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Where's the swing for Mohammad Amir?

Ellipsism said:
We must be watching different games because from what I've seen he's been bowling on average between 83-85mph through out this test.
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Think if you read this posters other posts you will realise there is a pattern
 
First Green Top Wicket for Amir since T20 World Cup vs India (since his comeback)

.... and the first in a test match since coming back in 2016

Lets see how he performs on this green top which has swing and seam available even after 50 overs..
 
I love this match already. Was raring for us to face an extreme pitch where the bowlers would have complete advantage, as we've had it very easy for the past 6 years on dead UAE tracks where this same Grandhomme dude would be neutered to a middling trundler.

Wanted to either play on a rank turner or green mamba, looks like we got the latter, and folded. Given the praise we'd got I still expected us to at least get to about 220, with Misbah the highest scorer, which is beautifully sad in a way. Beautifully sad because despite his age this guy still outperformed everyone in the team with dogged defense, yet his time is nearly over and the rest are still clueless.

Still, I think our pace attack has flattered to decieve for a long time, and as I type Rahat Unlucky Ali is giving freebies on a goddamn green track :facepalm: so clearly it's not only Amir who should be scrutinized. Pace attacks aren't 1 man shows, it's a group effort. It's like a pack of wolves hunting.
 
This pitch could would help Pakistan in long run. Amir especially if he gets wicket would a good confidence booster.
 
There is a worrying sign in his new ball bowling, he literally got no ball to move off the ball or from the seam except gun barrel straight..
 
If you look at the pitch from the angle of the batsmen's feet (when it was shown) I could literally spot no difference between the pitch from grass on the field it was so green
 
waleed88 said:
It was swinging in the 53rd over sir!
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Swing is nothing to do with a greentop - it's caused by atmospheric conditions as it is literally movement in the air.

Greentop wickets cause sharp deviation off the pitch at the split-second that the ball hits the ground.

Today's swing was because there was a bit of a period of cloud after the first hour, and it lasted until NZ was 50-3.

I repeat, this is not a greentop! :)
 
Looks like the next Akram will have to beef up his stats by taking out slogging lower order batsmen like Southee and tailenders like Boult.
 
Classic Kiwi pitch: the grass died around 50 overs into the match and is turning dark brown!

IMG_8143.jpg
 
There is something seriously wrong with Amir's action... his action is affecting his swing
 
waleed88 said:
There is something seriously wrong with Amir's action... his action is affecting his swing
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Maybe, but look at the long shadows in the picture I uploaded.

The cloud cover has gone. There is no swing available.
 
Junaids said:
Maybe, but look at the long shadows in the picture I uploaded.

The cloud cover has gone. There is no swing available.
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On the same pitch Sohail Khan got to beat the bat plenty of times, and Amir didn't..

Amir just doesn't look comfortable with the first new ball
 
waleed88 said:
On the same pitch Sohail Khan got to beat the bat plenty of times, and Amir didn't..

Amir just doesn't look comfortable with the first new ball
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Actually, I thought Amir bowled the right line and length, but Sohail and Rabat were far too short and wide.

Every single ball needs to be aimed at the top of off-stump Down Under. Every single ball!
 
waleed88 said:
On the same pitch Sohail Khan got to beat the bat plenty of times, and Amir didn't..

Amir just doesn't look comfortable with the first new ball
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Don't you get it? It has to do w/weather and not pitch. Amir did beat the bat.
 
waleed88 said:
There is a worrying sign in his new ball bowling, he literally got no ball to move off the ball or from the seam except gun barrel straight..
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to be fair Waleed, I didn't see much from Boult and Southee either with the new ball on this track. There was literally no movement of the pitch.

I'm still shock to see how Pakistan have been bundled out for a low total by a newbie.
 
OP just needs a reason to incessantly bash Amir, he got plenty of deliveries to swing. As the cloud cover disappeared the swing on offer went with it and obviously Amir started bowling straighter
 
Junaids said:
Maybe, but look at the long shadows in the picture I uploaded.

The cloud cover has gone. There is no swing available.
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Rayyman said:
Don't you get it? It has to do w/weather and not pitch. Amir did beat the bat.
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angrypathan said:
OP just needs a reason to incessantly bash Amir, he got plenty of deliveries to swing. As the cloud cover disappeared the swing on offer went with it and obviously Amir started bowling straighter
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I feel sorry for poor Ali who did not get the first use of the new ball then. He might have taken more wickets when cloud was still there
 
I have a feeling that even if Amir finishes with a career average of 30, people will still have excuses ready to rank him alongside greats.
 
He still needs to work a lot. No where near the top 5 bowlers in Tests or ODI right now.

Has the potential (from what we saw 6 years back), but he doesnt seem to be anything extraordinary right now.
 
waleed88 said:
It was swinging in the 53rd over sir!
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Your lack of knowledge here is quite clear. Greentop helps the ball seam not swing. Swing is always in the air. Seam is always off the pitch. Its the conditions which helped the ball swing and seam.
 
Junaids said:
Swing is nothing to do with a greentop - it's caused by atmospheric conditions as it is literally movement in the air.

Greentop wickets cause sharp deviation off the pitch at the split-second that the ball hits the ground.

Today's swing was because there was a bit of a period of cloud after the first hour, and it lasted until NZ was 50-3.

I repeat, this is not a greentop! :)
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Gotta agree with this. This ain't a greentop. Ball was swinging more than seaming.

Btw there is going to be a cloud cover (according to forecasts) tomorrow throughout the day so I expect that we will get the ball to swing.

Expecting NZ to get out sub-200 because their best batsmen have already lost their wickets. NZ batting line-up is mediocre to say the least apart from Williamson.
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
Gotta agree with this. This ain't a greentop. Ball was swinging more than seaming.

Btw there is going to be a cloud cover (according to forecasts) tomorrow throughout the day so I expect that we will get the ball to swing.

Expecting NZ to get out sub-200 because their best batsmen have already lost their wickets. NZ batting line-up is mediocre to say the least apart from Williamson.
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As I wrote in the other thread, it's the closest thing to preparation for the Pink Ball Day Night Test at the Gabba, given that the only warm-up game involves Cricket Australia deliberately sending Pakistan to watch the rain fall in Cairns.

Babar Azam and Asad Shafiq and Sarfraz Ahmed need to learn what to leave outside off-stump, and how to play with soft hands.
 
Hagley Oval is a deceptive green top. It doesn't actually seam around that much.

Plenty of swing in the air though.
 
Junaids said:
As I wrote in the other thread, it's the closest thing to preparation for the Pink Ball Day Night Test at the Gabba, given that the only warm-up game involves Cricket Australia deliberately sending Pakistan to watch the rain fall in Cairns.

Babar Azam and Asad Shafiq and Sarfraz Ahmed need to learn what to leave outside off-stump, and how to play with soft hands.
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Would you drop Babar and play Sharjeel as opener in AUS?
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
Your lack of knowledge here is quite clear. Greentop helps the ball seam not swing. Swing is always in the air. Seam is always off the pitch. Its the conditions which helped the ball swing and seam.
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But Amir's strength was always swing and not seam. I haven't seen him seaming much at all.
 
Space Cat said:
Hagley Oval is a deceptive green top. It doesn't actually seam around that much.

Plenty of swing in the air though.
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You could have told that earlier bro. We all got too excited thinking that it would be a repeat of THAT Mirpur match vs IND :facepalm:
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
Would you drop Babar and play Sharjeel as opener in AUS?
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Actually no, because I think the Aussies will bowl every ball to Sharjeel on a full length. Just like Dale Steyn did to Nasir Jamshed.

The only really quick Aussie bowler is Starc, but he gets his wickets by bowling a full length.
 
Greentop or not, this wicket does have something in it for the bowlers and is much better than a UAE pitch. Are people claiming Amir can perform only and only on a Mirpur or an England 2010 kind of wicket?
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
See mirpur match vs IND. Got both Rohit and Rahane through extravagant seam (and swing).
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Was more swing in the air as far as I recall, the ball moved in the air towards the batsmen a lot
 
way too hyped. He is another ordinary fast bowler from pakistan which pakistan is producing in abundance.
 
Indiafan said:
Greentop or not, this wicket does have something in it for the bowlers and is much better than a UAE pitch. Are people claiming Amir can perform only and only on a Mirpur or an England 2010 kind of wicket?
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Nope. There's plenty of time left in the match so I think we should wait before passing such judgements. I'd say Amir has bowled well as of yet and if there is swing on offer tomorrow then he will definitely trouble NZ because not much batting is left. All the main batsmen are already gone. I'm still predicting 5-fer for Amir :p
 
This was at lunch.

20161118_132054_zps0ftzr4fm.jpg
 
Junaids said:
Sharjeel would be perfect against Doug Bollinger, but he won't play!
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But IIRC in your POTW you said that we needed back-foot players who can play cut, pull and hook with ease. Sharjeel ticks most of the boxes in that regard.
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
But IIRC in your POTW you said that we needed back-foot players who can play cut, pull and hook with ease. Sharjeel ticks most of the boxes in that regard.
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I'm flattered that you remember!

But I wrote it two years ago, expecting an attack of Pattinson, Johnson and Cummins.

They would have provided a lot of balls to cut and pull.

But Pakistan will probably face Starc, Hazlewood and Bird, who will all bowl fuller.
 
Junaids said:
I'm flattered that you remember!

But I wrote it two years ago, expecting an attack of Pattinson, Johnson and Cummins.

They would have provided a lot of balls to cut and pull.

But Pakistan will probably face Starc, Hazlewood and Bird, who will all bowl fuller.
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Hmm..........fair judgement.

Btw, what score are you expecting from NZ 1st innings with expected cloud cover throughout tomorrow?
 
The pitch has just become quicker and bouncier.. the green grass is gone! This has become much better for batting and will become even better .. wahab should have played
 
Terribly overrated. He would have been rated as just another bowler like Rahat, Wahab etc. had he not been banned for 6 years, just like how Umar Akmal would have been hyped as the next Tendulkar if he would have been banned in 2010.

Asif was the real top quality bowler. Genuine world class and we miss him dearly.
 
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Rayyman said:
Don't you get it? It has to do w/weather and not pitch. Amir did beat the bat.
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I am watching the highlights right now... he bowled a total of 6 overs, and then was taken off the attack.. why was he taken off the attack and Sohail Khan persisted with for 10 overs?
 
MRSN said:
to be fair Waleed, I didn't see much from Boult and Southee either with the new ball on this track. There was literally no movement of the pitch.

I'm still shock to see how Pakistan have been bundled out for a low total by a newbie.
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Boult and Southee swung it in the 47th over.. saw it with my own eyes..

Southee made Misbah play and miss every over

The delivery that got Amir was bowled by boult swung from the middle stump..

There is seam and swing in the pitch if you know how to induce it
 
Junaids said:
Actually, I thought Amir bowled the right line and length, but Sohail and Rabat were far too short and wide.

Every single ball needs to be aimed at the top of off-stump Down Under. Every single ball!
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You were watching another match apparently.. Amir was taken off after 6 overs, (not coz he was fatigued) but because he was not swinging it at all.. if Misbah wanted economy he would've persisted with future Akram, but he wanted a wicket and Amir looked like barely a wicket taking bowler
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
See mirpur match vs IND. Got both Rohit and Rahane through extravagant seam (and swing).
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Can't categorize ineptness from the bowler on the pitch that had everything to offer if you know what to bowl.. Sohail Khan showed you that, making Raval play and miss every over
 
Mamoon said:
Terribly overrated. He would have been rated as just another bowler like Rahat, Wahab etc. had he not been banned for 6 years, just like how Umar Akmal would have been hyped as the next Tendulkar if he would have been banned in 2010.

Asif was the real top quality bowler. Genuine world class and we miss him dearly.
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You were right about the fact that our bowlers are genuinely inept when it comes to extract swing from the pitch (seam) there is no bowler like Bhuveshner Kumar in our lineup right now.. the only saving grace in our lineup has been Yasir Shah, whenever he's not performing we lose the game
 
I seriously think he lost his wrist form. Bowlers go through that. He was bowling sharp in swinging balls in Bangladesh during Asia Cup. That's missing.
 
Swing is achieved through the air and relies heavily on the density of air, I shall elaborate further in the evening :afridi NZ had the luxury of bowling in such conditions, I think Amir's critics are the ones who overly hype him given that they are left dissapointed if he doesn't get a 5fer every game but he is yet to hit his stride for a number of factors but on this particular day didn't bowl terribly. Only an Asif as far as Pakistani bowlers are concerned would have been skill full enough to utilize the "pitch" itself which didn't have as much grass on it when we had a bowl.
 
Amir about to bowl here on PTV sports highlights, those who have any doubts about his swinging ability can watch it here the marvel at this once in a generation bowler
 
have always maintained his wickets pre ban were not due to green tops or anything like that it was sheer talents today it proves even with pitch supporting him he is just unable to get that movement he just does not have the same momentum to the crease that he use to have as a teenage boy. Five years of no cricket has finished him bowling is an unatural process if you are not doing it day in and day out the skill will leave you. Today I am finally convinced he's not ever going to be back.
 
waleed88 said:
You were right about the fact that our bowlers are genuinely inept when it comes to extract swing from the pitch (seam) there is no bowler like Bhuveshner Kumar in our lineup right now.. the only saving grace in our lineup has been Yasir Shah, whenever he's not performing we lose the game
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B Kumar would have ran through NZ on a pitch like this. Our bowlers don't understand what length to bowl on such wickets.

They have become hacks who just run in hard without any thought-process, and look potent in patches only when the ball starts to reverse.

I really fear for our bowling attack in Australia. If they manage to nullify Yasir, we will be in for a very tough time and it will be a repeat of the Old Trafford and Edgbaston Tests.
 
Should be dropped after this series. I've had enough of this guy. Like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] said Asif was the real world class bowler and we miss him badly. I'm open to giving Asif another chance in the team. Future Akram should go and play domestic cricket and get his swing back.
 
I would be very worried about Amir's new ball skills.. this should be a concern and this issue needs to be sorted out..
 
He hasn't bowled any bad atleast from what i sawed today

He bowled very straight in tighter lines and yea with very less movements,that might be disappoint from his standards

The biggest lambaste he now facing is he's always been compare to what he is used to be before last 6 years
 
GLORY OF '92 said:
Wahab took a 5fer in his last Test yet Amir has once again failed in perfect conditions. How long will we be patient and keep selecting him over better bowlers due to what he done 6 years ago?
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Amir hasn't done anything magical, agreed!! But he was way better than Sohail and Rahat both!!! so please find 3 better fast bowlers than him who are as consistent as him (even if he isn't getting the swing) . .

This entire "picking on Mohammad Amir after every over, every spell, every game" stuff has become absolutely preposterous . . literally there are 2 to 3 threads that get created castigating him for not producing magical spells/balls . . and just btw . . The guys averaged 29 before he was banned in 2010 . . not 20! He was a good bowler who was getting better . . He had ONE exceptional series and that was in England . . and he is still a good bowler who will get better!
 
The_KING said:
Should be dropped after this series. I've had enough of this guy. Like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] said Asif was the real world class bowler and we miss him badly. I'm open to giving Asif another chance in the team. Future Akram should go and play domestic cricket and get his swing back.
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I think if he is still below par after the Australian series, then he should definitely be shown the door. International cricket is not a platform where you are supposed to find your rhythm.

If he doesn't perform he has no business playing. He needs to be treated like just any other bowler and the excuses are falling short now, he has been playing regularly for a year.
 
waleed88 said:
I would be very worried about Amir's new ball skills.. this should be a concern and this issue needs to be sorted out..
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Our bowling attack is awful when it comes to new ball swing. Sohail as the skills but because of his unreliable fitness, you don't know which Sohail will turn up on a given day.

Watching Anderson bowl yesterday with the second new ball and Shami today on a dead pitch for pacers was great to watch. The best Asian pacer these days comfortably.
 
He'll come good. Ironically still the best bowler when he's at his worse.

The usual haters will hate so we can put them on the ignore list.
 
Apart from the clouds not being there when Pakistan started to bowl, the extra little bit of moisture which would have been there at the start of play will have dried up too. The pitch is going to play flat from here I suspect.

Besides Amir already got one wicket with the new ball. What are you detractors expecting him to do? Turn up every day and take 8 wickets before lunch on day 1 like he was Glenn McGrath at Lord's?

It doesn't matter if he gets 0 degrees of swing or 90 degrees, all that matters in the end is wickets and he ripped out Tom Latham, one of NZ's key batsmen, for one.
 
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NauV said:
This entire "picking on Mohammad Amir after every over, every spell, every game" stuff has become absolutely preposterous . . literally there are 2 to 3 threads that get created castigating him for not producing magical spells/balls . . and just btw . . The guys averaged 29 before he was banned in 2010 . . not 20! He was a good bowler who was getting better . . He had ONE exceptional series and that was in England . . and he is still a good bowler who will get better!
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I think many posters mix potential with actual performance. He had good time in Eng in perfect bowling conditions. He didn't have good time in other venues even back then. So it was always work in progress and not some ATG. He is a good bowler, but we still have fans talking about Amir comfortably belonging in the top 10 bowlers despite not doing anything. He gets all this criticism mainly due to those fans hyping him to moon.

He hasn't bowled poorly unless expectations were too high.
 
If he wasn't Mohammad Amir and someone else had been bowling like him do you think they would of been dropped by now? IMO yes, he is the least threatening of the Pakistan bowlers as a Kiwi I fear Sohail, Wahab and Ali more.
Think he might just be a ODI bowler for now sadly
 
NauV said:
Amir hasn't done anything magical, agreed!! But he was way better than Sohail and Rahat both!!! so please find 3 better fast bowlers than him who are as consistent as him (even if he isn't getting the swing) . .

This entire "picking on Mohammad Amir after every over, every spell, every game" stuff has become absolutely preposterous . . literally there are 2 to 3 threads that get created castigating him for not producing magical spells/balls . . and just btw . . The guys averaged 29 before he was banned in 2010 . . not 20! He was a good bowler who was getting better . . He had ONE exceptional series and that was in England . . and he is still a good bowler who will get better!
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Over by over, good moments from Amir and Sohail's spell.. These are the first 6 overs of each bowler, Amir was taken off after 6 overs, and Sohail went on to bowl 4 more overs...

Amir beat the outside edge a total of 2 times in 6 overs (using the seam of the delivery), get 2 lbw shouts of which one is given.. the highlighted deliveries are the ones that actually seamed away from the batsmen..

Sohail Khan beats the bat 5 times, induced 3 outside edges of batsmen of which 1 gets him a wicket, 1 lbw/batpad shout, and consistently swung it both ways (mind you this is only the first 6 overs he bowled 4 more)


1st over Amir didn't get any to move away from the left hander

Sohail Khan beat the bat once at 1.6 from Tom Latham

Amir beats the outside edge of Latham at 2.4 hint of away movement

Sohail 2.5 huge swing back into latham that gets an appeal from SK from Lbw and bat pad

3.3 Amir gets lbw latham brings it back into Latham... seam was positioned to move away from Latham and he brings it back in

4.1 Swing by sohail moves it away from Raval.. swings it away from Raval beats the bat

4.6 Sohail brings it back into Raval let's it go beautiful seam position brings it back in to Raval goes over the stumps

5.5 Williamson plays it late.. Amir swings it away from Williamson who guides the ball in the gully area

7.4 Amir swings it away from Williamson finds the gap plays it late gets two runs in the gully region

9.1 Sohail gets Williamson.. swings it away from williamson who tries to drive it on the backfoot it goes to first slip and Williamson is out

9.2 Beautiful seam away from Ross Taylor beats the outside edge.. very good first ball

9.5 Sohail pitches it up and again beats the outside edge of Ross Taylor full length and moved away

9.6 Another delivery past the outside edge of taylor... beat him all ends up

10.1 Amir swings it away from Raval beautiful delivery...

10.4 Amir swings it back in to Raval. Going down the leg side, lbw shout but going down the leg side

11.2 Sohail induces an outside edge from Raval and it goes for 4... wide of gully

11.6 Taylor drives it uppishly from Sohail.. the ball was in the air for a little bit.. cries of catch it'
 
If anyone saw Sohail Khan's over to Ross Taylor, that was some insane fast bowling, probably the best over by any Pakistani the whole innings..

I guarantee you if that was Amir doing that we would have all gone over the moon for that spell..

Its just Sohail Khan isn't the type of bowler who's given future ATG status for bowling so well.. or doesn't derive the kind of fandom Amir does
 
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