Sachin Tendulkar vs AB de Villiers - The overall complete batsman?

[Anfield]

I am pretty sure that Anfield was not using age for any excuse and simply explaining that debuting early means you have played too much cricket till you reach your 30s. 30 is kind of peak for most batsmen. Playing that volume of cricket can burn you and that may be a reason for SRT to not sustain his peak past 30.

This is based on some earlier conversation with him. [MENTION=51763]Anfield[/MENTION] can correct me if I am wrong here.

Precisely what I meant. Started earlier so he peaked earlier unlike most batsmen who peak around 30 yrs of age. I can see why would anyone even think that starting off early cold be taken negatively.

 

[Thivagar]

ABD needs to do what he is doing for another 7-8 years. ABD can crash out any time. Sachin was good for a very long time.

 

[Thivagar]

AB is greater batsman than sachin. Sachin was a selfish player--who used to go after record, thats why most of his century is in the losing side. AB is a great match winner.

I don't think Sachin was selfish but he cared lot about 50s and 100s. It was very evident in his auto-biography. Same goes to Lara, watch some of his interviews and one of his documentary, he cares too much about his milestones.

 

[WrexEverything]

There is a small streak of selfishness that is required by batsman to be the best. This doesn't mean their own selfish interests are above the team, no way. But their ruthlessness in getting runs no matter what the situation of the match, is a key attribute of them being as great as they are. Sachin, Lara, Chappell, have all admitted at different times that they care greatly about their statistics, and for good reason. You have to be ruthlessly efficient to be great.

 

[as-95]

Another Man of the Match performance from this superb player. Becomes the fastest player to score 8000 ODI runs.Absolute clutch player and Sachin wishes he was able to turn matches on their head like AB as opposed to just accumulating runs slowly. AB is a superior ODI player to Sachin and he could overtake him in Tests too once he retires.

 

[as-95]

Bump for people in Pakistan who are 4 hours ahead of me.

 

[anuk]

ab is definitely more skilled. the most skilled since viv imo. tendulkar was a great grafter of runs that wore oppositions down. this is the reason that tendulkar has a slightly better record in tests than ab atm. but if ab can sort out his over-confidence issues he can definitely enter the league of sobers, viv, hobbs.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

AB - the most talented batsman I've seen - moreso than Lara and Ponting. But chokes like a typical Saffer so its hard to rate him in ODIs .

 

[Scrolln]

AB is ahead of SRT in ODI's at the moment, behind in tests.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

ABD can end up ahead of SRT in ODIs but I sense a bit of desperation and jealousy by others.

If you have to resort to constantly putting down someone using false theories, then maybe the issue isn't them.

Its you.

Anti Sachinistas = Sachinistas

 

[Stallion__]

AB is ahead of SRT in ODI's at the moment, behind in tests.

You think AB has crossed Sachin by now, in ODIs?

 

[IndianWillow]

Another Man of the Match performance from this superb player. Becomes the fastest player to score 8000 ODI runs.Absolute clutch player and Sachin wishes he was able to turn matches on their head like AB as opposed to just accumulating runs slowly. AB is a superior ODI player to Sachin and he could overtake him in Tests too once he retires.

Wrong comparison! Openers cannot be expected to turn ODI matches on the head. Their role is to provide the platform for the middle order to finish matches. Sachin had a S/R of 86 and that is not slow run accumulation even now (and Sachin started playing 25 years ago!).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You think AB has crossed Sachin by now, in ODIs?

At the moment.

Peak ABD does seem incredible.

Its fair to say at his PEAK ABD is better than SRT in ODIs.

He seems invincible for a few years now.

If he loses form and fades out in 3 years...people won't rate him ahead of SRT who maintained standards for 10,000 more runs.

But if he continues till next WC doing extremely well, then he is most likely to go down as the superior ODI bat.

He is defo on track to beat SRT in ODIs and is ahead at this juncture.

 

[Stallion__]

At the moment.

Peak ABD does seem incredible.

Its fair to say at his PEAK ABD is better than SRT in ODIs.

He seems invincible for a few years now.

If he loses form and fades out in 3 years...people won't rate him ahead of SRT who maintained standards for 10,000 more runs.

But if he continues till next WC doing extremely well, then he is most likely to go down as the superior ODI bat.

He is defo on track to beat SRT in ODIs and is ahead at this juncture.

I think similarly (though I have a feeling that AB has been a bit rusty since WC, even in IPL).

Peak AB is better than peak Sachin, doubtless. We can just expect AB to carry on and achieve enough to be rated ahead of SRT.

Was just asking him what does he meant by saying that, cuz from other angle, assuming that if AB retires now, he isn't ahead of Sachin atm.

Was Scrolln extrapolating or actually think that AB has done enough by now to be rated ahead of SRT.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Wrong comparison! Openers cannot be expected to turn ODI matches on the head. Their role is to provide the platform for the middle order to finish matches. Sachin had a S/R of 86 and that is not slow run accumulation even now (and Sachin started playing 25 years ago!).

Ask him to give an ROUGH equivalent ABD innings for the following:

146 Sharjah where no one else turned up and SRT helped us qualify for finals
132 Sharjah Finals
98 Centurion which Pakistan would have SURELY won if not for SRT
175 chasing 350 (just fell short by a few runs - partly due to SRT's stupidity and no support from other end)
116 and 90* in CB Series Finals to guide us to victory (this is not an iconic knock but a good one considering context and opposition)

If I think more, I will get more examples.

Fact is ABD doesn't have many iconic knocks (even Kohli has more iconic knocks).

The reason why he doesn't have those iconic knocks is because:

1. He neither plays in the top order to control the game
2. Nor is he a Bevan or Dhoni type ATG finisher

But still ABD has been a monster in every other area but questions do get asked - An amazing batsmen should either come up the order and control the game or just finish stuff like a madman (his approach against the Pak game in WC wouldn't have been how a ATG finisher would go about it).

 

[IndianWillow]

Ask him to give an ROUGH equivalent ABD innings for the following:

146 Sharjah where no one else turned up and SRT helped us qualify for finals
132 Sharjah Finals
98 Centurion which Pakistan would have SURELY won if not for SRT
175 chasing 350 (just fell short by a few runs - partly due to SRT's stupidity and no support from other end)
116 and 90* in CB Series Finals to guide us to victory (this is not an iconic knock but a good one considering context and opposition)

If I think more, I will get more examples.

Fact is ABD doesn't have many iconic knocks (even Kohli has more iconic knocks).

The reason why he doesn't have those iconic knocks is because:

1. He neither plays in the top order to control the game
2. Nor is he a Bevan or Dhoni type ATG finisher

But still ABD has been a monster in every other area but questions do get asked - An amazing batsmen should either come up the order and control the game or just finish stuff like a madman (his approach against the Pak game in WC wouldn't have been how a ATG finisher would go about it).

His batting slot is definitely a weakness. He may get cheaply dismissed more often and his averages may come down, but at #3 AB will play a bigger part in playing crucial knocks.

 

[Scrolln]

You think AB has crossed Sachin by now, in ODIs?

If you compare both after playing 200 odd ODIs, ABDV is clearly ahead.

Tendulkar had the downside of facing a dozen more ODI ATG bowlers though but its not like he dominated them consistently anyway. He was good against them, not great. ABDV played McGrath well in 2007 WC although he was not at his best. So i think he would have done well against ATG bowling although his ODI average and SR would have been a few points lower.

ABDV has performed all over the world (except England) compared to SRT who was a sub-continent bully in ODI's during the 90's. He only improved his away record in the 2000's. AB's performance in knockouts and all through the 2015WC was stellar. He has all the boxes ticked.

As of now he is certainly ahead. Its difficult to compare a middle order batsman to an opener but you know a great batsman when you see one. ABDV is the greatest of this era and unless he goes through a massive slump in form, will end up as the best ODI batsman bar none.

 

[Stallion__]

If you compare both after playing 200 odd ODIs, ABDV is clearly ahead.

Tendulkar had the downside of facing a dozen more ODI ATG bowlers though but its not like he dominated them consistently anyway. He was good against them, not great. ABDV played McGrath well in 2007 WC although he was not at his best. So i think he would have done well against ATG bowling although his ODI average and SR would have been a few points lower.

ABDV has performed all over the world (except England) compared to SRT who was a sub-continent bully in ODI's during the 90's. He only improved his away record in the 2000's. AB's performance in knockouts and all through the 2015WC was stellar. He has all the boxes ticked.

As of now he is certainly ahead. Its difficult to compare a middle order batsman to an opener but you know a great batsman when you see one. ABDV is the greatest of this era and unless he goes through a massive slump in form, will end up as the best ODI batsman bar none.

Ok, got my answer.

I feel that AB also needs an iconic series if not a WC, in his bag, to make a stronger case.

That Sharjah tri-series will remain etched with Sachin's name in people's memories, no such series for AB atm.

Lets see how he goes.

 

[Scrolln]

A few batsmen who were mediocre throughout the 2000's (Sanga, Ross Taylor etc) average 50+ with an SR of 80 odd since 2010. So there is no doubt that this is an era of average inflation.

But ABDV is so far ahead of the pack that its futile to try and downplay his achievements.

 

[Scrolln]

Ok, got my answer.

I feel that AB also needs an iconic series if not a WC, in his bag, to make a stronger case.

That Sharjah tri-series will remain etched with Sachin's name in people's memories, no such series for AB atm.

Lets see how he goes.

He was kind of a dead rubber specialist during the first half of his career.

But he has played some vital knocks since. He set up a series victory against Pakistan when the chips were down recently iirc.

I dont think iconic innings are required of him as long as he is performing at such a beastly level. Even Abdur Razaaq has an iconic ODI innings.

ABDV has been performing at an average of 68 along with an SR of 110 since 2010, i'd take that over a couple of iconic innings anyday

 

[Stallion__]

He was kind of a dead rubber specialist during the first half of his career.

But he has played some vital knocks since. He set up a series victory against Pakistan when the chips were down recently iirc.

I dont think iconic innings are required of him as long as he is performing at such a beastly level. Even Abdur Razaaq has an iconic ODI innings.

ABDV has been performing at an average of 68 along with an SR of 110 since 2010, i'd take that over a couple of iconic innings anyday

ABD's performance may be on the high but this isn't helping his team apart from against lesser sides.

Loss to Ind/Pak in WC, Aus series before that, Pak and SL series couple of years ago, and against NZ a year before that, despite having better team on paper in most of the cases.


If it continues like that, can't rate him ahead of Viv, no matter how long he plays.

AB and SA need to sort out his right batting position.

 

[eradicator]

LOL. Sachin was one of the most explosive Odi Batsman himself. Some ignorants as usual calling him slow. Go watch his innings against Pakistan in Centurion 2003 to refreshen up memories . Thats not how slow batsmen bat.

 

[eradicator]

And the Odi game has become so cheap in the last 10 years . Its no more a game for Specialist bowlers . In the 90s , every game mattered and team always had their great bowlers playing the Odis. Now a days , Great bowlers are few and even they play Tests only.

If today there is an Odi series against Australia , you would expect their bowling line up to be something like this - Gurinder Sandhu , Nathen Counter Mile, Maxwell , Xavier Doherty , Faulkner, Dan Christian , Clint Mckay. What sort of bowling attack is this ?

But 10-15 years ago , the same bowling line up had Mc Grath , Warne , Gillespie , Kasprowicz , Fleming , Brett Lee.

So how can there can be a comparison between runs scored against these bowling line-ups with different standards ?

 

[eradicator]

Another Man of the Match performance from this superb player. Absolute clutch player and Sachin wishes he was able to turn matches on their head like AB as opposed to just accumulating runs slowly.

If MOM is the critera ,

Tendulkar won 62 awards in 463 Matches

ABDV won 23 in 190 Matches.

This again goes to show the impact the runs scored by Tendulkar had .

 

[as-95]

AB is ahead of SRT in ODI's at the moment, behind in tests.

Agreed. It would be unfair to say AB is ahead in Tests, but it's quite obvious that AB is the superior ODI bat. Must be mentioned that AB can overtake Tendulkar in Tests by the time he retires though...

 

[as-95]

ab is definitely more skilled. the most skilled since viv imo. tendulkar was a great grafter of runs that wore oppositions down. this is the reason that tendulkar has a slightly better record in tests than ab atm. but if ab can sort out his over-confidence issues he can definitely enter the league of sobers, viv, hobbs.

Agree with your analysis. He definitely can leave Tendulkars league and join the GOATs like Viv,Sobers,Bradman etc.

 

[as-95]

If you compare both after playing 200 odd ODIs, ABDV is clearly ahead.

Tendulkar had the downside of facing a dozen more ODI ATG bowlers though but its not like he dominated them consistently anyway. He was good against them, not great. ABDV played McGrath well in 2007 WC although he was not at his best. So i think he would have done well against ATG bowling although his ODI average and SR would have been a few points lower.

ABDV has performed all over the world (except England) compared to SRT who was a sub-continent bully in ODI's during the 90's. He only improved his away record in the 2000's. AB's performance in knockouts and all through the 2015WC was stellar. He has all the boxes ticked.

As of now he is certainly ahead. Its difficult to compare a middle order batsman to an opener but you know a great batsman when you see one. ABDV is the greatest of this era and unless he goes through a massive slump in form, will end up as the best ODI batsman bar none.

Pretty fair and neutral analysis. Enjoyed reading it. He is the better ODI bat and although Sachin is superior in Tests, would you say there is a chance AB could overtake Sachin in Tests aswell by the time he retires?

 

[Scrolln]

Pretty fair and neutral analysis. Enjoyed reading it. He is the better ODI bat and although Sachin is superior in Tests, would you say there is a chance AB could overtake Sachin in Tests aswell by the time he retires?

Very difficult. He'll have to bat out of his skin for the next 50 odd tests to surpass SRT.

After 100 tests SRT was considered second to only Bradman and was averaging almost 60 in 2002, which was 13 years into his career after having been the numero uno batsman in one of the toughest decades for batsman.

Even though ABDV had a slow start to his test career, i have always felt that ABDV was the third best test batsman in his team after Kallis/Amla over the last few years. Maybe because they played higher up the order..or maybe because ADBV hardly has any hundreds where he's the sole centurion of the SA innings...i dunno. I never felt like he was the best test batsman in the world.

 

[Hitman]

Another Man of the Match performance from this superb player. Becomes the fastest player to score 8000 ODI runs.Absolute clutch player and Sachin wishes he was able to turn matches on their head like AB as opposed to just accumulating runs slowly. AB is a superior ODI player to Sachin and he could overtake him in Tests too once he retires.

Having an SR of 86 in the 90's, and era where an SR of 75 was considered very good, is equivalent to scoring slowly

 

[aslaisnomasla]

SACHIN any day.

 

[sivaji]

AB is so much better. I don't say this because he has superior stats to Sachin but because of his finding runs off every ball. He plays lesser number of dot balls. You can play 5 dot balls and hit a six and maintaing a healthy SR but AB finds a run every ball.

 

[ChachaCricket]

AB is still behind in tests but he's clearly overtaken in ODIs. What more can he do lol?

 

[sivaji]

AB won't catch Sachin in ODIs. Maybe Joe Root will.

 

[cricketjoshila]

At the moment.

Peak ABD does seem incredible.

Its fair to say at his PEAK ABD is better than SRT in ODIs.

He seems invincible for a few years now.

If he loses form and fades out in 3 years...people won't rate him ahead of SRT who maintained standards for 10,000 more runs.

But if he continues till next WC doing extremely well, then he is most likely to go down as the superior ODI bat.

He is defo on track to beat SRT in ODIs and is ahead at this juncture.

You got to take into account lesser bowlers and field restrictions plus pitches of 90s.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Imagine a SRT at his peak playing on the wickets today against today's bowlers with the no-ball free hits etc ............ Case closed, end thread..........

 

[Vayuu]

Imagine a SRT at his peak playing on the wickets today against today's bowlers with the no-ball free hits etc ............ Case closed, end thread..........

Test and odi avg of mid 60's to early 70's with a strike rate of atleast 75 in test and 100 in odi's, he would have been a fun in t20's too.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You got to take into account lesser bowlers and field restrictions plus pitches of 90s.

I know that is a factor but there comes a time when someone is performing waay too well that you know its beyond all that.

ABD averages 68 with 100 SR in the last 5 years. Far ahead of the pack.

He comes in...starts smashing around and doesn't even get out early.

Plus watching him...you can just FEEL he is special.

Special players feel special. They have stats but they go beyond it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ok so what does ABD have to do now to be rated higher than SRT (not overall way but CURRENT level)?

 

[BigBoy123]

Ok so what does ABD have to do now to be rated higher than SRT (not overall way but CURRENT level)?

Abd in Odis is already a better batsman then tendu.
Abd has a long way to go to prove that he is a better test bat then tendu..
If he can avg 70+ in upcoming test series in Ind it will go a long way in proving that he can be on par or maybe even better then sachin in test

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Pure Evil]

I know that is a factor but there comes a time when someone is performing waay too well that you know its beyond all that.

ABD averages 68 with 100 SR in the last 5 years. Far ahead of the pack.

He comes in...starts smashing around and doesn't even get out early.

Plus watching him...you can just FEEL he is special.

Special players feel special. They have stats but they go beyond it.

I am not really sure you watched Sachin at his peak in the 90's taking on the likes of Mcgrath and co. His shots at those times were equally outrageous with him regularly jumping out to the fast bowlers.

IMHO you cannot compare players across generations, not only due to the changing conditions and peers, but also the different mindset. ABDV can try his shots from ball 1 as it is considered acceptable now, but a few failures with his style of play and he would be out of the team in the 90s

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Abd in Odis is already a better batsman then tendu.
Abd has a long way to go to prove that he is a better test bat then tendu..
If he can avg 70+ in upcoming test series in Ind it will go a long way in proving that he can be on par or maybe even better then sachin in test

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

If he loses form and finishes his career with 10K runs, he ain't better than a guy who went to score almost TWICE that runs maintaining high standards (including WC).

SRT still has 10,000 runs more.

But currently i agree ABD is better (for NOW).

He can be better (overall) if he continues till 2019 WC in a good way.

Let's see.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am not really sure you watched Sachin at his peak in the 90's taking on the likes of Mcgrath and co. His shots at those times were equally outrageous with him regularly jumping out to the fast bowlers.

IMHO you cannot compare players across generations, not only due to the changing conditions and peers, but also the different mindset. ABDV can try his shots from ball 1 as it is considered acceptable now, but a few failures with his style of play and he would be out of the team in the 90s

I did.

Huge SRT fan.

Consider him the greatest Test + ODI player.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Abd in Odis is already a better batsman then tendu.
Abd has a long way to go to prove that he is a better test bat then tendu..
If he can avg 70+ in upcoming test series in Ind it will go a long way in proving that he can be on par or maybe even better then sachin in test

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

All people - Dravid, SRT, Ponting - averaged near 60 at their peak and playing during the tougher eras.

ABD averages JUST 52 now.

Around this time, those guys were in 57-60 zone playing FAR more tougher bowlers.

Tendu averaged 58 in the 90s era.

Till 2011, he averaged almost 57 before it dropped to 53.

After he got into the zone as 20 year old (from 1993 to 2011) - for a 18 year period, Tendu was averaging 59 (away average of 61).

Him and Sobers are the only 2 Test batsmen who have maintaned such jaw dropping averages for that long.

ABD ain't beating SRT in tests.

Its not even a competition unless Devilliers can take his overall average to late 60s (in this easier era).

 

[Chrish]

But currently i agree ABD is better (for NOW).

Nope, not even a comparison in test..

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Nope, not even a comparison in test..

Talking about ODIs.

See my last post bro.

 

[_Salman_]

All people - Dravid, SRT, Ponting - averaged near 60 at their peak and playing during the tougher eras.

ABD averages JUST 52 now.

Around this time, those guys were in 57-60 zone playing FAR more tougher bowlers.

Tendu averaged 58 in the 90s era.

Till 2011, he averaged almost 57 before it dropped to 53.

After he got into the zone as 20 year old (from 1993 to 2011) - for a 18 year period, Tendu was averaging 59 (away average of 61).

Him and Sobers are the only 2 Test batsmen who have maintaned such jaw dropping averages for that long.

ABD ain't beating SRT in tests.

Its not even a competition unless Devilliers can take his overall average to late 60s (in this easier era).

Not saying one is better than the other but AB averages 65.68 with a strike rate of 106.44 from 2009 to the present in ODI's and averages 62.98 in Tests from 2008 to the present.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Not saying one is better than the other but AB averages 65.68 with a strike rate of 106.44 from 2009 to the present in ODI's and averages 62.98 in Tests from 2008 to the present.

Yeah bro...I am aware of it and that's why ABD is RATED BIG TIME.

In ODIs, he is on track to beat SRT.

In tests, not so much.

Cos SRT averaged 62 from 1993-2003 (10 year period) with the next best being 56.

And then he came back to average 62 in his second peak (2007-2011).

Whatever ABD is doing in Tests, SRT did it better and against better bowlers.

In ODIs...ABD is a superman.

 

[ChachaCricket]

In tests it's more about having iconic series and match-winning performances than overall stats. This is the reason why Lara is rated ahead of Tendu, Sanga etc. by so many.

AB's had some very good standout performances but he hasn't had one where he completely carried a team throughout a series. The next 3-4 years will define his career. The immediate series against India could be the one.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Another Man of the Match performance from this superb player. Becomes the fastest player to score 8000 ODI runs.Absolute clutch player and Sachin wishes he was able to turn matches on their head like AB as opposed to just accumulating runs slowly. AB is a superior ODI player to Sachin and he could overtake him in Tests too once he retires.

Dont know whether to laugh or cry at the sheer stupidity and ignorance of this comment. If anything, ABD wishes he could dominate great bowling attacks at their peaks like Tendulkar did day in day out while he ruled the roster. None of the experts rate ABD anywhere near Tendulkar for the most obvious reasons. Tendulkar is the greatest cricketer since Bradman and few bitter haters making ridiculous posts here and there don't quite change that fact.

 

[ChachaCricket]

^Lol there is no hope discussing with Sachinistas.

 

[Sachin136]

^Lol there is no hope discussing with Sachinistas.

If someone makes a post calling Sachin a slow accumulator who never influenced a match result ("turn a match on his head") then he deserves a reply like that.

 

[ChachaCricket]

If someone makes a post calling Sachin a slow accumulator who never influenced a match result ("turn a match on his head") then he deserves a reply like that.

I guess but I've seen enough of Sachinistas to know how they operate.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

In tests it's more about having iconic series and match-winning performances than overall stats. This is the reason why Lara is rated ahead of Tendu, Sanga etc. by so many.

AB's had some very good standout performances but he hasn't had one where he completely carried a team throughout a series. The next 3-4 years will define his career. The immediate series against India could be the one.

That's just a self given definition bro.

All all time lists have SRT but not Lara even though he is leftie and would add variety.

All experts put SRT ahead of Lara (except certain cases).

Even Wisden (not that its the be all and end all of everything) which has a few Lara innings but no Tendu innings puts Tendu ahead of him in a list they came out with.

Even cricinfo expert panel opinion (recently) went with SRT ahead of Kallis, Warne, Lara, etc.

Leave all that.

Lara vs SRT - do a detailed analysis and SRT is comfortably better.

People may rate Lara for flair which is fine but SRT was simply the more effective batsman overall.

Anyhow I am not looking to change your opinion (its perfectly fine to rate Lara ahead of SRT but most don't do it).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I guess but I've seen enough of Sachinistas to know how they operate.

FC has turned from a great troller/good poster to becoming a hopeless Sachinista.

But anti Sachinistas are on par with Sachinistas these days.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

By the way, I agree great innings is more important than stats.

Not disputing that.

But the notion that Lara had great innings but SRT just accumulated stats in tests is AS FAR from the truth as possible.

 

[ChachaCricket]

That's just a self given definition bro.

All all time lists have SRT but not Lara even though he is leftie and would add variety.

All experts put SRT ahead of Lara (except certain cases).

Even Wisden (not that its the be all and end all of everything) which has a few Lara innings but no Tendu innings puts Tendu ahead of him in a list they came out with.

Even cricinfo expert panel opinion (recently) went with SRT ahead of Kallis, Warne, Lara, etc.

Leave all that.

Lara vs SRT - do a detailed analysis and SRT is comfortably better.

People may rate Lara for flair which is fine but SRT was simply the more effective batsman overall.

Anyhow I am not looking to change your opinion (its perfectly fine to rate Lara ahead of SRT but most don't do it).

Well most Aussies and Paks would rate Lara ahead.

Pretty much everyone on that ATG Aussie team rate Lara ahead, similar responses from the 90s Pak.

SRT overall stats might be better but Lara at his best was better than Sachin which is what most will remember. There is no substitute to actually watching the game and how your peers rate you.

 

[ChachaCricket]

By the way, I agree great innings is more important than stats.

Not disputing that.

But the notion that Lara had great innings but SRT just accumulated stats in tests is AS FAR from the truth as possible.

I never called Sachin an accumulator. When Lara performed, he turned into a beast.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Well most Aussies and Paks would rate Lara ahead.

Pretty much everyone on that ATG Aussie team rate Lara ahead, similar responses from the 90s Pak.

SRT overall stats might be better but Lara at his best was better than Sachin which is what most will remember. There is no substitute to actually watching the game and how your peers rate you.

Lara at his best WAS GREATER than SRT at his best. Agreed.

But you see....Lara at his best is probably the greatest batsman of modern era. But people don't rate him to be the greatest do they?
Sobers, Viv are generally rated more than him (barring exceptions).

Pak and Aussies rate Lara ahead of SRT. Agreed.

But a few points:

1. Lara performed very good against Pakistan while SRT didn't get much chances and wasn't all that great in his chances (compared to his normal level).

2. Aussies rate people at their best, flair more than effectiveness (in close comparisons). They rate Denniss Lillee ahead of McGrath.

3. Pakistan people (while the rational ones like you have your reasons for rating Lara ahead of SRT). But many downplay SRT due to other reasons which can be seen in this thread and otherwise (I have seen some Indians downgrade Imran Khan too).

Inspite of all that, in threads about ATG batsman, I see more people (Pak posters) rating SRT ahead of Lara.

As for peers, Lara is considered the tougher batsmen to bowl by most bowlers.

But still SRT gets more votes by panels of experts (many of whom had played against SRT).

Sehwag is anyday more scarier to bowl to than SRT (in ANY pitch) but that doesn't make him greater.

Of course, not comparing Sehwag with Lara but point is that's one aspect of rating (but not everything).

If you take all aspects and opinions, I find SRT to be consistently rated higher than Lara by people.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Lara at his best WAS GREATER than SRT at his best. Agreed.

But you see....Lara at his best is probably the greatest batsman of modern era. But people don't rate him to be the greatest do they?
Sobers, Viv are generally rated more than him (barring exceptions).

Pak and Aussies rate Lara ahead of SRT. Agreed.

But a few points:

1. Lara performed very good against Pakistan while SRT didn't get much chances and wasn't all that great in his chances (compared to his normal level).

2. Aussies rate people at their best, flair more than effectiveness (in close comparisons). They rate Denniss Lillee ahead of McGrath.

3. Pakistan people (while the rational ones like you have your reasons for rating Lara ahead of SRT). But many downplay SRT due to other reasons which can be seen in this thread and otherwise (I have seen some Indians downgrade Imran Khan too).

Inspite of all that, in threads about ATG batsman, I see more people (Pak posters) rating SRT ahead of Lara.

As for peers, Lara is considered the tougher batsmen to bowl by most bowlers.

But still SRT gets more votes by panels of experts (many of whom had played against SRT).

Sehwag is anyday more scarier to bowl to than SRT (in ANY pitch) but that doesn't make him greater.

Of course, not comparing Sehwag with Lara but point is that's one aspect of rating (but not everything).

If you take all aspects and opinions, I find SRT to be consistently rated higher than Lara by people.

I don't have a problem with others rating Sachin ahead. Those who love classical technique and style of play will usually rate him ahead. Aussies and Paks usually go for the flair and aggressive type. The Caribbean are similar.

 

[Buffet]

Pak and Aussies rate Lara ahead of SRT. Agreed.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I don't have a problem with others rating Sachin ahead. Those who love classical technique and style of play will usually rate him ahead. Aussies and Paks usually go for the flair and aggressive type. The Caribbean are similar.

Same thing here.

Its a perfectly fine thing to rate Lara ahead of SRT.

Both are close competitors.

Was just responding to a specific part of your comment.

Hope this doesn't derail this thread (not that it matters considering the size of this thread).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Aussie fans. Experts go with SRT.

I notice Aussie fans favour Lara ahead of SRT.

Wasn't there a poll in cricketweb or some forum where Lara got a LOT more votes?

Plus even the Aussie posters here prefer Lara.

 

[Buffet]

Aussie fans. Experts go with SRT.

I notice Aussie fans favour Lara ahead of SRT.

Wasn't there a poll in cricketweb or some forum where Lara got a LOT more votes?

Plus even the Aussie posters here prefer Lara.

Nah, there are several polls and I can post results suggesting both ways. Here is one which goes against your impression,



-----------

About Aus experts/fans view - I don't think there is any majority view. I haven't seen any polls in Aus but I have watched many matches in Aus. Lara and SRT , both are highly respected in Aus.

If you want some example how SRT is viewed in Aus then here is one example and it's also coming from source
as reliable as you can get,

-----------------

Asked about Tendulkar’s popularity in Australia, McGrath said: “Australia is a sports-mad nation and love their cricket, especially players of the highest calibre. Back when Don Bradman played he had a worldwide profile; I think Sachin enjoys a similar adulation as he’s at that level.

http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/...e-only-time-i-sledged-him-glenn-mcgrath-25444

----

Another Aus legend when it comes to rating him,

"I felt Sachin was the best player I played against, and that's coming from more of a captain's point of view as well, knowing he had so much success against us in our conditions and their conditions" -- Ponting

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-south-africa-2012/content/story/594858.html

-----

You got the best bowler and the best batsman of great Aus team above if credibility of views are concerned. Off course, you can find many good words for Lara in Aus as well because he is highly respected and I feel he got similar receptions in Aus when he played but there is no evidence to suggest that Aus fans/experts/players taken together rate Lara higher.

About 3-4 Aus posters in PP, well I recall Radom_Aussies rating SRT higher. Here you have Convict rating Lara higher. I don't recall about others. Anyway, too small a sample size to draw any conclusion.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Nah, there are several polls and I can post results suggesting both ways. Here is one which goes against your impression,

View attachment 59607

-----------

About Aus experts/fans view - I don't think there is any majority view. I haven't seen any polls in Aus but I have watched many matches in Aus. Lara and SRT , both are highly respected in Aus.

If you want some example how SRT is viewed in Aus then here is one example and it's also coming from source
as reliable as you can get,

-----------------

Asked about Tendulkar’s popularity in Australia, McGrath said: “Australia is a sports-mad nation and love their cricket, especially players of the highest calibre. Back when Don Bradman played he had a worldwide profile; I think Sachin enjoys a similar adulation as he’s at that level.

http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/...e-only-time-i-sledged-him-glenn-mcgrath-25444

----

Another Aus legend when it comes to rating him,

"I felt Sachin was the best player I played against, and that's coming from more of a captain's point of view as well, knowing he had so much success against us in our conditions and their conditions" -- Ponting

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-south-africa-2012/content/story/594858.html

-----

You got the best bowler and the best batsman of great Aus team above if credibility of views are concerned. Off course, you can find many good words for Lara in Aus as well because he is highly respected and I feel he got similar receptions in Aus when he played but there is no evidence to suggest that Aus fans/experts/players taken together rate Lara higher.

About 3-4 Aus posters in PP, well I recall Radom_Aussies rating SRT higher. Here you have Convict rating Lara higher. I don't recall about others. Anyway, too small a sample size to draw any conclusion.

Fair enough bro.

You may be right.

 

[Buffet]

Lara at his best WAS GREATER than SRT at his best. Agreed.

But you see....Lara at his best is probably the greatest batsman of modern era. But people don't rate him to be the greatest do they?

Because not everybody or even majority think that he was the best when it came to impact.

Take a look at Dave Wilson looking at impact closely -

The Big Five – Who had More Impact? -- http://www.cricketweb.net/the-big-five-who-had-more-impact/

Lot of stats here but you get the point. Lara was better to watch for many but him having lots of impact is overblown in PP to be honest. I think Kallis had a lot more impact than Lara if you see their career. In this article you will see actual figures for peak, career and so on...

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Because not everybody or even majority think that he was the best when it came to impact.

Take a look at Dave Wilson looking at impact closely -

The Big Five – Who had More Impact? -- http://www.cricketweb.net/the-big-five-who-had-more-impact/

Lot of stats here but you get the point. Lara was better to watch for many but him having lots of impact is overblown in PP to be honest. I think Kallis had a lot more impact than Lara if you see their career. In this article you will see actual figures for peak, career and so on...

When did I talk about impact?

And what are we defining impact as? Impact in a game or impact as in all games?

At his best, Lara was the better Test batsman. His upper level was better than SRT's.

I don't know what the article considers as impact.

If its EFFECTIVENESS....I have already mentioned that SRT was comfortably the more effective batsman than Lara.

The most effective batsman I have seen.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Impact (the way we use it) is generally considered for a game.

Sehwag was an impactful player.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Don't understand the article to be honest.

Not a fan of such stats which can go either way.

Anyone can come on top or bottom based on whatever criteria they are taking.

Viewing + career stats gives us the best idea.

 

[Itachi]

Till the time when, abd plays knocks like Tendulkar did in world Cup, abd is just great, not atg.

 

[Buffet]

When did I talk about impact?

And what are we defining impact as? Impact in a game or impact as in all games?

At his best, Lara was the better Test batsman. His upper level was better than SRT's.

I don't know what the article considers as impact.

I personally consider impact in career because impact in few matches is not really going to define any player. Players have career and impact they made in their career is the way to judge their imapact. I don't care much about those complicated stats but just presented it because I hear this a lot about Lara having impact in PP.

Let me flip the questions to you. What do you define as their best? The best 2 or 5 Tests ? Or their best 30-40 Tests at a stretch. To me the best 30-40 Tests in any stretch is much more important than the best 1,2 or 5 tests. The best 1,2 or 5 tests tells me the the best knocks and nothing else.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I personally consider impact in career because impact in few matches is not really going to define any player. Players have career and impact they made in their career is the way to judge their imapact. I don't care much about those complicated stats but just presented it because I hear this a lot about Lara having impact in PP.

Let me flip the questions to you. What do you define as their best? The best 2 or 5 Tests ? Or their best 30-40 Tests at a stretch. To me the best 30-40 Tests in any stretch is much more important than the best 1,2 or 5 tests. The best 1,2 or 5 tests tells me the the best knocks and nothing else.

Impact (as we fans generally speak) is about one match.

1 match is the unit.

What you are saying is right but I would say the more proper term would be effectiveness cos colloqially impact is used in a different way.

Sehwag was as impactful player as any. We won't call Dravid to be a more impactful Test batsman but a better Test batsman and a more effective Test batsman than Sehwag (taking both their careers).

For players...being in the zone is taken into account. Lara in zone during a series reaches a crazy level.

 

[Slog]

Sachin right now but I think in LOI AB is almost level if not ahead

This upcoming tour to India and if AB kills it with the bat in Tests then it will go a loong way in cementing his legacy

 

[Slog]

Actually just checked AB's record in Tests and he has a good record EVERYWHERE just like Sachin did.

One of the things imo Sachin has over someone like Ponting and many others is that he was good everywhere. He may not have been a beast in some conditions but he was good everywhere and unlike others didnt have one or 2 places where they absolutely struggled. AB is in same boat. Good record everywhere.

One thing which goes against AB is that his home average is only 48. This is lower than his career average and also ofcourse much lower than his away (incl neutral) average. Now for most great batsman it is at home where they absolutely bash the opposition and also consequently pad up their stats a bit but for him his home average hurts. Ofcourse the obvious reason for that is that he plays his HOME games in South Africa which is not exactly the best place in the world as a batsman.

So imo in future when people simply discuss and bring up metrics like just average they should keep in mind that for AB you should account for the deflation in his average due to the tougher home conditions he has to face which is usually not the case for other great batsmen. For someone like Ponting you again can say well he didnt exactly have the easiest home conditions either because he may have encountered more pace and bounce in the pitches than others. Or someone like Sachin who had to fare in the dust bowls. But the difference here is that no matter how used you are to the conditions a very green pitch can sometimes be a lottery and there is nothing you can do as opposed to a bouncy fast pitch where it is tough but if you are good enough you can combat it

 

[ChachaCricket]

From 9:00 on, interesting discussion before that as well.

 

[TheNightWatchman]

What seperated Sachin from other batsmen was longevity. I've seen many batsmen match Sachin's skill and some even have more skill than him but they lack the longevity. Sachin has been accumulating runs in one of the longest careers in cricket.

 

[Scrolln]

From 9:00 on, interesting discussion before that as well.

I think that discussion was held around 2006? That was a period when SRT was going through a rubbish patch and Lara was scoring ton after ton.

Ian Chappell changed his preference to SRT in 2010 (Sachin's greatest year in tests) and back to Lara in 2012 iirc.

I would be surprised if Aussie fans rated Lara over SRT. I always though Lara had a poor record in Aus. He failed too often there, and when he did score a ton, it was likely in a dead rubber.

But then he had 'that' dream series at home in 1999.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Actually just checked AB's record in Tests and he has a good record EVERYWHERE just like Sachin did.

One of the things imo Sachin has over someone like Ponting and many others is that he was good everywhere. He may not have been a beast in some conditions but he was good everywhere and unlike others didnt have one or 2 places where they absolutely struggled. AB is in same boat. Good record everywhere.

One thing which goes against AB is that his home average is only 48. This is lower than his career average and also ofcourse much lower than his away (incl neutral) average. Now for most great batsman it is at home where they absolutely bash the opposition and also consequently pad up their stats a bit but for him his home average hurts. Ofcourse the obvious reason for that is that he plays his HOME games in South Africa which is not exactly the best place in the world as a batsman.

So imo in future when people simply discuss and bring up metrics like just average they should keep in mind that for AB you should account for the deflation in his average due to the tougher home conditions he has to face which is usually not the case for other great batsmen. For someone like Ponting you again can say well he didnt exactly have the easiest home conditions either because he may have encountered more pace and bounce in the pitches than others. Or someone like Sachin who had to fare in the dust bowls. But the difference here is that no matter how used you are to the conditions a very green pitch can sometimes be a lottery and there is nothing you can do as opposed to a bouncy fast pitch where it is tough but if you are good enough you can combat it

Fair point but I digged in deep and found some interesting stuff. You will be surprised too.

ABD's away average is 52 (career).
ABD's away average in PEAK (from 2009 onwards) is 48 (home average in the same period is 66).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

So in his peak, ABD is not able to increase his overall average because of his away average. Home pitches ain't a problem in this case.

Now compare that with SRT and Dravid.

Their away average before they faded out was 56 and 59.
In their peaks, their away average was touching 60.

So playing in SA isn't what is harming ABD's test numbers in any way. He isn't beasting away which is hurting him.

 

[ExplicitAI]

AB will reach 10K runs in both Tests and ODI's, but he won't pass Sachin as the highest run scorer in ODI's, there's no way he can score 10,000 more runs before he retires.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

AB will reach 10K runs in both Tests and ODI's, but he won't pass Sachin as the highest run scorer in ODI's, there's no way he can score 10,000 more runs before he retires.

He doesn't have to beat SRT's run tally in ODIs to be better than him in ODIs.

As long as his sample is solid with 12-14K ODI runs, its more than enough if he plays like superman.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

ABDV is playing in a batting friendly era where ODI score of 400 is scored for fun. Sachin faced better bowlers and played in more difficult conditions.

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