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The Wrestling Discussion Thread

RedwoodOriginal said:
Why was she body-shamed though? She has a fairly good physique for someone of her size. Seems like a bunch of $cumb@gs were trying to knock her down a peg because of other reasons.
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It’s one of those questions we will never find the answers to, like one for me is why is Adam Cole called a cuck in some spaces…
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Yeah but there are too few big men that can actually work. Braun for me, did not know how to work. He didn't understand in-ring psychology eventhough he was more athetlic than most big men. And I absolutely hated it when he did his dumb chuchoo train thing outside the ring. Big men matches were where he shined, which isn't surprising considering that the psychology is a whole lot simpler there, but how many big men are even left in WWE these days? I feel like he has wrestled them all. Personally I was never a fan of him and am glad I won't have to see him on WWE TV anymore.

AEW feels like the most likely landing spot for her, just because of the money, creative freedom, and Tony wanting to stick it to the Fed.
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I will agree to disagree on Braun, I know you much rather see him at the circus locked up in a cage then in the ring
 
shaz619 said:
Like how can you be such a blatant liar LOL does he even know what he’s saying? old age or what, it’s most likely him being just being a scumbag.
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I think its very likely that he was told the right name and this idiot just messed it up on TV multiple times without anyone correcting him. I guess what I mean to say is, Hogan is a $cumb@g
 
This Gunther-Pat MacAfee feud is getting a bit cheesy, isn't it lads? :kp

Whenever a feud has to resort to the babyface saying 'BAH-GOD I'M AN AMERICAN', you know you're in trouble.

If this match is anything more than an extended squash match then I feel like it will be an embarrassment and a complete burial of Gunther.
 
I'm liking the Backlash card so far though.

Besides Becky v Lyra, which nobody cares about, there are some strong matches on the card. Interested to see how Cena v Orton and Gunther v McAfee turn out. Main-event specifically because Cena did not look great in the ring at WrestleMania. But if anyone can get a good match out of him, its a pro like Orton.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
What the f is up with his face?? Weirdest make-up job in a movie I've seen in a while.

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Getting him to look as close to Mark Kerr as possible who had a unique look to say the least, I got mildly high expectations for this as it’s an A24 release and nothing tops the narrative revolving around a fighter when it comes to drama.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I'm liking the Backlash card so far though.

Besides Becky v Lyra, which nobody cares about, there are some strong matches on the card. Interested to see how Cena v Orton and Gunther v McAfee turn out. Main-event specifically because Cena did not look great in the ring at WrestleMania. But if anyone can get a good match out of him, its a pro like Orton.
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McAfee can work and is one of the better celeb workers ever, arguably the best. But it’s a cluster F to book him in a match with Gunther, I think @Suleiman is spot on that he rubbed the big nose p!$$y the wrong way, this is punishment due to H’s insecurity, Gunther’s a real pro and will do what’s needed, but this is like a humiliation ritual for Gunther and no one has booked him so weakly before like this.

I liked the exchanges between Hogan & Lyra, Hogan at least is shooting on the fans as part of a programme but what’s H’s excuse for always doing so? Hogan is bringing out the best in Lyra and I am loving her new found intensity.

I think Cena can still go and did a great job, I know what you expect in a match and I would put the lack of flow towards the end of the WM ME to Travis Scott and H’s weird decision to use him in that capacity.
 
shaz619 said:
Getting him to look as close to Mark Kerr as possible who had a unique look to say the least, I got mildly high expectations for this as it’s an A24 release and nothing tops the narrative revolving around a fighter when it comes to drama.
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I had mildly high expectations for this too because its A24 and because its directed by one half of the Safdie brothers, who made Good Time and Uncut Gems. But after reading some of the early reviews it feels like this could be a major critical and commercial bomb.

Which means that The Rock will probably be back in WWE by the fall. :wahab2
 
shaz619 said:
McAfee can work and is one of the better celeb workers ever, arguably the best. But it’s a cluster F to book him in a match with Gunther, I think @Suleiman is spot on that he rubbed the big nose p!$$y the wrong way, this is punishment due to H’s insecurity, Gunther’s a real pro and will do what’s needed, but this is like a humiliation ritual for Gunther and no one has booked him so weakly before like this.

I liked the exchanges between Hogan & Lyra, Hogan at least is shooting on the fans as part of a programme but what’s H’s excuse for always doing so? Hogan is bringing out the best in Lyra and I am loving her new found intensity.

I think Cena can still go and did a great job, I know what you expect in a match and I would put the lack of flow towards the end of the WM ME to Travis Scott and H’s weird decision to use him in that capacity.
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Yeah I agree but this just feels like such a downgrade. Maybe they can use it to branch him off to another feud where he is beating the crap out of Pat at the end of the match and someone big comes in to make the save. Oldberg perhaps?

I actually don't mind Hogan in this at all. I can understand why the fans are going after her but imo it feels like she preempted it so everything kinda plays in with her gimmick. The 'garbage' comment was more related to her saying the word "garbage" like a million times in her promo lol. But I just don't care about Lyra at all. They have done nothing to make us care about her. Infact they given her the same super happy, goody two shoes babyface gimmick they give every babyface they don't know what to do with.

I'm not expecting Cena to deliver a 5 star classic but I do think he needs to pick up the pace a little bit and maybe not shout every spot in the match to his opponent that even I can hear what he is saying lol.
 
shaz619 said:
Very rough time in the world, pro-raslin is an escape and HBK is going to put a smile on your face, watch this ya”ll:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1919907709660324301

H is incapable of skits like these, even with his team of 500 writers; what does he even have them do ?
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Hahahaha, stuff like this will never get old in pro-wrestling :wahab2

As for your comment, that's because you need a certain level of imagination to come up with stuff like this. Which big chief don't have.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I had mildly high expectations for this too because its A24 and because its directed by one half of the Safdie brothers, who made Good Time and Uncut Gems. But after reading some of the early reviews it feels like this could be a major critical and commercial bomb.

Which means that The Rock will probably be back in WWE by the fall. :wahab2
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With Travis Scott* lol

I really hope not, even the worst combat movies are like at least a 5/10.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Yeah I agree but this just feels like such a downgrade. Maybe they can use it to branch him off to another feud where he is beating the crap out of Pat at the end of the match and someone big comes in to make the save. Oldberg perhaps?

I actually don't mind Hogan in this at all. I can understand why the fans are going after her but imo it feels like she preempted it so everything kinda plays in with her gimmick. The 'garbage' comment was more related to her saying the word "garbage" like a million times in her promo lol. But I just don't care about Lyra at all. They have done nothing to make us care about her. Infact they given her the same super happy, goody two shoes babyface gimmick they give every babyface they don't know what to do with.

I'm not expecting Cena to deliver a 5 star classic but I do think he needs to pick up the pace a little bit and maybe not shout every spot in the match to his opponent that even I can hear what he is saying lol.
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I wouldn’t mind that but am pretty sure Darth Burius is going to make sure Pat goes 50/50 with Gunther, in-fact that’s a trend in every match he books, there is not one creative brain cell in his mind.

I would say I feel the same on Lyra except don’t you think she is showing you another layer to her bow by cooking Hogan like this.

Really? I didn’t pay attention to that but then again it must have been 4am when the ME started over here, I think I read something about it though, I’ve not had an issue with his work and he just needs to heel it up even more imo
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
@shaz619 Give this a listen, its hilarious. :ashwin

This Hogan-Bischoff combo is just poison.

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I will add it to the list lmao Am not surprised, they bought two companies down along with sh!t stain, I have so much JC material to catch-up on.

I downloaded his review of the RAW Netflix debut episode on a Boeing 737 flight I felt like I was going to die along with every other passenger 🤣, the last thing I’d have listened to would have been his review of CM Punk vs Seth Rollins; what a beautiful match & review.
 
shaz619 said:
I will add it to the list lmao Am not surprised, they bought two companies down along with sh!t stain, I have so much JC material to catch-up on.

I downloaded his review of the RAW Netflix debut episode on a Boeing 737 flight I felt like I was going to die along with every other passenger 🤣, the last thing I’d have listened to would have been his review of CM Punk vs Seth Rollins; what a beautiful match & review.
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Hahah damn
 
shaz619 said:
I wouldn’t mind that but am pretty sure Darth Burius is going to make sure Pat goes 50/50 with Gunther, in-fact that’s a trend in every match he books, there is not one creative brain cell in his mind.

I would say I feel the same on Lyra except don’t you think she is showing you another layer to her bow by cooking Hogan like this.

Really? I didn’t pay attention to that but then again it must have been 4am when the ME started over here, I think I read something about it though, I’ve not had an issue with his work and he just needs to heel it up even more imo
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If he does that then he might as well come in the ring and pin Gunther himself. It would totally bury him.

I see what she's trying to do but somehow the stuff just feels to rehearsed and the conviction isn't there in the delivery. I don't know how much of her you have seen of her in NXT, but as someone who hasn't seen anything of her previously she comes across as too much of a white-meat babyface.

Oh yeah. But it was one match that was quite poorly though-out and booked anyway. Let's see how they do here where you will have a pro-Randy Orton St. Louis crowd.
 
John Cena 2014-16 midcard run was special. He made the US Championship mean something and had some of the greatest matches of the modern era (in my opinion) with AJ Styles. What was most refreshing to see though was him putting his ego aside and doing his best to elevate young talent because he knew that it was only a matter of time before he would transition to Hollywood full-time. Seeing him do Canadian destroyers, suicide dives and top-rope stunners was also something I didn't have on my bingo card lol.

Can you imagine The Rock or Stone Cold doing something like this in 2002 or 2003? let alone $cumb@g Hogan? This is why Cena will always have my respect. Eventhough I hated most of that PG-era and hated seeing him on top during that time, at the end of the day he was always a stand-up guy who just wanted to do what was best for the company and the fans. He was never an ego-maniac obsessed with politicking and holding guys back just to maintain his position on the card.

Punk famously said in an interview (may have been that infamous shoot interview) that when it was decided that Punk would go over Cena at MITB 2011, Cena was glad that someone else was finally being elevated in that main-event position instead of him.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920161528520585519
 
shaz619 said:
Vince had Russo on a leash so I don’t see that comparison remotely, the only US promoter who knew how to manage sh!t stain so it’s mind boggling to see him being compared to him, Tony Khan is much better placed to compare to his great feats of bringing companies to the ground. When a promoter of Vinces’s calibre has such a vast resume, it’s straight forward to pick segments you didn’t like, but I don’t believe they were simply too big to fail under him now that you’ve seen the destruction of AEW with all the resource & talent behind them, Vince liked comedy and made some silly match-ups, but he drew a line 90% off the time or else the company would have been in the gutters. You mention Pat MacAfee but that was fine as a comedy segment which you need at Mania - I rather that then sit for hours watching cold match after cold match booked by H, but that same guy is now working a PPV with Gunther out blue and it was in his diary, we just didn’t comprehend all the little random tid-bits on commentary every time Gunther came out to Pat’s displeasure so very clever from H, this is just one example of knowing where to position such talent opposed to giving someone like Orange Cassidy a monster push because that’s what all the lapsed fans were dying to see or the nepotism we were against but all of a suddenly marked out for when some random untrained garbage got prime time slots on national TV. I am telling you his last great masterstroke actually was signing Cody & having him work with Lesnar before elevating him to the ME, there is no guarantee that under H he would be a top guy.

I can’t recall Cena v R-Truth but am glad R-Truth got the opportunities which have been depraved from minorities, sure R-Truth was a comedy act but I was always pleased to see him get the rub of the green having followed him during the NWA Wildside days, he was respectable champion; that match-up on paper is serviceable compared to Logan Paul vs AJ Styles; the latter embodies the kind of wrestling you love, just let it sink in that he was jobbed out like that, in-fact Vince treated all the guys from the golden era of indie wrestling pretty well when you consider how the smarks kept banging on about how they would be doomed; they all became huge stars under Vince.

If you listen to the podcast Punk did with Colt Cobana right after leaving, you will see it was 95% H who made his life a living hell, if anyone is in doubt about his influence during the reign of terror then this put all those doubts to bed. Vince is the guy who pushed Punk right to the top, it was H who attempted to sabotage him each step of the way. And be under no illusion that it’s H why Punk is back, it’s the Netflix execs & Nick Khan; H simply had to play ball, Punk made it clear that it was Nick Khan who was most influential in his return.

You lot might feel different but I wasn’t dying for H to take over all the way back in 2019, I attended more events during the Vince era then vice versa and especially up to 2018. WWE does have a resilient structure but it’s being taken for granted, I genuinely don’t see them as being better of under the current booker, they’ve failed to create new stars, allowed their ego to meddle in the affairs concerning talents who are popular with the fans, show zero courage in creating or revamping established characters, treat their championships like garbage, create non-sensical stories out of thin air based on cues we should recall from 12 months ago, the product is saved by the big names and a shrewd business man in Nick Khan.

Lets just say hypothetically you’re right about everything not being that much different, is that really what you hoped for when Vince left? I think people have been way too forgiving of H and now are starting to find how one dimensional he is.
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I'm talking about Russo's booking in TNA and WCW. In WWE, he was just a writer. Vince was the one running the show.

With Vince's booking, it wasn't just one thing. It ranged from everything from minor stuff like segments that were in bad taste to major stuff like the booking of Roman Reigns, or building up Kofi only to have him squashed in seconds by Brock. Triple H's reign of terror had Vince's full support and backing to the extend that when someone like Pat Patterson questioned Vince on him pushing his son-in-law so much, he got fired. I'm not denying that Vince had his moments of brilliance. Booking Cody with Lesnar was a very smart way to elevate Cody. But when you think of all the bad ideas, poorly though-out storylines...all the wrestlers he wasted, the misses by far outweigh the hits. Especially after the Ruthless Aggression era ended and the product became softer, less imaginative and not as entertaining.

It's not about whether R-Truth is a great wrestler or not. My point is that the way R-Truth was booked at that point---which was basically as a comedy wrestler---did not necessitate that kind of push. It's the same as if you had Otis wrestling John Cena for the WWE Championship. I'm sure some people think he's a good wrestler. But the way he has been booked and presented, it doesn't make sense. He did something far worse when he made Jinder Mahal world champion. That guy went from being a literal jobber on SmackDown to the WWE Champion in the space of weeks. And I don't even remember why they did it. But it was probably because of some short-sighted reason like having an upcoming house show in India or something.

I think you're giving Triple H too much credit there. I don't think there's any denying that he had the biggest hand in keeping Punk down. But there were numerous occasions where Vince had the opportunity to push Punk between 2013-14. Even when Punk was world champion I remember that most of the PPVs were main-evented by Cena. If Vince was such a fan of Punk he had multiple opportunities to show that, but he didn't. By the time he was fired the company his booking had essentially gone down the toilet and he was working a midcard feud with Bryan against the Wyatts. The fact that the first thing they thought about was him v HHH when they thought about his WrestleMania 30 plans shows: a) they didn't care about him that much or see him as much of star, and b) they had no meaningful storyline for him in their plans.

I'm not saying that these TKO people are great people. But I think me and many other fans were just sick of Vince's vision of WWE and wanted to see something different. I'll be honest, so far it hasn't been great. But I'm not sure if it has exactly been worse either? Because with Vince I feel like there would always be some strange, out-of-the-blue booking decision after every couple of weeks that would infuriate me. I'm not going to defend the current booking but I am still willing to give the new regime a chance simply because I was sick of Vince and his way of booking WWE.
 
shaz619 said:
TNA could have been something with the same resources as AEW, unfortunately they made the fatal mistake of handing the reigns to sh!t stain, Hogan & Bischoff. You look back and the passion from their audience was a lot more organic, TNA were genuinely trying to be a proper alternative and innovated the NA style, in-doing so showcasing talent like AJ & Joe, being the true pioneers of the modern women’s wrestling boom and unconventional booking. I was watching a top TNA entrances video and seeing the passion from that early 2000’s audience was something, unlike the fake adulation from AEW neckbeards that would pop for pockets taking a dump in the middle of the ring. TNA had something man, just not the backing and made terrible managerial decisions, but they had the product unlike Tony CrackPot Khan.
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Dixie Carter was kind of a dumb@$$ too tbh. Someone like her, who understood nothing about wrestling, should not have been running the company.

When the "Fire Russo" chants started in TNA in the mid-2000s apparently, Vince Russo, or some other backstage stooge told Dixie that the segments where they specifically chanted "Fire Russo," were written by Dutch Mantell, which was obviously a complete lie because it was Russo himself who was writing the segments. Dixie, being the m0ron that she is, bought it and herself later said that the "Fire Russo" chants got so bad, that she told the writers that the next time she heard those chants, she was going to fire somebody -other- than Russo.

And then ofcourse she, in all her infinite wisdom thought that bringing on the faces of failure of WCW was a genius idea. Only for those dip$hit$ to turn it into WWE lite and do something as brainless as having Impact go head-to-head with Monday Night Raw.

Personally, I will always have a soft-spot for TNA especially before Bischoff and Hogan took over and ruined it. I guess the good thing about TNA in its early years (not talking about the NWA Weekly PPV days) was that Jeff Jarrett had enough influence where it wasn't just Russo being allowed to run wild. That period between when they got on TV to before Hogan/Bischoff came on is great though. Despite the presence of Russo, there was enough great stuff that stood out like the Main Event Mafia storyline, Angle v Joe, X-Division, all those gory Abyss matches, Kong v Gail Kim. I loved everything from the presentation, the commentary (Tenay and Don West <3) to the soundstage crowd. It just looked different to WWE and was a true alternative.

Once Hogan and Bischoff came one, I feel like these two made it a point to destroy everything that made TNA, TNA and remake the company in their own image. A big part of which was burying TNA homegrown talent for WWE rejects.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
John Cena 2014-16 midcard run was special. He made the US Championship mean something and had some of the greatest matches of the modern era (in my opinion) with AJ Styles. What was most refreshing to see though was him putting his ego aside and doing his best to elevate young talent because he knew that it was only a matter of time before he would transition to Hollywood full-time. Seeing him do Canadian destroyers, suicide dives and top-rope stunners was also something I didn't have on my bingo card lol.

Can you imagine The Rock or Stone Cold doing something like this in 2002 or 2003? let alone $cumb@g Hogan? This is why Cena will always have my respect. Eventhough I hated most of that PG-era and hated seeing him on top during that time, at the end of the day he was always a stand-up guy who just wanted to do what was best for the company and the fans. He was never an ego-maniac obsessed with politicking and holding guys back just to maintain his position on the card.

Punk famously said in an interview (may have been that infamous shoot interview) that when it was decided that Punk would go over Cena at MITB 2011, Cena was glad that someone else was finally being elevated in that main-event position instead of him.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920161528520585519
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Can’t ever take that from him, for a top guy he was probably the most stand up worker when it came to doing jobs 90% off the time, probably to his own detriment late on; always looked to reinvent himself between the ropes and was encouraging of competition, I’ve also heard that during various programmes he gave his opponents a pass to say what they wanted. See, Vince booked AJ in that position, when everyone expected him to get buried, people underestimate what a petty guy H is, if H was working with him at that time, you know exactly what would have happened.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I'm talking about Russo's booking in TNA and WCW. In WWE, he was just a writer. Vince was the one running the show.

With Vince's booking, it wasn't just one thing. It ranged from everything from minor stuff like segments that were in bad taste to major stuff like the booking of Roman Reigns, or building up Kofi only to have him squashed in seconds by Brock. Triple H's reign of terror had Vince's full support and backing to the extend that when someone like Pat Patterson questioned Vince on him pushing his son-in-law so much, he got fired. I'm not denying that Vince had his moments of brilliance. Booking Cody with Lesnar was a very smart way to elevate Cody. But when you think of all the bad ideas, poorly though-out storylines...all the wrestlers he wasted, the misses by far outweigh the hits. Especially after the Ruthless Aggression era ended and the product became softer, less imaginative and not as entertaining.

It's not about whether R-Truth is a great wrestler or not. My point is that the way R-Truth was booked at that point---which was basically as a comedy wrestler---did not necessitate that kind of push. It's the same as if you had Otis wrestling John Cena for the WWE Championship. I'm sure some people think he's a good wrestler. But the way he has been booked and presented, it doesn't make sense. He did something far worse when he made Jinder Mahal world champion. That guy went from being a literal jobber on SmackDown to the WWE Champion in the space of weeks. And I don't even remember why they did it. But it was probably because of some short-sighted reason like having an upcoming house show in India or something.

I think you're giving Triple H too much credit there. I don't think there's any denying that he had the biggest hand in keeping Punk down. But there were numerous occasions where Vince had the opportunity to push Punk between 2013-14. Even when Punk was world champion I remember that most of the PPVs were main-evented by Cena. If Vince was such a fan of Punk he had multiple opportunities to show that, but he didn't. By the time he was fired the company his booking had essentially gone down the toilet and he was working a midcard feud with Bryan against the Wyatts. The fact that the first thing they thought about was him v HHH when they thought about his WrestleMania 30 plans shows: a) they didn't care about him that much or see him as much of star, and b) they had no meaningful storyline for him in their plans.

I'm not saying that these TKO people are great people. But I think me and many other fans were just sick of Vince's vision of WWE and wanted to see something different. I'll be honest, so far it hasn't been great. But I'm not sure if it has exactly been worse either? Because with Vince I feel like there would always be some strange, out-of-the-blue booking decision after every couple of weeks that would infuriate me. I'm not going to defend the current booking but I am still willing to give the new regime a chance simply because I was sick of Vince and his way of booking WWE.
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I can’t see the negatives outweighing the positives at all, this is a guy who took wrestling main stream, gave us the AE & RA eras, especially the latter for me, put on some of the greatest events of all time and created unforgettable characters. If there’s stuff to criticise then it’s mainly his booking choices after the steroid scandal while WCW were starting to get ahead, I know it was only 82 or 83 weeks but Eric is the only promoter who gave Vince a bloody nose, ultimately though Vince found a way to adapt, then you can criticise for the policy’s and this is all promoters, which unfortunately played a small part in what Benoit would do which lead to a dead product; but Vince revived it by giving Punk a shot at the big leagues, and H attempted to sabotage that, be glad Punk had an historic run because people still recall that, if it was indeed up to H he’d have been jobbed into space, you see how he dealt with him at the height of the summer of Punk, so Punk was booked as well as he possibly could have been with H continuously trying to meddle in booking affairs, though the lead up to WM 29 was a very low point for my own viewership. I agree that Vince needs to take some responsibility for the reign of terror, but when you look at the history of wrestling and family nepotism; I’ve never seen anyone use their influence so negatively like H to the detriment of the business, this is a guy who sold the soul of professional wrestling to the devil.

Punk himself will admit that WM 28/29 were his moments, he didn’t begrudge Bryan getting the main event because WM 30 was his time, and they wanted to throw him another bone like they did the year before but Punk did not see H on the same level of a Taker and rightly so. Any other year, you could have made something of a feud between Punk & H providing the latter was going to put him over, but not main eventing for three straight manias had to hurt, and even more when you get asked to work with a guy who played a big hand in making sure Punk did not get the main event spotlight. There are ways in which I think Punk could still have been in the WM 30 main event and I have an interesting idea on that but that was the year H needed someone to work with to and there was no chance in hell anything else was going to happen.

I see most will see R-Truth as a comedy guy but to me he was still Ron Killings the first African American to win the NWA worlds championship, see it more in the vein of say a Polkadot Dusty Rhodes challenging for the world championship. If there’s an R-Truth criticism it could be they didn’t explore his NWA wildside character a but more, other then that he was treated well, and so was Kofi, I genuinely thought he would drop the belt in the show I attended after Mani in Brooklyn, or within a few weeks, he had a solid run; say what you want but Vince is well ahead of most when it comes to knowing how a top level star needs to be booked and Brock crushing Kofi was the right decision, much like how I would expect Gunther to treat Pat, this is how you elevate a top level star and you can use them down the line to create more main eventers, what would be achieved if Kofi went 50/50 with Brock, we got a headline, Brock looked like the beast he should and Kofi can come back again, and he clearly did until H stole his New Day Ticket money that racist piece of crap. We got Mark Henry as champ, King Booker, Lashley et al Vince was pro diversity long before it became a thing in the work place.

Oh and he made Jinder champion! who gives chances like this! the first south asian champion, honestly, you can question how he randomly got the shot (mainly so he could put 4/10 over in India), but Jinder was in shape, a solid gimmick and he had a decent run, in-fact his entire reign was more memorable then any of H’s title reigns tbh and he had some great matches on PPV with the likes Randy and AJ, it lead to a special title change in the UK, I will forever regret not being able to make that show due to a couple of people letting me down, the roster backstage was full of praise for Jinder to in how he carried himself.

I think Vince can easily be criticised but the highs and lows should be rated overall proportional to how long he was a promoter and he was on top for a very long time, he has a long list of poor decisions but a lot more good ones, otherwise the business doesn’t survive either or get to a point where it built a resilient structure. And he had a knack for doing something mind boggling, but on the flip side he had great instincts, created great characters and moments which made you suspend your disbelief and that’s missing, the big events are no longer a spectacle and creatively, WWE is interesting due to its big names and their influence, H has been a very mediocre and predictable booker beyond that, he criticises his fans and under this new regime the normal people who support the business are not treated well, Vince never put prices up like this and heck he always kept the Network at 9.99 in the UK! I am missing the Network already.

However, I accept that fans became jaded at times with his creative and wanted something different (AEW) or (H), it’s just that both have not done that great either after the honeymoon period, I expected that, and I think people genuinely wanted a lot more and they need to keep that in mind and attack H especially a lot more.
 
shaz619 said:
I can’t see the negatives outweighing the positives at all, this is a guy who took wrestling main stream, gave us the AE & RA eras, especially the latter for me, put on some of the greatest events of all time and created unforgettable characters. If there’s stuff to criticise then it’s mainly his booking choices after the steroid scandal while WCW were starting to get ahead, I know it was only 82 or 83 weeks but Eric is the only promoter who gave Vince a bloody nose, ultimately though Vince found a way to adapt, then you can criticise for the policy’s and this is all promoters, which unfortunately played a small part in what Benoit would do which lead to a dead product; but Vince revived it by giving Punk a shot at the big leagues, and H attempted to sabotage that, be glad Punk had an historic run because people still recall that, if it was indeed up to H he’d have been jobbed into space, you see how he dealt with him at the height of the summer of Punk, so Punk was booked as well as he possibly could have been with H continuously trying to meddle in booking affairs, though the lead up to WM 29 was a very low point for my own viewership. I agree that Vince needs to take some responsibility for the reign of terror, but when you look at the history of wrestling and family nepotism; I’ve never seen anyone use their influence so negatively like H to the detriment of the business, this is a guy who sold the soul of professional wrestling to the devil.

Punk himself will admit that WM 28/29 were his moments, he didn’t begrudge Bryan getting the main event because WM 30 was his time, and they wanted to throw him another bone like they did the year before but Punk did not see H on the same level of a Taker and rightly so. Any other year, you could have made something of a feud between Punk & H providing the latter was going to put him over, but not main eventing for three straight manias had to hurt, and even more when you get asked to work with a guy who played a big hand in making sure Punk did not get the main event spotlight. There are ways in which I think Punk could still have been in the WM 30 main event and I have an interesting idea on that but that was the year H needed someone to work with to and there was no chance in hell anything else was going to happen.

I see most will see R-Truth as a comedy guy but to me he was still Ron Killings the first African American to win the NWA worlds championship, see it more in the vein of say a Polkadot Dusty Rhodes challenging for the world championship. If there’s an R-Truth criticism it could be they didn’t explore his NWA wildside character a but more, other then that he was treated well, and so was Kofi, I genuinely thought he would drop the belt in the show I attended after Mani in Brooklyn, or within a few weeks, he had a solid run; say what you want but Vince is well ahead of most when it comes to knowing how a top level star needs to be booked and Brock crushing Kofi was the right decision, much like how I would expect Gunther to treat Pat, this is how you elevate a top level star and you can use them down the line to create more main eventers, what would be achieved if Kofi went 50/50 with Brock, we got a headline, Brock looked like the beast he should and Kofi can come back again, and he clearly did until H stole his New Day Ticket money that racist piece of crap. We got Mark Henry as champ, King Booker, Lashley et al Vince was pro diversity long before it became a thing in the work place.

Oh and he made Jinder champion! who gives chances like this! the first south asian champion, honestly, you can question how he randomly got the shot (mainly so he could put 4/10 over in India), but Jinder was in shape, a solid gimmick and he had a decent run, in-fact his entire reign was more memorable then any of H’s title reigns tbh and he had some great matches on PPV with the likes Randy and AJ, it lead to a special title change in the UK, I will forever regret not being able to make that show due to a couple of people letting me down, the roster backstage was full of praise for Jinder to in how he carried himself.

I think Vince can easily be criticised but the highs and lows should be rated overall proportional to how long he was a promoter and he was on top for a very long time, he has a long list of poor decisions but a lot more good ones, otherwise the business doesn’t survive either or get to a point where it built a resilient structure. And he had a knack for doing something mind boggling, but on the flip side he had great instincts, created great characters and moments which made you suspend your disbelief and that’s missing, the big events are no longer a spectacle and creatively, WWE is interesting due to its big names and their influence, H has been a very mediocre and predictable booker beyond that, he criticises his fans and under this new regime the normal people who support the business are not treated well, Vince never put prices up like this and heck he always kept the Network at 9.99 in the UK! I am missing the Network already.

However, I accept that fans became jaded at times with his creative and wanted something different (AEW) or (H), it’s just that both have not done that great either after the honeymoon period, I expected that, and I think people genuinely wanted a lot more and they need to keep that in mind and attack H especially a lot more.
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At the end of the day, Vince is the only pro wrestling promoter who had the strength to come back and take over as the undisputed king of the promoters. No one has been able to make a respectable comeback after receiving a blow. Bischoff was embarrasing in TNA when he allied with Hogan. He excelled in every role he took, commentator, booker, promoter, heel, manager etc. But all of that doesn't change the fact Vince probably is a piece of s in reality too.
I watched R Truths NWA title victory. It was a 4 man elimination match I think. And he was known as Ron The Truth in TNA i think
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Dixie Carter was kind of a dumb@$$ too tbh. Someone like her, who understood nothing about wrestling, should not have been running the company.

When the "Fire Russo" chants started in TNA in the mid-2000s apparently, Vince Russo, or some other backstage stooge told Dixie that the segments where they specifically chanted "Fire Russo," were written by Dutch Mantell, which was obviously a complete lie because it was Russo himself who was writing the segments. Dixie, being the m0ron that she is, bought it and herself later said that the "Fire Russo" chants got so bad, that she told the writers that the next time she heard those chants, she was going to fire somebody -other- than Russo.

And then ofcourse she, in all her infinite wisdom thought that bringing on the faces of failure of WCW was a genius idea. Only for those dip$hit$ to turn it into WWE lite and do something as brainless as having Impact go head-to-head with Monday Night Raw.

Personally, I will always have a soft-spot for TNA especially before Bischoff and Hogan took over and ruined it. I guess the good thing about TNA in its early years (not talking about the NWA Weekly PPV days) was that Jeff Jarrett had enough influence where it wasn't just Russo being allowed to run wild. That period between when they got on TV to before Hogan/Bischoff came on is great though. Despite the presence of Russo, there was enough great stuff that stood out like the Main Event Mafia storyline, Angle v Joe, X-Division, all those gory Abyss matches, Kong v Gail Kim. I loved everything from the presentation, the commentary (Tenay and Don West <3) to the soundstage crowd. It just looked different to WWE and was a true alternative.

Once Hogan and Bischoff came one, I feel like these two made it a point to destroy everything that made TNA, TNA and remake the company in their own image. A big part of which was burying TNA homegrown talent for WWE rejects.
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This is the perfect example you don’t let socialites and crackpots run a business, it’s a just a toy for these rich kids / play-thing, you need to bring someone with experience in business and the wrestling world, and it can’t be a worker unless he or she has broken into the top level or is a 2nd or 3rd gen talent who has seen their family run a promotion first hand.

The Jarett’s knew what they were doing and if they held on a little longer, who knows what the shape of wrestling would be today, ideally they needed a big time investor who let them run the show, but they had limited vision and cashed out, especially Jeff, I can understand his father wanting a break but Jeff made a big mistake in not pushing to keep the control away from Panda Energy, in hindsight, they should have given them the 30% and kept the controlling interest.

I genuinely believe that TNA could have been a viable threat as a competitor to WWE, maybe not overtaken them, but really tapped into their market share in the US.

A shame.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
At the end of the day, Vince is the only pro wrestling promoter who had the strength to come back and take over as the undisputed king of the promoters. No one has been able to make a respectable comeback after receiving a blow. Bischoff was embarrasing in TNA when he allied with Hogan. He excelled in every role he took, commentator, booker, promoter, heel, manager etc. But all of that doesn't change the fact Vince probably is a piece of s in reality too.
I watched R Truths NWA title victory. It was a 4 man elimination match I think. And he was known as Ron The Truth in TNA i think
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Yeah being ‘The Truth’ was his character, he went by Ron ‘The Truth’ Killings,

This was special man:

IMG_6979.jpeg
 
The reason I think Jeff cashed out is because he started GFW many years later which was an abject failure, so it’s not like he wasn’t open to continuing a major venture in the promotional wrestling space, GFW was desperation after realising what could have been with a promising brand which was established.
 
Mizz deserves a special wing in the HOF, who hasn’t this guy made?

Forever making wrestlers look like a million dollars:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920576942828630121

I am glad he got that brief WWE title run as a reward for his services and it was so hilarious, the whole thing.

Meanwhile Triple Doofus booked his MITB holders to win mid-card titles 🤡
Maybe Vince knew what Doofus would do and tried to protect Theory with the briefcase, but Doofus and his rundian style pettiness had other ideas, is a coincidence that he loves a certain part of asia so much 🤔
 
shaz619 said:
This is the perfect example you don’t let socialites and crackpots run a business, it’s a just a toy for these rich kids / play-thing, you need to bring someone with experience in business and the wrestling world, and it can’t be a worker unless he or she has broken into the top level or is a 2nd or 3rd gen talent who has seen their family run a promotion first hand.

The Jarett’s knew what they were doing and if they held on a little longer, who knows what the shape of wrestling would be today, ideally they needed a big time investor who let them run the show, but they had limited vision and cashed out, especially Jeff, I can understand his father wanting a break but Jeff made a big mistake in not pushing to keep the control away from Panda Energy, in hindsight, they should have given them the 30% and kept the controlling interest.

I genuinely believe that TNA could have been a viable threat as a competitor to WWE, maybe not overtaken them, but really tapped into their market share in the US.

A shame.
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They were drawing some fantastic numbers on Spike TV too during that time with an average of 2 million+ viewers weekly. The same type of numbers that RAW was drawing last year before it went on Netflix. AEW can't even dream of such a thing lol.

Yes, Jarrett should have had more foresight to get someone smarter involved. Over time his power in the company also whittled away. But I think generally his booking was rooted in solid, old-school pro-wrestling foundations which reflected in the product. I think back to that Angle v Joe feud and they did such an amazing job building it up as a feud between two legit shooters. That's what sport-based presentation was, as opposed to what Tony thinks he is doing. I think it was Dutch Mantell and Jeremy Borash who put that whole thing together. TNA had some really capable guys working for them. Cornette, Dutch Mantell, Jeremy Borash, who is now working with WWE and has a big hand in production side putting together video packages and vignettes. Their director David Sahadi was an ex-WWE employee. Even many of their wrestlers are agents for WWE these days, the likes of Abyss, Booby Roode, Petey Williams and many others.

I think so too. If it had smarter people running it, it could have been an entirely different story. One of the biggest what ifs is Dixie wanting to bring Heyman on at one point. But Heyman was smart and demanded full control of creative and an equity stake in the company, which he probably knew she wouldn't give him. Reportedly, his idea was to rebuild the company around the originals. Imagine that!
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
They were drawing some fantastic numbers on Spike TV too during that time with an average of 2 million+ viewers weekly. The same type of numbers that RAW was drawing last year before it went on Netflix. AEW can't even dream of such a thing lol.

Yes, Jarrett should have had more foresight to get someone smarter involved. Over time his power in the company also whittled away. But I think generally his booking was rooted in solid, old-school pro-wrestling foundations which reflected in the product. I think back to that Angle v Joe feud and they did such an amazing job building it up as a feud between two legit shooters. That's what sport-based presentation was, as opposed to what Tony thinks he is doing. I think it was Dutch Mantell and Jeremy Borash who put that whole thing together. TNA had some really capable guys working for them. Cornette, Dutch Mantell, Jeremy Borash, who is now working with WWE and has a big hand in production side putting together video packages and vignettes. Their director David Sahadi was an ex-WWE employee. Even many of their wrestlers are agents for WWE these days, the likes of Abyss, Booby Roode, Petey Williams and many others.

I think so too. If it had smarter people running it, it could have been an entirely different story. One of the biggest what ifs is Dixie wanting to bring Heyman on at one point. But Heyman was smart and demanded full control of creative and an equity stake in the company, which he probably knew she wouldn't give him. Reportedly, his idea was to rebuild the company around the originals. Imagine that!
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Beautiful post bro, you should make a YT video on the rise & fall of TNA, and delegate some tasks to me, something I could work on without bringing H into the topic :yk3 There are a small number of people who will appreciate their viewership on SpikeTV, part of it was due to how WWE were doing in comparison, but if you judge the performance as an individual venture on national TV, the viewership was outstanding really, many AEW neckbeards can’t digest that TNA IMPACT! was a vastly superior show compared to Dynamite, my biggest issue with TNA then that PPV’s were not as polished as they could have been and they spent next to nothing in hyping the events, the advertising was terrible and the marketing department was non-existent, this was before sh!t stain and cru showed up.

Their TV was nice and tight, but the moment PE owned the company it was the beginning of the end, there were complexities behind the 30% which the Jaretts owned to and Jerry couldn’t get invested without receiving the controlling interest from his son; I am keen to understand what happened between them because Jerry wasn’t really involved with TNA after Panda came in, I suspect complexities in the family affairs in the background.

People called Jerry a genius booker but Jerry said that was only the case because he was smart enough to hire people more intelligent then him, something the likes of To y & Dixie could have really benefited from.

If HealthSouth didn’t get done for their dodgy dealings, TNA could have thrived. I think that in post Dixie era, not even Heyman could have saved them; very rarely do you hit the sweet spot in life right, TNA had all the personnel but terrible leadership, AEW have the investment but no leadership. More than having a big pot of gold, it just shows what’s important in the success of a promotional wrestling venture.
 
Now that Aleister Black is back in WWE, I think a Punk-Black feud would be something. Their wrestling styles would mesh together extremely well. Their matches would be something to watch. Do you guys see some eerie similarity between the two as well? I can't really put my finger on it. @shaz619 @RedwoodOriginal
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Nothing will ever come close to this 3:38 second piece of cinema...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920488665374961805
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They took a few steps back, slowed it down to build one hell of a narrative for arguably the greatest ME of all time, this was it guys, the peak of wrestling bah gawd almighty, I wish we could go back in time to appreciate what it was more. From the late 90’s onwards I did feel we were in the middle of something special; Rock was just too big for wrestling and Austin was always battling his injuries / addiction in the background. I don’t know if Austin’s podcast is still live, he and Jericho were like the first high profile figures in wrestling to start shooting on the mic I think, but on it, Austin said that after retirement he would drive for 100’s of miles to try and shake the adrenaline of being a former pro off and try and adjust to normal life; can’t imagine what it must have been like because Austin consistently received some crazy pops, even after his turn, he is the one guy imo who could have remained a face for a very long time without the fans going sour, did you listen to the broken skull sessions ? they were amazing, up there with JC’s pod I’d say if not better, you can listen to it in peace with kids about as well unlike a certain someone…. 😭

What did you think of the turn in Texas at WM 17? Austin regrets it but I feel he is too harsh on himself, he at least got that long awaited pay-off to that on a personal level when he wrestled KO. Just imagine how much Austin rated KO to come out of retirement to wrestle him, no one else could achieve that over the years and it wasn’t just to hit a few stunners, Austin has such a high ring IQ, he knew what fans expect in this era and he wanted to go all out, it was one of my favourite matches of the year; have to give him credit when you look at how other high profile stars never quiet hit the same notes as Austin when they returned to the ring after a long time, everything had to be perfect for Austin and he put so much thought into it, it’s like Floyd Mayweather hand picking the correct style for him, weight, rehydration clause etc to maximise his chances despite being a lighter fighter etc It just reinforced how special Austin was.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Now that Aleister Black is back in WWE, I think a Punk-Black feud would be something. Their wrestling styles would mesh together extremely well. Their matches would be something to watch. Do you guys see some eerie similarity between the two as well? I can't really put my finger on it. @shaz619 @RedwoodOriginal
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Yes mate, ignore it, I think mods are controlling it a bit better now as well, but this thread is the best sanctuary for all, and you guys in Pakistan can keep us updated to, @RedwoodOriginal is in the middle of the firing line especially. I have worried fam in Pindi, praying for all the civilians.
 
shaz619 said:
They took a few steps back, slowed it down to build one hell of a narrative for arguably the greatest ME of all time, this was it guys, the peak of wrestling bah gawd almighty, I wish we could go back in time to appreciate what it was more. From the late 90’s onwards I did feel we were in the middle of something special; Rock was just too big for wrestling and Austin was always battling his injuries / addiction in the background. I don’t know if Austin’s podcast is still live, he and Jericho were like the first high profile figures in wrestling to start shooting on the mic I think, but on it, Austin said that after retirement he would drive for 100’s of miles to try and shake the adrenaline of being a former pro off and try and adjust to normal life; can’t imagine what it must have been like because Austin consistently received some crazy pops, even after his turn, he is the one guy imo who could have remained a face for a very long time without the fans going sour, did you listen to the broken skull sessions ? they were amazing, up there with JC’s pod I’d say if not better, you can listen to it in peace with kids about as well unlike a certain someone…. 😭

What did you think of the turn in Texas at WM 17? Austin regrets it but I feel he is too harsh on himself, he at least got that long awaited pay-off to that on a personal level when he wrestled KO. Just imagine how much Austin rated KO to come out of retirement to wrestle him, no one else could achieve that over the years and it wasn’t just to hit a few stunners, Austin has such a high ring IQ, he knew what fans expect in this era and he wanted to go all out, it was one of my favourite matches of the year; have to give him credit when you look at how other high profile stars never quiet hit the same notes as Austin when they returned to the ring after a long time, everything had to be perfect for Austin and he put so much thought into it, it’s like Floyd Mayweather hand picking the correct style for him, weight, rehydration clause etc to maximise his chances despite being a lighter fighter etc It just reinforced how special Austin was.
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The only thing I would have changed about that feud would be giving The Rock the title for a bit longer. Kurt was the champ from No Mercy till No Way out. Dwayne won the title at No Way Out which was just 1 month from Mania 17. Would have been better if they had him win the title around Rumble.
 
shaz619 said:
Yes mate, ignore it, I think mods are controlling it a bit better now as well, but this thread is the best sanctuary for all, and you guys in Pakistan can keep us updated to, @RedwoodOriginal is in the middle of the firing line especially. I have worried fam in Pindi, praying for all the civilians.
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I have family in Islamabad. I am in US currently. So definitely been worried as heck. It's like I am afraid to sleep these days. The thought of waking up and hearing of further escalation and loss of life. Hope everyone remains safe.
Yes I hope those jobbers get an outright ban from PP. Hate it when people come here only to spew venom.
 
shaz619 said:
I can’t see the negatives outweighing the positives at all, this is a guy who took wrestling main stream, gave us the AE & RA eras, especially the latter for me, put on some of the greatest events of all time and created unforgettable characters. If there’s stuff to criticise then it’s mainly his booking choices after the steroid scandal while WCW were starting to get ahead, I know it was only 82 or 83 weeks but Eric is the only promoter who gave Vince a bloody nose, ultimately though Vince found a way to adapt, then you can criticise for the policy’s and this is all promoters, which unfortunately played a small part in what Benoit would do which lead to a dead product; but Vince revived it by giving Punk a shot at the big leagues, and H attempted to sabotage that, be glad Punk had an historic run because people still recall that, if it was indeed up to H he’d have been jobbed into space, you see how he dealt with him at the height of the summer of Punk, so Punk was booked as well as he possibly could have been with H continuously trying to meddle in booking affairs, though the lead up to WM 29 was a very low point for my own viewership. I agree that Vince needs to take some responsibility for the reign of terror, but when you look at the history of wrestling and family nepotism; I’ve never seen anyone use their influence so negatively like H to the detriment of the business, this is a guy who sold the soul of professional wrestling to the devil.

Punk himself will admit that WM 28/29 were his moments, he didn’t begrudge Bryan getting the main event because WM 30 was his time, and they wanted to throw him another bone like they did the year before but Punk did not see H on the same level of a Taker and rightly so. Any other year, you could have made something of a feud between Punk & H providing the latter was going to put him over, but not main eventing for three straight manias had to hurt, and even more when you get asked to work with a guy who played a big hand in making sure Punk did not get the main event spotlight. There are ways in which I think Punk could still have been in the WM 30 main event and I have an interesting idea on that but that was the year H needed someone to work with to and there was no chance in hell anything else was going to happen.

I see most will see R-Truth as a comedy guy but to me he was still Ron Killings the first African American to win the NWA worlds championship, see it more in the vein of say a Polkadot Dusty Rhodes challenging for the world championship. If there’s an R-Truth criticism it could be they didn’t explore his NWA wildside character a but more, other then that he was treated well, and so was Kofi, I genuinely thought he would drop the belt in the show I attended after Mani in Brooklyn, or within a few weeks, he had a solid run; say what you want but Vince is well ahead of most when it comes to knowing how a top level star needs to be booked and Brock crushing Kofi was the right decision, much like how I would expect Gunther to treat Pat, this is how you elevate a top level star and you can use them down the line to create more main eventers, what would be achieved if Kofi went 50/50 with Brock, we got a headline, Brock looked like the beast he should and Kofi can come back again, and he clearly did until H stole his New Day Ticket money that racist piece of crap. We got Mark Henry as champ, King Booker, Lashley et al Vince was pro diversity long before it became a thing in the work place.

Oh and he made Jinder champion! who gives chances like this! the first south asian champion, honestly, you can question how he randomly got the shot (mainly so he could put 4/10 over in India), but Jinder was in shape, a solid gimmick and he had a decent run, in-fact his entire reign was more memorable then any of H’s title reigns tbh and he had some great matches on PPV with the likes Randy and AJ, it lead to a special title change in the UK, I will forever regret not being able to make that show due to a couple of people letting me down, the roster backstage was full of praise for Jinder to in how he carried himself.

I think Vince can easily be criticised but the highs and lows should be rated overall proportional to how long he was a promoter and he was on top for a very long time, he has a long list of poor decisions but a lot more good ones, otherwise the business doesn’t survive either or get to a point where it built a resilient structure. And he had a knack for doing something mind boggling, but on the flip side he had great instincts, created great characters and moments which made you suspend your disbelief and that’s missing, the big events are no longer a spectacle and creatively, WWE is interesting due to its big names and their influence, H has been a very mediocre and predictable booker beyond that, he criticises his fans and under this new regime the normal people who support the business are not treated well, Vince never put prices up like this and heck he always kept the Network at 9.99 in the UK! I am missing the Network already.

However, I accept that fans became jaded at times with his creative and wanted something different (AEW) or (H), it’s just that both have not done that great either after the honeymoon period, I expected that, and I think people genuinely wanted a lot more and they need to keep that in mind and attack H especially a lot more.
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I guess we can agree to disagree on alot of this. Personally, I hold Vince and his booking most responsible for running me away as a fan in 2013. Particularly, I never liked his habit of how he would give guys like Kofi (who weren't main-eventers) a proper push and then when the time came to bring Brock or someone else over, he would just squash them like bugs. Rey Mysterio World title run in 2006 is another very good example. And eventhough these guys would get the belt, as a fan it just felt to me like they were always a level below the top guys. Which should not be the case when you push someone. But yes, Vince definitely was not a racist. That's one positive thing I can say about him. Always pushed black talent when they deserved a push unlike Mr. "I don't see color". But I wouldn't compare Gunther/Pat to Brock/Kofi because Pat is not a full-time wrestler while Kofi had been there 10 years or so at that point.

I didn't mind Jinder as champion at all. Infact I think that once he became champion he was kinda entertaining playing the age-old foreign heel gimmick. I enjoyed the feud with Orton too (minus the Punjab Prison match lol). But the way they got there made absolutely zero sense. It's like if Barry Horowitz went from jobbing on Superstars one week to beating Jake Roberts the next.

I'll agree with you there. Infact I think its probably a bit unfair to Vince to bury him completely. He did do alot of great things that I am probably looking past because of recency bias. And I definitely agree that people should be as critical of Triple H as they were of Vince. Infact more because this idiot actually seems to look at social media whereas Vince wasn't really aware of that side of the fans after a certain point. Certainly not social media.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I have family in Islamabad. I am in US currently. So definitely been worried as heck. It's like I am afraid to sleep these days. The thought of waking up and hearing of further escalation and loss of life. Hope everyone remains safe.
Yes I hope those jobbers get an outright ban from PP. Hate it when people come here only to spew venom.
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shaz619 said:
Yes mate, ignore it, I think mods are controlling it a bit better now as well, but this thread is the best sanctuary for all, and you guys in Pakistan can keep us updated to, @RedwoodOriginal is in the middle of the firing line especially. I have worried fam in Pindi, praying for all the civilians.
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Thankfully ceasefire has been reached so hopefully things will cool down now.

Coming back to wrestling, I'm looking forward to Backlash tomorrow lads. I was quite disappointed by Mania so am hoping for them to deliver on the traditional follow-up PLE. There have been some great Backlash PPVs over the years even after disappointing Manias. What I don't get is when will they stop fleecing the fans by delivering these 5 match PLE cards? I think you can easily put 7 matches in there and make these PLEs mean a little bit more. Nobody is asking you to go nuts and put 10-11 matches like AEW. But considering how much they have jacked up the ticket prices don't fans feel like they are being ripped off when they put on these types of small shows?
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Now that Aleister Black is back in WWE, I think a Punk-Black feud would be something. Their wrestling styles would mesh together extremely well. Their matches would be something to watch. Do you guys see some eerie similarity between the two as well? I can't really put my finger on it. @shaz619 @RedwoodOriginal
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I'd pay to see that. I've always been a fan of Aleister Black. And I get where you are coming from. Both like to do those roundhouse kicks, and I think both have a bit of MMA influence in their work. Black specifically has that Muay Thai influence, while Punk relies more on an old school style with some modern flourishes. But all in all, I reckon it would be an interesting contrast.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Thankfully ceasefire has been reached so hopefully things will cool down now.

Coming back to wrestling, I'm looking forward to Backlash tomorrow lads. I was quite disappointed by Mania so am hoping for them to deliver on the traditional follow-up PLE. There have been some great Backlash PPVs over the years even after disappointing Manias. What I don't get is when will they stop fleecing the fans by delivering these 5 match PLE cards? I think you can easily put 7 matches in there and make these PLEs mean a little bit more. Nobody is asking you to go nuts and put 10-11 matches like AEW. But considering how much they have jacked up the ticket prices don't fans feel like they are being ripped off when they put on these types of small shows?
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Trips is still running on the NXT Takeover formula. What he doesn't realize is, when you have more than 20k people in the building, they don't have the attention span of hardcore fans.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I guess we can agree to disagree on alot of this. Personally, I hold Vince and his booking most responsible for running me away as a fan in 2013. Particularly, I never liked his habit of how he would give guys like Kofi (who weren't main-eventers) a proper push and then when the time came to bring Brock or someone else over, he would just squash them like bugs. Rey Mysterio World title run in 2006 is another very good example. And eventhough these guys would get the belt, as a fan it just felt to me like they were always a level below the top guys. Which should not be the case when you push someone. But yes, Vince definitely was not a racist. That's one positive thing I can say about him. Always pushed black talent when they deserved a push unlike Mr. "I don't see color". But I wouldn't compare Gunther/Pat to Brock/Kofi because Pat is not a full-time wrestler while Kofi had been there 10 years or so at that point.

I didn't mind Jinder as champion at all. Infact I think that once he became champion he was kinda entertaining playing the age-old foreign heel gimmick. I enjoyed the feud with Orton too (minus the Punjab Prison match lol). But the way they got there made absolutely zero sense. It's like if Barry Horowitz went from jobbing on Superstars one week to beating Jake Roberts the next.

I'll agree with you there. Infact I think its probably a bit unfair to Vince to bury him completely. He did do alot of great things that I am probably looking past because of recency bias. And I definitely agree that people should be as critical of Triple H as they were of Vince. Infact more because this idiot actually seems to look at social media whereas Vince wasn't really aware of that side of the fans after a certain point. Certainly not social media.
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I hated Jinder's run as champ. Nakamura and Randy were made to look so weak. The matches were awful. The only good match to come out his whole run was when he lost the title to AJ. AJ managed to coax out a great match from Jinder.
 
shaz619 said:
Beautiful post bro, you should make a YT video on the rise & fall of TNA, and delegate some tasks to me, something I could work on without bringing H into the topic :yk3 There are a small number of people who will appreciate their viewership on SpikeTV, part of it was due to how WWE were doing in comparison, but if you judge the performance as an individual venture on national TV, the viewership was outstanding really, many AEW neckbeards can’t digest that TNA IMPACT! was a vastly superior show compared to Dynamite, my biggest issue with TNA then that PPV’s were not as polished as they could have been and they spent next to nothing in hyping the events, the advertising was terrible and the marketing department was non-existent, this was before sh!t stain and cru showed up.

Their TV was nice and tight, but the moment PE owned the company it was the beginning of the end, there were complexities behind the 30% which the Jaretts owned to and Jerry couldn’t get invested without receiving the controlling interest from his son; I am keen to understand what happened between them because Jerry wasn’t really involved with TNA after Panda came in, I suspect complexities in the family affairs in the background.

People called Jerry a genius booker but Jerry said that was only the case because he was smart enough to hire people more intelligent then him, something the likes of To y & Dixie could have really benefited from.

If HealthSouth didn’t get done for their dodgy dealings, TNA could have thrived. I think that in post Dixie era, not even Heyman could have saved them; very rarely do you hit the sweet spot in life right, TNA had all the personnel but terrible leadership, AEW have the investment but no leadership. More than having a big pot of gold, it just shows what’s important in the success of a promotional wrestling venture.
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Thanks bro. Not a bad idea. If it happens though I reckon TNA should pay us because you know we will be driving some major subscriptions to TNA's streaming platform. :kp Though knowing Anthem maybe that's too much to ask from those cheap b@strds. You hit the nail on the head there. It's amazing how little they invested in marketing, advertising, hyping up events. They had Don West doing freaking infomercials on local TV selling TNA Shop merch lmao .:wahab2 The PPVs too just felt any other episode of Impact. One thing I will give credit to Bischoff for is that when he came on atleast he made an effort to book bigger arenas. And for certain shows it did make an impact (no pun intended). I don't know how much of a fan you were of their Aces & Eights storyline aka motorcycle gang nWo. But when they did that big reveal at their Lockdown PPV with Bully Ray at the Alamodome, it really felt like a big deal. Eventhough the stadium was like 20% full, they did a great job of shooting it like it was mostly full.

Not sure if I know the complete picture there either. Hopefully one day someone writes a book on TNA and does some proper research to ascertain exactly how it all went down.

You're right there. The damage that had been done to that company by the time that Dixie left was irreparable. The audience had completely dwindled away, the credibility was gone, and it had become too minor league. Basically became akin to a small 'stepping-stone' territory where guys came in to work and get noticed before leaving for greener pastures. Bobby Lashley and Drew McIntyre are two good examples.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
I hated Jinder's run as champ. Nakamura and Randy were made to look so weak. The matches were awful. The only good match to come out his whole run was when he lost the title to AJ. AJ managed to coax out a great match from Jinder.
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Really? I actually quite enjoyed the match he had with Randy Orton at Backlash. I thought he held his own in a way that I didn't expect him too. Didn't like the Nakamura match. But the AJ match was good too. While I agree with you that he wasn't great, I do think Jinder was pretty decent and gets a bit too much hate from fans for reasons that he shouldn't be blamed for. His best match though was that Four Way at WrestleMania for the US Championship. I remember that match being fairly good.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Trips is still running on the NXT Takeover formula. What he doesn't realize is, when you have more than 20k people in the building, they don't have the attention span of hardcore fans.
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He and they (TKO) are completely fleecing the fans. Do you know that the most expensive ticket for their Big 4 PPVs now costs $48k? Like can you imagine paying that kind of money for any event even if you were filthy rich? because I can't. They are making some of the highest profits they have ever made and drawing the biggest gates they have ever drawn. When you are asking for that kind of money from fans the least you can do is deliver a proper PPV card.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
He and they (TKO) are completely fleecing the fans. Do you know that the most expensive ticket for their Big 4 PPVs now costs $48k? Like can you imagine paying that kind of money for any event even if you were filthy rich? because I can't. They are making some of the highest profits they have ever made and drawing the biggest gates they have ever drawn. When you are asking for that kind of money from fans the least you can do is deliver a proper PPV card.
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They are being really sneaky with it by going to towns they haven’t been to for a while or come there a few times a year, in my area, they’ve not done a live RAW or SD in like 10+ years, I can’t fathom how much they will charge. But for how long can they sustain this though? I don’t really watch the Stevie Richards show and think the British host is a bit of a dork, but I saw a clip and he said that indie companies should use it as an opportunity to sell fans the best alternate family show/package possible and give them a season pass or whatever. I think TNA are best placed to compete there, and they run a very tight ship now, however, WWE were smart enough to tap into that with the agreement they have. AEW unfortunately are not positioned with their product to capitalise on this opportunity, even though their pricing in the past seemed to be fair, although am not sure about now, and they struggle to sell tickets in general allegedly.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Really? I actually quite enjoyed the match he had with Randy Orton at Backlash. I thought he held his own in a way that I didn't expect him too. Didn't like the Nakamura match. But the AJ match was good too. While I agree with you that he wasn't great, I do think Jinder was pretty decent and gets a bit too much hate from fans for reasons that he shouldn't be blamed for. His best match though was that Four Way at WrestleMania for the US Championship. I remember that match being fairly good.
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He’s always such a stand up guy, pretty good with Pakistani folk as well, speaks so well and has an amazing attitude. I respect him for reinventing himself and while he wont be every one’s cup of tea and we’ve seen the best of his abilities, I think there’s a place for him in any major US wrestling company. Humble bloke, he would openly accept your perspective to on how he got the shot, at least he carried the belt respectably and you know, in the end it’s all about getting heat on the baby face, and no one can disagree that match in Manchester when he did the job for AJ was a special moment and possibly the best match of his career? That pop was insane, AJ to Brits is what Bret was to Germans, we had access to the NWA Wildside PPV’s from the now defunct Wrestling Channel on Sky which was free to air, we followed his career from the start to say the least and he was right up there with the very best even in 2005, I think the GOAT for me was HBK and it just amazed me to see what AJ was doing and how he could challenge that position, I know they teased it in 2018, but can you imagine what a match between Shawn & AJ would look like in 2005 bah gawd, that would be like the IWC’s wet dream.
 
shaz619 said:
They are being really sneaky with it by going to towns they haven’t been to for a while or come there a few times a year, in my area, they’ve not done a live RAW or SD in like 10+ years, I can’t fathom how much they will charge. But for how long can they sustain this though? I don’t really watch the Stevie Richards show and think the British host is a bit of a dork, but I saw a clip and he said that indie companies should use it as an opportunity to sell fans the best alternate family show/package possible and give them a season pass or whatever. I think TNA are best placed to compete there, and they run a very tight ship now, however, WWE were smart enough to tap into that with the agreement they have. AEW unfortunately are not positioned with their product to capitalise on this opportunity, even though their pricing in the past seemed to be fair, although am not sure about now, and they struggle to sell tickets in general allegedly.
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Their overseas shows are even more expensive. So yeah, I can't imagine the percentage increase that will be there the next time they come to your area.

I feel like the major indie territories these days are either too regional (DEFY) or too niche (Garbage Championship Wrestling), so not sure how much they can capitalize. AEW made a smarter decision in recent times of running smaller buildings. So on TV the presentation looks pretty good and different from WWE. But their business is not growing. They mostly have the same loyal core base that will stay there no matter what. And it's not a big enough core base. I reckon their best bet to stay relevant is probably running more of these overseas shows every now and then. They are doings shows in Mexico, Scotland, Wales and England in the next few months. And on PPVs, they generally tend to draw good crowds. For AEW, the good thing is that because its not really a business, and more of a vanity project, it isn't bound by traditional pro-wrestling metrics like ratings and arena gates.
 
shaz619 said:
He’s always such a stand up guy, pretty good with Pakistani folk as well, speaks so well and has an amazing attitude. I respect him for reinventing himself and while he wont be every one’s cup of tea and we’ve seen the best of his abilities, I think there’s a place for him in any major US wrestling company. Humble bloke, he would openly accept your perspective to on how he got the shot, at least he carried the belt respectably and you know, in the end it’s all about getting heat on the baby face, and no one can disagree that match in Manchester when he did the job for AJ was a special moment and possibly the best match of his career? That pop was insane, AJ to Brits is what Bret was to Germans, we had access to the NWA Wildside PPV’s from the now defunct Wrestling Channel on Sky which was free to air, we followed his career from the start to say the least and he was right up there with the very best even in 2005, I think the GOAT for me was HBK and it just amazed me to see what AJ was doing and how he could challenge that position, I know they teased it in 2018, but can you imagine what a match between Shawn & AJ would look like in 2005 bah gawd, that would be like the IWC’s wet dream.
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I have seen him speak and I agree. Seems like a really nice guy. And he had a good run. He was World Champion and that's a pretty big achievement to hang your hat on, regardless of where his career goes. Yeah that probably was his best match.

That;s one of the biggest dream matches we didn't get to see sadly. Undertaker v AJ in the ring would have been good too.
 
shaz619 said:
They took a few steps back, slowed it down to build one hell of a narrative for arguably the greatest ME of all time, this was it guys, the peak of wrestling bah gawd almighty, I wish we could go back in time to appreciate what it was more. From the late 90’s onwards I did feel we were in the middle of something special; Rock was just too big for wrestling and Austin was always battling his injuries / addiction in the background. I don’t know if Austin’s podcast is still live, he and Jericho were like the first high profile figures in wrestling to start shooting on the mic I think, but on it, Austin said that after retirement he would drive for 100’s of miles to try and shake the adrenaline of being a former pro off and try and adjust to normal life; can’t imagine what it must have been like because Austin consistently received some crazy pops, even after his turn, he is the one guy imo who could have remained a face for a very long time without the fans going sour, did you listen to the broken skull sessions ? they were amazing, up there with JC’s pod I’d say if not better, you can listen to it in peace with kids about as well unlike a certain someone…. 😭

What did you think of the turn in Texas at WM 17? Austin regrets it but I feel he is too harsh on himself, he at least got that long awaited pay-off to that on a personal level when he wrestled KO. Just imagine how much Austin rated KO to come out of retirement to wrestle him, no one else could achieve that over the years and it wasn’t just to hit a few stunners, Austin has such a high ring IQ, he knew what fans expect in this era and he wanted to go all out, it was one of my favourite matches of the year; have to give him credit when you look at how other high profile stars never quiet hit the same notes as Austin when they returned to the ring after a long time, everything had to be perfect for Austin and he put so much thought into it, it’s like Floyd Mayweather hand picking the correct style for him, weight, rehydration clause etc to maximise his chances despite being a lighter fighter etc It just reinforced how special Austin was.
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WM 17 was the peak of WWE. Creatively, commercially, competition-wise they were just the best. And this was the main-event of the show. The biggest match between two of the biggest stars of that era. Everything from the music, to the voice-over to the editing is just perfect in this video-package. You wanna see these two fight.

I've seen all the eps. of the Broken Skull Sessions he did with WWE Network. His radio podcast I have listened alot lesser of...I don't think its around anymore. I really like him as a podcast host. He's really good at it.

Ah, that's a divisive topic. I personally didn't like it because I don't think they had a clear plan in mind about where to go, but I don't blame him for wanting to try something different. I didn't think it was necessary but hey, if arguably the biggest star in the history of wrestling thinks he wants to go heel, I feel like he has earned the right to do so.

It was definitely a fantastic match and very smartly worked. Do you think we will see him in the ring again? Part of me feels that he doesn't want him giving a stunner to 76 year old Vince to be the last thing people remember him for. Nor that ATV accident for that matter lmao. :ROFLMAO:
 
Strong opener. Started off really hot but began stretching the bounds of logic towards the end when Priest and McIntyre started brawling into the crowd and Fatu and L.A were seemingly laying on for what felt like eternity. The debut of Jeff Cobb was a great surprise. He's a fantastic signing for them and might add an interesting layer to this Bloodline spin-off storyline. Cobb interfering gives L.A a nice out too while keeping the belt on FAtu.

Side -note, good to see another Lucha Underground star realizing his true potential
 
That was way better than the Wrestlemania world title match.

Hope these two run it back still so much to get out of this even right now and then into the CM Punk Cena feud.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Really? I actually quite enjoyed the match he had with Randy Orton at Backlash. I thought he held his own in a way that I didn't expect him too. Didn't like the Nakamura match. But the AJ match was good too. While I agree with you that he wasn't great, I do think Jinder was pretty decent and gets a bit too much hate from fans for reasons that he shouldn't be blamed for. His best match though was that Four Way at WrestleMania for the US Championship. I remember that match being fairly good.
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Nothing against the guy but he's not a good pro wrestler. Promo wise he was good, but in terms of in ring skills, he was meh. But it wasn't his fault that he was elevated to the maineventer from being a jobber in 2 weeks.
 
shaz619 said:
He’s always such a stand up guy, pretty good with Pakistani folk as well, speaks so well and has an amazing attitude. I respect him for reinventing himself and while he wont be every one’s cup of tea and we’ve seen the best of his abilities, I think there’s a place for him in any major US wrestling company. Humble bloke, he would openly accept your perspective to on how he got the shot, at least he carried the belt respectably and you know, in the end it’s all about getting heat on the baby face, and no one can disagree that match in Manchester when he did the job for AJ was a special moment and possibly the best match of his career? That pop was insane, AJ to Brits is what Bret was to Germans, we had access to the NWA Wildside PPV’s from the now defunct Wrestling Channel on Sky which was free to air, we followed his career from the start to say the least and he was right up there with the very best even in 2005, I think the GOAT for me was HBK and it just amazed me to see what AJ was doing and how he could challenge that position, I know they teased it in 2018, but can you imagine what a match between Shawn & AJ would look like in 2005 bah gawd, that would be like the IWC’s wet dream.
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Yes nothing against the guy himself. He did what he was told to the best of his ability. He seems like a great and humble guy. But you can argue he never belonged at the main event level. He could have been a good mid carder though. It's said that Brock had told Vince to take the belt off Jinder as he didn't want to face him. And as soon as he lost the title, he was relegated to the jobber status again. He even lost the the US title 1 week after winning at Mania. And his feud with Roman where Roman beat him with a single superman punch instead of using his finisher spoke of how they were never going to push him again.
and yes the connection AJ has with the European and UK audience is something else. He is treated like Austin there.
 
This was basically the Cena vs Randy version of Rock vs Austin WM 19… final match of the rivalry, unless there’s another 😔
 
I was rather pleasantly surprised by the Gunther-McAfee match. The crowd was super into Pat cheering for his every comeback. And Pat unlike Logan knew how to sell the match with a much more credible opponent. Sold exceptionally for Gunther, didn't do anything that would make Gunther look weak. It was a pretty good match. Pat even held back on a lot of his signature moves here.
 
Cena Randy match was soooo good. Did justice to the two great names involved in it. Randy was the MVP of the match. Can see him turning heel soon now.
 
What was the weird post match Cena segment with him looking conflicted. I hope his face turn doesn't happen till the final month or two of his career.
 
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