The Wrestling Discussion Thread

[shaz619]

I'm sure he will be back in Jan after his next movie tanks

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958551271872348621

Don’t hurt my hopes for the smashing machine bro , I love a good combat movie, if he messes this up, I don’t know what to say

 

[shaz619]

I never thought I'd see RVD become a shadow of himself in the ring. Man age catches up with everyone.
He is one of a kind. No one in the history has possessed the wrestling style like him.

If you look at RVD even now in isolation, he fits in with the rest, our standards are that low, however, he’s clearly not going to be 2002 RVD….

 

[shaz619]

When Dwayne got challenged by being stale, he created one of the best characters of recent time in pro wrestling, the final boss and ended up giving us the best Mania build up in over a decade. When Noseley got challenged, he ended up having Travis Scott costing Cody the title in main event of Mania. Let that sink in. Trips doesn't even come close to The Rock in terms of wrestling creativity. If Austin and Dwayne hadn't left WWE in 2004, Noseley wouldn't have risen to the reign of terror.

This is what I mean, I mean he is defo a weirdo and @RedwoodOriginal should rightfully diss him like Brian Last, but there are levels to this and H is not fit to carry Dwayne’s ruck sack so he should have been more respectful and shown better leadership to then get more out of him….

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don’t hurt my hopes for the smashing machine bro , I love a good combat movie, if he messes this up, I don’t know what to say

Bro, I'm just telling you what I saw in the trailer. It looked like a weird movie. I hope I am wrong because I am a fan of Benny Safdie. I love Good Time and Uncut Gems is just a masterpiece.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

If you look at RVD even now in isolation, he fits in with the rest, our standards are that low, however, he’s clearly not going to be 2002 RVD….

Tbh I saw RVD in AEW a couple of years ago and he looked pretty good for his age. He can definitely still have proper matches where he can do some of his signature stuff, if not all of it. I think when it comes to fitness and athleticism, RVD may be one of the best in the recent history of the business. Just his leg strength alone was quite remarkable. I think only Orton can match up to those quads

 

[shaz619]

Tbh I saw RVD in AEW a couple of years ago and he looked pretty good for his age. He can definitely still have proper matches where he can do some of his signature stuff, if not all of it. I think when it comes to fitness and athleticism, RVD may be one of the best in the recent history of the business. Just his leg strength alone was quite remarkable. I think only Orton can match up to those quads

This is what I mean he can still go in todays world and he hasn’t lost his agility completely, it’s fair to say we both hate the style of work in this era and an innovator like RVD or a Punk or Gunther remind us bygone times. I am glad RVD flipped H though, although I am sure Cena/RVD would have killed it again if the rumours are true……

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Honestly it comes down to preference because Punk understands his audience so well and can manipulate the creative as needed to achieve the best results, and his WWE run arguably has been equally special, also when you consider the constraints & dealing with Triple Doofus, we also need to appreciate how disciplined Punk has been and he has literally tried to accommodate the demands of the system as much as possible, he has kept his worst instincts & demons at bay and the structure has helped there and I imagine a boat load of cash to.

Punk is a top 5 all timer, just look at how mediocre the build was for his match with Gunther, and this match / moment changed everything:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1951907256317936025

Despite the horrible programming lately, CM Punk is driving the company literally, whether at live events or at TV, there are complaints about how limited screen time he’s getting and the fans appreciate his work a great deal, I mean it’s what I mainly look forward to every week and skip 90% off everything else.

With that being said, for me personally, and I said this during the AEW stint & before his WWE run began, as an all-round performer, he was producing the best performances & storylines since Shawn Michaels in the early 2000’s. Punk had the freedom to show his range & my god the promo’s & matches were some of the best we have ever seen, it’s just a shame that we never got to explore a full program beyond the one with MJF & WWE have kind of rectified that with Drew especially & maybe Seth although I am sick of Darth Burius v2, but the individual promo’s, matches & characterisation were phenomenal really, if he hung around there a tad longer, he probably could have been the biggest heel in wrestling.

But Punk has such a high ring IQ that he has adjusted for the global wrestling fanbase, he looks fantastic, he has accounted for his brutal schedule by working a lot smarter & he prioritises the ring psychology as much as he possibly can & gets the most out of his opponents evidently before they get lost in the shuffle again because of how clueless H is. The 2000’s indie mark in me saw the best template of how that wrestling philosophy could work with some tweaks & draw a bit of cash before Coke Khan took that away from me, now this run is still special and it represents everything a pro-wrestler should be, ignoring how Punk should be booked even stronger, but we’ve seen the end of that 2000’s indie / RA wrestling style, we may see it every now & then like we did with Gunther, but am afraid AEW can’t remotely make up for the loss off Punk.

MJF v Punk for the World title would have been phenomenal. Which is what they seemed to be hinting at before Brawl Out happened. AEW still has talents like MJF, Swerve, Christian, Darby Allin---Kyle Fletcher and Konosuke Takeshita are amazing prospects for the future---and a few others who can deliver if they are in the right program with the right person. But these days even that has become really rare. One aspect about the decline of AEW has been how homogenized the style of wrestling has become which is basically fast-paced, video-game wrestling where everyone does crazy moves and kicks out of everything. Which is disappointing because at one point, AEW really was showcasing a lot of different styles of wrestling on the same show. And as you pointed out, it's not like WWE is any good either unless you have someone like Gunther, Orton or Punk in the ring. Drew is pretty good too but I feel he has to be in the ring with the right opponent. He's not at the level of a Gunther where he can drag anyone to a decent and logical match. Speaking of whom, there are not enough adjectives to sum up how great Gunther is. Someone like him only comes around once in a generation. Punk is great but obviously is at the tail-end of his pro-wrestling career. If nothing else, I am excited to see Gunther and how his career pans out. I think there are some big-money future programs out there between him and guys like Brock, Roman, Jacob Fatu, Bron Breakker, Dragunov, KO. Rey (?). Him vs. the likes of Punk, Cody, McIntyre, Sami Zayn are definitely worth revisiting. Perhaps one day maybe even Gunther v Oba Femi. I mean the options are just endless with this guy. I also sincerely hope that we get to see Gunther v AJ before AJ retires because that will be incredible if both are given the time to do their thing.

As for AEW, no they really can't. The firing of Punk was the turning point and no matter what they tell themselves, things will never be the same again. What's even funnier to me though is that the people that Tony seemingly chose over Punk; guys like The Young Bucks, Jack Perry and their whole merry band of misfits are completely dead in the water. The Young Bucks have never meant less than they do now. They are completely irrelevant and even AEW fans just don't care about them or the grade school comedy skits they do. Their matches may have seemed unique back in 2018 but that kind of style that spits in the face of logic and common sense wears off very quickly. The only one of them who was of any use: Kenny Omega has destroyed his body to such an extent that he can't wrestle more than a match every few months. The empty-headed dumbfug cowboy still has some cache with this audience because he goes out and says stuff like he will "win the AEW Men's World Heavyweight title" lol. But this company is no longer in a place where it can grow or move forward. I'll keep watching because I've been watching for the past 5 years and despite all the disappointment they have put me through, I genuinely do want them to succeed. But I can't say its something I have particularly high hopes for.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This is what I mean he can still go in todays world and he hasn’t lost his agility completely, it’s fair to say we both hate the style of work in this era and an innovator like RVD or a Punk or Gunther remind us bygone times. I am glad RVD flipped H though, although I am sure Cena/RVD would have killed it again if the rumours are true……

I feel that if anyone else tried to do that style it would be embarrassing. But RVD was just that damn talented. I think he is definitely someone who could have even been a top babyface because I don't recall if there was ever a time when he wasn't massively over. When he came to WWE in 2002 from ECW, I feel he was at his absolute peak physically and popularity-wise. Which ofcourse meant that HHH had to bring out his golden shovel and dig another shallow grave. But a large part of the blame falls on him too for blowing his opportunity when he finally got it. I mean there really is no excuse for getting busted for weed by the cops when you;re the freaking World Champion...eventhough that was just about the most RVD thing he could have done lol.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This is what I mean he can still go in todays world and he hasn’t lost his agility completely, it’s fair to say we both hate the style of work in this era and an innovator like RVD or a Punk or Gunther remind us bygone times. I am glad RVD flipped H though, although I am sure Cena/RVD would have killed it again if the rumours are true……

Btw I think the post you shared was from a parody account

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I'd take KO as champ over Seth any day of the week.

KO wouldn't have been champion for more than a few weeks though. He would have likely had to relinquish the belt because he had his neck injury not long after Elimination Chamber. That would have put them in a really awkward position going into WrestleMania

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Noseley thinks this long running Seth Punk feud is this age's HBK-Trips feud but he couldn't be more wrong cause no one literally wants to see this feud continue now.

You know there was a time at the beginning of the year when there actually was some excitement around the potential of this feud. Now it just feels like a virus that just keeps mutating instead of ending, because of Pinocchio's booking masterclass

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Punk has actually looked a lot more fresh and jubilant in WWE than he did in AEW. Apart from that shoulder injury, he's been injury free as well.

I think it was torn triceps.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The Rock’s a weirdo under Hollywood but there is no comparison between him and H who is completely responsible for his failed leadership, this guy tried to throw Cena under the bus, I mean does he really think he can rub his big nose in the faces of these much bigger stars and get away with it? The Rock became arguably the biggest star in wrestling history, he became a huge name in Hollywood and used that to take our sports popularity to new heights, he is a third generation talent, females on his side of the family have literally run entire wrestling territories ignoring what his dad and others achieved. Wrestling’s in his blood and it’s a cake walk for him which is why it’s always there no matter what happens in Hollywood, fans didn’t want the Hollywood face Rock but he created the Final Boss & has to this day, done a much better job building heat on Cody then anyone else, everything he has done on TV when in character has been phenomenal, we even got the Hollywood Heel Rock theme back.

If we never got the pay-off to x or there were issues with his appearances, I blame it all on H, if you rub any big star the wrong way, that’s not good leadership is it, after-all, H is clueless anyway and can’t be trusted creatively so I find it hard to feel any sympathy for him and ultimately he ruined the Wrestlemania main-event, something he has enjoyed doing in each decade of the 21st century.

When Dwayne got challenged by being stale, he created one of the best characters of recent time in pro wrestling, the final boss and ended up giving us the best Mania build up in over a decade. When Noseley got challenged, he ended up having Travis Scott costing Cody the title in main event of Mania. Let that sink in. Trips doesn't even come close to The Rock in terms of wrestling creativity. If Austin and Dwayne hadn't left WWE in 2004, Noseley wouldn't have risen to the reign of terror.

For me, the fact that The Rock is lightyears ahead of Triple H interms of talent is what makes this even more infuriating. If he wanted to, and if he decided to put his ego aside, Rock really could help elevate the product. There are not many wrestlers in the history of the business who match up to his level of charisma and star power. The Final Boss character and the whole build to WrestleMania 40 is a perfect example of him using his cache to elevate the product. But instead he only chooses to only do stuff for self-serving reasons. Had it not been for the fans rabidly turning on him when he chose to just come in last year, insert him into that situation and set up a match with Roman Reigns, we may never even have gotten The Final Boss. You look at The Rock now and The Rock from even 2003 or 2004, when he entered Hollywood, and he is simply not the same person. Everything he does in public or private has to be filmed by a camera crew. As much as I may hate Triple H, the reality is that he simply has zero talent. So I can only hate him so much. Because as someone very smart once said the guy is like a 4/10.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

@shaz619 @BunnyRabbit @Suleiman @The_KING

The promo sequel to the Austin v Rock WrestleMania 17 'My Way' promo. Also by Limp Bizkit. I doubt any single band cashed in from WWE as much as them back in the day lol.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958936830432485602

In many ways, this match marked the end of an era. One hand you feel nostalgic seeing this, on the other hand you know wrestling will never live up to the highs of 2000-03.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

GOLD thread:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958859972168523923

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

@BunnyRabbit You sure you wanna see this guy in WWE?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958904060637049036

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Honestly it comes down to preference because Punk understands his audience so well and can manipulate the creative as needed to achieve the best results, and his WWE run arguably has been equally special, also when you consider the constraints & dealing with Triple Doofus, we also need to appreciate how disciplined Punk has been and he has literally tried to accommodate the demands of the system as much as possible, he has kept his worst instincts & demons at bay and the structure has helped there and I imagine a boat load of cash to.

Punk is a top 5 all timer, just look at how mediocre the build was for his match with Gunther, and this match / moment changed everything:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1951907256317936025

Despite the horrible programming lately, CM Punk is driving the company literally, whether at live events or at TV, there are complaints about how limited screen time he’s getting and the fans appreciate his work a great deal, I mean it’s what I mainly look forward to every week and skip 90% off everything else.

With that being said, for me personally, and I said this during the AEW stint & before his WWE run began, as an all-round performer, he was producing the best performances & storylines since Shawn Michaels in the early 2000’s. Punk had the freedom to show his range & my god the promo’s & matches were some of the best we have ever seen, it’s just a shame that we never got to explore a full program beyond the one with MJF & WWE have kind of rectified that with Drew especially & maybe Seth although I am sick of Darth Burius v2, but the individual promo’s, matches & characterisation were phenomenal really, if he hung around there a tad longer, he probably could have been the biggest heel in wrestling.

But Punk has such a high ring IQ that he has adjusted for the global wrestling fanbase, he looks fantastic, he has accounted for his brutal schedule by working a lot smarter & he prioritises the ring psychology as much as he possibly can & gets the most out of his opponents evidently before they get lost in the shuffle again because of how clueless H is. The 2000’s indie mark in me saw the best template of how that wrestling philosophy could work with some tweaks & draw a bit of cash before Coke Khan took that away from me, now this run is still special and it represents everything a pro-wrestler should be, ignoring how Punk should be booked even stronger, but we’ve seen the end of that 2000’s indie / RA wrestling style, we may see it every now & then like we did with Gunther, but am afraid AEW can’t remotely make up for the loss off Punk.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958865571908657230

 

[Suleiman]

@shaz619 @BunnyRabbit @Suleiman @The_KING

The promo sequel to the Austin v Rock WrestleMania 17 'My Way' promo. Also by Limp Bizkit. I doubt any single band cashed in from WWE as much as them back in the day lol.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958936830432485602

In many ways, this match marked the end of an era. One hand you feel nostalgic seeing this, on the other hand you know wrestling will never live up to the highs of 2000-03.

Links not opening for me but I think I already know what it is haha

Is their 3rd WM promo? That promo was almost if not just as good as the my way promo. Unfortunately YouTube keeps taking it down. 3rd time no longer about the belt but about feeling good enough and elite enough to still be considered legends realizing they have both reached their limit.

Edit: got it right

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Links not opening for me but I think I already know what it is haha

Is their 3rd WM promo? That promo was almost if not just as good as the my way promo. Unfortunately YouTube keeps taking it down. 3rd time no longer about the belt but about feeling good enough and elite enough to still be considered legends realizing they have both reached their limit.

Edit: got it right

WWE copyright hounds earning their paychecks I guess. I can't even recall how many times they have taken down that My Way promo lol.

Pretty good song too. Maybe its just because I associate this song with that era of wrestling but I sure do love it

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I didn't see him wrestle after his wwe run till I saw him in AEW. And he wasn't 2006 RVD at that point. But yes, he's obviously still pretty good. But the style he wrestles, you simply can't do that stuff when you're 52

Tbh I saw RVD in AEW a couple of years ago and he looked pretty good for his age. He can definitely still have proper matches where he can do some of his signature stuff, if not all of it. I think when it comes to fitness and athleticism, RVD may be one of the best in the recent history of the business. Just his leg strength alone was quite remarkable. I think only Orton can match up to those quads

 

[BunnyRabbit]

This is what I mean he can still go in todays world and he hasn’t lost his agility completely, it’s fair to say we both hate the style of work in this era and an innovator like RVD or a Punk or Gunther remind us bygone times. I am glad RVD flipped H though, although I am sure Cena/RVD would have killed it again if the rumours are true……

I hope RVD comes back for a match. I wanna see all of them legends back. Them over the 90% tripe of today's era.
It's so pathetic that during his heel run, Cena didn't brutalize Mysterio again. what a missed opportunity.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

KO wouldn't have been champion for more than a few weeks though. He would have likely had to relinquish the belt because he had his neck injury not long after Elimination Chamber. That would have put them in a really awkward position going into WrestleMania

But no one had seen KO getting injured in future.
The thing is you need to be imaginative and make bold decisions timely at the right time. Something Noseley is bereft of.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

For me, the fact that The Rock is lightyears ahead of Triple H interms of talent is what makes this even more infuriating. If he wanted to, and if he decided to put his ego aside, Rock really could help elevate the product. There are not many wrestlers in the history of the business who match up to his level of charisma and star power. The Final Boss character and the whole build to WrestleMania 40 is a perfect example of him using his cache to elevate the product. But instead he only chooses to only do stuff for self-serving reasons. Had it not been for the fans rabidly turning on him when he chose to just come in last year, insert him into that situation and set up a match with Roman Reigns, we may never even have gotten The Final Boss. You look at The Rock now and The Rock from even 2003 or 2004, when he entered Hollywood, and he is simply not the same person. Everything he does in public or private has to be filmed by a camera crew. As much as I may hate Triple H, the reality is that he simply has zero talent. So I can only hate him so much. Because as someone very smart once said the guy is like a 4/10.

Dwayne definitely doesn't like pro wrestling the way he used to. But the thing is he was built for this business rather than hollywood. And yes, he is another one who's become the polar opposite of what he used to be. These satanic leeches turn everyone into something they hate.
I think if Noseley wasn't the booker, Dwayne would have been more receptive to add to WWE considering he is a board member atm. But Noseley has this agenda of going 180 degrees to the idea of what someone else has pitched.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

@BunnyRabbit You sure you wanna see this guy in WWE?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958904060637049036

If he gets in some sort of shape then why not.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

@shaz619 @BunnyRabbit @Suleiman @The_KING

The promo sequel to the Austin v Rock WrestleMania 17 'My Way' promo. Also by Limp Bizkit. I doubt any single band cashed in from WWE as much as them back in the day lol.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958936830432485602

In many ways, this match marked the end of an era. One hand you feel nostalgic seeing this, on the other hand you know wrestling will never live up to the highs of 2000-03.

I think this match was the best of their Mania triology. It was a clean win for Dwayne. 17 was the more impactful mainevent, but the match was filled with Vince's shenanigans.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

But no one had seen KO getting injured in future.
The thing is you need to be imaginative and make bold decisions timely at the right time. Something Noseley is bereft of.

??

He was going to get injured though, an injury for which those matches with Cody likely played a big part because his neck was taking the brunt of alot of those bumps. Had they gone with KO it would have put them in an embarrassing position because they would have had to switch the belt again when he eventually did get injured. And that too months before WrestleMania.

Also, what was the long-term plan of putting the belt on KO? None of this was ever explained. Doing a shocking thing just for the sake of doing a shocking thing is stupid and serves no purpose. That's Vince Russo booking.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

If he gets in some sort of shape then why not.

Look at the state of him. He's been like this for atleast the last two years. At his age, how much better shape is he going to get in?

I guess the bigger question is, is he ready to stop pounding those bottles of Vodka he has clearly been hitting night and day?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

??

He was going to get injured though, an injury for which those matches with Cody likely played a big part because his neck was taking the brunt of alot of those bumps. Had they gone with KO it would have put them in an embarrassing position because they would have had to switch the belt again when he eventually did get injured. And that too months before WrestleMania.

Also, what was the long-term plan of putting the belt on KO? None of this was ever explained. Doing a shocking thing just for the sake of doing a shocking thing is stupid and serves no purpose. That's Vince Russo booking.

It would have still been a better decision than putting WHC title on Seth.
With KO, there was potential to take the story a lot of places, a title match with Sami where he could have actually won.
With Seth, it is just so much of a mechanical robotic booking that seems to be done by def rebel.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Look at the state of him. He's been like this for atleast the last two years. At his age, how much better shape is he going to get in?

I guess the bigger question is, is he ready to stop pounding those bottles of Vodka he has clearly been hitting night and day?

Don't care what he's done in AEW. For WWE fans, it's pretty much like he'd be returning after 7 years. But he probably just likes the easy money TK gives him at this point.
For an athlete, it takes 3-4 months to get back in shape if he's motivated enough.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think this match was the best of their Mania triology. It was a clean win for Dwayne. 17 was the more impactful mainevent, but the match was filled with Vince's shenanigans.

Personally, I found the WrestleMania 17 match to be far better. I don't include the post-match stuff because that happened after the match. But that said, I think this one was a really underrated and very good match. Austin putting Rock over clean felt like a thank you for all those years Rock made Austin look like a million bucks. These two always had great respect and camaraderie, and if I'm not wrong, it was Austin's idea to put Rock over clean, eventhough Austin was struggling significantly with injuries by this point with his full-time career essentially over, while Rock was out the door and on his way to Hollywood.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Don't care what he's done in AEW. For WWE fans, it's pretty much like he'd be returning after 7 years. But he probably just likes the easy money TK gives him at this point.
For an athlete, it takes 3-4 months to get back in shape if he's motivated enough.

Bro he's 54. How many elite athletes do you know that are 54 years old?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It would have still been a better decision than putting WHC title on Seth.
With KO, there was potential to take the story a lot of places, a title match with Sami where he could have actually won.
With Seth, it is just so much of a mechanical robotic booking that seems to be done by def rebel.

Don't see how the two are related. Seth won a different belt. KO would have been vying for the Undisputed WWE Championship. Also, how would KO have dropped the belt to Sami if he had a neck injury so serious that he couldn't wrestle at all? If KO's injury wasn't as serious as it has been reported to be, he would have wrestled the match against Orton at WrestleMania and then gone away.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Personally, I found the WrestleMania 17 match to be far better. I don't include the post-match stuff because that happened after the match. But that said, I think this one was a really underrated and very good match. Austin putting Rock over clean felt like a thank you for all those years Rock made Austin look like a million bucks. These two always had great respect and camaraderie, and if I'm not wrong, it was Austin's idea to put Rock over clean, eventhough Austin was struggling significantly with injuries by this point with his full-time career essentially over, while Rock was out the door and on his way to Hollywood.

If I remember correctly, Austin hit Dwayne with 5 or 6 chair shots in Mania 17 match to get the win. He had turn heel during the match. As good of an angle that was, I think their Mania 19 match was just a better wrestling match.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Bro he's 54. How many elite athletes do you know that are 54 years old?

For a nostalgia run, 2-3 matches would be fine for a 4 month run from Rumble till Mania. It's the promos and character work that Jericho has always endeared fans with. I won't mind him reprising the list or 2008 gimmick for a few months considering how bland and unenjoyable WWE is atm.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Don't see how the two are related. Seth won a different belt. KO would have been vying for the Undisputed WWE Championship. Also, how would KO have dropped the belt to Sami if he had a neck injury so serious that he couldn't wrestle at all? If KO's injury wasn't as serious as it has been reported to be, he would have wrestled the match against Orton at WrestleMania and then gone away.

Think we are talking about two different things. I am saying putting the title on KO before he got injured would have been a good idea. Like even till that Cody match, KO managed to wrestle out a last man standing. At that point in time, thinking about putting the title on KO would have made sense. It was after his match with Sami a month later when it became clear that he would out of action for long long time.
What I am basically trying to say is, it'd be a fresh idea seeing KO as the WWE champ and would open to much more future possibilities than putting the title on Seth and putting him in a faction with the Brons which is essentially a negative energy vortex.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

If I remember correctly, Austin hit Dwayne with 5 or 6 chair shots in Mania 17 match to get the win. He had turn heel during the match. As good of an angle that was, I think their Mania 19 match was just a better wrestling match.

To each their own I guess. But for me, the WrestleMania 17 match is the best match these two ever had. I enjoyed the WrestleMania 15 one too though I don't remember it that well now.

Interested to hear what's @shaz619 and @Suleiman's favorite Austin v Rock match is.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Think we are talking about two different things. I am saying putting the title on KO before he got injured would have been a good idea. Like even till that Cody match, KO managed to wrestle out a last man standing. At that point in time, thinking about putting the title on KO would have made sense. It was after his match with Sami a month later when it became clear that he would out of action for long long time.
What I am basically trying to say is, it'd be a fresh idea seeing KO as the WWE champ and would open to much more future possibilities than putting the title on Seth and putting him in a faction with the Brons which is essentially a negative energy vortex.

Well that's a completely different thing. Personally I wouldn't have minded them putting the belt on KO earlier. But I'm specifically talking about what they were planning to do at Elimination Chamber, and what Rock's little stooge Gewirtz said on WWE Unreal.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This storyline makes very little sense but I'll be happy as long as I get to see Edge & Christian v FTR at All Out in Toronto

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

For a nostalgia run, 2-3 matches would be fine for a 4 month run from Rumble till Mania. It's the promos and character work that Jericho has always endeared fans with. I won't mind him reprising the list or 2008 gimmick for a few months considering how bland and unenjoyable WWE is atm.

I don't know about that. That gimmick was fantastic. Him bringing it back now would just cheapen it because you know it wouldn't be as good. And I could say the same about Jericho tbh. But let's see what happens. He has definitely reached the end of the line in AEW creatively. The fans resent him at this point because they’ve realized that all he really does is attach himself to whichever young star is hot or rising in popularity, and somehow manages to make them mean even less.

I'm still leaning towards the idea that he is working the dirt sheets to get more money out of TK. Because I know how much he and Triple H hate each other, even if they may claim to be on good terms now. You also have to wonder how these rumors spread like wildfire? And the reason for that is Jericho too. Not only does he have friends in WWE, but Dirt Sheet Dave has also been on his speed dial since the 90s. Nick Khan and the WWE brass may want to sign him just so they can boast about stealing another top guy from AEW, but deep down Jericho knows that he will never have the same level of freedom in WWE that he does in AEW.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well that's a completely different thing. Personally I wouldn't have minded them putting the belt on KO earlier. But I'm specifically talking about what they were planning to do at Elimination Chamber, and what Rock's little stooge Gewirtz said on WWE Unreal.

At EC KO had the match with Sami. His feud with Cody was over on Rumble if i am correct

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't know about that. That gimmick was fantastic. Him bringing it back now would just cheapen it because you know it wouldn't be as good. And I could say the same about Jericho tbh. But let's see what happens. He has definitely reached the end of the line in AEW creatively. The fans resent him at this point because they’ve realized that all he really does is attach himself to whichever young star is hot or rising in popularity, and somehow manages to make them mean even less.

I'm still leaning towards the idea that he is working the dirt sheets to get more money out of TK. Because I know how much he and Triple H hate each other, even if they may claim to be on good terms now. You also have to wonder how these rumors spread like wildfire? And the reason for that is Jericho too. Not only does he have friends in WWE, but Dirt Sheet Dave has also been on his speed dial since the 90s. Nick Khan and the WWE brass may want to sign him just so they can boast about stealing another top guy from AEW, but deep down Jericho knows that he will never have the same level of freedom in WWE that he does in AEW.

Honestly, Jericho's best work has been done when his creative is confined to a certain extent. Vince gave him creative freedom without letting him run loose totally. This is also how almost every successful wrestler has flourished. With no control, one ends up to a point of self parody something that ended up happening to Jericho.
Yes I do agree it could all be a negotiation ploy from Jericho and he's smart about it. And it could work wonders on a gimp like TK.
On the other hand, Noseley doesn't have as much power to blacklist a signing. If Nick Khan wants to sign someone, he will whether Noseley likes it or not.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Honestly, Jericho's best work has been done when his creative is confined to a certain extent. Vince gave him creative freedom without letting him run loose totally. This is also how almost every successful wrestler has flourished. With no control, one ends up to a point of self parody something that ended up happening to Jericho.
Yes I do agree it could all be a negotiation ploy from Jericho and he's smart about it. And it could work wonders on a gimp like TK.
On the other hand, Noseley doesn't have as much power to blacklist a signing. If Nick Khan wants to sign someone, he will whether Noseley likes it or not.

That's true to an extent. I personally believe that Jericho's best days are behind him. In the past, there were times when he was given creative freedom, and then there were times when he was creatively stifled. The feud with Triple H at WrestleMania 18 is one example of when his ideas were more or less rejected infavor of 4/10 throwing his weight around and making the whole feud about H v Stephanie. Jericho's feud with Kevin Owens is another occasion where Vince kinda went cold on the whole thing and didn't really give that feud the ending it deserved, eventhough I can how Goldberg v Lesnar was a bigger match going into WrestleMania. Still I can see how being the second match on the card did feel like a slap on the face to Jericho, who even went on to say that was the biggest reason for him leaving WWE in 2018. I have also heard that the whole segment on RAW where KO turned heel on Jericho faced ALOT of pushback. And though Jericho didn't say this outright on his podcast, if you read between the lines you can tell that it was Triple H who was against it the most because apparently Vince was not at RAW that night and H was in-charge. Vince may have been cold on Jericho at certain times, but he still liked Jericho and respected him for his creativity and confidence. Thing is, Vince is gone now and Triple H is running the show.

He may not have the power to blacklist a signing but everyone knows that he is the King of Kings when it comes to burying talent. He'll use Jericho meaningfully at the start to squash the rumors that he doesn't like him. Then slowly, he will relegate Jericho to either a meaningless role, or use him just to put over his guys.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

At EC KO had the match with Sami. His feud with Cody was over on Rumble if i am correct

That is correct. But on WWE Unreal he said that their initial plan was for KO to come out and do an impromptu match where he would win the belt, after Cody said no to The Rock's offer.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That is correct. But on WWE Unreal he said that their initial plan was for KO to come out and do an impromptu match where he would win the belt, after Cody said no to The Rock's offer.

WWE Unreal seems stupid from the few clips i have seen. We have Noseley taking credit for Cena turning heel and blabbering how he envisioned Travis Scott in that segment as well. I don't know if it's meant to be taken seriously or not.
It would have been a stupid decision not to have Cody vs Cena at Mania, whoever seriously pitched it, needs to be stoned

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That's true to an extent. I personally believe that Jericho's best days are behind him. In the past, there were times when he was given creative freedom, and then there were times when he was creatively stifled. The feud with Triple H at WrestleMania 18 is one example of when his ideas were more or less rejected infavor of 4/10 throwing his weight around and making the whole feud about H v Stephanie. Jericho's feud with Kevin Owens is another occasion where Vince kinda went cold on the whole thing and didn't really give that feud the ending it deserved, eventhough I can how Goldberg v Lesnar was a bigger match going into WrestleMania. Still I can see how being the second match on the card did feel like a slap on the face to Jericho, who even went on to say that was the biggest reason for him leaving WWE in 2018. I have also heard that the whole segment on RAW where KO turned heel on Jericho faced ALOT of pushback. And though Jericho didn't say this outright on his podcast, if you read between the lines you can tell that it was Triple H who was against it the most because apparently Vince was not at RAW that night and H was in-charge. Vince may have been cold on Jericho at certain times, but he still liked Jericho and respected him for his creativity and confidence. Thing is, Vince is gone now and Triple H is running the show.

He may not have the power to blacklist a signing but everyone knows that he is the King of Kings when it comes to burying talent. He'll use Jericho meaningfully at the start to squash the rumors that he doesn't like him. Then slowly, he will relegate Jericho to either a meaningless role, or use him just to put over his guys.

Jericho said on some podcast that Noseley was saying the whole festival of friendship segment being just KO giving Jericho the list of KO and turn heel as Vince wasn't present that day. And he had to call Vince to get his original plans follow through. He actually did name Noseley on some clip. It might well be from 2017 or 2018. It was actually Jericho-AJ feud that actually brought me back to pro wrestling world after 2007. I had stopped watching WWE around 2007 and apart from little some casual viewing through 2009, only watched that Edge-Del Rio feud at Mania and Cena-Rock feud in between.

 

[Suleiman]

That is correct. But on WWE Unreal he said that their initial plan was for KO to come out and do an impromptu match where he would win the belt, after Cody said no to The Rock's offer.

Really wish KO won the belt at least once in that feud… but 4/10 is by far the worst at booking possible

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Really wish KO won the belt at least once in that feud… but 4/10 is by far the worst at booking possible

Had KO won the belt and then given Cody the piledriver it would cemented him as a top-level heel and gotten some molten heat on Cody. It would have made sense in storyline too: KO tried being a good guy but it got him nowhere. Then he finally embraced the unhinged maniac within and became champion. It didn't even need to be a long reign. Instead H just beat him again and again and again. What's remarkable to me is how KO consistently managed to keep himself credible in that feud despite not winning once. That really speaks to his talent and ability.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Jericho said on some podcast that Noseley was saying the whole festival of friendship segment being just KO giving Jericho the list of KO and turn heel as Vince wasn't present that day. And he had to call Vince to get his original plans follow through. He actually did name Noseley on some clip. It might well be from 2017 or 2018. It was actually Jericho-AJ feud that actually brought me back to pro wrestling world after 2007. I had stopped watching WWE around 2007 and apart from little some casual viewing through 2009, only watched that Edge-Del Rio feud at Mania and Cena-Rock feud in between.

Jericho-AJ feud was a year before that in 2016

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

WWE Unreal seems stupid from the few clips i have seen. We have Noseley taking credit for Cena turning heel and blabbering how he envisioned Travis Scott in that segment as well. I don't know if it's meant to be taken seriously or not.
It would have been a stupid decision not to have Cody vs Cena at Mania, whoever seriously pitched it, needs to be stoned

This show exposes Triple H and the writers big time. But that Cena heel turn episode exposes The Rock and and his waterboy Gewirtz as a bunch of tools too. I'd say watch the show before you jump to defend your idol The Rock.