MS Dhoni is better than Michael Bevan - He is the BEST finisher of the game

[Big Mac]

razzaq was too a good finisher.

Popeye was a fantastic hitter and could score heavily in the final overs but he wasn't a finisher like Bevan or Dhoni. Those guys make calculations after each over, know exactly where the gaps are and seem like they're toying with the bowlers at time.

Razzaq would either tuk tuk or hit it out of the ground.

 

[Pro Era]

60 overs ring a bell? '75, '79, '83 english pitches, ring a bell? no 3rd umpire hence benefiting the batsman ring a bell?

each era comes with its own pros and cons. no era is "easier" than the other. but it is the modern cricketers who have EVOLVED the game of cricket.

LOL right....and that's why the average scores have jumped up. Not because the pitches are easier to bat on and the boundaries are a lot closer.

You're lying to yourself if you don't think this era by far has the easiest batting conditions. Why did Sangakarra average 35 in the 2000s but average 55+ in the 2010s? Because he just evolved his game 20 fold? Or because the conditions just got a lot easier and batting became a lot easier? It's definitely the latter...ask yourself this. Do you think that Suresh Raina would be able to average 35+ batting in the 90s? Never, and if you think so you're lying.

Explain to me how players in the 80s, 90s and 2000s didn't have more difficult batting conditions. Considering the wickets are proven to be more difficult.

 

[Pro Era]

Technology rings the bell, video footage rings the bell, no doubt he might have scored a run, but his weakness would have been found out as well.

Like they haven't had video footage for years? It's not like technology was developed yesterday, bowlers could still analyze the game in the 80s...and it's not like teams didn't have guys who analyzed batsman to find their weaknesses. And even newer technology doesn't make up for how easy it is to bat on these surfaces.

I think you guys forget that SRT scored a double century while literally being on his last leg as a batsman, far past his prime within the modern era. If that was any other day and age, he would not be able to, hence why it had never been done before.

Unless you honestly want to tell me that Rohit Sharma is capable of scoring 2 double centuries in any other decade besides this one...if you honestly do, you've lost you're mind.

This decade is all about batting. The average scores are easily the highest, the SRs are easily the highest, they've introduced systems like the batting powerplay.

 

[Itachi]

LOL right....and that's why the average scores have jumped up. Not because the pitches are easier to bat on and the boundaries are a lot closer.

You're lying to yourself if you don't think this era by far has the easiest batting conditions. Why did Sangakarra average 35 in the 2000s but average 55+ in the 2010s? Because he just evolved his game 20 fold? Or because the conditions just got a lot easier and batting became a lot easier? It's definitely the latter...ask yourself this. Do you think that Suresh Raina would be able to average 35+ batting in the 90s? Never, and if you think so you're lying.

Explain to me how players in the 80s, 90s and 2000s didn't have more difficult batting conditions. Considering the wickets are proven to be more difficult.

if i take your logic into consideration, then Steyn is the greatest bowler the world has ever seen....

Steyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (read 1000times greater) than any X,Y,Z bowler where these x,y,z bowlers includes marshall, mcgrath, warne and George Lohmann.

 

[Buffet]

if i take your logic into consideration, then Steyn is the greatest bowler the world has ever seen....

Not far from reality.

 

[Pro Era]

if i take your logic into consideration, then Steyn is the greatest bowler the world has ever seen....

Steyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (read 1000times greater) than any X,Y,Z bowler where these x,y,z bowlers includes marshall, mcgrath, warne and George Lohmann.

LOL don't try to exaggerate too much. Those guys are still better bowlers than Steyn, they had more abilities and took wickets more regularly, and have the longevity in their career to surpass Steyn's ability. You actually can see with your own eyes that Steyn's better. Using your logic, AB De Villiers, Hashim Amla and Virat Kohli are by far greater than SRT, Ponting, Viv Richards ever were based on averages alone. They have significantly higher averages and SRs...Steyn loses in economy by far which proves my point. Wasim had an economy rate of around 3.5 in his career and Steyn has an economy rate of 4.8. At the same time, it's not Steyn isn't a great bowler himself.

I mean how is it that Dhoni, De Villiers and Sangakarra have a significant increase in their batting averages and SR in the change from the 2000s to the 2010s?

 

[Itachi]

LOL don't try to exaggerate too much. Those guys are still better bowlers than Steyn, they had more abilities and took wickets more regularly, and have the longevity in their career to surpass Steyn's ability. You actually can see with your own eyes that Steyn's better.

changed the goal post already?

so we have to take a different frame of reference while judging batsman and a different one while judging bowlers....

and i thought both played in the same pitch....

modern day batsman are mediocre because with all the rules, pitch, boundary favoring batsman.... even pathetic batsman are averaging high.... But.... behold! while taking bowling into consideration, since it doesn't prove my point, let's change the whole reference frame.

 

[Buffet]

I mean how is it that Dhoni, De Villiers and Sangakarra have a significant increase in their batting averages and SR in the change from the 2000s to the 2010s?

Dhoni in 2000s: Avg 50 & SR 89
AB in 2000s: Avg 39 & SR 86
Sanga in 2000s: Avg 35 & SR 74

Dhoni was pretty much constant in both decades and I rate him very high. AB did improve in 2010s but he was still having a decent average with a very good SR. But you are right, AB did have a much better record in 2010s. Sanga was pretty average in 2000s when it comes to average and SR but he did cash in with new rules. Pretty much all batsmen are doing it and that's why we have so many 300+ scores.

Comparing avg and SR in ODI is not very meaningful across different eras. ODI games have been changing a lot. It's much better to see each decade and see how players were doing in each decade. Not perfect but gives a fair idea about skill of any player and how do they compare with their peers.

 

[IndianWillow]

changed the goal post already?

so we have to take a different frame of reference while judging batsman and a different one while judging bowlers....

and i thought both played in the same pitch....

modern day batsman are mediocre because with all the rules, pitch, boundary favoring batsman.... even pathetic batsman are averaging high.... But.... behold! while taking bowling into consideration, since it doesn't prove my point, let's change the whole reference frame.

The situation is more like this.

1. Batting is definitely easier in 2015 compared to 2005. Batsmen are making 20% more runs every innings with the new ODI rules. Average of 50 will soon be the benchmark for ODI.
2. Bowlers are generally finding it tough. But batsmen are playing more aggressively than ever before, they are playing more unorthodox shots and many ODI batsmen are T20 style sloggers. So even with little help from conditions, bowlers are sometimes unplayable these days. Good bowlers appear like great bowlers when they get the conditions because batsmen don't have the technique. If you check out this WC, the scores are either like 300 or like 150 - we don't see teams scoring 270 and the second batting team making a match out of it.

Both good batsmen and good bowlers are getting inflated records these days. The worst affected is the average batsman and bowler who do not know to exploit good conditions - many bowlers are routinely conceded 70+ runs in an ODI game now. Similarly batsmen from some teams are still struggling to make runs inspite of the new rules. Runs and wickets won't automatically come out of nowhere if you are not good enough, even in the modern game.

 

[Itachi]

Dhoni in 2000s: Avg 50 & SR 89
AB in 2000s: Avg 39 & SR 86
Sanga in 2000s: Avg 35 & SR 74

Dhoni was pretty much constant in both decades and I rate him very high. AB did improve in 2010s but he was still having a decent average with a very good SR. But you are right, AB did have a much better record in 2010s. Sanga was pretty average in 2000s when it comes to average and SR but he did cash in with new rules. Pretty much all batsmen are doing it and that's why we have so many 300+ scores.

Comparing avg and SR in ODI is not very meaningful across different eras. ODI games have been changing a lot. It's much better to see each decade and see how players were doing in each decade. Not perfect but gives a fair idea about skill of any player and how do they compare with their peers.

i don't buy this logic.

every cricketer has a peak era. there's a slope to the peak, and it gradually again goes downwards. the peak of dhoni, ab and sanga after 2010 was just co incidence because all the three are more or less, contemporary.

this doesn't prove that batting has become easier.

 

[Buffet]

i don't buy this logic.

every cricketer has a peak era. there's a slope to the peak, and it gradually again goes downwards. the peak of dhoni, ab and sanga after 2010 was just co incidence because all the three are more or less, contemporary.

this doesn't prove that batting has become easier.

Dhoni anyway has similar stats in all period so his name is actually counter productive to that argument.

Also, to make the argument for batting become easier with new rules, you don't need to pick Sanga or anyone as example. A batsman can play better or worse in some period due to other reasons as well so not a definite proof.

Simply look at collective avg and runs per over. Just in the last 9 years, we have seen a big change.

Last 3 years: avg 31 and runs per over is 5.2
3 years period before that: avg 30 and runs per over 5
3 years even before that: avg 29 and runs per over 4.9

You can see that batsmen collectively are scoring a bit more on average and they are scoring a lot more faster. That's why it's not very meaningful to compare avg and SR in ODIs for different eras.




http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...spanval2=span;template=results;type=aggregate

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...spanval2=span;template=results;type=aggregate

 

[Buffet]

^ there was some stats about number of centuries in this WC and previous WCs. See per match comparison. Difference is massive and it's mainly due to new rules.

 

[Pro Era]

changed the goal post already?

so we have to take a different frame of reference while judging batsman and a different one while judging bowlers....

and i thought both played in the same pitch....

modern day batsman are mediocre because with all the rules, pitch, boundary favoring batsman.... even pathetic batsman are averaging high.... But.... behold! while taking bowling into consideration, since it doesn't prove my point, let's change the whole reference frame.

changed the goal post already?

so we have to take a different frame of reference while judging batsman and a different one while judging bowlers....

and i thought both played in the same pitch....

modern day batsman are mediocre because with all the rules, pitch, boundary favoring batsman.... even pathetic batsman are averaging high.... But.... behold! while taking bowling into consideration, since it doesn't prove my point, let's change the whole reference frame.

....No. Just no, please stop with the nonsensical comments and you might be able to make a point out of your thinking. Steyn isn't the greatest bowler of all time, even in ODIs his record is not special by any means. Even though it is much more difficult to bowl, it's not like he's taking wickets in the same fashion of bowlers like Mcgrath, Wasim, Warne etc. They did have more to work with but they've taken a lot more wickets and also played through their entire careers, including the end part of their career in which they were not taking wickets regularly.

Steyn in his prime only has a 25 average in ODIs, Wasim had a 23 average by the end of his career while amassing 500 wickets. Do you think that Steyn will be able to amass that amount while also being able to have an economy rate under 4?

And tbf, Steyn is one of the greatest anyways lol

 

[Bhaijaan]

Three half centuries in a row in tense games.

What a fighter!

Still got it!

 

[Aman]

Greatest finisher I've seen.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Thala avgs mighty 103 in run chases in some 70 odd games playing as a middle order bat! This doesn't need any discussion at all! Dhoni is the greatest finisher ever in the history of the game and a true Legend! Take a bow master!

 

[Canford Cliffs]

For people like us who really understands cricket, we know MS Dhoni is a liability in the team now. But people who are cricket uneducated and look into it from an emotional angle...calls him greatest finisher, fighter etc. lol

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Got dropped on zero, Aussies missed his out easy run out chance, got a clear edge but somehow Aussies didnt appeal, took the required rate from 4 to 8.50, finally it took Jadhav to bring the rate down and win the game.

But as per Dhoni fans...MS is a finisher

 

[hurricanes]

Greatest finisher I've seen.

He will make sure India is finished in the WC alright...

 

[Tyler Durden]

This answers it all! to Thala!

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes he is undoubetly the greatest finisher. But to cement that fact he must now finish his career.

 

[jagatk]

This answers it all! to Thala!

View attachment 87239

what's the strike rate on these nos?

 

[Sachin136]

Got dropped on zero, Aussies missed his out easy run out chance, got a clear edge but somehow Aussies didnt appeal, took the required rate from 4 to 8.50, finally it took Jadhav to bring the rate down and win the game.

But as per Dhoni fans...MS is a finisher

MS is definitely a finisher, and probably the greatest ever. A certain ODI ATG, great WK-bat ever in ODIs, and one of the 10 best ODI batsmen ever.

Regardless of how he is doing now, those are facts.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Yes he is undoubtedly the greatest finisher. But to cement that fact he must now finish his career.

Agree

 

[Bhaijaan]

Man of the series!

 

[Aman]

I'm going to laugh if India's top order is cleaned up in a KO match and all these haters are forced to cheer for Dhoni to save them again after spending months bad mouthing a legend who brought them all their success in the first place.

Despicable fans.

 

[Hasan123]

I'll take Dhoni over Bevan. Dhoni could have played as a top order player but went lower down the order due to India's lack of options there and he has turned out to be 1 of the greatest finishers in LO.

For me Dhoni is without a doubt 1 of the greatest LO players in history. I haven't even mentioned his gun captaincy and his brilliant keeping .

Without a doubt 1 of my favourite Indian players of all time . And a player I have immense respect for.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

MS is definitely a finisher, and probably the greatest ever. A certain ODI ATG, great WK-bat ever in ODIs, and one of the 10 best ODI batsmen ever.

Regardless of how he is doing now, those are facts.

No one denied that MSD was a great batsman. But the adjective here is 'was'. That long hair Dhoni on whom entire country fell in love with was a beast. But he is a hand eye co-ordination player like Sehwag and was finished by 2013. At max he should have dragged his career by 2015 WC and then retired. But he is just a liability now and a hindrance to young players like Pant. He simply don't have the hitting abilities anymore and should not be playing world cup.

 

[Sachin136]

I'm going to laugh if India's top order is cleaned up in a KO match and all these haters are forced to cheer for Dhoni to save them again after spending months bad mouthing a legend who brought them all their success in the first place.

Despicable fans.

What's funny about that? Fans might not want Dhoni to be selected, but if he gets picked for the world cup, of course people are going to cheer for him.

 

[Aman]

What's funny about that? Fans might not want Dhoni to be selected, but if he gets picked for the world cup, of course people are going to cheer for him.

The man is the biggest reason behind your success, he established the winning culture in your team. The little respect many Indian fans have given him is sad to see considering your chances of winning the WC with or without Dhoni aren't great. There are too many holes in the team outside Dhoni but you're focusing on him despite all that he has done for the team. He should have the longest rope and the undying support of fans.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

I'm going to laugh if India's top order is cleaned up in a KO match and all these haters are forced to cheer for Dhoni to save them again after spending months bad mouthing a legend who brought them all their success in the first place.

Despicable fans.

We are not kiwis.
We had a world cup even before 2011.
Secondly MS dhoni didn't win the World Cup single handedly.
In fact all other top batsman scored more runs.
Yuvraj singh wast the MOTT. So even if we call a single person responsible for that world cup win it must be yuvraj singh.
World cup 2011 was a result of good performances by all our players.
Even in the finals gautam gambhirs knock was better.

 

[Aman]

We are not kiwis.
We had a world cup even before 2011.
Secondly MS dhoni didn't win the World Cup single handedly.
In fact all other top batsman scored more runs.
Yuvraj singh wast the MOTT. So even if we call a single person responsible for that world cup win it must be yuvraj singh.
World cup 2011 was a result of good performances by all our players.
Even in the finals gautam gambhirs knock was better.

You hadn't won a WC in 24 years, and yes he played a significant role in establishing a winning culture in the team and making them believe they could win it.

Without Dhoni, I doubt you win the 2011 WC or have anywhere near the level of success.

 

[Ab Fan]

The man is the biggest reason behind your success, he established the winning culture in your team. The little respect many Indian fans have given him is sad to see considering your chances of winning the WC with or without Dhoni aren't great. There are too many holes in the team outside Dhoni but you're focusing on him despite all that he has done for the team. He should have the longest rope and the undying support of fans.

Errr, what holes??

India are not having much issues, they have won pretty much everything since 2016 in ODIs home and away both.

If you are favouring Dhoni, then Jadhav and Karthik havent done anything wrong either. Pant is a solid backup, the only unfortunate part is he hasnt got chances. Pandya will be back, bowling is good with Bumrah, kuldeep, Shami, chahal and Bhuvi.

 

[Aman]

Errr, what holes??

India are not having much issues, they have won pretty much everything since 2016 in ODIs home and away both.

If you are favouring Dhoni, then Jadhav and Karthik havent done anything wrong either. Pant is a solid backup, the only unfortunate part is he hasnt got chances. Pandya will be back, bowling is good with Bumrah, kuldeep, Shami, chahal and Bhuvi.

Weak middle order and lower order. There's no real game changers there other than Pandaya but he isn't very consistent.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

You hadn't won a WC in 24 years, and yes he played a significant role in establishing a winning culture in the team and making them believe they could win it.

Without Dhoni, I doubt you win the 2011 WC or have anywhere near the level of success.

All players were equally important but yuvraj was tge standout performer.
You are really confusing ganguly's role with dhoni.

 

[Ab Fan]

Weak middle order and lower order. There's no real game changers there.

This is true that it is an issue that there is no game-changer in the middle order but Karthik and Jadhav are still as good as MSD v 2.0.

So, if you are backing MSD, not sure why you would call the middle order weak?

 

[Aman]

All players were equally important but yuvraj was tge standout performer.
You are really confusing ganguly's role with dhoni.

India only really became a force in LOs under Dhoni, I know they made a Final in 2003 but they were dumped out early in 2007 WC and had to rebuild. Dhoni picked up the pieces led India to ICC T20 WC, WC and CT wins...

 

[Aman]

This is true that it is an issue that there is no game-changer in the middle order but Karthik and Jadhav are still as good as MSD v 2.0.

So, if you are backing MSD, not sure why you would call the middle order weak?

Those two don't have the rope Dhoni has.

If they were to make changes, it should be those two who should be getting replaced and not Dhoni.

 

[Ab Fan]

Those two don't have the rope Dhoni has.

If they were to make changes, it should be those two who should be getting replaced and not Dhoni.

Jadhav will be there because he gives sixth bowling option which is important for LOs, particularly with Pandya as 5th option. Most likely India would look to have someone else at 4, Dhoni at 5, Jadhav at 6 and Pandya at7.

If they cant find anyone at 4 then Dhoni comes at 4, Jadhav 5, Pant 6 and Pandya 7 for me, not sure about team management though. Pant deserves chances too. He already looks excellent for LOs IMO watching his game in tests.

 

[ezhil]

Yuvraj was there in most of ganguly captaincy in many odi finals and also in 2003 world cup final

 

[Bhaijaan]

Dhoni needs a Yuvraj like figure around him in ODIs.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Jadhav will be there because he gives sixth bowling option which is important for LOs, particularly with Pandya as 5th option. Most likely India would look to have someone else at 4, Dhoni at 5, Jadhav at 6 and Pandya at7.

If they cant find anyone at 4 then Dhoni comes at 4, Jadhav 5, Pant 6 and Pandya 7 for me, not sure about team management though. Pant deserves chances too. He already looks excellent for LOs IMO watching his game in tests.

Jadhav has life long hamstring issues. He won't last the entire world cup without picking up another injury. Usually he does it during the middle of an innigs and become useless.

 

[BaankeJi]

Dhoni at no 4 is alright. He doesn't have to go boom at that position. Karthik and Pandya can do the job of a finisher for the team.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Dhoni at no 4 is alright. He doesn't have to go boom at that position. Karthik and Pandya can do the job of a finisher for the team.

Dhoni must bat at #5.

In case of 3 strikes down inside first 15 overs there must always be the Dhoni factor as last chance.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Got to love Dhoni, he's sealed his place now for the WC.

Against better bowlers, he will really struggle from now on.

 

[DRsohail]

He is yess.