Ideas to propel Pakistan out of the economic crisis

[gazza619]

Establishment has to cut down the perks, its as simple as that. They can’t live like kings in a poor country.

 

[shortbread]

Establishment has to cut down the perks, its as simple as that. They can’t live like kings in a poor country.

Make the defence forces a self funded entity by two means,
1) the fauji foundation needs to start making real money instead of commanding government perks, grants, benefits etc.... it needs to compete on level playing field with other private institutions.
2) set a standard annual expenditure target that cannot be altered by the whimsical fancies of generals. The best method is to tax defence expenditure separately rather than they demanding it from the government. This ways the defence forces are responsible for managing their income and expenses, plus people can see with transparency the money allocated for the forces.

 

[Stewie]

Yes, it's time to change our establishment. Our establishment should be financial tycoons now.

I don't understand one thing, if something happens to Imran Khan, his supporters comes out on the roads, if something happens to Nawaz Sharif, his supporters protests.Then why doesn't this nation come out for their own rights? When a corrupt man engages in corruption, why does this nation see him as a macho man? Why not hold him accountable? When any government raises the prices of commodities, why doesn't this nation come out in protest as gather like a tsunami for political jalsas? The problem is not in the system, the problem is within this nation.

Are you kidding me? Seriously? Did you really ask that question?

I thought that’s what people were doing with the protests. You think it was all about Imran? He is in jail now and wasn’t then.

But why don’t you tell me how people will come out without someone organizing or leading the charge? Such things don’t manifest themselves out of thin air. Tarik e insaaf itself was a result of the years of injustice and people turned to it.

But how often do you see people come out without any leadership? It never happens! When it does, no matter how benign or peaceful, it is made into a threat.
Does anyone remember the aural march movement? I’m sure if you do a survey of it right now on this forum, the people here will give you 15 different conspiracies about it. Wasn’t that just women standing up for their rights?

But going back, every time people were suppressed and their rights violated, they were told it was for Islam. Zia pulled it off most successfully.

 

[Kianig89]

Knowing the custodians of lockers any alteration in financial budget is not possible or unthinkable, the best way is to utilise the capacity of our Human resource, introduce the hourly rate wage and make jobs easy be it in any mode or type. The unemployment needs to be curbed , encourage every person to work be it making candles or picking recycled litter

 

[FearlessRoar]

Yes because not all 225 million people has the money or circumstances too.

Also I was talking about the youth, not all 225 million people, I'm aware millennial and baby boomers have a different viewpoint and agenda, but ultimately even they can't do anything overnight.

The future of Pakistan if it comes is still a good 50 years away.

Earning abroad and bringing dollars to Pakistan can also benefit our economy.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Pakistan is talking money matters with the IMF, aiming for the last bit of a $3 billion loan and starting talks on a new $6 billion deal. And India is demanding IMF, make sure Pakistan doesn't spend the cash on the defense.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Pakistan has one of the lowest Gross National Savings Rates (GNSR) in the world, at around 11% (Bangladesh at 34%, India at 30%, and Iran at 38%).

 

[FearlessRoar]

I think privatizing state owned businesses in Pakistan, like those in power, energy, railways, and oil & gas, can bring positive changes. When these enterprises are privately owned, things become more efficient, and the push from competition and profit motives makes a significant impact. Adding performance-based incentives for excellent operations could be a game changer.

Privatization can be a key player in attracting local and international investments because they will not worry about an unstable government.

Privatization often creates more jobs. We can implement ways to share economic benefits with the public, like equity offerings. Private businesses thrive on customer satisfaction for profitability, so expect improvements in service quality, responsiveness, and the overall customer experience.

In the realm of private firms, the existence of monopolies is rare. To make the privatization process possible, the involvement of stakeholders, including employees, unions, and local communities is important.

 

[offstump]

Knowing the custodians of lockers any alteration in financial budget is not possible or unthinkable, the best way is to utilise the capacity of our Human resource, introduce the hourly rate wage and make jobs easy be it in any mode or type. The unemployment needs to be curbed , encourage every person to work be it making candles or picking recycled litter

This is the way. With Pakistan’s population, the % under 30, there is a tremendous opportunity to utilize human capital and put these people to work. Trades training, industry etc. I don’t have the stats but I’m sure Pakistan has some of the best skilled labourers in the world, start small, like small engine repair overhaul and go from there.

 

[shortbread]

I think privatizing state owned businesses in Pakistan, like those in power, energy, railways, and oil & gas, can bring positive changes.

Finding buyers in the current high interest rate environment is very very challenging, for the rate of returns, buying public entities in Pakistan is fraught with risk. Under such circumstances getting good foreign investors is nigh on impossible, otherwise one has to deal with bargain hunters looking to buy family jewels at rock bottom prices.

For now it makes sense to hold onto them, improve efficiency, profitability, reduce debt burdens etc.... make them look more lucrative so that buyers can be found when the time is right.

Privatisation isn't as easy as many in the government, TV experts etc. think it is. Look at PIA, the government has no clue what to do with it's debt burden.

 

[mominsaigol]

Earning abroad and bringing dollars to Pakistan can also benefit our economy.

Best ides you've had, and I agree.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Earning abroad and bringing dollars to Pakistan can also benefit our economy.

For that we need to give them confidence because in the current political situation nobody would want to invest or even keep their funds in Pakistan.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Finding buyers in the current high interest rate environment is very very challenging, for the rate of returns, buying public entities in Pakistan is fraught with risk. Under such circumstances getting good foreign investors is nigh on impossible, otherwise one has to deal with bargain hunters looking to buy family jewels at rock bottom prices.

For now it makes sense to hold onto them, improve efficiency, profitability, reduce debt burdens etc.... make them look more lucrative so that buyers can be found when the time is right.

Privatisation isn't as easy as many in the government, TV experts etc. think it is. Look at PIA, the government has no clue what to do with it's debt burden.

Then the best solution is to scrap those state-owned enterprises that are under debt and pay off the debts by selling their combined assets. For example, if there are no state-owned airlines, it will not make any difference. There is no point in running an enterprise that is sunk in debts. We have private airlines such as Airblue and Serene Air, etc. They can contribute to our GDP.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Terrible situation. Pakistan's debt-to-GDP ratio is already above 70% and the IMF and credit ratings agencies estimate that the interest payments on its debt will soak up 50% to 60% of the government's revenues this year. That is the worst ratio of any sizable economy in the world.

 

[mominsaigol]

Honestly Pakistan is just messed up as a nation.

The thread was made in good faith however all these changes if implemented will take over 100+ years to fix.

Regardless I'm happy living in Australia, I couldn't dream of going back.

 

[Red-Indian]

Honestly Pakistan is just messed up as a nation.

The thread was made in good faith however all these changes if implemented will take over 100+ years to fix.

Regardless I'm happy living in Australia, I couldn't dream of going back.

These things do change.

I have a cousin who moved to the States in 2006. He tried really hard to dissuade me when I chose to move back to India in 2014 after 4 years there.

A few weeks ago he called me to discuss how to negotiate with his employer on the salary changes because he's been pushing them for relocation to India. His kid is going off to college so he's an empty-nester and wants to come back. Of course, he has other motivations like aging parents but 15 years ago that wouldn't have made a difference.

Of course I pulled the pseudo-firang's leg like crazy reminding him of all the lectures he gave me about destroying my career 10 years ago but it showed me how quickly things can change when a country makes positive changes.

 

[SportsWarrior]

India has corruption too. But how they still managed to be such a big economy?

Well, there is one more thing which I see, which is that India don't have terrorism issues, that's why foreign investors don't hesitate to invest there. And one more thing, India has a stable democracy.

You are true. India has lot of corruption, infact every developing country including China have lot of corruption. Although corruption is an hindrance for improvement of a country, biggest hurdle is lack of competent rulers and bureaucracy. Indian bureaucracy can be very corrupt but it also has some of the best minds in india. Most of our politicians are corrupt, but most also realize they need cater to peoples need. Unless you get that kind of any environment you will struggle to see improvements.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Sure thing. Yes, making peace with India is crucial for us. The money spent on defense could be used to improve our economy and the lives of our people. While India may not see it as a pressing need, but it's a vital need of Pakistan.

It is absolutely critical for pakistan to make peace with india to progress. It may not be very popular to hear this on this forum, but Pakistanis have lot more to gain from peace with india than other way around. Pakistan can access a market six times it's own size whereas india just gets to add another UP. Pakistan can take its already existing products to most of India. It will reduce the importance of army and will usher an era of peace and prosperity. I don't see any future where pakistan is a successful country while warring with India. But this will not happen in short term due to Stronghold of army.

 

[SportsWarrior]

All I'm gonna say is, I hope one day, sometime, somewhere Pakistan becomes a superpower.

No one would have guess in the late 1800's that by the time of the first and 2nd World War, usa would be a global powerhouse and flash forward a few years later, become a superpower.

In literally 40 years they went from being barely a country by late 1880, to a superpower country especially during the economic boom period.

Same case with uae, no one would have guessed that a desert with zero infrastructure would end up one of the most powerful and richest countries in the world.(Muslim country as well btw)

Same case for India, but brother ik this much, it ain't gonna be achieved in my lifetime. I'll be dead by the time Pakistan even reaches recovering stage.

Lol, by late 1800's USA was already a major power. Yeah they were not yet a super power but hiu make it look as if they were nobody. Late 1800 was when a lot of innovation in telecommunications, aeronautics, railroad, etc was taking place which made USA such a power by next century. All major global manufacturing companies like Ford, GM, GE were all setup in the 1910s based on developments done in late 1800s

 

[mominsaigol]

India has corruption too. But how they still managed to be such a big economy?

Well, there is one more thing which I see, which is that India don't have terrorism issues, that's why foreign investors don't hesitate to invest there. And one more thing, India has a stable dedemocracy

Theirs a difference.

- India has a 5000+ year history and has a wealth of resources which is why British even came to invade in the first place, heck even when the British left and took so much of india's resources with them, due to the near Infinte wealth that India had, what the British took was just a minor hindrance. The main issue was British control which got eradicated.

- Pakistan was built of new lands surrounded by hostile environments. With the exception of China, every other pakistani neighbour is extremely hostile towards us and our own country is younger then most of our grandparents with limited resources in comparison. Like the world bank in 2007 had to beg India to not cut water supplies flowing from the rivers to pakistan because India had a location advantage.

- Another thing India benefitted from was education, While British control was bad, Indians did learn many of the culture amd their way of managing things such as English language profiency and literacy rates so that they could negotiate with foreign leaders on investment opportunities whereas In comparison only 2% of the pakistani population speaks English and even less then that are well educated. Yes believe it or not, you and I are in that 1%, compare that to Indians who despite having poverty still have more educated individuals even if you take a small sample of 225 million from the 1B + people.

- India also made efforts to copy the west and make their own brand similar to China because they adopted the British Mantra of learning from other countries and adopting their positive traditions.

India has their own shark tank, their own master chef, their own steel, coal, oil infrastructure etc, they have their own hotel chains, brands etc etc, they paid alot of attention to creating internal brands that they could sell for profit to the international market.

-Pakistan can't really leverage that, our biggest friend is China really and China isn't too interested in helping Pakistan improve its economic prosperity.

It doesn't help that the government keeps increasing taxes but reducing employers pay.

I knew a guy who worked at packages for 44,000 rupees a month lol, and some graduates get paid 20,000 rupees a month, like no offense that's criminal, that shpuld not be legal considering putting fuel in your car once a week can go upto to 10,000 rupees.

Compare that to Australia, with taxes included graduates still keep 4000 aud per month in their accounts which is more then enough to pay apartment bills that usually go for 2k a month, and use the other 2k for decent amount of your Own entertainment or your own expenses, and keep in mind this is graduate jobs aka lowest pay.

Countries like Australia, Canada actually make sure they pay their employees so that they don't undergo starvation.

- It also doesn't help that most jobs in Pakistan have zero job security, in Australia theirs a law that if you fire or layoff an employee, you need to give them a severance package for time they contribited unless they did some criminal activity ofcourse whereas most jobs in Pakistan are usually your fired bye bye.

 

[Red-Indian]

You are true. India has lot of corruption, infact every developing country including China have lot of corruption. Although corruption is an hindrance for improvement of a country, biggest hurdle is lack of competent rulers and bureaucracy. Indian bureaucracy can be very corrupt but it also has some of the best minds in india. Most of our politicians are corrupt, but most also realize they need cater to peoples need. Unless you get that kind of any environment you will struggle to see improvements.

I've noticed it's the poorest countries that get really obsessed with corruption - Pakistan, Nigeria, Argentina etc.

I suppose it's the easiest way for demagogued like Imran Khan who have no real idea about economics to gain popularity. Just tell the gullible public that the reason you're poor is that fatcats are stealing all your money and rolling in it. If we could make them vomit out their money and bring it back from their Swiss havens, we would all be swimming in milk and honey. No need to give people real facts.

India went through this in the 80s when corruption seemed to dominate discourse. There was an entire election that ran on the Bofors scam. Now people just take it for granted that all politicians are corrupt and we have to live with it.

In fact, in the States, they have made it official. You have to actually register as a corruption agent...sorry lobbyist.

 

[mominsaigol]

Lol, by late 1800's USA was already a major power. Yeah they were not yet a super power but hiu make it look as if they were nobody. Late 1800 was when a lot of innovation in telecommunications, aeronautics, railroad, etc was taking place which made USA such a power by next century. All major global manufacturing companies like Ford, GM, GE were all setup in the 1910s based on developments done in late 1800s

In the late 1800's infrastructure was being built, they were still a nobody, its the same with uae.

During the 1990's the sheikh were focusing on building an infrastructure first before they turned it into a livable city so yes they were still pretty much a nobody lol.

But that's the difference between pakistan and usa/ Uae, Pakistan is incapable of building proper infrastructures for development.

For example the reason why amazon was so successful when it launched in 1994 was because the infrastructure was already built, they just had to buy books, and create a website, when someone purchased something, they would send them the book via postal service as the infrastructure existed.

Later when amazon became a global powerhouse they created their own logistics service and abandoned the postal method.

It's the same with uae, before they built a city, they made sure that the infrastructure existed for it be built, they implemented entire underground systems before they built a city.

Pakistan can't build it, look at pur cricket, our solution for fitness of players is the military? Like you're playing and representing a national sport which requores fitness levels and you don't have the infrastructure in place for fitness criteria? You're using the military instead? Joke of a nation honestly.

 

[mominsaigol]

You are true. India has lot of corruption, infact every developing country including China have lot of corruption. Although corruption is an hindrance for improvement of a country, biggest hurdle is lack of competent rulers and bureaucracy. Indian bureaucracy can be very corrupt but it also has some of the best minds in india. Most of our politicians are corrupt, but most also realize they need cater to peoples need. Unless you get that kind of any environment you will struggle to see improvements.

Their corrupt in that they want more money for themselves so they try to overthrow each other to gain power.

But their not corrupt at the expense of other people. They All want power to better the country, so they try to overthrow each other and manage it their way but the people don't get affected cause the one who manages to replace the other happens to be a brilliant mind and isn't an idiot in running a country.

Meanwhile imran khan claimed that because he was auccesful in running a hospital he'd be successful in running an entire nation.

Man doesn't know the difference between a hospital management and managing AN ENTIRE COUNTRY.

 

[mominsaigol]

You are true. India has lot of corruption, infact every developing country including China have lot of corruption. Although corruption is an hindrance for improvement of a country, biggest hurdle is lack of competent rulers and bureaucracy. Indian bureaucracy can be very corrupt but it also has some of the best minds in india. Most of our politicians are corrupt, but most also realize they need cater to peoples need. Unless you get that kind of any environment you will struggle to see improvements.

The best example I can give is Hitler. Hitler was pure evil, he murdered anyone non German, caused an entire world war and basically went nuclear, and was the definition of exploiting, leveraging and was the pinnacle of corruption lol

BUT

He turned Germany from a joke nation completly under control of the rich nations and completly humiliated during world war 1, to a powerful economy and the biggest threat across the entire planet, the educational standards, economic prosperity, the countries gdp etc soared to new heights. His influence was ao great that even after losing world war 2, everyone deliberately let Germany off the hook and treated it as a developed country simply because they were so scared that a harsh punishment would result in another Hitler coming through and causing another world war.

My own cousin studies in Germany, he calls it a beautiful country and even the educational standards are great, to the point that so many pakistani students try to study in Germany and get work their because of is lucrative high paying job and extremely low tuition fees.

Say what you want about Hitler, but the man forced the entire world to respect Germany even if he was corrupt and pure evil.

I'm not saying any Indian official is as evil or corrupt as Hitler but what in saying is, they do have similar visions that Hitler had aka focus being on turning India into a respected nation which so far India honestly is, in many sectors including entertainment and sports.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Good on you for having some nuance as well.

I'll say this. Every country that developed big from the 50s through the 80s - Germany, Japan, to a lesser extent Korea, Malaysia had the fond paternalistic hand of America over them. Massive grants, technical assistance, loans, military shield so they didn't have to waste money on an army etc. They also had in most cases reasonably strong pre-existing political institutions and self-governing experience. India and the subcontinent countries, Africa and to a lesser extent South America had none of these.

It's not a co-incidence Socialism, confused or Capitalism, we're all where we are today. A few countries ahead - China, Brazil etc. A few countries in the middle - India, Phillipines, Vietnam etc. and a few countries in the bottom - Pakistan, Nigeria and so on. 10-15 years between each cohort.

We can spend hundreds on posts debating reasons, decisions etc. that brought one country to one cohort or the other but India has been pretty lucky in one big sense - almost all of our Political leadership through the years has had no malafide intentions and has sought to move the country forward in their own confused way.

Yeah I agree with this. Somehow a lot of our youth looks at 50s and 60s and laments that our socialist policies held us back. May be they did, but the bigger impact was our inability to have a clear direction. None of the leaders had any major malevolent intentions. Nehru fought for the country and was already a very wealthy man. May be he was bit classist, but did what he thought was the right thing for india. Same with most major leaders who followed him including Indira, Rajiv, etc. They just blindly followed what in their opinions as the best thing for the country. They didn't have the same kind of advantage that Post war Europe, Japan and Korea had, the support from the sole superpower. In the hindsight may be aligning with USA might have yielded better economic fruits, but we may never know

What you can't deny are the strong foundation for institutions setup during 50s and 60s. Election commission, constitutional supremacy, reasonably workjng justice system, separation of army and governance, strong democratic values were all installed during this period. Except for a brief period of emergency everyone tried to work within the bounds of constitutional guardrails. Sure many politicians looted the country but they were also popular and were repeatedly elected by the people.

This institution building phase is what Pakistanis missed. Multiple rewriting of construction, eagerness to grab kashmir, misplaced focus on Muslim brotherhood, interference in neighboring countries, islamizatiom of society, systemic degradation of trust in institutions, no respect for democracy or voice of people, etc has brought them here. None of these are perfect in india, but sufficiently established that it will work.

Pakistan will need to invest decades into building these institutions. It may make an that the current generation may not even see the fruits of their hardwork as it happened to India's previous generations. But they need to do that for better pakistan

 

[SportsWarrior]

Their corrupt in that they want more money for themselves so they try to overthrow each other to gain power.

But their not corrupt at the expense of other people. They All want power to better the country, so they try to overthrow each other and manage it their way but the people don't get affected cause the one who manages to replace the other happens to be a brilliant mind and isn't an idiot in running a country.

Meanwhile imran khan claimed that because he was auccesful in running a hospital he'd be successful in running an entire nation.

Man doesn't know the difference between a hospital management and managing AN ENTIRE COUNTRY.

Yeah I agree with you. Many are corrupt but a lot of them are also pretty effective rulers. Someone like Jayalalitha, who is a certified corrupt politician was also very competent administrator. A lot of family members worked at various government agencies in TN government during tenure. They all hated her for how corrupt she was, never voted for her but still had admiration for how much commited to make a better Tamil Nadu. There are so many such examples including Krishna from Karnataka, Naidu From AP, etc.

Regarding IK I am sure he was not even running his hospital it will done by administration. It would have been better for him to become CM of KPk and get actual administrative experience before looking to become PM. Administring a country is not an easy job. Modi does a good job as he spent three term as CM. That is what puts me off with Rahul Gandhi. He could have become a minister in Manmohan singh government a d gained some experience.. Nope the prince wants to be a king right away. That's why I admire Bilwala that he choose to pick up some ministry and tried to gain experience. At least he is trying and doesn't have the ego

 

[SportsWarrior]

Pakistan is talking money matters with the IMF, aiming for the last bit of a $3 billion loan and starting talks on a new $6 billion deal. And India is demanding IMF, make sure Pakistan doesn't spend the cash on the defense.

It's a fair demand from India who have a small stake in IMF. Why should the money lent as a last resort to a country be spent on defense. Actually this is a blessing in disguise for pakistan. They can point to IMF restrictions and ensure money isn't wasted on army

 

[SportsWarrior]

I've noticed it's the poorest countries that get really obsessed with corruption - Pakistan, Nigeria, Argentina etc.

I suppose it's the easiest way for demagogued like Imran Khan who have no real idea about economics to gain popularity. Just tell the gullible public that the reason you're poor is that fatcats are stealing all your money and rolling in it. If we could make them vomit out their money and bring it back from their Swiss havens, we would all be swimming in milk and honey. No need to give people real facts.

India went through this in the 80s when corruption seemed to dominate discourse. There was an entire election that ran on the Bofors scam. Now people just take it for granted that all politicians are corrupt and we have to live with it.

In fact, in the States, they have made it official. You have to actually register as a corruption agent...sorry lobbyist.

Yeah exactly. Poor countries just obsess over corruption while ignoring the poor capabilities of people elected and governing them. All forms of government leads to corruption. There is very little difference between what drive ambition and what drives greed. But if the country is able to find some competent people in the right places they will do relatively fine.

Someone like Imran khan is not going to use his magic wand to change things in a short period of time. You need someone like Pujara, understated, competent, willing to tough it out for long duration, take body blows and stand there to change the course of the game. Then someone like Pant can come and blast away. That is what happened with PV Rao and Manmohan singh. Rao took all the body blows, stood guarding Manmohan so that h can make the right changes. Most of the times these decisions are not popular but very much necessary. After donning what was probably the most pivotal role in Indian history, Rao was voted out in the next election and went into obsecurity and political retirement. That is why I respect him so much, he had the courage to do what was right. He was courageous, strong, competent and pretty corrupt.

Pakistan has to take those hard steps. It won't be done by someone like IK whose solution was to appoint same minister from the so called corrupt regimes of the past. He changed his finance ministry so many times and they had no clear directions. Pakistan has to find someone competent even if they are not very popular and corrupt

 

[globetrotter]

Pakistan's new government have mammoth task to pull back country from the current economic crises....... if new Pak Govt. adopts their old agenda of "hate India" and distract Pakistan janata, then the situation can become worst...... New leadership should adopt new tactic to pull out from current economic crises and for that they need to dump "Kashmir issue" and also to make their country from terrorism... they need to create atmosphere of peace within the country as well as with neighbours..... Now to pull country out of current economic crisis, Pakistan don't need to invent new microchip or new electric car or any new invention, they need to identify country's potential..... As an Indian, I see one sector where Pak government can do miracle and revive their economy i.e. tourism..... I am regular reader of Dawn online since last many years, I have seen from their photo feature areas like Neelam valley, Hunza Valley, skardu, swat valley and many more.... I was really blown away after seeing the natural beauty existed in these areas which is at par with Switzerland..... if Pakistan developed these areas as tourism area then it can attracts tourist from all over world and can earn billions... but for that they need to make these area and their country terrorism free...

Just imagine, if the relations between India-Pakistan were normal and no terrorism existed in Pakistan, Pakistan could have made billions from Indian tourists and Indian film Industry.... Bollywood director Yash Chopra from his movies like Chandani, Darr made Switzerland popular amongst Indians... after seeing these movies, Indian tourists in Switzerland increased drastically and Switzerland Government acknowledged the same by awarding highest national award of their country to Yash Chopra............ if the relation between India and Pakistan were normal and no terrorism in Pakistan, then many Indian film directors (just remember bollywood doesn't mean the whole indian film industry as there is large south indian film industry and other regional film industry) would have preferred Pakistan instead of Switzerland as it's time saving and cost effective.

 

[BouncerGuy]

The point is How Pakistan can improve its economy. People are pointing out the faults but no real solution has been provided yet. Everybody knows the problems Pakistan is facing, time has come to try to stand on the solution end now.

 

[UP]

Yeah exactly. Poor countries just obsess over corruption while ignoring the poor capabilities of people elected and governing them. All forms of government leads to corruption. There is very little difference between what drive ambition and what drives greed. But if the country is able to find some competent people in the right places they will do relatively fine.

Someone like Imran khan is not going to use his magic wand to change things in a short period of time. You need someone like Pujara, understated, competent, willing to tough it out for long duration, take body blows and stand there to change the course of the game. Then someone like Pant can come and blast away. That is what happened with PV Rao and Manmohan singh. Rao took all the body blows, stood guarding Manmohan so that h can make the right changes. Most of the times these decisions are not popular but very much necessary. After donning what was probably the most pivotal role in Indian history, Rao was voted out in the next election and went into obsecurity and political retirement. That is why I respect him so much, he had the courage to do what was right. He was courageous, strong, competent and pretty corrupt.

Pakistan has to take those hard steps. It won't be done by someone like IK whose solution was to appoint same minister from the so called corrupt regimes of the past. He changed his finance ministry so many times and they had no clear directions. Pakistan has to find someone competent even if they are not very popular and corrupt

It sounds all good and nice but in Pakistan the boots don’t let anyone work. They have total control of the system so until they go back to barracks we won’t find Manmohan Singh or Rao.

IK’s hands were tied by the boots, he was the punching bag when in reality it was the boot guy who had the remote control.

 

[Red-Indian]

The point is How Pakistan can improve its economy. People are pointing out the faults but no real solution has been provided yet. Everybody knows the problems Pakistan is facing, time has come to try to stand on the solution end now.

There are solutions. I've proposed a practical one even if I say so myself in this very thread. What's required is the desire and will to implement.

As Paul Atreides would say - I see many futures for Pakistan. Many in which it ends up becoming a basket case and breaks up like former Yugoslavia, some in which it just limps along, just one or two in which it turns things around and is a successful modern nation.

Excuse the reference. I just saw Dune 2 over the weekend in Imax and I'm still in a daze about what I think is the greatest science fiction movie ever made. Even better than 2001 - A Space Odyssey or the original Star Wars.

 

[Energy]

This thread is the ultimate inclination toward how flawed the two-nation theory has been. Apni madad aap.! That's the motto of the country, which should have been preached by Jinnah as well from the start.

If you take a cursory look at the natural resources available to India in comparison to Pakistan, you will have an idea that it is not very easy to develop your exports when you don't have much at your disposal. Basic resources such as coal, diamond, arable land, forest, water. That's for a start. On top of that we have historically had a corrupt regime who have never had the vision to think beyond petty local power.

On a positive note, I think Pakistan has actually punched above its weight for staying relevant, that is credit to Pakistanis who moved overseas and have strived for education, business, enterprise. In every field you do have small pockets of Pakistani expertise, which is pleasantly surprising considering establishment, terrorism etc. It's nowhere near as big as India, but it's significant enough.

 

[JaDed]

This thread is the ultimate inclination toward how flawed the two-nation theory has been. Apni madad aap.! That's the motto of the country, which should have been preached by Jinnah as well from the start.

If you take a cursory look at the natural resources available to India in comparison to Pakistan, you will have an idea that it is not very easy to develop your exports when you don't have much at your disposal. Basic resources such as coal, diamond, arable land, forest, water. That's for a start. On top of that we have historically had a corrupt regime who have never had the vision to think beyond petty local power.

On a positive note, I think Pakistan has actually punched above its weight for staying relevant, that is credit to Pakistanis who moved overseas and have strived for education, business, enterprise. In every field you do have small pockets of Pakistani expertise, which is pleasantly surprising considering establishment, terrorism etc. It's nowhere near as big as India, but it's significant enough.

What nonsense , Pakistani has so many resources that it just exports instead of industrialising.
This is just a post praising Pakistanis that migrating ridiculous.

 

[Mockingbird]

Pakistan is talking money matters with the IMF, aiming for the last bit of a $3 billion loan and starting talks on a new $6 billion deal. And India is demanding IMF, make sure Pakistan doesn't spend the cash on the defense.

What’s wrong with that? India does not owe anything to IMF. It has a right to demand that its contribution does not go towards something which can use it harm. We have all seen how peaceful Kashmir has been the last few years once the monetary support has been cut off.

On one hand Pakistan has no money to support its population and on the other hand they want to spend the borrowed money on defence, especially when there is no provocation from the Indian side? How does that even make sense?

 

[hassan918]

Aurangzeb termed 'solid guy' to run Pakistan's ailing economy​

Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif’s move to pick former JPMorgan banker Muhammad Aurangzeb to run the country’s ailing economy is a positive development ahead of the negotiations with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for another bailout package this month, analysts told Bloomberg on Tuesday.

Brokerage firm Topline Securities said Aurangzeb’s appointment — over former four time finance minister Ishaq Dar — is a “better choice” given his decades of experience in the financial sector

“Investors were more keen to see who will be the new finance minister as he will be the key person negotiating with the IMF,” the firm told Bloomberg.

Topline Securities believed that the appointment of non-elected technocrats to the cabinet is helping address the country’s “economic challenges”.

BML Capital Management’s Ali Raza termed the newly appointed finance minister as a “solid guy” who he said is expected to do what is required to get Pakistan on a long-term structural reform path.

“Past interviews suggest that he thinks Pakistan needs to enhance its tax base by tapping into the retail and real estate sector,” he added.

According to Raza, Finance Minister Aurangzeb is also a proponent of a cashless economy through digitalisation, and will support civil-military-led Special Investment Facilitation Council (SIFC) efforts for the privatisation process within the country.

Pakistan urgently needs a fresh IMF agreement to shore up an economy suffering from high inflation, low reserves and high external financing needs.

Pakistan's current $3 billion, nine-month Stand-By Arrangement (SBA) expires next month, and it is crucial for the country's economic team to negotiate a longer term programme immediately afterwards.

Finance Minister Aurangzeb confirmed that Islamabad's talks with the IMF under the $3 billion SBA are likely to commence this week with the government to send a formal request to the global lender to cushion Pakistan's dwindling economy, The News reported on Tuesday.

According to sources, the Pakistani side would dispatch an email to the IMF headquarters in Washington DC to send its review team to Islamabad for the talks and release of the last tranche worth $1.1 billion.

Prime Minister Shehbaz-led government might also request to commence talks for a fresh medium-term bailout package for $6 billion Extended Fund Facility (EFF) with the strong chances to increase it with climate financing of $1.5 to $2 billion more to secure additional financing from the IMF compared to the allocated quota for Pakistan.

Source: GEO

 

[hassan918]

I hope he would be able to do something to make Pakistan economy better which is surely a very difficult task.

 

[Red-Indian]

For those who're genuinely searching for ideas and solutions, the job is done. Just ran across this brilliant report from one of the most respected Pakistani thinktanks - Tabadlab compiled by two of the best economists around in Ammar Khan and Zeeshan Salahuddin.

A raging fire: Pakistan’s debt crisis

Couple of graphs to illustrate the point


The worst case is truly scary and Pakistan could end up with hyperinflation and food shortages.

They've come up with some excellent solutions though. Much better than my amateur analysis.


That's only the summary. Read the full report. I assure you it's worth it.

 

[daytrader]

For those who're genuinely searching for ideas and solutions, the job is done. Just ran across this brilliant report from one of the most respected Pakistani thinktanks - Tabadlab compiled by two of the best economists around in Ammar Khan and Zeeshan Salahuddin.

A raging fire: Pakistan’s debt crisis

Couple of graphs to illustrate the pointView attachment 142729

View attachment 142733
The worst case is truly scary and Pakistan could end up with hyperinflation and food shortages.

They've come up with some excellent solutions though. Much better than my amateur analysis.

View attachment 142732
That's only the summary. Read the full report. I assure you it's worth it.

Imran Khan has been talking about these plans for year. Even tried implementing some of these ideas with the Billion Tree Tsunami, getting overseas Pakistanis to invest, trying to cut down on government expenses etc. Removing him has set Pakistan back

 

[Red-Indian]

Imran Khan has been talking about these plans for year. Even tried implementing some of these ideas with the Billion Tree Tsunami, getting overseas Pakistanis to invest, trying to cut down on government expenses etc. Removing him has set Pakistan back

What you're saying has no actual relation to what's proposed in the report.

These are serious solutions produced by respected development economists not slogans from an amateur populist politician. Find me one mention in the report of overseas Pakistanis. I'm sure they're all nice people but they're irrelevant from the perspective of solving Pakistan's economic problems.

Removing and imprisoning him has definitely set Pakistan's democracy back but has no significance in terms of Pakistan's economy. Here's a chart of Pakistan's external debt and liabilities across 3-4 governments


The final dip of course is the result of recent belt tightening and post-pandemic recovery but otherwise tough to see any pattern.

 

[Vegitto1]

Let’s all think like investors for a moment.

Would you invest in a start-up or setup business in a country where you know that once you start to get noticed, the political and establishment elite will either force you to give them a share of your business or force you out.

In other functioning countries, laws are in place to stop this from happening and while Pakistan may have such laws in place as well, the courts and the Judges who are meant to implement them are subservient to the very people who are forcing you out.

Why would anyone want to invest in a country where there is no rule of law?

This is the reason why every graduate dreams of “sarkari naukri”

 

[rpant_gabba]

That's only the summary. Read the full report. I assure you it's worth it.

I guess I have been following this issue bit longer.

Pakistan has been living off of American aid ever since its inception. joined CENTO and SEATO to get some funds.

First major benefactor was Nixon, followed by Charlie wilson/ reagan and Bush W.

during rest of the times things have been messed up. think mid to late 70's, late 80's and 90's and of course post W.

All the while interest and loan payments where deferred but never went away.

CPEC and its guaranteed returns (cpacity payments for power plants) is adding to the misery

Chickens are coming home to roost with no light at the end of the Tunnel.

BTW, R'Amen.

 

[Red-Indian]

R'Amen brother. Brings back memories.

I don't think there's any point going that far back. Obviously there's been any number of mistakes and short-sightedness over the years but it's not all doom and gloom. If Vietnam could pick itself up after what was left of the country after the war and reach where they are today despite the low-level American hostility, there's still hope for Pakistan.

Shahbaz Sharif comes across as a reasonable guy, he's appointed a decently credentialed Finance minister and they have the IMF to hold their hand. There's glimmers of light at the end of the tunnel.

Of course they're starting from a terrible base and have zero political legitimacy so maybe it's just a dimly lit, slow moving train coming down at them.

 

[UP]

R'Amen brother. Brings back memories.

I don't think there's any point going that far back. Obviously there's been any number of mistakes and short-sightedness over the years but it's not all doom and gloom. If Vietnam could pick itself up after what was left of the country after the war and reach where they are today despite the low-level American hostility, there's still hope for Pakistan.

Shahbaz Sharif comes across as a reasonable guy, he's appointed a decently credentialed Finance minister and they have the IMF to hold their hand. There's glimmers of light at the end of the tunnel.

Of course they're starting from a terrible base and have zero political legitimacy so maybe it's just a dimly lit, slow moving train coming down at them.

Your post sounds very nice but the problem is Showbaz himself or the boots/people who control him are part of the status co. This is a 75 year old status co. Current people who control the whole set up actually benefit from the current system.

In order to bring back stability, and economic growth the status co has to dramatically transform. These rent seekers or status co people don’t have the vision nor solutions. You can bring in any expert or a great finance minister, unless the basic problem goes away, they won’t be able to bring in grand reforms.

When the boots go back to barracks, Pakistan can pick itself too. This must happen or its a hyper inflation situation and chaos in future. Its a ticking bomb.

 

[Red-Indian]

Your post sounds very nice but the problem is Showbaz himself or the boots/people who control him are part of the status co. This is a 75 year old status co. Current people who control the whole set up actually benefit from the current system.

In order to bring back stability, and economic growth the status co has to dramatically transform. These rent seekers or status co people don’t have the vision nor solutions. You can bring in any expert or a great finance minister, unless the basic problem goes away, they won’t be able to bring in grand reforms.

When the boots go back to barracks, Pakistan can pick itself too. This must happen or its a hyper inflation situation and chaos in future. Its a ticking bomb.

Who knows? When the time comes, the unlikeliest of heros emerge. PV Narasimha Rao after 35 years in politics had given no indication that he would suddenly turn out to be this reformist, liberalising Prime Minister. Was always a competent guy and a strong Gandhi loyalist but to go from that to being considered in the top 3 of our alltime prime ministers was quite a jump. Surrounded himself with technocrats and firmly executed the IMF prescription. Maybe Shahbaz can do that? There's not many options left.

If you're going to wait for the boots to go back to the barracks, you'll wait a lot longer than Pakistan can take. In 75 years+ of Pakistan's existence, they've never been in the barracks and have probably forgotten the way back. They've either been completely in power - Ayub, Zia, Musharraf or behind the throne - including and I know you'll hate to hear it but during Imran's time (he's said so himself in interviews) and now.

Time to accept that and see if you find a model that works in the hybrid - Thailand managed it, so did Vietnam and Turkey. A sharing of power between military & civilian working towards a common end making the pie bigger for everyone.

 

[Stewie]

I've noticed it's the poorest countries that get really obsessed with corruption - Pakistan, Nigeria, Argentina etc.

I suppose it's the easiest way for demagogued like Imran Khan who have no real idea about economics to gain popularity. Just tell the gullible public that the reason you're poor is that fatcats are stealing all your money and rolling in it. If we could make them vomit out their money and bring it back from their Swiss havens, we would all be swimming in milk and honey. No need to give people real facts.

India went through this in the 80s when corruption seemed to dominate discourse. There was an entire election that ran on the Bofors scam. Now people just take it for granted that all politicians are corrupt and we have to live with it.

In fact, in the States, they have made it official. You have to actually register as a corruption agent...sorry lobbyist.

What makes you believe the bolded part?

 

[Red-Indian]

What makes you believe the bolded part?

Do you really want me to go there?

- I think he said he would die rather than go to the IMF with a begging bowl when it was obvious to anyone with the most basic grasp of economics that it was impossible. He then delayed signing the program until it was a crisis situation vis-à-vis reserves and Balance of payments
- He hired and fired roughly a Finance Minister a year eventually settling on the worst of the lot - a more or less professional politician who had virtually zero credibility in world financial markets. The finance minister makes a huge difference in giving comfort in terms of person & policy continuity to investors and lenders
- In the midst of all this chopping and changing, he didn't manage to introduce a single non-populist economic measure - no property taxes, no taxes on traders, no privatisation
- In the middle of an IMF program in which he had firmly committed to targets, he goes and violates it totally - dropping power and fuel rates. The move almost destroyed the Pakistan economy

I can go on and on - there were silly statements regarding overseas Pakistani's investment capacity, the disastrous visit to Russia in the midst of a powder keg situation to get crude that Pakistan couldn't even process.

I would agree the guy is a pretty street smart politician who has a sense of the public pulse. He's also a charismatic leader. However... he's never governed previously even at a local level which probably makes it difficult to grasp country level macroeconomics. I also suspect the chopping and changing in Finance is because he tends not to trust anyone who gives him economic hard truths.

If he does come back to power as he rightly should but probably won't, he should hire someone competent and knowledgeable to run the economy. He made a good start with hiring one of the most respected development economists in Atif Mian but couldn't stick to his convictions on that. There's some who're less controversial but would only come if promised protection and stability.

 

[Stewie]

Do you really want me to go there?

- I think he said he would die rather than go to the IMF with a begging bowl when it was obvious to anyone with the most basic grasp of economics that it was impossible. He then delayed signing the program until it was a crisis situation vis-à-vis reserves and Balance of payments
- He hired and fired roughly a Finance Minister a year eventually settling on the worst of the lot - a more or less professional politician who had virtually zero credibility in world financial markets. The finance minister makes a huge difference in giving comfort in terms of person & policy continuity to investors and lenders
- In the midst of all this chopping and changing, he didn't manage to introduce a single non-populist economic measure - no property taxes, no taxes on traders, no privatisation
- In the middle of an IMF program in which he had firmly committed to targets, he goes and violates it totally - dropping power and fuel rates. The move almost destroyed the Pakistan economy

I can go on and on - there were silly statements regarding overseas Pakistani's investment capacity, the disastrous visit to Russia in the midst of a powder keg situation to get crude that Pakistan couldn't even process.

I would agree the guy is a pretty street smart politician who has a sense of the public pulse. He's also a charismatic leader. However... he's never governed previously even at a local level which probably makes it difficult to grasp country level macroeconomics. I also suspect the chopping and changing in Finance is because he tends not to trust anyone who gives him economic hard truths.

If he does come back to power as he rightly should but probably won't, he should hire someone competent and knowledgeable to run the economy. He made a good start with hiring one of the most respected development economists in Atif Mian but couldn't stick to his convictions on that. There's some who're less controversial but would only come if promised protection and stability.

According to the economic survey report that was published by the pakistan government in 2022, after he was ousted, by the finance minister and department of the caretaker government who were responsible for ousting him, Pakistan made steady progress during Imran's government. You can review that report if you google it. There is a lot to be said here as counter argument to your post, I wish I had the time to do it with proper evidence, I do not want to half @$$ it. But in a nutshell, I would say he is definitely not perfect and has flaws, but claiming he has zero clue about economics perhaps is not the right statement in the overall context. None of the leaders are qualified economiss. it is very rare. They typically have economic experts as advisors. Imran had pretty qualified individuals around him.

But unfortunately, his hands and pretty much everyone's hands are tied where you cannot make any significant changes to the set up because it upsets the status quo of the military regime. Because there are indeed a lot of reforms that need to be made and Imran could not do it. His focus was on making sure the guilty corrupt leaders are put away and that was the need of the hour to protect our future and the establishment did not allow him to do that.

Pakistan is a hot mess. Indians may not fully comprehend the challenges. What you are dismissing as incompetence is not incompetence, its the red tape belonging to the establishment.

 

[Red-Indian]

According to the economic survey report that was published by the pakistan government in 2022, after he was ousted, by the finance minister and department of the caretaker government who were responsible for ousting him, Pakistan made steady progress during Imran's government. You can review that report if you google it. There is a lot to be said here as counter argument to your post, I wish I had the time to do it with proper evidence, I do not want to half @$$ it. But in a nutshell, I would say he is definitely not perfect and has flaws, but claiming he has zero clue about economics perhaps is not the right statement in the overall context. None of the leaders are qualified economiss. it is very rare. They typically have economic experts as advisors. Imran had pretty qualified individuals around him.

But unfortunately, his hands and pretty much everyone's hands are tied where you cannot make any significant changes to the set up because it upsets the status quo of the military regime. Because there are indeed a lot of reforms that need to be made and Imran could not do it. His focus was on making sure the guilty corrupt leaders are put away and that was the need of the hour to protect our future and the establishment did not allow him to do that.

Pakistan is a hot mess. Indians may not fully comprehend the challenges. What you are dismissing as incompetence is not incompetence, its the red tape belonging to the establishment.

I think you can take some of the sting out of my "no real idea about economics" statement by attributing to it the hyperbole necessary to post on a forum like this.

However, in general, I tend not to give any credit for knowledge to leaders who want to parachute straight to heading a country of a quarter of a billion people. To build the knowledge and let's call it muscle memory necessary to guide such a complex mechanism of so many moving parts as a modern economy, it really helps to take charge of a smaller model. Imran had that chance with KPK. Not sure why he didn't take it. The complexities would've been smaller and the penalties for poor decisions lesser.

As far as having qualified economic experts as advisors, he didn't seem to trust any. He barely gave anyone including respected economists like Hafez Shaikh time to get the seat warm before firing and moving on to the next toy. To me that's a clear sign of someone who didn't really understand what he was doing.

 

[JaDed]

R'Amen brother. Brings back memories.

I don't think there's any point going that far back. Obviously there's been any number of mistakes and short-sightedness over the years but it's not all doom and gloom. If Vietnam could pick itself up after what was left of the country after the war and reach where they are today despite the low-level American hostility, there's still hope for Pakistan.

Shahbaz Sharif comes across as a reasonable guy, he's appointed a decently credentialed Finance minister and they have the IMF to hold their hand. There's glimmers of light at the end of the tunnel.

Of course they're starting from a terrible base and have zero political legitimacy so maybe it's just a dimly lit, slow moving train coming down at them.

Vietnamese are pretty hard working people, plus its a different society where women and men contribute.

Even Indian women participation in economy is a joke, only BD has improved in that scenario.

 

[Kianig89]

Corrupt rulers and dynasty politics the biggest obstacle, IK paved the way for foreign automobiles like Changan Proton etc , only to be sidelined and compressed by cartel media deep rooted in due to corrupt politicians.

Miftah Ismail went for the landmark step of getting retailers in the tax bracket only to be ousted and disgraced by Maryam who ridiculed him publicly.
Infact the fishy amnesty schemes by Robber Dar further inflated the real estate sector and strengthen the Black economy

 

[rpant_gabba]

I think you can take some of the sting out of my "no real idea about economics" statement by attributing to it the hyperbole necessary to post on a forum like this.

However, in general, I tend not to give any credit for knowledge to leaders who want to parachute straight to heading a country of a quarter of a billion people. To build the knowledge and let's call it muscle memory necessary to guide such a complex mechanism of so many moving parts as a modern economy, it really helps to take charge of a smaller model. Imran had that chance with KPK. Not sure why he didn't take it. The complexities would've been smaller and the penalties for poor decisions lesser.

As far as having qualified economic experts as advisors, he didn't seem to trust any. He barely gave anyone including respected economists like Hafez Shaikh time to get the seat warm before firing and moving on to the next toy. To me that's a clear sign of someone who didn't really understand what he was doing.

According to the economic survey report that was published by the pakistan government in 2022, after he was ousted, by the finance minister and department of the caretaker government who were responsible for ousting him, Pakistan made steady progress during Imran's government. You can review that report if you google it. There is a lot to be said here as counter argument to your post, I wish I had the time to do it with proper evidence, I do not want to half @$$ it. But in a nutshell, I would say he is definitely not perfect and has flaws, but claiming he has zero clue about economics perhaps is not the right statement in the overall context. None of the leaders are qualified economiss. it is very rare. They typically have economic experts as advisors. Imran had pretty qualified individuals around him.

But unfortunately, his hands and pretty much everyone's hands are tied where you cannot make any significant changes to the set up because it upsets the status quo of the military regime. Because there are indeed a lot of reforms that need to be made and Imran could not do it. His focus was on making sure the guilty corrupt leaders are put away and that was the need of the hour to protect our future and the establishment did not allow him to do that.

Pakistan is a hot mess. Indians may not fully comprehend the challenges. What you are dismissing as incompetence is not incompetence, its the red tape belonging to the establishment.

I think majority of informed Indians have long been pointing out the structural issues in Pak economy and the intractable hold of the establishment on it.

They were ridiculed becos establishment played the India boogeyman card and swam lapped it up becos US “aid” was keeping things in check. that’s over

AS I said before chickens are coming home to roost.

You are correct, unless establishment is brought under civilian control, it’s a downward spiral

Any thoughts on if establishment can brought under civilian control?

 

[rpant_gabba]

R'Amen brother. Brings back memories.

I don't think there's any point going that far back. Obviously there's been any number of mistakes and short-sightedness over the years but it's not all doom and gloom. If Vietnam could pick itself up after what was left of the country after the war and reach where they are today despite the low-level American hostility, there's still hope for Pakistan.

Shahbaz Sharif comes across as a reasonable guy, he's appointed a decently credentialed Finance minister and they have the IMF to hold their hand. There's glimmers of light at the end of the tunnel.

Of course they're starting from a terrible base and have zero political legitimacy so maybe it's just a dimly lit, slow moving train coming down at them.

Vietnamese are hardworking protein great work ethic. They didn’t get handouts and managed their rebuild well.

Not a good comparison to current Pakistan situation

 

[emranabbas]

there are 241 million people living in Pakistan if everyone chips in 100 rupees we can go a long way

 

[UP]

Who knows? When the time comes, the unlikeliest of heros emerge. PV Narasimha Rao after 35 years in politics had given no indication that he would suddenly turn out to be this reformist, liberalising Prime Minister. Was always a competent guy and a strong Gandhi loyalist but to go from that to being considered in the top 3 of our alltime prime ministers was quite a jump. Surrounded himself with technocrats and firmly executed the IMF prescription. Maybe Shahbaz can do that? There's not many options left.

If you're going to wait for the boots to go back to the barracks, you'll wait a lot longer than Pakistan can take. In 75 years+ of Pakistan's existence, they've never been in the barracks and have probably forgotten the way back. They've either been completely in power - Ayub, Zia, Musharraf or behind the throne - including and I know you'll hate to hear it but during Imran's time (he's said so himself in interviews) and now.

Time to accept that and see if you find a model that works in the hybrid - Thailand managed it, so did Vietnam and Turkey. A sharing of power between military & civilian working towards a common end making the pie bigger for everyone.

This regime or existing status co people will never change the system. They simply can’t do it. Hybrid model has not and will not work for Pak. Boots have to go back to barracks.

We will talk in 2 years.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Imran Khan has been talking about these plans for year. Even tried implementing some of these ideas with the Billion Tree Tsunami, getting overseas Pakistanis to invest, trying to cut down on government expenses etc. Removing him has set Pakistan back

lol are you real? Did you read the article? None of what you say is part of the article and proposed solutions. I would rather take advise from some economists than someone who became prime minister just because he was a very good cricketer.

 

[Stewie]

I think majority of informed Indians have long been pointing out the structural issues in Pak economy and the intractable hold of the establishment on it.

They were ridiculed becos establishment played the India boogeyman card and swam lapped it up becos US “aid” was keeping things in check. that’s over

AS I said before chickens are coming home to roost.

You are correct, unless establishment is brought under civilian control, it’s a downward spiral

Any thoughts on if establishment can brought under civilian control?

It’s not just Indians, Pakistanis living in and outside have been complaining and have been fearful of it for decades now. Our foreign reserves were much larger and healthier than India in the early 80s.

Then the military establishment backed monarchic thieves took power and it’s been downhill since then. Funnily enough land perhaps ironically as well, the best period for Pakistan during the downside was during Musharraf era, another military dictator, not that I am supporting him or anything, just stating some facts.

Also the myth about India being the boogeyman is wrong. Pakistan has as many anti American slogans painted on the walls as India or Israel. The establishment was successfully able to use the fear of “the whole world against us” tehcnique.

From what I understand most states are like that though and have created their own boogeymen for asserting control on the populace. In Indian media Muslims were portrayed as jolly minority characters when I was growing up. Now they are mostly Mumbai mafiosis or terrorists. That’s the hot selling enemy (and Pakistan of course)

 

[rpant_gabba]

It’s not just Indians, Pakistanis living in and outside have been complaining and have been fearful of it for decades now. Our foreign reserves were much larger and healthier than India in the early 80s.

Yup, Thats becos boat load of funds where provided by US for Soviet-Afghan war. Charlie wilson was very tight with Zia

Then the military establishment backed monarchic thieves took power and it’s been downhill since then. Funnily enough land perhaps ironically as well, the best period for Pakistan during the downside was during Musharraf era, another military dictator, not that I am supporting him or anything, just stating some facts.

yup. Mush was buddies with Bush W, coalition support funds, deferment of interest and payments to IMF, all for support for WOT. Only if W knew that that money was being used to kill americans...

Also the myth about India being the boogeyman is wrong. Pakistan has as many anti American slogans painted on the walls as India or Israel. The establishment was successfully able to use the fear of “the whole world against us” tehcnique.

From what I understand most states are like that though and have created their own boogeymen for asserting control on the populace. In Indian media Muslims were portrayed as jolly minority characters when I was growing up. Now they are mostly Mumbai mafiosis or terrorists. That’s the hot selling enemy (and Pakistan of course)

Pak awam was smart to know that they are not going to fight the US or Israel. While they didn't like US or israel,

India was the boogeyman the establishment conditioned them to go to war with.

 

[BouncerGuy]

, the best period for Pakistan during the downside was during Musharraf era, another military dictator, not that I am supporting him or anything, just stating some facts.

So-called democracy ruined this country. Musharaff era was the last time Pakistan was known to be doing well. Since then it has just been a nose-dive for the country. People who have come into power did nothing but loot this country and use its resources to build empires for themselves in and outside this country. First of all, such people should be punished, and the money and resources they looted should be brought back to Pakistan, that will be enough for Pakistan to stand on its feet once again.

 

[sweep_shot]

Pakistan have to weed out corruption from all areas of society. That's the #1 reason behind the mess.

With proper plannings, Pakistan can come out of this economic mess. But, it would probably require great sacrifices and discipline.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan have to weed out corruption from all areas of society. That's the #1 reason behind the mess.

With proper plannings, Pakistan can come out of this economic mess. But, it would probably require great sacrifices and discipline.

Unfortunately, there will be nobody left to run this country if we think about removing the root of corruption. Reality is we are corrupt as an individual. Whenever we have a chance to make fool of people for few pennies, we will do it, Sad reality. Accountability has to be started from our very own self.

 

[Red-Indian]

This regime or existing status co people will never change the system. They simply can’t do it. Hybrid model has not and will not work for Pak. Boots have to go back to barracks.

We will talk in 2 years.

You're more in the know than me and the track record of the party in power definitely points to just continuing more of the same.

Couple of things to give Pakistanis hope though

- They've broken with the tradition of appointing their family Munshi to run the country's economy and gone for at least a professional finance guy if not an economist. That would've been a disaster.
- Muhammad Aurangzeb, the new Finance Minister has been pretty clear and reasonable in his priorities. He unambiguously indicated he intends to focus on signing a new Extended Fund Facility to replace the current Standby arrangement...no false bravado etc. and that he intends to stick firmly to the the policy agenda agreed with the IMF
- Oil prices (Pakistan's biggest import) are currently under control and this is with significant production cuts by the OPEC+. So there's hope that they'll stay low in the medium term horizon which will gave Pakistan some fiscal breathing space.

Of course these are only words so as you said, we'll have to wait and see. 2 years are a reasonable time frame to know the direction. Nothing dramatic is going to change but if Pakistan is able to get it's reserves upto the 6 months of imports mark and passes the next 3-4 IMF reviews, then we can talk.

 

[Hitman]

Unfortunately, there will be nobody left to run this country if we think about removing the root of corruption. Reality is we are corrupt as an individual. Whenever we have a chance to make fool of people for few pennies, we will do it, Sad reality. Accountability has to be started from our very own self.

Same here in my country.

 

[daytrader]

lol are you real? Did you read the article? None of what you say is part of the article and proposed solutions. I would rather take advise from some economists than someone who became prime minister just because he was a very good cricketer.

I'm as real as they come. Yes I did read it, it wasn't an article, more like a presentation with fancy infographics. If you read it and followed IK's economic policies than you would know that these are the same things he was trying to address with similar solutions. He wasn't a very good cricketer, he was one the very best and much more

 

[Red-Indian]

there are 241 million people living in Pakistan if everyone chips in 100 rupees we can go a long way

Sorry I couldn't resist. Long way towards what? The debt burden on each Pakistani citizen, while not US/Japan level is still very high for the income levels of the country.

 

[Stewie]

Yup, Thats becos boat load of funds where provided by US for Soviet-Afghan war. Charlie wilson was very tight with Zia

yup. Mush was buddies with Bush W, coalition support funds, deferment of interest and payments to IMF, all for support for WOT. Only if W knew that that money was being used to kill americans...

Pak awam was smart to know that they are not going to fight the US or Israel. While they didn't like US or israel,

India was the boogeyman the establishment conditioned them to go to war with.

what is the basis of your claim the money was being used to kill AMERICANS? If anything the pakistani establishment was in on it the whole time and allowig the drone attacks that killed hundreds if not thousands of pakistanis. I look at the arrangement from a blood money point of view. This was not our war, it was forced on us and our establishment made money from it. but we are are worst off because of it. Pakistani people along the border have suffered as much as the Afghans due to this war.

 

[Stewie]

So-called democracy ruined this country. Musharaff era was the last time Pakistan was known to be doing well. Since then it has just been a nose-dive for the country. People who have come into power did nothing but loot this country and use its resources to build empires for themselves in and outside this country. First of all, such people should be punished, and the money and resources they looted should be brought back to Pakistan, that will be enough for Pakistan to stand on its feet once again.

I think those facts needs to be looked at under decent enough light so we dont arrive at superficial conclusions.

DUring Zia and Musharraf, Pakistan was willing or force parnters in wars in Afghanistan. That opened quite a few doors for us economically. It does not mean that the military leaders were more honest, were better planners and leaders. IN fact it is quite the opposite. When Pakistan had hit the proverbial "jackpot" those monies could have been invested in expanding our economy, strengthening our exports, investing in industry.

So the money was coming in, but we did not use it wisely. MILITARY LEADERSHIP is great at fighting but governance is not what they are trained for and they have no idea how to build a nation. In that regard they failed. On top of it, they back cronie democractic governments who were corrupt to the core and squandered all that wealth away.

My view is if we had honest deomcoratic leadership at the time, we would have made better of the situation and things would not be so bad today. THat being said, overall, I am totally against our involvement in the mess. I would have handled it tactfully, providing whatever support our meager resources can provide but would not dived headlong into it. I would have also negotiated better deals with the US for our partnership, They always cried about us in the media but then came running to us with cash when they needed our bases and logistical support.

I am glad they pulled out of Afghanistan. Now we are like a drug addict who has been forced to go clean.

 

[Red-Indian]

I think those facts needs to be looked at under decent enough light so we dont arrive at superficial conclusions.

DUring Zia and Musharraf, Pakistan was willing or force parnters in wars in Afghanistan. That opened quite a few doors for us economically. It does not mean that the military leaders were more honest, were better planners and leaders. IN fact it is quite the opposite. When Pakistan had hit the proverbial "jackpot" those monies could have been invested in expanding our economy, strengthening our exports, investing in industry.

So the money was coming in, but we did not use it wisely. MILITARY LEADERSHIP is great at fighting but governance is not what they are trained for and they have no idea how to build a nation. In that regard they failed. On top of it, they back cronie democractic governments who were corrupt to the core and squandered all that wealth away.

My view is if we had honest deomcoratic leadership at the time, we would have made better of the situation and things would not be so bad today. THat being said, overall, I am totally against our involvement in the mess. I would have handled it tactfully, providing whatever support our meager resources can provide but would not dived headlong into it. I would have also negotiated better deals with the US for our partnership, They always cried about us in the media but then came running to us with cash when they needed our bases and logistical support.

I am glad they pulled out of Afghanistan. Now we are like a drug addict who has been forced to go clean.

Well said. I wonder if there is the wider realisation in Pakistan that the consumption driven growth spurts during the Military dictatorships of Zia and Musharraf were like heroin rushes that were no doubt very pleasurable but neither sustainable nor healthy the in longer term. The facts that there are still educated mods on this site who believe that was the best period for Pakistan doesn't bode well.

For example, it's only a tiny, tiny minority in India who still believe that the country was better off during the Emergency because the trains ran on time and the real population controls were in place through forced sterilizations.

 

[Kianig89]

Ban all luxury cars luxury phones etc, IK tried a drive to reduce poverty by introducing chicken farming but he was ridiculed there is no fancy solution to this, be self sufficient live within your means that is the basic thing, increase the tax net

 

[Cover Drive Six]

there are 241 million people living in Pakistan if everyone chips in 100 rupees we can go a long way

Thats 24cr * 100 = 2400 Cr Rs (in PKR)
= 86 million USD
This money isn't even enough to cover the annual Chinese interest.

 

[Stewie]

Ban all luxury cars luxury phones etc, IK tried a drive to reduce poverty by introducing chicken farming but he was ridiculed there is no fancy solution to this, be self sufficient live within your means that is the basic thing, increase the tax net

Most people dont realize this but there is a proper chicken farming mafia, a sugar mill mafia, basically everything that is consumed in quantity and therefore in high demand mafia in pakistan where they engage in price gouging and fixing and these are elite, well conneced businessmen with ties to political leaders.

in punjab in particular there is ferocious fightback to any such programs that may help reduce the burden on the poor man through such plans. I am sure Imran dicovered that during his time.

 

[FearlessRoar]

The Federal Board of Revenue (FBR) has shared the tax revenue plan with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) delegation during second review talks under the $3 billion Stand by Agreement (SBA), citing sources, ARY News reported.

The FBR in its plan informed the IMF about the tax reforms, and steps to bring 3.1 million retailers and defaulters into the tax net to increase the country’s revenue.

The delegation was also briefed about structural reforms in the FBR and hoped to achieve a tax collection of Rs 9,415 billion.

According to the FBR, the target of IMF set for July to December 2023 was met as the body collected Rs4,468 billion against the set target of Rs4,425 billion.

Earlier, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) called upon Pakistan to revisit the National Finance Commission (NFC) award with the provinces.

Article 160 of the Constitution authorizes the president to approve the distribution of revenues between the federation and the provinces through order of the NFC Award.

The newly formed government informed the IMF delegation that the provincial shares could not be reduced without a constitutional amendment and made all the provinces agree to a new formula.

FBR shares revenue collection plan with IMF

ISLAMABAD: The Federal Board of Revenue (FBR) has shared the tax revenue plan with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) delegation during second review

arynews.tv

 

[FearlessRoar]

FBR is optimistic about achieving a tax collection of Rs 9,415 billion, but will they also ensure that these taxes are collected from all sectors and individuals?

 

[FearlessRoar]

What do you think about how the EU can help Pakistan?

 

[FearlessRoar]

In my opinion, EU can help Pakistan overcome its economic crisis in several ways. Firstly, it can provide financial support through grants, loans, or debt relief to ease immediate financial pressures. Additionally, the EU can assist by opening up trade opportunities for Pakistani goods, which can boost exports and bring in much-needed foreign currency. Moreover, the EU can offer technical assistance and training programs to improve governance, reform institutions, and develop key sectors like taxation and infrastructure. By collaborating on initiatives such as renewable energy and sustainable development, both parties can work towards long-term economic stability and growth. Overall, tapping into the EU's resources and expertise can significantly aid Pakistan in addressing its economic challenges and moving towards a brighter future.

 

[rpant_gabba]

In my opinion, EU can help Pakistan overcome its economic crisis in several ways. Firstly, it can provide financial support through grants, loans, or debt relief to ease immediate financial pressures. Additionally, the EU can assist by opening up trade opportunities for Pakistani goods, which can boost exports and bring in much-needed foreign currency. Moreover, the EU can offer technical assistance and training programs to improve governance, reform institutions, and develop key sectors like taxation and infrastructure. By collaborating on initiatives such as renewable energy and sustainable development, both parties can work towards long-term economic stability and growth. Overall, tapping into the EU's resources and expertise can significantly aid Pakistan in addressing its economic challenges and moving towards a brighter future.

EU can do those for a lot of the developing countries and many of them closer to EU.

Why would EU bother about Pakistan and it’s self created problems?

 

[rpant_gabba]

what is the basis of your claim the money was being used to kill AMERICANS? If anything the pakistani establishment was in on it the whole time and allowig the drone attacks that killed hundreds if not thousands of pakistanis. I look at the arrangement from a blood money point of view. This was not our war, it was forced on us and our establishment made money from it. but we are are worst off because of it. Pakistani people along the border have suffered as much as the Afghans due to this war.

So you ignored the funding and deferred payments part for the dictators which made them look good.

Who do you think funded the haqqani group?

Mush’s claim to fame even among many pak fans was is funding of anti American insurgents using American funds.

 

[Stewie]

So you ignored the funding and deferred payments part for the dictators which made them look good.

Who do you think funded the haqqani group?

Mush’s claim to fame even among many pak fans was is funding of anti American insurgents using American funds.

Haqqani group has been regularly funded by the US. They have been used as tools by whoever is in power. Pakistan has always denied any association with them. Like tons of other sometimes mujahideen, sometimes terrorists (based on the narrative) they may have connections in pakistan due to the soviet war but to say they were funded by Pakistan is a bunch of baloney.

Regarding your claim about Musharraf, please furnish some evidence.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Haqqani group has been regularly funded by the US. They have been used as tools by whoever is in power. Pakistan has always denied any association with them. Like tons of other sometimes mujahideen, sometimes terrorists (based on the narrative) they may have connections in pakistan due to the soviet war but to say they were funded by Pakistan is a bunch of baloney.

Regarding your smug claim about Musharraf, please furnish some evidence.

Sure, after 9/11 us was directly funding a terrorist network which lists US as its enemy

Guessing you might gotten confused with ambassador haqqani

 

[BouncerGuy]

The Haqqani group has nothing to do with this thread. The main idea of this thread was to provide a solution to get Pakistan out of the economic crisis. Discussing terrorists or no-terrorist is not the topic here. Please stay on topic.

For topic thing, IMF has never helped any country to get out of economic troubles. Never seen 1 single nation that progressed because they took stupid loans from IMF. IMF is like a quick-sand and Pakistan is stuck in it now.