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India v England | 2nd Test | Visakhapatnam | Nov 17-21, 2016 | Day 2

Mamoon said:
I am a fan of enforcing the follow-on. Disappointing to see how rarely it is enforced these days, and I perfectly understand the logic/reasoning behind it.
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In India on such a wicket, there is a real danger of Kolkata 2001
 
Mamoon said:
I am a fan of enforcing the follow-on. Disappointing to see how rarely it is enforced these days, and I perfectly understand the logic/reasoning behind it.
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Never a good idea on a pitch which will wear down and will be difficult on day 5.
 
Zahid87 said:
No, not really, but NZ are NZ against spin. And, not taking anything away from Ashwin, conditions were in his favour.

England used to be inept at playing spin, but now work really hard on it, so would look at England as a much tougher test. Was expecting Ashwin to start getting England into knots as world no 1 bowler. But not seen it so far.

Its one thing doing it when the pitch is worn out and turning big, but he has to at least put some pressure on the batsmen when the pitch is ok too.

He has two left handers now, on a reasonable surface. Lets see how he goes.
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He has been troubling all batsmen including Root constantly through this spell. Your bias is showing
 
Indiafan said:
Lol, lets remove all those wickets of Wasim and waqar which were of batsmen playing bat shots. Oh no, they average over 35 now

What logic is this? Anything to put Indian players down? Ashwin did have to notice Duckett's stance and pitch the ball exactly where it needed to beat the bat. He did have to pull the ball back knowing Root will charge out of frusturation
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Not saying take the wickets away. It happens. Bowlers will bowl well, and sometimes batsmen will get away with it. All I am saying is I want to see what the hype is about. How Ashwin has now evolved, and can land the ball where he wants, etc.

Just not seen it yet, thats all. Calm down.
 
Indiafan said:
Wait, what? There are 3 tests still left
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They got a pitch that was not tailor-made for them and they came out second best. India is repeating the same mistake as Pakistan did/does in the UAE.

Win matches so one-dimensionally and apply the same formula/recipe so often that as soon as you are out of your comfort zone, you don't know how to deal with it.
 
Zahid87 said:
No, not really, but NZ are NZ against spin. And, not taking anything away from Ashwin, conditions were in his favour.

England used to be inept at playing spin, but now work really hard on it, so would look at England as a much tougher test. Was expecting Ashwin to start getting England into knots as world no 1 bowler. But not seen it so far.

Its one thing doing it when the pitch is worn out and turning big, but he has to at least put some pressure on the batsmen when the pitch is ok too.

He has two left handers now, on a reasonable surface. Lets see how he goes.
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Reg the working out aspect...I asked. He worked out batsmen against NZ big time.

Today, he is fine. I know performance here isn't gonna cancel out what he did in Rajkot where he simply didn't get into any proper rhythm and plus his weaknesses got a bit exposed.

But wait till the whole series ends.

Some of the spells he bowled in WI were truly amazing (basically what he did in the air). He is slowly getting back I guess. This bowling is fine but defo not his best.
 
Mamoon said:
India and Ashwin got badly exposed in the first Test. This result and performance is meaningless.

England is a better team than India overall.
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No there not, England was exposed vs Bangladesh and Pakistan.
 
Should enforce the follow on if they roll England for under 150.
 
Mamoon said:
They got a pitch that was not tailor-made for them and they came out second best. India is repeating the same mistake as Pakistan did/does in the UAE.

Win matches so one-dimensionally and apply the same formula/recipe so often that as soon as you are out of your comfort zone, you don't know how to deal with it.
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It was a flat pitch with nothing in it for the bowlers. Doubt any team in the world could have forced a result on that pitch
 
According to Michael Vaughan it was a good strategy by Kohli letting his bowlers be comfortable and forcing Root, etc to make mistakes. Now he will tighten the screnws
 
Indiafan said:
He has been troubling all batsmen including Root constantly through this spell. Your bias is showing
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Zahid is the most unbiased PPer bro (see his other posts).

He is asking a general question.

Its fair to expect a number 1 bowler to trouble bats on an unresponsive pitch which Ash didn't in Rajkot.
 
Indiafan said:
It was a flat pitch with nothing in it for the bowlers. Doubt any team in the world could have forced a result on that pitch
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England couldn't win the Test even on that!

Won the toss, India playing 5 batsmen and England with a much deeper batting line up, yet India still almost matched their first innings score.

The best England managed despite having a pitch tailor made for them was a draw.
 
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Bairstow won't last long on here, doesn't use a straight bat enough to survive on a wicket with quick turn. It was OK in the UAE where the wickets are really slow but it's not good enough on this track.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Zahid is the most unbiased PPer bro (see his other posts).

He is asking a general question.

Its fair to expect a number 1 bowler to trouble bats on an unresponsive pitch which Ash didn't in Rajkot.
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You made this point last time. Every single bowler in history, including the greatest of greats (name any) have both had bad days and struggled on really bad pitches. Heck Warne got carted around on Indian pitches. Whta you are expecting from Ashwin is simply inhuman and has not been achieved by Bradman or Lille or Akram. That is, be on top every single innings/match
 
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Mamoon said:
India and Ashwin got badly exposed in the first Test. This result and performance is meaningless.

England is a better team than India overall.
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England scored huge in the first innings. Everyone thought India would crumble under pressure. The fightback, the resilience by India batsmen made sure India didn't lose the match. Could have even won the game if not for dropped catches, taking England lightly. If England manage to draw this, England is definitely better than India irrespective of one's opinion. Seems very unlikely though. This series is going to be 4-0 or 3-0 to India.
 
Eng top order again exposed as they were exposed in bangladesh.Eng are worse team against little turney wicket. They only can play on flat or bouncy wicket. That's ends story.
 
Indiafan said:
You made this point last time. Every single bowler in history, including the greatest of greats (name any) have both had bad days and struggled on really bad pitches. Heck Warne got carted around on Indian pitches
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Yes which is why Ash isn't some lulloo due to 1 failure.

But for others who haven't watched him...they will only rate him when he does something in an unresponsive pitch naa....
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Sad indictment of the spin playing quality if fans think THIS condition is tough to survive.

Put Pujara in here and watch the pitch turn decent.

Ducket's angled bat is village level batting.
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Said it na i have gut feeling that eng can't survive this after seeng moeen getting saha on that sharp turn

Whether call still its easy pitch to bat or not but eng can't afford this test
 
The SA's will rise to number 1 again.

Rabada, Steyn, Philander, Morkel, Maharaj, Amla, AB, Faf, Duminy and Gilly Jr
mr-upon-realizing-i-had-in-fact-deleted-my-browser-history-before-my-parents-used-the-computer-60717.gif
 
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sensible-indian-fan said:
Zahid is the most unbiased PPer bro (see his other posts).

He is asking a general question.

Its fair to expect a number 1 bowler to trouble bats on an unresponsive pitch which Ash didn't in Rajkot.
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Whatever you say I believe RA is an akhada bowler. Akhada pitch makes him look so good.Without turning pitch he can do nothing and this is not a sign of ATG bowler and that concludes him not a ATG material. I rate him below yasir even par as jaddu.
 
Nil Dhumrojal said:
Whatever you say I believe RA is an akhada bowler. Akhada pitch makes him look so good.Without turning pitch he can do nothing and this is not a sign of ATG bowler and that concludes him not a ATG material. I rate him below yasir even par as jaddu.
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Blah blah blah blah

Don't have to repeat a point 10,000 times. You made your point. Now go and sit in a corner.

No one rates him as ATG anyway. He has a lot to prove. A bit more after Rajkot's horror show.
 
Hasan123 said:
No there not, England was exposed vs Bangladesh and Pakistan.
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Drawing 1-1 on Bangladeshi rank turners was impressive. Australia and NZ will get whitewashed there, perhaps SA will draw there, and even they struggled last year on much better pitches.

Pakistan also got badly exposed today on a green pitch.

The number 1 and number 2 ranked teams are becoming increasingly one-dimensional, but this what over-reliance on spinners does.
 
Again, all Indian pp'ers. This was more along the lines of what I was asking. Ashwin is starting to ask a question nearly every ball.

And no one is asking to see Ashwin turn it square on flat pitches. But to be effective at least. Either by building pressure, tying a batsmen down, etc. In Rajkot....he almost looked innocous, after all the hype as well.
 
Cook, Duck and Root were out to bad shots. Hameed was run out, and Ali padded one away that he shouldn't have. None of the wickets have really been about the pitch.
 
Aman said:
England couldn't win the Test even on that!

Won the toss, India playing 5 batsmen and England with a much deeper batting line up, yet India still almost matched their first innings score.

The best England managed despite having a pitch tailor made for them was a draw.
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India will get thrashed 9/10 times on a pitch tailor-made for England. That pitch wasn't tailor-made for England; it was in fact more favorable for India but they had to work a lot harder than they normally do on tailor-made pitches like this one today, and they got exposed because they were unable to force a result.

The spinners were toothless and go out-bowled by Rashid and Moeen.
 
Mamoon said:
India will get thrashed 9/10 times on a pitch tailor-made for England. That pitch wasn't tailor-made for England; it was in fact more favorable for India but they had to work a lot harder than they normally do on tailor-made pitches like this one today, and they got exposed because they were unable to force a result.

The spinners were toothless and go out-bowled by Rashid and Moeen.
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Don't you think teams are allowed 1 bad game?

Drop catches, Ash was horrible, lost the toss...etc.

English spinners were good but they bowled 100% of their overs with India under the pump. Screw ups happen.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Don't you think teams are allowed 1 bad game?

Drop catches, Ash was horrible, lost the toss...etc.

English spinners were good but they bowled 100% of their overs with India under the pump. Screw ups happen.
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Question is, why did Ashwin look horrible all of a sudden on the first pitch that did not suit him.
 
Mamoon said:
Drawing 1-1 on Bangladeshi rank turners was impressive. Australia and NZ will get whitewashed there, perhaps SA will draw there, and even they struggled last year on much better pitches.

Pakistan also got badly exposed today on a green pitch.

The number 1 and number 2 ranked teams are becoming increasingly one-dimensional, but this what over-reliance on spinners does.
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Being a top team who played 10 test every year against an all time minnow who was playing a test after 14 months and hardly play 3 test per year is not impressive at all.
 
Mamoon said:
India will get thrashed 9/10 times on a pitch tailor-made for England. That pitch wasn't tailor-made for England; it was in fact more favorable for India but they had to work a lot harder than they normally do on tailor-made pitches like this one today, and they got exposed because they were unable to force a result.

The spinners were toothless and go out-bowled by Rashid and Moeen.
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A flat pitch will always favor the side with the stronger batting line up. India were playing 5 specialist against a side which had 8 capable batsmen + 3 others who are more than capable of making handy contributions. Despite that, India almost matched their first innings score while contending with scoreboard pressure as well.
 
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Mamoon said:
India will get thrashed 9/10 times on a pitch tailor-made for England. That pitch wasn't tailor-made for England; it was in fact more favorable for India but they had to work a lot harder than they normally do on tailor-made pitches like this one today, and they got exposed because they were unable to force a result.

The spinners were toothless and go out-bowled by Rashid and Moeen.
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India won against England in Lord's after batting first on a green track that turned brown on day 2.

That's as favor for England as it could get.

Of course, England is a superior side but put things in perspective dude.
 
India's batting is top class, but their bowling is overrated like Pakistan's.

However, Pakistan's batting is also overrated so overall, India > Pakistan.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
India won against England in Lord's after batting first on a green track that turned brown on day 2.

That's as favor for England as it could get.

Of course, England is a superior side but put things in perspective dude.
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That is why I said 9/10.

Lord's 2014 was a one-off. A bit of a fluke against an England side in disarray and Ishant have the spell of his life.

2014 was the best time to tour England in years. They were under the pump because of the Ashes battering and SL also won there.
 
Nil Dhumrojal said:
Being a top team who played 10 test every year against an all time minnow who was playing a test after 14 months and hardly play 3 test per year is not impressive at all.
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Losing a Test at home on tailor-made pitches against a team that struggles on rank turners isn't impressive either.
 
Mamoon said:
Drawing 1-1 on Bangladeshi rank turners was impressive. Australia and NZ will get whitewashed there, perhaps SA will draw there, and even they struggled last year on much better pitches.

Pakistan also got badly exposed today on a green pitch.

The number 1 and number 2 ranked teams are becoming increasingly one-dimensional, but this what over-reliance on spinners does.
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Impressive? English pundits over here were saying the opposite to you. And according to you Australia is going to beat us something which England can't do home or away.

England spinners are rubbish lol, take out Jimmy and Broad there bowling isn't even that good. Also there batting has depth but it's not convincing at all.
 
English bat so deep, can't relax till they are 8 down esp Bairstow. I was wishing them being 4 down tonight, will take 110/5.
 
Mamoon said:
Question is, why did Ashwin look horrible all of a sudden on the first pitch that did not suit him.
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I have explained the reasons in other threads.

First game after a break.

No proper line and length or rhythm.

Hard pitch to bowl.

Got a bit exposed due to his body issues.

If he was bowling at his BEST and still looked innocuous, we can say he is pure trash but with all his line and length, flight, etc gone...he was bad.

Its not like other spinners haven't had horror show games. There is a long list of good spinners going for 2/180 in Asia.

Let him get back to his best and see if he still clocks those bad numbers.
 
Hasan123 said:
Impressive? English pundits over here were saying the opposite to you. And according to you Australia is going to beat us something which England can't do home or away.

England spinners are rubbish lol, take out Jimmy and Broad there bowling isn't even that good. Also there batting has depth but it's not convincing at all.
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I for one cannot wait till the SA's dismantle the English.

Rabada in a years time will be untouchable, he'll make the English relive the 2014 Ashes :mj
 
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Aman said:
A flat pitch will always favor the side with the stronger batting line up. India were playing 5 specialist against a side which had 8 capable batsmen + 3 others who are more than capable of making handy contributions. Despite that, India almost matched their first innings score while contending with scoreboard pressure as well.
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There are different types of flat pitches. Not all flat pitches are the same.

That pitch was flat but it didn't have enough pace and bounce, and there was enough spin in the pitch to force mistakes provided you bowl well which India couldn't because of their reliance on turners.

The fact that English spinners bowled better than Indian spinners says it all.

That pitch was not the type of flat pitches you get overseas; it was more like a UAE style flat wicket and India should still have won that match.
 
Mamoon said:
Losing a Test at home on tailor-made pitches against a team that struggles on rank turners isn't impressive either.
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from a all time minnow in test you cant expect more. But you also know that it was bangladesh's series overall though they end in draw.
 
Mamoon said:
There are different types of flat pitches. Not all flat pitches are the same.

That pitch was flat but it didn't have enough pace and bounce, and there was enough spin in the pitch to force mistakes provided you bowl well which India couldn't because of their reliance on turners.

The fact that English spinners bowled better than Indian spinners says it all.

That pitch was not the type of flat pitches you get overseas; it was more like a UAE style flat wicket and India should still have won that match.
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That was more down to India dropping catches, otherwise they would have taken a pretty handy first innings lead. Now that's embarrassing, that too against a team which is a batsmen short.
 
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Hasan123 said:
Impressive? English pundits over here were saying the opposite to you. And according to you Australia is going to beat us something which England can't do home or away.

England spinners are rubbish lol, take out Jimmy and Broad there bowling isn't even that good. Also there batting has depth but it's not convincing at all.
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English pundits have a strong sense of entitlement. They feel that England is supposed to win every series. What they say is irrelevant, but the disappointment was more due to England throwing the second Test away from a winning position. Overall, 1-1 on those pitches was a good outcome.

Pakistan got lucky in England. Anderson was not at his best because of his injury and Stokes played only one match. The conditions at Lord's and The Oval also helped us and had we toured in May like Sri Lanka, we would have lost just like we got thrashed at Old Trafford which were more like normal English conditions.
 
Aman said:
I for one cannot wait till the SA's dismantle the English.

Rabada in a years time will be untouchable, he'll make the English relive the 2014 Ashes :mj
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South Africa have a decent record in England.

Rabada will be key also hopefully Steyn is fit. Vernon will also be handful. Should be a good series.
 
Aman said:
That was more down to India dropping catches, otherwise they would have taken a pretty handy first innings lead. Now that's embarrassing, that too against a team which is a batsmen short.
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Dropped catches and poor fielding is part of the package. What is embarrassing is what NZ did in India and what Pakistan did in NZ today.

England did well in the first Test. No one expected/expects them to win the series, and a lot of people were predicting a whitewash, but England is not Australia.
 
Mamoon said:
There are different types of flat pitches. Not all flat pitches are the same.

That pitch was flat but it didn't have enough pace and bounce, and there was enough spin in the pitch to force mistakes provided you bowl well which India couldn't because of their reliance on turners.

The fact that English spinners bowled better than Indian spinners says it all.

That pitch was not the type of flat pitches you get overseas; it was more like a UAE style flat wicket and India should still have won that match.
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Same way every spin track isn't the same.

Zip and speed of turn matters.

If Pujara had reviewed the DRS, India may well have ended the day with 170/2 with everyone calling it a tough pitch.

There are turners in domestic that are high scoring draws. In fact, you could call Rajkot a decent seam track cos the ball was jagging around a bit. It doesn't work that ways.

Life from a pitch matters.

A track with even lesser spin but more grip would be even more slow scoring than Rajkot and result oriented.

There are lot of factors that make up a pitch's threat.
 
Mamoon said:
Dropped catches and poor fielding is part of the package. What is embarrassing is what NZ did in India and what Pakistan did in NZ today.

England did well in the first Test. No one expected/expects them to win the series, and a lot of people were predicting a whitewash, but England is not Australia.
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England are 90/5 on a wicket which is more similar to the ones we had... unlike England, we didn't have a series in Bangladesh to get use to pitches which significantly assist spinners..
 
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Mamoon said:
English pundits have a strong sense of entitlement. They feel that England is supposed to win every series. What they say is irrelevant, but the disappointment was more due to England throwing the second Test away from a winning position. Overall, 1-1 on those pitches was a good outcome.

Pakistan got lucky in England. Anderson was not at his best because of his injury and Stokes played only one match. The conditions at Lord's and The Oval also helped us and had we toured in May like Sri Lanka, we would have lost just like we got thrashed at Old Trafford which were more like normal English conditions.
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But England should be beating a team who haven't won a game against a top ranked side in many years of playing test cricket. If Pakistan drew that series you would be extremely critical even though you say our batting line up and batting vs spin is ovverated.

I agree but your critiscm of Pakistan is always on ifs. If Pakistan was lucky in England than England was lucky last year when they beat South Africa without Steyn and competley out of form team. England was lucky in the 1st test that Ashwin was out form and the pitch wasn't a rank turner.

Pakistan might have had some luck in recent times but believe me England have had plenty of luck in recent times also.
 
Anyways...I too think SA could be the best side in the world.

They are shaping up into a scary unit that can perform everywhere.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Anyways...I too think SA could be the best side in the world.

They are shaping up into a scary unit that can perform everywhere.
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Be interesting to see how they do in Asia when Ab and Amla have gone. Other than De kock and Bavuma don't know about any other young batters coming through
 
JaDed said:
Don't think in Asia they would be that great.
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They are developing.

They will figure something out.

Amla and ABD are gun.

Also on pure rank turners in Bangladesh and SL, they may even figure out a way to win.

In India, it may be harder.

Steyn was injured in 2015 and you know what kind of a bowler he would have been had he played against us.

Imagine Steyn, Rabada and Philander steaming in followed by Maharaj, Tahir and Piedt on a rank turner.

It will be hard man.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] who's going to save the queen when Rabada and co. come knocking? :)
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
They are developing.

They will figure something out.

Amla and ABD are gun.

Also on pure rank turners in Bangladesh and SL, they may even figure out a way to win.

In India, it may be harder.

Steyn was injured in 2015 and you know what kind of a bowler he would have been had he played against us.

Imagine Steyn, Rabada and Philander steaming in followed by Maharaj, Tahir and Piedt on a rank turner.

It will be hard man.
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Steyn doesn't have much time left sadly. He will be 34 by the time he can bowl again. I would not be surprised if he announced his retirement next year.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
They are developing.

They will figure something out.

Amla and ABD are gun.

Also on pure rank turners in Bangladesh and SL, they may even figure out a way to win.

In India, it may be harder.

Steyn was injured in 2015 and you know what kind of a bowler he would have been had he played against us.

Imagine Steyn, Rabada and Philander steaming in followed by Maharaj, Tahir and Piedt on a rank turner.

It will be hard man.
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What type of pitch do you think India will offer when Bangladesh visit them???
 
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