Australia v South Africa | 2nd Test | Hobart | Nov 12-16, 2016 | Day 1

[Justcrazy]

SA trail by 9 runs still , they have six wickets down.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Lovely first delivery

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Glorious. On the up

 

[soso_killer]

On merit, either Morne Morkel or Kyle Abbott should have played at Perth in a 4 man pace attack. Either Duminy could have been the spinner, or De Kock could have batted higher.

Morkel doesn't merit anything, he was out bowled by a rookie when SA needed him the most. CSA have invested over 70 matches on him. For him to bowl as he did against England was hugely disappointing. Morkel is a passenger, nothing more. No 10-for or match winning performance over 70 Tests.

JP isn't good enough to play as a specialist spinner. Maharaja was instrumental in collapsing Australia and was the right selection. Nothing to argue about here.
With Steyn injured having JP, Rabada and Philander would have been suicide. By the same token playing four seamers with a part time spinner isn't smart. We've been there before and almost lost a Test.

The problem is that there have to be 6 players of colour selected of whom 2 much be black.

Again you don't know what you're talking about. CSA has made it clear that the system will be flexible and not stringent. JP is likely to be dropped for AB.

Bavuma and Rabada start every Test because only they fill the black positions. That will be hard for them if and when they go through a bad run of form.

Let me get this straight, players of colour aren't allowed to be out form whilst the whites are? Isn't that the "reverse racism" you've been bemoaning?
Basically what you're saying is as long as they are performing they aren't quota players and when they fail they are? Thus blocking the path of the whites?
Yet on the other hand you're advocating for an underperforming Morkel? i expect you to be consistent Mr.

That left the selectors needing to find 4 other coloured players. Amla and Philander are there on merit, while Duminy would be there on merit now but hasn't been of late.

Your opinions change faster than my pregnant wife's mood swings. One minute Philander is playing on merit the next his a rubbish quota player past his best.
Let's be honest hear and call a spade a spade, no player of colour is playing on merit in your views. At least have the gall bladder to admit it.

So in order to have FAF as skipper, that only leaves 1 position for a white fast bowler. So it became a matter of picking one out of Steyn or Abbott or Morkel, and omitting two of them.

The only way to get a second white fast bowler in was to either drop a white batsman or drop the white wicketkeeper, which can't happen anyway as the back-up keeper is white too.

These are the trade-offs which have to be made all the time.

So we should have dropped Rabada then.

Thanks for addressing Cook, Van Zyl and Harris.

 

[Justcrazy]

SA one shot away from taking a lead.

 

[soso_killer]

Amla's career on the line here.

why?

 

[Gilly]

Mmmm.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, one Test team has in the last 5 years been:

47 all out
60 all out
85 all out.

Oh well, at least the Aussies are improving.

So how many test matches victories over Australia did that give NZ?

 

[Junaids]

So how many test matches victories over Australia did that give NZ?

Well, I admitted that I got that wrong. Nothing to see here folks.

 

[jeetu]

South Africa 93/4 (34 ov)
Hashim Amla (rhb) 32 (41)
Temba Bavuma (rhb) 8 (25)

 

[Justcrazy]

35 no out , he is the key here

 

[Justcrazy]

SA lead by 11 runs so far , Aussies will be happy to keep them under 75

 

[Justcrazy]

Starc is back , they are looking for a wicket

 

[Justcrazy]

37 runs partnership so far

29 runs lead.

 

[Protea Fan]

Dammit Amla was looking so good

His wrist was on full fire after a long time

 

[jeetu]

South Africa 162-5 (50)
Temba Bavuma not out 30 (69)
Quinton de Kock not out 25 (25)

 

[Dark Magician]

Seriously, that's not in great taste.

Stephen Cook missed 6 years of Test cricket because Alviro Peterson was picked for quota reasons in spite of being an inferior batsman.

I marched for the Anti-Apartheid movement in the 1980s. But I didn't march for reversed racism.

Who picks three quicks and a spinner at the WACA? And South Africa had to, because they needed to pick a spinner for his colour.

You know I respect your cricket analysis but you don't understand the political situation of people of my kind in South Africa and I take exception to you peddling lies here.

Alviro was not a qouta player. At the time he was picked he was the highest averaging Opener in RSA. Cook was blowing hot and cold and if anything a guy like Russouw or Puttick is one who can feel a bit hard done.

Interestingly, all the so called qouta players have done well when selected. I'm telling you straight here and now that most of those players would never have been given a chance if it wasn't for qoutas and if some of you people have a problem with that, tough luck.

Institutionalised racism started in 1652 when white people got here. Things like qoutas have only been around for less than 20 years and you know very well why they exist, so why are you calling it reverse racism?

Anyway this has been a good test match with the so called qouta players performing outstandingly. At least acknowledge that instead of peddling lies about a situation you and a vast majority of forumites have no idea about.

Enjoy the game

 

[Ozymandiasza]

Ugh, couldn't watch a second of cricket. Australia and their screwed up timezone.

Looking good though. Well done to Philander

 

[Dark Magician]

Morkel doesn't merit anything, he was out bowled by a rookie when SA needed him the most. CSA have invested over 70 matches on him. For him to bowl as he did against England was hugely disappointing. Morkel is a passenger, nothing more. No 10-for or match winning performance over 70 Tests.

JP isn't good enough to play as a specialist spinner. Maharaja was instrumental in collapsing Australia and was the right selection. Nothing to argue about here.
With Steyn injured having JP, Rabada and Philander would have been suicide. By the same token playing four seamers with a part time spinner isn't smart. We've been there before and almost lost a Test.

Again you don't know what you're talking about. CSA has made it clear that the system will be flexible and not stringent. JP is likely to be dropped for AB.

Let me get this straight, players of colour aren't allowed to be out form whilst the whites are? Isn't that the "reverse racism" you've been bemoaning?
Basically what you're saying is as long as they are performing they aren't quota players and when they fail they are? Thus blocking the path of the whites?
Yet on the other hand you're advocating for an underperforming Morkel? i expect you to be consistent Mr.

Your opinions change faster than my pregnant wife's mood swings. One minute Philander is playing on merit the next his a rubbish quota player past his best.
Let's be honest hear and call a spade a spade, no player of colour is playing on merit in your views. At least have the gall bladder to admit it.


So we should have dropped Rabada then.

Thanks for addressing Cook, Van Zyl and Harris.

Junaids has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

 

[Junaids]

You know I respect your cricket analysis but you don't understand the political situation of people of my kind in South Africa and I take exception to you peddling lies here.

Alviro was not a qouta player. At the time he was picked he was the highest averaging Opener in RSA. Cook was blowing hot and cold and if anything a guy like Russouw or Puttick is one who can feel a bit hard done.

Interestingly, all the so called qouta players have done well when selected. I'm telling you straight here and now that most of those players would never have been given a chance if it wasn't for qoutas and if some of you people have a problem with that, tough luck.

Institutionalised racism started in 1652 when white people got here. Things like qoutas have only been around for less than 20 years and you know very well why they exist, so why are you calling it reverse racism?

Anyway this has been a good test match with the so called qouta players performing outstandingly. At least acknowledge that instead of peddling lies about a situation you and a vast majority of forumites have no idea about.

Enjoy the game

I do actually accept most of those points.

The problem is that the quotas are simply too hard and fast. Yes, I know that they are supposedly meant to be averaged out across a season - but I also remember how Mickey Arthur lost his job for not using them in every game, and that Kyle Abbott had to make way for Vern Philander on one leg in the World Cup semi-final.

If you go back to the last Test at the WACA, you know as well as I do that the team could only have had a second white fast bowler if they had dropped a white batsman to accommodate him.

And as someone who marched against Apartheid in the 1980's that offends me.

Affirmative action is necessary and good. But it always has to be done with common sense and pragmatism.

 

[Adijazz1706]

This is ridiculous from Australia, 85 all out at home! Hazlewood seems to have the wood on

 

[OS_89]

Morkel doesn't merit anything, he was out bowled by a rookie when SA needed him the most. CSA have invested over 70 matches on him. For him to bowl as he did against England was hugely disappointing. Morkel is a passenger, nothing more. No 10-for or match winning performance over 70 Tests.

JP isn't good enough to play as a specialist spinner. Maharaja was instrumental in collapsing Australia and was the right selection. Nothing to argue about here.
With Steyn injured having JP, Rabada and Philander would have been suicide. By the same token playing four seamers with a part time spinner isn't smart. We've been there before and almost lost a Test.

Again you don't know what you're talking about. CSA has made it clear that the system will be flexible and not stringent. JP is likely to be dropped for AB.

Let me get this straight, players of colour aren't allowed to be out form whilst the whites are? Isn't that the "reverse racism" you've been bemoaning?
Basically what you're saying is as long as they are performing they aren't quota players and when they fail they are? Thus blocking the path of the whites?
Yet on the other hand you're advocating for an underperforming Morkel? i expect you to be consistent Mr.

Your opinions change faster than my pregnant wife's mood swings. One minute Philander is playing on merit the next his a rubbish quota player past his best.
Let's be honest hear and call a spade a spade, no player of colour is playing on merit in your views. At least have the gall bladder to admit it.


So we should have dropped Rabada then.

Thanks for addressing Cook, Van Zyl and Harris.

Great post. Junaids was spouting trash.

 

[Junaids]

Great post. Junaids was spouting trash.

I put it to you that while that is very, very often the case, it isn't here.

Given that this is PakPassion, let me remind you how Mickey Arthur lost his job as coach of South Africa.

There were the same "soft" supposedly flexible type of transformation targets, although the numbers were lower then.

Makhaya Ntini went into age-related decline and could no longer be selected, so for the final two Tests against England no black (as opposed to coloured) players were selected.

The Chief Executive (Gerald Majola) then sacked Mickey Arthur but also dismissed the selection panel (which was led by Mike Procter) and installed himself as chairman of an emergency selection committee.

Transformation is important. But I would argue that the people who are naive are those who think that the targets are optional. Mickey Arthur was once that naive man. And it cost him his job.

 

[MenInG]

VERNON PHILANDER exploited conditions that were tailor made for him to claim his 10th five-wicket haul and his third against Australia to give the Standard Bank Proteas a decisive advantage on the opening day of the second Test match at Hobart on Saturday.

Faf du Plessis won his second toss of the series and had no hesitation in bowling first in heavily overcast that were ideal for seam and swing bowling and that saw the start of play briefly delayed by rain.

Philander took 5/21 including getting the key wicket of David Warner in his opening over, in spite of having to leave the field for treatment to his shoulder after a mid-pitch collision with Australian captain Steve Smith, to send Australia packing to their lowest total in a home Test match in more than 30 years.

It was their third lowest total against South Africa and their lowest against the Proteas in Australia.

The Proteas had taken 10/86 against Australia at Perth and this time they went one better as the home side were bowled out for 85 in 32.5 overs. Kyle Abbott, who replaced Dale Steyn in the only change to the South African side, backed Philander up with three wickets while Kagiso Rabada picked up one in the six overs that were required from him and Dane Vilas, substituting for Philander, produced a direct hit run out to account for Australian new cap Callum Ferguson.

The value of Australia’s short innings can be seen in the extra rest it will give South Africa’s bowlers after their extreme exertions in Perth.

The other feature of the Australian first innings was the brilliance of the Proteas fielding. In addition to the run out there was some great catching by Quinton de Kock as well as by Hashim Amla and JP Duminy in the slips.

By the close the Proteas had lost 5 wickets themselves on a fast-moving day but had doubled the Australian total to take the lead to 86 runs.

If the Proteas can extend their lead beyond the 150 mark on the second day then they will hold a very strong hand. What will really encourage them was the way the batting settled down after an inspired spell by Mitchell Starc immediately after the tea interval when the Proteas lost 3 wickets for 3 runs after a solid start by Stephen Cook and Dean Elgar.

It remains to be seen if conditions are getting slightly easier but Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma and De Kock all batted confidently into the final 90 minutes of play. Amla looked to be back to somewhere near his best (47 off 67 balls, 5 fours) until he chased a wide ball from Josh Hazlewood. It was only one run shy of Smith’s top score of the day (48 not out, 80 deliveries, 5 fours).

The key point was that there were successive partnerships of 56 between Amla and Bavuma and then an unbroken 39 between Bavuma and De Kock.

The match situation underlines what a key role De Kock fills at No. 7 as it means that the top six are always going to have a reliable partner to build totals.

Australia simply don’t have the same batting depth as was illustrated by today’s events with new cap Joe Mennie the only player apart from Smith to reach double figures.

Conditions may have been difficult but they weren’t as treacherous as the Australian total suggests.

 

[shah_1]

So happy that Temba Bavuma is doing well, another player on quota justifying his spot.

Rabada and him can be inspiration for other black people out there

 

[Junaids]

So happy that Temba Bavuma is doing well, another player on quota justifying his spot.

Rabada and him can be inspiration for other black people out there

Yes, it's fabulous.

But it's horrible that they even get called quota players. Rabada would be worth a place whatever colour he was, and Bavuma is reaching that level too.

The sad thing is that, like in Zimbabwe, most black kids never see a televised game of cricket.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Cook is not a test class opener.

 

[Mamoon]

This Australian team is the worst I have ever seen in my lifetime. If they play on the same wickets against Pakistan, they are going to lose the series for sure.

Still remember [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] calling Australia better than Pakistan in tests.

Which Pakistani batsmen is capable of batting well on such a track? We got a hint of grass at Old Trafford and England walloped us.

No one has ever called Australia a good team on green wickets. They are the worst non-Asian team when it comes to playing lateral movement, but we are arguably the worst Asian team when it comes to lateral movement.

Pakistan beating Australia on greentops is not a straight forward conclusion. Yes, we will fare better against them compared to playing England or SA on greentops, but it will come down to the pace battery and Australia's pace attack is superior to ours.

Amir can bowl on such wickets but Wahab and Rahat are useless on greentops, while Sohail has the tools but not the fitness to last throughout the Test.

Australia are the best team in the world on flat pitches with bounce and pace, but the worst with a bit of turn.

Pakistan is a very good team on slow, dry wickets but their ability to do well on rank-turners is terribly overrated.

However, I do hope that we get such wickets in Australia because it will allow us to compete better. We have no chance on traditional Australian wickets, they will bat us out of the game. They score big and score quick.

 

[style_guru]

SA are without the services of their premiere fast bowler and batsman in the form of Steyn & ABD. To come out & perform like champions shows the character of the team.

Hope Phil is able to come back & bowl in 2nd inning. It would be a tragedy to see him go out with an injury just when he is doing so well

 

[soso_killer]

I do actually accept most of those points.

The problem is that the quotas are simply too hard and fast. Yes, I know that they are supposedly meant to be averaged out across a season - but I also remember how Mickey Arthur lost his job for not using them in every game, and that Kyle Abbott had to make way for Vern Philander on one leg in the World Cup semi-final.

If you go back to the last Test at the WACA, you know as well as I do that the team could only have had a second white fast bowler if they had dropped a white batsman to accommodate him.

And as someone who marched against Apartheid in the 1980's that offends me.

Affirmative action is necessary and good. But it always has to be done with common sense and pragmatism.

As far as I know Mickey resigned
And Vern bowled better than Steyn anyway.
Why wasn't he ever dropped or copped criticism?
Bowling a length delivery in the dying stages has got to be the dumbest decision ever made. That's actually a choke from a good player who had a poor world cup.

Don't allow the media to trick you into their own narrative. QDK is another player who had a shocking WC, but hey we shouldn't allow facts to get in the way of a good story

 

[Junaids]

As far as I know Mickey resigned
And Vern bowled better than Steyn anyway.
Why wasn't he ever dropped or copped criticism?
Bowling a length delivery in the dying stages has got to be the dumbest decision ever made. That's actually a choke from a good player who had a poor world cup.

Don't allow the media to trick you into their own narrative. QDK is another player who had a shocking WC, but hey we shouldn't allow facts to get in the way of a good story

I agree with all those points, believe it or not!

Dale Steyn was a great limited overs player for a long time, but when he started to lose his pace he really became a pretty marginal LOI players.

Part of my argument for pragmatism is that it often does the non-white players a disservice when they are selected when they shouldn't be. Philander has had a wonderful Test career, and didn't really deserve to be singled out for the World Cup defeat. Not in terms of his performance, but in terms of how he caused Kyle Abbott to lose his place.

 

[soso_killer]

I agree with all those points, believe it or not!

Dale Steyn was a great limited overs player for a long time, but when he started to lose his pace he really became a pretty marginal LOI players.

Part of my argument for pragmatism is that it often does the non-white players a disservice when they are selected when they shouldn't be. Philander has had a wonderful Test career, and didn't really deserve to be singled out for the World Cup defeat. Not in terms of his performance, but in terms of how he caused Kyle Abbott to lose his place.

why wasn't Steyn dropped?

 

[Junaids]

You know I respect your cricket analysis but you don't understand the political situation of people of my kind in South Africa and I take exception to you peddling lies here.

Alviro was not a qouta player. At the time he was picked he was the highest averaging Opener in RSA. Cook was blowing hot and cold and if anything a guy like Russouw or Puttick is one who can feel a bit hard done.

Interestingly, all the so called qouta players have done well when selected. I'm telling you straight here and now that most of those players would never have been given a chance if it wasn't for qoutas and if some of you people have a problem with that, tough luck.

Institutionalised racism started in 1652 when white people got here. Things like qoutas have only been around for less than 20 years and you know very well why they exist, so why are you calling it reverse racism?

Anyway this has been a good test match with the so called qouta players performing outstandingly. At least acknowledge that instead of peddling lies about a situation you and a vast majority of forumites have no idea about.

Enjoy the game

After our Alviro Petersen discussion, you'd better check out the awful news coming out these last 10 minutes. It's so sad.
[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] ?

 

[Convict]

Where are [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] and [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION] when you need their input?

two uni exams on monday.

I was very unhappy at the exam scheduling but now I find it quite a bonus.

Get to avoid the cricket and all the politics this week

 

[Pete Rose]

I was just listening to the post match presser from Darren Lehman.
My view on him remains unchanged. Admittedly, I have very little insight on Cricket Australia but a few things stand out for me from his coaching stint.
1 - He talks way too much in homilies and generalities
2 - There is way too much mollycoddling of the Australian players
3 - People seemed to be sold on this idea that getting clarke and mickey out of the system was the tonic to turn things around: and why wouldn't you feel that way, when all the players themselves (Mitch J, Watson) talk about the 'toxic' atmosphere. So you got the feeling that Lehmann felt pretty happy with those two wins in England - and his role there being allowing the guys to be themselves.
4 - He seems unable and unwilling to read the riot act to his team. (maybe he does behind closed doors)

So, all in all, he just seems like one the company guys afflicted by the group think that affects the rest of cricket australia: pontificating about doing away with the toss, cheering on the existing somewhat meager talent is on display, and part of a process where everything except the bottomline seems to matter.

Maybe, its all premature to bring this up and tomorrow will be a different story, but I think its time for Boof and Sutherland to go.
4 -

 

[Pete Rose]

Which Pakistani batsmen is capable of batting well on such a track? We got a hint of grass at Old Trafford and England walloped us.

No one has ever called Australia a good team on green wickets. They are the worst non-Asian team when it comes to playing lateral movement, but we are arguably the worst Asian team when it comes to lateral movement.

Pakistan beating Australia on greentops is not a straight forward conclusion. Yes, we will fare better against them compared to playing England or SA on greentops, but it will come down to the pace battery and Australia's pace attack is superior to ours.

Amir can bowl on such wickets but Wahab and Rahat are useless on greentops, while Sohail has the tools but not the fitness to last throughout the Test.

Australia are the best team in the world on flat pitches with bounce and pace, but the worst with a bit of turn.

Pakistan is a very good team on slow, dry wickets but their ability to do well on rank-turners is terribly overrated.

However, I do hope that we get such wickets in Australia because it will allow us to compete better. We have no chance on traditional Australian wickets, they will bat us out of the game. They score big and score quick.

Old trafford was not a grassy wicket. it was a true wicket with bounce

 

[Junaids]

two uni exams on monday.

I was very unhappy at the exam scheduling but now I find it quite a bonus.

Get to avoid the cricket and all the politics this week

Good luck mate. Hope the exams work out for you.

 

[Junaids]

I was just listening to the post match presser from Darren Lehman.
My view on him remains unchanged. Admittedly, I have very little insight on Cricket Australia but a few things stand out for me from his coaching stint.
1 - He talks way too much in homilies and generalities
2 - There is way too much mollycoddling of the Australian players
3 - People seemed to be sold on this idea that getting clarke and mickey out of the system was the tonic to turn things around: and why wouldn't you feel that way, when all the players themselves (Mitch J, Watson) talk about the 'toxic' atmosphere. So you got the feeling that Lehmann felt pretty happy with those two wins in England - and his role there being allowing the guys to be themselves.
4 - He seems unable and unwilling to read the riot act to his team. (maybe he does behind closed doors)

So, all in all, he just seems like one the company guys afflicted by the group think that affects the rest of cricket australia: pontificating about doing away with the toss, cheering on the existing somewhat meager talent is on display, and part of a process where everything except the bottomline seems to matter.

Maybe, its all premature to bring this up and tomorrow will be a different story, but I think its time for Boof and Sutherland to go.
4 -

Boof was brought in to be the antidote to the management-speak approach of Mickey Arthur.

The problem is, for the first half of his tenure he had Mitch Johnson and Ryan Harris to win series for him. But when Harris retired that started to crack, and when the horrible flat home wickets then drove Mitch into premature retirement he found himself in a much less promising position.

The last sentence of today's presser was the most significant, I thought. He commented on how the selectors hadn't misled Mitch Marsh into feeling he was going to be given one more Test. But then he added that the players might not feel the same way.

Which tells me that Boof did not want to lose Mitch Marsh, and feels undermined, and is letting on that the dressing room is unhappy, as indeed it was when they were 60 all out at Trent Bridge 15 months ago, when Peter Nevill was preferred to the available-again Brad Haddin.

I think that the dressing room is demoralised and angry.

 

[Pete Rose]

Boof was brought in to be the antidote to the management-speak approach of Mickey Arthur.

The problem is, for the first half of his tenure he had Mitch Johnson and Ryan Harris to win series for him. But when Harris retired that started to crack, and when the horrible flat home wickets then drove Mitch into premature retirement he found himself in a much less promising position.

The last sentence of today's presser was the most significant, I thought. He commented on how the selectors hadn't misled Mitch Marsh into feeling he was going to be given one more Test. But then he added that the players might not feel the same way.

Which tells me that Boof did not want to lose Mitch Marsh, and feels undermined, and is letting on that the dressing room is unhappy, as indeed it was when they were 60 all out at Trent Bridge 15 months ago, when Peter Nevill was preferred to the available-again Brad Haddin.

I think that the dressing room is demoralised and angry.

Yeah, but you know the issue was not just management speak. People seem fixated by the idea that all Arthur did was assign homework during his tenure. There were press reports out during Australia's tour of India that the senior guys in the team were more interested in lapping up the opportunities that come with being a visiting Australian cricketer in India these days.
It is clear that if you speak to the players they say the Arthur and Clarke didn't quite give a very welcoming atmosphere.
So one year later we are in a situation that the results are just as poor as they were while in India. And I dont think Boof getting along with the players, is going to solve this malaise.

Of course he could be hoping that let these Saffers go and come Pakistan we will recover our pride.

 

[Hasan123]

Got to feel for Steve Smith,captaining a very poor Australian team other Warner,Hazelwood,Starc,and Lyon. Lots of players out of form and some not good enough

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] deserves a bit more respect around here, much of what he has said in terms of AUS conditions and squad-members/team-balance required down under have been spot on. He has spent a fair amount of his life in AUS and attends games regularly over there as well

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] deserves a bit more respect around here, much of what he has said in terms of AUS conditions and squad-members/team-balance required down under have been spot on. He has spent a fair amount of his life in AUS and attends games regularly over there as well

I have a tried and tested method.

First, I steal [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]'s ideas (like Jason Behrendorff with the pink ball).

Second, I annoy everyone at home by watching cricket across all time zones.

Third, I steal the ideas I get from reading players' and coaches' books.

I don't think I've ever had an original idea in my life. I stole the idea of 3 bowlers plus 2 all-rounders straight from Mickey Arthur's autbiography, for example.

The only thing that is original in my posts is the provocation. I figure I might as well be thought-provoking.

On that subject, four years ago over the space of two months in South Africa we saw that Quinton De Kock, Ehsan Adil and Usman Qadir were the outstanding Under-19 cricketers of their generation.

Looks like Pakistan doesn't groom young talent like the Saffas do!

 

[Abdullah719]

On that subject, four years ago over the space of two months in South Africa we saw that Quinton De Kock, Ehsan Adil and Usman Qadir were the outstanding Under-19 cricketers of their generation.

Looks like Pakistan doesn't groom young talent like the Saffas do!

There's definitely been improvement in this regard after Arthur's become coach - Babar Azam, Sami Aslam and Mohammad Nawaz are all majorly involved for Pakistan across formats and they were a big part of the 2012 U19 side.

 

[Junaids]

There's definitely been improvement in this regard after Arthur's become coach - Babar Azam, Sami Aslam and Mohammad Nawaz are all majorly involved for Pakistan across formats and they were a big part of the 2012 U19 side.

Really good point.

I get really upset at the failure to groom Usman Qadir at First Class level. I think he had the ability to be Imran Tahir or Adil Rashid quality with the ball, but a genuine Test Number 6 batsman who specialised in non-Asian conditions.

I wish the PCB had a development squad in domestic First Class cricket in which Under 23 internationals played together.

 

[Adijazz1706]

why wasn't Steyn dropped?

Exactly, Steyn was rubbish in that game as he usually is in LOIs.

 

[MMHS]

SAF need to take as much lead as possible - preferably 200+. I think, Aussies will bat much better in 2nd innings while Vernon won't be that effective on day 3 wicket.

In Philander, Maharaj & Abbot, they have a decent tail - one of these 2 at wicket need to get a big one, preferably 100. The way their bowlers are collapsing, need to make it 2-0 before the D/N Test.

Really impressed the way they raised their game at the absence of their best 2 batsman & bowler.

 

[Dark Magician]

I agree with all those points, believe it or not!



Dale Steyn was a great limited overs player for a long time, but when he started to lose his pace he really became a pretty marginal LOI players.

Part of my argument for pragmatism is that it often does the non-white players a disservice when they are selected when they shouldn't be. Philander has had a wonderful Test career, and didn't really deserve to be singled out for the World Cup defeat. Not in terms of his performance, but in terms of how he caused Kyle Abbott to lose his place.

He was singled out because of people like yourself saying what you've said here. There's absolutely no Country in the world that would allow the status qou to remain the way it was. But according to you any efforts to ensure equal representation is reverse racism? Steyn and De Kock had a **** world cup. Why are you not calling them qouta players?

 

[Dark Magician]

After our Alviro Petersen discussion, you'd better check out the awful news coming out these last 10 minutes. It's so sad.
[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] ?

Alviro is an idiot if he did do what they said he did. If he did he must be punished harshly.

 

[Dark Magician]

I have a tried and tested method.

First, I steal [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]'s ideas (like Jason Behrendorff with the pink ball).

Second, I annoy everyone at home by watching cricket across all time zones.

Third, I steal the ideas I get from reading players' and coaches' books.
I don't think I've ever had an original idea in my life. I stole the idea of 3 bowlers plus 2 all-rounders straight from Mickey Arthur's autbiography, for example.

The only thing that is original in my posts is the provocation. I figure I might as well be thought-provoking.

On that subject, four years ago over the space of two months in South Africa we saw that Quinton De Kock, Ehsan Adil and Usman Qadir were the outstanding Under-19 cricketers of their generation.

Looks like Pakistan doesn't groom young talent like the Saffas do!

Except for height what exactly does Adil add into the mix. Saw him once and wasn't convinced. He looked like a tall Venkatesh Prasad...

 

[Dark Magician]

SAF need to take as much lead as possible - preferably 200+. I think, Aussies will bat much better in 2nd innings while Vernon won't be that effective on day 3 wicket.

In Philander, Maharaj & Abbot, they have a decent tail - one of these 2 at wicket need to get a big one, preferably 100. The way their bowlers are collapsing, need to make it 2-0 before the D/N Test.

Really impressed the way they raised their game at the absence of their best 2 batsman & bowler.

Not many people seem to realise that Philander starting his career batting at 6 or 7 in the Western Province line up. He has a highest score of over 150 batting at 6 i recall. He's no tail-ender. Same with Abbott, he's underperformed with the bat. He was a competent number 8 at franchise level before his bowling improved.

 

[Pete Rose]

Or maybe the players are not good enough? Added to **** team selection and it's all unravelling pretty fast.

That may be true. But I don't see a lot of fight in the current lot. That could have something to the fact that across the three formats, CA is happy to send second string teams to compete with international ones. If players get called up the national team easily, it diminishes the value of the baggy green

 

[soso_killer]

Yes, it's fabulous.

But it's horrible that they even get called quota players. Rabada would be worth a place whatever colour he was, and Bavuma is reaching that level too.

The sad thing is that, like in Zimbabwe, most black kids never see a televised game of cricket.

Where do you get these statements from? Seriously.
You need to stop spreading propaganda as fact. It's very poor coming from a senior poster.
How the moderators allow such in accuracy and wild speculation and theories on a regular basis is disappointing.

 

[MenInG]

Where do you get these statements from? Seriously.
You need to stop spreading propaganda as fact. It's very poor coming from a senior poster.
How the moderators allow such in accuracy and wild speculation and theories on a regular basis is disappointing.

What is moderation got to do with it? You read his statement, refute it with your own facts. This is what discussions are made of.

 

[Haroon786]

Stick to the thread topic; any further off topic posts will be removed.

 

[Junaids]

How big a lead do South Africa need?

150 would make life very tough for the Aussies!

 

[soso_killer]

What is moderation got to do with it? You read his statement, refute it with your own facts. This is what discussions are made of.

It's got everything to do IMHO.
Continuously posting inaccurate information and allowed to get away with it doesn't reflect well on this forum, which is the best cricket forum going around.

It's one thing to have an opinion, however when that opinion is challenged with facts that should be the end of it. However we will see that very same opinion regurgitated in a different thread despite being challenged otherwise. That makes engaging in a debate meaningless. Bordering on trolling as well.

A clear example being M. Arthur who resigned of his own accord, but according to Junaid he was fired.

As for the quotas it's disappointing how a sensitive topic can be dealt with so casually. Yes it's not ideal for everyone, and I respect different views. However to label addressing the misdeeds of the past as "reverse racism" is appalling.
CSA had to take an aggressive approach under the mandate of the government due to poor and slow transformation. These institutions were given over twenty years to be inclusive, and failed to do so.
Take Bavuma for example, he would have never been provided the opportunities he's been given under normal circumstances. You want to know why? That's because a black player was deemed as not good enough as a batsman. Players from the black communities were looked upon as bowlers only.

Tsolekile is a good example, he had a mediocre start to his career, but found levels of consistency. He had a period of 5 years where he was among the highest run getters as a WK batsman and clearly the best gloveman in the country. But the likes of AB bullied the management and denied him that opportunity. So Bavuma like Tsolekile would have rotted in domestic circuit because of a stereotypical mentality such as "blacks don't like cricket!", "black players are mainly bowlers" etc.
It's these insensitive comments which make me not want participate on this forum any longer.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It's got everything to do IMHO.
Continuously posting inaccurate information and allowed to get away with it doesn't reflect well on this forum, which is the best cricket forum going around.

It's one thing to have an opinion, however when that opinion is challenged with facts that should be the end of it. However we will see that very same opinion regurgitated in a different thread despite being challenged otherwise. That makes engaging in a debate meaningless. Bordering on trolling as well.

A clear example being M. Arthur who resigned of his own accord, but according to Junaid he was fired.

As for the quotas it's disappointing how a sensitive topic can be dealt with so casually. Yes it's not ideal for everyone, and I respect different views. However to label addressing the misdeeds of the past as "reverse racism" is appalling.
CSA had to take an aggressive approach under the mandate of the government due to poor and slow transformation. These institutions were given over twenty years to be inclusive, and failed to do so.
Take Bavuma for example, he would have never been provided the opportunities he's been given under normal circumstances. You want to know why? That's because a black player was deemed as not good enough as a batsman. Players from the black communities were looked upon as bowlers only.

Tsolekile is a good example, he had a mediocre start to his career, but found levels of consistency. He had a period of 5 years where he was among the highest run getters as a WK batsman and clearly the best gloveman in the country. But the likes of AB bullied the management and denied him that opportunity. So Bavuma like Tsolekile would have rotted in domestic circuit because of a stereotypical mentality such as "blacks don't like cricket!", "black players are mainly bowlers" etc.
It's these insensitive comments which make me not want participate on this forum any longer.

Can you explain that bro? Curious.

Also...maybe you are really angry so when you calm down, you can see its just a forum. Indians and Pakistanis fight brutally in the Time Pass section. Or used to a while back.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Boss, I think a lot of things that you say about South Africa (regarding TV viewership, socio-economic condition of townships) were facts, may be 30 years back, may be even in 90s; but I am sure things have changed there. After all, it's their (Black South African) country & since Mandela, they have their Government for over 2 decades now. It can't be that a countries' 85% people will be living underprivileged like this with their own Govt. & in a growing economy. Even, if Cricket is in pay channels, I am sure there are enough non white families now who can afford that - may be the interest is not there. Like in USA, there are enough solvent black family now, but how many golfers or tennis players coming from black community? Even Woods or Williams sisters couldn't make that happen - here in Canada, black kids hardly bothers for Ice Hockey, it's all about Basketball & those who are not physically suitable for basketball, goes to Soccer or baseball.

I am sure the popularity of Cricket among black majority is growing there & that's essential as well. A sports can't survive in a country without mass participation of 85% majority. And, I am sure that's the same in Mughabe's Zimboks as well - I see lots of black kids in their stadium, therefore Cricket is not a monopoly to the whites only there either.