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Sunil Gavaskar vs Sachin Tendulkar in Tests

Harsh Thakor

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Both Gavaskar and Tendulkar were legends of the game,arguably the greatest batsmen of them all.Gavaskar was the more defensive,Tendulkar the more attacking.Sunny had more concentration awhile Sachin had more imagination.Sunil was the better batsmen in the 2nd innings while Sachin was more effective in the 1st.Suny was more effective against the bouncing ball while Tendulkar was more punishing again st the good length ball.Both were masterrs in the 'V' region and technically virtually on par.Admitedly Sunny faced more lethal pace bowling that too without the aid of a helmet and had less suport from the remaining batsmen.

In pure test cricket it is very hard to seperate the 2 stalwarts.

Gavaskar amassed records against the greatest pace bowlers ever like Imran ,Hadlee,Marshall,Botham,Roberts,Holding etc.He scored more runs aginst Imran and co,.than Tendulkar did aginst the like sof Wasim and Waqar.He scored more centuries v Marshall,Holding nad Roberts than what Sachin did facing Ambrose and Walsh.Tendulakr's record in West Indies is not comparable to Gavaskar's who had an amazing 774 run debut agregate there at an average of 154.8 in 1970-71.Tendulkar did not in England surpass Gavasakr's performance in the 1979 series when he scored 542 run sincludinga classic 221 at the Oval.Nor did Sachin in Pakistan equal Gavaskar's best series effort in Pakistan averaging 89.40 in 1978-79 with Imran at top speed.Unlike Tendulkar Gavaskar opened the batting facing the new ball,which was more challenging than Sachin.3 of Gavaskar's test centuries have been chosen in the Wisden 100 best test innings while none of Sachin's have been selected.Arguably Tendulkar has never equalled Gavaskar's 86 at Bangalore v Pakistan in 1987 or his 221 at the Oval in 1979.He also had a considerably better average in the 4th innings.The likes of Imran Khan,Andy Roberts and Gary Sobers have rated Sunil ahead of Tendulkar overall.

Tendulkar surpassed Gavaskar by a considerable margin in Australia facing top bowlers like WArne and Mcgrath whilst Sunny was lucky to face a 2nd string attck in 1977-78 and 1985-86 when he scored prolifically.Tendulakr alos averaged around 22 runs more in matches won,while Gavaskar was even overshadowed by compatriot Vishwanath in batting average in matches won.Sachin consistently dominated attcks to a considerably greater extent in the 1st half of his career like when scoring 115 at Perth in 1991-92,179 at Kanpur v West Indies or 169 at Edgbaston in 1996 and 155 n.o at Madras v Australia in 1998.Tendulkar also played in South Africa unlike Gavaskar where he was immensely successful scoring a classic 169 at Johannesburg in 1997,158 at Blomfontein in 2001 and 147 at Durban in 2010-11.Arguably South Africa has the most testing wickets in the world where Sachin registered 4 centuries against top quicks like Alan Donald and Dale Steyn.Tendulkar also made his debut at a considerably younger age than Gavaskar and also had greater longevity by a margin of 8 years.Although not facing as lethal pace bowling Tendulkar faced bolwers of a greater variety than Sunny.


Still in his era other stalwarts like Steve Waugh,Inzamam Ul Haq and Ricky Ponting won more games for their teams than Tendulkar or even Rahul Dravid ,Virendra Sehwag ,Brian Lara or V.V.S.Laxman at their best.India won more games by the combined performances of Sehwag,Laxman and Dravid thna by Tendulkar.Yet it has to be noted that Sachin hardly received any support from his team mates.


So with a gun on my head who would I choose in test cricket?Scaling the statistics Gavaskar may just get the nod considering the opposition he faced and minimal support received but in asessing overall batting skill Tendukar would win as he was a more complete batsmen who would win you more matches.On his day Tendulkar could be ferocious against the likes of Wasim or Donald at their best.To bat for your life I would back Gavaskar but to win games Tendulkar would be my unanimous choice,bein g more impactful.Many pundits chose Sachin to open the all-time test xi but this is highly debatable.In an all-time world xi by a whisker I would consider Tendulkar to be a more suitable candidate than Gavaskar.


STATISTIC SBY S.RAJESH OF CRICINFO


SUNIL GAVASKAR

The other aspect of Gavaskar's career that stood out was his ability to play for long periods, especially in the fourth innings of Tests. Several other top-class batsmen have performed below potential in the last innings of Tests, with Tendulkar being the prime example: in 47 such innings he averages less than 38. But Gavaskar had no such problems, averaging 58.25 in 33 innings, which is second only to Boycott among batsmen who scored at least 1000 fourth-innings runs.

One of the features of Gavaskar's batting - and that of India during the period he played in - was the ability to bat many overs in the last innings. When he scored that 221 at The Oval, India batted 150.5 overs, and there were several other instances when the team batted more than 100 overs. (Click here for a Numbers Game column from July 2007 that compares Gavaskar and Tendulkar in fourth innings; while Gavaskar averaged more than 56 in meaningful fourth innings, Tendulkar only managed an average of less than 27.)

Best Test averages in fourth innings (Qual: 1000 runs) Batsman Innings Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Geoff Boycott 34 1234 58.76 3/ 7
Sunil Gavaskar 33 1398 58.25 4/ 8
Graeme Smith 30 1285 53.54 3/ 8
Gordon Greenidge 38 1383 53.19 3/ 6
Ricky Ponting 38 1311 52.44 4/ 4
Matthew Hayden 39 1287 49.50 1/ 9
Jacques Kallis 41 1212 44.88 1/ 10
Graham Gooch 29 1121 44.84 3/ 5

Opening the innings was a tough job in an era when there were plenty of top-class fast bowlers around, but Gavaskar handled the pressures superbly. Apart from the West Indies attack, he played 18 Tests against Imran Khan and 14 against Ian Botham. While both are among the five bowlers who dismissed him most often, Gavaskar had more than his fair share of success against them. He scored four centuries in the 18 Tests he played against Imran - including in each innings of the Karachi Test in 1978, and a memorable unbeaten 127, when he carried the bat through the innings against a rampant Imran in Faisalabad in 1983. (In fact, Gavaskar is one of only two batsmen to score centuries in each innings of a Test three times; Ricky Ponting is the other.) Botham dismissed him eight times, but mostly after he had made reasonable contributions. The bowler who dismissed him cheaply most often was Malcolm Marshall, who too nailed him on eight occasions, seven of them before he touched 25. Of course, the fact that Gavaskar usually faced the first ball of an innings also meant the bowlers had the opportunity to dismiss him off the first ball of the match - this fate befell him three times, with Geoff Arnold, Imran and Marshall the successful bowlers. Bangladesh's Hannan Sarkar is the only batsman to share this record with Gavaskar.

Till the turn of the century Gavaskar was one of only six openers to have scored more than 3000 runs at a 50-plus average. (Three batsmen - Matthew Hayden, Graeme Smith and Virender Sehwag - have joined the club since then, which is another stat to suggest that opening the innings has become comparatively easier in the last decade.)

Highest averages among openers till 2000 (Qual: 3000 runs) Batsman Innings Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Herbert Sutcliffe 83 4522 61.10 16/ 23
Len Hutton 131 6721 56.47 19/ 31
Jack Hobbs 97 5130 56.37 14/ 27
Bob Simpson 70 3664 55.51 8/ 19
Dennis Amiss 69 3276 53.70 11/ 9
Sunil Gavaskar 203 9607 50.29 33/ 42
Geoff Boycott 191 8091 48.16 22/ 42
Saeed Anwar 70 3271 48.10 9/ 21


One of the most remarkable aspects of Gavaskar's career was the success he achieved against West Indies, the best team of the 1980s. He scored 13 centuries against them, which is the second-highest for a batsman against one opposition; only Don Bradman, with 19 against England, has more. Bradman's overall rate of scoring hundreds was obviously much better than Gavaskar's, but in this case the rates were comparable: Bradman's 19 came in 37 Tests, while Gavaskar needed 27 matches for his 13 hundreds.

Some of his runs against West Indies were scored when the attacks weren't quite as fearsome - in his first series, in 1970-71, West Indies had a spin-heavy attack, while in 1978-79 the best bowlers were away playing in World Series Cricket, but even in the other series Gavaskar had some memorable battles against the West Indies' fast bowlers. Fittingly, some of his most memorable landmarks came against them: in the 1983-84 series in India, he made his 29th hundred, to equal Bradman's record, and then went past it in Chennai. Both were special innings - the first one, in Delhi, came off a mere 94 balls, while the second was a marathon that lasted more than 10 hours and ended a run-drought of 36 runs from his previous five innings.

Of the 2749 runs Gavaskar scored against West Indies, almost 30% came at a single venue - the Queen's Park Oval in Port-of-Spain. He played five Tests there, and only once did he fail, scoring 1 and 32 in the 1983 series. Despite that, he was the Bradman of Port-of-Spain, averaging 99.12 at the ground. He is also one of only four batsmen to score more than 750 Test runs at an overseas venue, and remains the only one to do it since 1950. Among the grounds he played in, only at two venues did he score more runs - the Wankhede Stadium in Mumbai and the MA Chidambaram Stadium in Chennai.

Best batsmen against West Indies between 1970 and 1990 (Qual: 750 runs) Batsman Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Dennis Amiss 9 1113 74.20 4/ 2
Sunil Gavaskar 27 2749 65.45 13/ 7
Wasim Raja 11 919 57.43 2/ 7
Greg Chappell 17 1400 56.00 5/ 7
Gundappa Viswanath 18 1455 53.88 4/ 7
Ian Chappell 12 997 52.47 3/ 4


SACHIN TENDULKAR

During that six-year period from January 1997 to December 2002, Tendulkar was unquestionably the best batsman in the world, handling pace in Australia and South Africa as effectively as he did spin in Sri Lanka. And then, of course, there was the epic 136 against Pakistan in Chennai which, unfortunately for him, wasn't enough to take India to victory against Pakistan.

In only 59 Tests he managed 21 centuries - an average of one every 2.81 matches. His average during this phase was well ahead of the second-placed Andy Flower, who led a string of batsmen who averaged in the md-50s.

Best Test batsmen between Jan 1997 and Dec 2002 Batsman Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Sachin Tendulkar 59 5705 63.38 21/ 20
Andy Flower 41 3464 56.78 9/ 18
Matthew Hayden 35 3054 56.55 12/ 10
Rahul Dravid 62 5178 55.08 14/ 25
Aravinda de Silva 38 3134 54.98 12/ 9
Inzamam-ul-Haq 49 3740 51.94 12/ 15
Jacques Kallis 63 4447 51.70 11/ 25
Ricky Ponting 57 3916 50.85 14/ 14

Unfortunately for Tendulkar, his best period coincided with one where India had a poor bowling attack, especially overseas, and a batting line-up that tended to crumble quite often on tours. In 69 Tests between the beginning of 1993 and the end of 2001, India won 23, but only three of those came abroad. During this period, Tendulkar contributed almost 20% of all runs scored off the bat by India, and more than 21% when they played in Australia, South Africa, England, New Zealand or the West Indies. From 2002 onwards, there were many more batsmen contributing - Rahul Dravid, Virender Sehwag and VVS Laxman weighed in consistently both home and away, which significantly reduced the dependence on Tendulkar: he has contributed only 14.30% of the team runs since 2002. With the bowling attack getting stronger as well, Tendulkar has been a part of 15 away Test wins during this period, and 32 wins in all in these eight-and-a-half years.

Tendulkar's contribution to the team Period Tendulkar's runs Team runs Percentage
Till Dec 1992 1085 9122 11.89
Jan 1993 to Dec 2001 6334 32,048 19.76
Jan '93 to Dec '01, in Aus, SA, NZ, Eng, WI 1783 8368 21.31
Jan 2002 onwards 6028 42,140 14.30
Overall 13,477 83,310 16.18

A standout feature of Tendulkar's career has been his tendency to save his best for the greatest team of his generation. Few batsmen have consistently got the better of Australia over the last two decades, but Tendulkar is clearly one of them. His two stunning hundreds on his first tour to Australia announced him as a special talent, while his Boxing Day century in 1999 showed the gulf between him and the rest of the Indian batsmen. Later in his career some of the others - Laxman and Sehwag, especially - also showed their liking for the Australian attack, but Tendulkar is the one player who has sustained his performances against Australia for 20 years.

Highest Test averages against Australia since 1990 Batsman Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Sachin Tendulkar 29 2748 56.08 10/ 11
VVS Laxman 24 2204 55.10 6/ 10
Virender Sehwag 15 1483 51.13 3/ 7
Brian Lara 31 2856 51.00 9/ 11
Kevin Pietersen 12 1116 50.72 2/ 7
Richie Richardson 14 1084 49.27 4/ 4
Graham Thorpe 16 1235 45.74 3/ 8
Shivnarine Chanderpaul 17 1303 44.93 4/ 8

Tendulkar's Test average in Australia is marginally higher than his average against them at home, while six of his ten hundreds against them have come in Australia.

Best Test averages by overseas batsmen in Australia since 1990 (Qual: 750 runs) Batsman Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Virender Sehwag 7 833 59.50 2/ 3
Sachin Tendulkar 16 1522 58.53 6/ 5
VVS Laxman 11 1081 54.05 4/ 3
Rahul Dravid 12 972 48.60 1/ 5
Jacques Kallis 12 915 45.75 2/ 5
Brian Lara 19 1469 41.97 4/ 4
 
This is really tough as far as tests are concerned.

Gavaskar is by far the greatest post-war opener of all-time. An average of 50+ away from home and outside Asia as well as an average of 40+ in all countries(except minnow-ish SL against whom he played just 3 tests).

Unlike Tendulkar, he wasn't aggressive enough though but as an opener, the role is different and you need to have tighter defense to survive against great bowlers.

If I have to pick an opener, Gavaskar it is and a if a middle order, then Tendulkar.

Overall, Tendulkar takes it due to his exploits in ODI where Gavaskar was a nobody.
 
This is really tough as far as tests are concerned.

Gavaskar is by far the greatest post-war opener of all-time. An average of 50+ away from home and outside Asia as well as an average of 40+ in all countries(except minnow-ish SL against whom he played just 3 tests).

Unlike Tendulkar, he wasn't aggressive enough though but as an opener, the role is different and you need to have tighter defense to survive against great bowlers.

If I have to pick an opener, Gavaskar it is and a if a middle order, then Tendulkar.

Overall, Tendulkar takes it due to his exploits in ODI where Gavaskar was a nobody.

Only test cricket who is better?This wa sthe question.
 
Gavaskar is the greatest Indian test batsman.

It's not a coincidence that that Sunny is the only opener ever in 141 years of test cricket to have scored 10k runs with a 50+ avg.
 
Gavaskar is the greatest Indian test batsman.

It's not a coincidence that that Sunny is the only opener ever in 141 years of test cricket to have scored 10k runs with a 50+ avg.

greater match-winner than Tendulkar and more complete and impactful in test cricket?
 
greater match-winner than Tendulkar and more complete and impactful in test cricket?

I never factor in "match-winning" performances. Because it has never made sense to me how 1 individual can be held accountable for wins/losses in a team sports involving 11 people.

If match-winner was a true factor then we would never have heard of comparisons between Lara and Sachin.
 
This is really tough as far as tests are concerned.

Gavaskar is by far the greatest post-war opener of all-time. An average of 50+ away from home and outside Asia as well as an average of 40+ in all countries(except minnow-ish SL against whom he played just 3 tests).

Unlike Tendulkar, he wasn't aggressive enough though but as an opener, the role is different and you need to have tighter defense to survive against great bowlers.

If I have to pick an opener, Gavaskar it is and a if a middle order, then Tendulkar.

Overall, Tendulkar takes it due to his exploits in ODI where Gavaskar was a nobody.

Comer on, that would be Barry Richards :D
 
One of the biggest shortcoming of Tendulkar's was poor performance in 4th inning. This is where Gavaskar excelled.

List of players with atleast 1000 runs in 4th inning (sorted by average)

[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]NO [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]G Boycott (ENG) [/td][td]1965-1981 [/td][td]36 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]1234 [/td][td]58.76 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Gavaskar (INDIA) [/td][td]1971-1987 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1398 [/td][td]58.25 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CG Greenidge (WI) [/td][td]1974-1991 [/td][td]41 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]1383 [/td][td]53.19 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GC Smith (ICC/SA) [/td][td]2002-2014 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]1611 [/td][td]51.96 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Younis Khan (PAK) [/td][td]2000-2017 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]1465 [/td][td]50.51 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RT Ponting (AUS) [/td][td]1995-2012 [/td][td]56 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]1462 [/td][td]50.41 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ML Hayden (AUS) [/td][td]1994-2008 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]1287 [/td][td]49.5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DA Warner (AUS) [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1026 [/td][td]46.63 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GA Gooch (ENG) [/td][td]1978-1995 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1121 [/td][td]44.84 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Haynes (WI) [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]1092 [/td][td]43.68 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DPMD Jayawardene (SL) [/td][td]1998-2014 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]1096 [/td][td]42.15 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CH Gayle (WI) [/td][td]2000-2014 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]1390 [/td][td]42.12 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MA Atherton (ENG) [/td][td]1989-2001 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]1375 [/td][td]41.66 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (ICC/SA) [/td][td]1996-2013 [/td][td]57 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]1332 [/td][td]41.62 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]10 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Chanderpaul (WI) [/td][td]1994-2015 [/td][td]63 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]1580 [/td][td]41.57 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]11 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KC Sangakkara (SL) [/td][td]2000-2015 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1163 [/td][td]41.53 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]VVS Laxman (INDIA) [/td][td]1996-2012 [/td][td]51 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]1095 [/td][td]40.55 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JL Langer (AUS) [/td][td]1993-2007 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1053 [/td][td]40.5 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Dravid (ICC/INDIA) [/td][td]1996-2012 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]1575 [/td][td]40.38 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AB de Villiers (SA) [/td][td]2004-2018 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1141 [/td][td]38.03 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KP Pietersen (ENG) [/td][td]2005-2014 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1017 [/td][td]37.66 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RR Sarwan (WI) [/td][td]2000-2011 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1241 [/td][td]37.6 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Tendulkar (INDIA) [/td][td]1989-2013 [/td][td]74 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]1625 [/td][td]36.93 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AN Cook (ENG) [/td][td]2006-2018 [/td][td]54 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]1611 [/td][td]35.8 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HM Amla (SA) [/td][td]2004-2018 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1235 [/td][td]35.28 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BC Lara (ICC/WI) [/td][td]1992-2006 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1440 [/td][td]35.12 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AJ Stewart (ENG) [/td][td]1990-2003 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]1134 [/td][td]34.36 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AJ Strauss (ENG) [/td][td]2004-2012 [/td][td]36 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1005 [/td][td]32.41 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
On topic, Sachin gets consistently rated among the top 5 in greatest cricketers lists (Tests) and consistently finds a place in All Time XI's (Tests). I'd pick him ahead.

Sunny was magnificent, but his game was completely different from Sachin. It was based on technique, concentration, and discipline. Both very different type of batsman.
 
Only test cricket who is better?This wa sthe question.

It will always be tough if we compare players of two different batting position, requiring different skill-sets.

As an opener, you need to have tighter defense and could see of the new ball very well while a middle order needs to be more dynamic.

If still you need one name, then I will have Gavaskar in tests because he is more successful than any opener who has played the game ever while if you don't give me Tendulkar, I can still find someone else in that spots.
 
It will always be tough if we compare players of two different batting position, requiring different skill-sets.

As an opener, you need to have tighter defense and could see of the new ball very well while a middle order needs to be more dynamic.

If still you need one name, then I will have Gavaskar in tests because he is more successful than any opener who has played the game ever while if you don't give me Tendulkar, I can still find someone else in that spots.

Very good reply sir.logical and analytical.
 
While its true Gavaskar wasn't the among the best ODI player of his era. Certainly not Match winner as shown by just 1 century. One overlooked aspect was his high percentage of getting 50's.

[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]SR [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]50's per match % [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DM Jones (AUS) [/td][td]1984-1989 [/td][td]84 [/td][td]3044 [/td][td]45.43 [/td][td]75.57 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]27.38 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CG Greenidge (WI) [/td][td]1975-1989 [/td][td]116 [/td][td]4869 [/td][td]46.81 [/td][td]66.32 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]25.86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IVA Richards (WI) [/td][td]1975-1989 [/td][td]175 [/td][td]6442 [/td][td]48.43 [/td][td]90.96 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]25.14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Gavaskar (INDIA) [/td][td]1974-1987 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]3092 [/td][td]35.13 [/td][td]62.26 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]25.00 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GA Gooch (ENG) [/td][td]1976-1989 [/td][td]76 [/td][td]2996 [/td][td]41.61 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]23.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Javed Miandad (PAK) [/td][td]1975-1989 [/td][td]158 [/td][td]5343 [/td][td]44.15 [/td][td]69.17 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]23.42 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RB Richardson (WI) [/td][td]1983-1989 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]3530 [/td][td]34.6 [/td][td]61.75 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]23.33 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Zaheer Abbas (PAK) [/td][td]1974-1985 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]2572 [/td][td]47.62 [/td][td]84.8 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]20.97 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MD Crowe (NZ) [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]82 [/td][td]2455 [/td][td]34.09 [/td][td]74.62 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]20.73 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Haynes (WI) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]169 [/td][td]6338 [/td][td]43.41 [/td][td]63.97 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]20.71 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AJ Lamb (ENG) [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]89 [/td][td]3072 [/td][td]42.66 [/td][td]75.25 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]20.22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Rameez Raja (PAK) [/td][td]1985-1989 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]2840 [/td][td]30.86 [/td][td]64.48 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]19.39 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GS Chappell (AUS) [/td][td]1971-1983 [/td][td]74 [/td][td]2331 [/td][td]40.18 [/td][td]75.7 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]18.92 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DC Boon (AUS) [/td][td]1984-1989 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]2636 [/td][td]33.79 [/td][td]67.53 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]18.52 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DB Vengsarkar (INDIA) [/td][td]1976-1989 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]3417 [/td][td]35.22 [/td][td]67.59 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]17.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]K Srikkanth (INDIA) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]3486 [/td][td]29.05 [/td][td]72.17 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]17.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AR Border (AUS) [/td][td]1979-1989 [/td][td]194 [/td][td]4897 [/td][td]31.19 [/td][td]70.08 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]32 [/td][td]16.49 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GR Marsh (AUS) [/td][td]1986-1989 [/td][td]78 [/td][td]2923 [/td][td]40.04 [/td][td]56.85 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]15.38 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saleem Malik (PAK) [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]105 [/td][td]2803 [/td][td]32.97 [/td][td]86.14 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]15.24 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JG Wright (NZ) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]119 [/td][td]3183 [/td][td]27.2 [/td][td]56.4 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]15.13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GM Wood (AUS) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]83 [/td][td]2219 [/td][td]33.62 [/td][td]59.57 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]13.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mudassar Nazar (PAK) [/td][td]1977-1989 [/td][td]122 [/td][td]2653 [/td][td]25.26 [/td][td]51.71 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]13.11 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RJ Shastri (INDIA) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]119 [/td][td]2323 [/td][td]29.03 [/td][td]65.52 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]11.76 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MW Gatting (ENG) [/td][td]1977-1989 [/td][td]85 [/td][td]2049 [/td][td]31.52 [/td][td]71.12 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]10.59 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DI Gower (ENG) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]105 [/td][td]3030 [/td][td]32.23 [/td][td]76.01 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]10.48 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AL Logie (WI) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]114 [/td][td]2213 [/td][td]36.27 [/td][td]73.39 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]9.65 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]149 [/td][td]2940 [/td][td]26.48 [/td][td]101.44 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]9.40 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1974-1989 [/td][td]136 [/td][td]2759 [/td][td]32.45 [/td][td]74.87 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]8.82 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Azharuddin (INDIA) [/td][td]1985-1989 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]2252 [/td][td]31.27 [/td][td]68.3 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]7.14 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
In tests it's a difficult call but Sachin is the overall better batsmen imo. In tests I would take Sachin just but if someone rated Sunil higher I wouldn't be upset over it.
 
Sunny is contender for greateat test opener.

Tendulkar is contender for greatest test #4

I am good with that.
 
Sunil Gavaskar, EASILY. The best Indian batsman ever and a sure shot contender for the Top 5 test batsmen of all time.
 
I never factor in "match-winning" performances. Because it has never made sense to me how 1 individual can be held accountable for wins/losses in a team sports involving 11 people.

If match-winner was a true factor then we would never have heard of comparisons between Lara and Sachin.
Very relevant point but Tendulkar was more flamboyant and impactful.
 
It will always be tough if we compare players of two different batting position, requiring different skill-sets.

As an opener, you need to have tighter defense and could see of the new ball very well while a middle order needs to be more dynamic.

If still you need one name, then I will have Gavaskar in tests because he is more successful than any opener who has played the game ever while if you don't give me Tendulkar, I can still find someone else in that spots.

Very good analysis even if I differ in conclusion.A strong case for Sunny.
 
Gavaskar due to his godly record in 4th innings. Tendulkar's 4th innings stats always bothered me, Gavaskar was much better under pressure in tests.
 
Gavaskar due to his godly record in 4th innings. Tendulkar's 4th innings stats always bothered me, Gavaskar was much better under pressure in tests.

Very good point.endorse view. but was not Sachin the greater match-winner who could turn a game more?
 
With a gun on my head I feel by a whisker Tendulkar is a more suitable candidate for a middle order spot in an all-time xi than Gavaskar for the berth of an opening batsmen.Still there is wider choice for middle order so mayble unfair to compare.I contemplate opening the batting with Tendulkar and Barry Richards who may both replace Sunny.
 
:))) No poster can go head to head with you.

I will take that as a compliment :70: Mucho fun arguing with [MENTION=145164]Proactive_[/MENTION] . Credit to him for providing us with plenty of opportunities for interesting banter.
 
I will take that as a compliment :70: Mucho fun arguing with [MENTION=145164]Proactive_[/MENTION] . Credit to him for providing us with plenty of opportunities for interesting banter.

Bu then again, you got it all wrong. Wasn't Sunny lured by the IPL ambitions when he bowed down?
 
And that is supposed to prove?

Bowing to someone much younger is a huge deal in Indian tradition. Sunny bowing to Tendulkar on live TV tells you the bakwasness of your posts where you try to run down Tendulkar. Tendulkar is the real boss. Deal with it.


But I got to admit, whatever it's supposed to prove.. it's still a far more convincing argument than your arguments on how Cricket in 1988 doesn't count but 1990 onwards does. :))

Why dont you first show me where I said all cricket in 1988 doesnt count ? :))
 
Bowing to someone much younger is a huge deal in Indian tradition. Sunny bowing to Tendulkar on live TV tells you the bakwasness of your posts where you try to run down Tendulkar. Tendulkar is the real boss. Deal with it.

That only tells me that Gavaskar is a gracious gracious man. That's all. Keep trying to make it something which it isn't though :))



Why dont you first show me where I said all cricket in 1988 doesnt count ? :))

"all" cricket?

Interesting. So, now you'll distinguish cricket in 1988 itself based on your preferences? :)) :))

You can't make this up. This has got to take the cake.
 
That only tells me that Gavaskar is a gracious gracious man. That's all. Keep trying to make it something which it isn't though :))

lol no matter how gracious you are ... nobody touches anybodies feet unless the person is special. You can try to twist and turn as much as you want to save face but the truth remains which is that Tendulkar is the real king of Indian Cricket. Heck his own team mates refer to him as Bhagwan. Your opinion means absolutely didly squat. Get used to reality.


"all" cricket?

Interesting. So, now you'll distinguish cricket in 1988 itself based on your preferences? :)) :))

You can't make this up. This has got to take the cake.

So I take it that you did not find any post of mine that says what you are accusing me of ?
 
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lol no matter how gracious you are ... nobody touches anybodies feet unless the person is special. You can try to twist and turn as much as you want to save face but the truth remains which is that Tendulkar is the real king of Indian Cricket. Heck his own team mates refer to him as Bhagwan. Your opinion means absolutely didly squat. Get used to reality.


Kapil Dev is India's greatest match-winner, says Sunil Gavaskar

https://www.cricketcountry.com/news...atest-match-winner-says-sunil-gavaskar-579716

That's much bigger praise than bowing down to someone in graciousness. Besides, Sachin could only dream of becoming as integral to the Indian team as Kapil was. Tendulkar wasn't even the best batsman in his own team for many many years of his career. "Real King of Indian cricket" :)) :)) More like real king of Indian marketing.


So I take it that you did not find any post of mine that says what you are accusing me of ?

Oh, don't worry I'll expose you on everything. Just found it interesting that you're already trying to wash your hands off by introducing another sub-argument on how "all" cricket is not worth rating in 1988, only some is. :)) Just wanted your clarification on that first.
 
Kapil Dev is India's greatest match-winner, says Sunil Gavaskar

https://www.cricketcountry.com/news...atest-match-winner-says-sunil-gavaskar-579716

That's much bigger praise than bowing down to someone in graciousness. Besides, Sachin could only dream of becoming as integral to the Indian team as Kapil was. Tendulkar wasn't even the best batsman in his own team for many many years of his career. "Real King of Indian cricket" :)) :)) More like real king of Indian marketing.

Do you realize that Sunny is the mouthpiece of BCCI Marketing division ? :)))

As great a player Kapil was he was still dropped during his peak and I can assure you no player touched his feet or refered to him as God.

Oh, don't worry I'll expose you on everything. Just found it interesting that you're already trying to wash your hands off by introducing another sub-argument on how "all" cricket is not worth rating in 1988, only some is. :)) Just wanted your clarification on that first.

So you have not found any post yet ... and if history is anything to by you will magically vanish anytime now.
 
Do you realize that Sunny is the mouthpiece of BCCI Marketing division ? :)))

As great a player Kapil was he was still dropped during his peak and I can assure you no player touched his feet or refered to him as God.

That actually makes his praise for Kapil even more considerable since Kapil was at loggerheads with the BCCI for Years. Another self goal by the Tuskman :))



So you have not found any post yet ... and if history is anything to by you will magically vanish anytime now.

Oh don't worry about that. Just clarify your statement on "all" cricket in 1988 and I'll get you all the posts. But obviously you won't clarify since you now stand in a proper Catch 22. Let's see you try to wiggle out of this now.
 
That actually makes his praise for Kapil even more considerable since Kapil was at loggerheads with the BCCI for Years. Another self goal by the Tuskman :))

ahhh got it .... so you have no issues with the Evil BCCI Marketing as long as it suits you .... and pray tell in which bizzarro world do you live where getting dropped is a "feather in the cap" ?

BTW Kapil took up the amnesty offered by BCCI (on the condition that he quit ICL) otherwise he would be pretty much a persona-non-grata as far as BCCI is concerned and wouldnt even get his pension. He is hardly anywhere near the stature of Tendulkar. Not even Sunny is. Deal with it.




Oh don't worry about that. Just clarify your statement on "all" cricket in 1988 and I'll get you all the posts. But obviously you won't clarify since you now stand in a proper Catch 22. Let's see you try to wiggle out of this now.

I took your post#30 as referring to all cricket in 1988 . If thats not what you meant then now is the time to clarify what you actually meant and also quote my post that lead you into making that post. Something tells me you wont do either :)))
 
ahhh got it .... so you have no issues with the Evil BCCI Marketing as long as it suits you .... and pray tell in which bizzarro world do you live where getting dropped is a "feather in the cap" ?

You do realize that this has NOTHING to do with your point, right? You pointed out something about Gavaskar being the head of marketing or something and I just debunked your little assertion since Kapil was anti BCCI for years.

Also, Kapil was never dropped for his performances and that's well documented. No fast bowler in India was half the bowler or a quarter the all rounder Kapil was during the time he was dropped.

See what Gavaskar had to say about the incident:

Gavaskar also stressed that the decision to drop Kapil was taken before he had joined the meeting which had commenced 20 minutes before. The former Indian opener also shared a column written by the late Hanumant Singh, the former India batsman, who was a selector then, about Gavaskar not mooting the idea to drop Kapil. "No captain is foolish enough to suggest dropping his best player and match-winner from the team and whatever else I may be, I am not foolish to do that," Gavaskar stated.

https://www.indiatimes.com/sports/3...from-1984-kolkata-test-vs-england-255431.html



BTW Kapil took up the amnesty offered by BCCI (on the condition that he quit ICL) otherwise he would be pretty much a persona-non-grata as far as BCCI is concerned and wouldnt even get his pension. He is hardly anywhere near the stature of Tendulkar. Not even Sunny is. Deal with it.

Kapil and Gavaskar both would be held in much much higher esteem if they had the BCCI machine of the 2000s shoving them down everyone's throats like they have with Tendulkar for 20 years now. It's mind boggling that someone like Tendulkar who wasn't even the best batsman in his own team for large periods during his career has been accorded the sort of nauseating hype and hooplah by these cretins called the BCCI while genuine trailblazers of Indian cricket like Kapil and Sunny are afterthoughts. Just one of the many tragedies of Indian cricket.


I took your post#30 as referring to all cricket in 1988 . If thats not what you meant then now is the time to clarify what you actually meant and also quote my post that lead you into making that post. Something tells me you wont do either :)))

Oh you know very well what I meant, and you also know very well what exactly I'm going to post about your ridiculous claims for any sort of cricket before the 1990s. No wonder you already started working on your exit strategy. :))
 
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You do realize that this has NOTHING to do with your point, right? You pointed out something about Gavaskar being the head of marketing or something and I just debunked your little assertion since Kapil was anti BCCI for years.

speaking about being on point... what has Kapil got to do with this discussion about who is better between Sunny or SRT ? Que - Time to start wiggling, deflecting , switch topics the usual nautanki :91:


Also, Kapil was never dropped for his performances and that's well documented. No fast bowler in India was half the bowler or a quarter the all rounder Kapil was during the time he was dropped.

See what Gavaskar had to say about the incident:

https://www.indiatimes.com/sports/3...from-1984-kolkata-test-vs-england-255431.html

He absolutely was dropped for the irresponsible cricket he played. So it was purely cricket related. Also well known fact is that Sunny and Kapil never got along during their playing days. If BCCI had done something even remotely close as dropping SRT for whatever reason they would be quite literally lynched in broad daylight. Thats the difference between the stature of SRT and everyone else. You can whinge rant and rave all you want out of impotent frustration but that is the cold hard fact that I suggest you find ways to deal with for your own good. But I must admit - I hope you dont ... for the greater good of forum entertainment ... lol


Kapil and Gavaskar both would be held in much much higher esteem if they had the BCCI machine of the 2000s shoving them down everyone's throats like they have with Tendulkar for 20 years now.

Except that Tendulkars stature was mostly earned in the 90s when he was a one man show and BCCI was still pretty much the same org that Sunny and Kapil had to work with.


It's mind boggling that someone like Tendulkar who wasn't even the best batsman in his own team for large periods during his career has been accorded the sort of nauseating hype and hooplah by these cretins called the BCCI while genuine trailblazers of Indian cricket like Kapil and Sunny are afterthoughts. Just one of the many tragedies of Indian cricket.

LMAO .. Every single player that SRT played with holds him in extreme high regard some even going to the extent of calling him Bhagwan and touching his feet all on live tv and on multiple occasions. Such is the reverence for the man and for very good reasons too. Not just empty words that every player will dish out if asked to comment on a team mate. No self respecting individual will do things like touching someones feet - especially if older - Your opinion means diddly squat here and you very well know it.

Sunny is on BCCI TV 24/7 for God knows how many years ... the only thing that he has managed to do is ruin any of the hard earned reputation from his playing days.


Oh you know very well what I meant

No I dont. You know why? Because I dont think even you know what the fudge you are talking about otherwise you would have produced that post by now.


and you also know very well what exactly I'm going to post about your ridiculous claims for any sort of cricket before the 1990s. No wonder you already started working on your exit strategy. :))

Yes I do know what you are going to post : NOTHING :))) And Iam right here and will be here long after you have run away from this thread as always. I have lost count of the threads that I have driven you out of .
 
Gavaskar is the father of modern Indian batting. Prior to him they used to back away to the quicks. But he got into line.

Everything since is based on him.
 
Gavaskar is the father of modern Indian batting. Prior to him they used to back away to the quicks. But he got into line.

Everything since is based on him.

Guys like Hazare and Umrigar were much before Gavaskar's time. In fact even Pataudi, Gundappa Vishwanath and Amarnath debuted before the Mumbaikar. In his book Gavaskar called Hazare as the father of Indian batting and said that he modeled his batting based on another Bombay stalwart, Vijay Merchant.
 
Gavaskar is the father of modern Indian batting. Prior to him they used to back away to the quicks. But he got into line.

Everything since is based on him.

For someone who raves about the old eras of cricket so much, you don't seem to know much about that era any more than you do about the current one.

Tiger Pataudi
Vijay Hazare
Vijay Merchant


All who came before Sunny's time and all were great players of fast bowling.
 
For someone who raves about the old eras of cricket so much, you don't seem to know much about that era any more than you do about the current one.

Tiger Pataudi
Vijay Hazare
Vijay Merchant


All who came before Sunny's time and all were great players of fast bowling.

Pataudi II averaged 34 in tests, though he was arguably the world's best fielder. I don;t see that he can be considered a great player of quick bowling.

Merchant only played ten tests. He was interrupted by WW2 and never faced Larwood, Constantine, Lindwall and Miller. I suppose he is a Barry Richards figure, though he never faced the challenge of the big quicks in WSC like Richards did.

Fair call on Hazare who faced Lindwall & Miller in Australia and got two centuries. His big runs against England came in India though, while not facing Trueman.

I night not know much about old or new era cricket, but somehow I know that India did not win a series in England before Gavaskar, and he got four double centuries against WI, so his predecessors rather pale by comparison.
 
Pataudi II averaged 34 in tests, though he was arguably the world's best fielder. I don;t see that he can be considered a great player of quick bowling.

Merchant only played ten tests. He was interrupted by WW2 and never faced Larwood, Constantine, Lindwall and Miller. I suppose he is a Barry Richards figure, though he never faced the challenge of the big quicks in WSC like Richards did.

Fair call on Hazare who faced Lindwall & Miller in Australia and got two centuries. His big runs against England came in India though, while not facing Trueman.

I night not know much about old or new era cricket, but somehow I know that India did not win a series in England before Gavaskar, and he got four double centuries against WI, so his predecessors rather pale by comparison.

Most batsmen pale in comparison to Gavaskar. That is not a knock on any of them.

Gavaskar was clearly a few notches above all these players but that hardly means that these people couldn't face fast bowling - much less "back away" from it.

Even Mohinder Amarnath, who wasn't as high quality as Sunny, Haraze, Merchant didn't shy away from fast bowling. He took blows on his body time and again against the West Indian quicks. He put his body on the line. But he gave no quarter.

So to say that Gavaskar was the first Indian to play fast bowling well is a factually incorrect statement.
 
Most batsmen pale in comparison to Gavaskar. That is not a knock on any of them.

Gavaskar was clearly a few notches above all these players but that hardly means that these people couldn't face fast bowling - much less "back away" from it.

Even Mohinder Amarnath, who wasn't as high quality as Sunny, Haraze, Merchant didn't shy away from fast bowling. He took blows on his body time and again against the West Indian quicks. He put his body on the line. But he gave no quarter.

So to say that Gavaskar was the first Indian to play fast bowling well is a factually incorrect statement.

I didn’t say Amanarth backed away - he was after Gavaskar. Mine was a general comment about Indians before Gavaskar backing away, as they were observed to do against Trueman. Gavaskar inspired contemporary and later Indian batters to get in line against the quicks.
 
I didn’t say Amanarth backed away - he was after Gavaskar. Mine was a general comment about Indians before Gavaskar backing away, as they were observed to do against Trueman. Gavaskar inspired contemporary and later Indian batters to get in line against the quicks.

Amarnath is not "after Gavaskar". At the very least he is a contemporary of Gavaskar. Technically, he debuted before Gavaskar. More than a year before him, in fact.
 
speaking about being on point... what has Kapil got to do with this discussion about who is better between Sunny or SRT ? Que - Time to start wiggling, deflecting , switch topics the usual nautanki :91:

It's obviously because the same Sunil Gavaskar, whose graciousness towards Tendulkar you were using to try and troll with, has unequivocally stated that Kapil Dev is the greatest match winner India's ever had.




He absolutely was dropped for the irresponsible cricket he played. So it was purely cricket related. Also well known fact is that Sunny and Kapil never got along during their playing days. If BCCI had done something even remotely close as dropping SRT for whatever reason they would be quite literally lynched in broad daylight. Thats the difference between the stature of SRT and everyone else. You can whinge rant and rave all you want out of impotent frustration but that is the cold hard fact that I suggest you find ways to deal with for your own good. But I must admit - I hope you dont ... for the greater good of forum entertainment ... lol

It's funny because Tendulkar should have actually been kicked out for cricketing reasons in 2012-13. Batsmen like Rahane who were averaging 60+ in FC during that time had to sit at the sidelines seeing that selfish individual trying to complete 200 Tests by wasting the whole home season failing again and again :))




Except that Tendulkars stature was mostly earned in the 90s when he was a one man show and BCCI was still pretty much the same org that Sunny and Kapil had to work with.

Yeah and the marketing started from the 2000s onwards. Give Kapil and Sunny the hype hooplah 24x7 and they would be considered 2x the players Tendulkar was.




LMAO .. Every single player that SRT played with holds him in extreme high regard some even going to the extent of calling him Bhagwan and touching his feet all on live tv and on multiple occasions. Such is the reverence for the man and for very good reasons too. Not just empty words that every player will dish out if asked to comment on a team mate. No self respecting individual will do things like touching someones feet - especially if older - Your opinion means diddly squat here and you very well know it.

Sunny is on BCCI TV 24/7 for God knows how many years ... the only thing that he has managed to do is ruin any of the hard earned reputation from his playing days.

LOL Sunny wasn't trying to touch Sachin's feet like it happens in Hindu Tradition, he was just bowing down in graciousness. Seems like you need to steady on with the trolling a bit, because it's getting ridiculous now :))






No I dont. You know why? Because I dont think even you know what the fudge you are talking about otherwise you would have produced that post by now.
Yes I do know what you are going to post : NOTHING :))) And Iam right here and will be here long after you have run away from this thread as always. I have lost count of the threads that I have driven you out of .

Ok. Since you won't stop trolling, let's see how tou explain this:

Only if you go by Nostlagia influenced stories of old era fanatics .... I urge you to watch Hadlee trundle away at break neck speeds of 120 KPH ... no bowler will threaten anyone today at those speeds especially in Asia.


Mind you, the same Richard Hadlee took 18 wickets in 3 Matches at an average of 14 in the 1988-89 Tour of India. So, basically, you WON'T rate performances of as late as 1988 but have no problem in rating any cricket from 1990 onwards. :))) Try to make sense of this folks.
 
Yeah and the marketing started from the 2000s onwards. Give Kapil and Sunny the hype hooplah 24x7 and they would be considered 2x the players Tendulkar was.

Sorry for interjecting in this charming exchange, but this is not correct. The hype machine for Tendulkar was in full flow by the time the 1996 World Cup came around, basically it started as soon as Tendulkar had signed Mark Maschrenas as his agent in 1995.
 
Sorry for interjecting in this charming exchange, but this is not correct. The hype machine for Tendulkar was in full flow by the time the 1996 World Cup came around, basically it started as soon as Tendulkar had signed Mark Maschrenas as his agent in 1995.

Good point..
 
It's obviously because the same Sunil Gavaskar, whose graciousness towards Tendulkar you were using to try and troll with, has unequivocally stated that Kapil Dev is the greatest match winner India's ever had.


It's funny because Tendulkar should have actually been kicked out for cricketing reasons in 2012-13. Batsmen like Rahane who were averaging 60+ in FC during that time had to sit at the sidelines seeing that selfish individual trying to complete 200 Tests by wasting the whole home season failing again and again :))


Yeah and the marketing started from the 2000s onwards. Give Kapil and Sunny the hype hooplah 24x7 and they would be considered 2x the players Tendulkar was.


LOL Sunny wasn't trying to touch Sachin's feet like it happens in Hindu Tradition, he was just bowing down in graciousness.
Seems like you need to steady on with the trolling a bit, because it's getting ridiculous now :))

Lets resolve this too ....

https://www.news18.com/cricketnext/news/gavaskar-chunk-564108.html


"Who else has 93 international hundreds, who else has more than 14,000 ODI runs, who else has more than 17, 000 Test runs? Nobody. I would really like to bend down and touch his feet. If somebody is at that pedestal, I would like to do that," Gavaskar told CNN-IBN.

More sources : http://travel.cnn.com/mumbai/none/sachin-tendulkar-200-345549/

http://sachinist.blogspot.com/2010/02/i-want-to-touch-sachins-feet-gavaskar.html



The first little master Sunil Gavaskar was on CNN-IBN cursing himself (just like i am doing now) for missing the action live at the stadium, sharing his thoughts on sachin's record breaking performance and his wishes that this is just the beginning of some more special innings and greater things to be achieved by sachin in the future and the need for him to win the world cup. At the end, the anchor asked "Mr. Gavaskar, what would you say to sachin when you meet him next time".

Mr. Gavaskar replied "Well i want to bend down and touch his feet when we meet the next time. We touch the feet of the people who are at a high pedestal. Sachin is one of those people and i really want to do that."


Now what will be the next attempt to deflect, distract, change goalpost and discussion to more favorable topics to save your face ?


Ok. Since you won't stop trolling, let's see how tou explain this:

Mind you, the same Richard Hadlee took 18 wickets in 3 Matches at an average of 14 in the 1988-89 Tour of India. So, basically, you WON'T rate performances of as late as 1988 but have no problem in rating any cricket from 1990 onwards. :))) Try to make sense of this folks.

And the conclusion you are drawing from that post is that the year of the match it is played in is the reason for me not rating Hadlees performance ? Is that what you understood ?
 
Lets resolve this too ....

https://www.news18.com/cricketnext/news/gavaskar-chunk-564108.html


More sources : http://travel.cnn.com/mumbai/none/sachin-tendulkar-200-345549/

http://sachinist.blogspot.com/2010/02/i-want-to-touch-sachins-feet-gavaskar.html


Now what will be the next attempt to deflect, distract, change goalpost and discussion to more favorable topics to save your face ?

I was talking about the video you posted. But I must admit I underestimated Sunny's graciousness there. He has obviously been very generous in his praise for a much inferior batsman.



And the conclusion you are drawing from that post is that the year of the match it is played in is the reason for me not rating Hadlees performance ? Is that what you understood ?

So, what exactly is it then? Why exactly don't you rate a great performance in 1988 while you would have had no problem if the same performance in 1990 (the point from which Cricket suddenly became worth rating for you :)). I think we should first clarify that before you open another front to deflect the issue further.
 
I was talking about the video you posted.

It is about that video. A question was asked to Sunny by a journalist and he said he would touch Tendulkars feet. True to his word he went on to do that as seen from the video. Also the video I posted had a exchange between Robin Jackman and Sunny in which he further confirms this.


But I must admit I underestimated Sunny's graciousness there.
Let down by your "hero" ... must be devastating and heartbreaking :91:

He has obviously been very generous in his praise for a much inferior batsman.

See this is why you get trolled badly. No class or common sense whatsoever despite the complete shellacking you get on a regular basis. But like I said in Post#26 ... Enjoy the ownage for now. When done come back here and I will actually tell you why Tendulkar is the much superior player using whatever well known metric you want to use to measure batting quality.

So, what exactly is it then? Why exactly don't you rate a great performance in 1988


Its right there in that Post or should I use smaller words ?

while you would have had no problem if the same performance in 1990

Why don't you show me a post where I have rated a similar performance post 1990 ?

(the point from which Cricket suddenly became worth rating for you :)).

Again show me the post where I said "Cricket suddenly became worth rating after 1990"

I think we should first clarify that before you open another front to deflect the issue further.

The clarification will come right out of you ... usually in the form of silence or goal post shift. But look on the positive side you are still somehow here and not yet run away ... thats Progress indeed !!
 
It is about that video. A question was asked to Sunny by a journalist and he said he would touch Tendulkars feet. True to his word he went on to do that as seen from the video. Also the video I posted had a exchange between Robin Jackman and Sunny in which he further confirms this.



Let down by your "hero" ... must be devastating and heartbreaking :91:



See this is why you get trolled badly. No class or common sense whatsoever despite the complete shellacking you get on a regular basis. But like I said in Post#26 ... Enjoy the ownage for now. When done come back here and I will actually tell you why Tendulkar is the much superior player using whatever well known metric you want to use to measure batting quality.

So if Sunny thinks THAT highly of Tendulkar, why did he name Kapil as the greatest match winner India ever had? And that's after Tendulkar's retirement. Maybe you're right about Sunny taking his job as the BCCI marketing head pretty seriously. Because there is no reason for him to display that sort of reverence towards a batsman who was much inferior to himself.




Its right there in that Post or should I use smaller words ?



Why don't you show me a post where I have rated a similar performance post 1990 ?
Again show me the post where I said "Cricket suddenly became worth rating after 1990"

The clarification will come right out of you ... usually in the form of silence or goal post shift. But look on the positive side you are still somehow here and not yet run away ... thats Progress indeed !!

Oh, look at you trying to be cute there. :)) When you say that the speeds that Hadlee bowled to be mightily successful in 1988 won't be effective today, you obviously mean that that (by your line of reasoning) standards have drastically improved from 1988 to 2018. That's ok. I'll take your point completely. But baffles me then is you still have no problem in rating cricket of the 90s and singing hymns of Tendulkar's performances in the 90s when it was pretty much in the same era as 1988-89. What's up with that? Didn't the standards improve from say 1995 to 2018 like you keep banging on about?
 
So if Sunny thinks THAT highly of Tendulkar, why did he name Kapil as the greatest match winner India ever had? And that's after Tendulkar's retirement. Maybe you're right about Sunny taking his job as the BCCI marketing head pretty seriously. Because there is no reason for him to display that sort of reverence towards a batsman who was much inferior to himself.


This is like the saying ... pehelwan ki mooch mitti lag gayi lekin uski akkad nahi gayi .... lmao ... The more important question is why are you hanging onto to your fake Hero Gavaskar if you agree and convinced that he is doing BCCI's boot licking. Don't you go around lecturing how evil the BCCI is ?

Sunny has kind words for every great player ... previously he rated GRV as a better player than himself. But there is only one player he has so far bowed down to on live TV - Tendulkar. Deal with it. :91:



Oh, look at you trying to be cute there. :)) When you say that the speeds that Hadlee bowled to be mightily successful in 1988 won't be effective today, you obviously mean that that (by your line of reasoning) standards have drastically improved from 1988 to 2018. That's ok. I'll take your point completely.

You do? Damn :O ... then why the fudge are you arguing with me :)))

But baffles me then is you still have no problem in rating cricket of the 90s and singing hymns of Tendulkar's performances in the 90s when it was pretty much in the same era as 1988-89. What's up with that? Didn't the standards improve from say 1995 to 2018 like you keep banging on about?

Again where did I say that standards improved before/after a certain date ? I have told you numerous times that it doesnt work that way. I rate Wasim, Waqar, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop who were all product of the 80s. Similarly I dont rate Tendulkar scoring runs against the same Hadlee in 1990 for the same reason. The post that you quoted was about Hadlee and I told you why I dont rate him. What part of that translates into 1990s vs the rest ? Dont blame your lack of comprehension on me.

But why dont you enlighten us why you keep banging on about Sunny if you agree that the standards have improved drastically.
 
This is like the saying ... pehelwan ki mooch mitti lag gayi lekin uski akkad nahi gayi .... lmao ... The more important question is why are you hanging onto to your fake Hero Gavaskar if you agree and convinced that he is doing BCCI's boot licking. Don't you go around lecturing how evil the BCCI is ?

Sunny has kind words for every great player ... previously he rated GRV as a better player than himself. But there is only one player he has so far bowed down to on live TV - Tendulkar. Deal with it. :91:

Because funnily, despite "respecting" Sachin to the extent of bowing in front of him, Gavaskar still rated Kapil as India's greatest match winner. It obviously casts doubts over his praise for Tendulkar. He's definitely not being genuine in one of these cases. And since Sachin is the Golden child of BCCI with Sunny being the loyal BCCI guy that he is, there's hardly any doubt it's the former.




You do? Damn :O ... then why the fudge are you arguing with me :)))

I've already told this to you a thousand times that everything evolves with time and so does Cricket. It doesn't depend on whether you want it to evolve or not based on your preferences like you do :)).



Again where did I say that standards improved before/after a certain date ? I have told you numerous times that it doesnt work that way. I rate Wasim, Waqar, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop who were all product of the 80s. Similarly I dont rate Tendulkar scoring runs against the same Hadlee in 1990 for the same reason. The post that you quoted was about Hadlee and I told you why I dont rate him. What part of that translates into 1990s vs the rest ? Dont blame your lack of comprehension on me.

But why dont you enlighten us why you keep banging on about Sunny if you agree that the standards have improved drastically.

A 38 Year Old Hadlee averaged 24 in Tests and 18 in ODIs in the last two years of his career. Hardly the sort of species that seemed to be going extinct when the 90s started.

Funnily, your "butbutbut he bowled 120 kphs" theory was debunked just recently when a military medium pacer in Mohammad Abbas took 17 wickets in 2 Tests on the flattest tracks imaginable, the sort of tracks you think that sort of pace would NEVER work on in this day and age. So what's your next excuse?
 
Because funnily, despite "respecting" Sachin to the extent of bowing in front of him, Gavaskar still rated Kapil as India's greatest match winner. It obviously casts doubts over his praise for Tendulkar. He's definitely not being genuine in one of these cases. And since Sachin is the Golden child of BCCI with Sunny being the loyal BCCI guy that he is, there's hardly any doubt it's the former.

empty words vs reverence on Live TV going to the extent of touching his feet. I suggest you find ways to deal with the trauma of your "Hero" bowing down the player you despise. Ownage cant get any better.


I've already told this to you a thousand times that everything evolves with time and so does Cricket. It doesn't depend on whether you want it to evolve or not based on your preferences like you do :)).

And I told this even before you joined PP. So again the reason why you are still banging on about Sunny >SRT is .... ?


A 38 Year Old Hadlee averaged 24 in Tests and 18 in ODIs in the last two years of his career. Hardly the sort of species that seemed to be going extinct when the 90s started.

Funnily, your "butbutbut he bowled 120 kphs" theory was debunked just recently when a military medium pacer in Mohammad Abbas took 17 wickets in 2 Tests on the flattest tracks imaginable, the sort of tracks you think that sort of pace would NEVER work on in this day and age. So what's your next excuse?

Abbas bowls in the 130-133Ks range and is yet to play the big teams. The top speed for Hadlee on the other hand is 120Ks if we are being generous. There is no comparison whatsoever.
 
empty words vs reverence on Live TV going to the extent of touching his feet. I suggest you find ways to deal with the trauma of your "Hero" bowing down the player you despise. Ownage cant get any better.
And I told this even before you joined PP. So again the reason why you are still banging on about Sunny >SRT is .... ?

"Empty words". Seems like it's YOU who needs to get over the trauma of realizing that Gavaskar praising Tendulkar to that extent was basically a BCCI guy praising the BCCI golden goose. :))




Abbas bowls in the 130-133Ks range and is yet to play the big teams. The top speed for Hadlee on the other hand is 120Ks if we are being generous. There is no comparison whatsoever.

Wrong.

IyBEWpn.png


Abbas clocked an average of 129 kph.

Seeing the 1979 study on Fast bowling:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

Hadlee is still as fast, and it's pretty obvious that the measurement in the 1979 study is at the batsmen's end seeing the likes of Holding clocking barely 87 mph unlike today's speed measurements. Hadlee was comfortably faster. There goes another one of your little theories :))
 
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"Empty words". Seems like it's YOU who needs to get over the trauma of realizing that Gavaskar praising Tendulkar to that extent was basically a BCCI guy praising the BCCI golden goose. :))

So now you are going to tell me Words are better than touching feet ? Cant make this up .... :)))


Wrong.

IyBEWpn.png


Abbas clocked an average of 129 kph.

Seeing the 1979 study on Fast bowling:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

Hadlee is still as fast, and it's pretty obvious that the measurement in the 1979 study is at the batsmen's end seeing the likes of Holding clocking barely 87 mph unlike today's speed measurements. Hadlee was comfortably faster. There goes another one of your little theories :))

Come back here when he has taken 400+ Wkts bowling under 130Ks. Just aint happening:)))
 
So now you are going to tell me Words are better than touching feet ? Cant make this up .... :)))

You obviously missed the BCCI link. Predictable :)




Come back here when he has taken 400+ Wkts bowling under 130Ks. Just aint happening:)))


What a lousy way to admit that you got nothing else to say :)).

Just to freshen up your memory, this is what you wrote:

Only if you go by Nostlagia influenced stories of old era fanatics .... I urge you to watch Hadlee trundle away at break neck speeds of 120 KPH ... no bowler will threaten anyone today at those speeds especially in Asia.


Yeah, right. :))

Game, set and match.

No waiting for you to continue babbling saying the same stuff again and again which you've been debunked on and then finally claiming some sort of "victory" in this argument lol.
 
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While its true Gavaskar wasn't the among the best ODI player of his era. Certainly not Match winner as shown by just 1 century. One overlooked aspect was his high percentage of getting 50's.

[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]SR [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]50's per match % [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DM Jones (AUS) [/td][td]1984-1989 [/td][td]84 [/td][td]3044 [/td][td]45.43 [/td][td]75.57 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]27.38 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CG Greenidge (WI) [/td][td]1975-1989 [/td][td]116 [/td][td]4869 [/td][td]46.81 [/td][td]66.32 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]25.86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IVA Richards (WI) [/td][td]1975-1989 [/td][td]175 [/td][td]6442 [/td][td]48.43 [/td][td]90.96 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]25.14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Gavaskar (INDIA) [/td][td]1974-1987 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]3092 [/td][td]35.13 [/td][td]62.26 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]25.00 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GA Gooch (ENG) [/td][td]1976-1989 [/td][td]76 [/td][td]2996 [/td][td]41.61 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]23.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Javed Miandad (PAK) [/td][td]1975-1989 [/td][td]158 [/td][td]5343 [/td][td]44.15 [/td][td]69.17 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]23.42 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RB Richardson (WI) [/td][td]1983-1989 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]3530 [/td][td]34.6 [/td][td]61.75 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]23.33 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Zaheer Abbas (PAK) [/td][td]1974-1985 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]2572 [/td][td]47.62 [/td][td]84.8 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]20.97 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MD Crowe (NZ) [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]82 [/td][td]2455 [/td][td]34.09 [/td][td]74.62 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]20.73 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Haynes (WI) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]169 [/td][td]6338 [/td][td]43.41 [/td][td]63.97 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]20.71 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AJ Lamb (ENG) [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]89 [/td][td]3072 [/td][td]42.66 [/td][td]75.25 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]20.22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Rameez Raja (PAK) [/td][td]1985-1989 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]2840 [/td][td]30.86 [/td][td]64.48 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]19.39 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GS Chappell (AUS) [/td][td]1971-1983 [/td][td]74 [/td][td]2331 [/td][td]40.18 [/td][td]75.7 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]18.92 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DC Boon (AUS) [/td][td]1984-1989 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]2636 [/td][td]33.79 [/td][td]67.53 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]18.52 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DB Vengsarkar (INDIA) [/td][td]1976-1989 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]3417 [/td][td]35.22 [/td][td]67.59 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]17.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]K Srikkanth (INDIA) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]3486 [/td][td]29.05 [/td][td]72.17 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]17.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AR Border (AUS) [/td][td]1979-1989 [/td][td]194 [/td][td]4897 [/td][td]31.19 [/td][td]70.08 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]32 [/td][td]16.49 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GR Marsh (AUS) [/td][td]1986-1989 [/td][td]78 [/td][td]2923 [/td][td]40.04 [/td][td]56.85 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]15.38 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saleem Malik (PAK) [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]105 [/td][td]2803 [/td][td]32.97 [/td][td]86.14 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]15.24 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JG Wright (NZ) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]119 [/td][td]3183 [/td][td]27.2 [/td][td]56.4 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]15.13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GM Wood (AUS) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]83 [/td][td]2219 [/td][td]33.62 [/td][td]59.57 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]13.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mudassar Nazar (PAK) [/td][td]1977-1989 [/td][td]122 [/td][td]2653 [/td][td]25.26 [/td][td]51.71 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]13.11 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RJ Shastri (INDIA) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]119 [/td][td]2323 [/td][td]29.03 [/td][td]65.52 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]11.76 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MW Gatting (ENG) [/td][td]1977-1989 [/td][td]85 [/td][td]2049 [/td][td]31.52 [/td][td]71.12 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]10.59 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DI Gower (ENG) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]105 [/td][td]3030 [/td][td]32.23 [/td][td]76.01 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]10.48 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AL Logie (WI) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]114 [/td][td]2213 [/td][td]36.27 [/td][td]73.39 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]9.65 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]1978-1989 [/td][td]149 [/td][td]2940 [/td][td]26.48 [/td][td]101.44 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]9.40 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1974-1989 [/td][td]136 [/td][td]2759 [/td][td]32.45 [/td][td]74.87 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]8.82 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Azharuddin (INDIA) [/td][td]1985-1989 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]2252 [/td][td]31.27 [/td][td]68.3 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]7.14 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

I think Gavaskar had a grave dislike for ODI cricket for quite some time in his career owing to which he didn't really take it all that seriously until India's WC win, like many batting greats of the 2000s didn't take T20 seriously and felt it was beneath them.

But just to put it out there: in the second half of his ODI career (after WC 1983), he averaged 42.35 in 71 ODIs. He had a great WC 1987 as well scoring 300 runs averaging 50 and with a SR of 80.

Gavaskar was just too great a player to fail at any form of cricket. In the second half of his career he had become a very good ODI batsman as well on top of being one of the greatest Test batsmen of all time.
 
You obviously missed the BCCI link. Predictable :)


And the same Evil link doesn't bother you when he is talking highly of others? How typical :)))


What a lousy way to admit that you got nothing else to say :)).

Just to freshen up your memory, this is what you wrote:




Yeah, right. :))

Game, set and match.

No waiting for you to continue babbling saying the same stuff again and again which you've been debunked on and then finally claiming some sort of "victory" in this argument lol.

ohhh wait I forgot about your other theory where performing in 10 test matches is just as good as performing in 50 ... I should know better and last time I checked 130k was faster than 120ks lol
 
And the same Evil link doesn't bother you when he is talking highly of others? How typical :)))




ohhh wait I forgot about your other theory where performing in 10 test matches is just as good as performing in 50 ... I should know better and last time I checked 130k was faster than 120ks lol

Prove that Hadlee was bowling 120 kph. I've already given you a link where Hadlee was timed at 129 kph in a study where the likes of Holding were timed at 141 (obviously at the batsmen's end), Hadlee was easily 135+ at his peak.
 
Prove that Hadlee was bowling 120 kph. I've already given you a link where Hadlee was timed at 129 kph in a study where the likes of Holding were timed at 141 (obviously at the batsmen's end), Hadlee was easily 135+ at his peak.

There is absolutely no truth whatsoever in the claim that these speeds were measured at the batsmans end. That nonsense was started by Thommo and is one of the biggest flat out lie. The professor who measured those timings has himself confirmed that. Moreover the video itself had that information ... sadly that longer version video was deleted by youtube and now only a very brief video exists which does not have that information. Here is my post from last year and the link to the original video.


BTW the fact about speeds measured being release speeds in that 1978/79 speed measurement video I posed is in that video itself at about 15:00

https://youtu.be/uRlyFVCLOr4?t=14m55s

after Wayne Daniel bowls a full toss the guy who is commentating on the tests says : "lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "


However I did download that original video and I can upload it temporarily if you don't believe me. Let me know.
 
There is absolutely no truth whatsoever in the claim that these speeds were measured at the batsmans end. That nonsense was started by Thommo and is one of the biggest flat out lie. The professor who measured those timings has himself confirmed that. Moreover the video itself had that information ... sadly that longer version video was deleted by youtube and now only a very brief video exists which does not have that information. Here is my post from last year and the link to the original video.





However I did download that original video and I can upload it temporarily if you don't believe me. Let me know.

I highly doubt it. Since Holding was timed at 150+ in the 1975 and 1976 studies. Him being 141 in the 1979 study makes no sense whatsoever if the speeds were measured at the same end in both the studies.

Regardless, Hadlee was still measured at 129 kph in the 1979 study which is Mohammad Abbas pace, a guy who just took 17 wickets in 2 Tests on absolute roads, hence rendering your point null and void anyway.
 
I highly doubt it. Since Holding was timed at 150+ in the 1975 and 1976 studies. Him being 141 in the 1979 study makes no sense whatsoever if the speeds were measured at the same end in both the studies.

I have uploaded the video to youtube but not made it public yet. Let me know when you are ready and I will turn it on for a short time to avoid any copyright issues.

Regardless, Hadlee was still measured at 129 kph in the 1979 study which is Mohammad Abbas pace, a guy who just took 17 wickets in 2 Tests on absolute roads, hence rendering your point null and void anyway.

That was Hadlee in his 20s and thats his fastest speed in fast bowling competition. His speeds were much lower in real match conditions having to bowl for long spells. Besides per his own words he reduced his speed after that. You watch him bowl and it is obvious that he aint a 130K+ bowler. However I will still pretend that Abbas is also of similar speeds but he aint getting 400 Wkts if he continues to bowl at those speeds.
 
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