers further before posting .

70 was a decent strike rate back then, esp for the middle order bats.

 

[ikram17]

Obviously a meaningless match which doesn't count. Not like *that* Pakistan South Africa game which was obviously the most important match in the history of the Universe.

) thanks for the laugh.

 

[Bilal7]

Plus, he has scored a run a ball 196 against Australia with an attack containing both the Mitchells in Perth so it can't be claimed that he has a weakness against pace and bounce per say. If he had been failing against one type of bowling in every country, in every format and in every situation, then you could say that he has a weakness.

 

[soso_killer]

^^ There are others like Graeme Smith, some Hudon guy, Katich etc.. the list is too long. Here's the link.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...batting_average;template=results;type=batting

The sample size is to small, so I decided to cut the data.
I wanted 10 matches as that covers two tours and takes consistency into account (8 matches minimum, 4 each).
Or 5 against SA and 5 against others as well (we had the WC and the CT in 03 & 09).

The problem with 5 matches it takes nothing into account. Here is an example, say a player scores 100, 20, 20, 20, 20. From that data you still come away with a pretty average 40. The data also does not illustrate were you got that hundred as well. For example Cape Town and Durban are low scoring venues in SA.

For example Chanderpaul has 150 and that was scored in Buffalo Park hardly, our traditional venue. They played there as they aren't a main attraction . So you can't tell me that was a bouncy surface.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

Anyone with significant matches averages around the early 40's. Amla is 37 in 17 matches hardly a failure.

Some legends average worse, Tendulkar, Hayden, Gilchrist come to mind. Gibbs a well.

 

[soso_killer]

AB averages 36 in 12 matches @SR 78

 

[Electron]

The sample size is to small, so I decided to cut the data.
I wanted 10 matches as that covers two tours and takes consistency into account (8 matches minimum, 4 each).
Or 5 against SA and 5 against others as well (we had the WC and the CT in 03 & 09).


For example Chanderpaul has 150 and that was scored in Buffalo Park hardly, our traditional venue. They played there as they aren't a main attraction . So you can't tell me that was a bouncy surface.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

For what you demanded, this is the best one could find. Not many players would play as many matches as Amla throughout their careers in South Africa. 6-7 match samples are used to term Kohli a hack in a lot of countries, so I don't know how stats below are any different.

Players have scored runs as openers in SOuth Africa, and it becomes quite clear from stats below.

 

[Electron]

AB averages 36 in 12 matches @SR 78

From 2005 to 2007, AB wasn't the same batsman. All those matches were played at that time.

 

[Electron]

Plus, he has scored a run a ball 196 against Australia with an attack containing both the Mitchells in Perth so it can't be claimed that he has a weakness against pace and bounce per say. If he had been failing against one type of bowling in every country, in every format and in every situation, then you could say that he has a weakness.

Please don't mix Tests and ODIs. I am talking about ODI struggles.

 

[soso_killer]

From 2005 to 2007, AB wasn't the same batsman. All those matches were played at that time.

AB does have some issues with the new ball to this day.
The ball was swinging miles in PE vs the Windies and AB got out to a very good one.
Amla would have done better as he has a much tighter technique defence wise.

But if he played that match and scored a hundred people would have labelled the pitch flat. That's how good this guy is.

 

[Buffet]

6-7 match samples are used to term Kohli a hack in a lot of countries, so I don't know how stats below are any different.

People ,who use those stats to conclude that Kohli is a hack, don't really understand cricket. It's meaningless to argue non-stop with them about it once you know that they don't understand cricket.

Now about this Amla in Aus/SA against better pace attacks. Well, is it a big surprise that a batsman is doing worse than his career average against better bowling units in bouncy conditions? Is it unexpected that a batsman will score more against weaker bowling attack. He is just following the expected line here.

This stat is not at the same level in cherry picking as SRT in SA against SA but we are reading too much here. Amla can play in all conditions. Yes, just like other players, he will have better stats in some conditions and worse stats in some conditions.

We are reading too much into these stats. Let's see how batsmen do in the WC. Doing well in the WC matters way more than all these stats. Amla/AB are in gun form right now so there is no excuse to not do well in the WC. Let's judge Amla after the WC as far as batting in Aus in shorter formats is concerned.

 

[Electron]

People ,who use those stats to conclude that Kohli is a hack, don't really understand cricket. It's meaningless to argue non-stop with them about it once you know that they don't understand cricket.

Now about this Amla in Aus/SA against better pace attacks. Well, is it a big surprise that a batsman is doing worse than his career average against better bowling units in bouncy conditions? Is it unexpected that a batsman will score more against weaker bowling attack. He is just following the expected line here.

This stat is not at the same level in cherry picking as SRT in SA against SA but we are reading too much here. Amla can play in all conditions. Yes, just like other players, he will have better stats in some conditions and worse stats in some conditions.

We are reading too much into these stats. Let's see how batsmen do in the WC. Doing well in the WC matters way more than all these stats. Amla/AB are in gun form right now so there is no excuse to not do well in the WC. Let's judge Amla after the WC as far as batting in Aus in shorter formats is concerned.

I like many others believed Amla's record to be AB like having all areas covered, but the level of discomfort even against half-decent attacks in fast and bouncy conditions did come as a surprise. I thought it was share-worthy.

Coming WC will have these bowling attacks coming hard at him in Aussie conditions, so yeah, lets see.

 

[Mamoon]

Also that 61 he scored against India chasing 297 to win in a pressure cooker environment. Funny how you don't mention that considering your constant "But Amla will be useless in chasing 300 run totals in pressure matches unlike Kohli" refrain. Also good job mentioning "ICC events" as if how Amla does in T20's is of any relevance.

Lame rationalization btw. Kohli was pretty much the same player. But go ahead and make excuses for his failures at home and in knockout games.

Hats off to your lofty standards. You are comparing Amla bhai's 60 while chasing 300 to various hundreds of Kohli while chasing 300. That's the x factor that Amla bhai lacks.

He's not capable of being a match winning, impact player. Just a steady accumulator.

In that chase, de Villiers turned the tables on India with his quickfire half century. Both Amla bhai and Kallis scored 60 odd runs and had a a big partnership but none grabbed the game by the scruff of its neck and saw the team home, which Kohli does time and time again.

Amla bhai is a just scorer of soft runs.

And yes, my point is about pressure runs. World T20 has more pressure than a bilateral ODI, and like Amla bhai, Kohli isn't a natural T20 player either but still he has performed for India on the big stage.

Forget T20s, what happened in the Champions Trophy 2013?

Amla bhai failed in the semifinal playing a hack shot to Finn while Kohli 43* in a rain hit, 20 over match in difficult conditions rescued the team from 60-5 to 120 odd which was a competitive total given the conditions. His partnership with Jadeja was crucial.

And no, Kohli was good in 2011 but it wasn't till that chase in the tri-series in Australia in February 2012 vs SL where he took his ODI batting to the next level. He played some outstanding knocks since then, which he hadn't around the time of the 2011 World Cup.

Kohli is a man for the big occasion and a proper big match player unlike Amla bhai.

 

[Jo_Don]

Kohli is a man for the big occasion and a proper big match player unlike Amla bhai.

Where was the angry matchwinner today?

 

[Mamoon]

Where was the angry matchwinner today?

These are just warm ups, designed for the likes of Amla bhai to boost his average before the pressure cooker games.

Expecting him to bounce back at the World Cup, with Amla bhai disappointing as usual.

 

[soso_killer]

QUOTE=Electron;7468913]For what you demanded, this is the best one could find. Not many players would play as many matches as Amla throughout their careers in South Africa. 6-7 match samples are used to term Kohli a hack in a lot of countries, so I don't know how stats below are any different.

Players have scored runs as openers in SOuth Africa, and it becomes quite clear from stats below.

View attachment 53663[/QUOTE]

What does Kohli average against these countries in SA, NZ, Eng and Aus combined?
Do the same with Amla and come up with your conclusion.

Amla is among the best players who played 10+ matches. Which is a far better sample than 4-5 matches.

 

[Bilal7]

Please don't mix Tests and ODIs. I am talking about ODI struggles.

No, you asked if Amla can handle pace and bounce and he definitely can.

From 2005 to 2007, AB wasn't the same batsman. All those matches were played at that time.

They were all the same batsman. Imran Farhat wasn't playing as ABD in disguise.

So the best ODI batsman has a comparable record to Amla in those countries but for some reason, only the latter is being picked on by Electron bhai. Can you also tell me why Virat Kohli averages 17.xx at a SR of 69.xx in those countries against the home attacks, during the last three years?

 

[Electron]

They were all the same batsman. Imran Farhat wasn't playing as ABD in disguise.

So the best ODI batsman has a comparable record to Amla in those countries but for some reason, only the latter is being picked on by Electron bhai. Can you also tell me why Virat Kohli averages 17.xx at a SR of 69.xx in those countries against the home attacks, during the last three years?

You don't even realize what the discussion was about, nor are you getting the context of AB reference.

As for Kohli's performance in similar conditions against similar attacks, well he averages 25 with a SR of 73. Clearly inferior to Amla in these conditions, and I am not denying that. But I don't understand how that is relevant to the topic I have put up.

 

[Bilal7]

You don't even realize what the discussion was about, nor are you getting the context of AB reference.

As for Kohli's performance in similar conditions against similar attacks, well he averages 25 with a SR of 73. Clearly inferior to Amla in these conditions, and I am not denying that. But I don't understand how that is relevant to the topic I have put up.

If you're in an Indian village and only know fifty or so English words and everyone else in that village knows forty words or so, will it be fair for someone to single you out and call you a jahil?

When not a single contemporary of Amla's and even several legends from the past have a comparable record to him at best, how can you single him out in this thread and claim that is a weakness of his? If that is a weakness of his, then it is a weakness of Sachin, Lara, Dhoni, ABD, Kohli, Sanga, Inzi and Hafeez as well.

You might as well start a thread talking about how Amla is weak against inswinging yorkers.

 

[Electron]

If you're in an Indian village and only know fifty or so English words and everyone else in that village knows forty words or so, will it be fair for someone to single you out and call you a jahil?

When not a single contemporary of Amla's and even several legends from the past have a comparable record to him at best, how can you single him out in this thread and claim that is a weakness of his? If that is a weakness of his, then it is a weakness of Sachin, Lara, Dhoni, ABD, Kohli, Sanga, Inzi and Hafeez as well.

You might as well start a thread talking about how Amla is weak against inswinging yorkers.

I am sorry, but Kohli and Dhoni are similar ODI greats (bigger matchwinners too), and people talk about their weaknesses all the time too. Never seen such an emotional outburst from you then.

Inzi, Kohli, Hafeez etc too have such problems in ODIs, and I don't think its unreasonable to point that out.

 

[Electron]

In Amla's case, these shortcomings are not even that exaggerated, but are strong enough to be noticed and discussed.

 

[Jo_Don]

I am sorry, but Kohli and Dhoni are similar ODI greats (bigger matchwinners too), and people talk about their weaknesses all the time too. Never seen such an emotional outburst from you then.

Inzi, Kohli, Hafeez etc too have such problems in ODIs, and I don't think its unreasonable to point that out.

I'll grant you Dhoni as a bigger matchwinner, but not Kohli. Kohli is better than Amla in the second innings, and Amla is better than Kohli in the first innings.

 

[Bilal7]

I am sorry, but Kohli and Dhoni are similar ODI greats (bigger matchwinners too), and people talk about their weaknesses all the time too. Never seen such an emotional outburst from you then.

Inzi, Kohli, Hafeez etc too have such problems in ODIs, and I don't think its unreasonable to point that out.

Try to understand my point and apply some burnol. Thanks for proving that this thread was made in vengeance for people criticising Dhoni and Kohli.

Kohli's weakness against swing is a problem because the top batsmen in the world are miles ahead of him in this regard. He can't be seen as an equal if he isn't performing on equal footing with them in all conditions. Had Amla been the only one with the poor (by his standards) record against bounce in ODIs, you would be justified in singling him out.

The criticism against Dhoni is coming mostly from Indian fans so you sort that out.

 

[Bilal7]

All of Amla's 19 centuries have come in victory except two. He's as good a match-winner as any.

 

[Electron]

Try to understand my point and apply some burnol. Thanks for proving that this thread was made in vengeance for people criticising Dhoni and Kohli.

Kohli's weakness against swing is a problem because the top batsmen in the world are miles ahead of him in this regard. He can't be seen as an equal if he isn't performing on equal footing with them in all conditions. Had Amla been the only one with the poor (by his standards) record against bounce in ODIs, you would be justified in singling him out.

The criticism against Dhoni is coming mostly from Indian fans so you sort that out.

And many top batsmen are far ahead of Amla bhai when it comes to playing in fast and bouncy conditions.

Try to understand brother, an observation on Amla has nothing to do with others.

 

[Electron]

All of Amla's 19 centuries have come in victory except two. He's as good a match-winner as any.

When did I say he is not? 19/21 Kohli hundreds too have come in wins (playing with Indian trundlers)...but does that make him flawless? Ofcourse not.

Ok, let me just say that Amla bhai > Kohi. Does the thread sound fair now?

 

[Bilal7]

And many top batsmen are far ahead of Amla bhai when it comes to playing in fast and bouncy conditions.

Try to understand brother, an observation on Amla has nothing to do with others.

Misbah has the best average out of any subcon batsmen outside the subcon but I won't go around saying he's better than Kohli and Dhoni because they are not comparable on an overall level. The top ODI batsmen in the world are ABD, Amla, Sanga, Kohli, Dhoni and none of these average 40+ in those countries against the home attack.

Try to understand brother, your thread has failed big time.

 

[Mamoon]

All of Amla's 19 centuries have come in victory except two. He's as good a match-winner as any.

You have to analyze the hundreds individually. Not all of them were due to him, because he is an anchor and always banks on someone else to grab the game by the scruff of its neck, namely de Villiers.

Simply looking at number of hundreds in wins doesn't reveal everything. According to stats, even Shehzad's ton vs. Bangladesh in the Asia Cup was 'match-winning', whereas in truth, he tried his utmost best to lose that game for us.

RRR was 6.2, and when he departed it was 11. Afridi's blitz made that mediocre effort into a match-winning one.

Not all of Kohli's hundreds have been match-winning either for that matter, but he's definitely a bigger match-winning impact player.

 

[Bilal7]

When did I say he is not? 19/21 Kohli hundreds too have come in wins (playing with Indian trundlers)...but does that make him flawless? Ofcourse not.

Ok, let me just say that Amla bhai > Kohi. Does the thread sound fair now?

Amla > Kohli is a fact these days so no, it doesn't really help. Kohli is an amazing player while chasing and a beast in the subcon but his struggles against swing are holding him back. You don't have to go around making silly threads just to defend him from fair criticism.

 

[Bilal7]

You have to analyze the hundreds individually. Not all of them were due to him, because he is an anchor and always banks on someone else to grab the game by the scruff of its neck, namely de Villiers.

Simply looking at number of hundreds in wins doesn't reveal everything. According to stats, even Shehzad's ton vs. Bangladesh in the Asia Cup was 'match-winning', whereas in truth, he tried his utmost best to lose that game for us.

RRR was 6.2, and when he departed it was 11. Afridi's blitz made that mediocre effort into a match-winning one.

Not all of Kohli's hundreds have been match-winning either for that matter, but he's definitely a bigger match-winning impact player.

None of those matches would have been victories had Amla not scored those tons so his team were banking on him as well. This is a team game, not an individual one and if you don't bank on your teammates, who are you going to bank on?

An opener cannot be a finisher as well and obviously the lower order will have to score runs as well.

 

[Electron]

Amla > Kohli is a fact these days so no, it doesn't really help. Kohli is an amazing player while chasing and a beast in the subcon but his struggles against swing are holding him back. You don't have to go around making silly threads just to defend him from fair criticism.

I don't see anything silly about the thread Bilal. On the contrary, this thread actually gives us an idea that even though Amla bhai is scoring heavily against West Indies, one shouldn't be surprised if Amla bhai SR touches mid-70s this World Cup.

 

[Bilal7]

I don't see anything silly about the thread Bilal. On the contrary, this thread actually gives us an idea that even though Amla bhai is scoring heavily against West Indies, one shouldn't be surprised if Amla bhai SR touches mid-70s this World Cup.

Well looking at how Bell, Moeen, Rahane and Dhawan played in the last game, run-scoring isn't exactly easy in the WC.

 

[Electron]

I actually believe that this is a very timely thread which might explain Amla Bhai's unexpected, but possible struggle in the World Cup.

 

[Electron]

Well looking at how Bell, Moeen, Rahane and Dhawan played in the last game, run-scoring isn't exactly easy in the WC.

Yes Bilal bhai, it is a good possibility. But thankfully, all the batsmen will be batting on similar pitches, so we can still get a good idea about the weight of performances.

 

[Bilal7]

Yes Bilal bhai, it is a good possibility. But thankfully, all the batsmen will be batting on similar pitches, so we can still get a good idea about the weight of performances.

I actually believe that this is a very timely thread which might explain Amla Bhai's unexpected, but possible struggle in the World Cup.

Better make one for ABD, Kohli, Dhoni and Sanga as wll. Wouldn't want people to think that you have an agenda against Amla bhai, Electron bhai.

 

[Electron]

Better make one for ABD, Kohli, Dhoni and Sanga as wll. Wouldn't want people to think that you have an agenda against Amla bhai, Electron bhai.

All of them are on auto-scrutiny. There are countless topics about them.

 

[Bilal7]

All of them are on auto-scrutiny. There are countless topics about them.

It is refreshing to see an Amla thread talking solely about cricket, so well done on that front.

 

[Electron]

It is refreshing to see an Amla thread talking solely about cricket, so well done on that front.

Thanks bhai

 

[Mamoon]

None of those matches would have been victories had Amla not scored those tons so his team were banking on him as well. This is a team game, not an individual one and if you don't bank on your teammates, who are you going to bank on?

An opener cannot be a finisher as well and obviously the lower order will have to score runs as well.

Amla bhai is a sidekick, while Kohli takes center stage and controls the match, which is why I prefer Kohli.

 

[IndianWillow]

All of Amla's 19 centuries have come in victory except two. He's as good a match-winner as any.

Same for Kohli!! And Kohli did that with bowlers inferior to the Saffers.

One thing should be kept in mind when comparing Kohli and Amla. As far as ODIs are concerned, Amla is a late bloomer, he made his ODI debut at the age of 25, after playing a lot of first class cricket and test cricket. So his skill as a batsman were considerably refined by the time he was drawn into the ODI side. Kohli, on the other hand made his ODI debut at the age of 20, five years ahead of Amla. Kohli was a newbie at that time, and he was yet to play test matches and had played less than 20 first class matches at the time he made an ODI debut.

What all this means is that Amla is at the peak of his prowess right now, at the age of 32. Kohli is only halfway through that ladder, he is just 26 years old and he will hit his peak in 4-5 years time. Kohli will leave Amla in the shade by the time he reaches his peak, because he has almost caught up with Amla even though he is five years his junior. Kohli may have as many as 40-45 ODI hundreds and innumerable match winning knocks to his name by the time he reaches Amla's current age!!

 

[Bullet Drive]

Kohli vs Amla it seems. Amla clearly the better ODI bat. Lets compare after the World Cup

 

[Anfield]

Cherry Picking at its best!

 

[Bilal7]

Same for Kohli!! And Kohli did that with bowlers inferior to the Saffers.

One thing should be kept in mind when comparing Kohli and Amla. As far as ODIs are concerned, Amla is a late bloomer, he made his ODI debut at the age of 25, after playing a lot of first class cricket and test cricket. So his skill as a batsman were considerably refined by the time he was drawn into the ODI side. Kohli, on the other hand made his ODI debut at the age of 20, five years ahead of Amla. Kohli was a newbie at that time, and he was yet to play test matches and had played less than 20 first class matches at the time he made an ODI debut.

What all this means is that Amla is at the peak of his prowess right now, at the age of 32. Kohli is only halfway through that ladder, he is just 26 years old and he will hit his peak in 4-5 years time. Kohli will leave Amla in the shade by the time he reaches his peak, because he has almost caught up with Amla even though he is five years his junior. Kohli may have as many as 40-45 ODI hundreds and innumerable match winning knocks to his name by the time he reaches Amla's current age!!

Never doubted Kohli's match-winning abilities on pitches that are batsmen friendly. Credit where its due.

The second paragraph is all speculation. Kohli might have to end his career tomorrow because of a serious injury or he might go the way of Umar Akmal or Mohammad Amir. I don't see Kohli improving as a batsman other than fixing his game out of the subcon which would bring him up to parity with Amla.

Amla bhai is a sidekick, while Kohli takes center stage and controls the match, which is why I prefer Kohli.

No he's not. Amla has the highest percentage of team runs scored for the past few years now and is the batsman who other batters play around. Even though ABD is a better batsman, Amla is arguably their most important batsman due to the fact that he scores the majority of their runs.

 

[Cricket-passion]

He faced difficulty against Irfan, no batsman likes a climbing ball

 

[Cricket-passion]

He was having difficulty facing Irfan, so must be vulnerable to bounce. He was a bunny of Irfan in that particular ODI series

 

[soso_killer]

And many top batsmen are far ahead of Amla bhai when it comes to playing in fast and bouncy conditions.

Try to understand brother, an observation on Amla has nothing to do with others.

Lol, who though?
If anyone was averaging 50 after 10 matches in SA I would understand.
All average around 42 at best only 5 basis points to Amla.

Smith averages around 39 in SA conditions, do you think he struggled against pace and bounce?
Amla is still playing and I'm sure that record will improve, he has played England and NZ and Pakistan well before.
Only Australia have had the measure of him.

And what's Amla's average against these countries home and away?

 

[soso_killer]

Same for Kohli!! And Kohli did that with bowlers inferior to the Saffers.

One thing should be kept in mind when comparing Kohli and Amla. As far as ODIs are concerned, Amla is a late bloomer, he made his ODI debut at the age of 25, after playing a lot of first class cricket and test cricket. So his skill as a batsman were considerably refined by the time he was drawn into the ODI side. Kohli, on the other hand made his ODI debut at the age of 20, five years ahead of Amla. Kohli was a newbie at that time, and he was yet to play test matches and had played less than 20 first class matches at the time he made an ODI debut.

What all this means is that Amla is at the peak of his prowess right now, at the age of 32. Kohli is only halfway through that ladder, he is just 26 years old and he will hit his peak in 4-5 years time. Kohli will leave Amla in the shade by the time he reaches his peak, because he has almost caught up with Amla even though he is five years his junior. Kohli may have as many as 40-45 ODI hundreds and innumerable match winning knocks to his name by the time he reaches Amla's current age!!

That could be the case, but that won't necessary make him better than Amla.
He has to score hundreds in vast conditions not just in India or Asia.
Amla has scored hundreds in tough conditions carrying his team at times.
Like he did in England and the UAE where he scored half of his teams runs, and score match winning hundreds.

 

[Tec15]

Forget T20s, what happened in the Champions Trophy 2013?

Yeah, what did happen? If Amla did score runs in the semis, you'd be all "Meh, batting first. Soft runs. Can he actually chase 300 runs in a pressure match? If you had to chase 320 in 40 overs you would pick "clutch" Kohli everytime, etc, etc". You'd move on to another goalpost is what I'm saying.

 

[Mamoon]

Yeah, what did happen? If Amla did score runs in the semis, you'd be all "Meh, batting first. Soft runs. Can he actually chase 300 runs in a pressure match? If you had to chase 320 in 40 overs you would pick "clutch" Kohli everytime, etc, etc". You'd move on to another goalpost is what I'm saying.

I haven't changed any goalpost.

I'm still here, arguing about the FACT that Amla bhai has been a big flop in ICC events.

The only shifting of goalposts is by you guys because you cannot defend his failures in high pressure games and divert attention to XYZ players and other irrelevant information which has nothing to do with Amla bhai.

There are no soft runs in knockouts, regardless of the conditions and whether you bat first or chase.

Let's see how he goes at the World Cup. Even his brigade isn't very confident that he'll show his class in crunch situations in this World Cup, which is the real tragedy.

 

[IndianWillow]

That could be the case, but that won't necessary make him better than Amla.
He has to score hundreds in vast conditions not just in India or Asia.
Amla has scored hundreds in tough conditions carrying his team at times.
Like he did in England and the UAE where he scored half of his teams runs, and score match winning hundreds.

That will happen. In test cricket, he is just about starting to take his game to a new level - four hundreds in a tour down under is no ordinary feat. The same thing will happen in ODIs. Most of the SC batsmen need 3-4 years to perform consistently in non SC conditions, and Kohli has just started doing this.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Also that 61 he scored against India chasing 297 to win in a pressure cooker environment. Funny how you don't mention that .

Nothing is high pressure when facing the Indian players, I am discounting the 61 he made against the Indian trundlers as it has no value..