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How do you rate Joe Root across all formats?

Majestic

Tape Ball Regular
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Runs
489
He has 5843 test runs in 67 tests at avg of 52.63 with 13 hundreds and 39 fifties.

In odis, he has got 4451 runs in 107 matches at an avg of 51.16 and SR of 86.89 with 11 hundreds.

Do you think he belongs to same league as Kohli, Smith and de Villiers?
 
I don't think Root is in the same league as Kohli, Smith and De Villers but he is close to getting there.
 
He will get to ABD level or even surpass him in tests.

In limited overs, he will be a very good batsmen and if he plays some clutch knocks in WC, he will be a great LOI batsmen as well. However, I dont see him matching AB or Kohli in that format.
 
Very good LO player. Needs to score in icc tournaments now.

In tests he needs to improve his conversion rate. Once he does that, he will be a great test batsmen. His problem isn't with conditions , it's him being too eager to get bat on ball.
 
good. But Need to dominate bowling attacks in every format to become great.
 
Very good LO player. Needs to score in icc tournaments now.

In tests he needs to improve his conversion rate. Once he does that, he will be a great test batsmen. His problem isn't with conditions , it's him being too eager to get bat on ball.
He has scored runs in all icc tournaments so far
 
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One of the best of our times.

Below Kohli, for obvious reasons.

That said, if he manages consistency then I expect him to be in ATG league.
 
Excellent in Tests.

Decent in LOIs.

Average at impact batting. Not as good as Kohli under pressure or impact play.

Amla - esque.

What do you think [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] ?
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], he is the test version of de Villiers and one-day version of Amla.

Wonderful stats but lacked impact. Two things you have been very critical of in last few years of your PP.

Since Joe Root has got both, will you continue to have a liking towards him?
 
Excellent in Tests.

Decent in LOIs.

Average at impact batting. Not as good as Kohli under pressure or impact play.

Amla - esque.

What do you think [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] ?

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], he is the test version of de Villiers and one-day version of Amla.

Wonderful stats but lacked impact. Two things you have been very critical of in last few years of your PP.

Since Joe Root has got both, will you continue to have a liking towards him?

I think Root is a magnificent player. Technically, he is the most complete batsman of this era, and is rarely troubled by the bowlers, the conditions and the pitch. His only weakness so far is his concentration. No bowling attack seems to be good enough to stop him from scoring runs, but he continues to find ways of getting himself out after scoring a fifty.

As an overall batsman, he is at par with Kohli and better than Smith and Williamson. However, Kohli's mental game is at a completely different level, who is one of the top five greatest batsmen in history already in my view, and his killer instinct has been the biggest factor.

Something that Root has not shown so far in his career. Nonetheless, his best years are ahead of him, and although I don't think he can catch Kohli, but he should certainly improve his conversion rate and impact factor.

As far as the comparison with Amla (LOIs) and de Villiers (Test) are concerned, he is a superior version of the former. He is in a similar mould, but he has the ability to take the game head on and he has also shown the ability to perform under pressure, although he would need to step up in the World Cup next year.

In Tests, he is similar to de Villiers at this point, i.e. he gets starts in every innings but does not make it count more often than not, but he is almost as good as him already, so it is pretty obvious that he would surpass him as a Test batsman over the next 7-8 years or so.
 
Great thread, Joe Root is one batsman who intrigues me.

A good batsman he is no doubt, but being an admirer of the very finest batsmen over the years - when I see a test batting average of 52 for Root, the following question comes to mind:-

How does Joe Root compare to some fine (but not quite the best of their eras) batsmen from 90s like Azharuddin and Aravinda De Silva?

If we simply go by statistics and batting average and probably number of test runs scored by the end of their careers, then Joe Root is a legend against these mere mortals.

But based on the cricket I've seen and having seen these batsmen in full flow against the finest bowlers around back in 90s -- Azharuddin and De Silva were far more skilful, versatile and adaptable as batsmen. They were mentally more resilient and able to cope with pressure, deliver for their teams in desperate situations against top class bowlers, and not to mention they made batting look more elegant and classy than arguably any batsmen in history.

Never mind accepting Joe Root as a better batsman than these two, I am not even convinced he is in the same class as Azharuddin and De Silva as a batsman. My own feeling is given the lack of quality fast and spin bowling in the modern era, I think if Azharuddin and De Silva were around today they would be averaging close to 60. And the scary part is that the likes of Lara and Tendulkar were superior batsmen for sure, would they be averaging mid 60s in test cricket today ? let's be honest, which modern bowler is good enough to even pose a challenge to Brian Lara -- Wahab Riaz aside :)
 
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I think Root is a magnificent player. Technically, he is the most complete batsman of this era, and is rarely troubled by the bowlers, the conditions and the pitch. His only weakness so far is his concentration. No bowling attack seems to be good enough to stop him from scoring runs, but he continues to find ways of getting himself out after scoring a fifty.

As an overall batsman, he is at par with Kohli and better than Smith and Williamson. However, Kohli's mental game is at a completely different level, who is one of the top five greatest batsmen in history already in my view, and his killer instinct has been the biggest factor.

Something that Root has not shown so far in his career. Nonetheless, his best years are ahead of him, and although I don't think he can catch Kohli, but he should certainly improve his conversion rate and impact factor.

As far as the comparison with Amla (LOIs) and de Villiers (Test) are concerned, he is a superior version of the former. He is in a similar mould, but <B>he has the ability to take the game head on and he has also shown the ability to perform under pressure,</B> although he would need to step up in the World Cup next year.

In Tests, he is similar to de Villiers at this point, i.e. he gets starts in every innings but does not make it count more often than not, but <B>he is almost as good as him already</B>, so it is pretty obvious that he would surpass him as a Test batsman over the next 7-8 years or so.

Is he? I dont think so. He couldn't contribute to that virtual knockout against Bangladesh(not a big ask) in WC 2015 where Buttler played a masterclass knock and he also couldn't take his team over the line in the CT 2017 match against Pakistan. Till now, he hasn't done much under pressure situations in bilaterals either.

And no, he isn't as good as AB in tests already either. 13 hundreds in 67 tests is similar to 22 hundreds in 114 tests and many of AB's non-hundreds were quality knocks. I cant think of the same for Root.
 
Great thread, Joe Root is one batsman who intrigues me.

A good batsman he is no doubt, but being an admirer of the very finest batsmen over the years - when I see a test batting average of 52 for Root, the following question comes to mind:-

How does Joe Root compare to some fine (but not quite the best of their eras) batsmen from 90s like Azharuddin and Aravinda De Silva?

If we simply go by statistics and batting average and probably number of test runs scored by the end of their careers, then Joe Root is a legend against these mere mortals.

But based on the cricket I've seen and having seen these batsmen in full flow against the finest bowlers around back in 90s -- Azharuddin and De Silva were far more skilful, versatile and adaptable as batsmen. They were mentally more resilient and able to cope with pressure, deliver for their teams in desperate situations against top class bowlers, and not to mention they made batting look more elegant and classy than arguably any batsmen in history.

Never mind accepting Joe Root as a better batsman than these two, I am not even convinced he is in the same class as Azharuddin and De Silva as a batsman. My own feeling is given the lack of quality fast and spin bowling in the modern era, I think if Azharuddin and De Silva were around today they would be averaging close to 60. And the scary part is that the likes of Lara and Tendulkar were superior batsmen for sure, would they be averaging mid 60s in test cricket today ? let's be honest, which modern bowler is good enough to even pose a challenge to Brian Lara -- Wahab Riaz aside :)

There is a flaw in this argument though. If we assume that batting has become easier in this era, then it means that bowling has become tougher. The conclusion that both batting and bowling have become easier is illogical.

Modern batsman are downplayed due to the following oft cited reasons: flat pitches, short boundaries, thick bats, favorable rules etc., but that means that modern bowlers have also been handicapped due to these factors, but the bowlers of previous eras had the luxury of bowling when the conditions and rules favored them.

So if we are to assume that someone like Root would average 35-40 in 80's and 90's, then if extend that logic to modern bowlers like Anderson, Steyn, Starc, Rabada, Philander, Boult etc., we should also lower their averages.

Conversely, we should also raise the bowling averages of Wasim, Marshall, Imran, Donald, Holding, Lillee, Hadlee, Roberts, McGrath etc., who did not have to deal with consistently flat pitches, big bats, short boundaries and batsmen-friendly rules.

Unfortunately, people are not willing to extend this logic to the bowlers because it contradicts their predisposed notions. They are not willing to acknowledge that if we conclude that modern batsmen are inferior to the previous batsmen due to so and so reasons, then using the same logic, the modern bowlers are also superior to the previous bowlers due to the same so and so reasons.

Azharuddin would not average 60+ in this era; he was a quality batsman, but he struggled against bounce and seam movement, which is why he failed in countries like Australia and South Africa. He would not score in those countries today against bowlers like Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins, Rabada, Steyn etc., so his average is likely to remain the same.

Apart from playing spin, he was not a better batsman than Root by any metric.

Similarly, Aravinda was one of those players who were brilliant at their best, but were not consistent enough to merit a place among the true greats. In many ways, he was an inferior version of Pietersen. He has played high class innings in every country, but he was not consistent. In Australia, England, India etc., he did nothing in his career apart from a hundred in each country.

He will not suddenly become a consistent batsman by playing in this era. The shortcomings that he had in his game - that did not allow him to score consistently - would still be exposed against bowlers like Starc, Hazlewood, Anderson, Broad, Rabada, Ashwin, Jadeja etc. etc.

Root is simply a more consistent player than both, but he loses focus and concentration after dominating the bowling for a period of time. However, he is only 27, and is yet to enter his best years as a batsman. He has shown enough in his career so far to suggest that he is a batsman of very high caliber.

Cross-era comparisons and discounting and compounding averages lead to illogical and self-contradictory assumptions. Hence, the conclusion that we can draw is that a great player will be great in any era. Azharuddin and de Silva would not struggle today, and Root and company will not struggle in the previous era. Maybe there will be a difference of +/- 5 in terms of averages, but adding +20 to the averages of Azharudding and de Silva, and concluding that they would average 60+ is surely hyperbolic.

Tendulkar averaged nearly 60 in his peak years, so if he were at his peak today, he would probably be averaging around that mark. Now as far as Lara is concerned, at his best, he was as good as any batsman to ever play the game, but he often had ugly lows. An out of form Lara was an ugly batsman, and if he were to play today, he would not always be in form, would he?
 
Is he? I dont think so. He couldn't contribute to that virtual knockout against Bangladesh(not a big ask) in WC 2015 where Buttler played a masterclass knock and he also couldn't take his team over the line in the CT 2017 match against Pakistan. Till now, he hasn't done much under pressure situations in bilaterals either.

And no, he isn't as good as AB in tests already either. 13 hundreds in 67 tests is similar to 22 hundreds in 114 tests and many of AB's non-hundreds were quality knocks. I cant think of the same for Root.


Root has not failed enough in tournaments to conclude that he fails under pressure. He has played one World Cup, and was England's best batsman. He is also a better chaser than Amla, and if he were to fail in 5-6 consecutive tournaments, we can conclude that he is a choker like Amla.

The point I am trying to make that there is not much of a difference between Root and de Villiers in Tests, and the fact that Root is yet to enter his peak years while de Villiers is almost done, it is pretty obvious that he will surpass him as a Test batsman. We should also not forget that Root has had to shoulder a lot more responsibility than a young de Villiers, who was shielded by the likes of Smith, Kallis and Amla.

Root's rise has pretty much coincided with the decline of Cook, and England have not produced a consistent specialist batsman for a few years now. At times, Root has been a one man army for England.
 
Modern batsman are downplayed due to the following oft cited reasons: flat pitches, short boundaries, thick bats, favorable rules etc., but that means that modern bowlers have also been handicapped due to these factors, but the bowlers of previous eras had the luxury of bowling when the conditions and rules favored them.

So if we are to assume that someone like Root would average 35-40 in 80's and 90's, then if extend that logic to modern bowlers like Anderson, Steyn, Starc, Rabada, Philander, Boult etc., we should also lower their averages.

Conversely, we should also raise the bowling averages of Wasim, Marshall, Imran, Donald, Holding, Lillee, Hadlee, Roberts, McGrath etc., who did not have to deal with consistently flat pitches, big bats, short boundaries and batsmen-friendly rules.

Unfortunately, people are not willing to extend this logic to the bowlers because it contradicts their predisposed notions. They are not willing to acknowledge that if we conclude that modern batsmen are inferior to the previous batsmen due to so and so reasons, then using the same logic, the modern bowlers are also superior to the previous bowlers due to the same so and so reasons.

Azharuddin would not average 60+ in this era; he was a quality batsman, but he struggled against bounce and seam movement, which is why he failed in countries like Australia and South Africa. He would not score in those countries today against bowlers like Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins, Rabada, Steyn etc., so his average is likely to remain the same.

Apart from playing spin, he was not a better batsman than Root by any metric.

Similarly, Aravinda was one of those players who were brilliant at their best, but were not consistent enough to merit a place among the true greats. In many ways, he was an inferior version of Pietersen. He has played high class innings in every country, but he was not consistent. In Australia, England, India etc., he did nothing in his career apart from a hundred in each country.

He will not suddenly become a consistent batsman by playing in this era. The shortcomings that he had in his game - that did not allow him to score consistently - would still be exposed against bowlers like Starc, Hazlewood, Anderson, Broad, Rabada, Ashwin, Jadeja etc. etc.

Root is simply a more consistent player than both, but he loses focus and concentration after dominating the bowling for a period of time. However, he is only 27, and is yet to enter his best years as a batsman. He has shown enough in his career so far to suggest that he is a batsman of very high caliber.

Cross-era comparisons and discounting and compounding averages lead to illogical and self-contradictory assumptions. Hence, the conclusion that we can draw is that a great player will be great in any era. Azharuddin and de Silva would not struggle today, and Root and company will not struggle in the previous era. Maybe there will be a difference of +/- 5 in terms of averages, but adding +20 to the averages of Azharudding and de Silva, and concluding that they would average 60+ is surely hyperbolic.

Tendulkar averaged nearly 60 in his peak years, so if he were at his peak today, he would probably be averaging around that mark. Now as far as Lara is concerned, at his best, he was as good as any batsman to ever play the game, but he often had ugly lows. An out of form Lara was an ugly batsman, and if he were to play today, he would not always be in form, would he?



Without complicating things, agree with your point that great players are great in every era and it may be difficult to compare between eras based on statistics - but one thing we need to accept that cricket is fundamentally still the same game , what a batsman is ABLE to do with a bat in his hand when faced against good bowling and what a bowler is ABLE to do with a ball when up against a good batsman, those skills are not necessarily measurable by numbers but are visible when they are on display for those of us who have watched enough cricket.

Call it talent, skill, calibre, ability, whatever you call it -- this is what I am talking about, when you watch cricket for 20-30 years and have seen during the 80s/90s some of the undisputed ATGs of the game ... then you will appreciate that the calibre of a Malcolm Marshall or a Wasim Akram, Waqar, Donald, Ambrose et al. what they could do with the ball are not just marginally superior than the guys around today, but they were a different class and aside from one or two modern era bowlers the rest are not even remotely close to that level of skill and calibre.

The same with batsmen - I will agree on Virat Kohli and AB DeVilliers as being exceptional and batsmen of a very high calibre (and dont care whether they average in 40s or 50s, I say that based on having seen their batting) -- but Joe Root to me is a decent player , but as said earlier , he does not possess the skilset and in my view is not of the same calibre as an Azharuddin or Aravinda De Silva , that is purely based on what I have seen those two deliver with the bat against the bowlers they faced , compared to what I have seen of Joe Root.

As for consistency , well , again that all depends on numerous factors, Azharuddin and De Silva have during periods of their career shown consistency that is second to none as even stats will testify if needed, but again - and this is my opinion which might disagree with, I could see an Azharuddin and De Silva in modern day cricket converting more of their 100s into 150s/200s based on the standard of bowlers around. As for Lara, well I could imagine see him scoring 200s as frequently as other batsmen score 100s given that this was a batsman who feasted even on great bowlers when in song, but against these modern day mediocre bowlers he would break all batting records for sure.
 
Root has not failed enough in tournaments to conclude that he fails under pressure. He has played one World Cup, and was England's best batsman. He is also a better chaser than Amla, and if he were to fail in 5-6 consecutive tournaments, we can conclude that he is a choker like Amla.

The point I am trying to make that there is not much of a difference between Root and de Villiers in Tests, and the fact that Root is yet to enter his peak years while de Villiers is almost done, it is pretty obvious that he will surpass him as a Test batsman. We should also not forget that Root has had to shoulder a lot more responsibility than a young de Villiers, who was shielded by the likes of Smith, Kallis and Amla.

Root's rise has pretty much coincided with the decline of Cook, and England have not produced a consistent specialist batsman for a few years now. At times, Root has been a one man army for England.

Yes, 2019 WC will be a make or break for Root as far as limited overs go.

I am a little suspect against Root in tests though because he has toured Australia and New Zealand twice and as of now hasn't done anything there. Most great players have a poor first tour but till their second tour they reach their peak and this was Root's time to deliver with the bat. He will be 32 when he tours Australia again. So, that will be a big series for him. He was successful in his first tours to India and UAE but had no impact in any of those match.

Root is one of those rare batsmen who technically became a complete player at age of 25. At that age only, he seemed like a very good player of spin, pace, bounce, seam and swing. However, with all those talent yet, he hasn't done much away from home barring that one inning in South Africa. I love watching him bat and he is one of my favourite young player but feel he need to do a lot more outside England.
 
When Root sorts out this concentration lapse problem when he hits fifty, there will be no stopping him.
 
I think Root is a magnificent player. Technically, he is the most complete batsman of this era, and is rarely troubled by the bowlers, the conditions and the pitch. His only weakness so far is his concentration. No bowling attack seems to be good enough to stop him from scoring runs, but he continues to find ways of getting himself out after scoring a fifty.

As an overall batsman, he is at par with Kohli and better than Smith and Williamson. However, Kohli's mental game is at a completely different level, who is one of the top five greatest batsmen in history already in my view, and his killer instinct has been the biggest factor.

Something that Root has not shown so far in his career. Nonetheless, his best years are ahead of him, and although I don't think he can catch Kohli, but he should certainly improve his conversion rate and impact factor.

As far as the comparison with Amla (LOIs) and de Villiers (Test) are concerned, he is a superior version of the former. He is in a similar mould, but he has the ability to take the game head on and he has also shown the ability to perform under pressure, although he would need to step up in the World Cup next year.

In Tests, he is similar to de Villiers at this point, i.e. he gets starts in every innings but does not make it count more often than not, but he is almost as good as him already, so it is pretty obvious that he would surpass him as a Test batsman over the next 7-8 years or so.

Root better than Smith ? :)))

You love to over hype your favourites.

Smith is better than Root and it will be the same when both finish playing. Smith is mentally stronger.
 
Root better than Smith ? :)))

You love to over hype your favourites.

Smith is better than Root and it will be the same when both finish playing. Smith is mentally stronger.

Root is better than Smith in Limited Overs. He is a more fluent player and times the ball better. Williamson is superior as well.

Smith had a purple patch in Limited Overs in 2014-2015 but he has hit a wall since. He has been quite average in the last two years and although he played a couple of gritty knocks in the World Cup, he didn’t look good.
 
A good ODI Player and a guy who has inflated his average in tests with meaningless 50's. One of the most over hyped cricketers I have ever seen. At best an average Test Batsman and a good ODI batsman. Does not have the temperament to be a good Test Cricketer.

Alastiar Cook was the last Test Batsman that England had and he retired a year ago. Time to start focusing on building some Test Cricketers who can play long innings.
 
I think Root is an amazing ODI player and an average Test player. He doesn't score big centuries but he also generally doesn't have low scores.

He can bowl useful part-time spin too. His spin is normally very handy in ODI.
 
When Root sorts out this concentration lapse problem when he hits fifty, there will be no stopping him.

"When" lol. After 80+ Tests and 150 ODI's at age 28 if you still have struggle with temperament it means you ain't getting any better. This is his ceiling in Tests 50 and out. Anytime he gets anything more you should sit down an enjoy because it's a rare occurrence. Stop hyping this guy to the moon by continually hoping he will somehow magically sort out all his temperament issues.
 
Root is better than Smith in Limited Overs. He is a more fluent player and times the ball better. Williamson is superior as well.

Smith had a purple patch in Limited Overs in 2014-2015 but he has hit a wall since. He has been quite average in the last two years and although he played a couple of gritty knocks in the World Cup, he didn’t look good.


Steve Smith is capable accelerating in LO unlike Root.

He is still a good ODI player and he is a regular in the IPL. If he was so rubbish in LO he would not be on a million dollar IPL contract. Obviously he is much better in tests.
 
Don't rate him at all. He's another Amla but even Amla had great test performances before he declined.
 
Joe Root brings up his third century of the series, and the 39th of his Test career
 
Joe Root is an undisputed ATG.

He has the most runs for England in both Test and ODI.

He didn't play many T20. So, hard to judge him in that format. Also, T20 is not real cricket. :inti
 
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