PetroDollars
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Chuka is gone, he has even sold off his office in streatham.
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Contact the PP Team
Labour leadership: Result will be announced on 4 April [Post #1698]
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Gabbar Singh
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This is going to be fun. It looks as if people like Owen Jones and Polly Toynbee might just get the Labour Party of their dreams.
Gabbar Singh
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Blair made a speech last week saying those in the Labour party who have their heart with Corbyn should "get a transplant" - probably so Blair can have one. In all seriousness, this leadership contest has turned into a shambles. Division over the Welfare Bill, Corbyn now surging ahead against everyone's expectations and the failure of the other three candidates to inspire. Not one of the candidates really frighten the life out of the Tories.
People mock Corbyn for being a throwback to Michael Foot, but he does speak honestly and passionately about the issues people care about like lack of affordable housing and student debt. However I don't think Syriza-lite will work here in Britain. I don't want 'principled opposition' like we had in the 1980s when Thatcher clobbered the industrial cities and the people who really needed a Labour government - saw their party in a state of meltdown.
What use is a political party if it doesn't seek power ? You can't wait for the electorate to see your point of view, you have to first win an election and then try to shift the centre ground to where you want it.
People mock Corbyn for being a throwback to Michael Foot, but he does speak honestly and passionately about the issues people care about like lack of affordable housing and student debt. However I don't think Syriza-lite will work here in Britain. I don't want 'principled opposition' like we had in the 1980s when Thatcher clobbered the industrial cities and the people who really needed a Labour government - saw their party in a state of meltdown.
What use is a political party if it doesn't seek power ? You can't wait for the electorate to see your point of view, you have to first win an election and then try to shift the centre ground to where you want it.
James
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What a joke the Labour Party has become - slowly, violently and comprehensively so over the last 15 years.
The Conservatives are going to run this country for a very long time.
The Conservatives are going to run this country for a very long time.
Gabbar Singh
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Indeed many within the Labour Party seem to want the role of principled opposition vs pragmatic government.
Re Corbyn I think some of his ideas are mad but at least he is honest and answers questions directly. Not like the other 3. The person the Tories would fear the most in Liz Kendall but then she is just a proponent of 'Tory lite' policies.
It's a shame Chuka or Dan Jarvis were not running. The other option Labour had is to have a sort of caretaker leader like the Tories did with Michael Howard and then pick a proper leader post 2020 - perhaps someone like Alan Johnson? I honestly think they have no chance in 2020. The SNP aren't going away and if the Tories change the boundaries then winning in England is going to be even more difficult.
Labour need so many things to happen to win the next election. They need a resurgence in Scotland, they need to win back UKIP voters in the north of England, they need the Lib Dems to take seats back from the Tories in the South of England they need to win back the middle class who do not trust them with the economy.
Like Hague in 1997 what a horrible job this is going to be.
Re Corbyn I think some of his ideas are mad but at least he is honest and answers questions directly. Not like the other 3. The person the Tories would fear the most in Liz Kendall but then she is just a proponent of 'Tory lite' policies.
It's a shame Chuka or Dan Jarvis were not running. The other option Labour had is to have a sort of caretaker leader like the Tories did with Michael Howard and then pick a proper leader post 2020 - perhaps someone like Alan Johnson? I honestly think they have no chance in 2020. The SNP aren't going away and if the Tories change the boundaries then winning in England is going to be even more difficult.
Labour need so many things to happen to win the next election. They need a resurgence in Scotland, they need to win back UKIP voters in the north of England, they need the Lib Dems to take seats back from the Tories in the South of England they need to win back the middle class who do not trust them with the economy.
Like Hague in 1997 what a horrible job this is going to be.
Robert
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Labour have won just three general elections out of the last nine - all under Blair.
The only way they can get more seats in England is to move to the centre. In Scotland they have a different problem - they are not left-wing enough!
Get ready for at least ten more years of Tory rule, especially if Corbyn wins.
have to love the armchair experts who think they know it all by reading and parroting what the mainstream media want them to think
seems to be the same people who claimed the ConLib coalition wouldn't last a year
there is an old maxim 'be careful what you wish for it might come true"
The right wing media initially jumped on the Corbyn bandwagon thinking they were being clever but there will be unintended consequences so some of the more perceptive are desperately rowing back now
one thing they will hate is a principled opposition getting consistent airplay
and the other unintended consequence could be fracturing of the right wing, it is easier to keep all the right wing loons united when they can be brought to order by an external threat BUT with a Corbyn Labour no longer a viable election threat the Tory Party could itself split between the libertarians , outright racists and one nation centrists especially when divisions over Europe emerge
seems to be the same people who claimed the ConLib coalition wouldn't last a year
there is an old maxim 'be careful what you wish for it might come true"
The right wing media initially jumped on the Corbyn bandwagon thinking they were being clever but there will be unintended consequences so some of the more perceptive are desperately rowing back now
one thing they will hate is a principled opposition getting consistent airplay
and the other unintended consequence could be fracturing of the right wing, it is easier to keep all the right wing loons united when they can be brought to order by an external threat BUT with a Corbyn Labour no longer a viable election threat the Tory Party could itself split between the libertarians , outright racists and one nation centrists especially when divisions over Europe emerge
Gabbar Singh
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Well it's good to have free thinkers like [MENTION=107620]s28[/MENTION] keeping us on the straight and narrow.
The Tory parting splitting because of a Corbyn led Labour? In your dreams - in fact history suggests the opposite could happen. The last party to split because their then leader took them far to the left was Labour. And if Cameron could keep his party together when in a coalition with the Lib Dems he will survive and hold them together when it comes to the EU referendum. They may not be as politically astute as the Blair/Campbell (war criminals yes but nonetheless political giants) team but Cameron and Gideon are competent enough to keep the party together over Europe.
The Tory parting splitting because of a Corbyn led Labour? In your dreams - in fact history suggests the opposite could happen. The last party to split because their then leader took them far to the left was Labour. And if Cameron could keep his party together when in a coalition with the Lib Dems he will survive and hold them together when it comes to the EU referendum. They may not be as politically astute as the Blair/Campbell (war criminals yes but nonetheless political giants) team but Cameron and Gideon are competent enough to keep the party together over Europe.
chacha kashmiri
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When Cameron puts his feet up
Boris Johnson , the Home Secretary or Osborne will run for leadership which will be interesting
As for Corbyn the cynist in me still believe he's a prop for the unveiling of burnham in September
MaliksMohsin
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Who would vote Labour? Vote UKIP!
Gabbar Singh
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Corbyn has some real momentum behind his campaign
I have signed up as a Registered Supporter myself
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-star-tour-of-Britain-as-bandwagon-grows.html
Jeremy Corbyn on rock star tour of Britain as shadow chancellor attacks 'Corbynomics'
Surprise left wing front-runner speaks to rapturous crowds across country
I have signed up as a Registered Supporter myself
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-star-tour-of-Britain-as-bandwagon-grows.html
Jeremy Corbyn on rock star tour of Britain as shadow chancellor attacks 'Corbynomics'
Surprise left wing front-runner speaks to rapturous crowds across country
Eagle_Eye
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Sick of labour being essentially tory-lite....... I want to see a genuine alternative. Corbyn is surely that.
Eagle_Eye
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Liked one of the readers comments from the guardian:
Chris Leslie: "I'd rather hurt the poor by copying Tory policy than by being left-wing".
What a depressing prospect Labour has become. No vision, no strategy, no alternative to what we have; just the mindless drone that the electorate have gone to the right so the Labour party must follow them there. Apparently the Tories are allowed to influence the national conversation, but Labour aren't, they just have to run around following it.
Chris Leslie: "I'd rather hurt the poor by copying Tory policy than by being left-wing".
What a depressing prospect Labour has become. No vision, no strategy, no alternative to what we have; just the mindless drone that the electorate have gone to the right so the Labour party must follow them there. Apparently the Tories are allowed to influence the national conversation, but Labour aren't, they just have to run around following it.
Robert
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Well, that is the real world, I'm afraid. Look at the election results. The Tories have been the natural party of government since 1979. Labour can only get elected in England by moving to the centre.
Adil_94
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Why do u think left wing politics or socialism has died in England. When it was so popular in the first half of the 20th century. Now we are a neo-liberal society.
Bewal Express
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The Labour Party is working it self towards extinction with It's obsession with keeping the status quo in every public service or obsession with throwing money as the solution.The Tories have a made a good start on welfare reform but again the whole system needs a revolution, not just tinkering which is what the Tories have done so far, and even this is opposed by Labour. The Tories should scrap the tax credit system and increase the personal tax allowance to at least £15000. Labour will have chances in this term as the economic growth is mostly superficial, created by a credit boom which as we know always ends in tears.
Where is this 'centre' though Robert ? The 'centre' has moved so far to the right that anyone with economic policies to the left of the Financial Times and the Murdoch consensus is viewed as some kind of Stalinist.
Where I do disagree with the Corbynistas (don't get me wrong, I think Jeremy Corbyn is a thoroughly decent bloke) - is that they seem to want this 'alternative' more so than they appear to want to get elected. What use is the Labour Party if its merely a left-wing pressure group ? What use will Labour be to firefighters who are getting their pensions cut, nurses who've seen their pay stagnate, the elderly who are suffering from cuts in social care budgets and the young people being lumbered with exorbitant amounts of student debt and can't get on the housing ladder if its forever in 'principled opposition' ?
You get elected first, appeal to those voters in swing seats like Nuneaton, then you move the centre ground to the left.
I am no fan of Tony Blair for one second. But I quote him on this:
"Power without principle is barren. But principle without power is futile".
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Robert
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Adil_94;7948044[B said:
Because we live in such an atomised society now. The sense of community has gone. We don't all meet up in church on Sundays any more, and our social lives don't revolve round the workplace. The public houses are mostly shut.
Now all we want is a Sky subscription and the latest iPhone.
Robert
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Oh, come on. He won three elections for Labour including two landslides. He did plenty of good for the people of the UK in that time. Far more than Corbyn or any of the current alternatives ever will, because they will not win power.
What lies do you have to tell ? You can only win elections in modern day Britain by appealing to as many mainstream, centrist, apolitical voters as possible.
How did moving to the left work out in May ? People didn't think Ed Miliband wasn't left wing enough in Nuneaton and the other swing seats, they thought he was TOO left wing ! I don't agree with them but that's the electorate Labour has to deal with and appeal to. With Corbyn we'll get wiped out in the Midlands and Southern England. Even if we win back the Scottish voters with a more left-wing agenda, it still won't be enough to get a majority !
One of the things that'll stay with me for the rest of my life was when I saw the exit polls on that night in May, when Cameron was predicted for a majority. My heart sank and I felt deeply sorry for all those people who are now suffering under the Tories - young people, local councils, those being priced out of affordable homes, the disabled, the people who have severe illnesses yet are being deemed "fit for work" and the public sector workers who are having to pay for the banks' mistakes.
I don't want to go through that again. Never again. Labour is of no use to any of the people I've just mentioned if its forever in opposition. What is the good of having beliefs if you are never in a position to change things.
MaliksMohsin
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Only Liz Kendall can take on the Tories. Her long term economic plan helps the hard working people of Britain and that is why she represents the greatest threat to the Tories, as a party of government, rather than a party of protest. As Liz said, the country comes, and that is why you should all register to vote for her and her long term economic plan so that the hard working people of this country can benefit from Labour as all the wonderful things Labour did were in government, not in opposition
Vote Liz, vote Labour!
Vote Liz, vote Labour!
Gabbar Singh
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You are right - Liz is the most likely candidate to beat Cameron/Gideon/Boris at the next election but Labour members seem too stupid to see this.
She won't win the leadership contest.
The latest odds....
MaliksMohsin
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Exactly! They just can't see it, they want to be a party of principled opposition than a party of government!
Liz is also the only one supporting the points based system, I want to see all these migrants out!
Hitler won elections and did a lot of good for the German people. Didn't stop him being a war criminal.
if all you are interested in is power join the tories then, you stated you don't care about principles
Tory grandee Ken Clarke reckons Corbyn could win a General Election http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/7925964
Ken Livingstone
Back in 1980 I supported the Right-wing candidate Denis Healey for leader over Michael Foot. I loved Michael and I agreed with his politics but I didn’t believe he could win the general election and I wouldn’t be supporting Jeremy if he couldn’t. For all the talk about Left versus Right and Labour versus Tory the simple truth is that for the last 35 years Thatcher and then Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron have followed broadly the same economic strategy that has seen the richest one per cent watch their wealth double while ordinary families struggle to make ends meet.
What makes me angry about this is that my generation is the luckiest in human history. Born into post-war Britain’s welfare state we all got a job, healthcare, free education and help to buy our homes or pay our rents. I want my children and grandchildren to have the same opportunities we had. I believe Jeremy Corbyn is the best chance to achieve that and take Labour back to Downing Street.
Back in 1980 I supported the Right-wing candidate Denis Healey for leader over Michael Foot. I loved Michael and I agreed with his politics but I didn’t believe he could win the general election and I wouldn’t be supporting Jeremy if he couldn’t. For all the talk about Left versus Right and Labour versus Tory the simple truth is that for the last 35 years Thatcher and then Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron have followed broadly the same economic strategy that has seen the richest one per cent watch their wealth double while ordinary families struggle to make ends meet.
What makes me angry about this is that my generation is the luckiest in human history. Born into post-war Britain’s welfare state we all got a job, healthcare, free education and help to buy our homes or pay our rents. I want my children and grandchildren to have the same opportunities we had. I believe Jeremy Corbyn is the best chance to achieve that and take Labour back to Downing Street.
Clarke is someone who is respected across the political spectrum so quite a statement coming from him. This is why the rabid right wing are rowing back furiously from their former positions of treating Corbyn as a 'joke' and wanting him to win. Janet Daley in the Telegraph coming up with some particularly pathetic articles.
Always worth trying to keep an independent view and not just go with the mainstream media which tends to be right wing. Note even the supposed left wing Guardian getting criticised by its readers for being so biased against Corbyn.
The British people tend to be quite savvy and have an inate sense of fair play and so will see through press hysteria and come out in support.
There is no telling what will happen over the next few years. Quite possible Tories will split down the middle on a major issue like Europe and who is to say how far the Child Abuse scandal will go. Looks like much of the highest echelons of the Tory party were involved in one way or another in either direct abuse or in covering it up or in looking the other way. Much smaller matters have brought down Governments in the past.
The British people tend to be quite savvy and have an inate sense of fair play and so will see through press hysteria and come out in support.
There is no telling what will happen over the next few years. Quite possible Tories will split down the middle on a major issue like Europe and who is to say how far the Child Abuse scandal will go. Looks like much of the highest echelons of the Tory party were involved in one way or another in either direct abuse or in covering it up or in looking the other way. Much smaller matters have brought down Governments in the past.
Robert
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A closer look at Corbyn suggests that he is closer to being pro-business than is obvious. Like FDR in the thirties he wants investment in infrastructure and fast comms to create jobs in the short term and ultimately attract foreign investment.
A proper leftist Leader would help win seats back in Scotland because you need to come across as an ideologue up there, not just some Westminster technocrat like Odd Moribund.
Might attract back the Labour voters who leaned to UKIP in 2015 too.
The opposition to a Trident replacement is a major vote-loser in England, though.
Ah this nugget again. Why do the hard left think if you want to win elections and be more than just a left-wing pressure group you must be a Tory.
It is possible to keep Labour core values like investment in public services, reducing inequality and protecting the welfare safety net AND appeal to the centre ground. People already KNOW what Labour stand for, they know we'll do these things but what they didn't see was how we'll manage the economy or whether we could appeal to businesses.
We didn't lose because we weren't left wing enough just as the Tories lost in 2001 and 2005 because they thought they weren't right wing enough ! Yet they won when Cameron moved them to the centre which is where most voters are.
Look I've nothing against Corbyn personally. But why do you think the Telegraph called upon its readers to join Labour so they could vote Corbyn ? Ken Clarke is obviously trolling when he says he thinks Corbyn might win, he along with Tory HQ will be praying for a Corbyn victory so they can put us out of power for a generation.
By then we'll have no public services left to protect, the NHS sold off, £11,000 student tuition fees and affordable housing only for the rich.
oh yes the people know very well how New Labour mis-managed the economy.
Brown sold off the UK's Gold at the lowest price possible with suggestions it was done to bail out Labours friends at Goldman Sachs who were massively short of Gold.
Not to mention the massive de-regulation of the City during the New Labour era and the so called 'end of boom and bust' which led to the massive crash from which we are still suffering the after effects 2 Parliaments on !
KingKhanWC
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The Zionist run media will never allow Corbyn to become PM. He speaks the truth especially against Israel, doesn't have the criteria to lead a country such as the UK.
Gabbar Singh
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Shock, horror - Tory 'grandee' bigs up Corbyn. Mmmm I wonder why that could be.
Meanwhile those within Labour really are starting to get very worried. Ironically had AJ actually stood for the leadership in 2010 and won he would have done a lot better than Ed M in the recent election.
[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] is spot on - Labour's shift to the left at the last election was one of the reasons for their humiliating defeat in May and their solution to this problem, according to some so called well wishers, is to shift even further to the left. They are just mimicking what the Tories did with Hague, IDS and then Howard. Just how many times will Labour have to be humiliated at the general election before these deluded lefty activists and commentators pull their heads out of the sand and change their archaic and self defeating mindset.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-madness-over-jeremy-corbyn-says-alan-johnson
Eagle_Eye
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What lurch to the left? They are ***** footing around.
They need a genuine candidate who comes across sincere and is conviction politician......
What blairite wing cannot stand is that Corbyn has struck a cord with grass root workers as well as wider public. If he was a left wing loony, that would not be the case.
Same arguments and charcter assassinations were carried out by the blairite wing against Ken Livingstone for the mayoral race. Not only did he win once but twice and London did not fall to pieces and people like [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] can soon claim their free bus pass
thanks to Ken.
The electorate needs genuine left arguments on the table and not variation of essentially the same.
Vote for Yvette Cooper is a vote for Ed balls, the single most reason why labour was not trusted with the economy.
They need a genuine candidate who comes across sincere and is conviction politician......
What blairite wing cannot stand is that Corbyn has struck a cord with grass root workers as well as wider public. If he was a left wing loony, that would not be the case.
Same arguments and charcter assassinations were carried out by the blairite wing against Ken Livingstone for the mayoral race. Not only did he win once but twice and London did not fall to pieces and people like [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] can soon claim their free bus pass
thanks to Ken.The electorate needs genuine left arguments on the table and not variation of essentially the same.
Vote for Yvette Cooper is a vote for Ed balls, the single most reason why labour was not trusted with the economy.
I've signed up as a Supporter so I can vote. It really does just take a minute of your time.
http://www.labour.org.uk/w/labour-party-supporters
http://www.labour.org.uk/w/labour-party-supporters
Robert
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It will be a few years before I can claim my free bus pass thank you.
And it was not Ken's idea. The freedom pass was introduced in 1973, before he was even leader of the GLC Labour Group.
Eagle_Eye
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It will be a few years before I can claim my free bus pass thank you.
I meant the freedom pass, which is extention to the bus pass and lets you travel on tube and trains.
Stormin' Corbyn touring The North in the coming week
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godzilla
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from what ive read i like all but his economic policy and thats why i think he and labour will continue to lose. labour friends of israel and trying to throw as much mud as they can at him, and even if that doesnt work and he wins, the big funders will leave in droves for the same reasons. britain is moving a little, probably not least because of the number of young immigrant adults, to a hard working ethic from an ingrained sedentary culture of enititlement - thats what personally i believe was behind the tory surprise in the last election and why they will continue to succeed in the future. most of the electorate prioritise money. and demographics seem to suggest that working and aspiring people have more voting power than state scroungers.
if there were a party which championed sensible and sustainable economic policies (including low taxes for hard working people, higher taxes for the ultra rich, low spend and costs and debt reduction), combined with a leftish labour social philosophical direction (adjusted to spend within means rather than irresponsibly borrowing from the future or scaring off rainmakers) - it would be a no brainer grand slam win for the party, the people, the country and the world.
instead we have either social and human responsibility combined with economic incompetence, or economic competence combined with hawkish war mongering and accelerating social divide.
if there were a party which championed sensible and sustainable economic policies (including low taxes for hard working people, higher taxes for the ultra rich, low spend and costs and debt reduction), combined with a leftish labour social philosophical direction (adjusted to spend within means rather than irresponsibly borrowing from the future or scaring off rainmakers) - it would be a no brainer grand slam win for the party, the people, the country and the world.
instead we have either social and human responsibility combined with economic incompetence, or economic competence combined with hawkish war mongering and accelerating social divide.
I like his economic policy but even if I didn't I'd say we should surely subsume economic policy to social policy anyway. Many of his economic policies are no different to those practiced by German/Scandinavian economies. I don't think his Keynesian macro policies are at odds with any required micro Institutional changes to prevent/deter any supposed 'scrounging'.
It is unfortunate that the right-wing press with their dog-whistle scaremongering inflate and conflate many minor issues with the benefits system into macro issues which will threaten the 'middle' classes. But then they do the same with Muslims/Islam so should not be any surprise that people start to inculcate those views into their own Weltanschauung.
It is unfortunate that the right-wing press with their dog-whistle scaremongering inflate and conflate many minor issues with the benefits system into macro issues which will threaten the 'middle' classes. But then they do the same with Muslims/Islam so should not be any surprise that people start to inculcate those views into their own Weltanschauung.
godzilla
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im not sure i agree that economic policy should be subsumed to social policy, i think the two are inextricably linked. i dont understand why responsible social policy has to be funded by leverage or penalising people who do work hard, as opposed to targeting corporations and the ultra rich. which are the same come to think of it. either way, until labour address that issue at a point in the economic cycle where aspiration and opportunity are more prominent than entitlement, they wont garner appeal. not that that should be the motivation for drawing up principles. if his economic policies are no different to many scandinavian or german economies, then all the more reason he should revise them. all of those countries are substantially better off than the uk. uk gdp per capita is usd 41.8k, its 100.8k for norway, 60.4k for sweden, and 46.3k for germany. we cant afford it.
that doesnt mean to say you let pensioners starve to death. but if you want to feed them, it doesnt mean to say you take from the man that is working, or take from the future in terms of debt. as you noted earlier, we already have seen and are still reeling from labours last bout of socialist economic policy.
i dont think it is scare mongering on the economy either, as highlighted by your own quote on post bliar/brown financials - at th end of the day none of the parties give specific financial information necessary to be able to compare their fiscal responsibility properly, each relying on soundbites, so most of the arguments are mostly going to be anecdotal. whichever way they point. and in my opinion socialist economics are not only unjust, they are unworkable and unvotable. greece isnt yet in the rear view mirror yet, remember, and the uk does not have a magic well filled with money. (because blair and thatcher before him sold it all off).
godzilla
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ultimately, we agree on his social philosophy in general, but i dont understand how he funds the programmes he wants to put in place, just like most people were struggling to understand how milliband was going to fund his plans. and as i understand it, corbyn will be spending a lot more than milliband would have. mansion taxes? middle class taxes? where do we find this money? this is what greece did. thats why their pension burden is so egregiously large for example.
oh and you can free up another £50bn from not going ahead with HS2
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-if-Jeremy-Corbyn-wins-Labour-leadership.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-if-Jeremy-Corbyn-wins-Labour-leadership.html
godzilla
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incidentally, on those debt figure examples i gave, turns out the numbers are even worse, those are gross external deby numbers. if you look at net public debt (netted out for debt held of other countries) the numbers are uk 82%, uk 87%, germany 57%, sweden and norway run positive public net debt balances!!! all as a percentage of gdp according to the imf.
godzilla
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yes, i completely agree with scraping trident. but if its that simple, why isnt corbyn saying this rather than talking about increasing spending, and refusing to talk about when the deficit will be reduced? 100bn would go a long way to funding his deficit, but hes not saying he will fund it from trident.
godzilla
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bottom line i think it would be the best thing for the country for him to win the labour race. that way we get the best of him and avoid the worst. we get to hear his social conscientiousness from the opposition bench, but thankfully his fingers will be far from the treasury purse strings.
Pretty sure he will be anti Trident he is a major part of the StopWar coalition alongside CND etc
Strikes me as a no brainer all this talk of Mansion tax etc which would raise just £1bn a year versus a potential £150bn saving from scrapping some projects which simply pander to the scroungers of the Military Industrial Complex
That is why the more perceptive Right who originally welcomed him as 'destroying Labour' changed their tune. To them it isn't enough that he won't be in power they simply don't even want the debate about stuff like Trident to be raised.
Strikes me as a no brainer all this talk of Mansion tax etc which would raise just £1bn a year versus a potential £150bn saving from scrapping some projects which simply pander to the scroungers of the Military Industrial Complex
That is why the more perceptive Right who originally welcomed him as 'destroying Labour' changed their tune. To them it isn't enough that he won't be in power they simply don't even want the debate about stuff like Trident to be raised.
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It's no point getting too concerned about the debt figures. Where else are international fixed income investors going to go when they are more concerned about preservation of capital rather than return on capital ?
We had a once in a hundred years financial catastrophe like the Great Depression which needed a Keynesian response not a free market laissez faire approach of allowing a death spiral of liquidation and deflation. As long as the debt is going into long term infrastructure its all good. Look how Japan and Germany developed after the Second World War because they HAD to rebuild and couldn't waste money on pointless things like defence spending and so could focus on building public infrastructure rather than military infrastructure.
We had a once in a hundred years financial catastrophe like the Great Depression which needed a Keynesian response not a free market laissez faire approach of allowing a death spiral of liquidation and deflation. As long as the debt is going into long term infrastructure its all good. Look how Japan and Germany developed after the Second World War because they HAD to rebuild and couldn't waste money on pointless things like defence spending and so could focus on building public infrastructure rather than military infrastructure.
Gabbar Singh
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Great advice tbh.
There are less than 24 hours left to do this. Vote Corbyn and finish off the Labour party for a generation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...adership-election-deadline-live-10449717.html
So let me make it absolutely clear that Labour under Jeremy Corbyn is committed to eliminating the deficit and creating an economy in which we live within our means.
Where the Corbyn campaign parts company with the dominant economic thinking of both the Conservative government and the other Labour leadership candidates is that we don’t believe that the vast majority of middle- and low-income earners who didn’t cause the economic crisis should have to pay for it through cuts in tax credits, pay freezes, and cuts in the essential services. Instead we believe we can tackle the deficit by halting the tax cuts to the very rich and to corporations, by making sure they pay their taxes, and by investing in the housing and infrastructure a modern country needs to get people back to work in good jobs.
We accept that cuts in public spending will help eliminate the deficit, but our cuts won’t be to the middle-and low-income earners and certainly not to the poor. Our cuts will be to the subsidies paid to landlords milking the housing benefit system, to the £93bn in subsidies to corporations, and to employers exploiting workers with low wages and leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab.
Where we also part company with the economic orthodoxy of the Conservative and Labour establishments is that alongside tackling the deficit we also believe that we need an economic strategy to tackle the underlying flawed fundamentals of our economic system.
While our opponents wrongfully accuse anyone who disagrees with their austerity programmes as deficit deniers, they themselves seem to be crisis deniers. They fail to understand that the unregulated, law-of-the-jungle market system they advocate is inherently crisis-ridden. Unless we act on these fundamental flaws we really do doom the next and future generations to further inevitable crises.
In fact all the factors that caused the 2007-8 crisis are currently reappearing on the scene – frozen or low incomes, low productivity, asset inflation especially housing, a hands–off government turning a blind eye to loose credit expansion and City speculation, and a growing debt bubble.
Just like 2007 all it needs is a spark like Northern Rock to set things off again. The rehypothecation taking place in the bond markets could be the trigger this time, when the US starts unwinding its quantitative easing programme.
So alongside deficit elimination the Corbyn campaign is advocating a fundamental reform of our economic system. This will include the introduction of an effective regulatory regime for our banks and financial sector; a full-blown Glass-Steagall system separation of day-to-day and investment banking; legislation to replace short-term shareholder value with long-term sustainable economic and social responsibilities as the prime objective of companies; radical reform of the failed auditing regime; the extension of a wider range of forms of company and enterprise ownership and control including public, co-operative and stakeholder ownership; and the introduction of a financial transactions tax to fund the rebalancing of our economy towards production and manufacturing.
Public ownership does have an important role to play, but this will be through smart forms of 21st-century common ownership and control. For example, rail will be renationalised, but with a form of joint management involving workers and passenger representatives. Energy would be socialised from below by the massive expansion of renewable energy production and supply by local communities, local authorities and co-ops on the successful German model, removing the monopoly of the big six energy companies.
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...emy-corbyn-close-deficit-poor-labour-economy?
Where the Corbyn campaign parts company with the dominant economic thinking of both the Conservative government and the other Labour leadership candidates is that we don’t believe that the vast majority of middle- and low-income earners who didn’t cause the economic crisis should have to pay for it through cuts in tax credits, pay freezes, and cuts in the essential services. Instead we believe we can tackle the deficit by halting the tax cuts to the very rich and to corporations, by making sure they pay their taxes, and by investing in the housing and infrastructure a modern country needs to get people back to work in good jobs.
We accept that cuts in public spending will help eliminate the deficit, but our cuts won’t be to the middle-and low-income earners and certainly not to the poor. Our cuts will be to the subsidies paid to landlords milking the housing benefit system, to the £93bn in subsidies to corporations, and to employers exploiting workers with low wages and leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab.
Where we also part company with the economic orthodoxy of the Conservative and Labour establishments is that alongside tackling the deficit we also believe that we need an economic strategy to tackle the underlying flawed fundamentals of our economic system.
While our opponents wrongfully accuse anyone who disagrees with their austerity programmes as deficit deniers, they themselves seem to be crisis deniers. They fail to understand that the unregulated, law-of-the-jungle market system they advocate is inherently crisis-ridden. Unless we act on these fundamental flaws we really do doom the next and future generations to further inevitable crises.
In fact all the factors that caused the 2007-8 crisis are currently reappearing on the scene – frozen or low incomes, low productivity, asset inflation especially housing, a hands–off government turning a blind eye to loose credit expansion and City speculation, and a growing debt bubble.
Just like 2007 all it needs is a spark like Northern Rock to set things off again. The rehypothecation taking place in the bond markets could be the trigger this time, when the US starts unwinding its quantitative easing programme.
So alongside deficit elimination the Corbyn campaign is advocating a fundamental reform of our economic system. This will include the introduction of an effective regulatory regime for our banks and financial sector; a full-blown Glass-Steagall system separation of day-to-day and investment banking; legislation to replace short-term shareholder value with long-term sustainable economic and social responsibilities as the prime objective of companies; radical reform of the failed auditing regime; the extension of a wider range of forms of company and enterprise ownership and control including public, co-operative and stakeholder ownership; and the introduction of a financial transactions tax to fund the rebalancing of our economy towards production and manufacturing.
Public ownership does have an important role to play, but this will be through smart forms of 21st-century common ownership and control. For example, rail will be renationalised, but with a form of joint management involving workers and passenger representatives. Energy would be socialised from below by the massive expansion of renewable energy production and supply by local communities, local authorities and co-ops on the successful German model, removing the monopoly of the big six energy companies.
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...emy-corbyn-close-deficit-poor-labour-economy?
TSA321
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I joined Labour a week ago just to vote against Corbyn.
http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ill-not-be-enough-oust-him-generation-jeremy?
This aspect of Corbynmania contains a warning for the party's moderates. Commentators are already talking about moves against Mr Corbyn if, or rather when, he becomes leader. It is taken for granted that he will not get a shot at the premiership at the general election in 2020. That may well be the case. It is, after all, hard to imagine him imposing coherence and discipline on a parliamentary party largely opposed to him and his brand of politics. Yet he may have a powerful mandate from Labour's membership. His opponents will topple him from the top of the party if they want. But they will not be able to oust the increasingly left-wing base that put him there.
Read more at http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ust-him-generation-jeremy#6SXL8GVaFDcf77Jw.99
This aspect of Corbynmania contains a warning for the party's moderates. Commentators are already talking about moves against Mr Corbyn if, or rather when, he becomes leader. It is taken for granted that he will not get a shot at the premiership at the general election in 2020. That may well be the case. It is, after all, hard to imagine him imposing coherence and discipline on a parliamentary party largely opposed to him and his brand of politics. Yet he may have a powerful mandate from Labour's membership. His opponents will topple him from the top of the party if they want. But they will not be able to oust the increasingly left-wing base that put him there.
Read more at http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ust-him-generation-jeremy#6SXL8GVaFDcf77Jw.99
Gabbar Singh
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Gabbar Singh
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Let's hope we don't see any postal voting fraud like we usually see from Labour, especially in the north of England, in order to screw Corbyn and rig the election.
James
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Corbyn would not have a cat in hell's chance of winning a General Election. Him, his policies and his supporters are an instant turn-off for the majority of people.
The optimism amongst many in the party about Ed's appointment seems laughable now, I am personally embarrassed by my prediction that he would do well. Public opinion of the Coalition has been so negative that any half-decent politician would have pwned Cameron and be on the road to a Labour win. Even with Ed, the polls are level
You should know full well how your own predictions are flawed.
For a guy who couldn't control his own wife he seems remarkably confident of controlling the PLP
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...oup-on-day-one-says-labour-mp_n_7976620.html?
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...oup-on-day-one-says-labour-mp_n_7976620.html?
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...byn-is-now-a-hero-to-the-young-a2487406.html?
Emily Ashton: Hearing 'Jez we can' proves Corbyn is now a hero to the young
With his simple anti-austerity message the veteran Left-winger has struck a chord with disillusioned voters
EMILY ASHTON Wednesday 12 August 2015 11:19 BST0 comments
2
Future's red: Jeremy Corbyn has captured the imagination of young voters in his leadership bid
Whatever you make of him, there’s no doubt Jeremy Corbyn has galvanised the youth vote in the Labour leadership election. This week’s YouGov poll for the Times suggested that 56 per cent of 18- to 24-year-olds and 58 per cent of 25- to 39- year-old eligible voters will opt for Corbyn in the first round. That compares to 23 per cent and 13 per cent for Andy Burnham respectively.
Have a glance online and you’ll find a vast array of Facebook groups dedicated to Corbyn; students sharing behind-the-scenes photos and information on upcoming events. On one community group, a proud voter writes simply: “Jez we f@#&ing can!” A great many have only registered as supporters of Labour to specifically vote for Corbyn.
So what is it that Corbyn — the 66-year-old backbencher for Islington North — has got that others haven’t? A clear, authentic message is key. He is advocating an anti-austerity message that has hit home. He doesn’t indulge in the Punch and Judy politics of Westminster; he refuses to brief against colleagues, he won’t talk about personalities, and positively bristles with embarrassment if anyone says they find him sexy.
He is all about the issues; above all, according to Corbyn’s camp, he is all about hope. Corbyn himself admits he’s simply part of a Left-wing, anti-Establishment surge sweeping Europe, from Syriza in Greece to Podemos in Spain.
This is hugely appealing to younger people. I chatted to a few Corbyn fans at a heaving rally in Camden Town Hall last week. They were among the keen supporters at the front of a long snaking queue. One student from Warwick University said she’d joined the party “just for Jeremy”, adding: “I heard about him from two friends; they said: ‘Join Labour because this person is amazing.”
A 23-year-old mum from Ealing, originally from Liverpool, added: “Jeremy is saying these things that are just common sense. Things that make the world go round for everyone, not just the top one per cent. I just think people have been crying out for this.”
Inside the hall, the atmosphere was electric. “Jez we can! Jez we can!” An ecstatic sea of people were on their feet, chanting and clapping as Corbyn took to the stage. He was an unlikely rock star; he made a heartfelt speech, hands held behind his back. The front pocket of his yellow shirt bulged with a pen and a glasses case. His beard and vest shone under the glare of the lights.
Some fans perched precariously on a window ledge outside to hear the man speak. Others proudly wore #JezWeCan acrylic necklaces, JC badges and brandished red-and-white posters above their heads. Hundreds of people held their phones aloft to capture the moment. It was impossible not to get swept up in the wave of excitement.
I realise how ridiculous this sounds. This is a veteran Left-winger who has spent more than 30 years on the back benches. The serial rebel previously best known for speaking at anti-war rallies and largely ignored by the mainstream press. The man who, just two short months ago, only just made it onto the leadership ballot paper thanks to several MPs who switched sides to nominate him and “widen the debate”.
Well, the debate has certainly been widened. Corbyn is now the clear odds-on favourite to become Labour leader on September 12. And many MPs and party staffers are horrified. Some are furious that Corbyn’s main rivals — Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham — have allowed the Left-winger to steal the show by failing to inspire voters themselves. Others desperately worry that if Corbyn wins he will lead Labour into a wilderness from which it will be unable to win an election for a long time to come.
Last week’s event didn’t just attract young people: there were ageing union representatives who grabbed a pint in the pub across the road beforehand, sellers of the Socialist Worker, and middle-aged couples who waited patiently to get a seat. I asked one such duo why they were there. “We know Jeremy from old,” the woman said. “I used to work with him in Haringey.” Some Labour MPs fear Corbyn is attracting a rush of “metropolitan” supporters long drawn to his campaigns on green energy and nuclear disarmament.
John Mann, who represents Bassetlaw in Nottinghamshire, told me: “If you’ve got the CND [Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament] mailing list, it’s easy enough to get all the CND-ers to join for £3.” On Corbyn’s support base in London, he claimed: “These people are wealthy enough, they’re the middle classes; it’s people who are doing well who back Corbyn. It’s retired teachers, artists, theatre directors. They’re entitled to their views but they’re not people tempted by Ukip or the Tories.”
The suggestion is that many Corbyn fans — who can vote in the leadership election this time without actually joining the Labour Party — are happy to see a protest movement rather than a Labour government because they’re rich enough not to need one. A senior Labour campaigner confided that they are “seriously scared” about the future of the country if Corbyn wins and the party fails to win back power. They believe Corbyn is being used by the trade unions as a “useful idiot” to ensure Labour lurches to the Left.
But it is clear that Burnham and Cooper have failed to set the contest alight. Burnham appears to have confused many people by abstaining on a crucial welfare vote despite arguing against Tory cuts. Cooper seems to be struggling to articulate where she would take the party. Both have just two days to convince people before the ballot papers are sent out. Meanwhile, Liz Kendall has plummeted in the polls.
In the final weeks, Corbyn will continue to address rallies across the nation. Tomorrow and Friday he is off to Scotland, where big events in Edinburgh and Glasgow have sold out. Can he really win back the vast swathes of former Labour voters who turned to the SNP?
Whether or not he becomes leader, he urged the crowd in London last week to keep up the momentum. “The alternative of staying at home and shouting at the television will achieve nothing,” he said. The fear within Labour is that a vote for Corbyn may also achieve nothing if it means never gaining power.
Emily Ashton is senior political correspondent for BuzzFeed UK
Emily Ashton: Hearing 'Jez we can' proves Corbyn is now a hero to the young
With his simple anti-austerity message the veteran Left-winger has struck a chord with disillusioned voters
EMILY ASHTON Wednesday 12 August 2015 11:19 BST0 comments
2
Future's red: Jeremy Corbyn has captured the imagination of young voters in his leadership bid
Whatever you make of him, there’s no doubt Jeremy Corbyn has galvanised the youth vote in the Labour leadership election. This week’s YouGov poll for the Times suggested that 56 per cent of 18- to 24-year-olds and 58 per cent of 25- to 39- year-old eligible voters will opt for Corbyn in the first round. That compares to 23 per cent and 13 per cent for Andy Burnham respectively.
Have a glance online and you’ll find a vast array of Facebook groups dedicated to Corbyn; students sharing behind-the-scenes photos and information on upcoming events. On one community group, a proud voter writes simply: “Jez we f@#&ing can!” A great many have only registered as supporters of Labour to specifically vote for Corbyn.
So what is it that Corbyn — the 66-year-old backbencher for Islington North — has got that others haven’t? A clear, authentic message is key. He is advocating an anti-austerity message that has hit home. He doesn’t indulge in the Punch and Judy politics of Westminster; he refuses to brief against colleagues, he won’t talk about personalities, and positively bristles with embarrassment if anyone says they find him sexy.
He is all about the issues; above all, according to Corbyn’s camp, he is all about hope. Corbyn himself admits he’s simply part of a Left-wing, anti-Establishment surge sweeping Europe, from Syriza in Greece to Podemos in Spain.
This is hugely appealing to younger people. I chatted to a few Corbyn fans at a heaving rally in Camden Town Hall last week. They were among the keen supporters at the front of a long snaking queue. One student from Warwick University said she’d joined the party “just for Jeremy”, adding: “I heard about him from two friends; they said: ‘Join Labour because this person is amazing.”
A 23-year-old mum from Ealing, originally from Liverpool, added: “Jeremy is saying these things that are just common sense. Things that make the world go round for everyone, not just the top one per cent. I just think people have been crying out for this.”
Inside the hall, the atmosphere was electric. “Jez we can! Jez we can!” An ecstatic sea of people were on their feet, chanting and clapping as Corbyn took to the stage. He was an unlikely rock star; he made a heartfelt speech, hands held behind his back. The front pocket of his yellow shirt bulged with a pen and a glasses case. His beard and vest shone under the glare of the lights.
Some fans perched precariously on a window ledge outside to hear the man speak. Others proudly wore #JezWeCan acrylic necklaces, JC badges and brandished red-and-white posters above their heads. Hundreds of people held their phones aloft to capture the moment. It was impossible not to get swept up in the wave of excitement.
I realise how ridiculous this sounds. This is a veteran Left-winger who has spent more than 30 years on the back benches. The serial rebel previously best known for speaking at anti-war rallies and largely ignored by the mainstream press. The man who, just two short months ago, only just made it onto the leadership ballot paper thanks to several MPs who switched sides to nominate him and “widen the debate”.
Well, the debate has certainly been widened. Corbyn is now the clear odds-on favourite to become Labour leader on September 12. And many MPs and party staffers are horrified. Some are furious that Corbyn’s main rivals — Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham — have allowed the Left-winger to steal the show by failing to inspire voters themselves. Others desperately worry that if Corbyn wins he will lead Labour into a wilderness from which it will be unable to win an election for a long time to come.
Last week’s event didn’t just attract young people: there were ageing union representatives who grabbed a pint in the pub across the road beforehand, sellers of the Socialist Worker, and middle-aged couples who waited patiently to get a seat. I asked one such duo why they were there. “We know Jeremy from old,” the woman said. “I used to work with him in Haringey.” Some Labour MPs fear Corbyn is attracting a rush of “metropolitan” supporters long drawn to his campaigns on green energy and nuclear disarmament.
John Mann, who represents Bassetlaw in Nottinghamshire, told me: “If you’ve got the CND [Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament] mailing list, it’s easy enough to get all the CND-ers to join for £3.” On Corbyn’s support base in London, he claimed: “These people are wealthy enough, they’re the middle classes; it’s people who are doing well who back Corbyn. It’s retired teachers, artists, theatre directors. They’re entitled to their views but they’re not people tempted by Ukip or the Tories.”
The suggestion is that many Corbyn fans — who can vote in the leadership election this time without actually joining the Labour Party — are happy to see a protest movement rather than a Labour government because they’re rich enough not to need one. A senior Labour campaigner confided that they are “seriously scared” about the future of the country if Corbyn wins and the party fails to win back power. They believe Corbyn is being used by the trade unions as a “useful idiot” to ensure Labour lurches to the Left.
But it is clear that Burnham and Cooper have failed to set the contest alight. Burnham appears to have confused many people by abstaining on a crucial welfare vote despite arguing against Tory cuts. Cooper seems to be struggling to articulate where she would take the party. Both have just two days to convince people before the ballot papers are sent out. Meanwhile, Liz Kendall has plummeted in the polls.
In the final weeks, Corbyn will continue to address rallies across the nation. Tomorrow and Friday he is off to Scotland, where big events in Edinburgh and Glasgow have sold out. Can he really win back the vast swathes of former Labour voters who turned to the SNP?
Whether or not he becomes leader, he urged the crowd in London last week to keep up the momentum. “The alternative of staying at home and shouting at the television will achieve nothing,” he said. The fear within Labour is that a vote for Corbyn may also achieve nothing if it means never gaining power.
Emily Ashton is senior political correspondent for BuzzFeed UK
Eagle_Eye
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Disgraceful and purile behaviour by the tory-lite of the labour party.
To be fair to Corbyn his meetings are packed and he's addressing the issues that resonate with people.
Its interesting watching Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story" and the deep anger people are feeling Stateside - its not just us Brits who are feeling angry and disenfranchised, these last few years has been a major crisis of Western democracy. Much of the rhetoric is same over here. We've had a sort of "reverse socialism" where the banks have had government handouts whilst the taxpayers are being squeezed. We need gutsy leadership.
What I'd like to see from the others is more vision - President Franklin D Roosevelt's "economic bill of rights" comes to mind - things like a right for a family to a decent home, free education, commitment to universal healthcare and not creeping privatisation of the NHS. Set out what type of country you want to live in.
Do something ballsy for god's sake, announce some big policies - politicians should be more than merely "Chief Operating Officer" of a country. Who cares what Murdoch says ? Its unbelievable how dull, how visionless and how devoid of charisma this current generation of politicos are. Yvette Cooper will put you to sleep in 5 mins flat.
Its interesting watching Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story" and the deep anger people are feeling Stateside - its not just us Brits who are feeling angry and disenfranchised, these last few years has been a major crisis of Western democracy. Much of the rhetoric is same over here. We've had a sort of "reverse socialism" where the banks have had government handouts whilst the taxpayers are being squeezed. We need gutsy leadership.
What I'd like to see from the others is more vision - President Franklin D Roosevelt's "economic bill of rights" comes to mind - things like a right for a family to a decent home, free education, commitment to universal healthcare and not creeping privatisation of the NHS. Set out what type of country you want to live in.
Do something ballsy for god's sake, announce some big policies - politicians should be more than merely "Chief Operating Officer" of a country. Who cares what Murdoch says ? Its unbelievable how dull, how visionless and how devoid of charisma this current generation of politicos are. Yvette Cooper will put you to sleep in 5 mins flat.
This takes the biscuit from the war criminal and liar Blair.
"Even if you hate me don't vote Corbyn"
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-dont-take-labour-over-cliff-edge-tony-blair?
"Even if you hate me don't vote Corbyn"
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-dont-take-labour-over-cliff-edge-tony-blair?
Gabbar Singh
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