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The Wrestling Discussion Thread

shaz619 said:
It is battered but to be fair his work & rehabilitation has been handled really well by the WWE and as we’ve seen, he can generate big $$$$$ without being there every week like a sort of special attraction. You have to say even his biggest critics would not have expected the run he has had post injury.
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He had a couple of bad injuries in AEW but even there he was basically working matches every week at one one point. Maybe it's recency bias or the fact that modern wrestling has nosedived so drastically, but to me his work has gotten even better since his return. As wrestling fans, we are lucky to be able to witness this golden run.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You know I was thinking. They could have added Punk to this WarGames match. Heyman could have brought him in as the fifth man. Obviously first Heyman would have to return. But it would have atleast made more sense than Rollins being in this match.
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I'm glad Triple H visited PP, opened this thread and listened to my suggestion.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
He had a couple of bad injuries in AEW but even there he was basically working matches every week at one one point. Maybe it's recency bias or the fact that modern wrestling has nosedived so drastically, but to me his work has gotten even better since his return. As wrestling fans, we are lucky to be able to witness this golden run.
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I don’t think so man, it’s a bit like when Shawn came back. It seems ridiculous to suggest, because they are/were so far out of their prime & had amazing initial stints, but this is the beauty of wrestling and personified ATG’s. And therefore it is not crazy in my opinion to suggest Punk is better then ever before in terms of his output and he is also in the best shape of his life as well. Shawn obviously worked for a big stretch during the second stint and I doubt they will get another 7-8 years out of Punk, but even if it’s half off that overall it will be enough to vindicate our view.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
He had a couple of bad injuries in AEW but even there he was basically working matches every week at one one point. Maybe it's recency bias or the fact that modern wrestling has nosedived so drastically, but to me his work has gotten even better since his return. As wrestling fans, we are lucky to be able to witness this golden run.
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Storytellers are rare in modern wrestling. It's more about spots. Fast paced wrestling is good but quickly loses its shine if there's no story. It's also become cool to hate on The Rock these days but he's another one whose sole focus is stories and he is much much better at it than he is in movies.
 
shaz619 said:
And am reading Charlotte could be coming back to!! and apparently attacked Jade?

Speaking of which, what is your honest opinion of Jade’s run in the WWE so far
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Jade's too green. Would have been great had she spent more time in NXT and Performance center.
 
Kevin Owen's promo last night was probably his best in WWE. It was fantastic and perfectly cut. You can sympathize for him as well and if it happens in Canada, KO will be the default face.
 
shaz619 said:
And am reading Charlotte could be coming back to!! and apparently attacked Jade?

Speaking of which, what is your honest opinion of Jade’s run in the WWE so far
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That could be interesting. I'm tired of them making her a babyface every time she comes back. I think she's another one who operates best as a heel. And its been a long time since we've gotten a proper heel run from her.

Jade's run so far has been okay I think. Not great. It's definitely lacking that oomph factor that should be there with someone that looks like her. Right now it feels like we are just waiting for Biance Belair to turn on her. I would be more interested to see how she does when she's a single. For now, I'd say the jury's still out.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Kevin Owen's promo last night was probably his best in WWE. It was fantastic and perfectly cut. You can sympathize for him as well and if it happens in Canada, KO will be the default face.
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Yeah this entire transformation of his has been great to watch. KO has proven with this angle why he's one of the best in the biz and someone who doesn't get nearly enough credit for his work in the ring and on the mic. @shaz619 KO v Punk would be absolute box-office. I think they even teased it once when Punk was on SD. Unlike his empty-headed friends in the other company, KO is willing to put his personal feelings about someone aside in the interest of doing business and making money.
 
shaz619 said:
I don’t think so man, it’s a bit like when Shawn came back. It seems ridiculous to suggest, because they are/were so far out of their prime & had amazing initial stints, but this is the beauty of wrestling and personified ATG’s. And therefore it is not crazy in my opinion to suggest Punk is better then ever before in terms of his output and he is also in the best shape of his life as well. Shawn obviously worked for a big stretch during the second stint and I doubt they will get another 7-8 years out of Punk, but even if it’s half off that overall it will be enough to vindicate our view.
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That's a good point. Physically, I don't think he has ever been in such great shape. And as a storyteller he has evolved so much. His matches are more deliberately paced now but it's like the Bret Hart principle where everything happens for a reason. And obviously it helps that he's a big star now and doesn't have to deal with Vince or bad creative. He has the creative freedom to do his own thing. And it's great, because he just gets it. He understands what makes great pro-wrestling.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
That could be interesting. I'm tired of them making her a babyface every time she comes back. I think she's another one who operates best as a heel. And its been a long time since we've gotten a proper heel run from her.

Jade's run so far has been okay I think. Not great. It's definitely lacking that oomph factor that should be there with someone that looks like her. Right now it feels like we are just waiting for Biance Belair to turn on her. I would be more interested to see how she does when she's a single. For now, I'd say the jury's still out.
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Charlotte agrees with you to lol:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849480727718441368

And you know what, I might be a minority but I feel like AEW were using Jade well which is so weird to say right but I have to be honest.

As @BunnyRabbit said, maybe she should have remained in NXT or at the minimum, working in the performance centre for an extended period.

I also blame the booking, H is not good at creating big stars and has crippled Jade’s potential a bit. I think at this point someone like Charlotte and a heel turn is needed to help her, and anyone who works with her, generally benefit massively from the experience. However, Charlotte is also at that point in her career where fans see how special she is and realise she wont be around for too long so there’s massive baby face heat on her, similar to Orton as well.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
That's a good point. Physically, I don't think he has ever been in such great shape. And as a storyteller he has evolved so much. His matches are more deliberately paced now but it's like the Bret Hart principle where everything happens for a reason. And obviously it helps that he's a big star now and doesn't have to deal with Vince or bad creative. He has the creative freedom to do his own thing. And it's great, because he just gets it. He understands what makes great pro-wrestling.
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Shawn was a different case. He was just so natural for pro wrestling that he could do it in his sleep. He wouldn't show any sign of pain or injury on screen even if he was carrying one when he was on screen. He was just so good at it. I have never seen another guy who felt more at home while wrestling than Shawn did. He could still come out of retirement today and put 90% of the current guys to shame. He's like the Daniel Day Lewis of pro wrestling.
 
shaz619 said:
Biggest match today in terms of the appeal for both casuals and pure wrestling fans.
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I guess fans don't realize yet how special Roman is. He has worked extremely hard to become the biggest name in pro wrestling today and it would have been criminal to think he would have reached here if it was still 2018.
Roman is leagues ahead of his Shield brothers Seth and Mox. I was watching a triple threat match of the three back in NXT/FCW and a green Roman was being carried by Seth and Mox there. Fast forward today, the guy has proven his mettle to stand toe to toe with all the faces of WWE.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I guess fans don't realize yet how special Roman is. He has worked extremely hard to become the biggest name in pro wrestling today and it would have been criminal to think he would have reached here if it was still 2018.
Roman is leagues ahead of his Shield brothers Seth and Mox. I was watching a triple threat match of the three back in NXT/FCW and a green Roman was being carried by Seth and Mox there. Fast forward today, the guy has proven his mettle to stand toe to toe with all the faces of WWE.
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Not to mention the unfair abuse he had to endure during his push, I was a big supporter of his during those days as well, he just had the IT factor and it was only a matter of time he would explode, even then you need a thick skin to have made it through all he did. I just think behind the scenes he had a bigger fight with his health long before we knew and that made him even more resilient
 
shaz619 said:
Not to mention the unfair abuse he had to endure during his push, I was a big supporter of his during those days as well, he just had the IT factor and it was only a matter of time he would explode, even then you need a thick skin to have made it through all he did. I just think behind the scenes he had a bigger fight with his health long before we knew and that made him even more resilient
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I don't think any other wrestler has faced more abuse than what Roman went through from 2015-2019. I wasn't a fan of his over push even when WWE even used it to troll the audience like they did by having him arrive at no.30 in 2017 Rumble before proceeding to eliminate everyone (including Undertaker) only for Randy to eliminate him and get cheered massively while being a heel. They repeated the same formula in 2018 and 2020 as well by having Nakamura and Drew eliminate Roman in the end to get those cheers from his detractors. I think fans had softened up for him during 2020 Rumble after his cancer battle was made public.
 
shaz619 said:
Charlotte agrees with you to lol:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849480727718441368

And you know what, I might be a minority but I feel like AEW were using Jade well which is so weird to say right but I have to be honest.

As @BunnyRabbit said, maybe she should have remained in NXT or at the minimum, working in the performance centre for an extended period.

I also blame the booking, H is not good at creating big stars and has crippled Jade’s potential a bit. I think at this point someone like Charlotte and a heel turn is needed to help her, and anyone who works with her, generally benefit massively from the experience. However, Charlotte is also at that point in her career where fans see how special she is and realise she wont be around for too long so there’s massive baby face heat on her, similar to Orton as well.
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I though her AEW run was okay. It was good in-terms of making people take notice of her. The presentation was definitely very well-done. But booking-wise she kinda just stayed in the same place beating mid-carders or jobbers every week. She didn't have any feuds with top stars like Britt Baker, Jamie Hayter, Toni Storm. And I don't think enough was done to improve her wrestling ability. She had that feud with Statlander when it was obvious that she was leaving.

Speaking of which, Statlander is another female wrestler with amazing potential, if she can keep her injuries in check. She had an outstanding match with Mercedes last night at Full Gear. And this is coming off an excellent match against Willow Nightingale at All Out. Definitely someone that WWE should keep their eye on. She has size and in-ring ability. Promos could use some work but hey, you can't get everything.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I guess fans don't realize yet how special Roman is. He has worked extremely hard to become the biggest name in pro wrestling today and it would have been criminal to think he would have reached here if it was still 2018.
Roman is leagues ahead of his Shield brothers Seth and Mox. I was watching a triple threat match of the three back in NXT/FCW and a green Roman was being carried by Seth and Mox there. Fast forward today, the guy has proven his mettle to stand toe to toe with all the faces of WWE.
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Yeah, Seth unfortunately could never get the promo aspect down. He just comes off as boring most times. And I am talking about him without this current cringelord gimmick. As an in-ring talent he is very good but he's more likely to be the guy working with the guy who is drawing money, rather than be the one who is drawing money.

Mox is just a different guy. Despite his talents, he is too enamored by deathmatch wrestling, MMA and pop-culture and has his own vision of wrestling that is oftentimes a combination of these things, and doesn't always align with logic or the conventional norms of pro-wrestling. He was never cut out for the WWE system.

Roman checks all the boxes and has reached greatness levels with his current run.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Yeah, Seth unfortunately could never get the promo aspect down. He just comes off as boring most times. And I am talking about him without this current cringelord gimmick. As an in-ring talent he is very good but he's more likely to be the guy working with the guy who is drawing money, rather than be the one who is drawing money.

Mox is just a different guy. Despite his talents, he is too enamored by deathmatch wrestling, MMA and pop-culture and has his own vision of wrestling that is oftentimes a combination of these things, and doesn't always align with logic or the conventional norms of pro-wrestling. He was never cut out for the WWE system.

Roman checks all the boxes and has reached greatness levels with his current run.
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Seth is basically this era's Trips.

Mox is extremely weird. He is not a loose canon. It's just that he has no regard of what is good from business point of view. And he probably doesn't care about how good or how bad his company is doing. Not really the sharpest tool in the shed IMO.

Roman is definitely the only one who has can go the distance every time and has a brilliant thinking mind. It was probably the last great shot Vince played when he handpicked him to be the face of the company. Although his character and his booking weren't that good as we all know.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I though her AEW run was okay. It was good in-terms of making people take notice of her. The presentation was definitely very well-done. But booking-wise she kinda just stayed in the same place beating mid-carders or jobbers every week. She didn't have any feuds with top stars like Britt Baker, Jamie Hayter, Toni Storm. And I don't think enough was done to improve her wrestling ability. She had that feud with Statlander when it was obvious that she was leaving.

Speaking of which, Statlander is another female wrestler with amazing potential, if she can keep her injuries in check. She had an outstanding match with Mercedes last night at Full Gear. And this is coming off an excellent match against Willow Nightingale at All Out. Definitely someone that WWE should keep their eye on. She has size and in-ring ability. Promos could use some work but hey, you can't get everything.
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I doubt AEW signs anyone to improve their skills. AEW has no development system. The only guys who have improved there has been due to themselves learning from established guys they have signed.
 
shaz619 said:
Not to mention the unfair abuse he had to endure during his push, I was a big supporter of his during those days as well, he just had the IT factor and it was only a matter of time he would explode, even then you need a thick skin to have made it through all he did. I just think behind the scenes he had a bigger fight with his health long before we knew and that made him even more resilient
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Can't say I was one of those ppl. I just didn't see it. And Vince's attempts to keep shoving him down our throats as this white meat babyface that said lines like sufferin' sukkatash just didn't work. I'm glad he finally just said enough is enough and if you want me as your top star we are going to do things my way. And he hasn't looked back since. He is one of the biggest reasons why WWE has gone through this incredible boom period 2022-onwards. And to be such a major draw in an era when many people thought that all money-drawing stars were all but gone, is nothing short of incredible.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Seth is basically this era's Trips.

Mox is extremely weird. He is not a loose canon. It's just that he has no regard of what is good from business point of view. And he probably doesn't care about how good or how bad his company is doing. Not really the sharpest tool in the shed IMO.

Roman is definitely the only one who has can go the distance every time and has a brilliant thinking mind. It was probably the last great shot Vince played when he handpicked him to be the face of the company. Although his character and his booking weren't that good as we all know.
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Yeah pretty much.

Haha personally I find Mox to be entertaining. It's hard to explain with him...even when his stuff is so obviously illogical and makes zero sense, he is really fun to watch. He definitely has a certain charisma to him, which makes him captivating to watch even when he is spouting utter nonsense. It's a shame he gives in to his worst instincts some times. Because if he was produced and put in compelling, logical storylines, I think he could be on-par with the best in the business. When I first saw The Shield, Mox was immediately the one who stood out to me most, and the one I thought would go the farthest out of all three. I think his book is a must-read for any wrestling fan. It's a really interesting and unfiltered look inside his mind.

Yeah credit to Vince for seeing something in him. Even if Vince didn't know exactly what it was. Some people would say that Roman going through all that was necessary to get where he got. But I would disagree with that. We didn't need four years of that. But I guess what matters now is that we are here.
 

Stumbled upon this recently. Brings back memories.

Right to Censor was my 3rd favorite stable of all time (after Evolution and Radicalz).
 
sweep_shot said:

Stumbled upon this recently. Brings back memories.

Right to Censor was my 3rd favorite stable of all time (after Evolution and Radicalz).
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LMAO peak Attitude Era jobber stable. Back when jobber stables could actually be fun and entertaining.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
LMAO peak Attitude Era jobber stable. Back when jobber stables could actually be fun and entertaining.
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If I remember correctly, during their earlier days, they were not jobbers.

They won the tag titles from Hardy Boyz. Ivory won the women's title.

As a kid, I used to be irritated by them. But, I appreciate the stable now as a grown up. LOL.
 
sweep_shot said:
If I remember correctly, during their earlier days, they were not jobbers.

They won the tag titles from Hardy Boyz. Ivory won the women's title.

As a kid, I used to be irritated by them. But, I appreciate the stable now as a grown up. LOL.
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They were basically created as a shot at various groups that were criticizing WWF's programming at the time. I think they started off as a heel stable but became a jobber stable within a few months. They were definitely relegated to jobber level by WrestleMania 17. The funniest thing about their group was the inclusion of The Godfather and Val Venis---a former pimp and a former pornstar, who we were led to believe had changed their ways and were now devoted to promoting morality and family values lol.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
They were basically created as a shot at various groups that were criticizing WWF's programming at the time. I think they started off as a heel stable but became a jobber stable within a few months. They were definitely relegated to jobber level by WrestleMania 17. The funniest thing about their group was the inclusion of The Godfather and Val Venis---a former pimp and a former pornstar, who we were led to believe had changed their ways and were now devoted to promoting morality and family values lol.
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Yes. It was a parody group.

I think they have done a good job. The stable was entertaining overall.

This was a very good RTC segment with The Rock:
 
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sweep_shot said:
Yes. It was a parody group.

I think they have done a good job. The stable was entertaining overall.

This was a very good RTC segment with The Rock:
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I agree, I'm not criticizing them. 2000-01 was probably the peak of WWF. Everything from up and down the card was fantastic and entertaining as hell. Even jobber stables like RTC.
 
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Full Gear was meh. But there were a few things on this PPV worth mentioning:

Mercedes Mone v Kris Statlander: This was a fantastic match and with some good psychology and some seriously smooth and well-executed maneuvers from Mercedes. The contrast of styles worked really well. Overall, I think this was easily Mercedes's best match in AEW so far, and an excellent showing for Kris Statlander.

Will Ospreay v Kyle Fletcher: This felt more like an attempt by Ospreay to turn Fletcher into a star rather than an something organic, because this storyline has been awkwardly executed and Fletcher is hard to take seriously as this supposedly dastardly heel. But still, this was an entertaining, fast-paced match. Ospreay can probably have a great match in his sleep at this point. This match also included a jumping tombstone piledriver off the apron onto the steel steps, which looked cool as hell but something I hope they don't do again for their own sake.

Bobby Lashley v Swerve Strickland: As a match this was pretty good, but for this storyline and as Lashley's PPV debut, this was outstanding. It didn't go on too long and Swerve's speed and craftiness matched up well with Lashley's raw power and physical prowess. Swerve had some openings but on the whole, Lashley was dominant and won decisively. Exactly what it needed to be and the post-match angle made you want to tune in to see what happens next.

The Hurt Syndicate have been booked to perfection in AEW and its amazing how out of place their stuff feels with the rest of this show.
 
I was a firefighter and boxer before The Rock’s dad taught me to wrestle and I beat John Cena to win WWE title

As one of WWE’s greatest ever stars, John Cena’s high profile wins are many and plenty.

To a generation of wrestling fans, Cena was unbeatable and a superhero, toppling all who came before him in the name of good triumphing over evil in the wacky world that is WWE.

Now, Cena barely performs at all, wrestling just once in 2024 as he lines up what’s sure to be a memorable retirement tour ahead of his hanging up the jorts next year.

His time in the ring is now largely focused on helping others shine at his expense – with Austin Theory and Solo Sikoa amongst those who have scored major victories over the multi-time former champion in recent years.

Cena has suffered other big and surprising setbacks in his time – though not all stick in the memory.

In 2005, the leader of the Cenation was still on the way up, transitioning from the mid-card scene in WWE as its United States Champion and into the main event scene that he’d go on to dominate for many a year.

He toppled John Bradshaw Layfield – JBL – to win the WWE Championship for the first time at WrestleMania 21, but there was a bump in the road on the way there.

To cement Cena as a major player, the company needed to take away the US title he was holding at the time, and Orlando Jordan was the perfect foil to help further the feud between the JBL and the would-be challenger to the WWE title.

JBL, then WWE Champ, and Cena were already at odds when Jordan challenged Cena for the gold on an episode of SmackDown from Albany, New York.

At the time, Jordan had been appointed Chief of Staff in the ‘Cabinet’ of JBL who, largely reigned over pretty much everyone else the SmackDown roster.

With a bit of help from his ‘boss’, the New Jersey native pulled off a shock result and toppled Cena to win the US title, his first and only WWE championship in arguably the biggest moment of his career.

“It was great,” the man himself later recalled in an interview. “Being United States Champion is not a small feat at all.

“Anybody that remembers my reign… we [he and JBL] dominated SmackDown during those times and, at one point, I was the only Champion on SmackDown for a while.

“We had a great, strong run and we proved it on paper as far as revenue and attendances… we kicked [rival show] Raw’s butt most of the time.”

Jordan had joined WWE in 2001, spending his formative years wrestling in preliminary matches before a first major match – ironically against Cena – in 2003.

A powerful collegiate wrestler, he’d already lived a life before turning to wrestling. He fought forest fires in the US Fire Service before swapping the hose for the boxing ring in the sports’ amateur ranks.

With wrestling later in his sights, Jordan was trained by Rocky Johnson, father to WWE icon and acting sensation Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson.

From there, he wrestled on the independents before being snapped up by WWE.

After beating Cena, his reign as United States Champion lasted six months before he was eventually unseated by Chris Benoit in less than 30 seconds at SummerSlam in the same year.

Jordan featured in very few meaningful WWE storylines after that and departed in in 2006 having also faced Brock Lesnar and teamed with The Undertaker, going on to feature in TNA and back on the independent scene.

Wrestling for Italy-based company NWE, he became world champion in 2008 before losing that gold to wrestling legend The Ultimate Warrior in what proved to be the star’s last ever match.

Jordan, meanwhile, has continued to wrestle intermittently over the last decade, and performed at an ASWA show in Australia in June 2024.

talksport.com

The firefighter and boxer trained by The Rock's dad who beat John Cena

As one of WWE’s greatest ever stars, John Cena’s high profile wins are many and plenty. To a generation of wrestling fans, Cena was unbeatable and a superhero, toppling all who came before him in t…
talksport.com talksport.com
 
Ngl this was sweet to watch.

So much for the people who call Punk a 'locker-room cancer'.

Also LOL at Triple H wanting to take a picture with him. Incase there was any doubt what a shill H is for the IWC.

 
Survivor Series this year didn't feel like a big 4 event. Apart from CM Punk and Roman's storyline, everything else was a filler.
Damien Gunther was plagued by another Balor interference (when is that rivalry getting over?) would have been better to book Dom vs Gunther instead.
Triple Threat IC match was fine but I'd actually prefer a singles no bs Sheamus Breakker match instead.
Nakamura's new look and character looks promising. Was expecting a bigger reign from Knight though.
Women wargames match was a bit slow if anything. And Liv-Rhea-Raquel feud seems like it's been going on for years.
A well wrestled PPV but nothing extraordinary apart from the final 20 minutes of the mainevent.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Survivor Series this year didn't feel like a big 4 event. Apart from CM Punk and Roman's storyline, everything else was a filler.
Damien Gunther was plagued by another Balor interference (when is that rivalry getting over?) would have been better to book Dom vs Gunther instead.
Triple Threat IC match was fine but I'd actually prefer a singles no bs Sheamus Breakker match instead.
Nakamura's new look and character looks promising. Was expecting a bigger reign from Knight though.
Women wargames match was a bit slow if anything. And Liv-Rhea-Raquel feud seems like it's been going on for years.
A well wrestled PPV but nothing extraordinary apart from the final 20 minutes of the mainevent.
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I only watched the main event, WWE PPV’s are generally so predictable.

Also, why bother going for pinfalls until all the furniture has been smashed, we all know by now the match is not ending until the tables have been used.
 
The socials for Punk & Reigns went crazy, biggest match in wrestling, should plan it sooner rather then later really
 
One thing though for sure is that these 2nd gen wrestlers are naturals in the ring and have fitted in so seamlessly into the WWE set up and a major storyline on national TV, that can’t be easy.

Jimmy bounced around which was good for him, maybe the Tonga brothers should have been given more of a spotlight as well. The booking of Bronson Reed has been good though I don’t think he should be be doing so many high spots every week.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Survivor Series this year didn't feel like a big 4 event. Apart from CM Punk and Roman's storyline, everything else was a filler.
Damien Gunther was plagued by another Balor interference (when is that rivalry getting over?) would have been better to book Dom vs Gunther instead.
Triple Threat IC match was fine but I'd actually prefer a singles no bs Sheamus Breakker match instead.
Nakamura's new look and character looks promising. Was expecting a bigger reign from Knight though.
Women wargames match was a bit slow if anything. And Liv-Rhea-Raquel feud seems like it's been going on for years.
A well wrestled PPV but nothing extraordinary apart from the final 20 minutes of the mainevent.
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shaz619 said:
I only watched the main event, WWE PPV’s are generally so predictable.

Also, why bother going for pinfalls until all the furniture has been smashed, we all know by now the match is not ending until the tables have been used.
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I loved the main-event and thought this was the best WarGames match that they have done since bringing it to the main-roster. From a storytelling perspective it was pure cinema and I am glad the furniture was kept to a minimum. And adding Punk to the match brought a really interesting dynamic with Roman, that had a great pay-off.

Other than that, I thought the triple threat was fairly entertaining.

Not sure what they are doing with L.A Knight. He has been booked very badly since winning the US title.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I loved the main-event and thought this was the best WarGames match that they have done since bringing it to the main-roster. From a storytelling perspective it was pure cinema and I am glad the furniture was kept to a minimum. And adding Punk to the match brought a really interesting dynamic with Roman, that had a great pay-off.

Other than that, I thought the triple threat was fairly entertaining.

Not sure what they are doing with L.A Knight. He has been booked very badly since winning the US title.
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I never enjoyed it as much as yourself but agree the story elements were executed well with their future plans in mind, I guess even if it wasn’t all that, it served its purpose to build to future events. But watching this I felt the classic 5v5 would have been much better and WarGames should be saved for maybe another event.

H fumbled LAK so badly. This new vicious Nakamura seems promising though, I think Nakamura has bulldozed the legacy of Okada
 
Also don’t think there’s a lot to differentiate between Gunther’s IC and WHC reigns, H has been utter tripe booking the champions, anyone who doesn’t prefer creative control is not really getting much help from him
 
shaz619 said:
I never enjoyed it as much as yourself but agree the story elements were executed well with their future plans in mind, I guess even if it wasn’t all that, it served its purpose to build to future events. But watching this I felt the classic 5v5 would have been much better and WarGames should be saved for maybe another event.

H fumbled LAK so badly. This new vicious Nakamura seems promising though, I think Nakamura has bulldozed the legacy of Okada
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I don't think Wargames should be used as a PPV. It sorta takes away the intrigue. It's very much similar to what they did with HIAC as a PPV with 3-4 HIAC matches at the event without much reason other than it being a HIAC event.

I think Okada has a higher ceiling than Nakamura. He has better mic skills and comedic timing too. Not sure if he can cut serious promos in English though.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I loved the main-event and thought this was the best WarGames match that they have done since bringing it to the main-roster. From a storytelling perspective it was pure cinema and I am glad the furniture was kept to a minimum. And adding Punk to the match brought a really interesting dynamic with Roman, that had a great pay-off.

Other than that, I thought the triple threat was fairly entertaining.

Not sure what they are doing with L.A Knight. He has been booked very badly since winning the US title.
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Yes but Wargames match goes on for a bit too long without a pinfall attempt till everyone has entered and that takes 20-25 mins.
I think that Jimmy splash from the top of the cage was executed beautifully.
WWE needs to do more than just 5 matches per PPV.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I don't think Wargames should be used as a PPV. It sorta takes away the intrigue. It's very much similar to what they did with HIAC as a PPV with 3-4 HIAC matches at the event without much reason other than it being a HIAC event.

I think Okada has a higher ceiling than Nakamura. He has better mic skills and comedic timing too. Not sure if he can cut serious promos in English though.
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I said another event, not a PPV called WarGames, would be a bit much. It’s already diluted being used at SS.

I’ve watched both for many years and had no doubt Nakamura would be a huge star in NA due to his charisma and western interests, the way he reinvented himself in Japan to make himself a household name through his shear character work was impressive, and then when the bell rang he was a bad ass, and out the ring to. You didn’t need to know Japanese to get his shtick. Easily the most successful Japanese wrestler across multiple continents since The Great Muta.

Okada was phenomenal in the ring and had a great personality to go with it, but there were always question marks on how that would translate in the US for me because he wasn’t naturally charismatic like Nakamura, part of it is booking, but the comedy gig is no better then what Akira Tozawa has done during his NA run, in fact I’d argue that Tozawa has been more successful within the confines of his role then Okada has with AEW if that’s what you’re talking about, but I’ve not personally experienced his great mic skills or microphone timing.
 
shaz619 said:
I said another event, not a PPV called WarGames, would be a bit much. It’s already diluted being used at SS.

I’ve watched both for many years and had no doubt Nakamura would be a huge star in NA due to his charisma and western interests, the way he reinvented himself in Japan to make himself a household name through his shear character work was impressive, and then when the bell rang he was a bad ass, and out the ring to. You didn’t need to know Japanese to get his shtick. Easily the most successful Japanese wrestler across multiple continents since The Great Muta.

Okada was phenomenal in the ring and had a great personality to go with it, but there were always question marks on how that would translate in the US for me because he wasn’t naturally charismatic like Nakamura, part of it is booking, but the comedy gig is no better then what Akira Tozawa has done during his NA run, in fact I’d argue that Tozawa has been more successful within the confines of his role then Okada has with AEW if that’s what you’re talking about, but I’ve not personally experienced his great mic skills or microphone timing.
Click to expand...
AEW can't even book Edge properly so I wouldn't rule out Okada surpassing Nakamura in popularity in NA. If Okada jumps ship to WWE in near future, that may happen. AEW is very much a career stagnating station for him.
Man Tozawa is a pretty good wrestler, and has nailed the comedy character in WWE. If given a chance to be a serious guy, he'd probably prove a lot of people wrong. He is a very sound wrestler too. And I think Tozawa's command of English is much better than both Nakamura and Okada and he could still cut good promos if given an opportunity.

I think Survivor Series for last two years has been branded as Survivor Series: Wargames already.
 
shaz619 said:
Also don’t think there’s a lot to differentiate between Gunther’s IC and WHC reigns, H has been utter tripe booking the champions, anyone who doesn’t prefer creative control is not really getting much help from him
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I can see Punk taking the belt off him at Rumble. I'm interested to see how Gunther would do as a babyface. Maybe they have reached the ceiling for him as a heel character for now. Which is why everything feels the same.
 
shaz619 said:
The socials for Punk & Reigns went crazy, biggest match in wrestling, should plan it sooner rather then later really
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I think they might have to do this one sooner rather than later. I can see it happening at WrestleMania 42. At this one, it can Rock v Roman, Punk v Rollins and Cody v Orton.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I can see Punk taking the belt off him at Rumble. I'm interested to see how Gunther would do as a babyface. Maybe they have reached the ceiling for him as a heel character for now. Which is why everything feels the same.
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Yes, that could be one path to Punk main eventing one of the nights. I think we’ve just scratched the surface with Gunther but the booking is letting him down, as an individual performer he is vastly improved though. In many ways, he needs this Punk match more than anyone else.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think they might have to do this one sooner rather than later. I can see it happening at WrestleMania 42. At this one, it can Rock v Roman, Punk v Rollins and Cody v Orton.
Click to expand...

They appear to be building towards The Rock vs Cody but at the same time, surely, can’t delay Rock vs Reigns for another year and I can’t see Rock working two nights. But the RR is a stadium show now and maybe Rock could work with Cody at one of the events before Mania. I would argue Punk/Reigns is at the bare minimum second the pecking order in terms of the match which needs to be made from a business POV, and arguably first, given the heat on it now and also the unpredictability of Punk’s body.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
AEW can't even book Edge properly so I wouldn't rule out Okada surpassing Nakamura in popularity in NA. If Okada jumps ship to WWE in near future, that may happen. AEW is very much a career stagnating station for him.
Man Tozawa is a pretty good wrestler, and has nailed the comedy character in WWE. If given a chance to be a serious guy, he'd probably prove a lot of people wrong. He is a very sound wrestler too. And I think Tozawa's command of English is much better than both Nakamura and Okada and he could still cut good promos if given an opportunity.

I think Survivor Series for last two years has been branded as Survivor Series: Wargames already.
Click to expand...

Yes, he’s a really nice guy as well and the happiest wrestler I’ve ever met, I have a picture with Tozawa doing the H finger point of doom at me. Also impressive he has remained with the company through all the turbulence and manages to find a way to get himself over. I do think Okada would be booked better in the WWE and reach some of his potential, but even then, I think Nakamura is in Muta territory now when I look at the lead he has over other Japanese workers, I actually prefer Okada’s work but Nakamura as an overall package is better and I feel his stint with the company deserves so much respect given his achievements relative to how other foreign stars have been positioned in the past.

Yeah I forgot that WarGames unfortunately already has its own PPV event and SS has lost its own importance now.
 
shaz619 said:
They appear to be building towards The Rock vs Cody but at the same time, surely, can’t delay Rock vs Reigns for another year and I can’t see Rock working two nights. But the RR is a stadium show now and maybe Rock could work with Cody at one of the events before Mania. I would argue Punk/Reigns is at the bare minimum second the pecking order in terms of the match which needs to be made from a business POV, and arguably first, given the heat on it now and also the unpredictability of Punk’s body.
Click to expand...
I think they have an easier road to Rock v Reigns right now than Rock v Cody. Rock being revealed as the puppet master behind the New Bloodline would make alot of sense and could lead straight to a Mania match with Roman. Because as much as Solo has improved in all aspects, you don't really buy him as the big bad to someone like Roman. This is the more impending match anyway that they have been trying to do for years. Similarly, Orton v Cody is a match that they can organically build to based on things that have already happened in storyline. And I really feel like that could tell an amazing story with that feud.

Punk v Rollins for the WHC main-events Night One and Rock v Roman for Rock's fake belt main-events Night Two.
 
shaz619 said:
Yes, he’s a really nice guy as well and the happiest wrestler I’ve ever met, I have a picture with Tozawa doing the H finger point of doom at me. Also impressive he has remained with the company through all the turbulence and manages to find a way to get himself over. I do think Okada would be booked better in the WWE and reach some of his potential, but even then, I think Nakamura is in Muta territory now when I look at the lead he has over other Japanese workers, I actually prefer Okada’s work but Nakamura as an overall package is better and I feel his stint with the company deserves so much respect given his achievements relative to how other foreign stars have been positioned in the past.

Yeah I forgot that WarGames unfortunately already has its own PPV event and SS has lost its own importance now.
Click to expand...
I am not much familiar with Nakamura's work in Japan apart from some of his most famous matches. But following it in real time is a different deal. Maybe that's why I don't appreciate Nakamura as much.
 
shaz619 said:
Yes, that could be one path to Punk main eventing one of the nights. I think we’ve just scratched the surface with Gunther but the booking is letting him down, as an individual performer he is vastly improved though. In many ways, he needs this Punk match more than anyone else.
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I think he has been booked fairly well for the past two years. He has only suffered two losses since coming on the main-roster. But ever since he became WHC I have felt that the booking has nosedived a bit. I don't think he needed two feuds against Damian Priest. And the match with Cody was absolutely needless. The Orton match/feud was a bright spot but other than that it feels like his title run has been going on auto-pilot. Have been hearing rumors of Cena v Gunther at Mania. I think that could be excellent. I would much rather have that than him carrying Oldberg to a 5 minute match.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I am not much familiar with Nakamura's work in Japan apart from some of his most famous matches. But following it in real time is a different deal. Maybe that's why I don't appreciate Nakamura as much.
Click to expand...
Check out Nakamura v Kota Ibushi from Wrestle Kingdom 9 and Nakamura v AJ Styles from Wrestle Kingdom 10. Those are the only two matches you need to watch to see how good he was in Japan and what a watered down version of him we have got in WWE. Although I will say that they presented him the right way in NXT.
 
shaz619 said:
I never enjoyed it as much as yourself but agree the story elements were executed well with their future plans in mind, I guess even if it wasn’t all that, it served its purpose to build to future events. But watching this I felt the classic 5v5 would have been much better and WarGames should be saved for maybe another event.
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I dunno, I actually felt like this match lent itself to the storytelling elements more. Like Punk saving Roman from the tsunami or Jimmy taking out Jacob Fatu. Roman's spear on Punk was a bad botch and lazily executed but that was also supposed to be a big spot too. Not to mention all the drama outside with Roman stopping Punk from going before Sami and Heyman coming out to rally the troops.

shaz619 said:
H fumbled LAK so badly. This new vicious Nakamura seems promising though, I think Nakamura has bulldozed the legacy of Okada
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I dunno I feel like it might be too late for Nakamura. I don't think alot of people are exactly clamoring for a Nakamura heel run. As for bulldozing Okada's legacy, I think he already did that in NXT. Really disappointing what they are doing with L.A. Knight though. Sometimes it almost feels like they don't want to believe that he is one of their top babyfaces. Probably because he got over on his own, despite being given a dead-end gimmick and being someone that Bray Wyatt was supposed to squash.
 
It was a fantastic Raw. New Day segment was brilliant and so was the opening one.
The only downvote for me would be randomly having Drew return to attack Sami. Could have been kept out till Rumble.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Check out Nakamura v Kota Ibushi from Wrestle Kingdom 9 and Nakamura v AJ Styles from Wrestle Kingdom 10. Those are the only two matches you need to watch to see how good he was in Japan and what a watered down version of him we have got in WWE. Although I will say that they presented him the right way in NXT.
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Those two and Nakamura vs Lesnar, and a handful of others I watched way back in 2016 when he was in NXT.
I still think Okada's in ring work is better.
Nakamura's best WWE match (main roster) was his singles match vs Randy Orton on a random SD episode in 2017.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
It was a fantastic Raw. New Day segment was brilliant and so was the opening one.
The only downvote for me would be randomly having Drew return to attack Sami. Could have been kept out till Rumble.
Click to expand...
That New Day segment went far differently than I expected it would. Overall, this was a very strong show because of that and the opening segment. Not to mention Gunther v Dom dream match lol.

Here's the Punk-Rollins part of that opening segment in case anybody wants to check out. Although for me it got even better when Sami and Rollins started talking:

 
BunnyRabbit said:
Those two and Nakamura vs Lesnar, and a handful of others I watched way back in 2016 when he was in NXT.
I still think Okada's in ring work is better.
Nakamura's best WWE match (main roster) was his singles match vs Randy Orton on a random SD episode in 2017.
Click to expand...
Okada is a much more text-book pro-wrestler, whereas in Nakamura's case the 'strong style' is kind of what makes him, him. When he came to WWE I feel like he had to tone down that aspect of his wrestling because of obvious reasons which meant a watered down version of Nakamura.

BTW in Japan, he is credited by many as the guy who revitalized strong-style wrestling after the destructive Inoki-ism period that nearly killed NJPW. And that Ibushi match from the Tokyo Dome show is probably the best example of that style with a modern flair. In WWE, it was never the same for me barring his short stint in NXT. I recall being put to sleep by that AJ v Nakamura WrestleMania match.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think they have an easier road to Rock v Reigns right now than Rock v Cody. Rock being revealed as the puppet master behind the New Bloodline would make alot of sense and could lead straight to a Mania match with Roman. Because as much as Solo has improved in all aspects, you don't really buy him as the big bad to someone like Roman. This is the more impending match anyway that they have been trying to do for years. Similarly, Orton v Cody is a match that they can organically build to based on things that have already happened in storyline. And I really feel like that could tell an amazing story with that feud.

Punk v Rollins for the WHC main-events Night One and Rock v Roman for Rock's fake belt main-events Night Two.
Click to expand...

Actually on Solo, I take issue with him not going over in that match, he wont be bought close to the level of some of the more dominant names without super strong booking and especially in high profile matches like this. So I agree he wont be taken as seriously. They spent so many months building him up that it seems illogical to me that he didn’t get the rub here, there are other ways to progress storylines opposed to using the WarGames match as a stepping stone to get there, fundamentally a match should be designed to make one or the other, I here they made the OG bloodline who didn’t really need the rub of the green.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I dunno, I actually felt like this match lent itself to the storytelling elements more. Like Punk saving Roman from the tsunami or Jimmy taking out Jacob Fatu. Roman's spear on Punk was a bad botch and lazily executed but that was also supposed to be a big spot too. Not to mention all the drama outside with Roman stopping Punk from going before Sami and Heyman coming out to rally the troops.


I dunno I feel like it might be too late for Nakamura. I don't think alot of people are exactly clamoring for a Nakamura heel run. As for bulldozing Okada's legacy, I think he already did that in NXT. Really disappointing what they are doing with L.A. Knight though. Sometimes it almost feels like they don't want to believe that he is one of their top babyfaces. Probably because he got over on his own, despite being given a dead-end gimmick and being someone that Bray Wyatt was supposed to squash.
Click to expand...

There are number of high profile independent & other talent who came into the WWE and had to adjust, it’s why WWE still thrive opposed to AEW who lack direction and often keep deviating from the NA style of working. You look at guys like Bryan, AJ, even Samoa Joe etc all these names had to adjust on the main roster and it’s usually an even bigger uphill battle for foreign stars but Nakamura adjusted seamlessly imo and has been highly successful on the main roster, but I do think that it’s fair to criticise his main event level opportunities and he deserved more exposure at the top of the card. They shafted LA Knight and unfortunately he is a victim of H’s booking, strike when the iron is cold; H maybe it’s not intentional because his ring work was like this to, can’t read the room and had a very low ring IQ.
 
shaz619 said:
Actually on Solo, I take issue with him not going over in that match, he wont be bought close to the level of some of the more dominant names without super strong booking and especially in high profile matches like this. So I agree he wont be taken as seriously. They spent so many months building him up that it seems illogical to me that he didn’t get the rub here, there are other ways to progress storylines opposed to using the WarGames match as a stepping stone to get there, fundamentally a match should be designed to make one or the other, I here they made the OG bloodline who didn’t really need the rub of the green.
Click to expand...
Solo's Bloodline won the match in Saudi. The WarGames match is supposed to be the blow-off match to a big feud between a bunch of heels and babyfaces. And it's kind of designed in a way that it makes more sense for the babyfaces to come out on top. So I think it needed to be this way. Especially keeping in mind future feuds going into WrestleMania. They have given us plenty of months of this New Bloodline running roughshod and being dominant. Solo has been great but you can't turn him into a top heel in 8 months. For me, he just isn't there yet.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Solo's Bloodline won the match in Saudi. The WarGames match is supposed to be the blow-off match to a big feud between a bunch of heels and babyfaces. And it's kind of designed in a way that it makes more sense for the babyfaces to come out on top. So I think it needed to be this way. Especially keeping in mind future feuds going into WrestleMania. They have given us plenty of months of this New Bloodline running roughshod and being dominant. Solo has been great but you can't turn him into a top heel in 8 months. For me, he just isn't there yet.
Click to expand...

I didn’t watch that lol This is what I mean, he went over during an event which didn’t matter. From my POV, traditionally the baby has to go over at WM, I would call that a rigid rule which applies to everyone except H, with the other events I think there’s plenty of flexibility and SS has been used in the past as well to make heels. Think Orton in 05 or 06, can you imagine a trad 5v5 where you could say Sikoa is the ‘Solo’ Survivor, makes for a great headline. Names have been made in a lot less time, and obviously those were exceptions, but I think if they want to make somebody and spend time investing in them, then they shouldn’t be overlooked for the big events. It reminds me of the PG era when x or y had a belt but were always overshadowed by the bigger names. Am not a huge fan of Solo myself but just don’t agree with the half measures.
 
shaz619 said:
There are number of high profile independent & other talent who came into the WWE and had to adjust, it’s why WWE still thrive opposed to AEW who lack direction and often keep deviating from the NA style of working. You look at guys like Bryan, AJ, even Samoa Joe etc all these names had to adjust on the main roster and it’s usually an even bigger uphill battle for foreign stars but Nakamura adjusted seamlessly imo and has been highly successful on the main roster, but I do think that it’s fair to criticise his main event level opportunities and he deserved more exposure at the top of the card. They shafted LA Knight and unfortunately he is a victim of H’s booking, strike when the iron is cold; H maybe it’s not intentional because his ring work was like this to, can’t read the room and had a very low ring IQ.
Click to expand...
Nakamura has done well for himself considering the history of Japanese wrestlers in NA. But he hasn't really delivered for me on the main-roster and I have failed to ever see him as anything more than a midcarder. They had a chance to do something with him in 2018 but seems like Vince didn't have enough belief. From an in-ring stand-point I never thought he gave anything close to the output he was giving in Japan. Maybe he was forced to tone down the strong style but nonetheless it was disappointing to see a watered down version Nakamura for years and years. So for me, its simply too late to start caring about him now considering the way he has been presented up until now.

I doubt its intentional because it very much fits in with his booking philosophy which is essentially that if you got over today, you will be pushed one year from now. And even that 'push' will be either winning the US/IC Championship or losing a World title match.
 
Rock vs Reigns ship might have sailed. It only made sense to me when Reigns was on an historic unbeaten run as a heel.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Nakamura has done well for himself considering the history of Japanese wrestlers in NA. But he hasn't really delivered for me on the main-roster and I have failed to ever see him as anything more than a midcarder. They had a chance to do something with him in 2018 but seems like Vince didn't have enough belief. From an in-ring stand-point I never thought he gave anything close to the output he was giving in Japan. Maybe he was forced to tone down the strong style but nonetheless it was disappointing to see a watered down version Nakamura for years and years. So for me, its simply too late to start caring about him now considering the way he has been presented up until now.

I doubt its intentional because it very much fits in with his booking philosophy which is essentially that if you got over today, you will be pushed one year from now. And even that 'push' will be either winning the US/IC Championship or losing a World title match.
Click to expand...

I don’t judge him based on what he did in the past for the NA market because a lot of wrestlers who join WWE have to water their style down and focus more on story elements. Yeah he should have perhaps gone over AJ for the title, but AJ was the better draw so made sense to be persisted with, but beyond that I can’t recall any other Jap wrestler to have as much success in NA as Nak and I personally feel he’s overlooked, I still enjoy his work, it’s fresh compared to others which keeps him interesting, he did some matches in Japan not long ago don’t know how you found them. I still take him pretty seriously and being in the upper mid card not a bad spot, plus the prestige of the IC scene has been restored, in NJPW he worked a similar spot tbh it’s just the stylistic matches are different.

Yeah probably given how consistently he has booked like that, which is a shame for a number of guys including Sami Zayn who should have been in the WHC picture as well.
 
Bhaijaan said:
Rock vs Reigns ship might have sailed. It only made sense to me when Reigns was on an historic unbeaten run as a heel.
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Yeah it’s not as exciting now, but maybe the road to WM will change that 🤔 I think Cody v Rock got a bit more heat and Reigns v Punk got more heat right now then both those matches
 
shaz619 said:
Yeah it’s not as exciting now, but maybe the road to WM will change that 🤔 I think Cody v Rock got a bit more heat and Reigns v Punk got more heat right now then both those matches
Click to expand...

Agreed, these alternative rivalries sound more believable at the moment.
 
Bhaijaan said:
Agreed, these alternative rivalries sound more believable at the moment.
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Rock vs Roman will still be a massive massive draw regardless of when it happens. It will be in similar vain to Rock vs Cena or perhaps even bigger.
 
I hope Dwayne gets himself cardio ready whenever he wrestles his next match. He isn't as quick in the ring as he used to be back in the day. I know he's 51 but he's grown massively since 2013 and he's seems like a giant dude now. Hopefully he gets a bit leaner to get that extra speed that he sorta lacked in the Mania match this year. Otherwise his selling is still as good as it used to be. His promo skills are still there. Rey Mysterio still barely breaks a sweat wrestling at that rapid pace doing lucha libre style at 50 years of age.
 
shaz619 said:
Yeah it’s not as exciting now, but maybe the road to WM will change that 🤔 I think Cody v Rock got a bit more heat and Reigns v Punk got more heat right now then both those matches
Click to expand...
Bron Breakker vs Jacob Fatu could be great feud if they decide to go in that direction.
 
A heel New Day vs Usos/Street Profits feud could still be a banger considering how awesome it was back in 2017-18.
I actually like that they are turning Ciampa heel and this time they'll probably lean in with his NXT psychopath character rather than being Miz' lackey. And that Ciampa was one of the best characters in WWE during that time.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Bron Breakker vs Jacob Fatu could be great feud if they decide to go in that direction.
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Definitely though I think Jacob is going to be very busy with the bloodline story for some time. Where’s Austin Theory these days 🤔
 
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