[PICTURES] Prostrating oneself or doing sajda after getting to milestones

[sharmaji]

Its totally fine. No problems with it at all. If at all, it actually looks nice to see someone humble instead of arrogant.

 

[sshakir411]

I remember Amir Sohail and Rameez Raja performing the sajdah back in 1992 when Pakistan won the world cup final in Melbourne.

I was talking about Sajdah for personal milestones like a hundred or 5fer. The entire Pakistan team did sajdah after winning the 92 WC and test series in India in 99. That is still palatable. Sajdah for personal milestone like hundred was started by Salman then pioneered by Yousuf.

No harm in showing gratitude for reaching your personal milestone just do it when the game is over or when you’re back in the pavilion. Even the prophet pbuh waited until the fight for Badr was done and completed to do a sajdah and thank the Almighty.

 

[topspin]

I was talking about Sajdah for personal milestones like a hundred or 5fer. The entire Pakistan team did sajdah after winning the 92 WC and test series in India in 99. That is still palatable. Sajdah for personal milestone like hundred was started by Salman then pioneered by Yousuf.

No harm in showing gratitude for reaching your personal milestone just do it when the game is over or when you’re back in the pavilion. Even the prophet pbuh waited until the fight for Badr was done and completed to do a sajdah and thank the Almighty.

Very well said. I would much rather see this.

Given the small team mentality of Pakistan cricket, perhaps it's only a matter of time before we see players performing the Sajdah once they have got off the mark.

 

[topspin]

Also [MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION], insinuating that the the lack of 'swagger' and personality is in direct correlation to our players being more 'Islamise[d]' is ridiculously absurd.

Everyone can see the players are not doing it by choice but because they are instructed to do so, with the aim of gaining approval from the religious fanatics of our society.

As mentioned in my last post, this is evident by the fact that they utter the exact same words during the post match presentations, when they thank the Almighty.

If they players can't be themselves and are being controlled in this manner, you won't see the real personality and swagger.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

I was talking about Sajdah for personal milestones like a hundred or 5fer. The entire Pakistan team did sajdah after winning the 92 WC and test series in India in 99. That is still palatable. Sajdah for personal milestone like hundred was started by Salman then pioneered by Yousuf.

No harm in showing gratitude for reaching your personal milestone just do it when the game is over or when you’re back in the pavilion. Even the prophet pbuh waited until the fight for Badr was done and completed to do a sajdah and thank the Almighty.

Your example is a historical battle in an Arabian desert. Not sure how playing test cricket in Australia correlates. Bizarre mindset.

 

[KingT]

Everyone can see the players are not doing it by choice but because they are instructed to do so, with the aim of gaining approval from the religious fanatics of our society.

As mentioned in my last post, this is evident by the fact that they utter the exact same words during the post match presentations, when they thank the Almighty.

If they players can't be themselves and are being controlled in this manner, you won't see the real personality and swagger.

Lol that's just not true.
Many of the "religious fanatics" you're talking about think of cricketers as kaafirs as they miss their prayers. This Sajdah issue is not even worthy of criticism lol. It's so trivial even for them.

Also, many religious people want these players to stop doing Sajdah on the dirty pitch. Sajdah should only be done on a clean surface not a cricket pitch.

They are somewhat forced to do it yes but your claim that religious fanatics WANT them to do it is not true.

 

[silentkiller187]

what would you rather do see someone run around like a lunatic beating his chest, i.e. imran tahir, david warner, or someone just thanking God for his feat and doing a simple Sajda, neither is right or wrong but i no what i would rather do. the fat this debate has reached 5 pages says it all about this forum.

 

[KingT]

Your example is a historical battle in an Arabian desert. Not sure how playing test cricket in Australia correlates. Bizarre mindset.

If you have a problem with Islam or religion in general then just say it why're you bringing up such petty issues to show that they're being oppressed?

 

[KingT]

what would you rather do see someone run around like a lunatic beating his chest, i.e. imran tahir, david warner, or someone just thanking God for his feat and doing a simple Sajda, neither is right or wrong but i no what i would rather do. the fat this debate has reached 5 pages says it all about this forum.

It tells us that this forum is filled with a LOT of people who are anti islam or anti religion in general

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

If you have a problem with Islam or religion in general then just say it why're you bringing up such petty issues to show that they're being oppressed?

I have a problem with club grade cricketers attention seeking after scoring a 50 in a pointless bilateral.

Our culture has changed for the worse and it shows. We went from strong personalities and world class players to our current crop who will drop to the ground after scoring a run or taking a wicket.

Miandad, Ijaz, Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq, Zaheer, Inzamam in his younger days and so on and on. Take me back to this generation who knew they were equals without having to resort to religious overtures to hide their insecurities.

 

[world cup captain]

Not a fan of involving religion or religious activities but a player has the right to conduct himself in whichever manner he likes as long it doesn't harm anyone.

There's really only one argument against it which is some players might indicate their level of mediocrity by celebrating excessive for something pointless (anything not helping the team's cause). However, this could be judged by any sort of celebration, doesn't pretain to religion only.

 

[silentkiller187]

I have a problem with club grade cricketers attention seeking after scoring a 50 in a pointless bilateral.

Our culture has changed for the worse and it shows. We went from strong personalities and world class players to our current crop who will drop to the ground after scoring a run or taking a wicket.

Miandad, Ijaz, Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq, Zaheer, Inzamam in his younger days and so on and on. Take me back to this generation who knew they were equals without having to resort to religious overtures to hide their insecurities.

Ridiculous comment sorry to say.How did this topic even come to this. The generation you mentioned did not prostrate because they were too good? is that what your trying to imply? People who celebrate now by doing the sajda are insecure, give me a break. Who are we to judge how one conducts themselves or their connection with god. Everyone needs to focus on themselves and stop being hypocritical

 

[OmarKhan99]

I have a problem with club grade cricketers attention seeking after scoring a 50 in a pointless bilateral.

Our culture has changed for the worse and it shows. We went from strong personalities and world class players to our current crop who will drop to the ground after scoring a run or taking a wicket.

Miandad, Ijaz, Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq, Zaheer, Inzamam in his younger days and so on and on. Take me back to this generation who knew they were equals without having to resort to religious overtures to hide their insecurities.

It's pretty clear that you are conflating two completely different debates. One is about when a player should feel that he needs to celebrate, and the other, what he should do once he wants to celebrate.

First of all, I agree, I think at times we are too satisfied with small individual milestones, and we should be much more ambitious in our self-evaluation and must set the bar for success much higher than we currently do.

However, that 'small' milestone, as we might perceive it to be, could be very a crucial moment and at a critical time for the player. So, I don't think it's appropriate for us to judge what a player expects of himself, yes we can hope that they aim higher, but we've no right to dictate what that person individually feels is his capacity.

Also, regardless of the level of milestone, if the player wishes to do the Sajdah at that particular moment instead of celebrating in a conventional manner, he must be an 'attention seek[er]'? So if he would just do a push ups or some random jump after reaching a 50, would he not be an attention seeker too and would you be against that action? If so, then you don't seem to have a problem with the Sajdah specifically after a milestone but rather what achievement should be considered be even considered a milestone (not sure why you would make that argument on this thread). If not, then how are you confident that it's definitely not because the players genuinely believe that the Sajdah is a way of being thankful and expressing gratitude and instead they do it to "hide their insecurities"?

 

[topspin]

Lol that's just not true.
Many of the "religious fanatics" you're talking about think of cricketers as kaafirs as they miss their prayers. This Sajdah issue is not even worthy of criticism lol. It's so trivial even for them.

Also, many religious people want these players to stop doing Sajdah on the dirty pitch. Sajdah should only be done on a clean surface not a cricket pitch.

They are somewhat forced to do it yes but your claim that religious fanatics WANT them to do it is not true.

But, unfortunately they dictate our society and fundamentally the way of life for people in Pakistan.

There was a time when the head of TJ called cricket "shaytan", but funnily enough he now uses the team to gain clout, all because Inzy allowed this group to infiltrate the dressing room and change the culture of the team, during his playing days as captain. Ever since then, unfortunately the PCB have not taken a stand on this, when really they ought to ensure Pakistan cricket retraces its steps prior to the Inzy era (as captain), when the sport wasn't mixed with religion.

 

[topspin]

I have a problem with club grade cricketers attention seeking after scoring a 50 in a pointless bilateral.

Our culture has changed for the worse and it shows. We went from strong personalities and world class players to our current crop who will drop to the ground after scoring a run or taking a wicket.

Miandad, Ijaz, Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq, Zaheer, Inzamam in his younger days and so on and on. Take me back to this generation who knew they were equals without having to resort to religious overtures to hide their insecurities.

+1

I started watching the game during the 1999 WC as a kid and let me tell you, up until the 2003 WC, those were the best years to watch Pakistan cricket. Even though some of the players were in decline and the 2003 WC was a shambles (largely because of Waqar's captaincy), it made me appreciate what a bliss era the 90s was.

Once Inzy took over, everything went backwards. He has ensured there will be TJ XIs for generations to come.

 

[OmarKhan99]

Ahhh, the good ole days...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/1999/jun/27/cricket3

 

[topspin]

Ahhh, the good ole days...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/1999/jun/27/cricket3

Not a good example to use your sarcasm, when you consider this will probably be the last time we will ever witness Pakistan reach the WC final in our lives.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

+1

I started watching the game during the 1999 WC as a kid and let me tell you, up until the 2003 WC, those were the best years to watch Pakistan cricket. Even though some of the players were in decline and the 2003 WC was a shambles (largely because of Waqar's captaincy), it made me appreciate what a bliss era the 90s was.

Once Inzy took over, everything went backwards. He has ensured there will be TJ XIs for generations to come.

Its a sad sad decline of our cultural fabric. We use to present ourselves with a confident sensibility in front of the public whilst maintaing a spiritual dignity. Like everyone knew but it wasn't obvious. It was honorable and dignified.

Current generation are obnoxious and unfortunately supported by this new generation of have forgotten how we use to be and shaped this bizarre way of behaving in public.

 

[KingT]

Its a sad sad decline of our cultural fabric. We use to present ourselves with a confident sensibility in front of the public whilst maintaing a spiritual dignity. Like everyone knew but it wasn't obvious. It was honorable and dignified.

Current generation are obnoxious and unfortunately supported by this new generation of have forgotten how we use to be and shaped this bizarre way of behaving in public.

)

What's better - doing the sajdah or dancing around like an idiot (I.e. warner) after scoring a century?

I never see you criticise Warner's celebration or the wild celebrations the West Indies' players do. So why are you criticising this??

Oh I know, is it because this celebration involves religion so it must be bad?

The irony is that no commentator even realises that this "celebration" is the sajdah. They see it as the players kissing the ground. You're acting like they shout "Allah Hu Akbar" really loud or something lol

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

)

What's better - doing the sajdah or dancing around like an idiot (I.e. warner) after scoring a century?

I never see you criticise Warner's celebration or the wild celebrations the West Indies' players do. So why are you criticising this??

Oh I know, is it because this celebration involves religion so it must be bad?

The irony is that no commentator even realises that this "celebration" is the sajdah. They see it as the players kissing the ground. You're acting like they shout "Allah Hu Akbar" really loud or something lol

Dancing around to celebrate is neutral. Its okay to dance, there is nothing idiotic about it. It is relatable and all cultures can understand this behaviour.

It is sport, its okay to have fun. Its okay to build bonds on a neutral relatable basis. Thats the whole point of sport.

TJ really have done a number on our society. No coming back from this. Even Imran had to change his public persona just to make it into office. Corruption has many faces.

 

[Captain caveman]

I think there is a difference in doing it when you've won the effin WORLD CUP as opposed to doing it after scoring a fifty. Though, other than Babar, scoring a 50 for the current sorry lot must feel like winning a WC.

Who does it for scoring a fifty? Maybe the bowlers.
But they use to do it before the world cup win as well.

 

[KingT]

Dancing around to celebrate is neutral. Its okay to dance, there is nothing idiotic about it. It is relatable and all cultures can understand this behaviour.

It is sport, its okay to have fun. Its okay to build bonds on a neutral relatable basis. Thats the whole point of sport.

TJ really have done a number on our society. No coming back from this. Even Imran had to change his public persona just to make it into office. Corruption has many faces.

This whole country was built on the basis of religion.
We're the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan.
You must be delusional to think that Islam won't be involved in everything we do.

 

[MenInG]

Given our current state of batting and bowling, we can be rest assured that very little of such celebrations will be seen!

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

This whole country was built on the basis of religion.
We're the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan.
You must be delusional to think that Islam won't be involved in everything we do.

Really? Who would have thought.

Yes we all get it, you are Muslim but it has no place in a sporting event. Uncivilized uncouth current generation have no concept on how to behave in front of a world audience.

Give me 80s Imran anyday over this rabble. Give me 90s Afridi too.

 

[KingT]

Really? Who would have thought.

Yes we all get it, you are Muslim but it has no place in a sporting event. Uncivilized uncouth current generation have no concept on how to behave in front of a world audience.

Give me 80s Imran anyday over this rabble. Give me 90s Afridi too.

Oh so you'd rather have the womanisers of the '90s over this?
Wow you've integrated haven't you?

Your hate for religion is revolting.

Read my previous post.
It's not like they're shouting Allah Hu Akbar or something. They're just thanking God.
Messi does it. Criticise him as well.
You can't even differentiate between the Sajdah and kissing the ground so not many commenters themselves are aware that they're performing a religious ritual.

"How to behave in front of a world audience" )

 

[silentkiller187]

Dancing around to celebrate is neutral. Its okay to dance, there is nothing idiotic about it. It is relatable and all cultures can understand this behaviour.

It is sport, its okay to have fun. Its okay to build bonds on a neutral relatable basis. Thats the whole point of sport.

TJ really have done a number on our society. No coming back from this. Even Imran had to change his public persona just to make it into office. Corruption has many faces.

Are you saying it is ok to go against your religious beliefs and dance just to build bonds and appear neutral. again i do not understand how you would advocate dancing ahead of prostrating as a celebration. People were prostrating way before islam came into existence in various areas of society and people will continue to prostrate in various areas of society i.e. sport long into the future. I don't quite get the jist of your argument, because Sajda/prostration is part of our religion we should not practise it infront of non muslims, i am abit confused.

 

[Captain caveman]

Really? Who would have thought.

Yes we all get it, you are Muslim but it has no place in a sporting event. Uncivilized uncouth current generation have no concept on how to behave in front of a world audience.

Give me 80s Imran anyday over this rabble. Give me 90s Afridi too.

Whats with the inferior complex?
Even.messi does a cross on his chest after scoring.
I get it, its not your thing, its not mine either, but each to their own and dont be so small minded and worried what others think.


Small is the man who is ashamed to be who he is, on the account of other's negative perception!
Captain caveman

 

[silentkiller187]

Really? Who would have thought.

Yes we all get it, you are Muslim but it has no place in a sporting event. Uncivilized uncouth current generation have no concept on how to behave in front of a world audience.

Give me 80s Imran anyday over this rabble. Give me 90s Afridi too.

the 80's imran who regularly smoked weed and drank or the 90's wasim and ijaz who gambled and again drank and smoke, (i was lucky enough to know a friend who knew a friend who joined in) ahead of the kids of today who atleast like to set a small example by doing sajda whilst celebrating? lol

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Are you saying it is ok to go against your religious beliefs and dance just to build bonds and appear neutral. again i do not understand how you would advocate dancing ahead of prostrating as a celebration. People were prostrating way before islam came into existence in various areas of society and people will continue to prostrate in various areas of society i.e. sport long into the future. I don't quite get the jist of your argument, because Sajda/prostration is part of our religion we should not practise it infront of non muslims, i am abit confused.

If you think dancing is against any religion you have no business playing/watching international sport.

Practice it in a place of worship. Keep it away from sport.

Still remember poor old Youhana had to convert for his safety because TJ brigade Inzi were harassing him in the dressing room.

Give me a time machine I'm going back to the 60s.

 

[topspin]

Its a sad sad decline of our cultural fabric. We use to present ourselves with a confident sensibility in front of the public whilst maintaing a spiritual dignity. Like everyone knew but it wasn't obvious. It was honorable and dignified.

Current generation are obnoxious and unfortunately supported by this new generation of have forgotten how we use to be and shaped this bizarre way of behaving in public.

How anyone can prefer the last 15-16 years over the pre-Inzy captaincy era is beyond me.

 

[Abdullah719]

Oh so you'd rather have the womanisers of the '90s over this?
Wow you've integrated haven't you?

Your hate for religion is revolting.

Read my previous post.
It's not like they're shouting Allah Hu Akbar or something. They're just thanking God.
Messi does it. Criticise him as well.
You can't even differentiate between the Sajdah and kissing the ground so not many commenters themselves are aware that they're performing a religious ritual.

"How to behave in front of a world audience" )

Most Western commentators usually refer to it as kissing the ground.

 

[Abdullah719]

How anyone can prefer the last 15-16 years over the pre-Inzy captaincy era is beyond me.

The lack of super stars wasn't because in the 90s players didn't do sajda and now they do. There's a lot more to it.

What did we win from 1992 to 2009 anyway?

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

How anyone can prefer the last 15-16 years over the pre-Inzy captaincy era is beyond me.

How many stars have we produced since Inzi took over the dressing room and changed its culture?

ZERO

I bet this generation regard Imad Wasim as a star. Must be all the time they spend in the UAE.

 

[Abdullah719]

If you think dancing is against any religion you have no business playing/watching international sport.

Practice it in a place of worship. Keep it away from sport.

Still remember poor old Youhana had to convert for his safety because TJ brigade Inzi were harassing him in the dressing room.

Give me a time machine I'm going back to the 60s.

Got a reference for that or is it just conjecture... I've never seen anyone respond to 'harassment' in the way he did in 2006, if that's the case.

 

[topspin]

This whole country was built on the basis of religion.
We're the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan.
You must be delusional to think that Islam won't be involved in everything we do.

This is incorrect. Muhammad Ali Jinnah held secular values. Pakistan became an Islamic Republic in 1956, eight years after his death.

Mods, whilst I appreciate this is a subject for Time Pass, it would be a disservice to the forum for allowing such inaccuracies to be left unchallenged.

 

[topspin]

the 80's imran who regularly smoked weed and drank or the 90's wasim and ijaz who gambled and again drank and smoke, (i was lucky enough to know a friend who knew a friend who joined in) ahead of the kids of today who atleast like to set a small example by doing sajda whilst celebrating? lol

Even if all this is true at least they were successful cricketers. What they do in their spare time is none of our business.

It's sad to see you defame some of our legends like this, especially our greatest ever cricketer. I'm guessing you're accusing him of smoking weed based on what a butt hurt Younis Ahmed said right?

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Got a reference for that or is it just conjecture... I've never seen anyone respond to 'harassment' in the way he did in 2006, if that's the case.

Believe you me it was TTP golden days and Inzi took the bait. Yousuf was just protecting himself. Sad really how someone has to change so much just to gain acceptance. That too in a dressing room. The 2001-2010 era was a very dark era for us.

 

[KingT]

This is incorrect. Muhammad Ali Jinnah held secular values. Pakistan became an Islamic Republic in 1956, eight years after his death.

Mods, whilst I appreciate this is a subject for Time Pass, it would be a disservice to the forum for allowing such inaccuracies to be left unchallenged.

So you're saying that Pakistan wasn't created because the Indian muslims were oppressed?
Pakistan was made on the basis of religion. The muslims were oppressed so they made their own state

 

[KingT]

Most Western commentators usually refer to it as kissing the ground.

Exactly. This is the same point I mentioned in one of my previous posts as well.
Most commentators don't even know that the player was trying to perform a religious act. This shows how harmless the act is and it definitely doesn't make you look bad in front of the world audience

 

[topspin]

The lack of super stars wasn't because in the 90s players didn't do sajda and now they do. There's a lot more to it.

What did we win from 1992 to 2009 anyway?

I never insinuated that.

My issue is it's forced on the players, so they can gain approval in our society filled that is with ignorance and intolerance.

How do we know what they are doing is not by their own accord? Listen to the post-match presentations, you will hear almost every Pakistani recipient of the Man of The Match award precisely utter the following at the beginning of the awards ceremony: "bi-smi llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm, I want just say thank you to my to my dear Allah".

From the viewers perspective, it sounds robotic and as if they are following a script. But, we know this isn't the case. Rather, they are forced into saying it, just like they are forced to do the Sajda.

My problem with all this is, I want our players to be able to express themselves the way they want too rather than be told what to do. We will never be able to produce star quality otherwise.

If we want our top performing current players to inspire youngsters all over the world to emulate their success, they need to be able to express their personality, whether it be swagger, charisma and etc - you can only have that if you can be your true self.

From 1992 to 2009, we won the WC and the World T20. I don't have a problem with the teams of the 90s in this regard, my issue lies from the time when Inzy was made captain, when he allowed TJ to infiltrate the dressing room, who subsequently used their influence to enforce these changes. The problem is PCB have allowed this culture to remain in the dressing room, when we ought to retrace our steps prior to Inzy's days as captain because many people forget, he and TJ played their part with Pakistan's worst ever showing in a WC during the 2007 tournament.

 

[Shazzam]

what would you rather do see someone run around like a lunatic beating his chest, i.e. imran tahir, david warner, or someone just thanking God for his feat and doing a simple Sajda, neither is right or wrong but i no what i would rather do. the fat this debate has reached 5 pages says it all about this forum.

The first one you mentioned sounds more entertaining so yes I would rather pick that one. Cricket is entertainment so it should have over the top stuff to keep people entertained. Heck to me this is no different than fans celebrating a cricketer’s achievement. When your watching the game do you feel like doing sajda when a player reaches milestone or doing something crazy due to the emotions you feel?

 

[topspin]

How many stars have we produced since Inzi took over the dressing room and changed its culture?

ZERO

I bet this generation regard Imad Wasim as a star. Must be all the time they spend in the UAE.

Precisely, zero. This stems from the fact that none of our pacers have produced 200 test wickets since God knows when.

If they think Imad Wasim is a star then we are so doomed

 

[Abdullah719]

I never insinuated that.

My issue is it's forced on the players, so they can gain approval in our society filled that is with ignorance and intolerance.

How do we know what they are doing is not by their own accord? Listen to the post-match presentations, you will hear almost every Pakistani recipient of the Man of The Match award precisely utter the following at the beginning of the awards ceremony: "bi-smi llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm, I want just say thank you to my to my dear Allah".

From the viewers perspective, it sounds robotic and as if they are following a script. But, we know this isn't the case. Rather, they are forced into saying it, just like they are forced to do the Sajda.

My problem with all this is, I want our players to be able to express themselves the way they want too rather than be told what to do. We will never be able to produce star quality otherwise.

If we want our top performing current players to inspire youngsters all over the world to emulate their success, they need to be able to express their personality, whether it be swagger, charisma and etc - you can only have that if you can be your true self.

From 1992 to 2009, we won the WC and the World T20. I don't have a problem with the teams of the 90s in this regard, my issue lies from the time when Inzy was made captain, when he allowed TJ to infiltrate the dressing room, who subsequently used their influence to enforce these changes. The problem is PCB have allowed this culture to remain in the dressing room, when we ought to retrace our steps prior to Inzy's days as captain because many people forget, he and TJ played their part with Pakistan's worst ever showing in a WC during the 2007 tournament.

How do we know it's being forced (on the ones who do sajda)? I think it's simply a case of a trend that has caught on. I really doubt there is a discussion about this in the dressing room or ever amongst players in general. And I have never seen any criticism of someone like Younis Khan (who I don't think did the sajda frequently) for not doing it. Pictures of players doing the sajda etc. tend to go viral on social media but there is no counter effect if the player doesn't do a sajda.

I feel that we are trying too hard to find excuses here. Babar doesn't have 'swagger', neither is he a charismatic speaker but he is inspiring youngsters through his performances. Sajda or no sajda, "I want to thank Allah" or not, it doesn't matter. If you have high aspirations and you are a top performer, you can inspire people.

 

[Abdullah719]

Precisely, zero. This stems from the fact that none of our pacers have produced 200 test wickets since God knows when.

If they think Imad Wasim is a star then we are so doomed

The last Pakistani pacer to pick up 200 Test wickets debuted in 1989. Wayyy before the Inzi era.

Potentially the last guy who should have picked up 200+ Test wickets in Mohammad Asif was certainly not lost because he was too religious...

 

[topspin]

How do we know it's being forced (on the ones who do sajda)? I think it's simply a case of a trend that has caught on. I really doubt there is a discussion about this in the dressing room or ever amongst players in general. And I have never seen any criticism of someone like Younis Khan (who I don't think did the sajda frequently) for not doing it. Pictures of players doing the sajda etc. tend to go viral on social media but there is no counter effect if the player doesn't do a sajda.

I feel that we are trying too hard to find excuses here. Babar doesn't have 'swagger', neither is he a charismatic speaker but he is inspiring youngsters through his performances. Sajda or no sajda, "I want to thank Allah" or not, it doesn't matter. If you have high aspirations and you are a top performer, you can inspire people.

As I addressed in my last post, why does almost every player follow the same script? It's not just on the field but also during the post match awards ceremony. This is what I want to know.

I'm a big fan of Younis Khan and what I like about him, he knows that religion is a private matter and shouldn't be mixed in with their cricketing lives, so it comes to no surprise he wasn't happy with what Inzy was doing, as evident from the following:

Two of these players were Abdul Razzaq and Younis Khan. Though Younis was already a very religious man (who even fasted during matches), he did not appreciate the fact that the team was being asked to openly exhibit its new-found religiosity.

In an interview that he gave to the Pakistan English daily, The News, in early 2009 when he became captain, he said: ‘What this (show of religiosity) did was that it made most players very introverted. They stopped going out and socialise; they also stopped interacting with other teams.’


https://www.dawn.com/news/1018005

It's worth pointing out that nothing has changed since then as our players still to this day don't socialise with opposition team like the way they used too.

It's a real shame we cannot address the root of the problem here. Inzy gave TJ a freehand to do what TJ always do, brainwash people for clout.

No it hasn't become a trend among the players, rather we have carried seniors (like Hafeez, Malik and etc) and ex-players from Inzy's era in the Management team who have allowed this trend to continue.

Everyone knows Inzy (when he was still CS) was responsible for forcing the players to meet up with TJ prior to the WC, earlier this year. Do you remember the outrage towards Inzy from the vast majority of those who commented on that thread?

But what do I know, I guess I'm "trying too hard to find excuses here".

 

[topspin]

The last Pakistani pacer to pick up 200 Test wickets debuted in 1989. Wayyy before the Inzi era.

Potentially the last guy who should have picked up 200+ Test wickets in Mohammad Asif was certainly not lost because he was too religious...

In the 90s, our main pacers were Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib. Whilst the latter missed out on 200 wickets for reasons I'd classify as "self-inflicted", it was much tougher for a bowler debuting in the 90s to accomplish the specified feat for the following reasons:

1. Wasim Akram and Waqar were the 2 main strike bowlers who played throughout the decade
2. Pakistan were playing on average 5 tests a year in the 90s
3. New bowlers were also compounded by the fact that they were bowling on the flattest wickets on Earth

Now when Wasim and Waqar retired after the 2003 WC, Inzy took over the reigns, he changed the culture of the dressing room, which has undoubtedly in part affected Pakistan's ability to produce a pace bowler who has the skills and the longevity to pick up 200 wickets.

 

[OmarKhan99]

At the crux of it, the argument now is not whether players should do the Sajdah or not after celebration, but rather if they should practise Islam at all in public in order to assimilate. It's clear that this stems from an inferiority complex and the desperation of external validation. Here's my attempt at unpacking it all.

First of all, I have no idea how someone could actually say they would rather see someone go against their nature and dance on the field or thump their chest for viewers' 'entertainment' than just do a humble Sajdah. As [MENTION=151706]KingT[/MENTION] pointed out, wouldn't you be okay if the player kissed the ground (not too dissimilar to the Sajdah in action)? Just because the Sajdah has a religious implication, you would call that attention seeking and disingenuous? So, simply, are you against all actions that have any sort of religous implications or just the Islamic ones? If you advocate a case about how someone else should celebrate their achievement and what certain things he shouldn't do, then you must present argument of why it's bad and can't just say 'becasue I don't like it'. I hope people realise how outright absurd their argument sounds.

Even if it is a trend that is exclusive to Pakistani players (it's not), we shouldn't require anyone's sign of approval or validation to do it. We don't need to shy away from what we believe. Even if we are looking for validation (which we shouldn't), the All Blacks are a great example. Don't see them go like "Ahhh you know what, no other team does a traditional challenge dance before the game in front of the public and the opposition, and lwe shouldn't be not mixing culture and sport. Thus, next match we'll do the Haka infront of the mirrors in locker rooms to hype ourselves up." They are proud of it, and we are too.

Another thing, is the ridiculous 'swagger' argument. First of all correlation isn't causation. Just because our curren players don't publically stoop into activities that aren't befitting a Pakistani sporting role model in the nights before one of the most important games of their lives (Btw, breaking curfew rules isn't personal stuff, you're employee at that point and must obey the rules. Can do whatever you want off season and no one has issues) doesn't mean they are aren't as good because of it. Would you say that our players can't be excellent while also doing the Sajdah? Or that they only become good after acting like the players in the 90s? If not, then what exactly is your particular issue with the Sajdah? Also, how do you know that they're not being genuine? Because they're saying stuff you don't like? The same argument could be flipped and I could say that our player's of the 90s did the stuff they did because it grabbed headlines, gave them a certain image and they wanted to be accepted in the Western wolrd. If I can't make that counter-argument then why can you make your argument in the first place?

Every team goes through phases. West Indies, Sri Lanka, and South Africa aren't as good they used to be either. Is that because of them being more religious? The common factor in all the countries is that there was inept management at the helm and corruption spread across the system.

Coming onto the inferiority complex bit, I think that's quite obvious after what was said about Imran Khan earlier. First of all, Imran Khan isn't perfect, no one is. Not everything he does or opted not to do was correct or a good example. That's the inherrent problem with some of our people, we tend to dwell in a black and white world where either someone is all good or just all bad, either we're the best team in the universe or just the worst to ever play the game. There's no middle ground. I think IK himself has accepted what he did in the past, wasn't the best and so it's fruitless for us to argue over what he himself identified as incorrect and naive behaviour. Now you can accuse him of being disingenuous to appease a certain faction, and I'd have to concede to your extensive mind reading abilities. But the reason I bring up IK is, because he was brought into the argument not only because he was an excellent player (Hanif Mohammad, Javed Miandad, Zaheer Abbas etc were as well), but because he was most accepted in the Western society and hence, what he chose to do and not to do must have been the correct thing and that's what our youngsters should mould themselves into. Also, how dare the people of Pakistan make IK change his lifestyle from doing what he was doing back in the 80s, and force him to build a Cancer hospital, lead a simple life, and now forcing him to lead the country justly, morally and Islamically. It's not possible that IK did it himself, he must've been forced by some certain people, right?

All these arguments just reek of an inferior mindset.

 

[lifecric7]

It’s a personal choice of each player about how they want to celebrate.. who cares.

 

[KingT]

At the crux of it, the argument now is not whether players should do the Sajdah or not after celebration, but rather if they should practise Islam at all in public in order to assimilate. It's clear that this stems from an inferiority complex and the desperation of external validation. Here's my attempt at unpacking it all.

First of all, I have no idea how someone could actually say they would rather see someone go against their nature and dance on the field or thump their chest for viewers' 'entertainment' than just do a humble Sajdah. As [MENTION=151706]KingT[/MENTION] pointed out, wouldn't you be okay if the player kissed the ground (not too dissimilar to the Sajdah in action)? Just because the Sajdah has a religious implication, you would call that attention seeking and disingenuous? So, simply, are you against all actions that have any sort of religous implications or just the Islamic ones? If you advocate a case about how someone else should celebrate their achievement and what certain things he shouldn't do, then you must present argument of why it's bad and can't just say 'becasue I don't like it'. I hope people realise how outright absurd their argument sounds.

Even if it is a trend that is exclusive to Pakistani players (it's not), we shouldn't require anyone's sign of approval or validation to do it. We don't need to shy away from what we believe. Even if we are looking for validation (which we shouldn't), the All Blacks are a great example. Don't see them go like "Ahhh you know what, no other team does a traditional challenge dance before the game in front of the public and the opposition, and lwe shouldn't be not mixing culture and sport. Thus, next match we'll do the Haka infront of the mirrors in locker rooms to hype ourselves up." They are proud of it, and we are too.

Another thing, is the ridiculous 'swagger' argument. First of all correlation isn't causation. Just because our curren players don't publically stoop into activities that aren't befitting a Pakistani sporting role model in the nights before one of the most important games of their lives (Btw, breaking curfew rules isn't personal stuff, you're employee at that point and must obey the rules. Can do whatever you want off season and no one has issues) doesn't mean they are aren't as good because of it. Would you say that our players can't be excellent while also doing the Sajdah? Or that they only become good after acting like the players in the 90s? If not, then what exactly is your particular issue with the Sajdah? Also, how do you know that they're not being genuine? Because they're saying stuff you don't like? The same argument could be flipped and I could say that our player's of the 90s did the stuff they did because it grabbed headlines, gave them a certain image and they wanted to be accepted in the Western wolrd. If I can't make that counter-argument then why can you make your argument in the first place?

Every team goes through phases. West Indies, Sri Lanka, and South Africa aren't as good they used to be either. Is that because of them being more religious? The common factor in all the countries is that there was inept management at the helm and corruption spread across the system.

Coming onto the inferiority complex bit, I think that's quite obvious after what was said about Imran Khan earlier. First of all, Imran Khan isn't perfect, no one is. Not everything he does or opted not to do was correct or a good example. That's the inherrent problem with some of our people, we tend to dwell in a black and white world where either someone is all good or just all bad, either we're the best team in the universe or just the worst to ever play the game. There's no middle ground. I think IK himself has accepted what he did in the past, wasn't the best and so it's fruitless for us to argue over what he himself identified as incorrect and naive behaviour. Now you can accuse him of being disingenuous to appease a certain faction, and I'd have to concede to your extensive mind reading abilities. But the reason I bring up IK is, because he was brought into the argument not only because he was an excellent player (Hanif Mohammad, Javed Miandad, Zaheer Abbas etc were as well), but because he was most accepted in the Western society and hence, what he chose to do and not to do must have been the correct thing and that's what our youngsters should mould themselves into. Also, how dare the people of Pakistan make IK change his lifestyle from doing what he was doing back in the 80s, and force him to build a Cancer hospital, lead a simple life, and now forcing him to lead the country justly, morally and Islamically. It's not possible that IK did it himself, he must've been forced by some certain people, right?

All these arguments just reek of an inferior mindset.

Great Post.

POTW for me

 

[Boi]

Believe you me it was TTP golden days and Inzi took the bait. Yousuf was just protecting himself. Sad really how someone has to change so much just to gain acceptance. That too in a dressing room. The 2001-2010 era was a very dark era for us.

Why didnt Danish Kaneria convert then? Surely a Hindu in such an environment would also have felt under threat? Instead Kaneria was a pretty integral part of the squads under Inzi’s reign.
You’re just accusing without any proof pal

 

[silentkiller187]

At the crux of it, the argument now is not whether players should do the Sajdah or not after celebration, but rather if they should practise Islam at all in public in order to assimilate. It's clear that this stems from an inferiority complex and the desperation of external validation. Here's my attempt at unpacking it all.

First of all, I have no idea how someone could actually say they would rather see someone go against their nature and dance on the field or thump their chest for viewers' 'entertainment' than just do a humble Sajdah. As [MENTION=151706]KingT[/MENTION] pointed out, wouldn't you be okay if the player kissed the ground (not too dissimilar to the Sajdah in action)? Just because the Sajdah has a religious implication, you would call that attention seeking and disingenuous? So, simply, are you against all actions that have any sort of religous implications or just the Islamic ones? If you advocate a case about how someone else should celebrate their achievement and what certain things he shouldn't do, then you must present argument of why it's bad and can't just say 'becasue I don't like it'. I hope people realise how outright absurd their argument sounds.

Even if it is a trend that is exclusive to Pakistani players (it's not), we shouldn't require anyone's sign of approval or validation to do it. We don't need to shy away from what we believe. Even if we are looking for validation (which we shouldn't), the All Blacks are a great example. Don't see them go like "Ahhh you know what, no other team does a traditional challenge dance before the game in front of the public and the opposition, and lwe shouldn't be not mixing culture and sport. Thus, next match we'll do the Haka infront of the mirrors in locker rooms to hype ourselves up." They are proud of it, and we are too.

Another thing, is the ridiculous 'swagger' argument. First of all correlation isn't causation. Just because our curren players don't publically stoop into activities that aren't befitting a Pakistani sporting role model in the nights before one of the most important games of their lives (Btw, breaking curfew rules isn't personal stuff, you're employee at that point and must obey the rules. Can do whatever you want off season and no one has issues) doesn't mean they are aren't as good because of it. Would you say that our players can't be excellent while also doing the Sajdah? Or that they only become good after acting like the players in the 90s? If not, then what exactly is your particular issue with the Sajdah? Also, how do you know that they're not being genuine? Because they're saying stuff you don't like? The same argument could be flipped and I could say that our player's of the 90s did the stuff they did because it grabbed headlines, gave them a certain image and they wanted to be accepted in the Western wolrd. If I can't make that counter-argument then why can you make your argument in the first place?

Every team goes through phases. West Indies, Sri Lanka, and South Africa aren't as good they used to be either. Is that because of them being more religious? The common factor in all the countries is that there was inept management at the helm and corruption spread across the system.

Coming onto the inferiority complex bit, I think that's quite obvious after what was said about Imran Khan earlier. First of all, Imran Khan isn't perfect, no one is. Not everything he does or opted not to do was correct or a good example. That's the inherrent problem with some of our people, we tend to dwell in a black and white world where either someone is all good or just all bad, either we're the best team in the universe or just the worst to ever play the game. There's no middle ground. I think IK himself has accepted what he did in the past, wasn't the best and so it's fruitless for us to argue over what he himself identified as incorrect and naive behaviour. Now you can accuse him of being disingenuous to appease a certain faction, and I'd have to concede to your extensive mind reading abilities. But the reason I bring up IK is, because he was brought into the argument not only because he was an excellent player (Hanif Mohammad, Javed Miandad, Zaheer Abbas etc were as well), but because he was most accepted in the Western society and hence, what he chose to do and not to do must have been the correct thing and that's what our youngsters should mould themselves into. Also, how dare the people of Pakistan make IK change his lifestyle from doing what he was doing back in the 80s, and force him to build a Cancer hospital, lead a simple life, and now forcing him to lead the country justly, morally and Islamically. It's not possible that IK did it himself, he must've been forced by some certain people, right?

All these arguments just reek of an inferior mindset.

Spot on.

 

[silentkiller187]

If you think dancing is against any religion you have no business playing/watching international sport.

Practice it in a place of worship. Keep it away from sport.

Still remember poor old Youhana had to convert for his safety because TJ brigade Inzi were harassing him in the dressing room.

Give me a time machine I'm going back to the 60s.

I don't see the correlation in me thinking dancing goes against some religious beliefs and watching international sport but music is technically haram so do the maths, i am by no means claiming i am religious, the point i am trying to make is religion is part of someones faith, no one can prove religion exists or does not exist it is all down to the faith you have, if i play sport and i make a dua before i come out and play and then make a century i am perfectly entitled to do a sajda as a form of thanks/praise to my god. why should you dictate what a man can or can't do ,you cannot say do not mix religion and sport everyone has a right to their own views and should never be judged especially by another mortal.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

I don't see the correlation in me thinking dancing goes against some religious beliefs and watching international sport but music is technically haram so do the maths, i am by no means claiming i am religious, the point i am trying to make is religion is part of someones faith, no one can prove religion exists or does not exist it is all down to the faith you have, if i play sport and i make a dua before i come out and play and then make a century i am perfectly entitled to do a sajda as a form of thanks/praise to my god. why should you dictate what a man can or can't do ,you cannot say do not mix religion and sport everyone has a right to their own views and should never be judged especially by another mortal.

There is no right or wrong. On a human interaction level it is obnoxious and strange and always will be.

Such outward displays of religiousity especially in the public eye of a cricket match harks of lacking subtlety and decency. Like you said its okay to do small subtle acts of gratitude, I do it all the time. But don't drop to the floor at every opportunity in front of everyone.

It never used to be our way of behaving but it is now and its just a small example of how our society has become so insular and insecure. I call it the monkification of society.

 

[Abdullah719]

As I addressed in my last post, why does almost every player follow the same script? It's not just on the field but also during the post match awards ceremony. This is what I want to know.

I'm a big fan of Younis Khan and what I like about him, he knows that religion is a private matter and shouldn't be mixed in with their cricketing lives, so it comes to no surprise he wasn't happy with what Inzy was doing, as evident from the following:

Two of these players were Abdul Razzaq and Younis Khan. Though Younis was already a very religious man (who even fasted during matches), he did not appreciate the fact that the team was being asked to openly exhibit its new-found religiosity.

In an interview that he gave to the Pakistan English daily, The News, in early 2009 when he became captain, he said: ‘What this (show of religiosity) did was that it made most players very introverted. They stopped going out and socialise; they also stopped interacting with other teams.’


https://www.dawn.com/news/1018005

It's worth pointing out that nothing has changed since then as our players still to this day don't socialise with opposition team like the way they used too.

It's a real shame we cannot address the root of the problem here. Inzy gave TJ a freehand to do what TJ always do, brainwash people for clout.

No it hasn't become a trend among the players, rather we have carried seniors (like Hafeez, Malik and etc) and ex-players from Inzy's era in the Management team who have allowed this trend to continue.

Everyone knows Inzy (when he was still CS) was responsible for forcing the players to meet up with TJ prior to the WC, earlier this year. Do you remember the outrage towards Inzy from the vast majority of those who commented on that thread?

But what do I know, I guess I'm "trying too hard to find excuses here".

I am aware of how the Tableeghi Jamaat functions, having interacted with them on a couple of occasions and the Inzi era may have resulted in the TJ having some influence over the team. My point was more in relation to the point of view that this 'imposed religiosity' has resulted in the current Pakistan team being unable to produce stars, 12 years after Inzi retired.

Since then, we have had the likes of Malik, Younis, Butt, Afridi, Misbah, Sarfaraz, Azhar etc. as captains. Are you telling me that this 'influence' is still in the dressing room and if so, who is responsible for it? Hafeez and Malik? I don't see them having affiliation with the TJ or promoting outward religiosity. Both of them don't present themselves as overly religious persons, anyway.

Let's closely inspect some of the cases of players who didn't fulfil their potential in the post Inzi era.

Mohammad Asif - One of the best Test bowlers Pakistan has ever produced. Got involved with fixing, drugs etc. which cut short his career.

Mohammad Amir - So much potential when he debuted. Got involved in spot-fixing, got banned, returned, did well in patches, called it a day from Test cricket at the age of 27.

Umar Akmal - Considered the next big thing when he began his career, started with a bang, eventually fell away. Poor fitness and lack of intelligence were the main reasons behind his downfall. Still has time to turn it around.

Haris Sohail - Missed out at a crucial stage of his career where he should have been one of the lynch-pins of the middle-order, because Misbah and Younis played till 2017 and we invested in Asad Shafiq as a middle-order bat. Still can have a respectable career, but won't end up as a superstar.

Then we have players like Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq etc. who simply never had the mindset to end up like a Younis Khan, who made the most of his limited talent.

In all these cases in the post-Inzi era, I don't see religion playing a part in their lack of success.

Now like I already mentioned, Babar is the only one of the current players who looks like he could end up as an actual star who players will look up to. Both because of his natural ability, and him being able to convert that into performances. He does sajdas (not all the time, I believe), doesn't wear chains or have 'swagger' and he isn't particularly charismatic either.

On the topic of pacers - I think Pakistan's lack of stars is due to many reasons: Firstly, the changes in domestic cricket in the early 2000s which resulted in the pitches we see around the country today, which have for the past 15 years or so seen medium pacers ruling the roost. As a result, very few of the pacers who came through after that were genuine world-class prospects. Mohammad Sami was considered one, but he was brainless and had little control while the cases of Asif and Amir have been mentioned above. Others, ranging from the Umar Guls to the Sohail Khans were never going to be world class in all formats, 100 sajdas or 0 sajdas. There are a few other reasons, but I don't think religiosity was the thing holding any of them back.

The point about excuses was that the importance of sajdas and associated religious acts is being overblown in this context. Since Pakistan has gone through a phase where a lack of stars have come through, the two things are being unnecessarily convoluted.

 

[aukhan]

It started due to Tableeghi influence and Pakistan's downward spiral started just around that time.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

https://youtu.be/Clo2SVOtyKg

How many beards do you see in this video?

Talibanization of our society has damaged our fabric.

These strong personalities, confident, well put together, world class performers is what we produced by default.

This is why the middle east are unable to do anything significant in sport. Its that underlying value system society has which produces sporting excellence. This sajdah example is just a by product of the root of our value system which is why we have been unable to recreate a team like in the video.

Perhaps Inzamam wasn't at fault, it was society in general but the impact is clear to see.

We can reverse this but it will take a generation and then we have to face resistance from TJ type people who are enjoying their new found relevance. Influence is like a drug they will not let go easily.

 

[MenInG]

https://youtu.be/Clo2SVOtyKg

How many beards do you see in this video?

Talibanization of our society has damaged our fabric.

These strong personalities, confident, well put together, world class performers is what we produced by default.

This is why the middle east are unable to do anything significant in sport. Its that underlying value system society has which produces sporting excellence. This sajdah example is just a by product of the root of our value system which is why we have been unable to recreate a team like in the video.

Perhaps Inzamam wasn't at fault, it was society in general but the impact is clear to see.

We can reverse this but it will take a generation and then we have to face resistance from TJ type people who are enjoying their new found relevance. Influence is like a drug they will not let go easily.

Middle Eastern football teams are far ahead of Pakistan, Mohamad Saleh is from Egypt, he does Sajdah all the time.

 

[silentkiller187]

https://youtu.be/Clo2SVOtyKg

How many beards do you see in this video?

Talibanization of our society has damaged our fabric.

These strong personalities, confident, well put together, world class performers is what we produced by default.

This is why the middle east are unable to do anything significant in sport. Its that underlying value system society has which produces sporting excellence. This sajdah example is just a by product of the root of our value system which is why we have been unable to recreate a team like in the video.

Perhaps Inzamam wasn't at fault, it was society in general but the impact is clear to see.

We can reverse this but it will take a generation and then we have to face resistance from TJ type people who are enjoying their new found relevance. Influence is like a drug they will not let go easily.

Beards in general are back in fashion, even in the west, compare how many beards you see amongst the western teams now compared to the 90's and you will see a similar trend, again nonsense statement, Mo Salah does the sajda, Sadio Mane does the Sajda, Pogba will recite a dua infront of the cameras, aswell as Mesut Ozil, thats just a few examples of top class sportsmen mixing religion and sport, they are far superior in terms of stages in their career compared to our pak stars, what do you think is the cause for this, ISIS-ization of their society? your talking nonsense i am afraid your whole arguement about religion and sport is invalid, TJ mixing with our pakistani players is something completely different. I am not sure what you ar advocating here, do you want our youngsters to neglect religion so they can excel in sport?

 

[topspin]

I am aware of how the Tableeghi Jamaat functions, having interacted with them on a couple of occasions and the Inzi era may have resulted in the TJ having some influence over the team. My point was more in relation to the point of view that this 'imposed religiosity' has resulted in the current Pakistan team being unable to produce stars, 12 years after Inzi retired.

Since then, we have had the likes of Malik, Younis, Butt, Afridi, Misbah, Sarfaraz, Azhar etc. as captains. Are you telling me that this 'influence' is still in the dressing room and if so, who is responsible for it? Hafeez and Malik? I don't see them having affiliation with the TJ or promoting outward religiosity. Both of them don't present themselves as overly religious persons, anyway.

Let's closely inspect some of the cases of players who didn't fulfil their potential in the post Inzi era.

Mohammad Asif - One of the best Test bowlers Pakistan has ever produced. Got involved with fixing, drugs etc. which cut short his career.

Mohammad Amir - So much potential when he debuted. Got involved in spot-fixing, got banned, returned, did well in patches, called it a day from Test cricket at the age of 27.

Umar Akmal - Considered the next big thing when he began his career, started with a bang, eventually fell away. Poor fitness and lack of intelligence were the main reasons behind his downfall. Still has time to turn it around.

Haris Sohail - Missed out at a crucial stage of his career where he should have been one of the lynch-pins of the middle-order, because Misbah and Younis played till 2017 and we invested in Asad Shafiq as a middle-order bat. Still can have a respectable career, but won't end up as a superstar.

Then we have players like Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq etc. who simply never had the mindset to end up like a Younis Khan, who made the most of his limited talent.

In all these cases in the post-Inzi era, I don't see religion playing a part in their lack of success.

Now like I already mentioned, Babar is the only one of the current players who looks like he could end up as an actual star who players will look up to. Both because of his natural ability, and him being able to convert that into performances. He does sajdas (not all the time, I believe), doesn't wear chains or have 'swagger' and he isn't particularly charismatic either.

On the topic of pacers - I think Pakistan's lack of stars is due to many reasons: Firstly, the changes in domestic cricket in the early 2000s which resulted in the pitches we see around the country today, which have for the past 15 years or so seen medium pacers ruling the roost. As a result, very few of the pacers who came through after that were genuine world-class prospects. Mohammad Sami was considered one, but he was brainless and had little control while the cases of Asif and Amir have been mentioned above. Others, ranging from the Umar Guls to the Sohail Khans were never going to be world class in all formats, 100 sajdas or 0 sajdas. There are a few other reasons, but I don't think religiosity was the thing holding any of them back.

The point about excuses was that the importance of sajdas and associated religious acts is being overblown in this context. Since Pakistan has gone through a phase where a lack of stars have come through, the two things are being unnecessarily convoluted.

I have no problem with the sajda, as long as the intentions are pure i.e. not for the sake of showing off or used as a means of seeking approval. Also, players should refrain from doing it in reflection of accomplishing minor milestones, as Usman Salahuddin did after in 2018 after reaching 50 during a warm-up match in England prior to the two test match series. I have no issue of Salah doing it because I know he is doing it of his own accord, merely to thank God.

The way I see our cricket decline immensely since the 90s/early 2000s, it is no coincidence this began in the Inzy era. This is when the players were forced to adopt religious practices and unite via Islam, which subsequently led to a decline into the standards of the dressing room environment and the personality of our players. All thanks to Inzy for allowing the Tableeghi Jamat to infiltrate Pakistan cricket. For instance, when you look at how they brainwashed Saeed Anwar, it sets a bad precedent for all current and upcoming cricketers in the country.

Once Inzy had retired in 2007, one would have hoped this would be the end of a dark chapter in Pakistan cricket, however the PCB have not done the surgery required to remove the tumour of the system.

Lets not get it twisted, I did not suggest Pakistan's decline is solely as a result of imposing religion. There are other factors, which I have covered on here in the past:

1. Firstly, there is a need to diversify where the talent is sourced from because the current crop of players are from poorly educated backgrounds, who do not know how to handle the limelight and initial success, because they let it get to their heads. Hasan Ali is a prime example of this following his heroics in the 2017 CT. Unfortunately, with this mentality they become content with what turns out to be a short lived success, because there is no desire to leave a legacy for the next generation of cricketers to aspire too.

The other fundamental problem with Pakistan cricket is their deficient cricket structure, which is very much evident from the poor standard of domestic cricket, played on perhaps the worst pitches found in world cricket.

I agree that the fixing scandals have dented the progression of our cricket, but overhauling domestic cricket and diversifying the source of talent pool will not be enough, if our players cannot be themselves.

 

[MenInG]

I have no problem with the sajda, as long as the intentions are pure i.e. not for the sake of showing off or used as a means of seeking approval. Also, players should refrain from doing it in reflection of accomplishing minor milestones, as Usman Salahuddin did after in 2018 after reaching 50 during a warm-up match in England prior to the two test match series. I have no issue of Salah doing it because I know he is doing it of his own accord, merely to thank God.

The way I see our cricket decline immensely since the 90s/early 2000s, it is no coincidence this began in the Inzy era. This is when the players were forced to adopt religious practices and unite via Islam, which subsequently led to a decline into the standards of the dressing room environment and the personality of our players. All thanks to Inzy for allowing the Tableeghi Jamat to infiltrate Pakistan cricket. For instance, when you look at how they brainwashed Saeed Anwar, it sets a bad precedent for all current and upcoming cricketers in the country.

Once Inzy had retired in 2007, one would have hoped this would be the end of a dark chapter in Pakistan cricket, however the PCB have not done the surgery required to remove the tumour of the system.

Lets not get it twisted, I did not suggest Pakistan's decline is solely as a result of imposing religion. There are other factors, which I have covered on here in the past:

1. Firstly, there is a need to diversify where the talent is sourced from because the current crop of players are from poorly educated backgrounds, who do not know how to handle the limelight and initial success, because they let it get to their heads. Hasan Ali is a prime example of this following his heroics in the 2017 CT. Unfortunately, with this mentality they become content with what turns out to be a short lived success, because there is no desire to leave a legacy for the next generation of cricketers to aspire too.

The other fundamental problem with Pakistan cricket is their deficient cricket structure, which is very much evident from the poor standard of domestic cricket, played on perhaps the worst pitches found in world cricket.

I agree that the fixing scandals have dented the progression of our cricket, but overhauling domestic cricket and diversifying the source of talent pool will not be enough, if our players cannot be themselves.

Who are you to question anyone's true intentions? Have they ever said that it was the case? Bit too much reading into a very normal part of Muslim lives.

 

[topspin]

Who are you to question anyone's true intentions? Have they ever said that it was the case? Bit too much reading into a very normal part of Muslim lives.

Perhaps you should ask this question to Younis Khan.

Two of these players were Abdul Razzaq and Younis Khan. Though Younis was already a very religious man (who even fasted during matches), he did not appreciate the fact that the team was being asked to openly exhibit its new-found religiosity.

In an interview that he gave to the Pakistan English daily, The News, in early 2009 when he became captain, he said: ‘What this (show of religiosity) did was that it made most players very introverted. They stopped going out and socialise; they also stopped interacting with other teams.’

https://www.dawn.com/news/1018005

 

[Jabo]

Because they are sheeps

If one didn't do it
All hell would kick off backstage

Raise your bat move on
The pak players are just weird, one may not be religious but does it because of his peers

 

[Shazzam]

Because they are sheeps

If one didn't do it
All hell would kick off backstage

Raise your bat move on
The pak players are just weird, one may not be religious but does it because of his peers

They lack character for this very reason.

 

[Saj]

Each to their own.

I guess the question now is, if a player doesn't do it after reaching 100, questions would be asked of him.

 

[Abdullah476]

Nothing wrong with this

 

[MenInG]

So in some people's pov = now another Muslim joins the bandwagon...

 

[Slog]

Some people in the crowd behind me yesterday were not happy than Shan didn’t do sajdah upon century

 

[Ronaldo7]

So now another Muslim joins the bandwagon...

He pressurised him this time??

Was it David Hussey?

 

[Ronaldo7]

Some people in the crowd behind me yesterday were not happy than Shan didn’t do sajdah upon century

Should've told them that doing a Sajdah on a dirty ground when you don't even know in which direction the Kaaba is, is not useful.

 

[Ronaldo7]

I don't understand the point of doing the Sajdah during the match because it defeats the purpose.

You missed out on your prayers because of the match and you think ALLAH will accept your Sajdah? Smh

 

[Mean&Green]

Should've told them that doing a Sajdah on a dirty ground when you don't even know in which direction the Kaaba is, is not useful.

Soil is pure and it can be prayed upon first of all second the direction it’s just a way of thanking your lord so it doesn’t matter what direction the niyat(intention) counts. I know it doesn’t matter to you guys but it’s honestly a personal choice and between the ones doing it and Allah so instead of judging them over a non issue which has zero impact on the game or performance let’s focus on better things

 

[DrSchultz]

I think Younis Khan rarely did sajdas too.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Soil is pure and it can be prayed upon first of all second the direction it’s just a way of thanking your lord so it doesn’t matter what direction the niyat(intention) counts. I know it doesn’t matter to you guys but it’s honestly a personal choice and between the ones doing it and Allah so instead of judging them over a non issue which has zero impact on the game or performance let’s focus on better things

Judging? Lol

I'm probably one of the few people on this forum who have supported this.

Most people here see it as being "too religious". I'm actually fine with that and I've even told other people that it's not a big deal and not to make it into one.

So instead of tagging me (a person who agrees with doing this but see it contradicting if done without praying), tag someone like Flat Track Bully and change his opinion

 

[Mean&Green]

Judging? Lol

I'm probably one of the few people on this forum who have supported this.

Most people here see it as being "too religious". I'm actually fine with that and I've even told other people that it's not a big deal and not to make it into one.

So instead of tagging me (a person who agrees with doing this but see it contradicting if done without praying), tag someone like Flat Track Bully and change his opinion

Well ok my bad than from your post it looked like you were judging anyways the other poster you mentioned I’m not a member of tablighi jamaat or giving any fatwas here but if you are a Muslim and have a issue against this you clearly need to rethink your religious beliefs.

 

[MenInG]

And one from Shan to thank the Almighty

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Some people in the crowd behind me yesterday were not happy than Shan didn’t do sajdah upon century

Hopefully they are happy now.

 

[MenInG]

Azhar Ali's sajda

 

[Bhaijaan]

Azhar Ali's sajda

It's a muslim ritual that shouldn't be disrespected. To each their own. Hindus look up towards heavens and chant their mantras, Christians do their cross gesture. To each their own.

 

[tyron_woodley]

hey do what you want. just perform. well done azhar

 

[topspin]

As I've mentioned before, I have no issue with the sajda if our players are doing it by their own accord. But when it is forced upon them that's when it's clear for everyone to see that the stain of Inzy's era is still very much prevalent in the team.

Not so long ago, a poster mentioned that Shan Masood's sujda looked forced upon him. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who spotted this.