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The Wrestling Discussion Thread

shaz619 said:
I am less critical of him because he’s a foreigner and I would never see him in that Punk type role, but as a booker I’d have him in my main event scene consistently and present him like the star he deserves to be. Like remember, Gado has done shows with Okada at MSG which were hugely successful and I think even TNA booked him a bit better, I think foreign talent need some more attention in a new market, especially if you want them on TV every week, though I get what you’re saying with his attitude but others have got more out of it and that laid back mindset has worked really well for him in the ring because he makes everything look so effortless.

Yes am surprised by how well they’ve set the reunion up really and I’ve seen clips of the Shelton Benjamin matches (weirdly am involved in a storyline with him in SvR I was just playing yesterday 20 years later its nuts), Benjamin is like the most under utilised modern wrestler ever. Anyway the set up was so good you could be fooled for thinking it was a WWE show, they had a few more people in as well, what happened there? lol

Yes the guy has a huge ego and is a closet racist, have you read about him getting all butt hurt about Samantha Irvin’s comments, they were nothing bad but he got upset. He had every chance to get the most of them and they obviously were a draw and the fans wanted them back but he refused, I don’t really see him doing anything special with WWE, the company is set up so strong now with a robust structure that it runs itself bro, Trips is just cosplaying Vince…
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Fair enough but it's still disappointing to see that no attempt has been made by him to adapt his style to North American television. He is essentially having the same matches he had in New Japan but with the last 20 minutes cut out. Whereas there had the time to go 35-40 minutes in the ring, here he has 15 minutes. So it's like those matches with the last 20 minutes cut out which means all you get are boring, plodding snooze fests that all largely feel the same. I think those cases are a little different because they didn't involve week-to-week booking for TV. Problem is, the character aspect has not been developed at all in his case so Tony has to rely on these boring 15 minute matches to justify his investment.

Well for once they actually built a show up weeks in advance, so maybe that's why they actually had some people in the building on this one. As for Shelton, I agree. People love to talk about Brock as the freak athlete, but Shelton is no less a freak athlete. Some of the things he was able to do in the ring were revolutionary and groundbreaking for the 2000s. Watching him do some character work on AEW, you see how wrong certain people were when they said he lacked promo skills. They just weren't willing to make an effort with him. And at 49, he somehow looks more jacked than he ever has. Can you believe that Dirt Sheet Dave has an issue with Shelton being booked strong and squashing guys like Sammy because he was booked like a jobber in WWE? Dave has gone past the point of even being senile at this point.

The obsessing/caring about social media is so lame to me. I expect that from Tony because he has the intellect of a 15 year old. But this guy is the booker of the biggest wrestling company in the world, and he apparently still cares what a bunch of randos on Twitter think about the product? I think the booking now is largely logical and makes sense most of the time. But as we have said in the past, it lacks that spark and is predictable which is both a good and a bad thing. And I agree, there are alot of people that are writing the show, its not just him. Though credit where credit is due, this Kevin Owens storyline has been really well and cleverly executed.
 
@shaz619 I think alot of your fears about Cody have come true. Call me fickle, but I feel like his run as champion is starting to get a bit stale. The Kevin Owens storyline is interesting to me, but Cody himself is starting to go into that John Cena territory. In his case, its the overtly wordy promos that don't really go anywhere. The bloom is starting to wear off the rose for me. The only thing that can save his run right now is this feud with Owens and perhaps a deeply personal feud with Orton. I think the biggest problem for me with his run so far has been the fact that his feuds have zero heat.

Gunther's run as champ has been on less predictable. But I actually feel like he has improved considerably on promos. And generally evolved as a complete package. If there is anyone I trust to get a coherent match out of Goldberg, it's him. Cody feels like he is doing the same stuff he was doing months ago.
 
This was freaking brilliant. Finally the piledriver means something after being *******ized in AEW and other promotions and being used as a break-spot. Randy's selling here was outstanding. They have done an absolutely amazing job with this storyline.

 
RedwoodOriginal said:
This was freaking brilliant. Finally the piledriver means something after being *******ized in AEW and other promotions and being used as a break-spot. Randy's selling here was outstanding. They have done an absolutely amazing job with this storyline.

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I just saw this on social media, man, it just shows kayfabe is not completely dead when you get it right like this, just listen to the reaction, that was sick and this is the KO we want to see, great sell by Randy, I don’t know what has transpired this but want to see more
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
@shaz619 I think alot of your fears about Cody have come true. Call me fickle, but I feel like his run as champion is starting to get a bit stale. The Kevin Owens storyline is interesting to me, but Cody himself is starting to go into that John Cena territory. In his case, its the overtly wordy promos that don't really go anywhere. The bloom is starting to wear off the rose for me. The only thing that can save his run right now is this feud with Owens and perhaps a deeply personal feud with Orton. I think the biggest problem for me with his run so far has been the fact that his feuds have zero heat.

Gunther's run as champ has been on less predictable. But I actually feel like he has improved considerably on promos. And generally evolved as a complete package. If there is anyone I trust to get a coherent match out of Goldberg, it's him. Cody feels like he is doing the same stuff he was doing months ago.
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With Cody’s reign it is almost like they have deliberately remained in 2nd gear? I will put it down to the booking as well, I don’t know what the exec decision was on this at the top or if they’ve wanted to book him this way to get heat am not sure, but outside the AJ Styles feud has anything been interesting?

Gunther has continued to grow though and has really come into his own as a character, best model of how to book a foreign talent like a major star, though I wouldn’t have booked him to do the job for Cody.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think this is from a couple of years ago before Ric's last match, where he nearly died in the ring. I recall he was training with Jay Lethal before the match. Hopefully he will stay as far away from the ring as humanly possible.
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I have never watched anything involving Ric since the retirement match in 2008 with Shawn, that was beautiful, it got voted as match of the century by the PWI as well. The emotional side of me has wanted to see him in that ring and I’ve been very close with the angle with Lethal and match which involved Andrade but still couldn’t do it
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Couldn't have said it better myself. I think she is the greatest female wrestler to come out of North America by a country mile. She is completely in a league of her own.

It's funny to me now that people used to compare Mercedes to her once. Her AEW run has completely exposed her on the mic. and in the ring.
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Charlotte I appreciate is in a world of her own and for me the best ever to do it, could keep up with prime Asuka as well who I feel is the best ever outside NA and people don’t realise how special that dream match truly was and they both tore the house down at Mania.

Mone I get people have issues with her attitude and personality completely, but she helped put the women’s division on the map on the main roster, and from NXT through to her stints on SD/RAW she was one of the most technically sound women wrestlers I’ve ever seen and was consistently involved in some of the best women's matches ever, she worked an extremely physical style and unfortunately that took years of her career but I can’t say I didn’t enjoy her work. But I’ve read the run in AEW hasn’t been the best, this seems to be a trend with high profile names coming into the promotion, heck I’d even put Mox in that list to some degree, I only feel like Bryan has been a professional, but I find it hard to criticise the wrestlers not taking advantage of the disney land environment when 90% of wrestlers would.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
@shaz619 I think alot of your fears about Cody have come true. Call me fickle, but I feel like his run as champion is starting to get a bit stale. The Kevin Owens storyline is interesting to me, but Cody himself is starting to go into that John Cena territory. In his case, its the overtly wordy promos that don't really go anywhere. The bloom is starting to wear off the rose for me. The only thing that can save his run right now is this feud with Owens and perhaps a deeply personal feud with Orton. I think the biggest problem for me with his run so far has been the fact that his feuds have zero heat.

Gunther's run as champ has been on less predictable. But I actually feel like he has improved considerably on promos. And generally evolved as a complete package. If there is anyone I trust to get a coherent match out of Goldberg, it's him. Cody feels like he is doing the same stuff he was doing months ago.
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It seemed like Gunther was showing signs of face turn or tweener role on Raw last week.
What was the point of Dwayne returning at Bad Blood if he wasn't going to show up again for months.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
It seemed like Gunther was showing signs of face turn or tweener role on Raw last week.
What was the point of Dwayne returning at Bad Blood if he wasn't going to show up again for months.
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Indirectly promote his new movie with A24 which might actually be decent for once
 
shaz619 said:
I just saw this on social media, man, it just shows kayfabe is not completely dead when you get it right like this, just listen to the reaction, that was sick and this is the KO we want to see, great sell by Randy, I don’t know what has transpired this but want to see more
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Wrestling is 100x more interesting when things feel real or are presented as real. Because everything has been so devalued and made to look like a joke, when you see something like this it actually stands out.

Personally I thought KO was on his way to AEW. But seems like he is staying. I love the slow-burn way in which they have built this entire thing around him, Cody and Randy. In a way, you see his side and understand why he turned on both Cody and Orton, even if you don't agree with it. Also, lays the seeds for Orton eventually putting the dagger in Cody's back down the line.

Real issues draw money. It isn't as hard as it is made out to be by some.
 
shaz619 said:
With Cody’s reign it is almost like they have deliberately remained in 2nd gear? I will put it down to the booking as well, I don’t know what the exec decision was on this at the top or if they’ve wanted to book him this way to get heat am not sure, but outside the AJ Styles feud has anything been interesting?

Gunther has continued to grow though and has really come into his own as a character, best model of how to book a foreign talent like a major star, though I wouldn’t have booked him to do the job for Cody.
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Not really. I guess you could include this current Owens storyline. But other than that's is been pretty meh.

Yeah I didn't understand the point of that match at all. It didn't do much for Cody and did absolutely nothing for Gunther. They used to do this Champion vs. Champion match every year at Survivor Series and I always thought it was highly counter-productive match because it always made one of your champions look weak with basically nothing on the line. There was no need for Gunther to eat that loss, especially considering how strong he has been booked since coming to the main-roster, having only lost once to Sami Zayn.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
It seemed like Gunther was showing signs of face turn or tweener role on Raw last week.
What was the point of Dwayne returning at Bad Blood if he wasn't going to show up again for months.
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Really? I didn't get that feeling. Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

They did that with Bron too a few weeks back though. Then he laid out Jey Uso the next week.

Personally, I think Gunther needs to stay a heel until he establishes himself as one of absolute top guys in the company. I don't think he is there yet.

Who knows with The Rock anymore.
 
shaz619 said:
Charlotte I appreciate is in a world of her own and for me the best ever to do it, could keep up with prime Asuka as well who I feel is the best ever outside NA and people don’t realise how special that dream match truly was and they both tore the house down at Mania.

Mone I get people have issues with her attitude and personality completely, but she helped put the women’s division on the map on the main roster, and from NXT through to her stints on SD/RAW she was one of the most technically sound women wrestlers I’ve ever seen and was consistently involved in some of the best women's matches ever, she worked an extremely physical style and unfortunately that took years of her career but I can’t say I didn’t enjoy her work.
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Haven't seen much of her in work in NXT but I'm not going to deny that she is a very good wrestler still. But her personality and presentation is so cringe. In the WWE, they were able to insulate it somehow. But like every other big star she has given in to her worst instincts here in AEW. They even hired a soap opera writer who used to write material for her in WWE.

shaz619 said:
But I’ve read the run in AEW hasn’t been the best, this seems to be a trend with high profile names coming into the promotion, heck I’d even put Mox in that list to some degree, I only feel like Bryan has been a professional but I find it hard to criticise the wrestlers not taking advantage of the disney land environment when 90% of wrestlers would.
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Yeah this is true. When the booker is more interested in being your friend, than your boss , you're bound to take advantage of that. I just wish some of these people actually had good ideas.

Lol Mox is trying to be AEW's Roman Reigns these days with this low-rent nWo knock-off storyline. Atleast they are trying to do some long-term booking/storyline for once. So I can't blame them for that.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Haven't seen much of her in work in NXT but I'm not going to deny that she is a very good wrestler still. But her personality and presentation is so cringe. In the WWE, they were able to insulate it somehow. But like every other big star she has given in to her worst instincts here in AEW. They even hired a soap opera writer who used to write material for her in WWE.



Yeah this is true. When the booker is more interested in being your friend, than your boss , you're bound to take advantage of that. I just wish some of these people actually had good ideas.

Lol Mox is trying to be AEW's Roman Reigns these days with this low-rent nWo knock-off storyline. Atleast they are trying to do some long-term booking/storyline for once. So I can't blame them for that.
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That match with Bayley at NXT Takeover Brooklyn New York was like a big turning point for how I viewed their perception of women’s workers, first high profile women’s match in a packed arena for years and was one of the best I’ve seen, that rivalry with Flair was epic, that triple threat at Mania was something and she helped make a number of women unselfishly including Bianca. It is disappointing they’ve not bought out her best qualities in AEW, a place where ‘the best wrestle’ and have their worst performances. Coming back to Tony, didn’t he go all Cuck on Mone and publically saying things like paying her £££ to be able to stand next to her or something, I just remembered lol do you blame her when he comes out with statements like that and emptied his account to sign her. But I’ve not followed what’s the latest in AEW, I am just waiting for Starks to be released before his career is completely wasted
 
shaz619 said:
That match with Bayley at NXT Takeover Brooklyn New York was like a big turning point for how I viewed their perception of women’s workers, first high profile women’s match in a packed arena for years and was one of the best I’ve seen, that rivalry with Flair was epic, that triple threat at Mania was something and she helped make a number of women unselfishly including Bianca. It is disappointing they’ve not bought out her best qualities in AEW, a place where ‘the best wrestle’ and have their worst performances. Coming back to Tony, didn’t he go all Cuck on Mone and publically saying things like paying her £££ to be able to stand next to her or something, I just remembered lol do you blame her when he comes out with statements like that and emptied his account to sign her. But I’ve not followed what’s the latest in AEW, I am just waiting for Starks to be released before his career is completely wasted
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I think she's a perfect example of someone who needs to be reigned in and told what to do, rather than be allowed to follow her worst instincts. I think that's probably what made it work with her as a character in WWE too. The writers were working under a clear direction and the booking complimented that. I have heard alot of raves about that TakeOver match. I think I've seen some of it in passing, will definitely try to seek it out in full.

Well that's Tony for you. It's hardly surprising that every top guy/girl on that roster takes him for a ride.

Yeah really hope he goes to WWE soon. Wardlow too.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think she's a perfect example of someone who needs to be reigned in and told what to do, rather than be allowed to follow her worst instincts. I think that's probably what made it work with her as a character in WWE too. The writers were working under a clear direction and the booking complimented that. I have heard alot of raves about that TakeOver match. I think I've seen some of it in passing, will definitely try to seek it out in full.

Well that's Tony for you. It's hardly surprising that every top guy/girl on that roster takes him for a ride.

Yeah really hope he goes to WWE soon. Wardlow too.
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It’s on YT, not sure if that works in Pakistan but here’s a link:


Besides this they had an Iron-Woman’s match as well which was excellent
 
shaz619 said:
It’s on YT, not sure if that works in Pakistan but here’s a link:


Besides this they had an Iron-Woman’s match as well which was excellent
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Geo-blocked but it's fine. I'll find it on Dailymotion or just pirate it.

I'd fire up my VPN but even that has been slowed down by the state authorities lol.
 
Sasha is a great in ring worker. But I really can't get into her promos especially with the do your own thing in AEW.
She was great in WWE but seems like another talented wrestler without having the most sane head on their shoulders.
Charlotte vs Sasha match series in 2017 was extremely good.
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think she's a perfect example of someone who needs to be reigned in and told what to do, rather than be allowed to follow her worst instincts. I think that's probably what made it work with her as a character in WWE too. The writers were working under a clear direction and the booking complimented that. I have heard alot of raves about that TakeOver match. I think I've seen some of it in passing, will definitely try to seek it out in full.

Well that's Tony for you. It's hardly surprising that every top guy/girl on that roster takes him for a ride.

Yeah really hope he goes to WWE soon. Wardlow too.
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Yes but they sort of explained it on tonights Raw that Gunther has self doubt since losing to Cody. Even today he didn't say anything mean to Priest and even stopped Ludwig from going on at Priest.
RedwoodOriginal said:
Really? I didn't get that feeling. Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

They did that with Bron too a few weeks back though. Then he laid out Jey Uso the next week.

Personally, I think Gunther needs to stay a heel until he establishes himself as one of absolute top guys in the company. I don't think he is there yet.

Who knows with The Rock anymore.
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It's such a great storyline with Randy being the target of all people who till back in 2020 was punting people and putting them on shelves. Randy has to be the most natural wrestler of all time. He doesn't even seem to be breaking a sweat whilst doing what he does. His selling is perfect.
RedwoodOriginal said:
Wrestling is 100x more interesting when things feel real or are presented as real. Because everything has been so devalued and made to look like a joke, when you see something like this it actually stands out.

Personally I thought KO was on his way to AEW. But seems like he is staying. I love the slow-burn way in which they have built this entire thing around him, Cody and Randy. In a way, you see his side and understand why he turned on both Cody and Orton, even if you don't agree with it. Also, lays the seeds for Orton eventually putting the dagger in Cody's back down the line.

Real issues draw money. It isn't as hard as it is made out to be by some.
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BunnyRabbit said:
Yes but they sort of explained it on tonights Raw that Gunther has self doubt since losing to Cody. Even today he didn't say anything mean to Priest and even stopped Ludwig from going on at Priest.
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I think they are trying to give people a reason to think that Priest might win. Because I don't think anyone realistically buys the idea that Gunther is losing this match. Personally, I thought they were going to do Punk v Gunther at Survivor Series but seems they are going back to this.

As for the babyface tease, I think that's just that: a tease. They may turn him down the road but for now I think he's going to be a heel for the foreseeable future.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
it's getting released November 15 as per imdb.
i doubt an action comedy will get any oscar nods.
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This is not an action comedy. It's more of a biopic/prestige picture that will likely more interesting than your garden variety Oscar bait biopic because of the subject-matter. In general I like sports films so looking forward to this.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
New Day storyline is such a great slow burner. Simple but effective.
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I have enjoyed their booking of the midcard feuds recently. They've kept these feuds on RAW or SmackDown, rather than the PPVs and have utilized midcard level guys far better than the past by putting them in somewhat interesting storylines. There's this New Day thing, there was the Bronson Reed-Braun Strowman feud. We had American Made v The Wyatts.

I actually think this is the best way to use The Wyatts. Because the spooky stuff that they are doing doesn't really fit in with the main-event angles. But with factions like American Made, The Karrion Kross group, it does work. And elevates those guys too because The Wyatts are still hot and still get big reactions whenever they come out
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
This is not an action comedy. It's more of a biopic/prestige picture that will likely more interesting than your garden variety Oscar bait biopic because of the subject-matter. In general I like sports films so looking forward to this.
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I thought you were talking about Red One. Rock and Chris Evans action comedy.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I have enjoyed their booking of the midcard feuds recently. They've kept these feuds on RAW or SmackDown, rather than the PPVs and have utilized midcard level guys far better than the past by putting them in somewhat interesting storylines. There's this New Day thing, there was the Bronson Reed-Braun Strowman feud. We had American Made v The Wyatts.

I actually think this is the best way to use The Wyatts. Because the spooky stuff that they are doing doesn't really fit in with the main-event angles. But with factions like American Made, The Karrion Kross group, it does work. And elevates those guys too because The Wyatts are still hot and still get big reactions whenever they come out
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Yes Dexter Lumis' work has been the best in Wyat Sicks IMO. Even though he's doing another gothic character, he looks unrecognizable now.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think they are trying to give people a reason to think that Priest might win. Because I don't think anyone realistically buys the idea that Gunther is losing this match. Personally, I thought they were going to do Punk v Gunther at Survivor Series but seems they are going back to this.

As for the babyface tease, I think that's just that: a tease. They may turn him down the road but for now I think he's going to be a heel for the foreseeable future.
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yes i agree. They may hold on to Punk vs Gunther till RR I guess.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Yes Dexter Lumis' work has been the best in Wyat Sicks IMO. Even though he's doing another gothic character, he looks unrecognizable now.
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For me, Bo Dallas has been the stand-out. Especially with his character work in those vignettes. I think they had some interesting plans in-place for him and these guys before Bray's unfortunate passing.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
yes i agree. They may hold on to Punk vs Gunther till RR I guess.
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Could be. Though I would much rather see that match earlier. At Saturday Night's Main Event or some other big show. I want Punk to win the Rumble and challenge for the World title at WrestleMania. At Rumble they could do Gunther v Rollins with Goldberg potentially costing Gunther the title, which could set up Goldberg v Gunther at Mania too.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Could be. Though I would much rather see that match earlier. At Saturday Night's Main Event or some other big show. I want Punk to win the Rumble and challenge for the World title at WrestleMania. At Rumble they could do Gunther v Rollins with Goldberg potentially costing Gunther the title, which could set up Goldberg v Gunther at Mania too.
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I wouldn't want another Rollins title run despite it being 2-3 month long.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I wouldn't want another Rollins title run despite it being 2-3 month long.
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Me neither but he is definitely working a program with Punk at Wrestle Mania so it might as well be for the belt. And this belt also badly needs a big name associated with it.
 
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Rolins and reed is going to be added in the bloodline war games match as the fifth member

This is Vince level booking from hhh. Bonkers
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Makes absolutely zero sense. It's much better to have it 4 on 4.
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Exactly. I was screaming my lungs out no no when sami was talking to Seth. If you have to make it 5v5 debut another bloodline member. I hear lance anioi is signed though injured is signed to WWE, you could have add the rock who could just come at the last moment to betray Roman and reveal he is the true kingpin behind solo..it's a multi man match, they could easily hide Lance's injury and rock not being in full match
 
Dhakar Pola said:
Exactly. I was screaming my lungs out no no when sami was talking to Seth. If you have to make it 5v5 debut another bloodline member. I hear lance anioi is signed though injured is signed to WWE, you could have add the rock who could just come at the last moment to betray Roman and reveal he is the true kingpin behind solo..it's a multi man match, they could easily hide Lance's injury and rock not being in full match
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The Rock has too many excuses. And likely has a busy schedule because of his movie. At his age, a roided up guy like him can't just get into the ring and a wrestle a match either. He has to train for a few weeks at the very least, just to get ring-ready. But Seth coming in would be really dumb considering his history with Roman and the way this entire storyline has played out. Bronson is another random pick. Just because he is feuding with Seth and happens to be a heel, let's get him in too.

I know Triple H is a big fan of old WCW and Dusty, but some of these WarGames matches he has done have been poorly booked. And it's disappointing to see that they have completely done away with the traditional Survivor Series 5-on-5 elimination match.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
The Rock has too many excuses. And likely has a busy schedule because of his movie. At his age, a roided up guy like him can't just get into the ring and a wrestle a match either. He has to train for a few weeks at the very least, just to get ring-ready. But Seth coming in would be really dumb considering his history with Roman and the way this entire storyline has played out. Bronson is another random pick. Just because he is feuding with Seth and happens to be a heel, let's get him in too.

I know Triple H is a big fan of old WCW and Dusty, but some of these WarGames matches he has done have been poorly booked. And it's disappointing to see that they have completely done away with the traditional Survivor Series 5-on-5 elimination match.
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Since it's a wargame match rock won't need to wrestle..he can sit back come out at the end like randy did last year and let the new bloodline do his handywork. Dude just needed to be there, he'll there was no reason for him to come out at bad blood. He could have done the same in survivor series
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
The Rock has too many excuses. And likely has a busy schedule because of his movie. At his age, a roided up guy like him can't just get into the ring and a wrestle a match either. He has to train for a few weeks at the very least, just to get ring-ready. But Seth coming in would be really dumb considering his history with Roman and the way this entire storyline has played out. Bronson is another random pick. Just because he is feuding with Seth and happens to be a heel, let's get him in too.

I know Triple H is a big fan of old WCW and Dusty, but some of these WarGames matches he has done have been poorly booked. And it's disappointing to see that they have completely done away with the traditional Survivor Series 5-on-5 elimination match.
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On annual basis the trad 5v5 match has always worked best and allowed for the best drama & emotion when done right, and you can really make a talent as the soul survivor as well.

H don’t know how to book War Games, and they are just big spotfests, it feels premeditated as well, trying to build a faction to face one another just for the match, maybe it’s me but it didn’t feel like this when the trad 5v5 matches were made.
 
shaz619 said:
On annual basis the trad 5v5 match has always worked best and allowed for the best drama & emotion when done right, and you can really make a talent as the soul survivor as well.

H don’t know how to book War Games, and they are just big spotfests, it feels premeditated as well, trying to build a faction to face one another just for the match, maybe it’s me but it didn’t feel like this when the trad 5v5 matches were made.
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Yeah, I don't remember any of the old matches having this much furniture and weapons. I mean you could open an IKEA store in the ring after one of these. H just seems to be shilling for the sensibilities of the modern fans, rather than preserving the uniqueness of this match and giving us something different. As a result, he has completely devalued it.

5v5 matches were great. Even some awful to mediocre feuds were saved by this match. You genuinely felt like the stakes heightened with each elimination. And as you say, booking someone to be a sole survivor was a great way to elevate them. I still remember when guys like Orton and Ziggler were the sole survivors.
 
You know I was thinking. They could have added Punk to this WarGames match. Heyman could have brought him in as the fifth man. Obviously first Heyman would have to return. But it would have atleast made more sense than Rollins being in this match.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You know I was thinking. They could have added Punk to this WarGames match. Heyman could have brought him in as the fifth man. Obviously first Heyman would have to return. But it would have atleast made more sense than Rollins being in this match.
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He is too above the way they book this match now imo but it would be the only thing which I’d tune in for though.

Punk & Heyman back together would be a twist that no one would see coming and I think that could set up a match with Reigns.

The biggest money match in wrestling after Rock v Reigns is Reigns vs Punk imo
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
The feeling is mutual bro. Wrestling is just not the same without CM Punk. Would be a shame if he isn't on the Survivor Series card.
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There’s never been another wrestler you want to see more off then Punk this era, maybe it’s the PTSD from when he was away, wherever he has worked the guy is just star
 
shaz619 said:
He is too above the way they book this match now imo but it would be the only thing which I’d tune in for though.

Punk & Heyman back together would be a twist that no one would see coming and I think that could set up a match with Reigns.

The biggest money match in wrestling after Rock v Reigns is Reigns vs Punk imo
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Punk v Reigns would be massive. Especially with Heyman involved. It would turn Reigns into a mega babyface if Punk decides to be a heel. As much as I have loved Punk's babyface runs in AEW and WWE, we all know that when Punk goes heel, that's where he operates at his best. He's just a natural heel. Punk v Cody could be great too. Though I think the crowd would turn on Cody as a babyface if that feud were to happen.

Btw I heard that they might do a feud between Wade Barrett and Drew. That could be really good. Its a great potential follow-up feud for Drew which like his previous feud could take real life stuff between these two to make some great TV. Always thought Barrett was a really underrated wrestler who was buried by bad booking. Would be nice to see him do one more comeback match.
 
shaz619 said:
There’s never been another wrestler you want to see more off then Punk this era, maybe it’s the PTSD from when he was away, wherever he has worked the guy is just star
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It's a couple of things, one the quality of wrestling has nosedived so much in recent times that what he does standout even more, and two, he is a much bigger star now than he was during his first run, and also has more creative freedom to do his stuff than he ever did before.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Punk v Reigns would be massive. Especially with Heyman involved. It would turn Reigns into a mega babyface if Punk decides to be a heel. As much as I have loved Punk's babyface runs in AEW and WWE, we all know that when Punk goes heel, that's where he operates at his best. He's just a natural heel. Punk v Cody could be great too. Though I think the crowd would turn on Cody as a babyface if that feud were to happen.

Btw I heard that they might do a feud between Wade Barrett and Drew. That could be really good. Its a great potential follow-up feud for Drew which like his previous feud could take real life stuff between these two to make some great TV. Always thought Barrett was a really underrated wrestler who was buried by bad booking. Would be nice to see him do one more comeback match.
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Roman vs Punk and Roman vs Rock are the 2 dream matches right now.
Cody vs Punk, Randy vs Roman, Randy vs Rock, Drew vs Cody are in tier 2. I'd be curious to see Punk vs AJ and Rock vs AJ too. Seth for all his athletic nature, just isn't a top worker anymore and hasn't been one for a lot of years.
 
shaz619 said:
On annual basis the trad 5v5 match has always worked best and allowed for the best drama & emotion when done right, and you can really make a talent as the soul survivor as well.

H don’t know how to book War Games, and they are just big spotfests, it feels premeditated as well, trying to build a faction to face one another just for the match, maybe it’s me but it didn’t feel like this when the trad 5v5 matches were made.
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Wargames matches in NXT were good. But they didn't have to replace the traditional 5v5 with Wargames.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Punk v Reigns would be massive. Especially with Heyman involved. It would turn Reigns into a mega babyface if Punk decides to be a heel. As much as I have loved Punk's babyface runs in AEW and WWE, we all know that when Punk goes heel, that's where he operates at his best. He's just a natural heel. Punk v Cody could be great too. Though I think the crowd would turn on Cody as a babyface if that feud were to happen.

Btw I heard that they might do a feud between Wade Barrett and Drew. That could be really good. Its a great potential follow-up feud for Drew which like his previous feud could take real life stuff between these two to make some great TV. Always thought Barrett was a really underrated wrestler who was buried by bad booking. Would be nice to see him do one more comeback match.
Click to expand...

Without a doubt he’s a natural heel, but his face run has surprised me by how great it has been, I use to say this to you during his AEW run, and I will say it again those baby face promo’s are some of the best from this century and his run overall their was special despite what happened backstage. And now he has bought that over to the WWE and it’s a slightly tweaked character because it reflects a man who’s in a very happy place as well but this feud with Drew has been the most enjoyable of the year. And when you look how over he is in terms of quantifiable measurement, I didn’t think I would say it but Punk is as natural a baby face as he is a heel and as an all round performer more polished then he ever was and I say that despite everything all around him being inferior, the fact that he elevates those in this time, is another vindication possibly of that opinion I hold. The man’s well read, genuine student of the game, absorbs so much wrestling information, he’s a natural but works very very hard behind the scenes and there are little touches in his work or mannerisms or promos which make the world of difference. The last of a dying breed.

Oh that would be amazing if it happens, I thought Barett should have gone over for the world title at one point. Phenomenal in the ring and sound on the mic, good feud for Drew, I think this is great for his career, working within emotionally charged stories; this is the type of stuff which gets my attention otherwise I wont bother tbh.
 
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BunnyRabbit said:
Wargames matches in NXT were good. But they didn't have to replace the traditional 5v5 with Wargames.
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In NXT they were but I will still say they were spotfests as well, but generally executed really well and a more organic build, Regal, Ryan Ward & the guys would have done a lot of good work behind the scenes as well. A lot of the stuff in WWE just seems to be running on auto-pilot, maybe things will get better during WM season, but I don’t sense the leadership regardless off whether the output is good or bad.
 
Cody Rhodes isn’t very sellable. People had a lot of sympathy for him as the underdog babyface, and that ended with him becoming champion. It’s just tough for babyfaces, they have to be genuinely interesting or funny people to sell long term.
 
shaz619 said:
In NXT they were but I will still say they were spotfests as well, but generally executed really well and a more organic build, Regal, Ryan Ward & the guys would have done a lot of good work behind the scenes as well. A lot of the stuff in WWE just seems to be running on auto-pilot, maybe things will get better during WM season, but I don’t sense the leadership regardless off whether the output is good or bad.
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They 100% were.
But the second Wargames match Undisputed Era vs Ricochet, Dunne and War Raiders was one of the best spotfests I have seen. Even with all the spots, there was this story being told about Pete Dunne and Ricochet earning each other's respect to deal with Adam Cole.
Or the 4th one where Undisputed Era were the faces for the first time. They were good.
The first Wargames match at SS with Bloodline vs KO, Drew, etc was good due to the undertold story of Sami gaining Roman's trust. Last year it felt like a rehash and only Randy's return made it exciting. This year it feels more manufactured than ever.
 
Bhaijaan said:
Cody Rhodes isn’t very sellable. People had a lot of sympathy for him as the underdog babyface, and that ended with him becoming champion. It’s just tough for babyfaces, they have to be genuinely interesting or funny people to sell long term.
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He is still super over with the target audience that is the kids.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
He is still super over with the target audience that is the kids.
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But not like a John Cena which is is what I think @Bhaijaan is alluding to, plus I’ve noticed the casual international fanbase are not really that into him. Cody is a decent North American product but I suppose this is his first reign so maybe the criticism is a little harsh.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
They 100% were.
But the second Wargames match Undisputed Era vs Ricochet, Dunne and War Raiders was one of the best spotfests I have seen. Even with all the spots, there was this story being told about Pete Dunne and Ricochet earning each other's respect to deal with Adam Cole.
Or the 4th one where Undisputed Era were the faces for the first time. They were good.
The first Wargames match at SS with Bloodline vs KO, Drew, etc was good due to the undertold story of Sami gaining Roman's trust. Last year it felt like a rehash and only Randy's return made it exciting. This year it feels more manufactured than ever.
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They wont do matches like that, part of it is the performers and second thing, most the wrestlers work on the road do they will never permit them to risk injury. But the thing is if they follow the ancient War Games template, spots are not the point of the match…
 
shaz619 said:
But not like a John Cena which is is what I think @Bhaijaan is alluding to, plus I’ve noticed the casual international fanbase are not really that into him. Cody is a decent North American product but I suppose this is his first reign so maybe the criticism is a little harsh.
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It's a combination of both things. WWE absolutely having no plans for Cody after Mania. Also not helped by Cody's repetitive promos. Drew fared a lot better as a champ than Cody in his first reign IMO. There was intensity and meaning in his promos even though it was without any crowd. He still did a lot better. And his blockbuster feud with Randy was brilliant.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
It's a combination of both things. WWE absolutely having no plans for Cody after Mania. Also not helped by Cody's repetitive promos. Drew fared a lot better as a champ than Cody in his first reign IMO. There was intensity and meaning in his promos even though it was without any crowd. He still did a lot better. And his blockbuster feud with Randy was brilliant.
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Drew arguably is a better all round performer though Cody slightly more marketable and they’ve seen there is upside in having him replace Reigns as the next top guy, long road ahead for Cody though and there’s no Vince to help him out either
 
BunnyRabbit said:
He is still super over with the target audience that is the kids.
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shaz619 said:
But not like a John Cena which is is what I think @Bhaijaan is alluding to, plus I’ve noticed the casual international fanbase are not really that into him. Cody is a decent North American product but I suppose this is his first reign so maybe the criticism is a little harsh.
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The international fan doesn’t quite relate all that to Cody being portrayed as the American dream. They respect his progress, his professionalism and hard work but they don’t vibe with his character.

A heel turn at some point could probably work for him. He’s shown in the past he has it in him.
 
Gunther is straight out of the attitude era. His disses are legendary.
 
Bhaijaan said:
The international fan doesn’t quite relate all that to Cody being portrayed as the American dream. They respect his progress, his professionalism and hard work but they don’t vibe with his character.

A heel turn at some point could probably work for him. He’s shown in the past he has it in him.
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Neither was Cena's marine inspired character relatable but he made audience care about him eventually and Cody has his task cut out for him too.
 
Mah Gawd the GOAT is back!!!, now I need to catch up on what’s happened in this bloodline feud how many weeks back do I need to go on YT guys 🤣🤣
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Punk's body may be battered at this point of his career but man that guy is one top notch story teller.
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It is battered but to be fair his work & rehabilitation has been handled really well by the WWE and as we’ve seen, he can generate big $$$$$ without being there every week like a sort of special attraction. You have to say even his biggest critics would not have expected the run he has had post injury.
 
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