Pakistan's pacers have been terrible lately, what has happened to them?

[The Bald Eagle]

Pakistani pacers got a great deal of thrashing and beating in recent ODI Cricket World Cup 2023. On more than four occasions, Pak bowlers conceded more than 300 runs, including a 401 run bashing at hand of New Zealand. The recent dip in bowling performance can be traced from mid September since loss against India in Asia Cup. Even Shaheen and Rauf were too expensive in CWC and were at the receiving end of some of the most undesirable records in CWC. And Now today Pak pacers failed miserably to bowl out somewhat anonymous Australia PM XI . Only 3 wickets claimed by our pacers against them.So the question arises what has turned our “deadly pace factory” into mediocre and pedestrian bowling unit.

 

[Buffet]

Pakistani pacers got a great deal of thrashing and beating in recent ODI Cricket World Cup 2023. On more than four occasions, Pak bowlers conceded more than 300 runs, including a 401 run bashing at hand of New Zealand. The recent dip in bowling performance can be traced from mid September since loss against India in Asia Cup. Even Shaheen and Rauf were too expensive in CWC and were at the receiving end of some of the most undesirable records in CWC. And Now today Pak pacers failed miserably to bowl out somewhat anonymous Australia PM XI . Only 3 wickets claimed by our pacers against them.So the question arises what has turned our “deadly pace factory” into mediocre and pedestrian bowling unit.

You have answered your question in the post itself.

On serious note, Pakistan used to have deadly pace factory 25 years back. Not sure what you mean by deadly pace factory in recent era.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

You have answered your question in the post itself.

On serious note, Pakistan used to have deadly pace factory 25 years back. Not sure what you mean by deadly pace factory in recent era.

Bro referring to Media's designated deadly trio of "shaheen, Naseem and Rauf"

 

[Bilal7]

You realize 1/3 of our premier pace attack was injured during this period, right?

Naseem Shah is a crucial cog of the Shaheen-Naseem-Haris trio.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

They lack basic bowling skills, especially with the new ball. You need to be able to swing or seam the ball away, not just into the batsmen's pads. Speed isn't the issue, they just don't know bowling basics.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Any success Pakistan had in recent times was due to swing rather than pace.They have to rebrand themselves and work on honing their skills there instead of trying for clock speeds. SA, Aus even Windies produce such pace bowlers. With high clock speed. Fans and culture are also reasons to show themselves as speed machines rather than wicket takers. They get away in ultra short T20 formats as they bowl 2 over spell mostly. Easy to push yourself there. Great fast bowlers are celebrated for their wickets not for speed gun measurement.

 

[The_KING]

Because Pakistanis think it is all about pace, that is why we hear this nonsense “pace is pace yaar.” You need good swing and seam movement to trouble the best batsmen, not just pace. But sadly, our dumb bowlers and fans don’t realise that.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Shaheens bowling avg before cwc was 23.94, while Haris Rauf's avg was 26.40.

But in recent cwc they were butchered. Have a look

 

[Stewie]

When the focus shifts from longer formats to T20, this happens. You need to play longer formats and bowl plenty of overs to become top class.

 

[Buffet]

Bro referring to Media's designated deadly trio of "shaheen, Naseem and Rauf"

I think all 3 fully fit will do decent, but all 3 have to play with full fitness. I don't think it happened in the period when performance deteriorated. These bowlers are not multiskilled to bowl at all stages. One is mostly good with new ball and one is mostly good with old ball. So they can only do certain roles. If one is missing then shifting those roles won't work.

 

[shamaan]

Thet dont Body mechanics to bowl long spells and only interested in making quick money.

 

[Stewie]

Shaheens bowling avg before cwc was 23.94, while Haris Rauf's avg was 26.40.

But in recent cwc they were butchered. Have a look
View attachment 139882

By the way, based on that, I would not say Shaheen was butchered. He did play a few games with a finger injury and his overall average is only a few runs worse than his career average. His ER is also below 6 an over and these are all very decent stats.
Haris Rauf definitey struggled. I think Shaheen's stats would have been better if Haris and Shadab had put in decent performances. We really did not have any other bowler on the other end to exert pressure on the opposition during the world cup. All the other bowlers were leaking runs and not taking wickets.

 

[ads101]

Our pacers have done relatively well in shorter formats. One bad world cup doesn't change that. Shaheen is not at his best and hasn't been for a while, I think he needs to be rested for some time for the injuries to properly heal. But Naseem is the bowler that holds things together, the most skilful out of the three who can control the runs. Guys like Rauf especially aren't going to be great without someone like Naseem creating the pressure, and was forced to bowl with the new ball which he's unsuited. India's attack was more skilled and better than ours, even if Naseem were to play, but I still think our first choice trio isn't bad at all.

For tests its simply because our best bowlers prefer to concentrate on limited overs. They don't put much time in, and especially if they are fast or have a body that is physically demanding to bowl with, it is hard for them to remain injury free if they put a lot of effort in tests.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

it’s simple really, you cannot expect to get the best out of your pace bowlers when they are playing Tests, T20i’s, ODI’s, PSL and other leagues.

I said it before and I’ll say it again, Keep the likes of Shaheen and Naseem away from test cricket, it’s the only way we’ll get the best out of them in LOI’s.

For test cricket, we need to pick players who are committed to test cricket only. To reimburse them for missing out on leagues and LOI’s, PCB needs to increase the salaries for the test format and reduce the salaries for LOI players.

 

[AAli98]

They all want to be 2/4 over bowlers no skill to ball more than 10 overs as rauf & co we’re ruthlessly exposed & chickened out of Aus tour.

 

[Saj]

20 wickets in a Test against Australia?

I don't see it happening unless Shaheen has a blinder.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I think all 3 fully fit will do decent, but all 3 have to play with full fitness. I don't think it happened in the period when performance deteriorated. These bowlers are not multiskilled to bowl at all stages. One is mostly good with new ball and one is mostly good with old ball. So they can only do certain roles. If one is missing then shifting those roles won't work.

Yep that appears to be a reasonable explanation. May be if they are fit enough then they could wreck havoc.

 

[Savak]

The following bowlers are injured and unavailable

1) Naseem Shah
2) Mohammad Hasnain
3) Ehsanullah

The following bowler is fatigued and jaded and not 100%

1) Shaheen Afridi

The following bowlers are struggling badly for form

1) Hasan Ali
2) Shahnawaz Dhani


The following bowlers are only white ball bowlers and under cooked for test matches

1) Mohd Wasim Jr
2) Aamir Jamal
3) Haris Rauf

The following bowlers are domestic level and not international standard

1) Mir Hamza
2) Khurram Shehzad
3) Faheem Ashraf

And Pakistan have no spinners to speak off

Hence no wonder we are struggling

 

[msb314]

Everyone has realized that SSA is a total fraud with no pace, swing nor seam and on top of that is a total mental midget..

I fully expect he’ll be wicketless in the first two Tests but will strike against a few tailenders in the 3rd Test to hoodwink everyone that he had a “good” series..

Total shambles

 

[Fenrir]

Poor pitches,lack of good bowling coaches and mediocre domestic cricket structure are also the reasons why our bowlers don’t do well at international level.Pakistan selects pace bowlers too early.Every quick bowler should play two seasons of first class cricket before getting selected.

 

[Savak]

Poor pitches,lack of good bowling coaches and mediocre domestic cricket structure are also the reasons why our bowlers don’t do well at international level.Pakistan selects pace bowlers too early.Every quick bowler should play two seasons of first class cricket before getting selected.

Mir Hamza, Khurram Shehzad have played plenty of domestic cricket and have struggled badly at the international level. To be honest, these bowlers find it easy to take wickets in domestic cricket on seaming, low bouncy wickets in Punjab during the winter season but struggle badly in Karachi and hence in international cricket. These bowlers struggle in international cricket because they rarely find the same helpful conditions. Hence why the selectors never picked Sadaf Hussain all these years because they knew his domestic stats were misleading.

 

[ahmadharis1]

That's what happens when you pick t20 bowlers for ODI cricket, you get a mash of bowlers who only know how to throw for 4 overs and luck into wickets when batsman play aggresively. If you can't bowl with a brain, stick to a game plan and bowl to your field you'll get found out in ODIs

 

[Concerned]

Potentially their actual ages have caught up with them?

Afridi was the only special bowler but he’s going down fast.

 

[deltexas]

Simply put honestly there is no incentive for a fast bowler from Pak in test cricket. Bowl close to 80 or so overs in 2 tests and get injured and you are done. Might as well bowl 4 t20 overs and make good money and less strain on the body less injuries and longevity is more.. Pak and all other teams except ind eng aus should stop playing test cricket which is not financially viable. Might as well stick to t20 and be really good with that..
Already in the prime minister 11 practice game all bowlers bowled close to 25+ overs.. that's a lot of strain on their bodies

 

[160KPH]

20 wickets in a Test against Australia?

I don't see it happening unless Shaheen has a blinder.

I feel the same way but I am not sure that Shaheen is capable of that anymore post injury. More than anything, I just hope that we can get Shaheen at 100%. I was watching that legendary first over of Shaheen’s against Australia and his wicket taking delivery of Finch was at 148 KPH. When Shaheen’s pace is in the high 140’s all of his other skills feel as if they are firing as well.

Unfortunately for team Pakistan, any time we have gotten a good bowler they have been unable to have any longevity in recent times. I think it is the combination of them playing all 3 formats and the fact that they usually end up playing all the formats. I wonder if there is any research on this but playing all the formats while bowling so much seems to be a real injury risk.

 

[Savak]

One option is to keep your domestic veteran stock like Mir Hamza, Khurram Shehzad, Sameen Gul, Mohd Ali, Abbas etc exclusively for test cricket and keep the likes of Shaheen, Nasim, Hasnain, Rauf, Dhani, Wasim Jr and co exclusively for ODI and T20

 

[Varun]

The only 2 great bowlers Pakistan have produced are Wasim and Waqar. And it's over 20 years since they retired without replacement.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Lack of interest, more leagues means more money. No really desire to play for your home country when you can earn more than double by playing some random leagues instead of grinding it hard in domestic circuit.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

One option is to keep your domestic veteran stock like Mir Hamza, Khurram Shehzad, Sameen Gul, Mohd Ali, Abbas etc exclusively for test cricket and keep the likes of Shaheen, Nasim, Hasnain, Rauf, Dhani, Wasim Jr and co exclusively for ODI and T20

This kind of stuff is common in Australian cricket and it works for them..So may be it could work for Pakistan also. But still to be a part of test matches is essential for pacers these days as that is the main format where a pacer gets grinding.

 

[Markhor]

The explanation that our fast bowlers are struggling because they play all three formats would suffice if we didn't play as little Test cricket as we do, and were the only team playing multiple formats. Address the root causes.

1) Fast-tracking pacers from random PSL/Pepsi/UFone talent hunts instead of putting them through the grind of FC cricket.

Despite the shortcomings of our QEA Trophy - red-ball cricket forces bowlers to learn how to bowl long spells and set up batsmen. In T20, wickets can be regularly taken from nothing bowling, i.e. a batsman holing out in the deep. It's inadequate preparation for the rhythms of ODI and Test cricket.

2) Medical/workload mismanagement. Too often we've seen injuries to pacers being mishandled forcing them to go overseas at great expense.

The Shaheen situation last year where he was taken on a plane, wrecked knee and all, to the Netherlands to "rehab with the team" and being hurriedly recalled for the T20 World Cup where he reaggravated his injury was the height of foolishness.

Playing all three formats as a fast bowler is difficult, but not impossible provided workloads are managed. Instead our selectors play our frontline pacers in every meaningless bilateral as if burnout and injury is desirable not unintentional !

3) Quality of bowling coaching. Fast bowling perhaps doesn't require the intensive structured coaching a batsman needs - but a young pacer still needs careful handling with bad habits identified and eliminated early.

Currently too many bowlers enter the national setup with glaring technical flaws. Look at Naseem Shah when he debuted. The longer spent with our Pakistani coaches between 2019-21, the worse he got. He only addressed his technical issues after working with Ian Pont, and developed his white-ball skills under Dwayne Bravo's captaincy in CPL 2021.

I saw Mohammad Zeeshan for the first time yesterday in U19 Asia Cup and he looks a stress fracture just waiting to happen. PCB must review the quality of bowling coaching at all levels, especially related to biomechanics so that bowlers develop actions that maximise their skills but minimises injury risks.

 

[Mamoon]

It was the overhyping of delusional fans that made them look good. The reality is that Naseem and Rauf are amongst the worst fast bowlers in the world and their record proves it.

Shaheen is the only quality fast bowler but he has lost his pace and zip that made him a world class bowler.

Pakistan plays too many matches against B and C teams which means they and their fans start to overestimate their skills and abilities.

The treatment by Kohli and Rahul in the Asia Cup was necessary to bring them back to earth and give them a dose of reality. They never recovered from that mauling.

 

[Mamoon]

The only 2 great bowlers Pakistan have produced are Wasim and Waqar. And it's over 20 years since they retired without replacement.

Waqar was not a great bowler. He was no better than Rauf and Wahab but he was lucky to bowl with doctored balls against lineups that had 3-4 genuine number 11s.

Those doctored balls would not be deemed fit to play by any umpire today in any format.

I agree that Pakistan have only produced two genuinely great bowlers and that would be Wasim and Imran.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Poor observation man. KL rahul has always looked clueless against Naseem Shah. Also Naseem Shah has been really economical for Pakistan over the years. So that's why I don't agree with your description of naseem.

 

[deltexas]

Poor observation man. KL rahul has always looked clueless against Naseem Shah. Also Naseem Shah has been really economical for Pakistan over the years. So that's why I don't agree with your description of naseem.

Klrahul is the worst example you can use. He is a mental midget of the highest order. Naseem shah is decent but overhyped by the pak fans. And him being in the team would not change the 2-0 loss pending to aus.

 

[Kianig89]

It's a cultural thing now, post spot fixing saga, Pakistan team became very defensive infact when Misbah took over we got ultra defensive the motto was to regain our credibility by performance and for this the first step was not to lose games so that fans and media gets suspicious/hyper
Misbah ul Haq just killed all the flare and X-faactor if team had any and bowlers with military medium pace who can hold up ends were backed unlike the fast bowlers , Aizaz Cheema Tanvir Ahmed Imran Khan Jr were selected while players who could have been polished like Rahat Ali, Muhammad Talha, Sohail Khan were chopped and changed.

This also confused the domestic players and we had a paradigm shift thus far the decline in pace attack and till day we are paying the price

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

There should be no fast bowler in the PCT set up this is under 6ft and bowls slower than 85mph. The pacer should also have 2 years to prove they are able to manage their physique and add on strength and muscle.

I think what's happened is the selectors have become soft and have started to cut corners and this has reinforced bad selections in domestics.

Even Shaheen, would you say he has the physique for a fast bowler? No, he looks brittle.

Need to go back to basics, find them young and they have to satisfy the criteria above. No uncle cousin connection who is 5ft 9 with skinny arms bowling pies for in the hope to hop on the T20 circuit.

Some of these pacers are using PCT in ODI and tests to get attention so they can play in T20 leagues. Rauf is a classic example.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Have seen some great talent in recent national t20 tournament. May be they can come and fill the void in our pace department.

 

[Stewie]

The only 2 great bowlers Pakistan have produced are Wasim and Waqar. And it's over 20 years since they retired without replacement.

I guess Shoaib, Asif, Amir, Gul, Shaheen, etc are nothing compared to the great Kapil Dev who beats in Gul amongst those bowlers when it comes to test average.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Test bowling line-up is a problem for me, rest of ODIs and T20 bowling line up is all fine. We need to find a good specialist spinner and a pacer who can dismantle any batting line on a given day.

 

[Usman Chadda]

T20 bowlers, no one seems to care for the longer format.

There is hardly any thought process involved when you watch a Pakistani pacer bowl in Test or ODI cricket.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

T20 bowlers, no one seems to care for the longer format.

There is hardly any thought process involved when you watch a Pakistani pacer bowl in Test or ODI cricket.

Unfortunately, our bowlers lack proper game plan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

it’s simple really, you cannot expect to get the best out of your pace bowlers when they are playing Tests, T20i’s, ODI’s, PSL and other leagues.

I said it before and I’ll say it again, Keep the likes of Shaheen and Naseem away from test cricket, it’s the only way we’ll get the best out of them in LOI’s.

For test cricket, we need to pick players who are committed to test cricket only. To reimburse them for missing out on leagues and LOI’s, PCB needs to increase the salaries for the test format and reduce the salaries for LOI players.

I don't buy this excuse that they are exhausted by playing too much cricket. When you have a new ball in the first over of the game how tired can you be? Try hitting the seam or bowling an outswinger you Einsteins, instead of slinging the ball open chested into the batsman's pads.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Well, we all desperately miss two things now. The wicket in the first over of Shaheen and some deadly outswingers from Naseem. Hope these guys somehow get back into their old form.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In addition to being able to swing or seam the new ball away from the batsman, a skill too many Pakistan bowlers lack, it's also necessary to hit the right lengths. Pakistan bowlers only seem to be able to bowl the line and length which works with the old ball when the ball is reversing. Some of the highly qualified bowling coaches should perhaps advise them that it won't work with a new ball.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

I guess Shoaib, Asif, Amir, Gul, Shaheen, etc are nothing compared to the great Kapil Dev who beats in Gul amongst those bowlers when it comes to test average.

Literally none of those guys could even get to 200 test wickets lol. Kapil took 434 wickets single handedly carrying India's minnow level bowling attack on dead pitches. There's no need to get hurt, no one considers any of asif, gul, shaheen or amir to be a test great.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Kapil Dev was a highly skilled swing bowler. Current Pakistan bowlers are nowhere near that level.

 

[Stewie]

Literally none of those guys could even get to 200 test wickets lol. Kapil took 434 wickets single handedly carrying India's minnow level bowling attack on dead pitches. There's no need to get hurt, no one considers any of asif, gul, shaheen or amir to be a test great.

You can check again who was better. All these bowlers san Gul average better than Kapil Dev. I am just trying to say that some Indian here thinks Pakistan did not produce any bowling greats after Wasim and Waqar. But Shoaib, Asif, Aamir all had better bowling average than Kapil Dev who bowled in the era where there was still a balance between bat and ball. These guys bowled in an era where that balance was shifting towards the bat. And they still average better than Kapil Dev. Pakistan has produced bowlers who can easily be considered greats of the game since Wasim and Waqar. They did not have the longevity factor but that doesnt mean they cannot be classified in the same category.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

One note guys. Its not a Kapil dev thread but you still can post competitive stats of Pak pacers with others.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

You can check again who was better. All these bowlers san Gul average better than Kapil Dev. I am just trying to say that some Indian here thinks Pakistan did not produce any bowling greats after Wasim and Waqar. But Shoaib, Asif, Aamir all had better bowling average than Kapil Dev who bowled in the era where there was still a balance between bat and ball. These guys bowled in an era where that balance was shifting towards the bat. And they still average better than Kapil Dev. Pakistan has produced bowlers who can easily be considered greats of the game since Wasim and Waqar. They did not have the longevity factor but that doesnt mean they cannot be classified in the same category.

Asif played 23 test matches and amir played 36. They combined played less than 60 tests, the sample is tiny. No one considers amir and asif as greats of the game, they barely played. Kapil played 134 tests single handley carrying India. Longevity is extremely important when it comes to greatness. Adam voges averages higher than sry, lara, ponting and kallis.

 

[Pakhs]

The following bowlers are injured and unavailable

1) Naseem Shah
2) Mohammad Hasnain
3) Ehsanullah

The following bowler is fatigued and jaded and not 100%

1) Shaheen Afridi

The following bowlers are struggling badly for form

1) Hasan Ali
2) Shahnawaz Dhani


The following bowlers are only white ball bowlers and under cooked for test matches

1) Mohd Wasim Jr
2) Aamir Jamal
3) Haris Rauf

The following bowlers are domestic level and not international standard

1) Mir Hamza
2) Khurram Shehzad
3) Faheem Ashraf

And Pakistan have no spinners to speak off

Hence no wonder we are struggling

This is mostly correct, The bowlers in general were fatigued having played too much cricket and also lack of quality spinners who can take wickets really handicapped and affected their success. This happened to India in the final when their spinners didnt bowl well the fast bowlers became in effective too. Its very difficult for any to have success in international cricket now a days if the overall bowling unit cant maintain pressure.

 

[Pakhs]

Asif played 23 test matches and amir played 36. They combined played less than 60 tests, the sample is tiny. No one considers amir and asif as greats of the game, they barely played. Kapil played 134 tests single handley carrying India. Longevity is extremely important when it comes to greatness. Adam voges averages higher than sry, lara, ponting and kallis.

Shoaib was the last great fast bowler Pakistan have produced and now shaheen / naseem may get there too. Asif and Amir had the tools to be great but they unfortunately played too less however Amir did win Pakistan two ICC tournaments because talent was there.

However Pakistan now need to concentrate on finding 5 good bowlers who can maintain pressure in longer formats of the game and hunt as a pack.

 

[Stewie]

Asif played 23 test matches and amir played 36. They combined played less than 60 tests, the sample is tiny. No one considers amir and asif as greats of the game, they barely played. Kapil played 134 tests single handley carrying India. Longevity is extremely important when it comes to greatness. Adam voges averages higher than sry, lara, ponting and kallis.

You are hung up on the comparison I made vs Kapil. Think of the larger point I tried to make. The sample size is small but in cricketing terms we look at people who have taken more than a 100 wickets. Shoaib and Asif fulfill that critera and have better stats than Kapil Dev and they have better stats to be considered great bowlers, which brings me to my larger point that when some Indian says Pakistan have not produced great bowlers since the two Ws they are talking out of their rear end. We have bowlers who better your legendary bowlers test average and shoaib in particular was a more complete bowler than Kapil Dev ever could be.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

You are hung up on the comparison I made vs Kapil. Think of the larger point I tried to make. The sample size is small but in cricketing terms we look at people who have taken more than a 100 wickets. Shoaib and Asif fulfill that critera and have better stats than Kapil Dev and they have better stats to be considered great bowlers, which brings me to my larger point that when some Indian says Pakistan have not produced great bowlers since the two Ws they are talking out of their rear end. We have bowlers who better your legendary bowlers test average and shoaib in particular was a more complete bowler than Kapil Dev ever could be.

Kapils average massively declined because he played so many tests after his peak. While many of these pakistani bowlers, never had to play past their decline. The same way voges had a higher average than sachin and lara.
But I agree than Shoaib was much better than kapil, I don't think most Indians would dispute that fact, but lacks the longevity to be in waqar and akram bracket. Kapil was merely an Indian great and a very good bowler, he was no atg. The never Pakistani bowlers are compared to atgs like that Ws and Imran, Kapil shouldn't be the benchmark

 

[Kianig89]

Rahat Ali Junaid Khan were the two bowlers who were changed and chopped and never really were trusted as the backbone of Test attack, add to it the flat wickets in Emirates and then in Pakistan did not lured the pacers to bowl their heart out.

 

[Stewie]

Kapils average massively declined because he played so many tests after his peak. While many of these pakistani bowlers, never had to play past their decline. The same way voges had a higher average than sachin and lara.
But I agree than Shoaib was much better than kapil, I don't think most Indians would dispute that fact, but lacks the longevity to be in waqar and akram bracket. Kapil was merely an Indian great and a very good bowler, he was no atg. The never Pakistani bowlers are compared to atgs like that Ws and Imran, Kapil shouldn't be the benchmark

No it didnt. His caraeer average never was in the same bracket as the great bowlers of the world who average below 25 or so. When we talk about the Marshalls, the Imrans, the two Ws, the Donalds, Lillees, Thompsons of the world, their average is the indicator of greatness and its always .. almost always below 25. Even Jimmy's average is not there and he has been a fine bowler

Asif and Shoaib both have averages that fall in that bucket, even though they played their tests mostly on dead wickets against some of the top batsmen of the world.

 

[MenInG]

Thread is about Pakistan pacers.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

No it didnt. His caraeer average never was in the same bracket as the great bowlers of the world who average below 25 or so. When we talk about the Marshalls, the Imrans, the two Ws, the Donalds, Lillees, Thompsons of the world, their average is the indicator of greatness and its always .. almost always below 25. Even Jimmy's average is not there and he has been a fine bowler

Asif and Shoaib both have averages that fall in that bucket, even though they played their tests mostly on dead wickets against some of the top batsmen of the world.

If you are talking about Jeff thomson, he averaged 28 despite playing most of his matches in Australia. Shoaib himself averages 25+. Taking about averages without context makes no sense.
And lol @ being delusional enough to think that Akhtar was a better bowler than Anderson. The difference in their average is less than one, and Anderson has taken almost 700 test wickets while Akhtar couldn't even take 200 wickets.

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[Varun]

I guess Shoaib, Asif, Amir, Gul, Shaheen, etc are nothing compared to the great Kapil Dev who beats in Gul amongst those bowlers when it comes to test average.

None of those guys could even last 50 tests.

 

[Stewie]

None of those guys could even last 50 tests.

For one reason or another, including one that involves having options. The ony reason Dev played so many tests, his last 20-30 on his last legs was because India did not have any options. Does not make him a better fast bowler than those who played fewer tests. We have quite a few such cases of bowlers who could not play much but are considered great fast bowlers. Shane Bond is one of them. Pakistan has had a steady supply of fast bowlers since the two Ws. In fact it is not till T20 cricket came along, more specifically PSL when we started to struggle because the bowlers are focusing on T20 and dont have the skills for the long game.

 

[Varun]

For one reason or another, including one that involves having options. The ony reason Dev played so many tests, his last 20-30 on his last legs was because India did not have any options. Does not make him a better fast bowler than those who played fewer tests. We have quite a few such cases of bowlers who could not play much but are considered great fast bowlers. Shane Bond is one of them. Pakistan has had a steady supply of fast bowlers since the two Ws. In fact it is not till T20 cricket came along, more specifically PSL when we started to struggle because the bowlers are focusing on T20 and dont have the skills for the long game.

Either way, my statement was that Pakistan haven't produced a great bowler since W/W who retired 2 decades ago. And you're trying to cope by picking on an Indian bowler who is from an even older vintage.

Even contemporary tier-II bowlers of other teams have been better than the Amirs/Guls etc. you've mentioned: Mitchell Johnson, Stuart Broad, Tim Southee, Morne Morkel, so on and so forth.

 

[Devadwal]

Pakistan need quality test bowler . Shaheen need to get his mojo back otherwise Pakistan is getting destroyed by every team in test cricket.
Naseem injury runied his development as he was most threatning Pakistan bowler in recent times .

 

[Stewie]

Either way, my statement was that Pakistan haven't produced a great bowler since W/W who retired 2 decades ago. And you're trying to cope by picking on an Indian bowler who is from an even older vintage.

Even contemporary tier-II bowlers of other teams have been better than the Amirs/Guls etc. you've mentioned: Mitchell Johnson, Stuart Broad, Tim Southee, Morne Morkel, so on and so forth.

Here is a comparison of some of our bowlers' test average since the 2 Ws and the bowlers you are comparing them with:

Asif - 24.36
Shoaib - 25.69
Hasan - 25.67
Abbas - 23.02
Shaheen 25.58

Mitch Johnson - 28.40
Stuart Broad - 27.68
Tim Southee - 28.94
Morkel - 27.66


Let us not use longevity as the only yardstick in determining greatness. If that was the case, Kapil Dev would be considered the greatest fast bowler ever when he became the highest test wicket taker in the world in the 90s. But he was not called that. Anderson is also not going to be called the greatest fast bowler ever now today. Those titles are usually reserved for people like Marshall, Wasim, McGrath and the one thing they all have in common is a superior bowling average.

The Pakistani bowlers I cited above have superior bowling average to the bowlers you mentioned in your argument.
Perhaps your statement itself was a poor attempt at picking on Pakistan quick bowlers and was poorly researched?

 

[shamaan]

Pakistan need quality test bowler . Shaheen need to get his mojo back otherwise Pakistan is getting destroyed by every team in test cricket.
Naseem injury runied his development as he was most threatning Pakistan bowler in recent times .

No we ain't getting beat by every team.

 

[Devadwal]

No we ain't getting beat by every team.

You can't win a single series at home in last session .

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Unfortunately, the fortunes of Pakistani pacers haven't changed so far in the first Test against Australia. Shaheen, Faheem Ashraf and Aamer Jamal being thrashed at a run rate of 4.5 rpo.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Pakistan cricket had lost the basics. Line & length trumps pace and the latter useless with neither

 

[moghul]

Waqar was not a great bowler. He was no better than Rauf and Wahab but he was lucky to bowl with doctored balls against lineups that had 3-4 genuine number 11s.

Those doctored balls would not be deemed fit to play by any umpire today in any format.

I agree that Pakistan have only produced two genuinely great bowlers and that would be Wasim and Imran.

Among many of your very good posts , you post something like this , which wouldn’t make any sense and is based on your personal disliking for a player on non-cricketing basis. .

Waqar , in my opinion was even better than Waseem and along with Marshall and Styne was of the most skillful fast bowlers in last 30 years or so .

 

[Shadow_muaythai]

Pakistan are just always playing catch up it seems, regardless of whether that be in terms of captaincy, fielding, fitness, batting, bowling or style of play. Pakistan have always had a reactionary approach to cricket without having their own forward thinking. Im sure the pakistani bowlers have looked at other international teams and come to the decision that pace is not as much of a priority (probably been watching the success of indian pacers in indian conditions) or maybe the pace is falling to try and give longetivity to their own careers. This is something that the coaching staff should address as well as the management. I think its time to go back to basics in all departments and build on the exceptional raw talent that pakistan has always produced.

 

[a_jawad]

Other than the first session, honestly not the kind of bloodbath I was expecting. Fielding was truly Pakistan standards

 

[AMSS]

Let us not use longevity as the only yardstick in determining greatness.

LMAO. Of course longevity is THE dominant metric.

Otherwise mediocre nobodies like Bhuvi and Asif would get rated among the best. For whatever reasons pak fans cannot stop raving about flash in the pans like Asif who has an identical number as Bhuvi. Get real.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Other than the first session, honestly not the kind of bloodbath I was expecting. Fielding was truly Pakistan standards

First session was usual as expected. Poor show from Shaheen today even Aamer Jamal and khurram looked more experienced than him today.

 

[Devadwal]

Shaheen has been very poor after Asia cup. He is not getting any swing and his pace is down. What is the real problem with him ?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Here is a comparison of some of our bowlers' test average since the 2 Ws and the bowlers you are comparing them with:

Asif - 24.36
Shoaib - 25.69
Hasan - 25.67
Abbas - 23.02
Shaheen 25.58

Mitch Johnson - 28.40
Stuart Broad - 27.68
Tim Southee - 28.94
Morkel - 27.66


Let us not use longevity as the only yardstick in determining greatness. If that was the case, Kapil Dev would be considered the greatest fast bowler ever when he became the highest test wicket taker in the world in the 90s. But he was not called that. Anderson is also not going to be called the greatest fast bowler ever now today. Those titles are usually reserved for people like Marshall, Wasim, McGrath and the one thing they all have in common is a superior bowling average.

The Pakistani bowlers I cited above have superior bowling average to the bowlers you mentioned in your argument.
Perhaps your statement itself was a poor attempt at picking on Pakistan quick bowlers and was poorly researched?

Same Hasan Ali who can't even make it ahead of Faheem Ashraf in today's match is somehow even in the conversation ? Talk about meaningless averages.

These averages would mean something if they had picked 200 + wickets across various conditions and and against multiple opponents.

 

[Barragan]

They weren't so bad.

I was expecting much worse with 400-2 or something.

Good achievement.

 

[FearlessRoar]

And we have also failed to produce any bowler in recent years who could take even 200 Test wickets.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1735230559205372056

 

[The Bald Eagle]

And we have also failed to produce any bowler in recent years who could take even 200 Test wickets.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1735230559205372056

Can we do a trade off. Why not replace Starc with our bowlers. It shall make things even then.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Pakistan's Test attack for the last 3-4 years has been nothing more than Ordinary. They lack the I.Q for test match fast bowling

 

[The Bald Eagle]

They weren't so bad.

I was expecting much worse with 400-2 or something.

Good achievement.

yeah at one point, it looked likely but a decent comeback from or bowlers. Still the job half done ,if our team really wants to win this match then they should must restrict Aussies under 400 or else it over for them.

 

[Fenrir]

LMAO. Of course longevity is THE dominant metric.

Otherwise mediocre nobodies like Bhuvi and Asif would get rated among the best. For whatever reasons pak fans cannot stop raving about flash in the pans like Asif who has an identical number as Bhuvi. Get real.

Asif was far more skilful than Bhuvi.He was a magician.He and other bowlers were let down by poor fielding.Pakistan used to dropped lots of catches.They are still a poor fielding side.

 

[Firebat]

It's depressing that being able to bowl on a consistent line and length is such a lost art in our country. Even our premier talisman new ball bowler finds it impossible to do it.

Australia won't find extravagent swing when they get the ball, but the likes of Cummins and Hazlewood will bowl 6 balls on the perfect spot over after over, and inevitably one will seam just enough to get the nick. This is the essence of Test match bowling, it's such a simple concept to understand.

Why can't Pakistan's professional cricketers do it?