India's World Cup 2019 fate is sealed due to their weak middle-order

[CricFan2012]

The top 3 don't get intimidated by big matches. Dhawan and Kohli especially thrive under pressure.

And India will rarely have to chase 300+, due to Bumrah, Kuldeep, Chahal, Shami, etc.

Yeah I agree.

Bumrah is extremely difficult to score runs off of, and every single team is weak to leg spinners, whereas Kuldeep is the second best LOI leg spinner after Rashid.

So that is two bowlers team can't score much off of which automatically reduces the deficit below 300, Chahal and Shami are really good also, but can leak few more runs.

India isn't a stereotypically weak bowling side anymore, they are going to roll teams over.

 

[jagatk]

Yeah I agree.

Bumrah is extremely difficult to score runs off of, and every single team is weak to leg spinners, whereas Kuldeep is the second best LOI leg spinner after Rashid.

So that is two bowlers team can't score much off of which automatically reduces the deficit below 300, Chahal and Shami are really good also, but can leak few more runs.

India isn't a stereotypically weak bowling side anymore, they are going to roll teams over.

The guy who averages 20 @ economy of 4.7 is second best to a guy who averages 30 @ economy of 5.5, how.

 

[SportsWarrior]

The guy who averages 20 @ economy of 4.7 is second best to a guy who averages 30 @ economy of 5.5, how.

i think he is referring to Afghan leg spinner.. although most of his wickets are against associates

 

[Dingolfy]

Aussies played them very well in India ODIs 2017 where except for Kuldeep hatrick, they were mediocre and expensive throughout the series.

NZ also played them well in India. In current series, only 3 main batsmen faced them extensively because of early wickets. Ross Taylor was milking him down the ground, Kane Williamson was also comfortable before getting out. Tom Latham is a fantastic player of spin. He was sweeping just because it was the safest and easiest option for him. Check out his innings at Wankhede. Only Henry Nicholls struggled. But he is a newbie.


You don't want to go far, just look at their performance at the end of every series. Chahal took those wickets in Australia because of 2 reasons : MCG was spinning and it was his first match against those relatively new players.

Find me one good sub-continental great batsman who sweeped predominantly against spinners. You wouldn't find none because that is not how good players of spin treat spinners. I have seen all the three matches and kiwis couldn't pick the length and spin of kulcha and that is why they struggled to complete even 50 overs.

 

[WengerOut]

Find me one good sub-continental great batsman who sweeped predominantly against spinners. You wouldn't find none because that is not how good players of spin treat spinners. I have seen all the three matches and kiwis couldn't pick the length and spin of kulcha and that is why they struggled to complete even 50 overs.

Can't compare different techniques. Hayden swept his way to record books. Damien Martyn as well. Why bother about techniques? Check the facts i mentioned and you will find it true.

 

[Dingolfy]

Can't compare different techniques. Hayden swept his way to record books. Damien Martyn as well. Why bother about techniques? Check the facts i mentioned and you will find it true.

Because that is a poor technique against spinners.As simple as that. Hayden's sweeping was found out in the latter series against India and they kept a specialist fielder for his favorite areas. Check how much he made in 2004 and 2008 India tours compared to his 2001 where he kept sweeping.

Look how easily Pakistanis played Kulcha in Asia cup even though they were facing them for the first time. Compared that to how Kiwis played in this series where they were facing them for fourth time. They couldn't even score over 250 and neither complete batting 50 overs. That is not how good players of spin play.

 

[WengerOut]

Because that is a poor technique against spinners.As simple as that. Hayden's sweeping was found out in the latter series against India and they kept a specialist fielder for his favorite areas. Check how much he made in 2004 and 2008 India tours compared to his 2001 where he kept sweeping.

Look how easily Pakistanis played Kulcha in Asia cup even though they were facing them for the first time. Compared that to how Kiwis played in this series where they were facing them for fourth time. They couldn't even score over 250 and neither complete batting 50 overs. That is not how good players of spin play.

They played the spinners fine last match. And you did not answer why they consistently become easier to play later on the series. There was a stat the other day about this same thing.

 

[Dingolfy]

They played the spinners fine last match. And you did not answer why they consistently become easier to play later on the series. There was a stat the other day about this same thing.

Bhiajan, they were scoring 230 runs on tiny post-card sized pitches where they scored 300 plus few weeks back against Lankans. And where Oldie Dhoni and Rayudus were blasting away to 320s. That is not playing fine. And if they had found out Kulcha by playing them so well in India, why did they falter at their own home again? Kulcha would always have chance against guys who don't have the ability to pick them from their hand and go for predetermined shots. Doesn't matter how long they play against them.

 

[WengerOut]

Bhiajan, they were scoring 230 runs on tiny post-card sized pitches where they scored 300 plus few weeks back against Lankans. And where Oldie Dhoni and Rayudus were blasting away to 320s. That is not playing fine. And if they had found out Kulcha by playing them so well in India, why did they falter at their own home again? Kulcha would always have chance against guys who don't have the ability to pick them from their hand and go for predetermined shots. Doesn't matter how long they play against them.

Why did Kuldeep go wicket less yesterday even after top order were dismissed when he came?

You still did not answer the series ending performance

 

[latecut]

They played the spinners fine last match. And you did not answer why they consistently become easier to play later on the series. There was a stat the other day about this same thing.

So Indians not only have a weak middle order, they have a weak spin attack as well. Now I am convinced that Indian fate is truly sealed.

 

[WengerOut]

So Indians not only have a weak middle order, they have a weak spin attack as well. Now I am convinced that Indian fate is truly sealed.

A bit of comprehension problem here. Spin is not weak, but it is not great as being proclaimed here. Only one of them should play.

 

[latecut]

My comprehension problem is even more acute. To my mind, a stronger top order is more important than stronger middle order. Secondly, to my mind, two wrist spinners working in tandem are more effective than just one wrist spinner in a match.

Kuldeep Yadav and Chahal bowling together will pose serious problems to most batting lineups, even if they supposedly have stronger middle order in their lines up.

On the other hand, most bowling sides will have fast medium bowlers assisted by conventional spinners that should not pose any undue pressure on Indian middle order, for the ten odd overs that they are likely to bat out of 50 overs in a match.

 

[rhony]

A bit of comprehension problem here. Spin is not weak, but it is not great as being proclaimed here. Only one of them should play.

These are not trick bowlers like Mendis was before he was found out. NZ batsmen played them n India before and still struggled here. They are thinking bowlers and attack. They might be ineffective once in a while but that's expected. Kohli doesn't score a 50 in every game. Batsmen will read them better and will try to counter them. As long as the bowlers improve and keep attacking, they will evolve. In a tournament like a world cup, there is no continuous practise like in a jamodi where they play 3 to 5 games. Each team plays the other once before the knock out round. Their basics are good, rely on flight and length, vary the pace and attack. As long as they keep those, they will be effective.

 

[latecut]

These are not trick bowlers like Mendis was before he was found out. NZ batsmen played them n India before and still struggled here. They are thinking bowlers and attack. They might be ineffective once in a while but that's expected. Kohli doesn't score a 50 in every game. Batsmen will read them better and will try to counter them. As long as the bowlers improve and keep attacking, they will evolve. In a tournament like a world cup, there is no continuous practise like in a jamodi where they play 3 to 5 games. Each team plays the other once before the knock out round. Their basics are good, rely on flight and length, vary the pace and attack. As long as they keep those, they will be effective.

Precisely. Some fans are under the impression that Indian leg spinners are mystery spinners who will get found out with more exposure. That is not so. Just as Bumrah will take wickets no matter how many times a batsman has played against him, Indian wrist spinners will likewise take wickets no matter how many times a batsman has played them before.

 

[WengerOut]

These are not trick bowlers like Mendis was before he was found out. NZ batsmen played them n India before and still struggled here. They are thinking bowlers and attack. They might be ineffective once in a while but that's expected. Kohli doesn't score a 50 in every game. Batsmen will read them better and will try to counter them. As long as the bowlers improve and keep attacking, they will evolve. In a tournament like a world cup, there is no continuous practise like in a jamodi where they play 3 to 5 games. Each team plays the other once before the knock out round. Their basics are good, rely on flight and length, vary the pace and attack. As long as they keep those, they will be effective.

Working out a bowler does not mean they were mystery bowlers. You can work out the angles or line they bowl certain deliveries, their variation of pace etc. Kuldeep mostly depends on batsmen not picking him, even more than Chahal. Chahal has a slider as well. Kuldeep has poor control of his flight which when encountering batsmen who can pick him ( most good batsmen), will be a cannon fodder. I am not a fan of Chahal either, but between them i think i will choose him.

 

[Sidilicious]

I will be really disappointed if Gill is not given a chance in tomorrows match. So looking forward to his debut...

 

[cr7great]

gill won't be given chances because of csk quota

 

[rhony]

Working out a bowler does not mean they were mystery bowlers. You can work out the angles or line they bowl certain deliveries, their variation of pace etc. Kuldeep mostly depends on batsmen not picking him, even more than Chahal. Chahal has a slider as well. Kuldeep has poor control of his flight which when encountering batsmen who can pick him ( most good batsmen), will be a cannon fodder. I am not a fan of Chahal either, but between them i think i will choose him.

The ability to pick the variations and judge the length is a forte of top order batsmen. Kuldeep's variations are difficult to pick for lower order no matter what. Chahal is typically the spinner that Kohli or Rohit go to after PP. He has a knack of beating the top batsman in the air. Both are valuable and both will play as long as Pandya plays. They seem to have different strengths and roles.

 

[rhony]

I will be really disappointed if Gill is not given a chance in tomorrows match. So looking forward to his debut...

On all accounts, Gill is playing at No.3 spot

 

[gani999]

BCCI shouldn't bother to send their team to the WC, because they can't chase 300 after being 25/3.

So which other team do you think can chase 300 after being 25/3?

The cluelessness among some on this forum can be quite entertaining at times

 

[latecut]

So which other team do you think can chase 300 after being 25/3?

The cluelessness among some on this forum can be quite entertaining at times

The team with the strongest middle order can, as we are repeatedly being told in this thread. We are being told that Bangladesh has the strongest middle order. We are told that they once chased 270 after being 33/4. What these fans very conveniently ignore is that it was the only time they did that against a top side. Fans very conveniently forget that Bangladesh cannot chase 300 plus totals against top sides even if they get a good start, forget chasing such total after being 25/3.

 

[dragon751]

Difference is India has literally nothing after the top 7. Pakistan bat deep.

having a few sloggers in the lower order does not count at batting deep

 

[dragon751]

This is a genuine concern. Relying on spinners who have already been seen can be very dangerous, especially on pitches not suited to them. For some unknown reason India dropped Umesh Yadav who had figures of 7.4 - 1 - 30 - 3 in the group match against Pakistan and replaced him with Ashwin in the CT final. Ashwin went for 10 - 0 - 70 - 0

India should seriously consider getting Umesh back for the WC given that it is being played in England.

Ash has been pretty average in odis for the past 2-3 years before the CT final, he was played purely on reputation and that got destroyed in that game and rightfully he was kicked out of the team .... added to that his fielding was always a liability... india have moved on from ash , as for umesh he still does not have the control a top seamer needs in odis and i dont see us playing 3 seamers + pandya in any game in eng and currently umesh is lower than bumrah, shami and bhuvi in the pecking order

 

[AuxiliA]

So which other team do you think can chase 300 after being 25/3?

The cluelessness among some on this forum can be quite entertaining at times

Pakistan can according to some. They have Hasan Richards batting at no 10.

 

[jagatk]

Working out a bowler does not mean they were mystery bowlers. You can work out the angles or line they bowl certain deliveries, their variation of pace etc. Kuldeep mostly depends on batsmen not picking him, even more than Chahal. Chahal has a slider as well. Kuldeep has poor control of his flight which when encountering batsmen who can pick him ( most good batsmen), will be a cannon fodder. I am not a fan of Chahal either, but between them i think i will choose him.

For a guy with no variations and poor control he seems to be doing well. So he clearly knows something you don't or he won't be picking the wickets he is while controling run flow.

 

[WengerOut]

For a guy with no variations and poor control he seems to be doing well. So he clearly knows something you don't or he won't be picking the wickets he is while controling run flow.

For the umpteenth time, please check out his record as a series progresses.

 

[latecut]

For the umpteenth time, please check out his record as a series progresses.

Even if it is assumed that they lose their wicket taking ability as the series progresses, that cannot happen in world cup because there are no series with any team in a world cup. Most teams will face Kuldeep and Chahal only once during the world cup.

 

[WengerOut]

Even if it is assumed that they lose their wicket taking ability as the series progresses, that cannot happen in world cup because there are no series with any team in a world cup. Most teams will face Kuldeep and Chahal only once during the world cup.

The point was they have lost their novelty factor. On a flat patta and small grounds it is risky to include both.

 

[CricFan2012]

i think he is referring to Afghan leg spinner.. although most of his wickets are against associates

Yeah, he has bowled really well against top players in leagues as well, which no doubt will translate to successful performances in the world cup, because his stats and bowling is just unreal even if its against associates.

 

[rhony]

The point was they have lost their novelty factor. On a flat patta and small grounds it is risky to include both.

There is no novelty factor. Spin, variations and flight are no different than a pacer swinging or bowling a slower ball. Seeing is one thing, playing is another. Great spinners have taken hundreds of wickets throughout history. It's not like people didn't know how to read them.

These spinners have taken wickets where traditionally there wasn't any assistance for tweakers -SENA

They will be.lethal on the dry WC pitches

 

[jagatk]

The point was they have lost their novelty factor. On a flat patta and small grounds it is risky to include both.

So you think NZ has big grounds or did SA have grounds that will be much bigger than what england has.

 

[Dingolfy]

The point was they have lost their novelty factor. On a flat patta and small grounds it is risky to include both.

They have already played 3 ODIs on flat pattas with post-card size boundaries and against beastly hitters who smoked Lankans few weeks ago. And Kiwis still cant last 50 overs. What more do you want?