Osama Bin Laden is DEAD

[kkmix]

Ample proof? I would like to hear them.

 

[Poison]

We're not saying his death was staged (still a possibility, very slim), but there is ample evidence to suggest not trusting the USA in matters such as these. For one, they haven't provided any evidence of Osama actually being dead, and by disposing of the body at sea they will never be able to disprove conspiracy theorists who believe Osama was killed years and years ago. After all they're the only ones who 'allegedly' studied the body last week (objective hey?)

'Conspiracy' theory has a stigma attached to it nowadays, when in essence it's just thinking against the grain. The first two you mentioned are stupid, mostly Pakistani theories. There are too many holes in the stories of 9/11 and Osama's death (right now at least) for me to accept what the US is saying at face value, sorry.

 

[Gotham Cronie]

Some of my FB posts on the matter:

 

[Poison]

19 likes, what a popular cronie

Also the figure is closer to 1 million (not 100,000)

 

[kkmix]

Second fb status is so true, makes you think who the real terrorist is in all this.

 

[Gotham Cronie]

19 likes, what a popular cronie

Also the figure is closer to 1 million (not 100,000)

I was trying to find a figure. The only one I could find was for Iraq. Afghanistan's had some listed for specific years but no total. Same with Pakistan.

Do you have a source for that 1 million?

 

[1137moiz]

Gothamcronie is not only keen of eye but wise of mind and popular of FB as well.

Well said old boy.

 

[Poison]

I was trying to find a figure. The only one I could find was for Iraq. Afghanistan's had some listed for specific years but no total. Same with Pakistan.

Do you have a source for that 1 million?

http://www.brussellstribunal.org/pdf/lancet111006.pdf

That's for Iraq alone. 100,000 civilian deaths in the first 18 months.

We estimate that as of July, 2006, there have been 654 965 (392 979–942 636) excess Iraqi deaths as a consequence of the war.

Those two figures in brackets indicate the lowest number on the civilian death spectrum(329,000, still a ridiculous figure), and the 942 636 indicates the POSSIBLE number of deaths of Iraqis alone due to the war. This study was published in 2006. Five years on, it is only natural to assume there has been WELL over 1,000,000 casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, with the vast majority (VAST majority) being in Iraq.

 

[Poison]

But yeah I guess it's just collateral damage! All worth it in the end hey!

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

 

[Gotham Cronie]

Wow, that's unbelievable.

Here is the source I found for the Iraqi civilians. They only counted the documented civilian deaths.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

 

[Khabri420]

GC, please also dedicate a status to the cost of wars since 2001 (iraq and afghan)

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.costofwar.com/costofwar-embed.js"></script>


<style type="text/css"> #costOfWarTotal { text-align: center; width: 270px; font-weight: bold; ** #costOfWarTotal_Total { font-size: 0.5em; font-weight: bold; color: #990000; ** #costOfWarTotal_Link { font-size: .5em; ** </style>


<div id="costOfWarTotal"> <script language="JavaScript"> initCostOfTotal(); updateCostOfTotal(100); </script></div>​

 

[Poison]

Documented deaths are always going to be less than the true number of deaths, simply because of the fact that deaths in war are never going to be documented accurately. I don't know for sure but I personally think the figure would be much closer to the minimum at least (329,000) rather than the (100,000) 'officially documented'.

 

[Kriketer]

Some people here are still in denial about this and believe it to be a conspiracy.

Funny how they are also the people who think 9/11 was an inside job by America among other belief in conspiracy theories

Trust me, if US says that horse sh!t is worth more than diamond, many people will believe that too.

US statements and conspiracies go hand in hand. The are never to be fully trusted.

 

[Radiance Of Australis]

That's clever )

 

[anand99]

No amount of evidence that the US provides will convince the conspiracy theorists. Are you kidding? There are people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job and the US knocked down the twin towers.

I believe we have already seen 3 or 4 fake osama pictures floating around the net. Whatever the US shows will be analyzed to death and proven by consipiracy theorists as fake. Infact, that is precisely the reason most people want the US to release the pictures so they can start trying to come up with reasons why it is fake.

Based on statements by some in the US administration it seems like they will infact release the pictures at some point, but I hope they don't. Infact, I hope they leave everyone who are desparate to hang on to any theories hanging forever cuz you know the day those pics are released there are going to be a bunch of people out there claiming how fake it is.

Bottom line, the US is claiming they killed him and you don't see any AL QAEDA websites showing any live videos of Bin Laden to prove he is still alive. If someone is going to step up to the plate and say the US is wrong then you prove it. How do you know he is alive? Back it up with evidence.

 

[kkmix]

No amount of evidence that the US provides will convince the conspiracy theorists. Are you kidding? There are people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job and the US knocked down the twin towers.

I believe we have already seen 3 or 4 fake osama pictures floating around the net. Whatever the US shows will be analyzed to death and proven by consipiracy theorists as fake. Infact, that is precisely the reason most people want the US to release the pictures so they can start trying to come up with reasons why it is fake.

Based on statements by some in the US administration it seems like they will infact release the pictures at some point, but I hope they don't. Infact, I hope they leave everyone who are desparate to hang on to any theories hanging forever cuz you know the day those pics are released there are going to be a bunch of people out there claiming how fake it is.

Bottom line, the US is claiming they killed him and you don't see any AL QAEDA websites showing any live videos of Bin Laden to prove he is still alive. If someone is going to step up to the plate and say the US is wrong then you prove it. How do you know he is alive? Back it up with evidence.

What are you talking about. TTP (Pakistani Talibans) have claimed that Osama is alive...and Al Qaeda claimed him dead long time ago...now I don't know who to believe, none of them have given me proofs. But I can understand why you would believe the holy Americans tho.

Watch this video and tell me what you think

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[anand99]

Actually, I saw that interview on TV and it showed me nothing. Just some random dude who thinks it cannot be bin laden.

 

[kkmix]

Yeah, you see now I can use the same theory against you who wouldn't change their perspective based on whatever proof you give them, they would deny it.

 

[GOAT]

Now that it's come about Bin Laden was unarmed, this raises some questions about whether this killing was an outright, illegal, extra-judicial execution. Of course these are the questions no one wants to ask.

 

[Gotham Cronie]

It was a conspiracy by NBC. Here's proof.

http://www.tvline.com/2011/05/did-chuck-get-off-the-best-shot-at-bin-laden/

 

[PerfectionPersonified]

Now that it's come about Bin Laden was unarmed, this raises some questions about whether this killing was an outright, illegal, extra-judicial execution. Of course these are the questions no one wants to ask.

I am just waiting for Obama party to say

"Everything is Fair in Wars"

 

[PakPrince]

What are you talking about. TTP (Pakistani Talibans) have claimed that Osama is alive...and Al Qaeda claimed him dead long time ago...now I don't know who to believe, none of them have given me proofs. But I can understand why you would believe the holy Americans tho.

Watch this video and tell me what you think

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lW7OywJlT8o?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lW7OywJlT8o?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Actually TTP have accepted that he has died.. nd have vowed to take revenge.

And Bin Laden's sons and one wife have admitted that he was killed in front of them.

And Bin Laden's daughter has also issued a statement saying that he is dead.

Not enough yet?

 

[kkmix]

Actually TTP have accepted that he has died.. nd have vowed to take revenge.

And Bin Laden's sons and one wife have admitted that he was killed in front of them.

And Bin Laden's daughter has also issued a statement saying that he is dead.

Not enough yet?

their statements came after US announced him dead 2 days ago?

 

[anand99]

I am glad he was shot dead. Much better than dealing with the circus that would have been his trial if he were brought to the US. KSM's trial has already become a joke here. Perfectly fine with me that he was dumped in the ocean too. Good riddance.

 

[PerfectionPersonified]

Question

Where are all the other people captured?

 

[anand99]

Question

Where are all the other people captured?

Taken to Gitmo?

 

[PakPrince]

their statements came after US announced him dead 2 days ago?

ofcourse..
the wife and the son is now under Pakistan custody
The daughter was in the Arabworld..

now dont say theyre part of the conspiracy too

 

[kkmix]

ofcourse..
the wife and the son is now under Pakistan custody
The daughter was in the Arabworld..

now dont say theyre part of the conspiracy too

please find me this news, thanks.

 

[PerfectionPersonified]

ofcourse..
the wife and the son is now under Pakistan custody
The daughter was in the Arabworld..

now dont say theyre part of the conspiracy too

Source apart from US?

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

What about Elvis?

Is he dead or not?

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

please find me this news, thanks.

Try reading some newspapers.

 

[kkmix]

Try reading some newspapers.

I do, I haven't come across such news, perhaps you could help me find this article from a trusted source.

 

[AZ]

who cares, as long as they GTFO of Pakistan.

 

[shaykh1985]

I apologise if this has been posted already...Pakistan still trying to look as incompetent as possible...

Death of Osama bin Ladin-Respect for Pakistan’s Established Policy Parameters on Counter Terrorism

The Government of Pakistan recognizes that the death of Osama bin Ladin is an important milestone in fight against terrorism and that the Government of Pakistan and its state institutions have been making serious efforts to bring him to justice.

However, the Government of Pakistan categorically denies the media reports suggesting that its leadership, civil as well as military, had any prior knowledge of the US operation against Osama bin Ladin carried out in the early hours of 2nd May 2011.

Abbottabad and the surrounding areas have been under sharp focus of intelligence agencies since 2003 resulting in highly technical operation by ISI which led to the arrest of high value Al Qaeda target in 2004. As far as the target compound is concerned, ISI had been sharing information with CIA and other friendly intelligence agencies since 2009. The intelligence flow indicating some foreigners in the surroundings of Abbottabad, continued till mid April 2011. It is important to highlight that taking advantage of much superior technological assets, CIA exploited the intelligence leads given by us to identify and reach Osama bin Ladin, a fact also acknowledged by the US President and Secretary of State, in their statements. It is also important to mention that CIA and some other friendly intelligence agencies have benefitted a great deal from the intelligence provided by ISI. ISI’s own achievements against Al Qaeda and in War on Terror are more than any other intelligence agency in the World.

Reports about US helicopters taking off from Ghazi Airbase are absolutely false and incorrect. Neither any base or facility inside Pakistan was used by the US Forces, nor Pakistan Army provided any operational or logistic assistance to these operations conducted by the US Forces. US helicopters entered Pakistani airspace making use of blind spots in the radar coverage due to hilly terrain. US helicopters’ undetected flight into Pakistan was also facilitated by the mountainous terrain, efficacious use of latest technology and ‘nap of the earth’ flying techniques. It may not be realistic to draw an analogy between this undefended civilian area and some military / security installations which have elaborate local defence arrangements.

On receipt of information regarding the incident, PAF scrambled its jets within minutes. This has been corroborated by the White House Advisor Mr John Brennan who while replying to a question said, “We didn’t contact the Pakistanis until after all of our people, all of our aircraft were out of Pakistani airspace. At the time, the Pakistanis were reacting to an incident that they knew was taking place in Abbottabad. Therefore, they were scrambling some of their assets. Clearly, we were concerned that if the Pakistanis decided to scramble jets or whatever else, they didn’t know who were on those jets. They had no idea about who might have been on there, whether it be US or somebody else. So, we were watching and making sure that our people and our aircraft were able to get out of Pakistani airspace. And thankfully, there was no engagement with Pakistani forces. This operation was designed to minimize the prospects, the chances of engagement with Pakistani forces. It was done very well, and thankfully no Pakistani forces were engaged and there were no other individuals who were killed aside from those on the compound.”

There has been a lot of discussion about the nature of the targeted compound, particularly its high walls and its vicinity to the areas housing Pakistan Army elements. It needs to be appreciated that many houses occupied by the affectees of operations in FATA / KPK, have high boundary walls, in line with their culture of privacy and security. Houses with such layout and structural details are not a rarity.

Questions have also been asked about the whereabouts of the family members of Osama bin Ladin. They are all in safe hands and being looked after in accordance with law. Some of them needing medical care are under treatment in the best possible facilities. As per policy, they will be handed over to their countries of origin.

Notwithstanding the above, the Government of Pakistan expresses its deep concerns and reservations on the manner in which the Government of the United States carried out this operation without prior information or authorization from the Government of Pakistan.

This event of unauthorized unilateral action cannot be taken as a rule. The Government of Pakistan further affirms that such an event shall not serve as a future precedent for any state, including the US. Such actions undermine cooperation and may also sometime constitute threat to international peace and security.

Pakistan, being mindful of its international obligations, has been extending full and proper cooperation on all counter terrorism efforts including exchange of information and intelligence. Pursuant to such cooperation, Pakistan had arrested several high profile terrorists.

The Government of Pakistan and its Armed Forces consider support of the people of Pakistan to be its mainstay and actual strength. Any actions contrary to their aspirations, therefore, run against the very basis on which the edifice of national defence and security is based. Pakistan Army and intelligence agencies have played a pivotal role in breaking the back of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations in Pakistan as well as around the World. Most of the successes achieved by the US and some other friendly countries have been the result of effective intelligence cooperation and extremely useful military support by Pakistan. The Government of Pakistan and its security forces have resolved to continue their fight against terrorism till people of Pakistan can live in peace and security.



Islamabad
03 May 2011

And just for kicks...CIA Director Leon Panetta told Time Magazine that Islamabad had not been informed because "the Pakistanis could jeopardise the mission: they might alert the targets".

Pakistan really being shafted here...

 

[jzdanish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb3dmzKd6fQ&feature=player_embedded#at=20

A true hero.

 

[kkmix]

What I don't get is that the Helicopter crashed in Abbottabad but no American troop killed? Is that possible?

 

[AZ]

^ apparently they had enough time to evacuate the dead/injured.

 

[Garuda]

What I don't get is that the Helicopter crashed in Abbottabad but no American troop killed? Is that possible?

yup. Recenly a helicopter crashed in India also (with one politician and few of his men). No one got killed.

Even Vijay mallaya has survided a helicopter crash himself.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...ore/27211962_1_chopper-crash-helicopter-pilot

 

[jzdanish]

zaid hamid forever!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb3dmzKd6fQ&feature=player_embedded#at=20

just listen, admire and understand his warning!! amazing!

 

[ace4rmspace]

Spot fixing trio were framed
India won the world cup which was fixed
9/11 is an inside job
Osama death was staged.

Of course they were.

*straightens his tin foil hat*

 

[violet_may]

LOLLL too funny!! Where do you find these things?

 

[violet_may]

zaid hamid forever!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb3dmzKd6fQ&feature=player_embedded#at=20

just listen, admire and understand his warning!! amazing!

he seems a little

 

[pinger]

What I don't get is that the Helicopter crashed in Abbottabad but no American troop killed? Is that possible?

The helicpter had a hydraulic failure apparently. They aborted the rapelling of the special forces, and touched down to unload them. When it became clear the copter would not be able to fly out the standard Operating procedure is to destroy it, probably via grenade.

 

[dinakar]

zaid hamid forever!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb3dmzKd6fQ&feature=player_embedded#at=20

just listen, admire and understand his warning!! amazing!

funny indeed!! I think we were missing this chap for quite sometimes

 

[kkmix]

The helicpter had a hydraulic failure apparently. They aborted the rapelling of the special forces, and touched down to unload them. When it became clear the copter would not be able to fly out the standard Operating procedure is to destroy it, probably via grenade.

or maybe it was simply shot down?

 

[Garuda]

funny indeed!! I think we were missing this chap for quite sometimes

yah he is funny indeed. Yesterday, I was hearing him in a clip.

He was hell bent on Obama lied cuz there is a helicopter crashed. So there must be casuality and hence Obama lied.

I mean there are more important things happened than taking this as a big argument is just stupid and funny.

 

[Garuda]

or maybe it was simply shot down?

Who shot it? And why allowed rest 3 to finish their work and go ?

There are lot of eye witnesses (locals and neighbours around). No one said that it was shot.

 

[kkmix]

Some eye witnesses/neighbors also said that there was no Osama there.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Some eye witnesses/neighbors also said that there was no Osama there.

Do you think Osama would be hanging out a the local pan wala?

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

There are inconsistencies with the story in general though and who knows if we'll ever know the full truth.

For instance, it was stated initially that Osama was armed and fought back. It turns out he was unarmed.

They also said a female was used as a human shield, but later they changed that as well.

At the end of the day though, it does't make a lot of sense for Pak to deny assistance in the operation, because there is right now a heap of pressure being placed on Pakistan.

As Imran reasons, this can only lead to more death and destruction in the future. If Pak accepted credit, there wouldn't be pressure to go into N. Wasiristan like there is now.

Going into Waziristan would result in a much more terrible backlash than any acknowledgement that Pak directly assisted in bin Laden's assassination.

Any who doubt otherwise need to get acquainted with reality.

The Taliban in both Pak and Afghanistan are not fighting for bin Laden...he had become a marginal character, a sideshow.

 

[Abdullah22]

Did they release any picture evidence yet?

 

[Garuda]

Some eye witnesses/neighbors also said that there was no Osama there.

They said they even donno who was staying there. They knew nothing forget about Osama.

I heard one old guy saying that, his son used to buy stuff for them and for that also they never allowed him inside. So locals had no clue to know and no one can blame them either.

But these kind of activities should have raised doubts. Surprised why no one ever tried to know.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

They said they even donno who was staying there. They knew nothing forget about Osama.

I heard one old guy saying that, his son used to buy stuff for them and for that also they never allowed him inside. So locals had no clue to know and no one can blame them either.

But these kind of activities should have raised doubts. Surprised why no one ever tried to know.

It's hard to comprehend this whole thing.

If Pak did know, and did assist, why is there all this pressure on Pak now from the Obama admin and from Congress?

If Pak did know, and kept it secret, they are now facing the consequences.

If Pak did not know, they are possibly incompetent.

In any of the cases, Pak appears to be handling it very badly and turn out looking incompetent anyway. For instance, if they imagined they could keep it secret and protect Osama forever, that in itself is incompetency.

 

[Abdullah22]

Actually TTP have accepted that he has died.. nd have vowed to take revenge.

And Bin Laden's sons and one wife have admitted that he was killed in front of them.

And Bin Laden's daughter has also issued a statement saying that he is dead.

Not enough yet?

TTP is a joke with all certainty.

This is what the 'real' Taliban have to say regarding the latest media hype:

From one point of view, the Americans did not present sufficient evidence to prove their claim, and from the other point of view, the sources close to Sheikh Usama bin Laden have not announced their position - confirming or denying - what Obama announced about the above-mentioned martyrdom, and therefore, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan considers discussion about the subject, before the release of an official statement from sources close to the Sheikh, premature.

The Spokesman of Islamic Emirate
Zabihullah Mujahid
03/05/2011

Anyway according to some 'sources' this is the new image that might be released next:
http://a1.img.mobypicture.com/c91ae0bf937e690e121be6eb7d61846b_new_medium.jpg

 

[nish_mate]

Assuming the secret services were sheltering Osama, I still cant understand their motives behind sheltering him. What was their angle for hiding him?

Guess we all will know in the coming days if the Pak secret services were involved or not. If Obama starts pressurising India on the Kashmir issue and brings it up on the Intl. level-then we could believe that this is the payoff for the Osama raid.

Interesting days ahead...

 

[Garuda]

It's hard to comprehend this whole thing.

If Pak did know, and did assist, why is there all this pressure on Pak now from the Obama admin and from Congress?

If Pak did know, and kept it secret, they are now facing the consequences.

If Pak did not know, they are possibly incompetent.

In any of the cases, Pak appears to be handling it very badly and turn out looking incompetent anyway. For instance, if they imagined they could keep it secret and protect Osama forever, that in itself is incompetency.

Yah, its bad from Pakistan's point of view. In the situation they are, doesn't look like they agreed to it knowingly.

When I heard the news first that Osama was killed so close to Army establishment and Pak Army knew nothing, my first post was its a lose-lose situation for Pakistan. Hence, its difficult to think that Pakistan authorities couldn't see the after effect.(if they did it knowingly)

But its still very muddy and lot of unanswered questions. Atleast the people of Pakistan has the right to know the answer from their Govt/Army.

 

[upper_Cut]

Shame for does who support this guy and calls him shaheed

he was such a bad person even the earth didnt want him poor sea

 

[shzad1]

Osama is not died yet.

Read it Osama Bin Laden Death True or Fake? Evidence & Proofs and http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?p=3777245

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Shame for does who support this guy and calls him shaheed

he was such a bad person even the earth didnt want him poor sea

Only 18% of Pakistanis in 2010 viewed Al Qaeda favourably.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

It's hard to comprehend this whole thing.

If Pak did know, and did assist, why is there all this pressure on Pak now from the Obama admin and from Congress?

If Pak did know, and kept it secret, they are now facing the consequences.

If Pak did not know, they are possibly incompetent.

In any of the cases, Pak appears to be handling it very badly and turn out looking incompetent anyway. For instance, if they imagined they could keep it secret and protect Osama forever, that in itself is incompetency.

Hi Blistering Barnacle,

You have summed up the situation well.

In my view, it is difficult to comprehend that Pakistani Government knew about the hideout of Osama or even top establishment of ISI/Army. Keeping Osama at arm's length from military academy would jeopardize, whatever motives the government/army may have to keep Osama alive.

I assume, some elements of army/intelligence may have actively collaborated with Osama with regards to the hideout for either money or may have been influenced/inspired by his acts. Without, support from some of the members of Army/Intelligence (may be middle level staff), it is highly unlikely, Osama on his own to take a decision to reside in such a sensitive location.

Now, in order to identify how his hideout actually came into being, the government needs to find answers for few of the questions :

1. When the construction of the building started/ended. Under whose name the property is registered. Whether, that person has filed tax documents (to verify his mode of income).

2. If it was in defence area, then were prior permissions from army/intelligence agencies were sought etc.

Whatever was the matter, Pakistani Government owes its people a truthful explanation of the issue.

 

[Garuda]

Only 18% of Pakistanis in 2010 viewed Al Qaeda favourably.

That's still not a small number yaar. We are talking abot around 35 million ppl.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Hi Blistering Barnacle,

You have summed up the situation well.

In my view, it is difficult to comprehend that Pakistani Government knew about the hideout of Osama or even top establishment of ISI/Army. Keeping Osama at arm's length from military academy would jeopardize, whatever motives the government/army may have to keep Osama alive.

I assume, some elements of army/intelligence may have actively collaborated with Osama with regards to the hideout for either money or may have been influenced/inspired by his acts. Without, support from some of the members of Army/Intelligence (may be middle level staff), it is highly unlikely, Osama on his own to take a decision to reside in such a sensitive location.

Now, in order to identify how his hideout actually came into being, the government needs to find answers for few of the questions :

1. When the construction of the building started/ended. Under whose name the property is registered. Whether, that person has filed tax documents (to verify his mode of income).

2. If it was in defence area, then were prior permissions from army/intelligence agencies were sought etc.

Whatever was the matter, Pakistani Government owes its people a truthful explanation of the issue.

There have been mixed messages from ISI officials (speaking anonymously).

Some have said that they raided that compound when it was first constructed and found nothing and subsequently dismissed it.

Some have said they located the courier that was used to track bin Laden.

Some has said it was a "joint operation" (which most other officials have dismissed, including US officials and Pak's president).

Some have said that they look like "idiots" and "fools" for not knowing he was right there.

Who knows. Pak is such a divided country, run by so many organizations/interests. The elected Pak govt is only one of these.

 

[PerfectionPersonified]

That's still not a small number yaar. We are talking abot around 35 million ppl.

doubt that its about 10-15 thousand in total

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

That's still not a small number yaar. We are talking abot around 35 million ppl.

that is like 1.8 people out of 10, including uneducated people and extremists. In addition, a lot of those people would be agreeing with Al Qaeda's stances on US intervention in muslim countries which is fair enough. The US IS a meddler and have caused the deaths of millions through their intervention.

It's a lot of people in a large country number-wise, but a small proportion nonetheless. Look at how well religious parties have done in elections - not well at all.

But for instance, look at how many people in the US believed their own president was not an American citizen. Something like 30%, which would mean 100 million people.

 

[Garuda]

One local guy who was being interviewed yesterday, said that the security in that area is too good. They were asked to show ID and which house they stay while coming back in the evening.

So, its surprising that no one knew about this in such a secure area.

 

[upper_Cut]

Only 18% of Pakistanis in 2010 viewed Al Qaeda favourably.

well yeh but some ppl in this thread are so sad that he died
and also Pakistan was the only country where ppl remembered him publicly

 

[Garuda]

that is like 1.8 people out of 10, including uneducated people and extremists. In addition, a lot of those people would be agreeing with Al Qaeda's stances on US intervention in muslim countries which is fair enough. The US IS a meddler and have caused the deaths of millions through their intervention.

It's a lot of people in a large country number-wise, but a small proportion nonetheless. Look at how well religious parties have done in elections - not well at all.

But for instance, look at how many people in the US believed their own president was not an American citizen. Something like 30%, which would mean 100 million people.

See election is a different thing.

Its still okay to have 35 million people who agree with Osama and are against USA. Having a view is still fine.

But if only 10% of that start to take some action, then it will be bad for Pakistan. Even 5% can be difficult to handle when most of them are uneducated and can be easily brainwashed.

So, its no way good for Pakistan in general.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

See election is a different thing.

Its still okay to have 35 million people who agree with Osama and are against USA. Having a view is still fine.

But if only 10% of that start to take some action, then it will be bad for Pakistan. Even 5% can be difficult to handle when most of them are uneducated and can be easily brainwashed.

So, its no way good for Pakistan in general.

You are missing the big picture, which is a severe decline in support of any kind for bin Laden across the muslim world.

The backlash for Pakistan by acknowledging assistance in this operation is nothing compared to the backlash they will face from going into N. Waziristan and cracking down harder on other militant/terrorist groups as a result of international pressure.

Therefore the idea that Pak was an active partner in this but didn't acknowledge it doesn't make too much sense to me.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

well yeh but some ppl in this thread are so sad that he died
and also Pakistan was the only country where ppl remembered him publicly

They don't support his terrorist actions. They support what bin Laden said about American intervention, which by the way was true.

 

[Garuda]

You are missing the big picture, which is a severe decline in support of any kind for bin Laden across the muslim world.

The backlash for Pakistan by acknowledging assistance in this operation is nothing compared to the backlash they will face from going into N. Waziristan and cracking down harder on other militant/terrorist groups as a result of international pressure.

Therefore the idea that Pak was an active partner in this but didn't acknowledge it doesn't make too much sense to me.

I don't think I disagree to any of your points in this post.

my earlier post was just to show my feeling that 18% support is still worrying.

 

[upper_Cut]

They don't support his terrorist actions. They support what bin Laden said about American intervention, which by the way was true.

I live in the same country sure they do support his actions otherwise they just went on streets and demand from US government an apology.
Mass media is calling him shaheed so .............................

 

[ace4rmspace]

I live in the same country sure they do support his actions otherwise they just went on streets and demand from US government an apology.
Mass media is calling him shaheed so .............................

I'm not suprised which is heart breaking.

 

[shortbread]

I wouldnt be suprised if US have previously carried out covert operations well inside Pakistan with soldiers on the ground. The Army and ISI wouldnt have even known and even if they did, they're least bothered as long as things are kept hush and their pay cheques keep coming.

This time however the target was of the highest profile and the impending elections means the US govt. decided to shout from the roof and the Army/ISI have been caught napping red handed. Two days after this national humiliation they come out with a statement which has made the whole world laugh.

What worries these 'leaders & generals' is not that the nations sovereignty was easily breached, the worlds most wanted man has been living as a neighbour or that foreigners can come in as they please and kill people, the only thing that worries them is that they have been caught and the time it will take for this to die down.

The humiliation will instead be faced by every Pakistani especially ones abroad who will have to hang their heads in shame each time this is discussed in the office or social gatherings. All one can do is to bear and share this disgust and frustration.

 

[Garuda]

The humiliation will instead be faced by every Pakistani especially ones abroad who will have to hang their heads in shame each time this is discussed in the office or social gatherings. All one can do is to bear and share this disgust and frustration.

That's true. I already experienced that yesterday whe I was walking to my office with a british guy after lunch.

Out of this discussion, he said, now its difficult to trust these guys (mentioning an Indian muslim guy who works for us as a contractor on a short term) as you never know what he is up to.

I donno whom to blame but its affecting a lot of ppl.

 

[ace4rmspace]

Will Osama's death change ANYTHING with regards to terrorism around the world? I don't think so. In trying to find this non-functional symbolic figure, the powers to be have managed to p!ss off many many more. For these people, unlike Osama, it's personal. They have deaths to avenge, paybacks to mete out and destroyed futures to be compensated for.

Who or what was Osama anyway? What did he mean in the larger scope of things? So he allegedly organised the whole 9/11 saga and what went on in Africa. I've never heard anyone accuse him of pulling the trigger or flicking a switch himself. All he was doing was allegedly saying "It's a go". I think I've heard that phrase being used elswhere pretty recently.

I am by no means condoning what he did or what he caused. He didn't bring an iota of benefit to the people he claimed to be fighting for, quite on the contrary. His words and ideologies brought death and destruction to thousands and destroyed the future of many more. The same can be said for the other side too. It's funny that everyone involved is looking for "Justice" which, in it's purest form, is as universal as a concept can be. We have all just seen how that word has been crapped on by all. Shameful times for humanity.

 

[GOAT]

Will Osama's death change ANYTHING with regards to terrorism around the world? I don't think so. In trying to find this non-functional symbolic figure, the powers to be have managed to p!ss off many many more. For these people, unlike Osama, it's personal. They have deaths to avenge, paybacks to mete out and destroyed futures to be compensated for.

Who or what was Osama anyway? What did he mean in the larger scope of things? So he allegedly organised the whole 9/11 saga and what went on in Africa. I've never heard anyone accuse him of pulling the trigger or flicking a switch himself. All he was doing was allegedly saying "It's a go". I think I've heard that phrase being used elswhere pretty recently.

I am by no means condoning what he did or what he caused. He didn't bring an iota of benefit to the people he claimed to be fighting for, quite on the contrary. His words and ideologies brought death and destruction to thousands and destroyed the future of many more. The same can be said for the other side too. It's funny that everyone involved is looking for "Justice" which, in it's purest form, is as universal as a concept can be. We have all just seen how that word has been crapped on by all. Shameful times for humanity.

This post makes... too much sense.

 

[Animal]

No amount of evidence that the US provides will convince the conspiracy theorists. Are you kidding? There are people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job and the US knocked down the twin towers.

Off topic, but I am one of those who believe they let the attacks happen on purpose. And you are going to have to do better than a cute smiley to prove I am a "conspiracy theorist."

 

[cricketfanfirst]

Will Osama's death change ANYTHING with regards to terrorism around the world? I don't think so. In trying to find this non-functional symbolic figure, the powers to be have managed to p!ss off many many more. For these people, unlike Osama, it's personal. They have deaths to avenge, paybacks to mete out and destroyed futures to be compensated for.

Who or what was Osama anyway? What did he mean in the larger scope of things? So he allegedly organised the whole 9/11 saga and what went on in Africa. I've never heard anyone accuse him of pulling the trigger or flicking a switch himself. All he was doing was allegedly saying "It's a go". I think I've heard that phrase being used elswhere pretty recently.

I am by no means condoning what he did or what he caused. He didn't bring an iota of benefit to the people he claimed to be fighting for, quite on the contrary. His words and ideologies brought death and destruction to thousands and destroyed the future of many more. The same can be said for the other side too. It's funny that everyone involved is looking for "Justice" which, in it's purest form, is as universal as a concept can be. We have all just seen how that word has been crapped on by all. Shameful times for humanity.

Hi ace4rmspace,

Very thoughtful post.

In International politics, most countries will look at their self-interests and in doing so, would not mind transgressing justice/fair values.

We have to ask ourselves some of the questions, that even after so many decades, why a big chunk of our population is not able to afford quality education that can sustain them with honourable jobs? why we are not able to provide sufficient employment opportunities? why are we lagging in scientific advancements (has any of us won Nobel prize in physics/chemistry/medicine)? why are we relying on foreign powers for our defence requirements? why our best talent is going abroad? why most of our people would rather settle for greener pastures abroad but not at home? why our supposedly premier educational institutes not able to come up with worthwhile discoveries like MIT, Cambridge or Stanford?

People of sub-continent, need to look at themselves and come with solutions, just blaming other nations(in some cases which rightly have to) itself, would not serve any solution.

I have raised this earlier and would again now:

1. How Japan, Germany rose to the top after being in ruins after the second world war?

They must have done something right, which is strengthening their educational systems, infrastructure, judicial systems and general governance. The development in these nations did not happen with a magic wand but through people's co-operation.

Just take a look at some of the pictures and reports on how people of Japan coped with tsunami and earthquake disasters which struck recently. There would have been full scale pandemonium at our places, if that occurred. They maintained queues while making calls during that situation, wherein we cannot maintain a simple queue while stepping into a bus at happier and normal times. These skills have to be acquired, which would be inculcated if we have proper education and upbringing.

Only through proper education of the masses, strict implementation of constitutional laws for prohibiting corruption, democracy, transparency in administration, eliminating radical/militant/extremist elements from the society, we can dream of achieving inclusive social justice, otherwise ONLY few people at the top will be served and majority will be crushed under the burden of difficulties.

We need to come out of our shells and stop blaming outside forces for our misery. Just blaming will not serve any purpose but us doing the action.

Not sure, but still hope, I would live to see, sub-continent nations regarded as developed and advanced countries and no longer mentioned as third-world countries, who rely on foreign aid for survival.

Thanks.

 

[Markhor]

The official explanations are not plausible, are humiliating and downright patronising...

Pakistan claims they didnt know where Osama was...makes a mockery of the ISI who couldn't find a guy living in a $1m house 10 minutes away from a military establishment...

Pakistan claims they had no knowledge of the op...this makes a mockery of Pakistan's security apparatus who couldn't spot helicopters entering the country, crashing along with a 40 minute firefight and murder...

If were are to believe the above nonsense is true then why is the issue not violation of sovereignty...from both sides...why is Pakistan not up in arms about being kept in the dark...and from the US perspective why are they not being questioned over violating a nations sovereignty...based on their explanations very dangerous precedents have been set...

I read somewhere that Pakistan believed that it was an accomplice of Umar Patek related to the Bali Bombing of 2002,not Osama Bin Laden.So they gave the go-ahead.