India's World Cup 2019 fate is sealed due to their weak middle-order

[Smudger]

Disclaimar: Even though I am a Pak supporter but I have nothing against team India. You can have different opinion
I think Ind with this team can never win the 19 wc. A middle order of rayudu, karthik and dhoni will not bail you out when chasing 270+ in a KO match because top 3 will be under pressure because pf burden of expectation and the knowledge of their importance to the outcome of the match. Then some posters will start crying about india having a bad day.
Ind are bilateral kings. They look unbeatable when there is no knockout pressure . India have not won a icc trophy in last 6 years . I think India's problem is deeper than just having a bad day. India trust too much on experience. Aftet CT it was perfect time to try no talent but instead kohli brought back the oldies. The result will be for everyone to see when indi's top 3 fail in a pressure match.
Intresting to note that india's top 3 failed in 2015 qf, sf and ct final. You dont win matches with players playing because of experience. Players should selected on skills and not on experience.

 

[Abdullah]

That's what we want.

 

[RickyG]

Don't tempt fate my friend.

This thread might come bite you in your behind.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Thanks

 

[Sachin136]

The top 3 don't get intimidated by big matches. Dhawan and Kohli especially thrive under pressure.

And India will rarely have to chase 300+, due to Bumrah, Kuldeep, Chahal, Shami, etc.

 

[geraltofrivia]

India will rarely have to chase 250+. This is a GOAT attack.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The top 3 don't get intimidated by big matches. Dhawan and Kohli especially thrive under pressure.

And India will rarely have to chase 300+, due to Bumrah, Kuldeep, Chahal, Shami, etc.

Whole post is based on India "chasing" a total. There is a good chance they might set a target.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Agree. No player who can absorb pressure in crunch situations. Players like Gambhir, Yuvraj, and Raina used to enjoy pressure situations

 

[Napa]

Disclaimar: Even though I am a Pak supporter but I have nothing against team India. You can have different opinion
I think Ind with this team can never win the 19 wc. A middle order of rayudu, karthik and dhoni will not bail you out when chasing 270+ in a KO match because top 3 will be under pressure because pf burden of expectation and the knowledge of their importance to the outcome of the match. Then some posters will start crying about india having a bad day.
Ind are bilateral kings. They look unbeatable when there is no knockout pressure . India have not won a icc trophy in last 6 years . I think India's problem is deeper than just having a bad day. India trust too much on experience. Aftet CT it was perfect time to try no talent but instead kohli brought back the oldies. The result will be for everyone to see when indi's top 3 fail in a pressure match.
Intresting to note that india's top 3 failed in 2015 qf, sf and ct final. You dont win matches with players playing because of experience. Players should selected on skills and not on experience.

Stats for the last two years (avg/SR):

Rayadu 51.6/88
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Karthik 53.1/76
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Dhoni 52.2/82
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

3 middle order batsmen each averaging 50+ is weak? Also, Rahul may recover his form and be in the team.

In comparison, the 3 Pakistani batsmen after the first 3 (Imam, Zaman and Azam):

Hafeez 38.3/84
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Malik 39/85
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Sarfaraz 32.9/86
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=2;template=results;type=batting;view=series

All 3 Indian middle order batsmen have about the same stats as Pakistan's best batsman Azam 51.7/80

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

 

[cr7great]

we already know this india are not going to win this world cup.
we are going to win next world cup.

 

[troodon]

Its open knowledge that Indian middle order is brittle. Just because the oldies are playing well the past few ODI's does not mean they are back to form.

Totally agree with OP that when chasing 300 in a knock out match with the score line showing 50/3, we are doomed. Rayadu/MSD and DK will run with their tail between their legs.

We know MSD is not going anywhere, but Rayadu must go. He is an average batsman and his fitness and quickness is mediocre. Jadhav also is useless. These guys will wilt under pressure.

I can see someone like England or NZ or SA beating India when the Top 3 fail.

 

[Wahid1234]

Disclaimar: Even though I am a Pak supporter but I have nothing against team India. You can have different opinion
I think Ind with this team can never win the 19 wc. A middle order of rayudu, karthik and dhoni will not bail you out when chasing 270+ in a KO match because top 3 will be under pressure because pf burden of expectation and the knowledge of their importance to the outcome of the match. Then some posters will start crying about india having a bad day.
Ind are bilateral kings. They look unbeatable when there is no knockout pressure . India have not won a icc trophy in last 6 years . I think India's problem is deeper than just having a bad day. India trust too much on experience. Aftet CT it was perfect time to try no talent but instead kohli brought back the oldies. The result will be for everyone to see when indi's top 3 fail in a pressure match.
Intresting to note that india's top 3 failed in 2015 qf, sf and ct final. You dont win matches with players playing because of experience. Players should selected on skills and not on experience.

This has to be the most absurd and ridiculous comment and thread ever. A team that is absolutely destroying New Zealand and has absolutelt walloped other teams all I've the world without they best bowler Bumrah even playing has no chance to win the world cup lmaobroke of the year. Raydu just played a wonderful innings against new Zealand stayed unbeaten and made the runs at a strike rate of 100 very under rated batsmen and Dhoni is literally back to his best with his recent performances. India are going to walk this upcoming world cup and hammer every team I'm sorry to say they are streets ahead of every team barring England maybe. Im a pakistan fan and let's be honest it's india's to lose the upcoming world cup.

 

[rhony]

Its open knowledge that Indian middle order is brittle. Just because the oldies are playing well the past few ODI's does not mean they are back to form.

Totally agree with OP that when chasing 300 in a knock out match with the score line showing 50/3, we are doomed. Rayadu/MSD and DK will run with their tail between their legs.

We know MSD is not going anywhere, but Rayadu must go. He is an average batsman and his fitness and quickness is mediocre. Jadhav also is useless. These guys will wilt under pressure.

I can see someone like England or NZ or SA beating India when the Top 3 fail.

Chasing 300 with 50/3, every team is doomed. Pant or Pandya or Gill wont score 250 in a WC Semi final

 

[cr7great]

agreed fully.

 

[AuxiliA]

BCCI shouldn't bother to send their team to the WC, because they can't chase 300 after being 25/3.

 

[giri26]

This is absolutely funny as no team in the world can say that they can chase 270+ total after being 25-50/3. When chasing a huge total your top order needs to fire. This is same for every team, not just for India. Probably 1-2 times out of 10 your middle order can help you win a game after losing the top order but that is rare. Example, India chasing 350 against England after being 60/4 in an ODI in India with Jadhav and Kohli scoring a 100. It is very rare.

 

[rhony]

This is absolutely funny as no team in the world can say that they can chase 270+ total after being 25-50/3. When chasing a huge total your top order needs to fire. This is same for every team, not just for India. Probably 1-2 times out of 10 your middle order can help you win a game after losing the top order but that is rare. Example, India chasing 350 against England after being 60/4 in an ODI in India with Jadhav and Kohli scoring a 100. It is very rare.

It's equivalent being, if Bumrah, BK, Kuldeep fail, the other bowlers won't be able to win defending 200.

 

[someone21]

You call India as the weak middle order yet relative to other teams, its one of the best. A bad post really.

India middle looks is obviously weak due to its super top order.

 

[gazza619]

After Chahal and Kuldeep in the line up, I feel India does even need to chase 300.

They will most likely bowl teams out for 240/250 with such a dymanic bowling attack.

 

[geraltofrivia]

India has a decent middle order - far better than most teams. They just pale in comparison with their top 3 which consists of the GOAT, an ATG and a very good player in his own right (especially in ICC tourneys).

 

[PakLFC]

The middle order is scoring plenty off rune. Far better then ours for sure, they will perform in the WC when it matters. Taking care of the NZ in away conditions is no mean feat.

 

[mohan11]

Yeah, we saw it in UAE

 

[Snak3eye5]

Had India filled it’s middle order with younger blood with Gill, Pants and Shaw-they might have had a chance against better teams but India’s middle order will be their Achilles heel with old man Dhoni, fat boy Jhadav and once in a blue moon hackadu. The blueprint to beat India was established by Pakistan during ct2017 where Aamir easily took Kohlis wicket and India couldn’t chase 350. Once you get India 34/3 the game is in the bag and their middle order will not be able to put up a fight. Most teams will plan for this and India might get past the first stage but that’s where it ends where their luck will run out.

 

[iPakistani]

Stats for the last two years (avg/SR):

Rayadu 51.6/88
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Karthik 53.1/76
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Dhoni 52.2/82
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

3 middle order batsmen each averaging 50+ is weak? Also, Rahul may recover his form and be in the team.

In comparison, the 3 Pakistani batsmen after the first 3 (Imam, Zaman and Azam):

Hafeez 38.3/84
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Malik 39/85
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Sarfaraz 32.9/86
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=2;template=results;type=batting;view=series

All 3 Indian middle order batsmen have about the same stats as Pakistan's best batsman Azam 51.7/80

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Dhoni and Karthik averaging 76 and 82 in the middle-order in this era is not good enough. The top 3 will get India off to a start but its upto the middle order to increase the scoring rate to make scores 300+.

 

[Napa]

Had India filled it’s middle order with younger blood with Gill, Pants and Shaw-they might have had a chance against better teams but India’s middle order will be their Achilles heel with old man Dhoni, fat boy Jhadav and once in a blue moon hackadu. The blueprint to beat India was established by Pakistan during ct2017 where Aamir easily took Kohlis wicket and India couldn’t chase 350. <b>Once you get India 34/3 the game is in the bag and their middle order will not be able to put up a fight.</b> Most teams will plan for this and India might get past the first stage but that’s where it ends where their luck will run out.

Taking 3 top order Indian wkts for 34 runs is a bit ambitious. In the Asia Cup Pakistani bowlers conceded 404 runs for 2 top order Indian wickets...

 

[CricketAnalyst]

Stats for the last two years (avg/SR):

Rayadu 51.6/88
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Karthik 53.1/76
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Dhoni 52.2/82
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

3 middle order batsmen each averaging 50+ is weak? Also, Rahul may recover his form and be in the team.

In comparison, the 3 Pakistani batsmen after the first 3 (Imam, Zaman and Azam):

Hafeez 38.3/84
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Malik 39/85
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Sarfaraz 32.9/86
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=2;template=results;type=batting;view=series

All 3 Indian middle order batsmen have about the same stats as Pakistan's best batsman Azam 51.7/80

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Difference is India has literally nothing after the top 7. Pakistan bat deep.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

This is absolutely funny as no team in the world can say that they can chase 270+ total after being 25-50/3. When chasing a huge total your top order needs to fire. This is same for every team, not just for India. Probably 1-2 times out of 10 your middle order can help you win a game after losing the top order but that is rare. Example, India chasing 350 against England after being 60/4 in an ODI in India with Jadhav and Kohli scoring a 100. It is very rare.

That's absolutely untrue.

England can easily chase a big score if they lose early wickets because they all bat.

Also, 270+ isn't even a bench-mark. 320+ is.

Last WC Bangladesh chased a 270+ score after being 12/4.

Lots of teams do hve depth. India have none. Either the batsmen do it or we lose.

 

[WengerOut]

That's absolutely untrue.

England can easily chase a big score if they lose early wickets because they all bat.

Also, 270+ isn't even a bench-mark. 320+ is.

Last WC Bangladesh chased a 270+ score after being 12/4.

Lots of teams do hve depth. India have none. Either the batsmen do it or we lose.

There will be exceptions. No team can be confident of chasing 300 after being 50 odd for three. They might, like 2 in 10 innings. India chased 350 odd after being 60 for 4 couple of years ago against England. Those are like very rare.

 

[jnaveen1980]

That's absolutely untrue.

England can easily chase a big score if they lose early wickets because they all bat.

Also, 270+ isn't even a bench-mark. 320+ is.

Last WC Bangladesh chased a 270+ score after being 12/4.

Lots of teams do hve depth. India have none. Either the batsmen do it or we lose.

Hongkong almost gave a scare in the Asia cup. When we batted we had an opportunity to get over 300. But our middle order sucked balls.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Difference is India has literally nothing after the top 7. Pakistan bat deep.

yup Lower order is zilch for us. Basically if top order is gone entire par total has to be achieved by middle order. Current batting struggled agianst hongkong to accelerate in the middle.

 

[Napa]

Difference is India has literally nothing after the top 7. Pakistan bat deep.

If the top 7 wickets don't get you to a winning score, the remaining 3 are unlikely to do anything!

 

[giri26]

That's absolutely untrue.

England can easily chase a big score if they lose early wickets because they all bat.

Also, 270+ isn't even a bench-mark. 320+ is.

Last WC Bangladesh chased a 270+ score after being 12/4.

Lots of teams do hve depth. India have none. Either the batsmen do it or we lose.

Depth does not translate into consistent chases of 270+ after being 3 or 4 down for 50. I said it can happen but it is rare. Lots of teams will struggle despite the depth to chase a 270+ total after losing wickets at the top. Like I said there can be scattered examples of teams winning like I showed, India winning after being 60/4 against England in 2016 but those are anomaly's.

Under 250 is more of a possibility with the top order failure which even India can achieve. If you can show me 10 games or so of any team in recent times who have scored 270+ with top order failure or even 5 I will agree. Random examples here an there does not prove that point. Losing top order puts lots of pressure on a team and even if they have a batting line up until 10, the pressure of a huge total weighs down on any team and when you are talking about a tournament like a World Cup, it is even more difficult to achieve such feat.

 

[jnaveen1980]

If the top 7 wickets don't get you to a winning score, the remaining 3 are unlikely to do anything!

Not seen middle order collapses in the one dayers? India can be 150/3 it could easily become 170/6 when there is a collapse. India would end up with 175. England could end up with 250. Even Pakistan other day after a collapse ended with 207.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Difference is India has literally nothing after the top 7. Pakistan bat deep.

Bhuvi and Kuldeep are not mugs with bat. They don’t have to bat often and hence you don’t see it.

 

[charlie007]

India's middle order is just fine with Pandya, Jadhav, and Dhoni/Karthik. If 7 batsmen are not going to win you a game, it is unlikely 8 will.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Not seen middle order collapses in the one dayers? India can be 150/3 it could easily become 170/6 when there is a collapse. India would end up with 175. England could end up with 250. Even Pakistan other day after a collapse ended with 207.

Yes it can happen. How many times on the flat wickets is the question. That is the reason india wants to have steady batsman in the middle order. Their thinking is that if they do get into a situation of 30/3 batting first then the middle order will steady fast take them to 250 score. They are confident of making a match out of it with good bowling attack. If they are 30/3 chasing the middle order can still chase scores of up to 250 to 270.

They are just betting that they won’t be 30/3 on a 330 wicket. It can happen as it did In CT final but that would be rare and can’t plan for that

 

[charlie007]

That's absolutely untrue.

England can easily chase a big score if they lose early wickets because they all bat.

Also, 270+ isn't even a bench-mark. 320+ is.

Last WC Bangladesh chased a 270+ score after being 12/4.

Lots of teams do hve depth. India have none. Either the batsmen do it or we lose.

It's not about whether other teams can chase 320+ vs some team. It is about any team can chase 320+ vs India and whether India can chase 320+ vs other teams.
I would like to think India will not let other teams score 320+ with their superior bowling, but if they still do then I guess they'd just have to make it. But other than England, I don't see a very high probability that any other team will score majorly against our bowling.

 

[Haripotter]

India should start counting their bilateral victories as it's gonna be ending soon after Sarfaraz takes over the captaincy in the WC2019. We all remember how under the able leadership of Sarfaraz , Pakistan ended India's winning streak. "Sarfaraz dokha nahi dhega"

 

[Dingolfy]

Not seen middle order collapses in the one dayers? India can be 150/3 it could easily become 170/6 when there is a collapse. India would end up with 175. England could end up with 250. Even Pakistan other day after a collapse ended with 207.

Rayudu and Dhoni are slow, but certainly can tuk-tuk and prevent collapses if needed. They are good to get scores near to 270-280. Problem comes when we get 320 plus pattas where they don't have the firepower to get it up.

 

[Unleashed]

Apart from England, there isn't a middle order in the world who can chase 300 after 34/3 in most of the situations.

Such a cringe worthy thread.

 

[tijnar]

How many will pay score when they are 30/3..120 or 200 with loose hitting s from tailenders

 

[latecut]

A side with stronger top order will not need the services of its middle order for more than ten odd overs in an innings. A side with stronger bowling and stronger top order will defeat a team with "strong" middle order whose top order batting is poor and whose bowlers are unable to bowl the opposition out for small totals.

If every team play to their known abilities, then the top four ranked teams will reach the semifinals, with the higher ranked teams likely to win the semifinals and the final.

 

[bluevision]

If Indian team management is looking for someone to stabilize the innings at number 4 and guide the innings at a SR of around 80, then why not Pujara? Even Rahane installs much confidence than this Rayudu guy. Pujara, Rahane etc. won't do any worse than Rayudu. There is only one place for a tuk-tuk in the middle order, I'm afraid that position is booked till eternity by Dhoni.

However, India is still likely to qualify for the SF, even with this current middle order. And if the middle order goes untested, a slot in the final is not beyond our reach.

Hoping against hope that Rayudu+Dhoni combo proves us all wrong..

 

[latecut]

I wonder what happened to Raina. He would have been a dream middle order batsman in this side.

 

[rhony]

If Indian team management is looking for someone to stabilize the innings at number 4 and guide the innings at a SR of around 80, then why not Pujara? Even Rahane installs much confidence than this Rayudu guy. Pujara, Rahane etc. won't do any worse than Rayudu. There is only one place for a tuk-tuk in the middle order, I'm afraid that position is booked till eternity by Dhoni.

However, India is still likely to qualify for the SF, even with this current middle order. And if the middle order goes untested, a slot in the final is not beyond our reach.

Hoping against hope that Rayudu+Dhoni combo proves us all wrong..

Pujara suggestion is obviously a joke but Rahane was in contention even during the SA series. He just cant rotate the strike. If one is slotted in the order right after Kohli, they need to rotate well. He might still be in contention as he's playing in the A team now.

I think they will eventually go with the team that played in AUS 3rd ODI. Dhoni at 4, drop Rayudu and DK as a finisher after Jadhav

 

[Smbhayi]

Not seen middle order collapses in the one dayers? India can be 150/3 it could easily become 170/6 when there is a collapse. India would end up with 175. England could end up with 250. Even Pakistan other day after a collapse ended with 207.

what was the last time India all-out for sub par total...?

 

[dani2k]

It is too late to try new faces in the middle order now. While the Indian middle order pales in comparison to their top three, I am confident they will get the job done as a unit. However, we need a top form Pandya as a fail-safe mechanism in case our middle order plays slower than expected.

I also believe India would be better served with Dhoni at 4, Jadhav at 5, Karthik at 6 and Pandya at 7. The first two take time to get going (Dhoni for sure, while Jadhav can surprise you on his day) and the other two would be off the blocks within no time - especially Pandya. With this combo, we can atleast hope to set or chase a 280 to 300 target on most days. 325 anyways requires out of the skin batting for most teams and so would need a collective effort from the entire batting line up.

However, with the Indian bowling line up, I hope they need not chase 300+. The key to that would be to manage form and injuries of the squad. Fingers crossed that the IPL would not throw a spanner on the works.

 

[WengerOut]

Pujara suggestion is obviously a joke but Rahane was in contention even during the SA series. He just cant rotate the strike. If one is slotted in the order right after Kohli, they need to rotate well. He might still be in contention as he's playing in the A team now.

I think they will eventually go with the team that played in AUS 3rd ODI. Dhoni at 4, drop Rayudu and DK as a finisher after Jadhav

I am a little confused. Dhoni himself booted out Rahane citing his lack of strike rotation skill. Last year or so, Dhoni himself admitted he has lost the ability to rotate strike. So, what is the difference between them now? Rahane is miles better than Rayudu. And i am not a Rahane fan.

 

[bluevision]

[MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION]- It's so frustrating to see Rayudu in the line-up. But seriously, Pujara/Rahane would not do much worse than him. He can't rotate the strike either, add to that- the awkward body language and sloppy fielding and that nervous smile..* But if the management is persistent with him, there might be something special about the guy which is beyond comprehension for us mortals.

 

[rhony]

I am a little confused. Dhoni himself booted out Rahane citing his lack of strike rotation skill. Last year or so, Dhoni himself admitted he has lost the ability to rotate strike. So, what is the difference between them now? Rahane is miles better than Rayudu. And i am not a Rahane fan.

Rahane was pretty sure he would be in the WC squad. The more I think of it, I wouldnt be surprised if they bring him into the fold and just kick Rahul out of the WC squad. Rahane can be the back up opener and also a No.4 bat. As far as SR goes, he can't be worse than Rayudu. Rahane is an excellent fielder and Rayudu's the worst. IPL could play a part in the selections unless the squad is chosen before IPL.

As far as Dhoni goes, he's untouchable now after the AUS MOS. Also, he is seen as a package and his role is to see India through in a chase or Help set a decent score. TBF, he did both in the last 5 ODIs.

 

[saeed5646]

Stats for the last two years (avg/SR):

Rayadu 51.6/88
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Karthik 53.1/76
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Dhoni 52.2/82
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

3 middle order batsmen each averaging 50+ is weak? Also, Rahul may recover his form and be in the team.

In comparison, the 3 Pakistani batsmen after the first 3 (Imam, Zaman and Azam):

Hafeez 38.3/84
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Malik 39/85
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Sarfaraz 32.9/86
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s=2;template=results;type=batting;view=series

All 3 Indian middle order batsmen have about the same stats as Pakistan's best batsman Azam 51.7/80

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=batting;view=series

How is that even relevelant for the topic ?.one is 3rd in the ranking other is 5th so ofcourse there will be some difference.dhoni is turning out to be another misbah whose stats can be misleading .Rayudu and kartik have just played few matches since there return .They might be better than malik ,hafeez and sarfraz but good luck winning the worldcup with that middle order

 

[Napa]

How is that even relevelant for the topic ?.one is 3rd in the ranking other is 5th so ofcourse there will be some difference.dhoni is turning out to be another misbah whose stats can be misleading .Rayudu and kartik have just played few matches since there return .They might be better than malik ,hafeez and sarfraz but good luck winning the worldcup with that middle order

How is this relevant? The OP claimed that India's middle order was weak. My stats said they are not, and I provided a comparison with another favorite to win the WC (that is Pakistan).

Also, India is ranked 2nd, not 3rd

 

[saeed5646]

How is this relevant? The OP claimed that India's middle order was weak. My stats said they are not, and I provided a comparison with another favorite to win the WC (that is Pakistan).

Also, India is ranked 2nd, not 3rd

why not compare with england or nz both are rank higher than pak and far more consistent odi side than pak

well thats prove my point further number 2 vs number 5.Surely we have some moment in eng and can be 4th favorites but overall stats prove we are still not as eng,india or nz

 

[CricketAnalyst]

If the top 7 wickets don't get you to a winning score, the remaining 3 are unlikely to do anything!

This is totally nonsensical. The remaining 3 will do quite a bit if they are Shadab Khan, Faheem Ashraf, Sarfraz Ahmed, compared to Bhuvaneshwar Kumar, Chahal and Kuldeep Yadav. The expected difference would be 50 runs or so and that's well within the deciding margin for most matches.

The more batsmen you have the more chance that some of them will come good.

 

[jagatk]

This is totally nonsensical. The remaining 3 will do quite a bit if they are Shadab Khan, Faheem Ashraf, Sarfraz Ahmed, compared to Bhuvaneshwar Kumar, Chahal and Kuldeep Yadav. The expected difference would be 50 runs or so and that's well within the deciding margin for most matches.

The more batsmen you have the more chance that some of them will come good.

Our 3 will pick wickets and control runs while bowling, will the 3 pak players one of whom is a keeper do that. Also what on earth is a wk doing batting at 8.

 

[MP2011]

Our 3 will pick wickets and control runs while bowling, will the 3 pak players one of whom is a keeper do that. Also what on earth is a wk doing batting at 8.

This.

If we can restrict opposition team to an average total courtesy Bumrah & KulCha, we may not have to chase that many and hence won't need to pack our side with batsmen a la England. And vice versa.

 

[austerlitz]

Agreed sadly.Last hope is shubman gill,next 2 matches while dead rubbers are critical for indian cricket.
If we take pant and gill to the world cup we have hope.

 

[Snak3eye5]

Taking 3 top order Indian wkts for 34 runs is a bit ambitious. In the Asia Cup Pakistani bowlers conceded 404 runs for 2 top order Indian wickets...

If it happened during ct2017 it can definitely happen again and India’s middle order doesn’t inspire any confidence but teams will definitely try to exploit that weakness. Pakistan has the bowlers that can negate the top 3.

 

[cricketjoshila]

why not compare with england or nz both are rank higher than pak and far more consistent odi side than pak

well thats prove my point further number 2 vs number 5.Surely we have some moment in eng and can be 4th favorites but overall stats prove we are still not as eng,india or nz

We just beat NZ away. Without Bumrah.

 

[yuvi]

Our middle order may be weak compared to our past. But still it's as good as any except England currently.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

While this is a ridiculous thread considering there's not any team in world cricket, barring maybe England, that would be confident of chasing 300 after losing their top 3 for nothing, it needs to be said that our middle order doesn't have the firepower. Statistics will show that India has among the worst run rates from overs 41-50 in the last 2 years or so. These guys have been trying to stay unbeaten and inflate their averages instead of trying to get their team to a winning score. While Rayudu and Karthik may be averaging over 50 in the last year, it's hard to remember any ODI which they have won for India from an unlikely position. That's the problem. They're not match-winning players.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Pakistan has the bowlers that can negate the top 3.

But does it have the batsmen to play out Bumrah, Shami/Bhuvi, Kuldeep and Chahal?

 

[dani2k]

Recently Michael Clarke, the last WC winning captain made an important point about team composition. "It is not just about talent alone, it is about whether your talent can fulfill a certain role in your team. Team's don't necessarily run on talent, they are all about different individuals performing different roles".

This is the reason why I see Pant and Gill not making the squad and if they do (one of them might) it would be only as a back up. The reason is because we don't have enough sample size to know which role they could fit in and how they could perform in different scenarios while playing that role for the team.

We are not Pakistan who give debuts to rookies during important tournaments. That is just not how Indian cricket works and it is not going to change this time too. Barring injuries I don't see both Gill and Pant in the team. One of them could still have an outside chance if they have outstanding numbers in the rest of the games, but only as a back up. We will have to live with it.

And those two are Indian cricket's future and will have their time under the Sun. We just have to be patient.

 

[Stalin]

This is cringeworthy wrist slitting from Indian fans . I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with our middle order. Get DK for Rayudu and play MSD at 4. Yes , I agree that we may not have enough firepower to chase down 320+ totals , but my question is are we really going to concede a 320+ total . May be if Bumrah, Kuldeep, chahal and Shami have a terrible day , but that is pretty unlikely at the moment.

 

[WengerOut]

This is cringeworthy wrist slitting from Indian fans . I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with our middle order. Get DK for Rayudu and play MSD at 4. Yes , I agree that we may not have enough firepower to chase down 320+ totals , but my question is are we really going to concede a 320+ total . May be if Bumrah, Kuldeep, chahal and Shami have a terrible day , but that is pretty unlikely at the moment.

Every team have had a taste of KulCha now. And you can see that they had been worked out during the fag end of every series. England will be mostly flat and therefore there is nothing dangerous about them. I mean spinners are easier to line up when there are no mysteries. Teams can play out Bumrah and attack others. Contrary to popular opinion here, my biggest worry is India depending solely on spinners. Even WI batsmen smoked them on flat surfaces.

 

[Napa]

This is totally nonsensical. The remaining 3 will do quite a bit if they are Shadab Khan, Faheem Ashraf, Sarfraz Ahmed, compared to Bhuvaneshwar Kumar, Chahal and Kuldeep Yadav. The expected difference would be 50 runs or so and that's well within the deciding margin for most matches.

The more batsmen you have the more chance that some of them will come good.

Nonsense? Stay in the real world my friend. You are comparing the position of Sarfaraz to Kuldeep just because Sarfaraz for some unknown reason chooses to come down the order? The proper comparison is Sarfaraz's average with the average of India's wicketkeeper who will either be Dhoni or Pant.

As for Faheem Ashram, his average is ODI's is 11.5 whereas Bhuvi's average is 15.5. Your "expected difference" of 50 runs in Pakistan's favor is delusional.

 

[Napa]

Every team have had a taste of KulCha now. And you can see that they had been worked out during the fag end of every series. England will be mostly flat and therefore there is nothing dangerous about them. I mean spinners are easier to line up when there are no mysteries. Teams can play out Bumrah and attack others. Contrary to popular opinion here, my biggest worry is India depending solely on spinners. Even WI batsmen smoked them on flat surfaces.

This is a genuine concern. Relying on spinners who have already been seen can be very dangerous, especially on pitches not suited to them. For some unknown reason India dropped Umesh Yadav who had figures of 7.4 - 1 - 30 - 3 in the group match against Pakistan and replaced him with Ashwin in the CT final. Ashwin went for 10 - 0 - 70 - 0

India should seriously consider getting Umesh back for the WC given that it is being played in England.

 

[ARK Rafay]

India's top order is overwhelming and when compared to middle order you think India's middle order are all oldies and a bit weak. India's middle order so far have bailed India out and will 8 out of 10 times. There real problem is there 5th/6th bowler.

 

[jnaveen1980]

It is never too late. Inzamam Ajay Jadeja both got the taste internationals directly in the World Cup. They’ didn’t do too badly in 1992.

 

[ARK Rafay]

India's top order is overwhelming and when compared to middle order you think India's middle order are all oldies and a bit weak. India's middle order so far have bailed India out and will 8 out of 10 times. There real problem is there 5th/6th bowler.

One thing I'd like to add.

India will most probably go with Jadhav and Pandya as their 5th and 6th bowlers but I'm not sold on Pandya bowling 10 overs and Jadhav isn't a full solution. So the rest of their 4 bowlers have to be absolute spot on. If one had a bad day then teams can cash on Jadhav and Pandya.

 

[Dingolfy]

Every team have had a taste of KulCha now. And you can see that they had been worked out during the fag end of every series. England will be mostly flat and therefore there is nothing dangerous about them. I mean spinners are easier to line up when there are no mysteries. Teams can play out Bumrah and attack others. Contrary to popular opinion here, my biggest worry is India depending solely on spinners. Even WI batsmen smoked them on flat surfaces.

Windies smoked them in ONE match and was by the end of series , they were ALL out by 104 in 30 overs on a pitch where we chased with a run rate of over 7. And if you have seen the match, they were slogging them instead of actually picking them from their hand (just like how England did with Root and Morgan). Such tactics will come good in one match but will not work once the bowler figures out the batsmen. Kiwis were sweeping everything against Kulcha in the Indian series and once they found out that, they struggled against them in the current series.
If you want to be successful against Kulcha or any good wrist spinner, you have to pick them from their hand and play according to the spin. Currently only non-sub continental team who can do that is England. And we have pacers to run through subcontinental sides who play spin well.

 

[BDfanforever]

Contrary to popular opinion here, my biggest worry is India depending solely on spinners. Even WI batsmen smoked them on flat surfaces.

Good point. Indian fans do not realize that 6 batsman 5 bowler combo can backfire in WC. Due to a bowling heavy team they struggled to chase 283 against WI after 172/3 in one the game IIRC.

There is no way both Kuldeep and Chahal will play together. One of them, most likely Kuldeep will have to make a way for another allrounder possibly Jadeja. However, Indian fans make fun of my posts when I say these.

 

[Dingolfy]

I wonder what happened to Raina. He would have been a dream middle order batsman in this side.

His short-ball problems have worsened. I wanted him badly in the team but he has lost it by now unfortunately. And Jadhav is doing his job pretty good now but his poor fielding is a problem.

 

[Dingolfy]

Good point. Indian fans do not realize that 6 batsman 5 bowler combo can backfire in WC. Due to a bowling heavy team they struggled to chase 283 against WI after 172/3 in one the game IIRC.

There is no way both Kuldeep and Chahal will play together. One of them, most likely Kuldeep will have to make a way for another allrounder possibly Jadeja. However, Indian fans make fun of my posts when I say these.

They will play against all non-subcon teams barring England probably.

 

[WengerOut]

Windies smoked them in ONE match and was by the end of series , they were ALL out by 104 in 30 overs on a pitch where we chased with a run rate of over 7. And if you have seen the match, they were slogging them instead of actually picking them from their hand (just like how England did with Root and Morgan). Such tactics will come good in one match but will not work once the bowler figures out the batsmen. Kiwis were sweeping everything against Kulcha in the Indian series and once they found out that, they struggled against them in the current series.
If you want to be successful against Kulcha or any good wrist spinner, you have to pick them from their hand and play according to the spin. Currently only non-sub continental team who can do that is England. And we have pacers to run through subcontinental sides who play spin well.

Aussies played Kuldeep well. NZ have always played them ok (in India as well) . He took mostly lower order this series. Chahal is a disaster waiting to happen. It is not that they are bamboozling people here.

 

[WengerOut]

Good point. Indian fans do not realize that 6 batsman 5 bowler combo can backfire in WC. Due to a bowling heavy team they struggled to chase 283 against WI after 172/3 in one the game IIRC.

There is no way both Kuldeep and Chahal will play together. One of them, most likely Kuldeep will have to make a way for another allrounder possibly Jadeja. However, Indian fans make fun of my posts when I say these.

I agree only one of them should play but don't know who. Kuldeep can bat a bit and fielding is not disastrous. Chahal is bad at both. But he has lot more control over flight in his bowling.

 

[Mp812]

The best thing BCCI can do is rest Kohli and Rohit for Australia 5 odis to be held before World cup.
And then experiment a bit. Make Dhoni captain and instruct him not to change battingl ineup irrespective of the result of series even if loosing it.

Play Gill as opener with Dhawan and Pant at Kohlis batting spot as one down or vice versa.
Let Rayudu and Kartik bat at positions 4 and 5.
And then see what results the experiment yields.

Do Gill and Pant bat well & score big and not let Rayudu and Kartik come in at 50/3 scenario ? If yest the both will have gained batting experience at responsible positions.
OR
Do they fail and they let Rayudu/Kartik in at 50/3 ? In that case we get to see what Rayudu/Kartik can do from 50/3 situation and if they can deliver when top order has collapsed.

Out of these 4 players whoever bat well and perform well, pick two of them and put one of them at no 4 position in World cup with other as reserve player.
Rohit and Kohli get a rest that way.... And if Gill and Pant actually have potential or are just over hyped expectations and are not so different from Rayudu/Kartik, will also be clearr ending a debate between fans and explayers on who out of the 4 are better?

 

[Dingolfy]

Aussies played Kuldeep well. NZ have always played them ok (in India as well) . He took mostly lower order this series. Chahal is a disaster waiting to happen. It is not that they are bamboozling people here.

Only in the current series and mostly because of darter Jadeja not able to keep pressure at the other end. Once chahal was back in the the third ODI, they were out by 230 paltry runs.
And NZ is struggling to play both of them in this series. They have employed sweeping against them in India series which failed once Kulcha figured that out. Even Williamson was failed in flight in the third match .
Watch how England and Pakistan played Kulcha and compare that against Kiwis and Aussies. Then you will see the difference.

 

[WengerOut]

Only in the current series and mostly because of darter Jadeja not able to keep pressure at the other end. Once chahal was back in the the third ODI, they were out by 230 paltry runs.
And NZ is struggling to play both of them in this series. They have employed sweeping against them in India series which failed once Kulcha figured that out. Even Williamson was failed in flight in the third match .
Watch how England and Pakistan played Kulcha and compare that against Kiwis and Aussies. Then you will see the difference.

Aussies played them very well in India ODIs 2017 where except for Kuldeep hatrick, they were mediocre and expensive throughout the series.

NZ also played them well in India. In current series, only 3 main batsmen faced them extensively because of early wickets. Ross Taylor was milking him down the ground, Kane Williamson was also comfortable before getting out. Tom Latham is a fantastic player of spin. He was sweeping just because it was the safest and easiest option for him. Check out his innings at Wankhede. Only Henry Nicholls struggled. But he is a newbie.


You don't want to go far, just look at their performance at the end of every series. Chahal took those wickets in Australia because of 2 reasons : MCG was spinning and it was his first match against those relatively new players.

 

[austerlitz]

The best thing BCCI can do is rest Kohli and Rohit for Australia 5 odis to be held before World cup.
And then experiment a bit. Make Dhoni captain and instruct him not to change battingl ineup irrespective of the result of series even if loosing it.

Play Gill as opener with Dhawan and Pant at Kohlis batting spot as one down or vice versa.
Let Rayudu and Kartik bat at positions 4 and 5.
And then see what results the experiment yields.

Do Gill and Pant bat well & score big and not let Rayudu and Kartik come in at 50/3 scenario ? If yest the both will have gained batting experience at responsible positions.
OR
Do they fail and they let Rayudu/Kartik in at 50/3 ? In that case we get to see what Rayudu/Kartik can do from 50/3 situation and if they can deliver when top order has collapsed.

Out of these 4 players whoever bat well and perform well, pick two of them and put one of them at no 4 position in World cup with other as reserve player.
Rohit and Kohli get a rest that way.... And if Gill and Pant actually have potential or are just over hyped expectations and are not so different from Rayudu/Kartik, will also be clearr ending a debate between fans and explayers on who out of the 4 are better?

I would say rest just kohli.Rohit will have to be captain,dhawan needs match practice.
Gill at 3.Rayudu/Pant 4.Dhoni 5.Alternate between kedar/pant/kartik at 6.Gill must be given 5 matches at least (2 NZ and 3 vs aus)