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How can Pakistan recover from the humiliating 228-run loss against India?

D

Devadwal

Test Debutant
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Dec 15, 2020
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14,104
this wasn’t just a win over Pakistan, it was a hammering. Will psychologically damage our great rivals ahead of the World Cup.
So question is how will Pakistan recover from this humiliating loss .
 
We can't judge based on one bad game. Pakistan's bowling and batting are strong, and they will bounce back.
 
No need to read too much into this game. It was a bizzare game over 2 days with countless interruptions and we messed up big time by just thinking about rain.

This game will have no psychological impact that you speak of. If anything India wouldn't want to face Pakistan now in finals because that would just feel ominous.
 
The most worrying thing, not in any over did it seem like we are going for the win. They came out to bat to survive, and not to win and that was clear to see. Absolute lack of intent, was awful to watch.
 
Marooned said:
No need to read too much into this game. It was a bizzare game over 2 days with countless interruptions and we messed up big time by just thinking about rain.

This game will have no psychological impact that you speak of. If anything India wouldn't want to face Pakistan now in finals because that would just feel ominous.
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I know its just one game but the way Pakistan lost this match, player's are not going to forget.it was a Epic phainta
 
It was like a perfect storm to take out Pak's boat. They never appeared to belive in themselves after India posted 356. They just went through motions and hoped for the best.
 
Nado_ said:
Even if tomorrow is washout , if we beat Sri Lanka , we’re through right?
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Yes , Pakistan need to win against Sri Lanka but weather forecast is not great on that day .from now no reserve day untill the final
 
Technics 1210 said:
Same way India recovered from the CT17 and 2019 WC SF humiliation.

These things happen, no need to overthink it.
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Or like how Shaheen recovered from the pasting he received from Wade or the guilt of chickening out of a WC knockout.

Bounce-backs happen.

In fact, Pakistan just need to look at their terrible record in the World Cups vs India historically. On what basis did they even bother to turn up to face India especially during the 2010s when it became embarrassing to watch, even as an Indian fan.

But they held themselves together, didn't overthink it, and finally 30 years later they managed to beat India.
 
pillionrider said:
Or like how Shaheen recovered from the pasting he received from Wade or the guilt of chickening out of a WC knockout.

Bounce-backs happen.

In fact, Pakistan just need to look at their terrible record in the World Cups vs India historically. On what basis did they even bother to turn up to face India especially during the 2010s when it became embarrassing to watch, even as an Indian fan.

But they held themselves together, didn't overthink it, and finally 30 years later they managed to beat India.
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All PK Ind matches have the intensity of a WC and we coped fine by winning the vast majority of the matches.
 
pillionrider said:
Or like how Shaheen recovered from the pasting he received from Wade or the guilt of chickening out of a WC knockout.

Bounce-backs happen.

In fact, Pakistan just need to look at their terrible record in the World Cups vs India historically. On what basis did they even bother to turn up to face India especially during the 2010s when it became embarrassing to watch, even as an Indian fan.

But they held themselves together, didn't overthink it, and finally 30 years later they managed to beat India.
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There was also the 10 Wicket defeat humiliation Pakistan bestowed on Indian in the WT20. The Anne do series where Pakistan beat India in India 2-1 right after India had won the WC in 2011.

As for chicken out, yes agree, India chickened out of playing Pakistan in Pakistan during this Asia Cup.

Pigeon holing is never a good idea, especially when clinging to WC stats.
 
Technics 1210 said:
There was also the 10 Wicket defeat humiliation Pakistan bestowed on Indian in the WT20. The Anne do series where Pakistan beat India in India 2-1 right after India had won the WC in 2011.

As for chicken out, yes agree, India chickened out of playing Pakistan in Pakistan during this Asia Cup.

Pigeon holing is never a good idea, especially when clinging to WC stats.
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Imagine what the Indian batters would have done to pak in those conditions. It would have been carnage
 
pillionrider said:
Or like how Shaheen recovered from the pasting he received from Wade or the guilt of chickening out of a WC knockout.

Bounce-backs happen.

In fact, Pakistan just need to look at their terrible record in the World Cups vs India historically. On what basis did they even bother to turn up to face India especially during the 2010s when it became embarrassing to watch, even as an Indian fan.

But they held themselves together, didn't overthink it, and finally 30 years later they managed to beat India.
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Why just looking the 2010’s era? Let’s go further back shall we and see the head-to-head statistics?

Thats what you call embarrassing…
 
If and buts, imagine if Wasim and Waqar were still playing today, Kohli would have been their bunnies.
 
One good thing coming out of this loss is Pakistan will not go as favourites in the world cup. Will allow them to play freely.
 
SamNJ said:
One good thing coming out of this loss is Pakistan will not go as favourites in the world cup. Will allow them to play freely.
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That’s a good thing for Pak, trust me, coming in as underdogs is way better then coming in as favourites.
 
If one takes history of ODI games between these 2 teams for last 7 odd years or so, it is indicator that both teams suffer big losses in a game and recover quickly.

2015 WC Adelaide : India won by 76 runs
2017 CT league game : India won by 124 runs
2017 CT final : India lost by 180 runs
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 8 wkts
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 9 wkts
2019 WC (Manchester) : India won by 89 runs
2022 Asia Cup( SL) : Rain ..... no result
2022 Asia Cup( SL) : India won by 228 runs
Most games have been one sided wins and no close games between the teams since 2015 in ODIs
 
2019 World Cup I was there in old Trafford, after india scored 336. Pakistan reached 166/6 in 35 overs before rain stopped play, 86 runs behind par score. I left during that rain break, due to the absolute lack of intent prior to the rain. I like to see Pakistan actually trying to win a match, similarly, it’s an awful sight whatever it is we witnessed today, even worse. I still can’t get my head around what they were trying to do today dead batting so many balls.
 
One thing I never lose sleep over is how does the team recover from a heavy defeat...
 
Mickey Arthur needs to get in Babar's face and drive some ruthless truths. If there is one person who will not put up with Babar Azam's crap for long, it is Mickey Arthur.
 
Group stage doesn't matter. Final matters. We (ind) have a habit of choking these days in the knockout
 
IMMY69 said:
One thing I never lose sleep over is how does the team recover from a heavy defeat...
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it would be so difficult to get out of it, such defeats can certainly wont allow u to gain momentum again in this tournament.
 
Savak said:
Mickey Arthur needs to get in Babar's face and drive some ruthless truths. If there is one person who will not put up with Babar Azam's crap for long, it is Mickey Arthur.
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Difficult to do that over Zoom calls. Mickey is scamming Pakistan cricket by being physically present with the team for only 2-3 months per year.

He is still milking the fluke CT even though he ran Pakistan cricket into the ground after that flash in the pan victory.

Najam Sethi’s obsession with him has resulted in this disastrous arrangement.
 
Devadwal said:
this wasn’t just a win over Pakistan, it was a hammering. Will psychologically damage our great rivals ahead of the World Cup.
So question is how will Pakistan recover from this humiliating loss .
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2 day games always makes it hard. Remember even you lost to nz in 2019 world cup in a 2 day game.

Credit where credit is due. India outplayed pakistan in all facets of the game.

Rauf injury hurt us badly and also batting under lights. Would be interesting if we batted first. Could india chase 250 plus under lights vs fully fit rauf and naseem? I want to see that.
 
Mamoon said:
Difficult to do that over Zoom calls. Mickey is scamming Pakistan cricket by being physically present with the team for only 2-3 months per year.

He is still milking the fluke CT even though he ran Pakistan cricket into the ground after that flash in the pan victory.

Najam Sethi’s obsession with him has resulted in this disastrous arrangement.
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How can you say fluke mamoon when we beat all the top sides back to back?

It was 1 a piece in that tournament. I agree hasan ali got found out after that tournament. You can say our players are overrated after winning that tournament but they way we won wasn't a fluke.
 
Look , just a few days ago we were on top against India that with the wrong team combo (extra spinner) and you can say what you want but I backed pak to chase the 260 odd that day.

I will admit India 11 is stronger than ours. But the last two days we just had a really bad outing: we chose to bowl first - wrong decision , Shaheen he was bound to have an off day, he is not superman , he got too cocky and thought he call bowl magic wicket balls and run through the team and credit to the Indians they played fearlessly against him .

Naseem Shah was unlucky , want his first ball , Gill was dropped , sorry I count that as a drop! Then another drop which should have been regulation catch.

Then one of our main bowler gets injured, which allowed Kohli and kl to play their strokes and build confidence.

Then, take no credit from Bumrah he is world class, but the ball started behaving like a red duke ball in grey clouds when the 2nd innings got underway.
Then take in the fact of the stop starts and two day match. Thinking of DLS and everything aswell
Pakistan were just flat and it was a weird match all together. However I will and have to give credit to India they deserved to win, but the margin of victory I would not panic just yet.

However two main concerns are that we are lacking a wicket taking spinner and we need an explosive batsman in the middle
 
Nado_ said:
Look , just a few days ago we were on top against India that with the wrong team combo (extra spinner) and you can say what you want but I backed pak to chase the 260 odd that day.

I will admit India 11 is stronger than ours. But the last two days we just had a really bad outing: we chose to bowl first - wrong decision , Shaheen he was bound to have an off day, he is not superman , he got too cocky and thought he call bowl magic wicket balls and run through the team and credit to the Indians they played fearlessly against him .

Naseem Shah was unlucky , want his first ball , Gill was dropped , sorry I count that as a drop! Then another drop which should have been regulation catch.

Then one of our main bowler gets injured, which allowed Kohli and kl to play their strokes and build confidence.

Then, take no credit from Bumrah he is world class, but the ball started behaving like a red duke ball in grey clouds when the 2nd innings got underway.
Then take in the fact of the stop starts and two day match. Thinking of DLS and everything aswell
Pakistan were just flat and it was a weird match all together. However I will and have to give credit to India they deserved to win, but the margin of victory I would not panic just yet.

However two main concerns are that we are lacking a wicket taking spinner and we need an explosive batsman in the middle
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Panic button of Pakistan cricket has been pressed now, i dont think they could become out of this defeat so easily which will now effect your game against Srilanka which would be do or die for Pakistan.
 
Cricket Warrior said:
Panic button of Pakistan cricket has been pressed now, i dont think they could become out of this defeat so easily which will now effect your game against Srilanka which would be do or die for Pakistan.
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Well if they lose to Sri Lanka , it may force some changes , but I still back us to beat them. This Asia cup is a glorified rehearsal for the World Cup but Pakistan scared to think outside the box
 
I don’t know if it’s because it was a stop start kind of game with the rain and the reserve day, but I honestly don’t feel too humiliated by this loss compared to other times.

Rauf didn’t get to bowl his 5 overs, Naseem didn’t finish his last over, and there was insane cloud cover when we went back out to bat.
 
Nado_ said:
Look , just a few days ago we were on top against India that with the wrong team combo (extra spinner) and you can say what you want but I backed pak to chase the 260 odd that day.

I will admit India 11 is stronger than ours. But the last two days we just had a really bad outing: we chose to bowl first - wrong decision , Shaheen he was bound to have an off day, he is not superman , he got too cocky and thought he call bowl magic wicket balls and run through the team and credit to the Indians they played fearlessly against him .

Naseem Shah was unlucky , want his first ball , Gill was dropped , sorry I count that as a drop! Then another drop which should have been regulation catch.

Then one of our main bowler gets injured, which allowed Kohli and kl to play their strokes and build confidence.

Then, take no credit from Bumrah he is world class, but the ball started behaving like a red duke ball in grey clouds when the 2nd innings got underway.
Then take in the fact of the stop starts and two day match. Thinking of DLS and everything aswell
Pakistan were just flat and it was a weird match all together. However I will and have to give credit to India they deserved to win, but the margin of victory I would not panic just yet.

However two main concerns are that we are lacking a wicket taking spinner and we need an explosive batsman in the middle
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I don’t understand on here the obsession with “explosive” batters that Pakistan needs. We can’t seem to play 50 overs against a half decent side. Pakistan need a solid batter who knows how to rotate the strike in the middle like Saud Shakeel.
 
The only way to improve is to do what I have been saying since the very moment I started commenting frequently on this forumn.

Chacha, faheem, Nawaz, Shadab, Agha. These guys are all bits and pieces players and somehow faheem, Khusdil, Shan masood etc etc all these guys Keep plunging their way back into the team for no reason.

Only way pakistan are going to improve is by playing players at their genuine numbers and those players being genuine batsmen or bowlers or all rounders. Not these bits and pieces players. Idc how much people convince me with agha salman or chacha's so called 40 to 50 averages, it means nothing at this point.

You need players with great techniques and fearless approaches.

Saim ayub, Abdullah shafiq, Saud shakeel etc, all these guys are raw but they don't have any technical weaknesses, and their all fearless and play for the team. All their issues can easily be sorted. Sachin wasn't built to be an ATG in a day, neither was Ricky Pointing, or any ATG, they all struggled in the beggining.

Pakistan just bends over backwards and doesn't bother grooming players. The whole team should have consisted of rising youngsters with only babar as being our only senior. Saim, Abdullah, Saud, tayyab etc would have all become solid players by now if pakistan didn't keep choosing mawaz, shadab amd these tried and tested failures over them. These guys are all club Level players. Can bowl a bit, can bat a bit and will win you 1 in every 10 games.
 
People's are forgetting facts that this is best Pakistani playing eleven but after the match as usual players outside the eleven are match winners and important .
 
Devadwal said:
People's are forgetting facts that this is best Pakistani playing eleven but after the match as usual players outside the eleven are match winners and important .
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What’s your point? It was a big defeat, but that can happen. Just look at the Eng v NZ series, both teams have defeated eachother with big margins in same series many times. Pakistan had an off day. Next match things can change. Let’s hope for another meeting in the Finals, although it looks more like a IND v SL final due to the weather.
 
Btw OP this is a big overreaction.

Teams lose and then move on. Thats sports.
 
IAJ said:
What’s your point? It was a big defeat, but that can happen. Just look at the Eng v NZ series, both teams have defeated eachother with big margins in same series many times. Pakistan had an off day. Next match things can change. Let’s hope for another meeting in the Finals, although it looks more like a IND v SL final due to the weather.
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My point is clear just don't change players based on one game .
 
After this resounding defeat, I now have serious doubts about Babar's captaincy and the reports of his preference for his close friends over more deserving players. His choice of Nawaz over Imad Wasim, despite Nawaz's well-known struggles under pressure, raises questions. We've seen Nawaz falter even against teams like Zimbabwe.
 
Pakistan can recover by:
1. Dropping Faheem & Shadab
2. Kicking Rizwan out of number 4 spot
3. Batting first next time
 
Thrashing or not, most serious worry for Pakistan remains Babar's captaincy. Guy is just not creative and thoughtful enough to be a Leader. He just doesn't have an active sharp mind to make aggressive decision, be it with field setup, bowling change, team talk, batting approach. Don't think we will win much under his timid robotic captaincy, despite us having a really good limited over team
 
adi_62941 said:
After this resounding defeat, I now have serious doubts about Babar's captaincy and the reports of his preference for his close friends over more deserving players. His choice of Nawaz over Imad Wasim, despite Nawaz's well-known struggles under pressure, raises questions. We've seen Nawaz falter even against teams like Zimbabwe.
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Not defending Nawaz here but is Imad a wicket taking bowler? Was he ever was a wicket taking bowler in ODIs with an avg of 45? Is he the answer to our problems? Does he even have fitness to play 100 over cricket? When was the last time he played a 100 over match even in domestic?
 
Cricket Warrior said:
it would be so difficult to get out of it, such defeats can certainly wont allow u to gain momentum again in this tournament.
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There are several reasons why Pakistan are tagged as being inconsistent and mercurial...

Without going into those reasons, this tag makes me less concerned about about form. In short, anything can happen in the next two games and there is literally no point losing sleep over it.
 
Unfortunately the WC dream is dead now. The scarring from this means India, Australia and England games are guaranteed defeats. NZ and SL also might beat us. Hopefully after that we can get a new captain and Rizwan is also dispatched. Mentally this team is weaker than any we've ever had.
 
Media reports are suggesting that Pakistan team is panking after yesterday lose .Time for Babar Azam to make a statement by winning the remaining game and Asia Cup final in style .
 
Devadwal said:
Media reports are suggesting that Pakistan team is panking after yesterday lose .Time for Babar Azam to make a statement by winning the remaining game and Asia Cup final in style .
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It's one game. Anything can happen. Last time india thrashed us in 2017 too during the first encounter. We won the final. Such things happen.

We can't play old players who are past primes. Need to select wasim jnr, images wasim and nawaz then we can put up a challenge against top sides.

Only delusional fans thought we were favourites vs india. Real fans know india is a good team and games between us and india will always be intensely competitive.

After the first game which was washed out, Pakistan bowlers got really confident about their ability to dent india' top order if we were to meet again.

Wasn't the case as india made good adjustments. Now it's Pakistan's turn to counter indian top order. Don't count your chickens yet. It's not over.
 
kron said:
It's one game. Anything can happen. Last time india thrashed us in 2017 too during the first encounter. We won the final. Such things happen.

We can't play old players who are past primes. Need to select wasim jnr, images wasim and nawaz then we can put up a challenge against top sides.

Only delusional fans thought we were favourites vs india. Real fans know india is a good team and games between us and india will always be intensely competitive.

After the first game which was washed out, Pakistan bowlers got really confident about their ability to dent india' top order if we were to meet again.

Wasn't the case as india made good adjustments. Now it's Pakistan's turn to counter indian top order. Don't count your chickens yet. It's not over.
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Indeed. It is not over until its over.
 
A lot of myths have been busted in this Asia.

Myth: "Pakistan is the best ODI team"

Reality: Pakistan is an average ODI team that has only become number 1 because it has been consistently playing against under powered opposition. A full-strength India, Australia, England and NZ will comfortably beat Pakistan over a series.

Myth: "Pakistan has the best bowling attack in ODIs"

Reality: You cannot be the best bowling attack when your fast bowlers turn into kittens when attacked and your spinner won't get into the Nepal team.

Myth: "Babar is the best ODI batsman in the world"

Reality: Babar in his prime is still inferior to a 35 year old Kohli whose best is behind him. Please stop comparing two players who will never be at the same level. Kohli is one of the greatest the world has ever seen; Babar is nothing more than an excellent batsmen and we have seen dozens of batsmen of his caliber. There is no one like Kohli and never will be.

Every single Babar fan knows that for example, the knock Kohli played against Pakistan in the T20 World Cup last year at the MCG is something that Babar will never be able to reproduce in a similar situation. They know it but they won't admit it.

Babar vs KL Rahul is a more apt comparison. Two players of similar skills and abilities but with different career trajectories because they had to cope with different level of competition. KL Rahul would have been Babar if he was in Pakistan and Babar would have been KL Rahul if he was Indian.
 
Mamoon said:
A lot of myths have been busted in this Asia.

Myth: "Pakistan is the best ODI team"

Reality: Pakistan is an average ODI team that has only become number 1 because it has been consistently playing against under powered opposition. A full-strength India, Australia, England and NZ will comfortably beat Pakistan over a series.

Myth: "Pakistan has the best bowling attack in ODIs"

Reality: You cannot be the best bowling attack when your fast bowlers turn into kittens when attacked and your spinner won't get into the Nepal team.

Myth: "Babar is the best ODI batsman in the world"

Reality: Babar in his prime is still inferior to a 35 year old Kohli whose best is behind him. Please stop comparing two players who will never be at the same level. Kohli is one of the greatest the world has ever seen; Babar is nothing more than an excellent batsmen and we have seen dozens of batsmen of his caliber. There is no one like Kohli and never will be.

Every single Babar fan knows that for example, the knock Kohli played against Pakistan in the T20 World Cup last year at the MCG is something that Babar will never be able to reproduce in a similar situation. They know it but they won't admit it.

Babar vs KL Rahul is a more apt comparison. Two players of similar skills and abilities but with different career trajectories because they had to cope with different level of competition. KL Rahul would have been Babar if he was in Pakistan and Babar would have been KL Rahul if he was Indian.
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KL has a far superior 5th gear and general game sense as compared to Babar. Babar only bats, his game awareness is pretty average
 
kron said:
It's one game. Anything can happen. Last time india thrashed us in 2017 too during the first encounter. We won the final. Such things happen.

We can't play old players who are past primes. Need to select wasim jnr, images wasim and nawaz then we can put up a challenge against top sides.

Only delusional fans thought we were favourites vs india. Real fans know india is a good team and games between us and india will always be intensely competitive.

After the first game which was washed out, Pakistan bowlers got really confident about their ability to dent india' top order if we were to meet again.

Wasn't the case as india made good adjustments. Now it's Pakistan's turn to counter indian top order. Don't count your chickens yet. It's not over.
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Stopped reading after I read Nawaz name & challenge in the same sentence 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
Rana said:
KL has a far superior 5th gear and general game sense as compared to Babar. Babar only bats, his game awareness is pretty average
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KL game against spin is also far superior than Babar
 
Rana said:
KL has a far superior 5th gear and general game sense as compared to Babar. Babar only bats, his game awareness is pretty average
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Babar has his own style of game play, you cant compare him with KL, he is one of the greats of modern era who knows how to carry the game.
Multiple times he chased down the target of 200 plus in T20is also many incredible innings in ODIs too where he has proved his worth as a number 1 ODI batsman.
 
Cricket Warrior said:
Babar has his own style of game play, you cant compare him with KL, he is one of the greats of modern era who knows how to carry the game.
Multiple times he chased down the target of 200 plus in T20is also many incredible innings in ODIs too where he has proved his worth as a number 1 ODI batsman.
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If you can’t compare him to KL, then who do we compare him to?

Kohli?
Ponting?
Lara?
 
Savak said:
Mickey Arthur needs to get in Babar's face and drive some ruthless truths. If there is one person who will not put up with Babar Azam's crap for long, it is Mickey Arthur.
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Dont know.. I dont think Mickey is the type of coach..who would tell harsh truths to babar on his face…..Atleast to me …he looks he is more lovey dovey coach…from his interviews.. what i have understood….…more like the motivational coach..who would just encourage players..rathr a hard task master..which he should be……Everyone knows Mickey loves babar…and to me..even Grant bradburn seems to be soft, motivational type of coach..

I doubt any of Mickey or Grant will challenge babar..or we would have seen some tactical improvements in babar’s captaincy in ODIs..but he continues to make same mostakes in ODIs captaincy, every now and then… so it seems..no one is pointing out Babar’s captaincy flaws to him
 
Farah Sohail said:
Dont know.. I dont think Mickey is the type of coach..who would tell harsh truths to babar on his face…..Atleast to me …he looks he is more lovey dovey coach…from his interviews.. what i have understood….…more like the motivational coach..who would just encourage players..rathr a hard task master..which he should be……Everyone knows Mickey loves babar…and to me..even Grant bradburn seems to be soft, motivational type of coach..

I doubt any of Mickey or Grant will challenge babar..or we would have seen some tactical improvements in babar’s captaincy in ODIs..but he continues to make same mostakes in ODIs captaincy, every now and then… so it seems..no one is pointing out Babar’s captaincy flaws to him
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Mickey Arthur is a tough task master. Don't be fooled by his lovey interviews on Pakistan Cricket, in his previous tenure he took on the senior players like Shoaib Malik, Mohammad Hafeez, Wahab Riaz. He has only just taken charge of things, trust me he will not put up with Babar's mediocrity for very long especially not when his own job will be on the line as a result.
 
Savak said:
Mickey Arthur is a tough task master. Don't be fooled by his lovey interviews on Pakistan Cricket, in his previous tenure he took on the senior players like Shoaib Malik, Mohammad Hafeez, Wahab Riaz. He has only just taken charge of things, trust me he will not put up with Babar's mediocrity for very long especially not when his own job will be on the line as a result.
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Maybe he has softened as a person snd a coach in this tenure.. otherwise..we were playing Rizwan at no 5 against NZ…but one day Rizwan came out in the media, and said I prefer playing at 4… he was doing good at no 5… but Since that day aftr Rizwan telling his preference of batting at no 4…..we are seeing Rizwan at 4…even when we played Saud in the game against Afgh..when number 4 is natural position for Saud…
This should certainly have not happened…if Mickey was a hard task master..he should have taken Rizwan to task..rather we saw us accomodating Rizwan..
 
It is simple by taking the revange in the final of the Asia Cup against India.
Yeah i know for that first we have to win against SL :)
 
Mamoon said:
A lot of myths have been busted in this Asia.

Myth: "Pakistan is the best ODI team"

Reality: Pakistan is an average ODI team that has only become number 1 because it has been consistently playing against under powered opposition. A full-strength India, Australia, England and NZ will comfortably beat Pakistan over a series.

Myth: "Pakistan has the best bowling attack in ODIs"

Reality: You cannot be the best bowling attack when your fast bowlers turn into kittens when attacked and your spinner won't get into the Nepal team.

Myth: "Babar is the best ODI batsman in the world"

Reality: Babar in his prime is still inferior to a 35 year old Kohli whose best is behind him. Please stop comparing two players who will never be at the same level. Kohli is one of the greatest the world has ever seen; Babar is nothing more than an excellent batsmen and we have seen dozens of batsmen of his caliber. There is no one like Kohli and never will be.

Every single Babar fan knows that for example, the knock Kohli played against Pakistan in the T20 World Cup last year at the MCG is something that Babar will never be able to reproduce in a similar situation. They know it but they won't admit it.

Babar vs KL Rahul is a more apt comparison. Two players of similar skills and abilities but with different career trajectories because they had to cope with different level of competition. KL Rahul would have been Babar if he was in Pakistan and Babar would have been KL Rahul if he was Indian.
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Pakistan are comeback kings. That's how they play the tournament. In WT20 last year, they lost to India and Zimbabwe but came back fighting and beat South Africa, Netherlands and New Zealand to get into finals.
 
The loss isn't much of a big deal. Pakistan was a touch unlucky to bat in absolute bowling conditions where even Pandya was swinging the ball miles, while we batted during day time in pristine batting conditions. I don't read much in this loss.
 
Pak is always awful in rain interrupted games let alone those involving India. Injury to Haris aside, our players were simply waiting for the rain rather than properly playing the game. They were in two minds and were dumbfounded when India kept on plundering runs.

If Pak is to chase a big total, Fakhar's performance becomes extremely important (even more so than Babar's). Fakhar's ability to hit the 5th gear is pretty crucial. Let's hope Fakhar finds his form back, he shouldn't be dropped.
Saud should be brought in at no.4. Rizwan shows more urgency at 5 than he does at 4. Haris Sohail would have been an ideal option had he grabbed his opportunity earlier this year.

I am not sold on Fahim. Agha Salman has looked too timid. Dhani is a poor choice.
Bringing in Zaman Khan and Wasim could be refreshing here.

Shadab's bowling has been disappointing in ODIs this year.
 
I think Pakistan fans are overreacting. The bowling will come good in the upcoming matches. The batting in Indian subcontinet conditions should be okay. India in current form, 2017 repeat of champions trophy may not be possible with trio of bumrah,kuldeep and siraj in redhot form. 55-45 in favour of India, if its an ind vs pak final in asia cup.

In the worldcup, pak is not the host nor the overwhelming favourite . They sure can reach semis.
 
By getting rid of technically limited accumulators at thr top and bits and pieces in the middle order.

Rizwan, Agha, Fakhar, Chacha, Shadab

^^ These boys are tailenders against 1st string sides. Stat padding against 2nd string sides has polluted peoples minds.

Imam and Babar are the only players who can score against 1st string sides, but they can't dominate, they can just accumulate and reach their personal milestones. In the case of imam he can't even dominate against 2nd string sides.

Imam and Babar are extremely good accumulators, but that's about it, no one cares if these 2 perform, they ain't chasing 300+ totals unless it's a 2nd string side or a minnow. And in the context of this world cup which is 1st string, only nedtherlands and bangaldesh and Afghanistan's fast bowling department fit the bill. Kuldeep is chewing babar and spitting him out this cup.
 
heddie19 said:
Not defending Nawaz here but is Imad a wicket taking bowler? Was he ever was a wicket taking bowler in ODIs with an avg of 45? Is he the answer to our problems? Does he even have fitness to play 100 over cricket? When was the last time he played a 100 over match even in domestic?
Click to expand...
How
Mamoon said:
A lot of myths have been busted in this Asia.

Myth: "Pakistan is the best ODI team"

Reality: Pakistan is an average ODI team that has only become number 1 because it has been consistently playing against under powered opposition. A full-strength India, Australia, England and NZ will comfortably beat Pakistan over a series.

Myth: "Pakistan has the best bowling attack in ODIs"

Reality: You cannot be the best bowling attack when your fast bowlers turn into kittens when attacked and your spinner won't get into the Nepal team.

Myth: "Babar is the best ODI batsman in the world"

Reality: Babar in his prime is still inferior to a 35 year old Kohli whose best is behind him. Please stop comparing two players who will never be at the same level. Kohli is one of the greatest the world has ever seen; Babar is nothing more than an excellent batsmen and we have seen dozens of batsmen of his caliber. There is no one like Kohli and never will be.

Every single Babar fan knows that for example, the knock Kohli played against Pakistan in the T20 World Cup last year at the MCG is something that Babar will never be able to reproduce in a similar situation. They know it but they won't admit it.

Babar vs KL Rahul is a more apt comparison. Two players of similar skills and abilities but with different career trajectories because they had to cope with different level of competition. KL Rahul would have been Babar if he was in Pakistan and Babar would have been KL Rahul if he was Indian.
Click to expand...

Kohli played only one significant knock in ICC tournaments (against Pak in T20 WC), and you're going crazy about it. Everybody knows it was an astonishing performance driven by a mix of luck and extreme determination, qualities Kohli is known for. He is the greatest player of this century, but when it comes to winning tournaments or making a significant impact, he has often fallen short. This remains a significant gap in his otherwise illustrious career, a gap he may fill in upcoming World Cups.

On the other hand, comparing Babar to players like KL Rahul, Gill, or others from top-tier teams like India, Australia, or England isn't fair. Babar has been carrying the weight of the entire team because no one in Pakistan cricket comes close to matching his performance and consistency. These other players benefit from strong support within their teams and compete in more competitive cricket. (Now, don't argue that this isn't fair, as a player's responsibility is to play the matches available, and the responsibility of arranging fixtures lies with the PCB, not with Babar or Rizwan)

For
 
adi_62941 said:
How


Kohli played only one significant knock in ICC tournaments (against Pak in T20 WC), and you're going crazy about it. Everybody knows it was an astonishing performance driven by a mix of luck and extreme determination, qualities Kohli is known for. He is the greatest player of this century, but when it comes to winning tournaments or making a significant impact, he has often fallen short. This remains a significant gap in his otherwise illustrious career, a gap he may fill in upcoming World Cups.

On the other hand, comparing Babar to players like KL Rahul, Gill, or others from top-tier teams like India, Australia, or England isn't fair. Babar has been carrying the weight of the entire team because no one in Pakistan cricket comes close to matching his performance and consistency. These other players benefit from strong support within their teams and compete in more competitive cricket. (Now, don't argue that this isn't fair, as a player's responsibility is to play the matches available, and the responsibility of arranging fixtures lies with the PCB, not with Babar or Rizwan)

For
Click to expand...

Kohli played only one significant knock in ICC tournaments (against Pak in T20 WC), and you're going crazy about it. Absolutely wrong.
You should do your due diligence before spreading false information. Here is the list of ICC knock out performances of kohli
2014 t20 world cup semifinal against South Africa 72 off 44 balls
2016 t20 world cup virtual knock out(quarterfinal) against Aus 82
2016 t20 world cup final against west indies 85+ . Ashiwn bowled two no balls and india lost the final against WI
2022 t20 world cup in Australia against pakistan 82

2013 champions trophy final. rain curtailed match 43 highest score against ENG

2011 world cup final 35 . Not a match winning knock on its own but a crucial partnership with gambhir when india lost two early wickets. The same knock acknowledged by Dhoni in the post match presentaiton in 2011 world cup final


2015 semifinal.........Aus posted 328 ....Kohli failed here

2019 semi final........A close DRS LBW decision which was umpires call --- Kohli failed here.

2023 world cup----------- Knock out semis/final -------????????

He is the greatest player of this century, but when it comes to winning tournaments or making a significant impact, he has often fallen short.
Click to expand...
He has had number of clutch knocks in t20 wold cups. Winning tournaments need an element of luck and other crucial moments going teams way. 1992 pakistan needed luck of rain curtailed ENG match, 1999 Aus vs SA, it was a no ball on the last ball which ended up in a tie with AUS going to final. 2007 t20 world cup. imran nazirs run out which turned the complexion of the game. 1996 semi final IND VS SL, sachins run out changed the course of the match.

I am watching cricket since 1996. I truly believe Virat is a bigger match winner than sachin in the league of ponting/lara/inzamaam with similar clutch genie.
 
mominsaigol said:
By getting rid of technically limited accumulators at thr top and bits and pieces in the middle order.

Rizwan, Agha, Fakhar, Chacha, Shadab

^^ These boys are tailenders against 1st string sides. Stat padding against 2nd string sides has polluted peoples minds.

Imam and Babar are the only players who can score against 1st string sides, but they can't dominate, they can just accumulate and reach their personal milestones. In the case of imam he can't even dominate against 2nd string sides.

Imam and Babar are extremely good accumulators, but that's about it, no one cares if these 2 perform, they ain't chasing 300+ totals unless it's a 2nd string side or a minnow. And in the context of this world cup which is 1st string, only nedtherlands and bangaldesh and Afghanistan's fast bowling department fit the bill. Kuldeep is chewing babar and spitting him out this cup.
Click to expand...
I do agree with you that to some extent Shadab's recent form is too poor for him to be playing the next match same is the case with Fakhar. He can take the game away on his day but his recent performances are below par. Salman also needs to be replaced with a technically sound player like Saud for the next match but I don't see Rizwan going anywhere due to his exceptional keeping skills.
 
mikeypbadana86 said:
Kohli played only one significant knock in ICC tournaments (against Pak in T20 WC), and you're going crazy about it. Absolutely wrong.
You should do your due diligence before spreading false information. Here is the list of ICC knock out performances of kohli
2014 t20 world cup semifinal against South Africa 72 off 44 balls
2016 t20 world cup virtual knock out(quarterfinal) against Aus 82
2016 t20 world cup final against west indies 85+ . Ashiwn bowled two no balls and india lost the final against WI
2022 t20 world cup in Australia against pakistan 82

2013 champions trophy final. rain curtailed match 43 highest score against ENG

2011 world cup final 35 . Not a match winning knock on its own but a crucial partnership with gambhir when india lost two early wickets. The same knock acknowledged by Dhoni in the post match presentaiton in 2011 world cup final


2015 semifinal.........Aus posted 328 ....Kohli failed here

2019 semi final........A close DRS LBW decision which was umpires call --- Kohli failed here.

2023 world cup----------- Knock out semis/final -------????????


He has had number of clutch knocks in t20 wold cups. Winning tournaments need an element of luck and other crucial moments going teams way. 1992 pakistan needed luck of rain curtailed ENG match, 1999 Aus vs SA, it was a no ball on the last ball which ended up in a tie with AUS going to final. 2007 t20 world cup. imran nazirs run out which turned the complexion of the game. 1996 semi final IND VS SL, sachins run out changed the course of the match.

I am watching cricket since 1996. I truly believe Virat is a bigger match winner than sachin in the league of ponting/lara/inzamaam with similar clutch genie.
Click to expand...
Having a player of this caliber, it's surprising that we haven't seen him lead India to victory in a major tournament. Both he and Rohit are perfect examples of underperforming when it matters the most.
 
adi_62941 said:
How


Kohli played only one significant knock in ICC tournaments (against Pak in T20 WC), and you're going crazy about it. Everybody knows it was an astonishing performance driven by a mix of luck and extreme determination, qualities Kohli is known for. He is the greatest player of this century, but when it comes to winning tournaments or making a significant impact, he has often fallen short. This remains a significant gap in his otherwise illustrious career, a gap he may fill in upcoming World Cups.

On the other hand, comparing Babar to players like KL Rahul, Gill, or others from top-tier teams like India, Australia, or England isn't fair. Babar has been carrying the weight of the entire team because no one in Pakistan cricket comes close to matching his performance and consistency. These other players benefit from strong support within their teams and compete in more competitive cricket. (Now, don't argue that this isn't fair, as a player's responsibility is to play the matches available, and the responsibility of arranging fixtures lies with the PCB, not with Babar or Rizwan)

For
Click to expand...

Kohli has played more significant knocks in ICC tournaments than Babar can dream of. Yes Kohli has fallen short in ODI knockouts numerous times but that is a battle between him and his own legacy.

Babar wasn’t, isn’t and never will be at his level. He is not fit to lace his boots. Kohli belongs in the upper pantheons of batting greats, right next to Tendulkar, Sir Viv, Lara, Ponting etc. Babar is simply not in that league.

He doesn’t have the talent, the skill, the mentality, the charisma, the presence and the gravitas to be in that league but that is not his problem and not a big deal.

The problem are his deluded fans who try to portray him as someone he is not. Babar never asked to be compared to someone who is simply in a different league.

In the last 12 months, an old Kohli and a prime Babar have played three tournaments (Asia Cup 2022, T20 World Cup 2022, Asia Cup 2023) and Kohli has outclassed Babar.

Even an old, past his best Kohli is superior to a a prime Babar. I’m certain he will also outperform him in the upcoming World Cup but then the excuse will be that Kohli was playing at home, but if Babar is as good as Kohli (or better according to some special edition delusional folks), then prime Babar should be outperforming old Kohli even on Indian pitches.

Old Kohli is better than prime Babar and prime Kohli (2012-2018) was a completely different monster altogether and Pakistani fans are talking absolute nonsense by suggesting that Babar is or ever will be as good as prime Kohli.

Babar has done nothing special for Pakistan team. All this talk of him dealing with pressure and carrying the team by himself means nothing.

Babar has never carried the team on his own. He has rarely won matches for his team from precarious situations.

If you look at Kohli’s top 10 match-winning knocks, you won’t find a single knock that Babar is capable of replicating.

Furthermore, Babar has been a complete non-entity in Pakistan vs India encounter and now it is a very decent sample size.

Kohli has single-handedly defeated Pakistan more times than people can remember. He has like a dozen Man of the Match awards against Pakistan.

Babar hasn’t had 0.1% of the impact Kohli has had in Pakistan vs India encounters.

You will find players like Babar in every nook and corner of India. There is nothing that he does that they are incapable of.

He is just an excellent batsman and India have produced and continue to produce a truckload of excellent batsmen.

The difference between the two countries is the level of competition especially for top-order batsmen.

Players like Shaw can score double-hundreds in England’s domestic cricket and he is not even in contention, and the likes of Dhawan and Jaiswal are better than any ODI openers in Pakistan but they are out of the team.

It is completely futile to compare career trajectories and exposure of Pakistani and Indian batsmen because breaking into the Pakistan team - and establishing yourself - is a thousand times easier than doing the same in India.

If Babar was Indian, he would have played less than half of the matches by this point of his career and he would be far from a household name.

On the other hand, a lot of fringe Indian batsmen who are mocked by Pakistani fans right now would be superstars if they were in Pakistan.

For example, Rizwan wouldn’t play a single game across formats if Pakistan had KL Rahul, Kishan, Pant and Samson as WK options.
 
Mp812 said:
If one takes history of ODI games between these 2 teams for last 7 odd years or so, it is indicator that both teams suffer big losses in a game and recover quickly.

2015 WC Adelaide : India won by 76 runs
2017 CT league game : India won by 124 runs
2017 CT final : India lost by 180 runs
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 8 wkts
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 9 wkts
2019 WC (Manchester) : India won by 89 runs
2022 Asia Cup( SL) : Rain ..... no result
2022 Asia Cup( SL) : India won by 228 runs
Most games have been one sided wins and no close games between the teams since 2015 in ODIs
Click to expand...
Even the overall scoreline is one sided 6:1 in favor of India
 
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