Pakistan's medium pacers are better than their express bowlers

[Sher Khan]

This series has been a huge contrast to the 2019 series. Back in 2019, we brought our 150 kph fast bowlers like Naseem and Musa. Both got smashed badly.

This time around our "medium Pacers" are here and have been made fun of a lot and copped criticism for their low pace.

Even Shaheen is effectively bowling medium pace and has definitely looked threatening but luck has deserted him.

The other seamers throughout the series have looked far more in control and threatening than our fast bowlers so what does that say?

Have we been too obsessed with high pace and as a result our results have suffered.

 

[Buffet]

Not commenting on pacers vs Medium pacers, but conditions are not the same.

 

[ahmadharis1]

I would gladly take a 130kph pacer who puts it in the test match line and length consistently over a 150kph spray gun.

 

[Farabi]

This series has been a huge contrast to the 2019 series. Back in 2019, we brought our 150 kph fast bowlers like Naseem and Musa. Both got smashed badly.

This time around our "medium Pacers" are here and have been made fun of a lot and copped criticism for their low pace.

Even Shaheen is effectively bowling medium pace and has definitely looked threatening but luck has deserted him.

The other seamers throughout the series have looked far more in control and threatening than our fast bowlers so what does that say?

Have we been too obsessed with high pace and as a result our results have suffered.

Pace is a fetish now in Pakistan.

Pace is a bonus but you can be a world class test pacer operating sub 130.

 

[Asad T]

Who needs pace, when you can move it like that

 

[emranabbas]

Pace is only effective if your bowling line and length otherwise your a harris rauf type of bowler

 

[Suleiman]

This is a massive myth that was perpetrated just because of the advent of Shoaib Akhtar.

The main strength of Pakistani pacers from the 60s onwards was always movement in the air. Even Asif and Amir pre ban were lethal with the moving ball.

The only bowler who relied purely on pace is Shoaib Akhtar. M Zahid too but got injured very early on.

It was never about pure speed.

We are significantly slower now, but if you are disciplined and bowl tight lines it doesn’t matter

 

[BouncerGuy]

Line and length can do more than just speed and speed. Consistency is the key to success especially in red ball format.

 

[Asad T]

Pace is waste:

 

[PakPremi]

This is what I commented in the other thread Pakistani medium pacers have certainly outperformed pace bowlers in Australia compare to the last two two or three tours there.Shame the catches cost them big in both test matches.

 

[MenInG]

Who are the express pacers in red-ball cricket?

 

[PakPremi]

If Khurum Shezad was also available in this match ihe would had bowled even better than he did in first match. Also Mir Hamza would had been better than Faheem in the first match.

 

[RidiculousMan]

This series has been a huge contrast to the 2019 series. Back in 2019, we brought our 150 kph fast bowlers like Naseem and Musa. Both got smashed badly.

This time around our "medium Pacers" are here and have been made fun of a lot and copped criticism for their low pace.

Even Shaheen is effectively bowling medium pace and has definitely looked threatening but luck has deserted him.

The other seamers throughout the series have looked far more in control and threatening than our fast bowlers so what does that say?

Have we been too obsessed with high pace and as a result our results have suffered.

I think more than that it's a simple picture. It really is a simple picture.

Your skill, form and experience matters as a bowler more than anything else in general in Test Cricket. Shahzad, Jamal and Mir all domestic top performers, in form and Mir with plenty of experience.

These players obviously were going to outperform the likes of 16 Yo Naseem and 19 Yo Musa.

 

[Abid Z]

Makes you wonder what on earth was Faheem doing in the lineup in Perth ahead of Mir hamza. Hamza has been improving every minute he’s out there while faheem was always a waste of space. (Batting or bowling )

 

[ElRaja]

pak bowlers have bowled great today but this post is pure recency bias, your playing at an overcast mcg, the majority of pakistans test matches will be in sunny pindi, lahore or karachi.

80 mph swing bowling will do nothing against top quality batsmen if the conditions dont assist for swing. you dont need 4 swing bowlers in ur xi, but you need at least one express quick, otherwise a team like england, with a plethora of swing bowlers, would not be so heavily invested in mark wood.

 

[topspin]

Conditions aren’t the same. This test at the MCG is more akin to a test played in England.

In typical Australian conditions, you need pace or somehow be able to take the pitch out of the equation.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'm not a contributor to Pakistan cricket threads much these days, but I've often expressed the opinion that while pace is wonderful, the first requirement for a seam bowler has to be control of line and length, and the ability to swing/seam the ball both ways.

I'm not a professional cricketer so I just don't understand why Pakistan's specialised coaches and selectors don't see this. A coach at school level in England would know the value of basic skills over speed with no control.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Actually Medium Pace bowling is an art. Medium pacer needs a lot of skill and control. It's tougher than fast bowling because the bowler has to rely more on accuracy, changes in pace, and movement. They need to trick the batsman with variations, making it harder to predict the ball's behavior.

Currently, Mir Hamza is the best medium pacer we have in our squad. Guys, just look at his delivery to Travis Head. You will forget everything. That delivery was just like a song

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

pak bowlers have bowled great today but this post is pure recency bias, your playing at an overcast mcg, the majority of pakistans test matches will be in sunny pindi, lahore or karachi.

80 mph swing bowling will do nothing against top quality batsmen if the conditions dont assist for swing. you dont need 4 swing bowlers in ur xi, but you need at least one express quick, otherwise a team like england, with a plethora of swing bowlers, would not be so heavily invested in mark wood.

All true enough, but then use medium pacers in conditions which are favourable. Was there really never pitches which were suitable for swing and seam until the MCG today? Is that why Mir Hamza couldn't get selected for years, we were just waiting for the exact right pitch and conditions?

 

[ElRaja]

All true enough, but then use medium pacers in conditions which are favourable. Was there really never pitches which were suitable for swing and seam until the MCG today? Is that why Mir Hamza couldn't get selected for years, we were just waiting for the exact right pitch and conditions?

mir hamza has played 3 tests in "home" conditions and picked up 260/2. hardly the kinda numbers to force consistent selection, but hes taken his chance here.

pak cant chop and change for conditions since we only play like 6 tests a year, it would mean some bowlers playing 2 or 3 tests a year, and theres no way you can develop a bowler for test matches like that.

hamza wasn't selected for the conditions, he was just next in line, and happened to find conditions which suited him.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

mir hamza has played 3 tests in "home" conditions and picked up 260/2. hardly the kinda numbers to force consistent selection, but hes taken his chance here.

pak cant chop and change for conditions since we only play like 6 tests a year, it would mean some bowlers playing 2 or 3 tests a year, and theres no way you can develop a bowler for test matches like that.

hamza wasn't selected for the conditions, he was just next in line, and happened to find conditions which suited him.

I'm not saying Hamza is the answer, just probably worth considering when conditions do suit swing or seam over pace bowlers who can't either hit the seam or even contain runs because they have poor control of line and length.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Just to reiterate that point about control and nous being more important than scattergun pace, look at Tim Southee. He barely bowls at medium pace these days, but he's still a valued member of the NZ attack despite being past his best years. He knows how and where to pitch it as opposed to many of our pace bowlers who steam in bowling reverse swing action with a new ball.

 

[Abid Z]

pak bowlers have bowled great today but this post is pure recency bias, your playing at an overcast mcg, the majority of pakistans test matches will be in sunny pindi, lahore or karachi.

80 mph swing bowling will do nothing against top quality batsmen if the conditions dont assist for swing. you dont need 4 swing bowlers in ur xi, but you need at least one express quick, otherwise a team like england, with a plethora of swing bowlers, would not be so heavily invested in mark wood.

Mark wood is not exactly the spearhead of the English attack and misses as much as he plays. The main attack bowlers like Anderson and broad are used in subcontinent and do ok. There aren’t that many express bowlers in world test cricket.

Yes it’s a luxury but it’s asking a hell of a lot from an express bowler to bowl around 20 overs a day on dust bowls in a three match test series. They breakdown. Just look at shohaib and zahid. Best that we can hope for is to get medium pacers bowling tight lines and length and have a couple of decent spinners.

Just think how effective medium pacers like chaminda vaas or Asif have been in subcontinent. There’s no shame in being a medium pacer.

 

[ElRaja]

Mark wood is not exactly the spearhead of the English attack and misses as much as he plays. The main attack bowlers like Anderson and broad are used in subcontinent and do ok. There aren’t that many express bowlers in world test cricket.

Yes it’s a luxury but it’s asking a hell of a lot from an express bowler to bowl around 20 overs a day on dust bowls in a three match test series. They breakdown. Just look at shohaib and zahid. Best that we can hope for is to get medium pacers bowling tight lines and length and have a couple of decent spinners.

Just think how effective medium pacers like chaminda vaas or Asif have been in subcontinent. There’s no shame in being a medium pacer.

you cant lump the whole subcontinent together, modern Pakistani pitches are complete roads, unless you can reverse at pace you will be destroyed, like pak were against England. broad uses his height, and Anderson is a goat swing bowler, pak will never ever play enough tests to develop a bowler to that skill level.

my point isnt that you have one spearhead, its that you need different types of bowlers, and bowling at 80 trying to float it up to swing will get you destroyed in Pakistan. naseem has control and decent pace, shaheen has height, these two will be the core of our bowling line up if they stay fit.

who you put around them should be condition dependent, but line and length style medium pacers will leave you short changed more often than not in pak conditions.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

A horses for courses selection is the way forward for Pakistan's seamers as there's no consistency in their performances.

Here on the MCG wicket where majority of the lead up to the test was disrupted because of the weather, hence alot of assistance, which brings in medium pace line and length seamers.

However, on s flat track, this kind of pace will be cannon fodder, so this is where the horses for courses selection comes in to it

 

[gibsyhesperis]

Conditions aren’t the same. This test at the MCG is more akin to a test played in England.

In typical Australian conditions, you need pace or somehow be able to take the pitch out of the equation.

I think Glenn McGrath may disagree with you…

 

[Bewal Express]

A lot depends on wickets- if you put these guys bowling at 80mph on a flat one, they would look awful. Both the wickets here and Perth have been very bowler friendly and the ball has swung here. Just imagine Hamza, HA and Jamal against Eng on those flat track last year

 

[Bewal Express]

A horses for courses selection is the way forward for Pakistan's seamers as there's no consistency in their performances.

Here on the MCG wicket where majority of the lead up to the test was disrupted because of the weather, hence alot of assistance, which brings in medium pace line and length seamers.

However, on s flat track, this kind of pace will be cannon fodder, so this is where the horses for courses selection comes in to it

If some doesnt understand this point then they have no knowledge of any sort of cricket.

 

[emranabbas]

you cant lump the whole subcontinent together, modern Pakistani pitches are complete roads, unless you can reverse at pace you will be destroyed, like pak were against England. broad uses his height, and Anderson is a goat swing bowler, pak will never ever play enough tests to develop a bowler to that skill level.

my point isnt that you have one spearhead, its that you need different types of bowlers, and bowling at 80 trying to float it up to swing will get you destroyed in Pakistan. naseem has control and decent pace, shaheen has height, these two will be the core of our bowling line up if they stay fit.

who you put around them should be condition dependent, but line and length style medium pacers will leave you short changed more often than not in pak conditions.

lets say we agree with your argument who are the Pakistani express bowlers that should have been in the squad?

 

[aboveandbeyond]

McGrath was not military medium. He was around the 135k mark. Add his excessive height and skill set then the ingredients of greatness were there.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

This series has been a huge contrast to the 2019 series. Back in 2019, we brought our 150 kph fast bowlers like Naseem and Musa. Both got smashed badly.

This time around our "medium Pacers" are here and have been made fun of a lot and copped criticism for their low pace.

Even Shaheen is effectively bowling medium pace and has definitely looked threatening but luck has deserted him.

The other seamers throughout the series have looked far more in control and threatening than our fast bowlers so what does that say?

Have we been too obsessed with high pace and as a result our results have suffered.

Musa should be playing grade 2 cricket not fc. Picking him back (without any experience, not that it had made any difference in the next 4 years) then was a dumb move.

 

[Markhor]

mir hamza has played 3 tests in "home" conditions and picked up 260/2. hardly the kinda numbers to force consistent selection, but hes taken his chance here.

pak cant chop and change for conditions since we only play like 6 tests a year, it would mean some bowlers playing 2 or 3 tests a year, and theres no way you can develop a bowler for test matches like that.

hamza wasn't selected for the conditions, he was just next in line, and happened to find conditions which suited him.

In fairness to the think tank, Mohammad Wasim jr was next in line and outperformed Mir Hamza in the practice match at Junction Oval.

However they looked at the conditions and probably thought Mir Hamza's skillset would be better suited.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In fairness to the think tank, Mohammad Wasim jr was next in line and outperformed Mir Hamza in the practice match at Junction Oval.

However they looked at the conditions and probably thought Mir Hamza's skillset would be better suited.

Gratifying they actually looked at the conditions and picked the right bowler for them. Not sure that has been the case for the last 20 years or so.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Musa should be playing grade 2 cricket not fc. Picking him back (without any experience, not that it had made any difference in the next 4 years) then was a dumb move.

Musa is a case in point that pace isn't everything. He's very quick and aggressive, but as he is quite short and gets no lift or bounce, he is just canon fodder on any wicket. People are suddenly talking about horses for courses, but that is all most of us have been asking for. Stop picking pace bowlers on the back of a few eye catching performances when you can see they lack basics such as how to use the new ball.

 

[Kianig89]

To the OP what's has this trundler brigade achieved nothing tangible Australia seems on course for a routine whitewash to Pakistan

 

[Sher Khan]

To the OP what's has this trundler brigade achieved nothing tangible Australia seems on course for a routine whitewash to Pakistan

Yep blame Shafique for those costly drops. We should won both tests.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yep blame Shafique for those costly drops. We should won both tests.

And the batsmen. The game isn't just won or lost by bowlers, although it may seem like that during most of Pakistan's recent history.

 

[sweep_shot]

Most successful pacers in cricket history were not express pacers.

Line and length are far more important. McGrath, for example.

 

[topspin]

I think Glenn McGrath may disagree with you…

He wouldn't because he could take the pitch out of the equation with his height and bowling skills.

Also, make no mistake, McGrath wasn't some trundler.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

He wouldn't because he could take the pitch out of the equation with his height and bowling skills.

Also, make no mistake, McGrath wasn't some trundler.

Agreed, but if he was bowling every other delivery onto the batsman's pads for a free boundary, all the ability in the world couldn't make him a great bowler. His skill wasn't pace - you could argue his height gave him bounce which is correct - but his real quality was he could land the ball wherever he wanted and make it go both ways.

Otherwise Mohammad Irfan also had great pace and bounce...but one ball would be a long hop, then next would be a half volley on the pads. This is the difference between quality and the brainless wannabes.

 

[Buffet]

You don't need express pace, but ability to bowl in 135-145 range makes you effective in all kinds of surfaces.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You don't need express pace, but ability to bowl in 135-145 range makes you effective in all kinds of surfaces.

Not if you can't bowl to line and length. 135-145 range is canon fodder if they are long hops or half volleys.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Mir Hamza and Khurram Shehzad with so much first-class experience, would definitely do a lot better than the newbs Misbah took to Australia in 2019. I mean, why is this even a point of contention?

Mir Hamza was ordinary against New Zealand on flat wickets, while he has bowled quite well in conditions that suit his style of bowling.

Basic point is, we do not have any world-class pace bowler in Pakistan and need to play our team according to the conditions.

 

[Farabi]

Conditions aren’t the same. This test at the MCG is more akin to a test played in England.

In typical Australian conditions, you need pace or somehow be able to take the pitch out of the equation.

This is the biggest myth that has held Pakistan back.
It is the place where you need to bring the pitch into the equation not out of equation, by bowling perfect line and length. The pitch does the rest for you. There is always something for fast bowlers. In the past, Asif, Sarfraz Nawaz and Akram are the only fast bowlers who saw success here.
In the past, our bowlers bowled too quick, short and erratic.

 

[FearlessRoar]

This is the biggest myth that has held Pakistan back.
It is the place where you need to bring the pitch into the equation not out of equation, by bowling perfect line and length. The pitch does the rest for you. There is always something for fast bowlers. In the past, Asif, Sarfraz Nawaz and Akram are the only fast bowlers who saw success here.
In the past, our bowlers bowled too quick, short and erratic.

Medium pace bowlers like Mohammad Asif and Jimmy Anderson proved in Test cricket that accuracy and tricky swing trouble batters more than just bowling fast, showing how their skill is more important than sheer speed.

 

[RidiculousMan]

Makes you wonder what on earth was Faheem doing in the lineup in Perth ahead of Mir hamza. Hamza has been improving every minute he’s out there while faheem was always a waste of space. (Batting or bowling )

I think Faheem has been a huge let down. He can in the Test side and looked a promising All Rounder for that format. He was dropped on a couple occasions. But he continually worsened as a player. His pace is quite low as well. Not good fitness too.

 

[RidiculousMan]

The next time Pakistan tour England. Definitely take Mir, Abbas and Shaheen.

 

[ElRaja]

lets say we agree with your argument who are the Pakistani express bowlers that should have been in the squad?

there are none, but i think somethings got lost in translation, i have no problem with the team that's been played, all im saying is it wont work in Pakistani home conditions, and OP is wrong to say obsession with pace is hurting, you still need one or if ur lucky two proper fast bowlers if you want to challenge in tests consistently, esp in Pakistan.

In fairness to the think tank, Mohammad Wasim jr was next in line and outperformed Mir Hamza in the practice match at Junction Oval.

However they looked at the conditions and probably thought Mir Hamza's skillset would be better suited.

yeah, it was a good call, i dont have a problem with the selection, but do you think this approach can be generalised for a team that will play the majority of its tests in Pakistan?

 

[Buffet]

Not if you can't bowl to line and length. 135-145 range is canon fodder if they are long hops or half volleys.

Bowling line and Length is minimum requirement for any good bowler.

I was making a point that 120 KPH bowlers will never work on flat decks without any assistant despite having line and length. Some one having line and length with 135-145 KPH can be effective even on flat decks.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Comparisons of random 125 kph bowlers who have done well in helpful conditions to Glenn McGrath border on the asinine.

That skillset has never been replicated and never will be considering the diminishing importance of Test cricket.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Comparisons of random 125 kph bowlers who have done well in helpful conditions to Glenn McGrath border on the asinine.

That skillset has never been replicated and never will be considering the diminishing importance of Test cricket.

McGrath was fast because the vertical component of the velocity of his deliveries - the speed of the ball towards and away from the pitch - was very high. This vertical velocity manifests itself in "nip". Bowlers for whom this velocity is high are usually considered to have nip. Nip does not register on the speed gun. In fact, the higher the nip, the lower the other components of the velocity of the delivery will be, because there is only so much velocity a bowler can impart on a ball. This is why bouncers are usually slower on the speed gun compared to yorkers. The component of the velocity directed towards the batsman - and most accurately represented by the speed gun - can be called "skid". A skiddy bowler is someone who seems to rush on to the batsmen.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

McGrath was fast because the vertical component of the velocity of his deliveries - the speed of the ball towards and away from the pitch - was very high. This vertical velocity manifests itself in "nip". Bowlers for whom this velocity is high are usually considered to have nip. Nip does not register on the speed gun. In fact, the higher the nip, the lower the other components of the velocity of the delivery will be, because there is only so much velocity a bowler can impart on a ball. This is why bouncers are usually slower on the speed gun compared to yorkers. The component of the velocity directed towards the batsman - and most accurately represented by the speed gun - can be called "skid". A skiddy bowler is someone who seems to rush on to the batsmen.

Even for sheer airspeed, he could reverse the ball upto 145 kph while attacking the stumps as seen on multiple Asian tours - notably Pakistan 1998 and in India 2001 where he was reversing the ball at 143 kph after bowling 40 + overs in the heat and humidity of Eden Gardens, Kolkata.

And he could sustain these speeds over lengthy career and across both formats until 2003 when he was 33.

It's amazing how the GOAT fast bowler is reduced to being the archetypal line-length trundler when his skills far exceeded that

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Bowling line and Length is minimum requirement for any good bowler.

I was making a point that 120 KPH bowlers will never work on flat decks without any assistant despite having line and length. Some one having line and length with 135-145 KPH can be effective even on flat decks.

Yes you are correct, but we are talking about Pakistan pace aces who can bowl 145 KPH+ but most often can't bowl to line and length. Obviously on a flat deck you don't want medium pacers, but neither do you want idiots who can't bowl to one side of the wicket.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Pakistani pace bowling has been reduced to a bowler being able to bowl line and length consistently This is bread and butter.

 

[160KPH]

Line and length seems particularly important in Australia. In a lot of instances, express pace has worked against us here and gone for runs.

Although line and length + movement is even deadlier if you have pace to go along with it. There’s decent amount that can be extracted from the pitch if you’re willing to hit the same areas for long periods of time. I’ve been impressed by Mir Hamza, Shehzad, and Shaheen. Also, Aamer Jamal has found success here hitting the deck really hard.

 

[Major]

Not if you can't bowl to line and length. 135-145 range is canon fodder if they are long hops or half volleys.

tell that to all the Aamir Jamal fans around here

 

[emranabbas]

if we ask this question in another way

would you sit in a car as a passenger with someone driving at 80 mph and has full control of the car or with someone who is driving at 140mph who could barely control the car

 

[topspin]

This is the biggest myth that has held Pakistan back.
It is the place where you need to bring the pitch into the equation not out of equation, by bowling perfect line and length. The pitch does the rest for you. There is always something for fast bowlers. In the past, Asif, Sarfraz Nawaz and Akram are the only fast bowlers who saw success here.
In the past, our bowlers bowled too quick, short and erratic.

I see it differently because in recent years, Australian wickets have been far more batting friendly. This means you do need more than just 130 kph pace + good line and length.

Pat Cummins is Australia's best bowler in tests not just because he's accurate but also because he's tall and can bowl with good pace.

If you look at the Australian pace attack they are all 6 foot 4 or taller and two of them can bowl 140+ spells.

If you look at Mir Hamza's dismissal of Starc. He roughed him up with a well directed short ball and then got the wicket a few balls later with the edge. If this is what it takes to get Starc then what do you need to get a top order batsman out on a good Australia batting wicket? Line and length is the bare minimum for any bowler playing test cricket but if you're short and bowling at 130, this isn't going to cut it if you want to outbowl the Australian side on a flatter wicket. This is why I say you need bowlers who can take the pitch out of the equation. A good case in point is India's two series wins in Australia during recent times.

 

[Farabi]

I see it differently because in recent years, Australian wickets have been far more batting friendly. This means you do need more than just 130 kph pace + good line and length.

Pat Cummins is Australia's best bowler in tests not just because he's accurate but also because he's tall and can bowl with good pace.

If you look at the Australian pace attack they are all 6 foot 4 or taller and two of them can bowl 140+ spells.

If you look at Mir Hamza's dismissal of Starc. He roughed him up with a well directed short ball and then got the wicket a few balls later with the edge. If this is what it takes to get Starc then what do you need to get a top order batsman out on a good Australia batting wicket? Line and length is the bare minimum for any bowler playing test cricket but if you're short and bowling at 130, this isn't going to cut it if you want to outbowl the Australian side on a flatter wicket. This is why I say you need bowlers who can take the pitch out of the equation. A good case in point is India's two series wins in Australia during recent times.

Are you watching the same test series?